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618910 Posts in 24943 Topics by 3545 Members - Latest Member: leafy October 23, 2017, 08:32:59 AM
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Author Topic: Some "signed" Brian books not actually signed  (Read 9418 times)
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« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2016, 07:16:27 PM »

I think the autograph company got greedy and used the autopens to meet extra demand for signed books.
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« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2016, 07:28:14 PM »

Would not surprise me one bit. And heck, it could've been someone with them  acting on their own, too.
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« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2016, 08:12:19 PM »

Having roadies and assistants sign stuff for artists is  a long-standing Rock n Roll tradition!
In my opinion, there is a huge difference between Neil Aspinall signing for John, Paul, George and Ringo in 1964, and passing off Brian Wilson autobiographies as genuinely signed in 2016 and charging fans a premium.

Even Jeff Foskett, allegedly, bringing things on the tour bus to be signed and coming back out with "questionable" looking signatures is different--this is more along the lines of the long-standing rock n' roll tradition that you speak of.

I'm baffled by the number of posters minimizing the seriousness of the situation. Brian (or his team) have violated the trust of his biggest fans. This is stomach turning and nothing short of fraud.

Marty, I am more than a little confused. What is the huge difference between Neil Aspinall forging Beatle signatures and what's going on with Brian's book? I wouldn't begin to defend either.

It seems that the "Beatle-centrics" are all over this one.
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« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2016, 12:01:29 AM »


Marty, I am more than a little confused. What is the huge difference between Neil Aspinall forging Beatle signatures and what's going on with Brian's book? I wouldn't begin to defend either. ...


I'd say the difference is that in the case of I Am Brian Wilson, fans are being asked to pay a significant premium for the book, with the guarantee of an authentic signature which is backed by a Certificate of Authenticity.

Also, I Am Brian Wilson was printed with a woven spine, with the result that the very first sheet, which is the page that was used for the autopenned signature, and the second sheet, which is the one Brian typically signs in person, were both part of a larger printed sheet which, when the book was being printed, was folded, woven together, cut, and bound into the book. I'm not at all calling into question Ray Lawyer's account, but in such a case Brian wouldn't have actually signed his book, but rather a page that would have been later pasted into the finished book, which would duplicate a page that was already bound into the book during the normal printing process, giving the book, IMO, a less than authentic presentation. (Inserting a pre-signed page into a book with a non-woven glued spine, prior to the pages being glued to the spine, could work, although it would slow down the production process.)

Here's a similar autopenned story that broke a few days ago concerning books with "signatures" from Wayne Gretzky.

Oops, forgot the link. Here it is: http://globalnews.ca/news/3019789/books-with-fake-wayne-gretzky-autographs-sold-by-indigo/
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 12:15:14 AM by Custom Machine » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2016, 04:17:10 AM »

The only Brian autograph I have is from the PBS DVD from last year. Any chance that's even legit? I'm not a big autograph guy, but that was kind of cool to have as a nice bonus.

When I was a kid, I wrote some ballplayers letters and got a few back. Years later, I found out that Nolan Ryan used auto-pen unless you sent him a big check for his charity, which a kid like me had no idea about. Really made me look at him differently. He should've just sent an unsigned picture like Tony Gwynn did.
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« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2016, 06:15:34 AM »

The only Brian autograph I have is from the PBS DVD from last year. Any chance that's even legit? I'm not a big autograph guy, but that was kind of cool to have as a nice bonus.

When I was a kid, I wrote some ballplayers letters and got a few back. Years later, I found out that Nolan Ryan used auto-pen unless you sent him a big check for his charity, which a kid like me had no idea about. Really made me look at him differently. He should've just sent an unsigned picture like Tony Gwynn did.
The autographs included in the PBS DVD have never been questioned. Like any autograph, unless you see it signed personally, there is a chance it was not signed by the person. However, I have little doubt that if you sent the PBS DVD autograph into a third party authenticator, such as PSA/DNA or JSA, it would come back authentic.
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« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2016, 06:18:17 AM »

The only Brian autograph I have is from the PBS DVD from last year. Any chance that's even legit? I'm not a big autograph guy, but that was kind of cool to have as a nice bonus.

When I was a kid, I wrote some ballplayers letters and got a few back. Years later, I found out that Nolan Ryan used auto-pen unless you sent him a big check for his charity, which a kid like me had no idea about. Really made me look at him differently. He should've just sent an unsigned picture like Tony Gwynn did.

As I mentioned in one thread or another, I examined my PBS signature and compared it to several others (a number were on eBay), and they are all A) Different from each other and B) Pretty clearly present-day style Brian sigs with somewhat shaky and spidery writing.

