Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?

[rab2591]

So, yes, Joe Thomas wrote the outro to Sunshine, but Brian Wilson brought him to the place where he could create that.

Yeah, I don't know about that... I think what brought Joe Thomas to the place where he could create that was that Brian Wilson wasn't writing the material needed for the album.

Actually I don’t believe it was Joe who wrote that section from Sunshine, but some other songwriter.

Also, Joe himself said that he records Brian at the piano (he has countless hours of this) and Joe picks out sections that blow his mind, and from there they work on this stuff. Not to say that Joe doesn’t write chords for some songs, but Brian is far more involved in the chords than you guys think. The life suite was all Brian’s chords and ideas, iirc. Whereas ‘The Last Song’ chords were written by Joe and the melody/harmonies by Brian. It goes both ways.

Again, Brian took chords and riffs straight from Chuck Berry at the start of his career, so this is nothing new to Brian. When he hears a good idea he rolls with it - and the attention to detail on an album like NPP really lets you know how involved Brian is with these songs, whether or not he wrote the chords for certain songs.

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

So, yes, Joe Thomas wrote the outro to Sunshine, but Brian Wilson brought him to the place where he could create that.

Yeah, I don't know about that... I think what brought Joe Thomas to the place where he could create that was that Brian Wilson wasn't writing the material needed for the album.

Actually I don’t believe it was Joe who wrote that section from Sunshine, but some other songwriter.

Also, Joe himself said that he records Brian at the piano (he has countless hours of this) and Joe picks out sections that blow his mind, and from there they work on this stuff. Not to say that Joe doesn’t write chords for some songs, but Brian is far more involved in the chords than you guys think. The life suite was all Brian’s chords and ideas, iirc. Whereas ‘The Last Song’ chords were written by Joe and the melody/harmonies by Brian. It goes both ways.

Again, Brian took chords and riffs straight from Chuck Berry at the start of his career, so this is nothing new to Brian. When he hears a good idea he rolls with it - and the attention to detail on an album like NPP really lets you know how involved Brian is with these songs, whether or not he wrote the chords for certain songs.

I've heard the countless hours of piano thing also. It'still Joe Thomas choosing the chord sequences to work on though, and I can tell from his choices that what blows his mind and what blows my mind are a country singer's mullet length apart!

I feel I can quantify to some extent what I love about Brian's music the most, (chord sequence, arrangements), and I can hear when it's there or not in a recording. However much I can objectify it though, someone else may hear something completely different, or love someting completely different about Brian's music,  so it's all subjective in the end.

I love reading about someone enthuse over Brian's music, and conversely am comfortable with a Mike's Beard type critique.  I've spent years analysing music, which is important, but sometimes you can't beat a passionate response,  however it manifests itself.

It's strange I know, but I got a lot more pleasure out of reading what people wrote about TWGMTR and NPP than I did out of listening to them. I'm genuinely happy people still love what Brian is releasing, even if my jaded ears are non plussd. I wish the guy nothing but the best, and he has my upmost respect.

[rab2591]

He called up and said I’ve got some ideas for some new Beach Boys songs, and I said, That’s great, and I pointed out to him that when we worked together several years ago he had the genesis of some other Beach Boy songs that he had never really wanted to put on any of his solo records. That he had isolated specifically for the Beach Boys. So he asked me to compile those and it was more than a few. It turned out to be about 80 hours worth of tapes of him playing songs. Fortunately I was just the lucky guy to be able to remember to press the red button, you know?

So this suite was a series of maybe one or two minute vignettes that he had like 15 of them that he would start and never finish. When I put them together on ProTools, it was eerie to me that they all fit together. It was like, wow. This song was written a year before the song that followed it, but yet they fit completely perfectly: modulation, key move, the whole thing. Then Brian started assembling these little bits and I kind of dreamed… I was 10 years old when Smile was recorded, but I kind of dreamed that was how that happened. I have no special authority to tell you that’s how it did. It just seemed like all these little pieces became like this theme, and instead of being Americana or whatever Smile was, it was his drive down Pacific Coast Highway.

So according to Joe, Brian assembled these pieces for the life suite. There are definite chord sequences done by Brian, and these sequences were assembled with other sequences. I’m not judging you or anyone who doesn’t like this latest work. I’m just trying to make sure the facts are out there regarding the songwriting process (as Kreen is intentionally trying to paint a very vapid broad brush stroke about Brian’s songwriting with Joe).

