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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: felipe on August 18, 2017, 06:47:39 PM



Title: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: felipe on August 18, 2017, 06:47:39 PM
Brian or Scott Bennet? I think it's the best thing on the album, but I fear it was written by Scott, because on the demo he sings all the voices...


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: rab2591 on August 19, 2017, 04:58:49 AM
In the Joe Thomas interview from a couple years ago, Joe tells a story about ‘Think About The Days’ - Brian wrote all the vocal parts but the demo was done all by Jeff Foskett (as Brian couldn’t hit some of the high notes, so why not just have Jeff do the whole thing). I’m not sure at all the same thing happened for this intro, but I wouldn’t be surprised.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: the captain on August 19, 2017, 07:02:55 AM
Brian or Scott Bennet? I think it's the best thing on the album, but I fear it was written by Scott, because on the demo he sings all the voices...

Why would you fear it was written by Scott? If you think it's the best thing on the album, why aren't you just glad someone wrote it? The result is good or bad regardless of its author, and who its author was shouldn't impact your opinion of the work.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: rab2591 on August 19, 2017, 08:04:25 AM
Brian or Scott Bennet? I think it's the best thing on the album, but I fear it was written by Scott, because on the demo he sings all the voices...

Why would you fear it was written by Scott? If you think it's the best thing on the album, why aren't you just glad someone wrote it? The result is good or bad regardless of its author, and who its author was shouldn't impact your opinion of the work.

I gotta say, I felt fairly sad when I first found out the outro to ‘Sunshine’ wasn’t a Brian Wilson creation. But years since learning this I’m just glad Brian heard a great idea and wanted to add it to his album...it’s a great little outro no matter who came up with it. One thing that helped me realize I shouldn’t feel weird about Brian using other people’s ideas was learning about Brian’s recording style over the years: one of his first hits he kinda took an exact copy of a song from Chuck Berry, and there are plenty of other instances of Brian using other people’s ideas. It’s just part of his style.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: the captain on August 19, 2017, 08:57:05 AM
I think it's natural to want to make superheroes and supervillains out of people we like or don't like, but if you step back, it is a little silly and unreasonable. Once Brian is a genius, you want all Beach Boys/BW-affiliated genius to be his, you know? But it is irrelevant, really, if your main objective is finding great music to enjoy (as opposed to finding a god to worship).


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 19, 2017, 09:33:51 AM
Agreed, that is really well said Captain. Be a fan of BW for what he did (f*** ton of material) than trying to invent more stuff.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on August 19, 2017, 10:08:09 AM
Agreed, that is really well said Captain. Be a fan of BW for what he did (f*** ton of material) than trying to invent more stuff.

Yeah, and besides, we all know deep down that myKe luHv wrote it, right?  ;)


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: the captain on August 19, 2017, 10:36:10 AM
Agreed, that is really well said Captain. Be a fan of BW for what he did (f*** ton of material) than trying to invent more stuff.

Yeah, and besides, we all know deep down that myKe luHv wrote it, right?  ;)

Would've been 25% better  :lol


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 19, 2017, 10:38:53 AM
It's a 25 percent thang! :lol


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: The LEGENDARY OSD on August 19, 2017, 10:39:57 AM
Agreed, that is really well said Captain. Be a fan of BW for what he did (f*** ton of material) than trying to invent more stuff.

Yeah, and besides, we all know deep down that myKe luHv wrote it, right?  ;)

Would've been 25% better  :lol

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol (good one Cap!!)


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 19, 2017, 11:40:51 AM
The Captain is the god of SS humor! :lol


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: the captain on August 19, 2017, 11:44:01 AM
Then it may disappoint you to learn I didn't write the vocal intro to TLOS.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 19, 2017, 11:46:29 AM
Did you ghost write SIP in 1992 then?


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: the captain on August 19, 2017, 11:59:05 AM
Did you ghost write SIP in 1992 then?

What kind of god do you take me for?


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 19, 2017, 12:02:14 PM
Loki of Norse tradition....


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Wirestone on August 19, 2017, 01:18:15 PM
At one point, it was widely speculated that Scott had written Southern California because he sang it on the demos (which I believe leaked before the finished album did). That wasn't true either. What Brian did write, without a doubt, was the TLOS round, which you can hear only at a low volume at the end of the album, and is a pure wall of wacky BW. They performed it as a separate song at some concerts.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 19, 2017, 01:20:22 PM
Wow, is there a clip of that?


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Wirestone on August 19, 2017, 01:41:15 PM
Wow, is there a clip of that?

IIRC, they would do it in the first set as a little teaser for the full performance of the album in the second set. So not more than 30 second to a minute. But still, a cool little thing.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: c-man on August 19, 2017, 02:03:55 PM
In the Joe Thomas interview from a couple years ago, Joe tells a story about ‘Think About The Days’ - Brian wrote all the vocal parts but the demo was done all by Jeff Foskett (as Brian couldn’t hit some of the high notes, so why not just have Jeff do the whole thing). I’m not sure at all the same thing happened for this intro, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

Was that in ESQ, or somewhere else? Would love to read the whole thing (if I haven't already and simply forgotten about it...)


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Dove Nested Towers on August 19, 2017, 02:23:30 PM
Did you ghost write SIP in 1992 then?

What kind of god do you take me for?

If you are indeed a God of humor then why don't you try to come up with some Al/Sal/Pete/Libueno ideas to jump-start the moribund Jardine thread, in honor of Zeppo Wilson (not to mention Gummo). It's silly but there's great opportunity for creativity there, although it requires a certain type. But I digress.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: kreen on August 19, 2017, 08:49:51 PM
Honestly, I just assume that Scott Bennett wrote all of the music on the album; that way, I can only be pleasantly surprised if it turns out Brian actually wrote some of it.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Dove Nested Towers on August 19, 2017, 09:40:56 PM
Honestly, I just assume that Scott Bennett wrote all of the music on the album; that way, I can only be pleasantly surprised if it turns out Brian actually wrote some of it.

It's a patronizing oversimplification to criticize people's motives in wanting Brian to have composed a particular piece of music. It's not just shallow hero worship and idolatry, it goes to a more profound issue of having faith in and deriving pleasure from the creativity of someone important to you, that you identify with. If one discovers that one's favorite musical piece in an album was in fact written by someone else. it can be disillusioning or at least disappointing, although hopefully one can enjoy it just the same for what it is, whoever composed it. I'm like that with Midnight's Another Day from the album, it would be inspiring to think that BW was capable of writing something that good by himself at this point in his life, although I know that's probably not possible.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: BJL on August 20, 2017, 07:21:40 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that an artist like Brian elevates the people around them. Brian got the best performances out of his session musicians and background singers, the best lyrics out of his partners, etc. His creativity and enthusiasm for other peoples ideas brings out the best in the people who work with him. So, yes, Joe Thomas wrote the outro to Sunshine, but Brian Wilson brought him to the place where he could create that.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: kreen on August 20, 2017, 10:57:06 PM
So, yes, Joe Thomas wrote the outro to Sunshine, but Brian Wilson brought him to the place where he could create that.

Yeah, I don't know about that... I think what brought Joe Thomas to the place where he could create that was that Brian Wilson wasn't writing the material needed for the album.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on August 21, 2017, 01:24:40 AM
As Joe Thomas stated around the time of NPP, their main composing method now consists of Joe writing the chord sequences, and Brian supplying the melody.

The main thing that has always drawn me to Brian's music is his chord sequences, so learning this little nugget of information explained and justified why Imagination, TWGMTR and NPP leave me cold. There is nothing in those albums which have what I love about Brian's music in them. No chord sequences which leave me spinning in dizziness, no left field yet supremely logical arrangements. Just the boring MOR stamp of Joe Thomas over them.

