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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: beatle608 on October 25, 2016, 11:09:05 AM



Title: Some "signed" Brian books not actually signed
Post by: beatle608 on October 25, 2016, 11:09:05 AM
If you purchased a signed copy of Brian's book from Premiere Collectibles, there is a chance it may not be an actual autograph from Brian. While some of the books from PC appear to be unique and authentic autographs, there's a batch of them that are exactly identical and must have been stamped or auto-penned.

Premiere Collectibles is trying to sort this all out and are allowing returns and will refund the full price. They will email you a pre-paid shipping label in order to return the books.

The signatures are noticeably smaller than Brian's usual autograph, and the marker is extremely thick and bold. The photo I included is the signature to look out for. Many people have the exact same one in their books. If you bought a signed book from Premiere Collectibles and it looks just like this, initiate a return and get your money back.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Wrightfan on October 25, 2016, 12:14:07 PM
Another sign is that the letters start with blobs. Clear cut autopen sign.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 25, 2016, 12:25:50 PM
If you purchased a signed copy of Brian's book from Premiere Collectibles, there is a chance it may not be an actual autograph from Brian. While some of the books from PC appear to be unique and authentic autographs, there's a batch of them that are exactly identical and must have been stamped or auto-penned.

Premiere Collectibles is trying to sort this all out and are allowing returns and will refund the full price. They will email you a pre-paid shipping label in order to return the books.

The signatures are noticeably smaller than Brian's usual autograph, and the marker is extremely thick and bold. The photo I included is the signature to look out for. Many people have the exact same one in their books. If you bought a signed book from Premiere Collectibles and it looks just like this, initiate a return and get your money back.

Wow, this is a really big deal. How did you learn about this? Did you purchase a book via Premiere Collectibles?


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: beatle608 on October 25, 2016, 12:39:24 PM
If you purchased a signed copy of Brian's book from Premiere Collectibles, there is a chance it may not be an actual autograph from Brian. While some of the books from PC appear to be unique and authentic autographs, there's a batch of them that are exactly identical and must have been stamped or auto-penned.

Premiere Collectibles is trying to sort this all out and are allowing returns and will refund the full price. They will email you a pre-paid shipping label in order to return the books.

The signatures are noticeably smaller than Brian's usual autograph, and the marker is extremely thick and bold. The photo I included is the signature to look out for. Many people have the exact same one in their books. If you bought a signed book from Premiere Collectibles and it looks just like this, initiate a return and get your money back.

Wow, this is a really big deal. How did you learn about this? Did you purchase a book via Premiere Collectibles?

I did purchase one from them. I noticed when I was on eBay and saw that someone was selling a book with a signature just like mine. I asked around and found out that other people had received the same autograph.

I posted on Premiere Collectible's facebook page and made sure they were aware of it. Other folks chimed in with photos of their books and they all looked the same. While Brian's management supposedly said that they were each signed by Brian, Premiere agreed with us that they were not.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 25, 2016, 01:04:27 PM
I did my best to capture the conversation on Premiere Collectibles Facebook page:

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/BW%20autopen%2001_zps4bf9oq4s.jpg)

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/BW%20autopen%2002_zpsv9gtrnrn.jpg)

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/BW%20autopen%2003_zps3hhimwth.jpg)

Very disappointing, to say the least. This is becoming a pattern and Brian's fans are being ripped off.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 25, 2016, 01:31:04 PM
*insert crowing AGD comment here*


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 25, 2016, 01:42:34 PM
*insert crowing AGD comment here*

I don't get it, why insert this into the conversation? It comes off as trying to diminish genuine concerns. Here are the options:

1. Premiere Collectibles committed fraud - doesn't seem likely considering their reaction to the situation.
and/or
2. The book publisher committed fraud
and/or
3. Brian's team committed fraud
and/or
4. Brian committed fraud

Each of these books came with a certificate of authenticity stating it was personally signed by the author--these are very serious allegations. If I recall, this is not the first time something like this has happened with Brian and autographs.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Pretty Funky on October 25, 2016, 01:49:05 PM
PC says that Brian's manager and his team witnessed him 'signing' them. If the claim is true then a massive 'Fail' but big ups for the refund option from PC.

Nice job to beatle608 and others for the follow-up.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 25, 2016, 01:54:19 PM
PC says that Brian's manager and his team witnessed him 'signing' them. If the claim is true then a massive 'Fail' but big ups for the refund option from PC.

Nice job to beatle608 and others for the follow-up.

Agree, nice job by beatle608 for discovering this.

I disagree that offering a refund makes up for sending customers stamped or autopenned books--replacement books actually signed by Brian is the only way to rectify (and maybe refund the purchase price, as well). I purchased the Mike Love signed book from them, but missed out on the limited supply of Brian Wilson books.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Pretty Funky on October 25, 2016, 02:09:54 PM
Oh I doubt if this will be the end of it. A company such as this will not be impressed that they appear to been had. A immediate refund is their only option but I suspect they will want some redress from said 'managers/ team'.



Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Justin on October 25, 2016, 02:43:03 PM
Shame that this happened.  Brian's offered many signed items on his website in the past with no issues.  I'd imagine signing today a couple hundred books is probably not how he wants to spend a day.  Still though; pretty offensive for his team to think no one would notice or care if they were stamped/autopenned.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: CenturyDeprived on October 25, 2016, 03:22:59 PM
Maybe Mike can sign a copy of Brian's book?  ;D


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Rocky Raccoon on October 25, 2016, 03:42:20 PM
It seems Premiere has pulled the book from their website.  Either that or they sold out.  Because I put "I Am Brian Wilson" into their search engine and the first result was Mike Love's book.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: GhostyTMRS on October 25, 2016, 03:50:09 PM
As someone who also has a fake Brian autograph...well, I'm glad I didn't pay for it. PC is doing the right thing by offering refunds and whoever in Brian's team authorized this clear fraud should be fired immediately. This could get ugly otherwise.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: mikeddonn on October 25, 2016, 04:02:51 PM
It's shocking and fraud.  I and a few others have posted here about fake C50 programmes and Gershwin tour posters.  Brian's management should be making good on all of the things that have been 'fake' signed over the last few years.  They read these boards and so to continue doing it, except in a different way, is showing contempt to fans of Brian Wilson.

Maybe Premier Collectibles will sue the publishers. Brian's 'team' might then get the message.

There are some legit ones like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/I-AM-BRIAN-WILSON-SIGNED-AUTOGRAPHED-BRAND-NEW-1ST-ED-BOOK-COA-BEACH-BOYS-/252596279914?hash=item3acfe95a6a:g:-pwAAOSwo4pYCWPj


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: beatle608 on October 25, 2016, 09:55:55 PM
The main reason why I am so vocal about this is because I want it to get back to Brian's management. It's fraud and also concerning to know that they approve of this behavior.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: thorgil on October 26, 2016, 04:26:43 AM
I have no idea where the responsabilities start and end here, but sure it's a real pity when these things happen.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: CosmicDancer on October 26, 2016, 05:48:18 AM
I have no idea where the responsabilities start and end here, but sure it's a real pity when these things happen.