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

He called up and said I’ve got some ideas for some new Beach Boys songs, and I said, That’s great, and I pointed out to him that when we worked together several years ago he had the genesis of some other Beach Boy songs that he had never really wanted to put on any of his solo records. That he had isolated specifically for the Beach Boys. So he asked me to compile those and it was more than a few. It turned out to be about 80 hours worth of tapes of him playing songs. Fortunately I was just the lucky guy to be able to remember to press the red button, you know?

So this suite was a series of maybe one or two minute vignettes that he had like 15 of them that he would start and never finish. When I put them together on ProTools, it was eerie to me that they all fit together. It was like, wow. This song was written a year before the song that followed it, but yet they fit completely perfectly: modulation, key move, the whole thing. Then Brian started assembling these little bits and I kind of dreamed… I was 10 years old when Smile was recorded, but I kind of dreamed that was how that happened. I have no special authority to tell you that’s how it did. It just seemed like all these little pieces became like this theme, and instead of being Americana or whatever Smile was, it was his drive down Pacific Coast Highway.

So according to Joe, Brian assembled these pieces for the life suite. There are definite chord sequences done by Brian, and these sequences were assembled with other sequences. I’m not judging you or anyone who doesn’t like this latest work. I’m just trying to make sure the facts are out there regarding the songwriting process (as Kreen is intentionally trying to paint a very vapid broad brush stroke about Brian’s songwriting with Joe).

Yes and yes. The chord sequence to the title track of TWGMTR is also very noteworthy. 

I've done a lot of soul searching as to why I don't enjoy these albums. The analysis offered above about chords and arrangements is certainly true. I also find sme of Joe's production techniques not to my taste,  (that is putting it politely).

 There is also an emotional aspect to it though. Having waited 10 years for another album from Brian, when I heard Imagination I felt bitterly disappointed and let down. This is for the reasons I've given.  As awful  as it sounds I felt let down by Brian, in whom I had invested so much (obsession wise). This is of course a ridiculous attitude, but if I'm honest,  since then I've been predisposed not to like anything Joe Thomas has a hand in. I always give it a listen, and every so often I'll try it again. I can never get into those albums though.

And that is what this thread seems to be about, for me anyway. Questioning this hero worship. It does matter to some people, me included, if Brian wrote something or not. It shouldn't matter, but it does.

That genius label is a tough thing to carry. People expect too much from the guy.

[rab2591]

He called up and said I’ve got some ideas for some new Beach Boys songs, and I said, That’s great, and I pointed out to him that when we worked together several years ago he had the genesis of some other Beach Boy songs that he had never really wanted to put on any of his solo records. That he had isolated specifically for the Beach Boys. So he asked me to compile those and it was more than a few. It turned out to be about 80 hours worth of tapes of him playing songs. Fortunately I was just the lucky guy to be able to remember to press the red button, you know?

So this suite was a series of maybe one or two minute vignettes that he had like 15 of them that he would start and never finish. When I put them together on ProTools, it was eerie to me that they all fit together. It was like, wow. This song was written a year before the song that followed it, but yet they fit completely perfectly: modulation, key move, the whole thing. Then Brian started assembling these little bits and I kind of dreamed… I was 10 years old when Smile was recorded, but I kind of dreamed that was how that happened. I have no special authority to tell you that’s how it did. It just seemed like all these little pieces became like this theme, and instead of being Americana or whatever Smile was, it was his drive down Pacific Coast Highway.

So according to Joe, Brian assembled these pieces for the life suite. There are definite chord sequences done by Brian, and these sequences were assembled with other sequences. I’m not judging you or anyone who doesn’t like this latest work. I’m just trying to make sure the facts are out there regarding the songwriting process (as Kreen is intentionally trying to paint a very vapid broad brush stroke about Brian’s songwriting with Joe).

Yes and yes. The chord sequence to the title track of TWGMTR is also very noteworthy. 

I've done a lot of soul searching as to why I don't enjoy these albums. The analysis offered above about chords and arrangements is certainly true. I also find sme of Joe's production techniques not to my taste,  (that is putting it politely).

 There is also an emotional aspect to it though. Having waited 10 years for another album from Brian, when I heard Imagination I felt bitterly disappointed and let down. This is for the reasons I've given.  As awful  as it sounds I felt let down by Brian, in whom I had invested so much (obsession wise). This is of course a ridiculous attitude, but if I'm honest,  since then I've been predisposed not to like anything Joe Thomas has a hand in. I always give it a listen, and every so often I'll try it again. I can never get into those albums though.

And that is what this thread seems to be about, for me anyway. Questioning this hero worship. It does matter to some people, me included, if Brian wrote something or not. It shouldn't matter, but it does.

That genius label is a tough thing to carry. People expect too much from the guy.