But I don't mind this. I'm happy Brian is creating music still which people love. At this stage in his career he has earned the right to work in any damn way he pleases. He owes me nothing.

I don't know what the working method was with Scott on TLOS. There was the video of Scott at the piano. Brian seemed to know the chord he was after, but it was down to Scott to find it. So perhaps Scott acted as somewhere betwen a transcriber and interpreter. Whatever the method, there is more 'Brian Wilson' on this album than anything else he's done recently.  To my ears anyway.

The Christmas album I love though. Listen to those arrangements. Brian's all over that baby.

My personal opinion is this. And I know people will disagree........but.......

 I think Brian still has his musical chops. Like in the '71 Surf's Up sessions, if he hears something he'll come running down those stairs to input his spark.

And it'll be great.

But do all the work for Brian, let him stay up in bed creatively as Joe Thomas seems to do, and Brian will take the path of least resistance.

Brian,  you stay in bed all you like my friend, you gave us a lifetime of music in ten short (infinite) years.



Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: rab2591 on August 21, 2017, 02:24:42 AM
So, yes, Joe Thomas wrote the outro to Sunshine, but Brian Wilson brought him to the place where he could create that.

Yeah, I don't know about that... I think what brought Joe Thomas to the place where he could create that was that Brian Wilson wasn't writing the material needed for the album.

Actually I don’t believe it was Joe who wrote that section from Sunshine, but some other songwriter.

Also, Joe himself said that he records Brian at the piano (he has countless hours of this) and Joe picks out sections that blow his mind, and from there they work on this stuff. Not to say that Joe doesn’t write chords for some songs, but Brian is far more involved in the chords than you guys think. The life suite was all Brian’s chords and ideas, iirc. Whereas ‘The Last Song’ chords were written by Joe and the melody/harmonies by Brian. It goes both ways.

Again, Brian took chords and riffs straight from Chuck Berry at the start of his career, so this is nothing new to Brian. When he hears a good idea he rolls with it - and the attention to detail on an album like NPP really lets you know how involved Brian is with these songs, whether or not he wrote the chords for certain songs.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on August 21, 2017, 03:32:26 AM
So, yes, Joe Thomas wrote the outro to Sunshine, but Brian Wilson brought him to the place where he could create that.

Yeah, I don't know about that... I think what brought Joe Thomas to the place where he could create that was that Brian Wilson wasn't writing the material needed for the album.

Actually I don’t believe it was Joe who wrote that section from Sunshine, but some other songwriter.

Also, Joe himself said that he records Brian at the piano (he has countless hours of this) and Joe picks out sections that blow his mind, and from there they work on this stuff. Not to say that Joe doesn’t write chords for some songs, but Brian is far more involved in the chords than you guys think. The life suite was all Brian’s chords and ideas, iirc. Whereas ‘The Last Song’ chords were written by Joe and the melody/harmonies by Brian. It goes both ways.

Again, Brian took chords and riffs straight from Chuck Berry at the start of his career, so this is nothing new to Brian. When he hears a good idea he rolls with it - and the attention to detail on an album like NPP really lets you know how involved Brian is with these songs, whether or not he wrote the chords for certain songs.

I've heard the countless hours of piano thing also. It'still Joe Thomas choosing the chord sequences to work on though, and I can tell from his choices that what blows his mind and what blows my mind are a country singer's mullet length apart!

I feel I can quantify to some extent what I love about Brian's music the most, (chord sequence, arrangements), and I can hear when it's there or not in a recording. However much I can objectify it though, someone else may hear something completely different, or love someting completely different about Brian's music,  so it's all subjective in the end.

I love reading about someone enthuse over Brian's music, and conversely am comfortable with a Mike's Beard type critique.  I've spent years analysing music, which is important, but sometimes you can't beat a passionate response,  however it manifests itself.

It's strange I know, but I got a lot more pleasure out of reading what people wrote about TWGMTR and NPP than I did out of listening to them. I'm genuinely happy people still love what Brian is releasing, even if my jaded ears are non plussd. I wish the guy nothing but the best, and he has my upmost respect.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: rab2591 on August 21, 2017, 07:04:24 AM
Quote
He called up and said I’ve got some ideas for some new Beach Boys songs, and I said, That’s great, and I pointed out to him that when we worked together several years ago he had the genesis of some other Beach Boy songs that he had never really wanted to put on any of his solo records. That he had isolated specifically for the Beach Boys. So he asked me to compile those and it was more than a few. It turned out to be about 80 hours worth of tapes of him playing songs. Fortunately I was just the lucky guy to be able to remember to press the red button, you know?

Quote
So this suite was a series of maybe one or two minute vignettes that he had like 15 of them that he would start and never finish. When I put them together on ProTools, it was eerie to me that they all fit together. It was like, wow. This song was written a year before the song that followed it, but yet they fit completely perfectly: modulation, key move, the whole thing. Then Brian started assembling these little bits and I kind of dreamed… I was 10 years old when Smile was recorded, but I kind of dreamed that was how that happened. I have no special authority to tell you that’s how it did. It just seemed like all these little pieces became like this theme, and instead of being Americana or whatever Smile was, it was his drive down Pacific Coast Highway.

So according to Joe, Brian assembled these pieces for the life suite. There are definite chord sequences done by Brian, and these sequences were assembled with other sequences. I’m not judging you or anyone who doesn’t like this latest work. I’m just trying to make sure the facts are out there regarding the songwriting process (as Kreen is intentionally trying to paint a very vapid broad brush stroke about Brian’s songwriting with Joe).


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on August 21, 2017, 07:34:13 AM
Quote
He called up and said I’ve got some ideas for some new Beach Boys songs, and I said, That’s great, and I pointed out to him that when we worked together several years ago he had the genesis of some other Beach Boy songs that he had never really wanted to put on any of his solo records. That he had isolated specifically for the Beach Boys. So he asked me to compile those and it was more than a few. It turned out to be about 80 hours worth of tapes of him playing songs. Fortunately I was just the lucky guy to be able to remember to press the red button, you know?

Quote
So this suite was a series of maybe one or two minute vignettes that he had like 15 of them that he would start and never finish. When I put them together on ProTools, it was eerie to me that they all fit together. It was like, wow. This song was written a year before the song that followed it, but yet they fit completely perfectly: modulation, key move, the whole thing. Then Brian started assembling these little bits and I kind of dreamed… I was 10 years old when Smile was recorded, but I kind of dreamed that was how that happened. I have no special authority to tell you that’s how it did. It just seemed like all these little pieces became like this theme, and instead of being Americana or whatever Smile was, it was his drive down Pacific Coast Highway.

So according to Joe, Brian assembled these pieces for the life suite. There are definite chord sequences done by Brian, and these sequences were assembled with other sequences. I’m not judging you or anyone who doesn’t like this latest work. I’m just trying to make sure the facts are out there regarding the songwriting process (as Kreen is intentionally trying to paint a very vapid broad brush stroke about Brian’s songwriting with Joe).

Yes and yes. The chord sequence to the title track of TWGMTR is also very noteworthy. 

I've done a lot of soul searching as to why I don't enjoy these albums. The analysis offered above about chords and arrangements is certainly true. I also find sme of Joe's production techniques not to my taste,  (that is putting it politely).