Well, I assume that the root of the issue stems from Brian and/or management (most likely the management) offering up these exclusive deals to places like Premiere Collectibles and giving them fakes.  I guess you could try to make the case for Premiere being at fault, but I don't think they'd respond the way did on Facebook if they perpetrated the scam.  The buck has to stop at Brian and team.  They need to publicly take responsibility and make things right.  I understand that Brian probably doesn't want to spend hours over several days signing these books, but if that is the case, then you don't offer up these deals.  Period.  End of story.  Selling fake or autopen signatures can't be defended in this case and being that it's Brian's name, whether or not he was personally in on it, it falls on him.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 26, 2016, 06:02:46 AM
Oh I doubt if this will be the end of it. A company such as this will not be impressed that they appear to been had. A immediate refund is their only option but I suspect they will want some redress from said 'managers/ team'.
The damage to Premiere Collectibles is very real. How they address the situation will have long term effects on a company that had an impeccable reputation. My guess is they will need to require one of their representatives be present or a third party authenticator at future book signings.

Shame that this happened.  Brian's offered many signed items on his website in the past with no issues.  I'd imagine signing today a couple hundred books is probably not how he wants to spend a day.  Still though; pretty offensive for his team to think no one would notice or care if they were stamped/autopenned.
This was not a "mistake"--there was intent to defraud both Premiere Collectibles and their customers/his fans.

Maybe Mike can sign a copy of Brian's book?  ;D
Please explain. Is this a joke? I really don't know how anyone could make light of this situation. You added absolutely nothing to this discussion. Disgusting.

It seems Premiere has pulled the book from their website.  Either that or they sold out.  Because I put "I Am Brian Wilson" into their search engine and the first result was Mike Love's book.
They sold out almost immediately. The book remained on the page until recently with a note that they may get additional supply, I never saw additional offers...

As someone who also has a fake Brian autograph...well, I'm glad I didn't pay for it. PC is doing the right thing by offering refunds and whoever in Brian's team authorized this clear fraud should be fired immediately. This could get ugly otherwise.
Honestly, the correct response from Premiere Collectibles is a full refund AND a replacement in exchange for the return of the autopen/stamp book. These books need to be returned and destroyed, otherwise you will see these popping up for resale for decades to come and those less informed will purchase unknowingly.

It's shocking and fraud.  I and a few others have posted here about fake C50 programmes and Gershwin tour posters.  Brian's management should be making good on all of the things that have been 'fake' signed over the last few years.  They read these boards and so to continue doing it, except in a different way, is showing contempt to fans of Brian Wilson.

Maybe Premier Collectibles will sue the publishers. Brian's 'team' might then get the message.

There are some legit ones like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/I-AM-BRIAN-WILSON-SIGNED-AUTOGRAPHED-BRAND-NEW-1ST-ED-BOOK-COA-BEACH-BOYS-/252596279914?hash=item3acfe95a6a:g:-pwAAOSwo4pYCWPj
My guess is that this will be settled behind the scenes. It's clear from Premiere Collectibles' response that they will be keeping this as quiet as possible (i.e. contacting buyers via e-mail). The problem with that is a number of these books have already been "flipped" on the secondary market--remember, that is how this was first detected, books popping up on eBay.

Why does this keep happening? Jeff Foskett was the scapegoat for the past 4 or 5 years...not in the organization anymore. Was it actually Foskett doing the "secretarial" signatures on tour or someone else still on the payroll?

The main reason why I am so vocal about this is because I want it to get back to Brian's management. It's fraud and also concerning to know that they approve of this behavior.
Well done. Thank you for bringing this to light.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 26, 2016, 06:13:33 AM
Well, I assume that the root of the issue stems from Brian and/or management (most likely the management) offering up these exclusive deals to places like Premiere Collectibles and giving them fakes.  I guess you could try to make the case for Premiere being at fault, but I don't think they'd respond the way did on Facebook if they perpetrated the scam.
The only fault I see with Premiere Collectibles is not having one of their representatives or a third party authenticator witness the signings. My guess is it comes down to cost. Premiere Collectibles has/had an impeccable reputation that has been sullied by this affair. I missed out on buying the BW book, but have bought at least a half dozen books from them in the past and receiving anything other than the 100% genuine article never crossed my mind. I assume they have always relied on a signed contract or a witness to attest to authenticity--my guess is that policies may need to change to regain the trust of their most loyal customers.

The buck has to stop at Brian and team.  They need to publicly take responsibility and make things right.  I understand that Brian probably doesn't want to spend hours over several days signing these books, but if that is the case, then you don't offer up these deals.  Period.  End of story.  Selling fake or autopen signatures in this case can't be defended in this case and being that it's Brian's name, whether or not he was personally in on it, it falls on him.
I have no idea how these sorts of deals get made in the first place:

- Is it part of the original deal with the book publisher/record company that ensures a certain number of books/LPs are signed to help push sales?
- Are these deals made on top of the book publisher/record company deal and it's added income?

Either way, Brian is capable of signing autographs. I personally witnessed him sign two in Detroit a month ago. He might very well be sick of it. Ringo Starr famously stopped signing eight years ago. Has he taken flack from fans? Sure, but at least he is being honest saying he has had enough.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: thorgil on October 26, 2016, 07:27:20 AM
My previous post on this matter was too non-committal, and I realise it coud be accused of excessive "brianism".
But I was really uncertain about the technicalities of this situation. After doing a bit of research, I'm feeling free to say that what happened sucks, and a full explanation and/or apology (accompanied by adequate actions) by the "BW team" would be in order.
However, makes me even more satisfied with sticking strictly to the music and caring nothing whatsoever for all the "merchandising" part of the music business. And by that I mean signed books, too.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: beatle608 on October 26, 2016, 07:52:24 AM
I understand that Brian probably doesn't want to spend hours over several days signing these books, but if that is the case, then you don't offer up these deals.  Period.  End of story.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd be happier if I was told "Brian cannot fulfill the request" instead of sending out some phony "signed" books and then lose trust in Brian's management. They screwed up big time and I truly hope this gets back to whoever thought this was acceptable. 



Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Juice Brohnston on October 26, 2016, 08:24:36 AM
My previous post on this matter was too non-committal, and I realise it coud be accused of excessive "brianism".
But I was really uncertain about the technicalities of this situation. After doing a bit of research, I'm feeling free to say that what happened sucks, and a full explanation and/or apology (accompanied by adequate actions) by the "BW team" would be in order.
However, makes me even more satisfied with sticking strictly to the music and caring nothing whatsoever for all the "merchandising" part of the music business. And by that I mean signed books, too.

Yes, it would be great to get an follow up response from BW management, after the initial denial. Hopefully as entertaining and creative as the reasons for cancelling that UK tour a while back, lol.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: pixletwin on October 26, 2016, 08:59:45 AM
Having roadies and assistants sign stuff for artists is  a long-standing Rock n Roll tradition!