Someone who bought two copies of the Premiere signed edition of Brian's new book posted pics of both of their copies to that same Facebook discussion seen in an earlier post, and they clearly have "real" signatures. The two are different from each other, and both are different from the "autopen" signatures. Clearly, some "real" signatures were given to and sold by Premiere. Again, this is rather odd and in my mind at least leaves open the possibility that someone created autopen signatures either outside the purview of whomever procured the "real" signatures, and/or autopen signatures were created for some other purpose (less nefarious perhaps but still unfortunate) and were erroneously sent to Premiere.

We really have no idea how many real or fake signatures were sold by Premiere. It appears five "autopen" signatures have been uncovered on that Facebook discussion (three individuals posting pics of their own, and then the original discussion starter also pointing to two eBay auctions), while three copies posted in that discussion by people who bought theirs show apparently legit autographs. Obviously, the entire discussion there on Facebook only involves a very small fraction of people who bought copies, so we have no way of knowing if 1% or 5% or 50% or more or less of the copies are autopen.

This is a tough thing to figure out, because the "it's so blatant they had to know it would be caught" argument works both for or against any entity in this equation, whether it's Premiere or the publisher or Brian's management, or some employee tangentially or directly involved in any of those operations. It's so weird and so obvious and blatant that I still feel it leaves open the possibility that while "autopen" (or stamped, etc.) sigs can't be "accidentally" created, there may have been no intention to actually sell these autopen signatures as part of the Premiere release.
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« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2016, 06:24:10 AM »

I also have to say that I get both the differences and similarities between Aspinall and Evans (or someone else) faking Beatles sigs in 1964 versus Premiere selling them in 2016.

From a consumer point of view, the issues are very different.

From a moral/ethical point of view, one could argue it's all the same. If anything, in the 60s they knowingly sent fake autographs out to fans and certainly implied they were legit (and this also created authentication/memorabilia issues decades into the future). Whereas, with this thing with Brian's book, the chain of events at least at this stage leaves open the possibility that they created stamped or autopenned signatures for some non-commercial purpose where a real autograph *wasn't* warrantied, and those copies accidentally made their way to Premiere. I think this sliver of a benefit of the doubt is worth offering considering Brian regularly signs real autographs and that Premiere was provided and did sell "real" autographs alongside apparent stamped/autopenned versions.
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« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2016, 06:34:28 AM »


Marty, I am more than a little confused. What is the huge difference between Neil Aspinall forging Beatle signatures and what's going on with Brian's book? I wouldn't begin to defend either. ...


I'd say the difference is that in the case of I Am Brian Wilson, fans are being asked to pay a significant premium for the book, with the guarantee of an authentic signature which is backed by a Certificate of Authenticity.


Custom Machine has essentially nailed my thinking. Still deceptive and unfortunate, but there is a huge difference between secretarial signing something in 1964 and passing off an autopen/stamp/facsimile as hand-signed in 2016. A couple of points:

1. In the 1950s and 1960s (and even today), it was common practice for athletes/celebrities to use secretaries, stamps, printed signatures, etc. to meet fan demand for their autographs. Many team signed baseballs from the 1950s and 1960s have "clubhouse signatures" to complete the ball. There was no multi-billion dollar memorabilia industry that truly monetized autographs.
2. There has always been a risk of requesting autographs through the mail or via a fan club. To this day, autopen, stamps, pre-printed autographs are used to meet demand. I'm not crazy about the practice, but if they aren't charging for autographs, they are just trying to satisfy fan demand even if it has little or no value.
3. I hate that in 2012-2013, someone close to Brian (most speculate Jeff Foskett) would ghost/secretarial sign for Brian. In the case of taking items on the bus for fans and returning them with the Foskett signature--I don't like it, but there was no money exchanged. The programs, CDs, photos that fans purchased with the Foskett signature is fraud, plain and simple.

The facts as they currently stand:

1. Premiere Collectibles sold books purported to be hand signed by Brian Wilson that turned out to be not genuine.

Anything else is speculation. I think the reason people generally pointed the finger back to the book publisher or Brian's management is because Premiere Collectibles has been in business for many years and the hit to their reputation would not be worth sending out fake signed books. On the flipside, you have a history (C50, 2013 AC gig, etc.) of not genuine signatures of Brian being sold to fans. Everyone can draw their own conclusions...
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« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2016, 06:42:47 AM »

So the handlers that take fans to and from soundchecks and other VIP events are all employed by Brian?
I do not claim to be an expert, but I participated in two different meet & greets at two separate venues 200 miles apart and they were run by the same two people. The young female that checked everyone in and moved people from soundcheck to meet & greet (don't remember her name) and Jerry Weiss, who seemed to be in charge of the meet & greet process.

Quote
Both meet and greets I participated in within the past year with Brian were fully run by his team. Jerry Weiss ran through the rules, brought people in the room, handled getting things signed, etc.

Right...my comment was more of a general nature...very few artists handle *everything* in house. In Brian's case, yes, the meet and greets to my knowledge are in-house (same with Mike and Bruce).