 There is also an emotional aspect to it though. Having waited 10 years for another album from Brian, when I heard Imagination I felt bitterly disappointed and let down. This is for the reasons I've given.  As awful  as it sounds I felt let down by Brian, in whom I had invested so much (obsession wise). This is of course a ridiculous attitude, but if I'm honest,  since then I've been predisposed not to like anything Joe Thomas has a hand in. I always give it a listen, and every so often I'll try it again. I can never get into those albums though.

And that is what this thread seems to be about, for me anyway. Questioning this hero worship. It does matter to some people, me included, if Brian wrote something or not. It shouldn't matter, but it does.

That genius label is a tough thing to carry. People expect too much from the guy.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: rab2591 on August 21, 2017, 07:56:34 AM
Quote
He called up and said I’ve got some ideas for some new Beach Boys songs, and I said, That’s great, and I pointed out to him that when we worked together several years ago he had the genesis of some other Beach Boy songs that he had never really wanted to put on any of his solo records. That he had isolated specifically for the Beach Boys. So he asked me to compile those and it was more than a few. It turned out to be about 80 hours worth of tapes of him playing songs. Fortunately I was just the lucky guy to be able to remember to press the red button, you know?

Quote
So this suite was a series of maybe one or two minute vignettes that he had like 15 of them that he would start and never finish. When I put them together on ProTools, it was eerie to me that they all fit together. It was like, wow. This song was written a year before the song that followed it, but yet they fit completely perfectly: modulation, key move, the whole thing. Then Brian started assembling these little bits and I kind of dreamed… I was 10 years old when Smile was recorded, but I kind of dreamed that was how that happened. I have no special authority to tell you that’s how it did. It just seemed like all these little pieces became like this theme, and instead of being Americana or whatever Smile was, it was his drive down Pacific Coast Highway.

So according to Joe, Brian assembled these pieces for the life suite. There are definite chord sequences done by Brian, and these sequences were assembled with other sequences. I’m not judging you or anyone who doesn’t like this latest work. I’m just trying to make sure the facts are out there regarding the songwriting process (as Kreen is intentionally trying to paint a very vapid broad brush stroke about Brian’s songwriting with Joe).

Yes and yes. The chord sequence to the title track of TWGMTR is also very noteworthy. 

I've done a lot of soul searching as to why I don't enjoy these albums. The analysis offered above about chords and arrangements is certainly true. I also find sme of Joe's production techniques not to my taste,  (that is putting it politely).

 There is also an emotional aspect to it though. Having waited 10 years for another album from Brian, when I heard Imagination I felt bitterly disappointed and let down. This is for the reasons I've given.  As awful  as it sounds I felt let down by Brian, in whom I had invested so much (obsession wise). This is of course a ridiculous attitude, but if I'm honest,  since then I've been predisposed not to like anything Joe Thomas has a hand in. I always give it a listen, and every so often I'll try it again. I can never get into those albums though.

And that is what this thread seems to be about, for me anyway. Questioning this hero worship. It does matter to some people, me included, if Brian wrote something or not. It shouldn't matter, but it does.

That genius label is a tough thing to carry. People expect too much from the guy.

No matter what I will still have the utmost respect for Brian as a songwriter. As I say, there are so many examples of him using other people’s ideas (whether by inspiration, straight plagiarizing haha, or using direct ideas from other musicians/songwriters) all throughout his career and it should be nothing surprising for his solo career. I really used to have this same attitude...As I say, I felt really disappointed when I found out about the coda to ‘Sunshine’, but that was because I had a false idea of how he writes songs.

These days, after reading and hearing the facts from people like Joe Thomas or Ray Lawlor (and after studying more about his songwriting process his entire career), I am really content with my understanding of his modern day songwriting. Even if it doesn’t perfectly emulate how he wrote songs in the 60s, Brian is still there with his brain going full speed when it comes to writing and arranging songs.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 21, 2017, 08:06:35 AM
I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation. 



Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on August 21, 2017, 08:09:45 AM
In reply to Rab.

I quite agree, and as I said earlier, he's earned the right to work how he pleases. I'm not expecting another 'Love You'.  T'would  be awesome if he did it though.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on August 21, 2017, 08:12:45 AM
I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation. 



Now that kind of thing I don't get

But when you're a Wagnerite like me you need to let stuff like that go. :lol


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 21, 2017, 08:17:35 AM
I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation. 



Now that kind of thing I don't get

But when you're a Wagnerite like me you need to let stuff like that go. :lol

I kinda get it, especially since the Bennett incident was so recent.  But, I just listened to the album the other night, and I've done so several times since the incident, and while I won't even try to defend Scott's actions because they're beyond defending, it doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the album. 

Same can be said for the works of, say, Phil Spector, Vince Neil, Jim Gordon (the session musician, not the fictional police commissioner), Ozzy Osbourne, etc etc. 


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: HeyJude on August 21, 2017, 08:43:33 AM
I usually get nervous trying to parse out who wrote what in a multi-writer collaboration, especially when there's usually scant information or evidence.

Occasionally, it's quite clear, usually when it's two separate songs smushed together and there are individual demos of the two individual parts (e.g. Badfinger's "Without You").

But when two writers sit down and bat stuff around, it's never crystal clear.

We end up just listening to the stuff and deciding whether it "sounds like" Brian or whatever. There's no question that a lot of stuff on TLOS sounds much less Brian-ish compared to, say, "Message Man." Does that mean Bennett wrote all of the stuff? Maybe, maybe not. My position would be that if you think something sounds like Bennett wrote it and Brian didn't, then does it really matter whether that's actually true? If it's Brian writing and sounding more like Bennett, what does that change?

Which gets us back to what I've often said - it's about the songs. Good songs make a good album. My obvious preference wouldn't be for Brian or the BBs to record an entire album of newly-outsourced songwriting from vapid for-hire writers or something. Luckily, we've never had something that extreme (the closest example of this would be Mike's "Looking Back With Love" solo album, which has mostly outside writers and only a few covers).

But if something sounds good, I don't care too much who wrote it. Or rather, I'm happy to learn who wrote it. But I'm not going to like a lyric less if Mike wrote it instead of Brian, or a song less if Joe Thomas wrote it instead of Brian.

There's a very small select group of people who seem to be able to collaborate on projects with Brian and keep the thing rolling and productive. TLOS was one of those examples. Let us not forget that several other instances resulted in mediocre material and largely non-release (Gary Usher '86 sessions) or good material but still mostly non-release (mid-90s Paley material). What has seen release? Multiple projects with Joe Thomas, and TLOS with Bennett having a large hand.

Many of the other fruitful Brian solo albums done without a collaborator were cases of mostly cover versions (Gershwin, Disney), re-recording old released and unreleased songs (Live at the Roxy, Gettin' in Over My Head, Smile).

The albums that are at least mostly "original" material with a least some relatively newly-written stfuff are BW '88, Imagination, and No Pier Pressure. The latter two have heavy Joe Thomas involvement (especially on the writing side), and BW '88 also had outside writers and a co-producer on most of the tracks.

Some of my favorite Brian songs from his solo albums are songs he probably didn't have much of a hand in. "Let It Shine" sounds like mostly Jeff Lynne (and I know Lynne's work well, the composition *and* production are textbook late 80s Lynne), and it's one of my favorite Brian tracks.

Having said all of that (apologies for the stream of consciousness), I *love* the pure Brian stuff and I think an *amazing* idea would be to have a full album of just Brian and a piano. Some editing and comping of takes would be fine. But even if "Message Man" isn't musically the most interesting thing in the world, I think an album full of stuff like that would be great.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Jay on August 21, 2017, 11:34:32 AM
I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm.  ;D


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: the captain on August 21, 2017, 11:40:50 AM
I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm.  ;D

I'm 100% behind you. (So hopefully you'll absorb most of the rocks.)