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 26, 2016, 09:18:37 AM
Having roadies and assistants sign stuff for artists is  a long-standing Rock n Roll tradition!
In my opinion, there is a huge difference between Neil Aspinall signing for John, Paul, George and Ringo in 1964, and passing off Brian Wilson autobiographies as genuinely signed in 2016 and charging fans a premium.

Even Jeff Foskett, allegedly, bringing things on the tour bus to be signed and coming back out with "questionable" looking signatures is different--this is more along the lines of the long-standing rock n' roll tradition that you speak of.

I'm baffled by the number of posters minimizing the seriousness of the situation. This is stomach turning and nothing short of fraud.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Ray Lawlor on October 26, 2016, 11:32:11 AM
I am traveling in Europe and just saw this , and I have to comment on the issue ,as it is  to me, really bizarre.  I am speaking solely as a friend ; I do not work for or represent the Wilson organization to be completely clear. All I can tell you is that I sat at the table in the hotel , in Boston when they were playing Boston Symphony Hall, with Brian and Jerry , while Brian signed at least , over 500 pages to be inserted into the book. Diligently, over two days, two boxes of pages that were FedEx'd to the hotel for him to sign ; there was serious time pressure; Brian bitched about it, but did it.   So for me, this whole episode makes zero sense.  That's all I have to contribute.  R


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 26, 2016, 11:38:18 AM
I am traveling in Europe and just saw this , and I have to comment on the issue ,as it is  to me, really bizarre.  I am speaking solely as a friend ; I do not work for or represent the Wilson organization to be completely clear. All I can tell you is that I sat at the table in the hotel , in Boston when they were playing Boston Symphony Hall, with Brian and Jerry , while Brian signed at least , over 500 pages to be inserted into the book. Diligently, over two days, two boxes of pages that were FedEx'd to the hotel for him to sign ; there was serious time pressure; Brian bitched about it, but did it.   So for me, this whole episode makes zero sense.  That's all I have to contribute.  R

Interesting information. I'm not going to cast aspersions on anyone, and while Premiere's quick response is welcomed, I'm not prepared to say a quick response convinces me 100% that they couldn't have possibly had something to do with this.

Is it possible, as I theorized in another thread, that "autopenned" books/pages were prepared for some other purpose (sending to friends or associates as gifts/comps/freebies) and that group of books was mixed up with the real autographs?



Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 26, 2016, 11:44:43 AM
I am traveling in Europe and just saw this , and I have to comment on the issue ,as it is  to me, really bizarre.  I am speaking solely as a friend ; I do not work for or represent the Wilson organization to be completely clear. All I can tell you is that I sat at the table in the hotel , in Boston when they were playing Boston Symphony Hall, with Brian and Jerry , while Brian signed at least , over 500 pages to be inserted into the book. Diligently, over two days, two boxes of pages that were FedEx'd to the hotel for him to sign ; there was serious time pressure; Brian bitched about it, but did it.   So for me, this whole episode makes zero sense.  That's all I have to contribute.  R
Ray, thanks for the insight. So, if I'm to understand correctly, the pages were essentially single sheets that were then to be inserted into the book at a later date. This is pretty common practice.

As I stated previously, I missed out on the limited supply offered by Premiere Collectibles, so I am only going by photos posted here and on Facebook. There is no question that books were sent out bearing identical signatures made via either autopen, stamp or other means. It appears the focus should be shifted towards the publisher. I would be furious, if I were Brian.

However, this doesn't really explain some of the past questionable signatures that were sold at the merch table in the past...


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2016, 11:44:59 AM
Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.

Quote
Is it possible, as I theorized in another thread, that "autopenned" books/pages were prepared for some other purpose (sending to friends or associates as gifts/comps/freebies) and that group of books was mixed up with the real autographs?
  Possibly. No idea, though.


Title: Re: Some
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 26, 2016, 11:59:21 AM
Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.
That's a curious statement. What exactly do you mean? Books were purchased by fans as being genuinely hand signed by Brian. It was discovered that a number of books were shipped out bearing a non-authentic signature. Are you questioning whether that is the case? Premiere Collectibles has admitted it...


Title: Re: Some
Post by: HeyJude on October 26, 2016, 12:03:18 PM
Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.
That's a curious statement. What exactly do you mean? Books were purchased by fans as being genuinely hand signed by Brian. It was discovered that a number of books were shipped out bearing a non-authentic signature. Are you questioning whether that is the case? Premiere Collectibles has admitted it...

I think the idea is that, at this stage, all we know is that some signatures are autopenned/stamped and aren't unique. I don't think anybody can question that.

But nobody knows who is responsible, and assuming Brian's people must be responsible because Premiere responded quickly to concerns and indicated they had nothing to do with it, is not quite strong enough information to absolve Premiere (and/or some other party outside of Brian or Premiere) just yet. It's just jumping the gun a bit.

We also don't actually know how widespread the issue is. How many people have reported having this same signature? Five? Ten? The fact that plenty of apparently legit Brian sigs *are* out there, people have seen Brian signing, and it appears Ray Lawlor specifically saw Brian do a signing, suggest something pretty bizarre and not immediately and with blame that can't be laid quickly at the feet of anyone.

From the consumer point of view, it kinda doesn't matter. You pay a company for something, and they then have to warranty it. So the consumer beef *has* to be with Premiere. If Premiere feels and/or determines someone they relied upon for their supply wronged them, then Premiere has to pursue that.


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2016, 12:05:51 PM
Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.
That's a curious statement. What exactly do you mean? Books were purchased by fans as being genuinely hand signed by Brian. It was discovered that a number of books were shipped out bearing a non-authentic signature. Are you questioning whether that is the case? Premiere Collectibles has admitted it...

I think the idea is that, at this stage, all we know is that some signatures are autopenned/stamped and aren't unique. I don't think anybody can question that.

But nobody knows who is responsible, and assuming Brian's people must be responsible because Premiere responded quickly to concerns and indicated they had nothing to do with it, is not quite strong enough information to absolve Premiere (and/or some other party outside of Brian or Premiere) just yet. It's just jumping the gun a bit.

We also don't actually know how widespread the issue is. How many people have reported having this same signature? Five? Ten? The fact that plenty of apparently legit Brian sigs *are* out there, people have seen Brian signing, and it appears Ray Lawlor specifically saw Brian do a signing *for Premiere*, suggest something pretty bizarre and not immediately and with blame that can't be laid quickly at the feet of anyone.

From the consumer point of view, it kinda doesn't matter. You pay a company for something, and they then have to warranty it. So the consumer beef *has* to be with Premiere. If Premiere feels and/or determines someone they relied upon for their supply wrong them, then Premiere has to pursue that.

Well said...beat me to it!


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Mendota Heights on October 26, 2016, 12:09:43 PM
Does PC have a history of forging signatures?


Title: Re: Some
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 26, 2016, 12:13:35 PM
Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.
That's a curious statement. What exactly do you mean? Books were purchased by fans as being genuinely hand signed by Brian. It was discovered that a number of books were shipped out bearing a non-authentic signature. Are you questioning whether that is the case? Premiere Collectibles has admitted it...