Okay, fair enough, but when people were raising past issues with non-genuine Brian Wilson autographs, your response these things are usually setup and/or run by promoters and not management. Then when I pointed out that it appears Brian's meet & greets are run by his management you backpedaled and said you knew that.

So, who is to blame for the fake signatures on the C50 programs, Gershwin posters, the AC photos? Your previous answer seemed to try to shift the blame to "promoters" and away from anyone connected to Brian. Can you try to be objective?
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« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2016, 07:01:19 AM »

Who "hosts" the VIP events or who is the on-site contact person isn't necessarily the same as who is "running" it. Technically, it is the promoter/ticket seller who is running the thing. You're not paying Brian directly for either the concert tickets or the VIP tickets/passes.

So it's the promoter/seller who has to warranty the things they're selling you, and they in turn contract or make agreements with others to facilitate whatever it is they're selling. If Brian's on-site team are running things, they're technically agents not of Brian but of the promoter/VIP ticket seller (who in turn may have an agreement directly with those individuals, or who may have an agreement with Brian's production team to provide those people).

It ends up being a bit like the Premiere thing. The consumer beef has to be with the entity they paid (Premiere, or the ticket seller/promoter), and that entity in turn is the one who needs to deal with Brian's team.

The whole thing of monetizing "face time" or autographs with celebrities is odd. That doesn't absolve anyone of faking autographs, but after a number of years of questions about autographs, and at least occasional but recurring odd backstage VIP encounter stories, I can't fathom shelling out hundreds of dollars for such stuff.
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« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2016, 07:43:07 AM »

I know what's been reported so far, that's it. It doesn't make sense at all. There is much that needs to be sorted out. If it means anything, I'd suggest yet again that collective deep cleansing breath at least until the parties directly involved have a chance to investigate exactly what happened and how it happened.

Until then, I'd also suggest Marty, KDS, and others who write as if they already built the gallows and are waiting for the condemned to march up the stairs, take that deep breath and consider getting more information.

And consider these "knowns" which I'll post for discussion. Are they the exact reasons and causes? Of course not. The people involved probably won't know what the hell happened until more is investigated. But:

Ray Lawlor was there as Brian personally signed, and posted what he saw. That's fact. Brian signed and those signatures were delivered.

- Point 1 - Could that suggest Brian and Brian's "management" fulfilled their part of the deal? Yes. Of course. Signatures done and delivered. Next.

Signatures go to the publisher to be inserted into the books.

- Point 2 - It sounds as if customers of Premiere received the real autographs. So the publisher had to have fulfilled their part of the deal in this case.  What about the other autographs, the "auto" signed ones? That's where you'd ask the publisher and the publisher could access their delivery and manufacturing records and work orders and the whole paper trail to see what was done, by whom, and when. If the order was for "x amount" of books to get the autographs, and those were done, then they lived up to the deal.

The vendors and third-party sellers like Premiere take pre-orders from customers for these autographed copies, they have a purchase order for "x amount" of books to be shipped to them, they are billed for it (assuming), and they inventory the copies. Assuming they would await the order of autographed copies pre-ordered by their customers, they remove them from their stock of x-amount of books, then ship to the customers who paid.

- Point 3 -

Did Premiere inspect the autographed copies when they took the shipment of autographed books pre-ordered by their customers? Did they notice a discrepancy in the quality of the signatures? I doubt the order was in the 10,000's...so did they have a QC inspection of the items before packing and shipping them?

Maybe they did and the signatures were fine on that initial order. So these were shipped. We know that some customers are posting their signature copies that are legit - and would be the ones Brian signed and was witnessed signing by his friends like Ray.

So what happened to cause this mess after that initial run, which I can only assume checked out OK, was inspected and OK'ed by Premiere, and delivered to those customers who placed the initial pre-orders and got their copies which they have now been posting online as examples of the legit signatures?

Brian and "his management" signed what they agreed to sign. They delivered these and the publisher put the books together. Still want to hang them before knowing more than exactly what has been reported, which is simply Brian signed x amount of copies, people were there who watched him sign x amount of copies, and those were handed over as agreed to be put into the books. Done. As far as they know, I'm assuming, they delivered x amount of signatures as agreed and are possibly just as angry and trying to figure out what happened after that as everyone else.


- Point 4 -

According to what I've seen posted, Premiere sold out of the initial pre-order run. Then they posted that they would be trying to get more copies to sell, and later reported they did.

Was it this second order by Premiere that saw the problem present itself? If so, did Premiere inspect the copies they had received in this second refill order to make sure everything was up to standard? I'd say if all of this is widespread as fans are posting these signatures in question, perhaps Premiere dropped the ball in their quality control and shipping/fulfillment department by not inspecting what they would be packing and shipping to paying customers. But that's just my opinion...like everyone else, I have no idea what happened and am waiting to hear more.

More importantly...WHERE did Premiere get this second order after the initial run sold out via pre-order?