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 21, 2017, 11:52:03 AM
I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm.  ;D

I agree with you, and I think TLOS is Brian's best solo album, and the best BB related album since Holland.   And One Kind of Love is also one of the highlights on NPP.  So, you're 100% right that it's a shame that we'll never see another Wilson/Bennett collaboration.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 21, 2017, 12:13:45 PM
I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm.  ;D

I'm 100% behind you. (So hopefully you'll absorb most of the rocks.)
I'm going to getcha back of you....


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Jay on August 21, 2017, 01:09:45 PM
I didn't think anybody would actually agree with me. Ok, let's step it up a notch. When Scott is released, should he and and Brian work again? Or should Brian distance himself as much as possible from  Scott?


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: HeyJude on August 21, 2017, 01:33:46 PM
I didn't think anybody would actually agree with me. Ok, let's step it up a notch. When Scott is released, should he and and Brian work again? Or should Brian distance himself as much as possible from  Scott?

Not happening. Even if in some bizarro scenario he was exonerated, I don't think we'd ever see him work with Brian in any capacity.

Brian's 75 years old now anyway and Bennett might be indisposed for several more years, so I don't think Brian's going to need an epic, longform, busy collaboration anyway.

Some of the TLOS is good; but it's not as if it's a huge tragic loss that we won't see more collaborations. Brian has enough stuff written with Joe Thomas and Andy Paley in the vault (to say nothing of whatever else is out there that we don't even know about) that's probably better anyway.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 21, 2017, 01:50:46 PM
Tony Asher.... :hat


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: rab2591 on August 21, 2017, 02:56:08 PM
TLOS isn’t my favorite BW solo album, but I am beyond grateful for Scott’s work with Brian...his one collaboration with Brian on NPP is one of my favorite BW solo songs. So honestly his recent brush with the law sucks and perhaps he shouldn’t work with Brian again. But the work he did shouldn’t be diminished because of a terrible act he committed. It’s like I love Spector’s work and don’t think any less of it because he murdered someone - as horrible as that incident was.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: GhostyTMRS on August 21, 2017, 03:08:10 PM
For what it's worth, when I interviewed Brian about the album he said he bought Louis Armstrong's recording of "That Lucky Old Sun" at a record store, learned it and then taught it to his band which indicates to me that he was hot on the idea of recording it and I would assume he was responsible for that intro as well as the rest of the arrangement.

I'm more interested in exactly what Jon Bon Jovi contributed to "Summer's Gone" to receive a writing credit on that. Presumably he had a hand in the lyrics but the lyrics to "Summer's Gone" are so effective because they're so simple. Did it really take three guys to write that? Was it merely a case of "Hey, Jon's in the studio next door and he contributed the word "gone" so let's give him a credit and we can say we've got Jon Bon Jovi on the record" or was his contribution much more substantial?   


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on August 21, 2017, 03:13:40 PM


I'm more interested in exactly what Jon Bon Jovi contributed to "Summer's Gone" to receive a writing credit on that. Presumably he had a hand in the lyrics but the lyrics to "Summer's Gone" are so effective because they're so simple. Did it really take three guys to write that? Was it merely a case of "Hey, Jon's in the studio next door and he contributed the word "gone" so let's give him a credit and we can say we've got Jon Bon Jovi on the record" or was his contribution much more substantial?   

I wonder if Mike threw out all of his (surely massive) collection of Bon Jovi albums out of frustration when he found out that people not named Mike Love co-wrote a new Beach Boys song with "Summer" in the title.

Slippery Wheeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn Wet


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 22, 2017, 05:14:13 AM
I didn't think anybody would actually agree with me. Ok, let's step it up a notch. When Scott is released, should he and and Brian work again? Or should Brian distance himself as much as possible from  Scott?

I don't think so. 

On NPP, Brian proved that there's plenty in the well without Scott's contributions (outside of OKOL). 


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: felipe on August 25, 2017, 09:27:03 PM
I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation.
nothing to do with the crime. I fear because that section is to me the main proof in recent years that Brian "still has it". Without that my case turns pretty bad though.
"Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl" is revolting.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: c-man on August 26, 2017, 07:25:30 AM
For what it's worth, when I interviewed Brian about the album he said he bought Louis Armstrong's recording of "That Lucky Old Sun" at a record store, learned it and then taught it to his band which indicates to me that he was hot on the idea of recording it and I would assume he was responsible for that intro as well as the rest of the arrangement.

I'm more interested in exactly what Jon Bon Jovi contributed to "Summer's Gone" to receive a writing credit on that. Presumably he had a hand in the lyrics but the lyrics to "Summer's Gone" are so effective because they're so simple. Did it really take three guys to write that? Was it merely a case of "Hey, Jon's in the studio next door and he contributed the word "gone" so let's give him a credit and we can say we've got Jon Bon Jovi on the record" or was his contribution much more substantial?   

From what I've read, Bon Jovi was visiting the studio during the TWGMTR sessions, and finished the partially-written lyrics, especially in the verses.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: pixletwin on August 26, 2017, 08:01:27 AM
I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm.  ;D

Count me in on being stones. I agree with you.  :lol


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: MatchPoint on August 26, 2017, 08:24:50 AM
I'm going to put my butt on the line here. I think that Brian and Scott made a good collaboration team. If Midnight's Another Day(and most of the TLOS album) is a good indication, then he brought out the best of Brian. When the news about Scott surfaced I was a bit bummed out because I knew they would never work again. You may now commence with the rock throwing, and your regularly scheduled sh*t storm.  ;D

What a bummer. This is why they say it's better not to know your heroes. I'd extend that to artists in general. While I'd hesitate to ever praise Scott as a person I do think he should be recognized for his musical contributions.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 28, 2017, 08:45:42 AM
I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation.
nothing to do with the crime. I fear because that section is to me the main proof in recent years that Brian "still has it". Without that my case turns pretty bad though.
"Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl" is revolting.

I'm actually a fan of Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl.

And if Brian no longer "has it" at the advanced stage in his career, and needs help from outside collaborators, I don't have a problem with that.  Heck, even at it's peak, BW's solo career doesn't come close to his Beach Boys peak anyway IMHO.  But, it's better to enjoy it for what it is than lament what it isn't. 


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Lonely Summer on August 28, 2017, 08:50:40 PM
I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation.
nothing to do with the crime. I fear because that section is to me the main proof in recent years that Brian "still has it". Without that my case turns pretty bad though.
"Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl" is revolting.

I'm actually a fan of Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl.

And if Brian no longer "has it" at the advanced stage in his career, and needs help from outside collaborators, I don't have a problem with that.  Heck, even at it's peak, BW's solo career doesn't come close to his Beach Boys peak anyway IMHO.  But, it's better to enjoy it for what it is than lament what it isn't. 
Exactly.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: kreen on August 28, 2017, 09:32:48 PM
I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation.
nothing to do with the crime. I fear because that section is to me the main proof in recent years that Brian "still has it". Without that my case turns pretty bad though.
"Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl" is revolting.

I'm actually a fan of Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl.

And if Brian no longer "has it" at the advanced stage in his career, and needs help from outside collaborators, I don't have a problem with that.  Heck, even at it's peak, BW's solo career doesn't come close to his Beach Boys peak anyway IMHO.  But, it's better to enjoy it for what it is than lament what it isn't. 

I agree with this: music is music, so better to have a BW album with outside songwriting than no album at all. But I also care about historical truth and truth in advertising.