I think the idea is that, at this stage, all we know is that some signatures are autopenned/stamped and aren't unique. I don't think anybody can question that.

But nobody knows who is responsible, and assuming Brian's people must be responsible because Premiere responded quickly to concerns and indicated they had nothing to do with it, is not quite strong enough information to absolve Premiere (and/or some other party outside of Brian or Premiere) just yet. It's just jumping the gun a bit.

We also don't actually know how widespread the issue is. How many people have reported having this same signature? Five? Ten? The fact that plenty of apparently legit Brian sigs *are* out there, people have seen Brian signing, and it appears Ray Lawlor specifically saw Brian do a signing *for Premiere*, suggest something pretty bizarre and not immediately and with blame that can't be laid quickly at the feet of anyone.

From the consumer point of view, it kinda doesn't matter. You pay a company for something, and they then have to warranty it. So the consumer beef *has* to be with Premiere. If Premiere feels and/or determines someone they relied upon for their supply wronged them, then Premiere has to pursue that.

Yes, the consumer's remedy is to go to Premiere Collectibles, no argument there. I think they are the least likely to be responsible for producing the books with bad signatures--they have built an impeccable reputation, to ruin it over one author would be stupid (but not impossible).

To be clear, Ray never said Brian was doing the signing for Premiere, just that he was signing pages to be inserted into books. There also appears to be a company selling on eBay claiming signed books via bookplate:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-Am-Brian-Wilson-Signed-Book-with-Bookplate-Signature-Autographed-Beach-Boys-/282233632828?hash=item41b66f783c:g:vOkAAOSwUEVYDiUM

Bottom line: this is a huge mess!


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 26, 2016, 12:19:18 PM
I'm not sure whether Ray was referring to a signing specifically for Premiere or not, so I've amended my previous post to reflect that. If nothing else, Ray's story reinforces how odd it would be to use an autopen when Brian *does* do mass signings.

Definitely a mess, and it certainly would *seem* like the company wouldn't want to ruin their reputation. As someone else mentioned, one would hope that they would inspect books (if not personally witness signings) to catch stuff like this.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: mikeddonn on October 26, 2016, 01:10:16 PM
Maybe it comes down to who one believes. 

Do Premiere have previous for this?  Don't know, people haven't been suspicious of them.

Have Brian/Beach Boys authorised merchant stands got previous for this?  Yes, without a doubt.

I would have preferred my 80 quid C50 Tour Prog to have had 4 legit signatures rather than 4 legit and one fake.  I kept it because it had the signatures of Mike, Bruce, Al and David.

If Brian signed 500 inserts (and I believe Ray) then they should have been sold directly through his own web store.  It would have avoided the latest mess.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 26, 2016, 01:16:53 PM
It's unquestionably a ridiculous situation. But again, all a customer can really do is get a refund/exchange from the company they bought it from (Premiere). I've seen talk of "class action lawsuits" and "criminal charges" and whatnot, and really none of that applies between customers and Brian or his management. You have to seek your remedy from Premiere (or whomever sold you the book), and then Premiere is the one who has to pursue anyone who sent them bad stuff if that indeed is what has happened.

Yeah, I think one obvious takeaway is that Brian should either sign stuff himself or not sell autographs. One can hope if some shenanigans were going on here, maybe the many obvious steps needed to ensure 100% authenticity will be taken in the future.


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2016, 01:21:45 PM
Quote
If Brian signed 500 inserts (and I believe Ray) then they should have been sold directly through his own web store.  It would have avoided the latest mess.

I've always been leery of 3rd party groups, so yeah if it was done in-house that would eliminate any possible issue.

For a good example of what happens when third parties are involved...look at the fiasco that occurred the last year of Scott Weiland's life, with the meet and greets and merchandise.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: GhostyTMRS on October 26, 2016, 01:27:04 PM
The question I can't seem to find an answer to is this: if there's a batch of legit signed books (as Ray stated here and Debbie KL stated on Brian's message board) then why have a batch of fake ones to begin with? This is not a case of Mal Evans forging the Beatles signatures to give to 12 year old girls who write fan letters, this is a case of fans PAYING for actual autographs and getting ripped off. Who's doing this? PC deny it's them and that Brian's team isn't responding to inquiries. Where is the publisher in all this?



I'm so glad I'm not an autograph collector.  At least I know that my Soupy Sales and William Shatner autographs are real since I was there.

Live long and throw pies.


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2016, 01:41:34 PM
Quote
The question I can't seem to find an answer to is this: if there's a batch of legit signed books (as Ray stated here and Debbie KL stated on Brian's message board) then why have a batch of fake ones to begin with? This is not a case of Mal Evans forging the Beatles signatures to give to 12 year old girls who write fan letters, this is a case of fans PAYING for actual autographs and getting ripped off. Who's doing this? PC deny it's them and that Brian's team isn't responding to inquiries. Where is the publisher in all this?

Valid concerns, but PC denying any knowledge doesn't necessarily rule them out...it may turn out it wasn't entirely intentional.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: acedecade75 on October 26, 2016, 02:09:38 PM
 This type of "ghost signing" has happened before.  At least some of the autographed C50 tour programs that were sold in the merchandise booths for $100 had fake or "ghost signed" Brian Wilson signatures.  We also had an issue in 2013 at the Atlantic City meet and greet.  When we bought the meet and greet package, we were promised an autograph from Brian, Al, and Dave.  At the meet and greet, management refused to allow us to get our own items signed.  Instead, they handed out presigned pictures on cheap computer paper.  The signatures from Al and David were real, but the Brian Wilson signatures had almost certainly NOT been signed by Brian himself.  Many of us complained and Brian's management eventually mailed out authentic autographed photos to those of us who had purchased the package.

 If Brian doesn't feel like signing so many autographs, then his management should not be offering them for sale.  It is fraud!


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2016, 02:19:18 PM
Many times it is not the management that makes such offers, but the promoters.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 26, 2016, 05:27:24 PM
This type of "ghost signing" has happened before.  At least some of the autographed C50 tour programs that were sold in the merchandise booths for $100 had fake or "ghost signed" Brian Wilson signatures.  We also had an issue in 2013 at the Atlantic City meet and greet.  When we bought the meet and greet package, we were promised an autograph from Brian, Al, and Dave.  At the meet and greet, management refused to allow us to get our own items signed.  Instead, they handed out presigned pictures on cheap computer paper.  The signatures from Al and David were real, but the Brian Wilson signatures had almost certainly NOT been signed by Brian himself.  Many of us complained and Brian's management eventually mailed out authentic autographed photos to those of us who had purchased the package.

 If Brian doesn't feel like signing so many autographs, then his management should not be offering them for sale.  It is fraud!

Yup, here's one of those photos up for bid on eBay. Whose to blame for that?

