gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
609759 Posts in 24648 Topics by 3511 Members - Latest Member: FredGroman June 25, 2017, 08:48:39 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Drugs: Heroes or Villains?  (Read 3703 times)
Rick5150
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 182


View Profile
« on: January 01, 2017, 06:48:45 AM »

Everybody knows that if Mike Love had his way, the Wilson brothers would not have been involved with drugs. Or at least not as involved as it seems like it really did not bother him that much when the creative output yielded songs like California Girls or Good Vibrations, but that is another story.

But if we took away the drugs, would the Beach Boys music been as groundbreaking, introspective and explorative? Would Brian have chosen the same lyricists for some of his music? Would Brian have taken some of the risks that he did? Would the vocals have sounded the same? Would Dennisí music be so heartfelt, sad and personal? Or would the group have stalled during the mid-60ís?

Carl had better control over his drug use. I think his voice was amazing and he was a really nice guy who wrote some good music and took charge when the band needed him. Mike and Al have written some pretty decent lyrics but I am not sure any of this would have been enough to carry the band out of the 60s when their output was important and people were watching their every move to see what level of greatness came next.
Logged
the captain
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7004


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2017, 07:02:54 AM »

I think both the benefits and harms of drugs on creativity tend to be exaggerated. Creative people are creative, boring people are boring. Chemicals might spur or dull this or that idea, but a drug-free Brian wasn't going to be Mike Love, or vice versa.

Work ethic and dependability might have suffered with some of the drugs. Performance certainly did at times, as we see with Carl in the Australia tour in the later 70s. But writing? I don't think it's all that big a part of the picture.
Logged

Demon-Fighting Genius, Patronizing Twaddler, Argumentative, Sanctimonious Prick, and Sensationalist Dullard who (occasionally to rarely) puts songs here.

No interest in your assorted grudges and nonsense.
Adult Child
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 284



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2017, 08:11:02 AM »

Without drugs I don't think what he did would've been as extreme. Without LSD, more specifically. But nobody really knows the full extent of their influence and what happened except Brian.

"About a year ago I had what I consider a very religious experience. I took LSD, a full dose of LSD, and later, another time, I took a smaller dose. And I learned a lot of things, like patience, understanding. I can't teach you or tell you what I learned from taking it, but I consider it a very religious experience." - Brian Wilson, 1966

"I did my dose of LSD. It shattered my mind and I came back, thank God, in I don't know how many pieces." - Brian Wilson, 1976

"I took the LSD and that just totally tore my head off. Acid was like everything I could ever be and everything I wouldn't be I came to grips with. You just come to grips with what you are and what you can do and what you can't do and you learn to face it." - Brian Wilson, mid 1970s

"Time can be spent in the studio to the point where you just get so next to it you don't know where you are with it and you just decide to chuck it for awhile." - Brian Wilson on Smile, mid 1970s

"We got stoned and we'd write little 30 second snippets. Or sometimes a minute snippet. But hardly ever more than a minute. We'd be sitting there going 'Where is this stuff?'" - Brian Wilson on Smile, 2011
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 08:21:09 AM by Adult Child » Logged

"In my opinion it makes Pet Sounds stink - that's how good it is!" - Dennis Wilson

"Our records were really very good. We're very talented and we know how to do what we do." - Carl Wilson

"The thing is, I'm just pooping along. Some people buzz along. I poop along. I just can't help it; that's the way I am. I'm just a pooper." - Brian Wilson
RP50
Smiley Smile Newbie

Offline Offline

Posts: 9


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2017, 10:33:30 AM »

It seems Mike has turned out to be rather ambivalent about the subject. In his book, he wrote something akin to (paraphrasing, because I don't want to comb through the book for the quote) "without (Brian doing) drugs, we might have had ten "Good Vibrations." On the other hand, without the drugs we might not have had one 'Good Vibrations.'"
Logged
Magic Transistor Radio
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2708


John Todd whistleblower


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2017, 07:23:58 AM »

I think definite villain. Frank Zappa never took drugs and is very innovative. I think Brian could have been musically inspired by what he heard and not by drugs. But who knows. A lot of innovative artists today, like Radiohead don't do drugs as far as I know.
Logged

"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
Emdeeh
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2118



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2017, 10:03:04 AM »

I agree, definitely villains.
Logged
Jukka
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 680



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2017, 10:16:23 AM »

Some drugs just lower the treshold, and you might come up with and explore wacky new ideas more easily. But it's still coming from the creative person, not from the drugs. They're merely a tool, a shortcut. For a sensitive guy like Brian, I'd say they were ultimately a villain.
Logged

"Surfing and cars were okay but there was a war going on."
KDS
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2937


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2017, 10:22:14 AM »

Villains overall. 