Paul McCartney is as old as BW, and I don't think he has his producer play chords so he can write melodies on top. I think this business of Joe Thomas playing chords is PR for: "BW can't write songs anymore, so I play songs for him in the studio, and whatever he contributes, no matter how small, is considered a co-write".

I mean, if Brian Wilson is still able to write quality material like TLOS on his keyboard and bring his demos to his team, then why would he need Joe Thomas to play chords for him? He can play the chords himself, which must be 100 times more effective than this tag team business. And if Joe Thomas can come up with chord sequences that bring out all of those songs, surely he can write songs himself, which he would then bring to BW mostly complete.

Add to that that a lot of BW songs on his solo records don't sound like anything he's ever written before, that there's a lot of remakes, cover versions and rewritten outtakes from previois decades, and that it is known he was struggling to write as far back as the 1988 solo record, and TLOS sounds all the more like a Scott Bennett record with BW vocals. Otherwise it's a true miracle.



Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: kreen on August 28, 2017, 09:57:21 PM
From the just-released RS interview :

"I haven't written a song in five years," Wilson says, then lets out two Donald Duck–like quacks. "All outta tunes. But I think I'm getting ready to write."

So who wrote the songs on NPP?


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on August 28, 2017, 10:21:49 PM
From the just-released RS interview :

"I haven't written a song in five years," Wilson says, then lets out two Donald Duck–like quacks. "All outta tunes. But I think I'm getting ready to write."

So who wrote the songs on NPP?

You should go back and read up on the history of those songs on NPP, there have been discussions and interviews about where they came from and how they were written posted here.

Consider too that 5 years = 2012 = C50. It's well known that Brian was working on original songs for the Beach Boys to sing and play on what was hoped to be a follow up album to TWGMTR with the same original C50 and TWGMTR lineup, but Mike put the kibosh on all that and bailed. So some of the songs slated for the Beach Boys became Brian solo songs instead.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on August 29, 2017, 02:24:09 AM
From people I've spoken to who know Brian, an overriding fact emerges. It's not really hidden, it's there for all to see.

Brian will take the path of least resistance if left to his own devices. If left alone he is lazy, and why not? He's more than earned that right. Brian is not controlled by anyone, but sometimes he needs nudging into action by people who know it's good for his mental state to be productive.

I beleive that Brian is still more than capable of writing music. If he is writing songs with someone who writes the chords for him, then he is taking the path of least resistance, and that person is enabling him to be lazy. If that person is cherry picking ideas from hours of Brian noodling on the piano, then we  are getting that persons vision of Brian Wilson.

For me, the chord sequences and arrangements are what defines a great piece by Wilson. Nothing on the Joe Thomas trilogy jumps out and screams Brian Wilson to me.  Even the remakes and rehashes on Imagination are let down by the horrible Thomas arrangements and insipid production. Didn't Brian himself say in his book he didn't like Imagination and it didn't represent him musically, or words along those lines?

So why the hell did he start working with him again? (Rhetorical question, I know the c50 story)
 
I have strong feelings about his work with Joe Thomas, as you can probably see :lol



Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 29, 2017, 05:32:40 AM
I think the OP's "fear" that Scott Bennett wrote the intro to TLOS has more to do with recent events with Scott Bennett than any kind of hero worship of Brian Wilson.  At least, that was my interpretation.
nothing to do with the crime. I fear because that section is to me the main proof in recent years that Brian "still has it". Without that my case turns pretty bad though.
"Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl" is revolting.

I'm actually a fan of Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl.

And if Brian no longer "has it" at the advanced stage in his career, and needs help from outside collaborators, I don't have a problem with that.  Heck, even at it's peak, BW's solo career doesn't come close to his Beach Boys peak anyway IMHO.  But, it's better to enjoy it for what it is than lament what it isn't. 

I agree with this: music is music, so better to have a BW album with outside songwriting than no album at all. But I also care about historical truth and truth in advertising.

Paul McCartney is as old as BW, and I don't think he has his producer play chords so he can write melodies on top. I think this business of Joe Thomas playing chords is PR for: "BW can't write songs anymore, so I play songs for him in the studio, and whatever he contributes, no matter how small, is considered a co-write".

I mean, if Brian Wilson is still able to write quality material like TLOS on his keyboard and bring his demos to his team, then why would he need Joe Thomas to play chords for him? He can play the chords himself, which must be 100 times more effective than this tag team business. And if Joe Thomas can come up with chord sequences that bring out all of those songs, surely he can write songs himself, which he would then bring to BW mostly complete.

Add to that that a lot of BW songs on his solo records don't sound like anything he's ever written before, that there's a lot of remakes, cover versions and rewritten outtakes from previois decades, and that it is known he was struggling to write as far back as the 1988 solo record, and TLOS sounds all the more like a Scott Bennett record with BW vocals. Otherwise it's a true miracle.



Frankly, I think Paul could use a good collaborator. 


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on August 29, 2017, 05:42:12 AM
He had one back in the 60's didn't he? That whatzisname.......


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 29, 2017, 06:02:36 AM
He had one back in the 60's didn't he? That whatzisname.......

Exactly, and that material is why Paul is still playing big time venues in 2017. 

Paul's got a great touring band.  I would think that Brian, Rusty, Abe, or Wix could help knock out a few solid tracks.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: HeyJude on August 29, 2017, 06:47:07 AM
He had one back in the 60's didn't he? That whatzisname.......

Exactly, and that material is why Paul is still playing big time venues in 2017. 

Paul's got a great touring band.  I would think that Brian, Rusty, Abe, or Wix could help knock out a few solid tracks.

If you haven't already, check out Howie Edelson's "Fabcast", and in particular their episode with Mark Lewisohn. Rather than squeezing Lewisohn for the same old 60s Beatles trivia, Lewisohn participates in a discussion focusing on McCartney's work in the 80s and in particular his work with Elvis Costello circa 1987.

In the back and forth, they delve into some excellent stuff as far as explaining why, whether we like it or not, McCartney for the most part *can't* bring himself to have an equal 50/50 (in terms of control/gravitas, etc.) collaboration with another writer whose name isn't John Lennon.

The McCartney/Costello stuff is amazing; mind-blowing stuff. But even in that case it was stunted because McCartney for a variety of reasons couldn't make it a true equal-footing collaboration. Other than essentially (arguably) selling out and doing something like the Kanye collaboration stuff like "FourFiveSeconds" where he cedes a ton of control in exchange for "cred" with the young folks, I don't think McCartney has been able to have a true "equal" collaboration on a long-term basis over the course of an album.

You'd think even with his own (relative) contemporaries he'd try something out. Think about how mind-blowing it would have been (or maybes still could be) to have Paul actually *write* stuff with, say, Jeff Lynne.

As for Brian, I think Jeff Lynne would be a great choice to co-produce (and maybe even do some co-writing). Other than something like that, I think the best course for a new Brian album is for someone to take old (and new) Brian tracks, have Brian pound them out solo on piano and do some solid takes, structure the sessions, and just record Brian doing an album of "Message Man" type stuff and put that out. In other words, the exact opposite production-wise of something like "A Friend Like You" (which is a good song, even with sappy lyrics, bogged down by an over-produced track).


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 29, 2017, 06:55:31 AM
He had one back in the 60's didn't he? That whatzisname.......

Exactly, and that material is why Paul is still playing big time venues in 2017. 

Paul's got a great touring band.  I would think that Brian, Rusty, Abe, or Wix could help knock out a few solid tracks.

If you haven't already, check out Howie Edelson's "Fabcast", and in particular their episode with Mark Lewisohn. Rather than squeezing Lewisohn for the same old 60s Beatles trivia, Lewisohn participates in a discussion focusing on McCartney's work in the 80s and in particular his work with Elvis Costello circa 1987.