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/Foskett%20Brian_zpsyayk9vm6.jpg)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beach-Boys-Brian-Wilson-Al-Jardine-David-Marks-Signed-Autographed-Picture-I-am-/272419712915?hash=item3f6d7aef93:g:mRsAAOSwLF1YB86s


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2016, 05:44:39 PM
Many times it is not the management that makes such offers, but the promoters.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: acedecade75 on October 26, 2016, 05:45:09 PM
This type of "ghost signing" has happened before.  At least some of the autographed C50 tour programs that were sold in the merchandise booths for $100 had fake or "ghost signed" Brian Wilson signatures.  We also had an issue in 2013 at the Atlantic City meet and greet.  When we bought the meet and greet package, we were promised an autograph from Brian, Al, and Dave.  At the meet and greet, management refused to allow us to get our own items signed.  Instead, they handed out presigned pictures on cheap computer paper.  The signatures from Al and David were real, but the Brian Wilson signatures had almost certainly NOT been signed by Brian himself.  Many of us complained and Brian's management eventually mailed out authentic autographed photos to those of us who had purchased the package.

 If Brian doesn't feel like signing so many autographs, then his management should not be offering them for sale.  It is fraud!

Yup, here's one of those photos up for bid on eBay. Whose to blame for that?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beach-Boys-Brian-Wilson-Al-Jardine-David-Marks-Signed-Autographed-Picture-I-am-/272419712915?hash=item3f6d7aef93:g:mRsAAOSwLF1YB86s

 This is exactly what they gave us at the Atlantic City show.  If I remember correctly, there was so much question about Brian's signature on these crappy photos that somebody submitted one for authentication to a very well know third party authenticator, and Brian's signature failed the authentication.  It certainly looks suspicious to me and different than the 10 or so autographs that I've personally watched Brian sign over the years.

 If somebody asks a band member for a favor and the item comes back with a "ghost signature", it is not a good thing, but when a business, be it a promoter or whoever, actually sells you something that is suppose to include a hand signed autograph from a person and then delivers something else, it's fraud.  How could a company who deals in authentic autographs not notice that all of the signatures were exactly the same and obviously not authentic?  And who though that this would get by the public in the first place?


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2016, 05:58:47 PM
Quote
How could a company who deals in authentic autographs not notice that all of the signatures were exactly the same and obviously not authentic?  And who though that this would get by the public in the first place?

Million dollar question. Also, keep in mind that artist management very rarely has *anything* do with situations like this, whether it's a signing, meet and greet, whatever. Usually handled by the promoters/touring company/publisher/whatever. You could probably name the number of artists who handle it "in-house" on Mickey Mouse's left hand.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 26, 2016, 06:33:24 PM
Re-reading those Facebook conversations, and it seems Premiere deals with the publisher (so it's not like Brian buys a bunch of copies and signs them and sells them directly to Premiere), so someone at the publisher could be involved and/or the cause of this.


Title: Re: Some
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 26, 2016, 06:34:46 PM
Quote
How could a company who deals in authentic autographs not notice that all of the signatures were exactly the same and obviously not authentic?  And who though that this would get by the public in the first place?

Million dollar question. Also, keep in mind that artist management very rarely has *anything* do with situations like this, whether it's a signing, meet and greet, whatever. Usually handled by the promoters/touring company/publisher/whatever. You could probably name the number of artists who handle it "in-house" on Mickey Mouse's left hand.
Both meet and greets I participated in within the past year with Brian were fully run by his team. Jerry Weiss ran through the rules, brought people in the room, handled getting things signed, etc.

Same with Mike & Bruce, there assistance Tara Ricart is the person who runs the whole show.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 26, 2016, 06:40:16 PM
So the handlers that take fans to and from soundchecks and other VIP events are all employed by Brian?


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2016, 06:42:23 PM
Quote
Both meet and greets I participated in within the past year with Brian were fully run by his team. Jerry Weiss ran through the rules, brought people in the room, handled getting things signed, etc.

Right...my comment was more of a general nature...very few artists handle *everything* in house. In Brian's case, yes, the meet and greets to my knowledge are in-house (same with Mike and Bruce) . With the signatures, it appears to be the publisher.

Other artists are different. I keep using Scott Weiland (RIP) as an example mainly because I can speak more first-hand rather than third-hand....but his book signings were in-house, but the meet and greets certainly were not (and other things were promised like the opportunity to play paintball with him, which led to a lawsuit...).

edit


PledgeMusic....that was the name of the third-party that Scott had issues with.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 26, 2016, 07:16:27 PM
I think the autograph company got greedy and used the autopens to meet extra demand for signed books.


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2016, 07:28:14 PM
Would not surprise me one bit. And heck, it could've been someone with them  acting on their own, too.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Bill Ed on October 26, 2016, 08:12:19 PM
Having roadies and assistants sign stuff for artists is  a long-standing Rock n Roll tradition!
In my opinion, there is a huge difference between Neil Aspinall signing for John, Paul, George and Ringo in 1964, and passing off Brian Wilson autobiographies as genuinely signed in 2016 and charging fans a premium.

Even Jeff Foskett, allegedly, bringing things on the tour bus to be signed and coming back out with "questionable" looking signatures is different--this is more along the lines of the long-standing rock n' roll tradition that you speak of.

I'm baffled by the number of posters minimizing the seriousness of the situation. Brian (or his team) have violated the trust of his biggest fans. This is stomach turning and nothing short of fraud.

Marty, I am more than a little confused. What is the huge difference between Neil Aspinall forging Beatle signatures and what's going on with Brian's book? I wouldn't begin to defend either.

It seems that the "Beatle-centrics" are all over this one.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Custom Machine on October 27, 2016, 12:01:29 AM

Marty, I am more than a little confused. What is the huge difference between Neil Aspinall forging Beatle signatures and what's going on with Brian's book? I wouldn't begin to defend either. ...


I'd say the difference is that in the case of I Am Brian Wilson, fans are being asked to pay a significant premium for the book, with the guarantee of an authentic signature which is backed by a Certificate of Authenticity.

Also, I Am Brian Wilson was printed with a woven spine, with the result that the very first sheet, which is the page that was used for the autopenned signature, and the second sheet, which is the one Brian typically signs in person, were both part of a larger printed sheet which, when the book was being printed, was folded, woven together, cut, and bound into the book. I'm not at all calling into question Ray Lawyer's account, but in such a case Brian wouldn't have actually signed his book, but rather a page that would have been later pasted into the finished book, which would duplicate a page that was already bound into the book during the normal printing process, giving the book, IMO, a less than authentic presentation. (Inserting a pre-signed page into a book with a non-woven glued spine, prior to the pages being glued to the spine, could work, although it would slow down the production process.)

Here's a similar autopenned story that broke a few days ago concerning books with "signatures" from Wayne Gretzky.

Oops, forgot the link. Here it is: http://globalnews.ca/news/3019789/books-with-fake-wayne-gretzky-autographs-sold-by-indigo/


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: ArchStanton on October 27, 2016, 04:17:10 AM
The only Brian autograph I have is from the PBS DVD from last year. Any chance that's even legit? I'm not a big autograph guy, but that was kind of cool to have as a nice bonus.