If I were looking into this, I'd ask for all purchase orders, invoices, shipping and receiving records, and listings of everyone whose hands and job duties would have contacted these books with the questionable autographs.

The beauty of the digital age is the ability to track shipments, work orders, and every step of the manufacturing and delivery process in minutes versus chasing paper trails and file folders packed in storage facilities.

When all is added up, it should trace the path of the initial order, the subsequent refill order, all communications between sales, shipping, manufacturing, etc...and it will most likely find whatever issues caused something like this to happen.

Or maybe the answer will be more simple than that.

Until then, again I'd consider taking a coffee break from the gallows-building and see what develops.

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« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2016, 07:48:14 AM »

Who "hosts" the VIP events or who is the on-site contact person isn't necessarily the same as who is "running" it. Technically, it is the promoter/ticket seller who is running the thing. You're not paying Brian directly for either the concert tickets or the VIP tickets/passes.

So it's the promoter/seller who has to warranty the things they're selling you, and they in turn contract or make agreements with others to facilitate whatever it is they're selling. If Brian's on-site team are running things, they're technically agents not of Brian but of the promoter/VIP ticket seller (who in turn may have an agreement directly with those individuals, or who may have an agreement with Brian's production team to provide those people).

It ends up being a bit like the Premiere thing. The consumer beef has to be with the entity they paid (Premiere, or the ticket seller/promoter), and that entity in turn is the one who needs to deal with Brian's team.

The whole thing of monetizing "face time" or autographs with celebrities is odd. That doesn't absolve anyone of faking autographs, but after a number of years of questions about autographs, and at least occasional but recurring odd backstage VIP encounter stories, I can't fathom shelling out hundreds of dollars for such stuff.
Seems like a lot of technicalities and legal speak to absolve Brian's team from having any responsibility. Did I buy my tickets for the concert at the Four Winds Casino or Fox Theatre from Brian directly? No. Was anyone from the venue involved with checking me in or handing out laminates, posters, sheet music, etc.? No. That was all handled by Brian's team. Again, two different venues 200 miles apart.

I can also tell you with the first meet & greet I participated in, when I called the venue for details, they said they don't run them, they are waiting for information from Brian's team (was told the same thing by the venue ahead of my Mike & Bruce meet & greet).

In the case of Mike & Bruce's meet & greets, you purchase them directly from mikelove.com - no promoter involved at all.

Jerry Weiss has gotten name checked a lot recently, whether it's high profile interviews promoting the book or Brian naming him on several occasions in the book. Are you suggesting he isn't on Brian's payroll?
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« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2016, 07:59:54 AM »

I know what's been reported so far, that's it. It doesn't make sense at all. There is much that needs to be sorted out. If it means anything, I'd suggest yet again that collective deep cleansing breath at least until the parties directly involved have a chance to investigate exactly what happened and how it happened.

Until then, I'd also suggest Marty, KDS, and others who write as if they already built the gallows and are waiting for the condemned to march up the stairs, take that deep breath and consider getting more information.

And consider these "knowns" which I'll post for discussion. Are they the exact reasons and causes? Of course not. The people involved probably won't know what the hell happened until more is investigated. But:

Ray Lawlor was there as Brian personally signed, and posted what he saw. That's fact. Brian signed and those signatures were delivered.

- Point 1 - Could that suggest Brian and Brian's "management" fulfilled their part of the deal? Yes. Of course. Signatures done and delivered. Next.

Signatures go to the publisher to be inserted into the books.

- Point 2 - It sounds as if customers of Premiere received the real autographs. So the publisher had to have fulfilled their part of the deal in this case.  What about the other autographs, the "auto" signed ones? That's where you'd ask the publisher and the publisher could access their delivery and manufacturing records and work orders and the whole paper trail to see what was done, by whom, and when. If the order was for "x amount" of books to get the autographs, and those were done, then they lived up to the deal.

The vendors and third-party sellers like Premiere take pre-orders from customers for these autographed copies, they have a purchase order for "x amount" of books to be shipped to them, they are billed for it (assuming), and they inventory the copies. Assuming they would await the order of autographed copies pre-ordered by their customers, they remove them from their stock of x-amount of books, then ship to the customers who paid.

- Point 3 -

Did Premiere inspect the autographed copies when they took the shipment of autographed books pre-ordered by their customers? Did they notice a discrepancy in the quality of the signatures? I doubt the order was in the 10,000's...so did they have a QC inspection of the items before packing and shipping them?

Maybe they did and the signatures were fine on that initial order. So these were shipped. We know that some customers are posting their signature copies that are legit - and would be the ones Brian signed and was witnessed signing by his friends like Ray.

So what happened to cause this mess after that initial run, which I can only assume checked out OK, was inspected and OK'ed by Premiere, and delivered to those customers who placed the initial pre-orders and got their copies which they have now been posting online as examples of the legit signatures?