No matter what I will still have the utmost respect for Brian as a songwriter. As I say, there are so many examples of him using other people’s ideas (whether by inspiration, straight plagiarizing haha, or using direct ideas from other musicians/songwriters) all throughout his career and it should be nothing surprising for his solo career. I really used to have this same attitude...As I say, I felt really disappointed when I found out about the coda to ‘Sunshine’, but that was because I had a false idea of how he writes songs.

These days, after reading and hearing the facts from people like Joe Thomas or Ray Lawlor (and after studying more about his songwriting process his entire career), I am really content with my understanding of his modern day songwriting. Even if it doesn’t perfectly emulate how he wrote songs in the 60s, Brian is still there with his brain going full speed when it comes to writing and arranging songs.

[KDS]

I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation. 

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

In reply to Rab.

I quite agree, and as I said earlier, he's earned the right to work how he pleases. I'm not expecting another 'Love You'.  T'would  be awesome if he did it though.

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation. 

Now that kind of thing I don't get

But when you're a Wagnerite like me you need to let stuff like that go.

[KDS]

I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation. 

Now that kind of thing I don't get

But when you're a Wagnerite like me you need to let stuff like that go.

I kinda get it, especially since the Bennett incident was so recent.  But, I just listened to the album the other night, and I've done so several times since the incident, and while I won't even try to defend Scott's actions because they're beyond defending, it doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the album. 

Same can be said for the works of, say, Phil Spector, Vince Neil, Jim Gordon (the session musician, not the fictional police commissioner), Ozzy Osbourne, etc etc. 

[HeyJude]

I usually get nervous trying to parse out who wrote what in a multi-writer collaboration, especially when there's usually scant information or evidence.

Occasionally, it's quite clear, usually when it's two separate songs smushed together and there are individual demos of the two individual parts (e.g. Badfinger's "Without You").

But when two writers sit down and bat stuff around, it's never crystal clear.

We end up just listening to the stuff and deciding whether it "sounds like" Brian or whatever. There's no question that a lot of stuff on TLOS sounds much less Brian-ish compared to, say, "Message Man." Does that mean Bennett wrote all of the stuff? Maybe, maybe not. My position would be that if you think something sounds like Bennett wrote it and Brian didn't, then does it really matter whether that's actually true? If it's Brian writing and sounding more like Bennett, what does that change?

Which gets us back to what I've often said - it's about the songs. Good songs make a good album. My obvious preference wouldn't be for Brian or the BBs to record an entire album of newly-outsourced songwriting from vapid for-hire writers or something. Luckily, we've never had something that extreme (the closest example of this would be Mike's "Looking Back With Love" solo album, which has mostly outside writers and only a few covers).

But if something sounds good, I don't care too much who wrote it. Or rather, I'm happy to learn who wrote it. But I'm not going to like a lyric less if Mike wrote it instead of Brian, or a song less if Joe Thomas wrote it instead of Brian.

There's a very small select group of people who seem to be able to collaborate on projects with Brian and keep the thing rolling and productive. TLOS was one of those examples. Let us not forget that several other instances resulted in mediocre material and largely non-release (Gary Usher '86 sessions) or good material but still mostly non-release (mid-90s Paley material). What has seen release? Multiple projects with Joe Thomas, and TLOS with Bennett having a large hand.

Many of the other fruitful Brian solo albums done without a collaborator were cases of mostly cover versions (Gershwin, Disney), re-recording old released and unreleased songs (Live at the Roxy, Gettin' in Over My Head, Smile).

The albums that are at least mostly "original" material with a least some relatively newly-written stfuff are BW '88, Imagination, and No Pier Pressure. The latter two have heavy Joe Thomas involvement (especially on the writing side), and BW '88 also had outside writers and a co-producer on most of the tracks.

Some of my favorite Brian songs from his solo albums are songs he probably didn't have much of a hand in. "Let It Shine" sounds like mostly Jeff Lynne (and I know Lynne's work well, the composition *and* production are textbook late 80s Lynne), and it's one of my favorite Brian tracks.

Having said all of that (apologies for the stream of consciousness), I *love* the pure Brian stuff and I think an *amazing* idea would be to have a full album of just Brian and a piano. Some editing and comping of takes would be fine. But even if "Message Man" isn't musically the most interesting thing in the world, I think an album full of stuff like that would be great.

[Jay]

I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm. 

[the captain]

I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm. 

I'm 100% behind you. (So hopefully you'll absorb most of the rocks.)

[KDS]

I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm. 

I agree with you, and I think TLOS is Brian's best solo album, and the best BB related album since Holland.   And One Kind of Love is also one of the highlights on NPP.  So, you're 100% right that it's a shame that we'll never see another Wilson/Bennett collaboration.