When I was a kid, I wrote some ballplayers letters and got a few back. Years later, I found out that Nolan Ryan used auto-pen unless you sent him a big check for his charity, which a kid like me had no idea about. Really made me look at him differently. He should've just sent an unsigned picture like Tony Gwynn did.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 06:15:34 AM
The only Brian autograph I have is from the PBS DVD from last year. Any chance that's even legit? I'm not a big autograph guy, but that was kind of cool to have as a nice bonus.

When I was a kid, I wrote some ballplayers letters and got a few back. Years later, I found out that Nolan Ryan used auto-pen unless you sent him a big check for his charity, which a kid like me had no idea about. Really made me look at him differently. He should've just sent an unsigned picture like Tony Gwynn did.
The autographs included in the PBS DVD have never been questioned. Like any autograph, unless you see it signed personally, there is a chance it was not signed by the person. However, I have little doubt that if you sent the PBS DVD autograph into a third party authenticator, such as PSA/DNA or JSA, it would come back authentic.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 27, 2016, 06:18:17 AM
The only Brian autograph I have is from the PBS DVD from last year. Any chance that's even legit? I'm not a big autograph guy, but that was kind of cool to have as a nice bonus.

When I was a kid, I wrote some ballplayers letters and got a few back. Years later, I found out that Nolan Ryan used auto-pen unless you sent him a big check for his charity, which a kid like me had no idea about. Really made me look at him differently. He should've just sent an unsigned picture like Tony Gwynn did.

As I mentioned in one thread or another, I examined my PBS signature and compared it to several others (a number were on eBay), and they are all A) Different from each other and B) Pretty clearly present-day style Brian sigs with somewhat shaky and spidery writing.

Someone who bought two copies of the Premiere signed edition of Brian's new book posted pics of both of their copies to that same Facebook discussion seen in an earlier post, and they clearly have "real" signatures. The two are different from each other, and both are different from the "autopen" signatures. Clearly, some "real" signatures were given to and sold by Premiere. Again, this is rather odd and in my mind at least leaves open the possibility that someone created autopen signatures either outside the purview of whomever procured the "real" signatures, and/or autopen signatures were created for some other purpose (less nefarious perhaps but still unfortunate) and were erroneously sent to Premiere.

We really have no idea how many real or fake signatures were sold by Premiere. It appears five "autopen" signatures have been uncovered on that Facebook discussion (three individuals posting pics of their own, and then the original discussion starter also pointing to two eBay auctions), while three copies posted in that discussion by people who bought theirs show apparently legit autographs. Obviously, the entire discussion there on Facebook only involves a very small fraction of people who bought copies, so we have no way of knowing if 1% or 5% or 50% or more or less of the copies are autopen.

This is a tough thing to figure out, because the "it's so blatant they had to know it would be caught" argument works both for or against any entity in this equation, whether it's Premiere or the publisher or Brian's management, or some employee tangentially or directly involved in any of those operations. It's so weird and so obvious and blatant that I still feel it leaves open the possibility that while "autopen" (or stamped, etc.) sigs can't be "accidentally" created, there may have been no intention to actually sell these autopen signatures as part of the Premiere release.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 27, 2016, 06:24:10 AM
I also have to say that I get both the differences and similarities between Aspinall and Evans (or someone else) faking Beatles sigs in 1964 versus Premiere selling them in 2016.

From a consumer point of view, the issues are very different.

From a moral/ethical point of view, one could argue it's all the same. If anything, in the 60s they knowingly sent fake autographs out to fans and certainly implied they were legit (and this also created authentication/memorabilia issues decades into the future). Whereas, with this thing with Brian's book, the chain of events at least at this stage leaves open the possibility that they created stamped or autopenned signatures for some non-commercial purpose where a real autograph *wasn't* warrantied, and those copies accidentally made their way to Premiere. I think this sliver of a benefit of the doubt is worth offering considering Brian regularly signs real autographs and that Premiere was provided and did sell "real" autographs alongside apparent stamped/autopenned versions.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 06:34:28 AM

Marty, I am more than a little confused. What is the huge difference between Neil Aspinall forging Beatle signatures and what's going on with Brian's book? I wouldn't begin to defend either. ...


I'd say the difference is that in the case of I Am Brian Wilson, fans are being asked to pay a significant premium for the book, with the guarantee of an authentic signature which is backed by a Certificate of Authenticity.


Custom Machine has essentially nailed my thinking. Still deceptive and unfortunate, but there is a huge difference between secretarial signing something in 1964 and passing off an autopen/stamp/facsimile as hand-signed in 2016. A couple of points:

1. In the 1950s and 1960s (and even today), it was common practice for athletes/celebrities to use secretaries, stamps, printed signatures, etc. to meet fan demand for their autographs. Many team signed baseballs from the 1950s and 1960s have "clubhouse signatures" to complete the ball. There was no multi-billion dollar memorabilia industry that truly monetized autographs.
2. There has always been a risk of requesting autographs through the mail or via a fan club. To this day, autopen, stamps, pre-printed autographs are used to meet demand. I'm not crazy about the practice, but if they aren't charging for autographs, they are just trying to satisfy fan demand even if it has little or no value.
3. I hate that in 2012-2013, someone close to Brian (most speculate Jeff Foskett) would ghost/secretarial sign for Brian. In the case of taking items on the bus for fans and returning them with the Foskett signature--I don't like it, but there was no money exchanged. The programs, CDs, photos that fans purchased with the Foskett signature is fraud, plain and simple.

The facts as they currently stand:

1. Premiere Collectibles sold books purported to be hand signed by Brian Wilson that turned out to be not genuine.

Anything else is speculation. I think the reason people generally pointed the finger back to the book publisher or Brian's management is because Premiere Collectibles has been in business for many years and the hit to their reputation would not be worth sending out fake signed books. On the flipside, you have a history (C50, 2013 AC gig, etc.) of not genuine signatures of Brian being sold to fans. Everyone can draw their own conclusions...


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 06:42:47 AM
So the handlers that take fans to and from soundchecks and other VIP events are all employed by Brian?
I do not claim to be an expert, but I participated in two different meet & greets at two separate venues 200 miles apart and they were run by the same two people. The young female that checked everyone in and moved people from soundcheck to meet & greet (don't remember her name) and Jerry Weiss, who seemed to be in charge of the meet & greet process.

Quote
Both meet and greets I participated in within the past year with Brian were fully run by his team. Jerry Weiss ran through the rules, brought people in the room, handled getting things signed, etc.

Right...my comment was more of a general nature...very few artists handle *everything* in house. In Brian's case, yes, the meet and greets to my knowledge are in-house (same with Mike and Bruce).

Okay, fair enough, but when people were raising past issues with non-genuine Brian Wilson autographs, your response these things are usually setup and/or run by promoters and not management. Then when I pointed out that it appears Brian's meet & greets are run by his management you backpedaled and said you knew that.

So, who is to blame for the fake signatures on the C50 programs, Gershwin posters, the AC photos? Your previous answer seemed to try to shift the blame to "promoters" and away from anyone connected to Brian. Can you try to be objective?