Brian and "his management" signed what they agreed to sign. They delivered these and the publisher put the books together. Still want to hang them before knowing more than exactly what has been reported, which is simply Brian signed x amount of copies, people were there who watched him sign x amount of copies, and those were handed over as agreed to be put into the books. Done. As far as they know, I'm assuming, they delivered x amount of signatures as agreed and are possibly just as angry and trying to figure out what happened after that as everyone else.


- Point 4 -

According to what I've seen posted, Premiere sold out of the initial pre-order run. Then they posted that they would be trying to get more copies to sell, and later reported they did.

Was it this second order by Premiere that saw the problem present itself? If so, did Premiere inspect the copies they had received in this second refill order to make sure everything was up to standard? I'd say if all of this is widespread as fans are posting these signatures in question, perhaps Premiere dropped the ball in their quality control and shipping/fulfillment department by not inspecting what they would be packing and shipping to paying customers. But that's just my opinion...like everyone else, I have no idea what happened and am waiting to hear more.

More importantly...WHERE did Premiere get this second order after the initial run sold out via pre-order?

If I were looking into this, I'd ask for all purchase orders, invoices, shipping and receiving records, and listings of everyone whose hands and job duties would have contacted these books with the questionable autographs.

The beauty of the digital age is the ability to track shipments, work orders, and every step of the manufacturing and delivery process in minutes versus chasing paper trails and file folders packed in storage facilities.

When all is added up, it should trace the path of the initial order, the subsequent refill order, all communications between sales, shipping, manufacturing, etc...and it will most likely find whatever issues caused something like this to happen.

Or maybe the answer will be more simple than that.

Until then, again I'd consider taking a coffee break from the gallows-building and see what develops.


I agree, those are the facts that we know at this point. I don't have a lot of faith that we will get the full story and nobody comes out of this looking good. However, the discussion has primarily shifted to the multiple instances that non-genuine autographs have been sold to Brian's fans.

Care to comment on the bogus C50 programs, Gershwin posters or the Atlantic City photos that had to be replaced? We never received explanations from the source, but there is a consensus that Brian didn't sign a good deal of autographs that were sold as the genuine article.
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« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2016, 08:18:46 AM »

Presented without comment, a response from Premiere Collectibles:

"Our goal has always been to make genuine, autographed copies of popular books available to the public. We have had the privilege of forming many great relationships that make this happen. For a lot of signings, we are able to work directly with the authorís team and we have our staff on site to witness the signing. In other instances, the publisher is able to arrange a signing for us when the author visits their office. In this case, the publisher arranged the signing for us and sent the books to the author to be signed. We do examine the books and, unfortunately, we made a mistake with this one since the non-genuine copies were mixed in with authentic copies. We believe in our team and we are taking measure to ensure that this never happens again.

We are doing our best to ensure that all non-genuine copies are returned. All purchasers have been emailed so they can check their copy. If anyone spots a non-genuine copy with our COA on any marketplace, please alert the seller and direct them to us. We will buy back the book from them, even if they were not the original purchaser.

We agree that offering a replacement would have been a better resolution, and we wish that were possible. We have been unable to get any response or alternative resolution from the author, so replacements are likely out of the question."
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« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2016, 08:19:08 AM »

Seems like a lot of technicalities and legal speak to absolve Brian's team from having any responsibility. Did I buy my tickets for the concert at the Four Winds Casino or Fox Theatre from Brian directly? No. Was anyone from the venue involved with checking me in or handing out laminates, posters, sheet music, etc.? No. That was all handled by Brian's team. Again, two different venues 200 miles apart.

I can also tell you with the first meet & greet I participated in, when I called the venue for details, they said they don't run them, they are waiting for information from Brian's team (was told the same thing by the venue ahead of my Mike & Bruce meet & greet).

In the case of Mike & Bruce's meet & greets, you purchase them directly from mikelove.com - no promoter involved at all.

Jerry Weiss has gotten name checked a lot recently, whether it's high profile interviews promoting the book or Brian naming him on several occasions in the book. Are you suggesting he isn't on Brian's payroll?

I'm not sure why the leap is being made to Brian's team not having "any responsibility." I'm simply laying out that it's unlikely that it's as simple as Brian's team running the whole thing themselves simply because it's Brian's "people" you come into contact with. To the degree Brian's "people" are involved, they are essentially acting as agents for the entity who sold the tickets.

I wouldn't expect a venue to handle anything to do with a meet and greet. They rent the venue out. If you bought a ticket from the venue's box office, you'd be dealing with them for any issues concerning returns/refunds, etc.

When you buy a VIP package, you have to beef with the entity who sold it to you.

If bad autographs or any other problems arise and Brian's "team" is the cause, that's for the promoter/vendor of the VIP packages to take up with his team. That's not to say that if you asked one of Brian's on-site people about a problem you had, they wouldn't necessarily be able to facilitate a solution. Obviously, ideally all the entities would be working together to help each other and fans.