I think the whole correlation between drugs and great music is a bit of a myth. 
Logged

Any opinions posted by me regarding the music of The Beach Boys, and their members, is in no way a show of disrespect towards any member of The Beach Boys, past or present.
CM Punky Brewster
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 539


Hey, Colt Cobana! How ya doin'?


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2017, 10:42:56 AM »

I'm gonna give the cop-out answer and say neither. You would not have the level of introspection on the TODAY ballads and PET SOUNDS without pot and SMILE was Twain and Disney on acid.  Without drugs, a lot of that music would have turned out differently.  On the other hand, Brian was one guy who, in retrospect, never should have touched LSD.  It's very much a double-edged sword.
Logged
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4008


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2017, 12:02:38 PM »

I'm gonna give the cop-out answer and say neither. You would not have the level of introspection on the TODAY ballads and PET SOUNDS without pot and SMILE was Twain and Disney on acid.  Without drugs, a lot of that music would have turned out differently.  On the other hand, Brian was one guy who, in retrospect, never should have touched LSD.  It's very much a double-edged sword.

I was going to say either neither or heroes and villains.

I'll look at this from a completely different perspective: don't just imagine taking away drugs from The Beach Boys, but imagine had drugs never influenced one single second of 60s music. It is a totally different scene with that in mind, and the influences and the depth/topics of 60s songwriting become very different.

The correlation between drugs and great music is no myth at all. The Beatles created some of their absolute best work after they started smoking marijuana, and specifically they started creating some of their most experimentally beautiful music after taking LSD ('Tomorrow Never Knows', 'She's Leaving Home', etc). Would the Beatles still have created great work without drugs? Absolutely. But songs like 'Day Tripper' would NEVER have been made, Bob Dylan probably would have never written or released 'Visions of Johanna' or 'Sad Eyed Lady' or 'Mr. Tambourine Man' (as we know them now) and a plethora of other songs that defined his mid-60s career without drugs. The shape of the musical landscape of the mid-60s would have been completely different and without them we would never ever have gotten Pet Sounds as we know it today.

People can write great music without drugs. But people can also write great music with drugs. And music created without drugs can be and usually is FAR different than music created without drugs.

Even had Brian never taken any drugs: Imagine a world where Rubber Soul was not influenced by drugs. Would the lyrics be the same? Would the chords be the same? Would the experimentation be the same? Would the Beatles have hesitated releasing certain songs that were too 'out there'? And in return would Brian have been as touched by that album as he was?

I'm rambling on now. But I guess the answer to the question is kinda what Andy wrote above...only I would say both heroes and villains. The drugs were truly a villain as Brian lost control of his mind (and though he was displaying signs of mental problems prior to indulging, the drugs exacerbated the problems). But they were also a hero, as without drugs I doubt we would have the depth of topics written about in the music. 'I Just Wasn't Made For These Times', 'I Know There's An Answer', and many more would never have been written...and thus perhaps Pet Sounds would either never have existed or it wouldn't be as profound as people see it today.
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again.

"You know I've kiboshed before. And I will kibosh again." - Crazy Joe Davola
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3500


Perhaps I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2017, 01:58:47 PM »

This may or may not be relevant to the topic at hand:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7904.0.html
Logged

"I don't want to go out. I want to stay in. Get things done." (David Bowie)
Emily
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2005


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2017, 04:25:41 PM »

I think it's unknown whether the drugs Brian Wilson took in the '60s contributed to his mental health problems. I doubt they did.
Drugs are unnecessary for creativity, biologically.  Some people find that some are helpful in decreasing inhibition and increasing breadth of thought, both of which can contribute to creative expression.
Logged
tpesky
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 841


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2017, 04:41:06 PM »

I think it also depends on the type of drugs. Marijuana obviously doesn't have the long range problems.  I think most musicians who survived have expressed regret for the amounts of drugs they did and how it affected their careers.  The recent Chicago documentary is an example.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 04:42:12 PM by tpesky » Logged
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4008


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2017, 05:12:37 PM »

Research heavily suggests that marijuana affects people predisposed to schizophrenia differently than those without any underlying schizophrenic issues. Research is varied but many researchers do believe that smoking marijuana can bring out the side affects of predisposed* schizophrenia...as I say, this is varied, but from what I've heard over the years pretty much any researcher will agree that anyone with underlying schizophrenic issues should not smoke marijuana.