In the back and forth, they delve into some excellent stuff as far as explaining why, whether we like it or not, McCartney for the most part *can't* bring himself to have an equal 50/50 (in terms of control/gravitas, etc.) collaboration with another writer whose name isn't John Lennon.

The McCartney/Costello stuff is amazing; mind-blowing stuff. But even in that case it was stunted because McCartney for a variety of reasons couldn't make it a true equal-footing collaboration. Other than essentially (arguably) selling out and doing something like the Kanye collaboration stuff like "FourFiveSeconds" where he cedes a ton of control in exchange for "cred" with the young folks, I don't think McCartney has been able to have a true "equal" collaboration on a long-term basis over the course of an album.

You'd think even with his own (relative) contemporaries he'd try something out. Think about how mind-blowing it would have been (or maybes still could be) to have Paul actually *write* stuff with, say, Jeff Lynne.

As for Brian, I think Jeff Lynne would be a great choice to co-produce (and maybe even do some co-writing). Other than something like that, I think the best course for a new Brian album is for someone to take old (and new) Brian tracks, have Brian pound them out solo on piano and do some solid takes, structure the sessions, and just record Brian doing an album of "Message Man" type stuff and put that out. In other words, the exact opposite production-wise of something like "A Friend Like You" (which is a good song, even with sappy lyrics, bogged down by an over-produced track).

I'd love to hear a Brian Wilson  / Jeff Lynne project. 

Speaking of Lynne, I wonder if Jeff co(ghost) wrote any of Paul's Flaming Pie album (which is IMO one of Paul's best solo albums). 

Even if Paul doesn't write with anyone else, I'd at least like to hear him use his band more in the studio, rather than have Paul keep trying to recapture the feel of McCartney I by playing everything himself. 


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on August 29, 2017, 07:48:28 AM
Paul's a micromanager. It's just not in his nature to collaborate like that.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 29, 2017, 08:32:25 AM
Paul's a micromanager. It's just not in his nature to collaborate like that.

And his solo albums are poorer for that IMO. 


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: HeyJude on August 29, 2017, 08:33:32 AM
I'd love to hear a Brian Wilson  / Jeff Lynne project. 

Speaking of Lynne, I wonder if Jeff co(ghost) wrote any of Paul's Flaming Pie album (which is IMO one of Paul's best solo albums). 

Even if Paul doesn't write with anyone else, I'd at least like to hear him use his band more in the studio, rather than have Paul keep trying to recapture the feel of McCartney I by playing everything himself. 

I don't think Lynne had any significant hand in writing anything with McCartney (though he probably should have been given songwriting credit on the "jam" track "Really Love You" recorded by Paul, Ringo, and Jeff, where Paul gave Ringo a co-writing credit for simply being on the jam).

I think McCartney brought that stuff in pretty fully-formed and was looking for Lynne to be very much in the "producer" role as he had been on the "Threetles" tracks.

That McCartney worked with Lynne at all was pretty surprising and mind-blowing at that time; Lynne had been very much a "George" guy (and by association Ringo as well), doing "Cloud Nine" and the Wilburys stuff, etc. Indeed, McCartney would go on to describe that he was apprehensive about working with Lynne on the reunion tracks, telling Lynne "you've got a sound." I'm sure, much like the BBs with C50, the "Threetles" sessions were about political concessions. Paul was able to bring in Geoff Emerick (who I don't think Harrison was a huge fan of) to engineer, and Harrison brought in Jeff Lynne to produce and to be the "modern" guy with George Martin bowing out (whether by choice or not).

It's a testament to how much these guys like what Lynne brought to the table that McCartney went from "meh, I dunno, Jeff Lynne is a "Harrison" guy" to having Lynne work on his own solo stuff on "Flaming Pie" (I always wondered what Harrison thought about Paul utilizing Jeff Lynne for his solo stuff). But even then on the 8 (9 including a b-side) tracks Lynne did with Paul for "Flaming Pie", there was a control/politics aspect to it. Lynne is barely seen in the accompanying "In the World Tonight" documentary on the album and is never mentioned or named. Also, some tracks have the production credits as "Paul/Jeff" while others are "Jeff/Paul", meaning Paul actually parsed which songs had more or less of Lynne's production contributions.

Now, one *very* sketchy fan theory/rumor that would involve a McCartney/Lynne collaboration is that the rumored-but-may-have-never-existed aborted McCartney/Harrison collaboration from the mid 90s titled "All for Love" was "given" to Jeff Lynne with Lynne re-working it as "Just for Love" on his 2001 ELO "Zoom" album. Quite far fetched in my opinion that McCartney would take something as precious as that sort of track, even if aborted, and just give it to someone else.

Back again to Brian, I think Lynne would be a sympathetic producer and collaborator and would be something *just different enough* to have something both fresh and new but also familiar from Brian. I like that Howie Edelson mentioned to Brian in a recent interview from the last year or so that he thought Brian should work with Lynne again.

Also noteworthy that Brian has an affinity for "Let It Shine" to the point of putting it on his upcoming solo anthology; this in contrast to what I heard from one "researcher" who claimed Brian *hated* the song back when it was put out in 1988.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: HeyJude on August 29, 2017, 08:36:15 AM
Paul's a micromanager. It's just not in his nature to collaborate like that.

And his solo albums are poorer for that IMO. 

I think McCartney is willing to cede plenty of control *sometimes* at least when it comes to production; witness how he has had co-producers if not full outside production on most of his output post-1980. He of course had Nigel Godrich on board who infamously was not afraid to tell Paul some songs sucked.

It's probably more in that sense, in an organizational and sort of "A&R" mode that Brian could use a similar sort of partner. Someone who *isn't* involved in the writing but still gives advice on what sucks and what's good. Someone who, for instance, would have told him some of the stuff on "Gettin' in Over My Head" was sub-par.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on August 29, 2017, 08:49:43 AM
Paul's a micromanager. It's just not in his nature to collaborate like that.

And his solo albums are poorer for that IMO. 

The grass is always greener. For a long time people were saying that Brian would make better albums if he was just allowed to do his own thing without others meddling. With Paul, they say that he would be better if he had more people meddling. Who knows?

They've been saying that about Paul incidentally since the time of McCartney and Ram. Both George and Ringo criticized those albums and laid the fault mostly on the fact that he refused to have a sounding board. Now, in retrospect, those albums are regarded as small triumphs. Would those albums be better had he collaborated? Maybe -- but they also wouldn't be McCartney and Ram as we know them.

I'm not comparing McCartney's recent efforts to those albums, by the way, but I also don't think McCartney's solo career has been any worse than most of his contemporaries. His flaw, I think, has been less about being a micromanager and more about wanting to make relevant music in a world that he doesn't fully understand anymore. The peers of his that have done better, like Neil Young and Bob Dylan, have been a bit more self-indulgent and that has served them better in the long run.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 29, 2017, 08:54:44 AM
Paul's a micromanager. It's just not in his nature to collaborate like that.

And his solo albums are poorer for that IMO. 

The grass is always greener. For a long time people were saying that Brian would make better albums if he was just allowed to do his own thing without others meddling. With Paul, they say that he would be better if he had more people meddling. Who knows?

They've been saying that about Paul incidentally since the time of McCartney and Ram. Both George and Ringo criticized those albums and laid the fault mostly on the fact that he refused to have a sounding board. Now, in retrospect, those albums are regarded as small triumphs. Would those albums be better had he collaborated? Maybe -- but they also wouldn't be McCartney and Ram as we know them.