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 27, 2016, 07:01:19 AM
Who "hosts" the VIP events or who is the on-site contact person isn't necessarily the same as who is "running" it. Technically, it is the promoter/ticket seller who is running the thing. You're not paying Brian directly for either the concert tickets or the VIP tickets/passes.

So it's the promoter/seller who has to warranty the things they're selling you, and they in turn contract or make agreements with others to facilitate whatever it is they're selling. If Brian's on-site team are running things, they're technically agents not of Brian but of the promoter/VIP ticket seller (who in turn may have an agreement directly with those individuals, or who may have an agreement with Brian's production team to provide those people).

It ends up being a bit like the Premiere thing. The consumer beef has to be with the entity they paid (Premiere, or the ticket seller/promoter), and that entity in turn is the one who needs to deal with Brian's team.

The whole thing of monetizing "face time" or autographs with celebrities is odd. That doesn't absolve anyone of faking autographs, but after a number of years of questions about autographs, and at least occasional but recurring odd backstage VIP encounter stories, I can't fathom shelling out hundreds of dollars for such stuff.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 27, 2016, 07:43:07 AM
I know what's been reported so far, that's it. It doesn't make sense at all. There is much that needs to be sorted out. If it means anything, I'd suggest yet again that collective deep cleansing breath at least until the parties directly involved have a chance to investigate exactly what happened and how it happened.

Until then, I'd also suggest Marty, KDS, and others who write as if they already built the gallows and are waiting for the condemned to march up the stairs, take that deep breath and consider getting more information.

And consider these "knowns" which I'll post for discussion. Are they the exact reasons and causes? Of course not. The people involved probably won't know what the hell happened until more is investigated. But:

Ray Lawlor was there as Brian personally signed, and posted what he saw. That's fact. Brian signed and those signatures were delivered.

- Point 1 - Could that suggest Brian and Brian's "management" fulfilled their part of the deal? Yes. Of course. Signatures done and delivered. Next.

Signatures go to the publisher to be inserted into the books.

- Point 2 - It sounds as if customers of Premiere received the real autographs. So the publisher had to have fulfilled their part of the deal in this case.  What about the other autographs, the "auto" signed ones? That's where you'd ask the publisher and the publisher could access their delivery and manufacturing records and work orders and the whole paper trail to see what was done, by whom, and when. If the order was for "x amount" of books to get the autographs, and those were done, then they lived up to the deal.

The vendors and third-party sellers like Premiere take pre-orders from customers for these autographed copies, they have a purchase order for "x amount" of books to be shipped to them, they are billed for it (assuming), and they inventory the copies. Assuming they would await the order of autographed copies pre-ordered by their customers, they remove them from their stock of x-amount of books, then ship to the customers who paid.

- Point 3 -

Did Premiere inspect the autographed copies when they took the shipment of autographed books pre-ordered by their customers? Did they notice a discrepancy in the quality of the signatures? I doubt the order was in the 10,000's...so did they have a QC inspection of the items before packing and shipping them?

Maybe they did and the signatures were fine on that initial order. So these were shipped. We know that some customers are posting their signature copies that are legit - and would be the ones Brian signed and was witnessed signing by his friends like Ray.

So what happened to cause this mess after that initial run, which I can only assume checked out OK, was inspected and OK'ed by Premiere, and delivered to those customers who placed the initial pre-orders and got their copies which they have now been posting online as examples of the legit signatures?

Brian and "his management" signed what they agreed to sign. They delivered these and the publisher put the books together. Still want to hang them before knowing more than exactly what has been reported, which is simply Brian signed x amount of copies, people were there who watched him sign x amount of copies, and those were handed over as agreed to be put into the books. Done. As far as they know, I'm assuming, they delivered x amount of signatures as agreed and are possibly just as angry and trying to figure out what happened after that as everyone else.


- Point 4 -

According to what I've seen posted, Premiere sold out of the initial pre-order run. Then they posted that they would be trying to get more copies to sell, and later reported they did.

Was it this second order by Premiere that saw the problem present itself? If so, did Premiere inspect the copies they had received in this second refill order to make sure everything was up to standard? I'd say if all of this is widespread as fans are posting these signatures in question, perhaps Premiere dropped the ball in their quality control and shipping/fulfillment department by not inspecting what they would be packing and shipping to paying customers. But that's just my opinion...like everyone else, I have no idea what happened and am waiting to hear more.

More importantly...WHERE did Premiere get this second order after the initial run sold out via pre-order?

If I were looking into this, I'd ask for all purchase orders, invoices, shipping and receiving records, and listings of everyone whose hands and job duties would have contacted these books with the questionable autographs.

The beauty of the digital age is the ability to track shipments, work orders, and every step of the manufacturing and delivery process in minutes versus chasing paper trails and file folders packed in storage facilities.

When all is added up, it should trace the path of the initial order, the subsequent refill order, all communications between sales, shipping, manufacturing, etc...and it will most likely find whatever issues caused something like this to happen.

Or maybe the answer will be more simple than that.

Until then, again I'd consider taking a coffee break from the gallows-building and see what develops.



Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 07:48:14 AM
Who "hosts" the VIP events or who is the on-site contact person isn't necessarily the same as who is "running" it. Technically, it is the promoter/ticket seller who is running the thing. You're not paying Brian directly for either the concert tickets or the VIP tickets/passes.

So it's the promoter/seller who has to warranty the things they're selling you, and they in turn contract or make agreements with others to facilitate whatever it is they're selling. If Brian's on-site team are running things, they're technically agents not of Brian but of the promoter/VIP ticket seller (who in turn may have an agreement directly with those individuals, or who may have an agreement with Brian's production team to provide those people).

It ends up being a bit like the Premiere thing. The consumer beef has to be with the entity they paid (Premiere, or the ticket seller/promoter), and that entity in turn is the one who needs to deal with Brian's team.

The whole thing of monetizing "face time" or autographs with celebrities is odd. That doesn't absolve anyone of faking autographs, but after a number of years of questions about autographs, and at least occasional but recurring odd backstage VIP encounter stories, I can't fathom shelling out hundreds of dollars for such stuff.
Seems like a lot of technicalities and legal speak to absolve Brian's team from having any responsibility. Did I buy my tickets for the concert at the Four Winds Casino or Fox Theatre from Brian directly? No. Was anyone from the venue involved with checking me in or handing out laminates, posters, sheet music, etc.? No. That was all handled by Brian's team. Again, two different venues 200 miles apart.

I can also tell you with the first meet & greet I participated in, when I called the venue for details, they said they don't run them, they are waiting for information from Brian's team (was told the same thing by the venue ahead of my Mike & Bruce meet & greet).

In the case of Mike & Bruce's meet & greets, you purchase them directly from mikelove.com - no promoter involved at all.

Jerry Weiss has gotten name checked a lot recently, whether it's high profile interviews promoting the book or Brian naming him on several occasions in the book. Are you suggesting he isn't on Brian's payroll?