Sounds like Mike sells his VIP packages direct. So if you had a beef with anything to do with that, you would indeed go straight to him (or his website of course).

The possibility of selling fake autographs can't be excused by a "buyer beware" warning. But some "Caveat Emptor" isn't out of line here either. I've found selling autographs and selling face time and photographs to be odd from the get-go, rife with awkward grey areas in terms of what constitutes complaining about.

I think raising this Premiere autograph issue is important.

But eventually, the continued hand-wringing over one's perceived feeling that Brian's team has a questionable track record might be met with the suggestion that the solution may be to stop buying these premium packages and services.

Premiere has apparently already offered to remedy the situation regardless of whose fault it is. So customers are being taken care of. Beyond that, the solution in the future may be to just not buy this stuff.
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« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2016, 08:30:00 AM »

Presented without comment, a response from Premiere Collectibles:

"Our goal has always been to make genuine, autographed copies of popular books available to the public. We have had the privilege of forming many great relationships that make this happen. For a lot of signings, we are able to work directly with the authorís team and we have our staff on site to witness the signing. In other instances, the publisher is able to arrange a signing for us when the author visits their office. In this case, the publisher arranged the signing for us and sent the books to the author to be signed. We do examine the books and, unfortunately, we made a mistake with this one since the non-genuine copies were mixed in with authentic copies. We believe in our team and we are taking measure to ensure that this never happens again.

We are doing our best to ensure that all non-genuine copies are returned. All purchasers have been emailed so they can check their copy. If anyone spots a non-genuine copy with our COA on any marketplace, please alert the seller and direct them to us. We will buy back the book from them, even if they were not the original purchaser.

We agree that offering a replacement would have been a better resolution, and we wish that were possible. We have been unable to get any response or alternative resolution from the author, so replacements are likely out of the question."

I think it's great that they're offering as much of a solution as possible, and customers are being made whole again on their purchase.

This doesn't yet explain how the "non-genuine" signatures got mixed in. I'm still curious to know. Apparently Premiere admits that A) They *do* inspect books (I would assume they inspect for a lot of things, including smeared ink, torn pages, etc.) and B) They missed this.

I'm curious if one of the specific things they check for are stamped/autopenned signatures. If their inspectors do have an eye for that, I then also wonder how rampant this problem was within their run of books.

Also worth keeping mind is this: Let's say that Brian's team knows they didn't do any stamped/autopenned signatures and therefore believe the publisher is at fault. They have an ongoing relationship with that publisher (the book is doing well on the charts, etc.), so it may be a very touchy issue between Brian and the publisher to discuss what happened here. (And that's certainly also true if the publisher believes they didn't do anything wrong as well).

Ideally, yes, a statement from Brian saying he doesn't own an autopen, didn't use one, and only shipped to his publisher authentic signed pages would help.

If the publisher wasn't the go-between between Premiere and Brian, I'd be much less open to giving someone in Brian's operation the benefit of the doubt. But in this case, it's still pretty murky.

Even those who feel Brian has a bad track record with autographs have suggested another person signing for him rather than an autopen or stamp. So the expense and logistics of using an autopen seem almost comically excessive.
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« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2016, 08:36:54 AM »

This type of "ghost signing" has happened before.  At least some of the autographed C50 tour programs that were sold in the merchandise booths for $100 had fake or "ghost signed" Brian Wilson signatures.  We also had an issue in 2013 at the Atlantic City meet and greet.  When we bought the meet and greet package, we were promised an autograph from Brian, Al, and Dave.  At the meet and greet, management refused to allow us to get our own items signed.  Instead, they handed out presigned pictures on cheap computer paper.  The signatures from Al and David were real, but the Brian Wilson signatures had almost certainly NOT been signed by Brian himself.  Many of us complained and Brian's management eventually mailed out authentic autographed photos to those of us who had purchased the package.

If Brian doesn't feel like signing so many autographs, then his management should not be offering them for sale.  It is fraud!

I've had some great e-mail conversations with acedecade75 in the past and he has extensive knowledge on Beach Boys related collectibles. These books are just the latest example. For the sake of providing information to fans, here are "Brian" signatures that many connect to Foskett:

C50 program


2013 Atlantic City meet & greet
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« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2016, 08:52:43 AM »

Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.
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« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2016, 09:46:09 AM »

Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.

Take a second to read the post above where I quote acedecade75 and provided photos. It certainly is possible that Brian bears no blame in the current situation with Premiere Collectibles and PC has taken responsibility for their part in the screw up. The fact that so many people pointed directly to Brian or his "team" has everything to do with past actions. If you know nothing about something, read up and learn. Keeping your head in the sand on the issue is no excuse. Feel free to comment once you become more educated on this particular subject.
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« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2016, 09:57:41 AM »

It's not as if there's a long, impeccably researched treatise on Brian's autographs of recent years. There are scattered discussions, and some pretty strong circumstantial evidence that some of Brian's signatures from recent years aren't legit.