I'm honestly not sure about the research regarding LSD and schizophrenia. But when Brian says it shattered his mind into a million pieces (and it was hard for him to collect those pieces again) I have no reason to doubt that he truly means it.

Drugs are unnecessary for creativity, absolutely. But the type of creativity and avenues you explore because of drugs vary greatly from a sober creative session. Like I said above, you can make great music without drugs, but it will be totally different music.

*edited that important word in
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 05:30:31 PM by rab2591 » Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again.

"You know I've kiboshed before. And I will kibosh again." - Crazy Joe Davola
pixletwin
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4519



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2017, 05:47:20 PM »

I think Lennon once said that the impact on drugs is overrated. If he wrote a song in a swimming pool would people say that the swimming pool wrote the song?

Personally, I agree with what the captain said.
Logged
Emily
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2005


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2017, 06:02:33 PM »

The science is out on whether it's the chicken or the egg with marijuana or acid and psychosis or schizophrenia. There's a little evidence of drug to disease symptom acceleration, very little of drug to disease causation and there's evidence that the same genetics that cause the disease cause one to use weed or acid, explaining the correlation.
I assume Brian Wilson meant what he said. Whether it's accurate is another question.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 06:10:33 PM by Emily » Logged
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4008


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2017, 06:31:46 PM »

The science is out on whether it's the chicken or the egg with marijuana or acid and psychosis or schizophrenia. There's little evidence of drug to disease symptom acceleration, and there's evidence that the same genetics that cause the disease cause one to use weed or acid.
I assume Brian Wilson meant what he said. Whether it's accurate is another question.

Yes, as I said it's varied. Regardless, as I said above I think Brian heard voices in his head before he even partook in those drugs (and was definitely displaying signs of mental illness). It is certainly verified that those who already have mental problems of this kind have their symptoms worsen after smoking marijuana...and thus there's no doubt in my mind that his mental problems only worsened after partaking in these drugs (perhaps specifically marijuana).
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again.

"You know I've kiboshed before. And I will kibosh again." - Crazy Joe Davola
SMiLE Brian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7237



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2017, 06:41:08 PM »

I think the speed and LSD during smile was what really started the problems.
Logged

I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
Emily
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2005


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2017, 06:45:11 PM »

It is certainly not certain. As I said, the science is out.
Logged
Adult Child
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 284



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2017, 06:56:10 PM »

It is certainly not certain. As I said, the science is out.

Well somebody should let it back in!

Only kidding. I mean it'd be crazy if he'd had no mental problems already boiling up and then drugs just caused him to freak out as much as he did.
Logged

"In my opinion it makes Pet Sounds stink - that's how good it is!" - Dennis Wilson

"Our records were really very good. We're very talented and we know how to do what we do." - Carl Wilson

"The thing is, I'm just pooping along. Some people buzz along. I poop along. I just can't help it; that's the way I am. I'm just a pooper." - Brian Wilson
Emily
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2005


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2017, 07:08:22 PM »

 That would be crazy. Literally. Har har.
Logged
Adult Child
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 284



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2017, 07:10:04 PM »

That would be crazy. Literally. Har har.

Har har. I haven't laughed that har hard in decades.
Logged

"In my opinion it makes Pet Sounds stink - that's how good it is!" - Dennis Wilson

"Our records were really very good. We're very talented and we know how to do what we do." - Carl Wilson

"The thing is, I'm just pooping along. Some people buzz along. I poop along. I just can't help it; that's the way I am. I'm just a pooper." - Brian Wilson
SMiLE Brian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7237



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2017, 07:16:27 PM »

It's a smiley smile thang! Cool Guy
Logged

I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4008


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2017, 07:18:53 PM »

It is certainly not certain. As I said, the science is out.

The science is out regarding the chicken and egg (i.e. does marijuana use bring about schizophrenia in people with genetic history of that mental illness?). The science is very clear that people who already show signs of mental illness of that kind should not smoke marijuana as it exacerbates the symptoms. As people on both sides of the chicken and egg argument are in agreement that people with mental illness should not smoke marijuana, and there is reasoning for that.
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again.

"You know I've kiboshed before. And I will kibosh again." - Crazy Joe Davola
SMiLE Brian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7237



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2017, 07:23:37 PM »

The 1964 breakdown showed the issues existed before drugs.
Logged

I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
gfx
Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!