I'm not comparing McCartney's recent efforts to those albums, by the way, but I also don't think McCartney's solo career has been any worse than most of his contemporaries. His flaw, I think, has been less about being a micromanager and more about wanting to make relevant music in a world that he doesn't fully understand anymore. The peers of his that have done better, like Neil Young and Bob Dylan, have been a bit more self-indulgent and that has served them better in the long run.

Taken as a whole, I think Paul's solo career is pretty good. 

But, if you take the last 25-30 years or so, there's been a drop off in quality IMO.  Whereas, Brian's solo releases, particularly in the last ten years, have been pretty solid. 


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on August 29, 2017, 09:17:12 AM
I think McCartney is willing to cede plenty of control *sometimes* at least when it comes to production; witness how he has had co-producers if not full outside production on most of his output post-1980. He of course had Nigel Godrich on board who infamously was not afraid to tell Paul some songs sucked.

He is, yes. As Mark Lewisohn says in that podcast you referenced, though, nothing really goes out there with Paul's name on it that he doesn't want going out, which I agree is something quite different but nevertheless speaks to his desire to control everything. I do still think that Paul wants to have the final word and that doesn't quite work in a true collaborative relationship. But this is pretty much what you already know.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on August 29, 2017, 09:18:22 AM
Brian doesn't need Jeff Lynne to produce a record. Lynne is a master producer, of course, and I dearly love and have been influenced by the music he made, but his production mindset isn't the same as Brian's. That's about all I can say unless anyone wants to discuss more details on that.

The trap that seems to exist in any legacy artist especially those from the 60's is that many have a fantasy of them cutting records "like they did in the old days", like a vintage time warp back to 1966. many have tried, and tried very hard to get every detail right down to using vintage guitar cables and patch cords for fucks sake, but does it ever work? Is there ever anything close to the records being copied?

My dream Brian Wilson project is to let Brian do what he wants to do, cut some tracks, and I'll listen.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on August 29, 2017, 09:26:38 AM
Paul's a micromanager. It's just not in his nature to collaborate like that.

And his solo albums are poorer for that IMO. 

The grass is always greener. For a long time people were saying that Brian would make better albums if he was just allowed to do his own thing without others meddling. With Paul, they say that he would be better if he had more people meddling. Who knows?

They've been saying that about Paul incidentally since the time of McCartney and Ram. Both George and Ringo criticized those albums and laid the fault mostly on the fact that he refused to have a sounding board. Now, in retrospect, those albums are regarded as small triumphs. Would those albums be better had he collaborated? Maybe -- but they also wouldn't be McCartney and Ram as we know them.

I'm not comparing McCartney's recent efforts to those albums, by the way, but I also don't think McCartney's solo career has been any worse than most of his contemporaries. His flaw, I think, has been less about being a micromanager and more about wanting to make relevant music in a world that he doesn't fully understand anymore. The peers of his that have done better, like Neil Young and Bob Dylan, have been a bit more self-indulgent and that has served them better in the long run.

Taken as a whole, I think Paul's solo career is pretty good. 

But, if you take the last 25-30 years or so, there's been a drop off in quality IMO.  Whereas, Brian's solo releases, particularly in the last ten years, have been pretty solid. 

Hmmm...I don't know. Yes, I agree McCartney's quality over the last 30 years is not what it was before that but I would say that is true of most artists from his generation.

And in my view, Brian's triumph in the last 20 years has been his touring rather than his recording output (much like Paul), with perhaps BWPS (and the subsequent recording) as the ultimate culmination of that. As far as original material being recorded, I do think that Brian has one great album which is That Lucky Old Sun, which is a very good album but in my view doesn't reach the level of Brian's 60s output, which is absolutely fine because, as with McCartney, he set the bar really high that no one else could really live up to. As far as more recent work from his contemporaries, I do think that say Love & Theft and Greendale are stronger as artistic statements but TLOS is still a very good accomplishment. But I don't think I would necessarily position Brian's solo work from 1988 to present as necessarily superior to McCartney's work from the same time frame.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 29, 2017, 09:32:14 AM
Paul's a micromanager. It's just not in his nature to collaborate like that.

And his solo albums are poorer for that IMO. 

The grass is always greener. For a long time people were saying that Brian would make better albums if he was just allowed to do his own thing without others meddling. With Paul, they say that he would be better if he had more people meddling. Who knows?

They've been saying that about Paul incidentally since the time of McCartney and Ram. Both George and Ringo criticized those albums and laid the fault mostly on the fact that he refused to have a sounding board. Now, in retrospect, those albums are regarded as small triumphs. Would those albums be better had he collaborated? Maybe -- but they also wouldn't be McCartney and Ram as we know them.

I'm not comparing McCartney's recent efforts to those albums, by the way, but I also don't think McCartney's solo career has been any worse than most of his contemporaries. His flaw, I think, has been less about being a micromanager and more about wanting to make relevant music in a world that he doesn't fully understand anymore. The peers of his that have done better, like Neil Young and Bob Dylan, have been a bit more self-indulgent and that has served them better in the long run.

Taken as a whole, I think Paul's solo career is pretty good. 

But, if you take the last 25-30 years or so, there's been a drop off in quality IMO.  Whereas, Brian's solo releases, particularly in the last ten years, have been pretty solid. 

Hmmm...I don't know. Yes, I agree McCartney's quality over the last 30 years is not what it was before that but I would say that is true of most artists from his generation.

And in my view, Brian's triumph in the last 20 years has been his touring rather than his recording output (much like Paul), with perhaps BWPS (and the subsequent recording) as the ultimate culmination of that. As far as original material being recorded, I do think that Brian has one great album which is That Lucky Old Sun, which is a very good album but in my view doesn't reach the level of Brian's 60s output, which is absolutely fine because, as with McCartney, he set the bar really high that no one else could really live up to. As far as more recent work from his contemporaries, I do think that say Love & Theft and Greendale are stronger as artistic statements but TLOS is still a very good accomplishment. But I don't think I would necessarily position Brian's solo work from 1988 to present as necessarily superior to McCartney's work from the same time frame.

I would really have to think about the last 30 years of BW v Macca.  BW has some long gaps in there that doesn't help. 

I was talking more about BW's output over the last decade.  Just my opinion, but there's the stellar TLOS album.  The acclaimed Gershwin album.  TWGMTR, which is, IMO, the best BB album since Holland.  And the mostly very good NPP album. 

So, over the last decade, BW is trending up.  Meanwhile, Macca is IMO, going through the motions with lacklustre albums and baffling collaborations with Kanye West and Rihanna. 


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on August 29, 2017, 09:41:00 AM
I would really have to think about the last 30 years of BW v Macca.  BW has some long gaps in there that doesn't help. 

I was talking more about BW's output over the last decade.  Just my opinion, but there's the stellar TLOS album.  The acclaimed Gershwin album.  TWGMTR, which is, IMO, the best BB album since Holland.  And the mostly very good NPP album. 

So, over the last decade, BW is trending up.  Meanwhile, Macca is IMO, going through the motions with lacklustre albums and baffling collaborations with Kanye West and Rihanna. 

I wasn't even thinking of TWGMTR which, I agree, was good. Was it significantly better than McCartney's New? I might say better but not significantly better.

Can't comment on NPP but the fact that I have never been able to get through the album suggests that I don't consider it with much fondness.

So again, I might suggest that in the last ten years of original material, Lucky Old Sun, TWGMTR, and NPP vs. Memory Almost Full and New. The quality of the former is better than the latter but I would say only slightly. But that's just my personal opinion.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 29, 2017, 09:45:56 AM
I would really have to think about the last 30 years of BW v Macca.  BW has some long gaps in there that doesn't help. 