No explanation or denial seems forthcoming, whether one is warranted or not. So then what?

Now, I'm well aware that I've tread over many topics on this board over the years where no further definitive answers seem forthcoming (C50 itself for instance, ironically), but I think those topics come back up because there are still some disagreements among fans (and from members of the band) concerning how that all went down.

On the other hand, I haven't really seen anyone claim that all of Brian's C50 signatures are legit. I think most acknowledge some seemed fishy. So what's left to say or argue? Accountability isn't apparently going to happen (assuming there is blame to be had, which I think in some cases there has to be).

The Premiere situation has some stark similarities to previous accusations of bad signatures, and also some mitigating circumstances that make things far more murky compared to the contested C50 signatures.

We can't control what is signed or not signed, and we can't make anyone admit to anything or take responsibility. So yeah, there's a point at which you gotta stop buying the stuff (both to protest if you feel the person generating the stuff is dishonest, and to avoid getting wonky merchandise going forward) and then there's not much else that can be done.

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« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2016, 10:06:22 AM »

Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.

Take a second to read the post above where I quote acedecade75 and provided photos. It certainly is possible that Brian bears no blame in the current situation with Premiere Collectibles and PC has taken responsibility for their part in the screw up. The fact that so many people pointed directly to Brian or his "team" has everything to do with past actions. If you know nothing about something, read up and learn. Keeping your head in the sand on the issue is no excuse. Feel free to comment once you become more educated on this particular subject.

Marty, spare the bile and read the Facebook comments if you want to read the comments about what you're asking about, these signatures from 2012 and 2013. I don't know anything about how that happened or what happened other than what fans have been posting. What could I say? I have the same info posted by fans as most of us do. If you want to read what others say could have happened, read them. Whatever I say about it is coming from the same bleacher seats as everyone else reading the posts.

Now, my turn. You've been trying to hang Brian and his management over this book situation here and elsewhere. You've even gone so far as to put out a suggestion that Brian committed fraud. To me, it sounds like you have an axe to grind beyond this book situation, and you're using this to help sharpen that axe. And you're putting information out there which you don't know, but are going with anyway.

Look at what has come out so far. Brian signed what he agreed to sign, people witnessed him signing those hundreds of autographs (see Ray Lawlor's post, he was there and saw Brian sign them), and they were handed over to be put into the books. Whatever happened after that part of the process that led to these issues is out of Brian's hands, after the autographs were handed over as agreed, and should make your comments suggesting Brian committed fraud completely moot and false. Some of Premier's original comments back that up. On Brian's end, on BriMel's end, according to the posts, Brian signed them and they were delivered. Done deal.

If you want to tie this into some issues from 2012 and 2013, you're doing a solid job of it. Pursue those issues, find the info and get whatever names you're looking for, but don't try to shift topics and suggest Brian and "his team" are involved in fraud and deceit based on what people who may or may not still be part of that team had done 4 years ago.

It's obvious you are trying to hang this on Brian and "those around him" (to borrow a phrase from another thread), and when the strong possibility is raised that they may not have been aware of this after handing over the signatures Brian actually signed and was witnessed signing, you try to connect this to previous incidents and cases which may or may not have involved people who are no longer in the "those around Brian" category.

You want to make jokes about my head in the sand instead of trying to hash out the issue at hand, which you have been pounding on multiple forums? You want to talk about the issue of these auto-pen signatures getting into Premier's supply line and possible ways that could have happened, or try to link it to the new set of issues from previous years which you've brought up and are trying to shift the discussion toward since Premier's statement? Get your facts straight and check your grudges at the door first, and we'll talk facts. Deal?

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"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
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« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2016, 10:39:54 AM »

That screen shot of the Facebook thread clearly points out that no one is  blaming BriMel. 
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« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2016, 11:00:24 AM »

Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.

Take a second to read the post above where I quote acedecade75 and provided photos. It certainly is possible that Brian bears no blame in the current situation with Premiere Collectibles and PC has taken responsibility for their part in the screw up. The fact that so many people pointed directly to Brian or his "team" has everything to do with past actions. If you know nothing about something, read up and learn. Keeping your head in the sand on the issue is no excuse. Feel free to comment once you become more educated on this particular subject.

Marty, spare the bile and read the Facebook comments if you want to read the comments about what you're asking about, these signatures from 2012 and 2013. I don't know anything about how that happened or what happened other than what fans have been posting. What could I say? I have the same info posted by fans as most of us do. If you want to read what others say could have happened, read them. Whatever I say about it is coming from the same bleacher seats as everyone else reading the posts.

Now, my turn. You've been trying to hang Brian and his management over this book situation here and elsewhere. You've even gone so far as to put out a suggestion that Brian committed fraud. To me, it sounds like you have an axe to grind beyond this book situation, and you're using this to help sharpen that axe. And you're putting information out there which you don't know, but are going with anyway.