[SMiLE Brian]

I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm. 

I'm 100% behind you. (So hopefully you'll absorb most of the rocks.)

I'm going to getcha back of you....

[Jay]

I didn't think anybody would actually agree with me. Ok, let's step it up a notch. When Scott is released, should he and and Brian work again? Or should Brian distance himself as much as possible from  Scott?

[HeyJude]

I didn't think anybody would actually agree with me. Ok, let's step it up a notch. When Scott is released, should he and and Brian work again? Or should Brian distance himself as much as possible from  Scott?

Not happening. Even if in some bizarro scenario he was exonerated, I don't think we'd ever see him work with Brian in any capacity.

Brian's 75 years old now anyway and Bennett might be indisposed for several more years, so I don't think Brian's going to need an epic, longform, busy collaboration anyway.

Some of the TLOS is good; but it's not as if it's a huge tragic loss that we won't see more collaborations. Brian has enough stuff written with Joe Thomas and Andy Paley in the vault (to say nothing of whatever else is out there that we don't even know about) that's probably better anyway.

[SMiLE Brian]

Tony Asher....

[rab2591]

TLOS isn’t my favorite BW solo album, but I am beyond grateful for Scott’s work with Brian...his one collaboration with Brian on NPP is one of my favorite BW solo songs. So honestly his recent brush with the law sucks and perhaps he shouldn’t work with Brian again. But the work he did shouldn’t be diminished because of a terrible act he committed. It’s like I love Spector’s work and don’t think any less of it because he murdered someone - as horrible as that incident was.

[GhostyTMRS]

For what it's worth, when I interviewed Brian about the album he said he bought Louis Armstrong's recording of "That Lucky Old Sun" at a record store, learned it and then taught it to his band which indicates to me that he was hot on the idea of recording it and I would assume he was responsible for that intro as well as the rest of the arrangement.

I'm more interested in exactly what Jon Bon Jovi contributed to "Summer's Gone" to receive a writing credit on that. Presumably he had a hand in the lyrics but the lyrics to "Summer's Gone" are so effective because they're so simple. Did it really take three guys to write that? Was it merely a case of "Hey, Jon's in the studio next door and he contributed the word "gone" so let's give him a credit and we can say we've got Jon Bon Jovi on the record" or was his contribution much more substantial?   

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm more interested in exactly what Jon Bon Jovi contributed to "Summer's Gone" to receive a writing credit on that. Presumably he had a hand in the lyrics but the lyrics to "Summer's Gone" are so effective because they're so simple. Did it really take three guys to write that? Was it merely a case of "Hey, Jon's in the studio next door and he contributed the word "gone" so let's give him a credit and we can say we've got Jon Bon Jovi on the record" or was his contribution much more substantial?   

I wonder if Mike threw out all of his (surely massive) collection of Bon Jovi albums out of frustration when he found out that people not named Mike Love co-wrote a new Beach Boys song with "Summer" in the title.

Slippery Wheeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn Wet

[KDS]

I didn't think anybody would actually agree with me. Ok, let's step it up a notch. When Scott is released, should he and and Brian work again? Or should Brian distance himself as much as possible from  Scott?

I don't think so. 

On NPP, Brian proved that there's plenty in the well without Scott's contributions (outside of OKOL). 

[felipe]

I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation.

nothing to do with the crime. I fear because that section is to me the main proof in recent years that Brian "still has it". Without that my case turns pretty bad though.
"Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl" is revolting.

[c-man]

For what it's worth, when I interviewed Brian about the album he said he bought Louis Armstrong's recording of "That Lucky Old Sun" at a record store, learned it and then taught it to his band which indicates to me that he was hot on the idea of recording it and I would assume he was responsible for that intro as well as the rest of the arrangement.

I'm more interested in exactly what Jon Bon Jovi contributed to "Summer's Gone" to receive a writing credit on that. Presumably he had a hand in the lyrics but the lyrics to "Summer's Gone" are so effective because they're so simple. Did it really take three guys to write that? Was it merely a case of "Hey, Jon's in the studio next door and he contributed the word "gone" so let's give him a credit and we can say we've got Jon Bon Jovi on the record" or was his contribution much more substantial?   

From what I've read, Bon Jovi was visiting the studio during the TWGMTR sessions, and finished the partially-written lyrics, especially in the verses.

[pixletwin]

I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm. 

Count me in on being stones. I agree with you. 

[MatchPoint]

I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm. 

What a bummer. This is why they say it's better not to know your heroes. I'd extend that to artists in general. While I'd hesitate to ever praise Scott as a person I do think he should be recognized for his musical contributions.