I was talking more about BW's output over the last decade.  Just my opinion, but there's the stellar TLOS album.  The acclaimed Gershwin album.  TWGMTR, which is, IMO, the best BB album since Holland.  And the mostly very good NPP album. 

So, over the last decade, BW is trending up.  Meanwhile, Macca is IMO, going through the motions with lacklustre albums and baffling collaborations with Kanye West and Rihanna. 

I wasn't even thinking of TWGMTR which, I agree, was good. Was it significantly better than McCartney's New? I might say better but not significantly better.

Can't comment on NPP but the fact that I have never been able to get through the album suggests that I don't consider it with much fondness.

So again, I might suggest that in the last ten years of original material, Lucky Old Sun, TWGMTR, and NPP vs. Memory Almost Full and New. The quality of the former is better than the latter but I would say only slightly. But that's just my personal opinion.

I don't think I ever listened to New from start to finish.  I kinda gave up on buying new McCartney albums after Memory Almost Full.  I think I listened to 5-6 songs from New online, but they didn't make me want to check out more.  Then, there's the Kanye West thing.  I'll listen to Runaway Dancer a dozen times before listening to that one once more. 



Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Lonely Summer on August 29, 2017, 10:59:29 PM
The sad truth is, Brian has been very dry as a writer since TLOS. And when was the last album of all new material before that? Imagination? I'm not a fan of Macca's recent works, but he never stops cranking them out. I think Brian is more like a guy like John Fogerty or John Sebastian. He had one period where the musical ideas were just flowing out of him. Then there came a time when it just stopped. Most of his solo career has been re-recordings of older songs, or special projects like the Gershwin album. Record labels keep signing him up, hoping for a return of the 63-67 Brian. Then the collaborators are brought in, believing they can bring back the magic.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on August 30, 2017, 12:17:54 AM


My dream Brian Wilson project is to let Brian do what he wants to do, cut some tracks, and I'll listen.

Absolutely. And  Brian did that with the Paley sessions, nixed by Carl of all people. The unfortunate truth is, if Brian were to do that now, someone would decide it wasn't up to par, or this bit or that bit needed changing. Everyone, (myself included) has their own idea of what a Brian Wilson record ought to sound.

And he is at the moment working with people who think the perfect Brian Wilson project should be just that, perfect.

Whereas to me, I want the  Brian who knew the 'perfect take' could well be riddled with imperfections. I want the guy who goes on feel. On instinct.

I'm happy he's still putting stuff out, but I would be ecstatic to get an undoctored, warts n all recording actually arranged and produced by Brian. I'm not holding my breath.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 30, 2017, 07:10:53 AM
The sad truth is, Brian has been very dry as a writer since TLOS. And when was the last album of all new material before that? Imagination? I'm not a fan of Macca's recent works, but he never stops cranking them out. I think Brian is more like a guy like John Fogerty or John Sebastian. He had one period where the musical ideas were just flowing out of him. Then there came a time when it just stopped. Most of his solo career has been re-recordings of older songs, or special projects like the Gershwin album. Record labels keep signing him up, hoping for a return of the 63-67 Brian. Then the collaborators are brought in, believing they can bring back the magic.

Well, there was also GIOMH, which wasn't too great.  Outside of some moments of inspiration, I think Brian's solo career (I'm lumping in TWGMTR as well) has been a mostly pleasant, middle of the road, listening experience. 


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: HeyJude on August 30, 2017, 09:08:51 AM
I think McCartney is willing to cede plenty of control *sometimes* at least when it comes to production; witness how he has had co-producers if not full outside production on most of his output post-1980. He of course had Nigel Godrich on board who infamously was not afraid to tell Paul some songs sucked.

He is, yes. As Mark Lewisohn says in that podcast you referenced, though, nothing really goes out there with Paul's name on it that he doesn't want going out, which I agree is something quite different but nevertheless speaks to his desire to control everything. I do still think that Paul wants to have the final word and that doesn't quite work in a true collaborative relationship. But this is pretty much what you already know.

It's definitely true that, like most artists including the BB's, McCartney has (and certainly *should* have) final say on what goes out. But signing off on something is a more passive action than refusing to cede control at earlier, "creating" stage of the music-making process. On rare occasions, McCartney has seemingly ceded artistic control (e.g. the awful Kanye track), but certainly he still signed off on it and made sure what was put "out there" was what he was okay with.

But generally speaking, he hasn't much sat down and done a lot of 50/50 songwriting/recording collaborations in recent decades, and much at all outside of the early years with Lennon.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: HeyJude on August 30, 2017, 09:15:47 AM
Brian doesn't need Jeff Lynne to produce a record. Lynne is a master producer, of course, and I dearly love and have been influenced by the music he made, but his production mindset isn't the same as Brian's. That's about all I can say unless anyone wants to discuss more details on that.

The trap that seems to exist in any legacy artist especially those from the 60's is that many have a fantasy of them cutting records "like they did in the old days", like a vintage time warp back to 1966. many have tried, and tried very hard to get every detail right down to using vintage guitar cables and patch cords for fucks sake, but does it ever work? Is there ever anything close to the records being copied?

My dream Brian Wilson project is to let Brian do what he wants to do, cut some tracks, and I'll listen.

Most definitely agree that a truly Brian-centric project (meaning something as close as possible to Brian writing everything himself and recording it solo or nearly solo) is my desire as well.

But *if* we had to have a project where a collaborator/co-producer has a heavier hand in the process, Lynne would be my first pick. Yes, it would sound relatively different from Brian solo albums of recent years, especially sonically. It might in some cases, like "Let it Shine", sound like Brian singing a Jeff Lynne record. But I think it could work quite well; Lynne is sympathetic in a way that some other producers might not be. They speak fondly of each other despite a pretty short-term collaboration 30 years ago. Plus a big benefit for Lynne is that he's a singer and musician and songwriter but can give you any artist/producer split that is needed. If you just need a guy "producing" and nothing more, Lynne can do that. If you want some musicianship but not songwriting input, he can do that. If you want more involvement and some backing vocals and stuff, he can do that. If you want to co-write, he can do that. If you want finished songs, he can hand you those too.

But again to reiterate, I'd love a truly all-Brian album with 12 to 15 "Message Man" type tracks.


Title: Re: Who wrote the Lucky Old Sun vocal intro?
Post by: KDS on August 30, 2017, 09:16:20 AM
I think McCartney is willing to cede plenty of control *sometimes* at least when it comes to production; witness how he has had co-producers if not full outside production on most of his output post-1980. He of course had Nigel Godrich on board who infamously was not afraid to tell Paul some songs sucked.

He is, yes. As Mark Lewisohn says in that podcast you referenced, though, nothing really goes out there with Paul's name on it that he doesn't want going out, which I agree is something quite different but nevertheless speaks to his desire to control everything. I do still think that Paul wants to have the final word and that doesn't quite work in a true collaborative relationship. But this is pretty much what you already know.

It's definitely true that, like most artists including the BB's, McCartney has (and certainly *should* have) final say on what goes out. But signing off on something is a more passive action than refusing to cede control at earlier, "creating" stage of the music-making process. On rare occasions, McCartney has seemingly ceded artistic control (e.g. the awful Kanye track), but certainly he still signed off on it and made sure what was put "out there" was what he was okay with.

But generally speaking, he hasn't much sat down and done a lot of 50/50 songwriting/recording collaborations in recent decades, and much at all outside of the early years with Lennon.

I still can't believe that McCartney's song with Kanye has been in his setlist for the last several years.