Look at what has come out so far. Brian signed what he agreed to sign, people witnessed him signing those hundreds of autographs (see Ray Lawlor's post, he was there and saw Brian sign them), and they were handed over to be put into the books. Whatever happened after that part of the process that led to these issues is out of Brian's hands, after the autographs were handed over as agreed, and should make your comments suggesting Brian committed fraud completely moot and false. Some of Premier's original comments back that up. On Brian's end, on BriMel's end, according to the posts, Brian signed them and they were delivered. Done deal.

If you want to tie this into some issues from 2012 and 2013, you're doing a solid job of it. Pursue those issues, find the info and get whatever names you're looking for, but don't try to shift topics and suggest Brian and "his team" are involved in fraud and deceit based on what people who may or may not still be part of that team had done 4 years ago.

It's obvious you are trying to hang this on Brian and "those around him" (to borrow a phrase from another thread), and when the strong possibility is raised that they may not have been aware of this after handing over the signatures Brian actually signed and was witnessed signing, you try to connect this to previous incidents and cases which may or may not have involved people who are no longer in the "those around Brian" category.

You want to make jokes about my head in the sand instead of trying to hash out the issue at hand, which you have been pounding on multiple forums? You want to talk about the issue of these auto-pen signatures getting into Premier's supply line and possible ways that could have happened, or try to link it to the new set of issues from previous years which you've brought up and are trying to shift the discussion toward since Premier's statement? Get your facts straight and check your grudges at the door first, and we'll talk facts. Deal?



There really isn't more to discuss until Da Capo Press or BriMel explains how this happened--Premiere Collectibles has explained their role and came with a solution for those who purchased the books. I personally don't think the solution goes far enough, as they are leaving non-genuine signed books in circulation, at some point those books will be resold and the buyer will be SOL.

My response on the first page laid out the scenario and all parties involved, as far as we know, and to leave Brian out would be inaccurate--I never suggested Brian committed fraud. I think Brian's only role in this saga was signing the 500 title pages that Ray Lawlor personally witnessed him sign. What happened after that, we don't know.

I know it's loaded when talking about Brian's family, management, friends, etc. and I've done my best to be respectful when talking about "those around him". Honestly, both meet & greets I participated in were professional and the people helping made it an enjoyable experience.

The only reason this was connected back to the 2012 and 2013 bogus autographs is because there is a precedence. I'm sorry, the solution to not getting duped into buying bogus signatures is not to say "You know the history with Brian Wilson and forged signature, so just stay away" it's to ask the question of why this happened and get it rectified.

Further, there is a link between the 2012 and 2013 forged signatures and potentially autopen/stamped/pre-printed books--starting next year, the Pet Sounds VIP includes a signed copy of I Am Brian Wilson and no other memorabilia will be signed. Can we be assured these will be genuine hand-signed books?

Keep attacking me, I can take it. This is very personal to me. I've been collecting autographs for 30 years and it breaks my heart that Brian is tangled up in this mess, even worse that this isn't the first instance.
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« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2016, 11:26:51 AM »

I can certainly understand how the idea of "if you know there have been problems in the past, maybe consider not buying his autographs" isn't going to fly so much with someone who is a long-time autograph collector.

The "think about not buying autographs" idea isn't at all a legal or customer-service-oriented remedy to not getting what you paid for. It's simply advice, and when you claim to be well-versed in *numerous* questionable instances of autographs in recent years and continue to buy them (for instance, what if Premiere had hand-signed books, but signed by someone else?), your complaints are going to eventually be weighed accordingly. It doesn't absolve anyone of selling bad autographs. But a "fool me once...." citation is not completely inappropriate here.

If a retailer who admits their product is defective offers a full refund, what else can possibly be done? You can hope and ask and demand that someone provide full answers to precisely what happened, and I'm sure everybody would prefer that. But I mostly disagree that Premiere offering a full refund (and apparently at least attempting if failing to get replacements for those who wanted them instead of a full refund) is not a sufficient solution. Yes, bad autographs being "out there" is problematic, and they put out an e-mail to consumers to refund and/or replace them. They can't *force* every buyer to return their copy. The refund is appropriate, and the best solution to what can't be undone as a bad situation all around.

I think people familiar with all of this will buy or not buy products accordingly. If I were inclined in the future to buy an autographed book, and *no* further explanation of how this Premiere debacle happened was forthcoming, I'd almost certainly *not* buy from any of these sources.

I'm more than willing to say that, regardless of whether any of this was caused by anyone in Brian's "camp", *not* saying anything about this ever is certainly *not* a good PR move, and is not a fan-friendly way to handle it.

What I'm not sure of is what happens if someone gets a statement from Brian's people that says that Brian personally signed everything he gave to the publisher. Answers to questions often raise more.
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