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 07:59:54 AM
I know what's been reported so far, that's it. It doesn't make sense at all. There is much that needs to be sorted out. If it means anything, I'd suggest yet again that collective deep cleansing breath at least until the parties directly involved have a chance to investigate exactly what happened and how it happened.

Until then, I'd also suggest Marty, KDS, and others who write as if they already built the gallows and are waiting for the condemned to march up the stairs, take that deep breath and consider getting more information.

And consider these "knowns" which I'll post for discussion. Are they the exact reasons and causes? Of course not. The people involved probably won't know what the hell happened until more is investigated. But:

Ray Lawlor was there as Brian personally signed, and posted what he saw. That's fact. Brian signed and those signatures were delivered.

- Point 1 - Could that suggest Brian and Brian's "management" fulfilled their part of the deal? Yes. Of course. Signatures done and delivered. Next.

Signatures go to the publisher to be inserted into the books.

- Point 2 - It sounds as if customers of Premiere received the real autographs. So the publisher had to have fulfilled their part of the deal in this case.  What about the other autographs, the "auto" signed ones? That's where you'd ask the publisher and the publisher could access their delivery and manufacturing records and work orders and the whole paper trail to see what was done, by whom, and when. If the order was for "x amount" of books to get the autographs, and those were done, then they lived up to the deal.

The vendors and third-party sellers like Premiere take pre-orders from customers for these autographed copies, they have a purchase order for "x amount" of books to be shipped to them, they are billed for it (assuming), and they inventory the copies. Assuming they would await the order of autographed copies pre-ordered by their customers, they remove them from their stock of x-amount of books, then ship to the customers who paid.

- Point 3 -

Did Premiere inspect the autographed copies when they took the shipment of autographed books pre-ordered by their customers? Did they notice a discrepancy in the quality of the signatures? I doubt the order was in the 10,000's...so did they have a QC inspection of the items before packing and shipping them?

Maybe they did and the signatures were fine on that initial order. So these were shipped. We know that some customers are posting their signature copies that are legit - and would be the ones Brian signed and was witnessed signing by his friends like Ray.

So what happened to cause this mess after that initial run, which I can only assume checked out OK, was inspected and OK'ed by Premiere, and delivered to those customers who placed the initial pre-orders and got their copies which they have now been posting online as examples of the legit signatures?

Brian and "his management" signed what they agreed to sign. They delivered these and the publisher put the books together. Still want to hang them before knowing more than exactly what has been reported, which is simply Brian signed x amount of copies, people were there who watched him sign x amount of copies, and those were handed over as agreed to be put into the books. Done. As far as they know, I'm assuming, they delivered x amount of signatures as agreed and are possibly just as angry and trying to figure out what happened after that as everyone else.


- Point 4 -

According to what I've seen posted, Premiere sold out of the initial pre-order run. Then they posted that they would be trying to get more copies to sell, and later reported they did.

Was it this second order by Premiere that saw the problem present itself? If so, did Premiere inspect the copies they had received in this second refill order to make sure everything was up to standard? I'd say if all of this is widespread as fans are posting these signatures in question, perhaps Premiere dropped the ball in their quality control and shipping/fulfillment department by not inspecting what they would be packing and shipping to paying customers. But that's just my opinion...like everyone else, I have no idea what happened and am waiting to hear more.

More importantly...WHERE did Premiere get this second order after the initial run sold out via pre-order?

If I were looking into this, I'd ask for all purchase orders, invoices, shipping and receiving records, and listings of everyone whose hands and job duties would have contacted these books with the questionable autographs.

The beauty of the digital age is the ability to track shipments, work orders, and every step of the manufacturing and delivery process in minutes versus chasing paper trails and file folders packed in storage facilities.

When all is added up, it should trace the path of the initial order, the subsequent refill order, all communications between sales, shipping, manufacturing, etc...and it will most likely find whatever issues caused something like this to happen.

Or maybe the answer will be more simple than that.

Until then, again I'd consider taking a coffee break from the gallows-building and see what develops.


I agree, those are the facts that we know at this point. I don't have a lot of faith that we will get the full story and nobody comes out of this looking good. However, the discussion has primarily shifted to the multiple instances that non-genuine autographs have been sold to Brian's fans.

Care to comment on the bogus C50 programs, Gershwin posters or the Atlantic City photos that had to be replaced? We never received explanations from the source, but there is a consensus that Brian didn't sign a good deal of autographs that were sold as the genuine article.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 08:18:46 AM
Presented without comment, a response from Premiere Collectibles:

"Our goal has always been to make genuine, autographed copies of popular books available to the public. We have had the privilege of forming many great relationships that make this happen. For a lot of signings, we are able to work directly with the author’s team and we have our staff on site to witness the signing. In other instances, the publisher is able to arrange a signing for us when the author visits their office. In this case, the publisher arranged the signing for us and sent the books to the author to be signed. We do examine the books and, unfortunately, we made a mistake with this one since the non-genuine copies were mixed in with authentic copies. We believe in our team and we are taking measure to ensure that this never happens again.

We are doing our best to ensure that all non-genuine copies are returned. All purchasers have been emailed so they can check their copy. If anyone spots a non-genuine copy with our COA on any marketplace, please alert the seller and direct them to us. We will buy back the book from them, even if they were not the original purchaser.

We agree that offering a replacement would have been a better resolution, and we wish that were possible. We have been unable to get any response or alternative resolution from the author, so replacements are likely out of the question."


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 27, 2016, 08:19:08 AM
Seems like a lot of technicalities and legal speak to absolve Brian's team from having any responsibility. Did I buy my tickets for the concert at the Four Winds Casino or Fox Theatre from Brian directly? No. Was anyone from the venue involved with checking me in or handing out laminates, posters, sheet music, etc.? No. That was all handled by Brian's team. Again, two different venues 200 miles apart.

I can also tell you with the first meet & greet I participated in, when I called the venue for details, they said they don't run them, they are waiting for information from Brian's team (was told the same thing by the venue ahead of my Mike & Bruce meet & greet).

In the case of Mike & Bruce's meet & greets, you purchase them directly from mikelove.com - no promoter involved at all.

Jerry Weiss has gotten name checked a lot recently, whether it's high profile interviews promoting the book or Brian naming him on several occasions in the book. Are you suggesting he isn't on Brian's payroll?

I'm not sure why the leap is being made to Brian's team not having "any responsibility." I'm simply laying out that it's unlikely that it's as simple as Brian's team running the whole thing themselves simply because it's Brian's "people" you come into contact with. To the degree Brian's "people" are involved, they are essentially acting as agents for the entity who sold the tickets.

I wouldn't expect a venue to handle anything to do with a meet and greet. They rent the venue out. If you bought a ticket from the venue's box office, you'd be dealing with them for any issues concerning returns/refunds, etc.

When you buy a VIP package, you have to beef with the entity who sold it to you.

If bad autographs or any other problems arise and Brian's "team" is the cause, that's for the promoter/vendor of the VIP packages to take up with his team. That's not to say that if you asked one of Brian's on-site people about a problem you had, they wouldn't necessarily be able to facilitate a solution. Obviously, ideally all the entities would be working together to help each other and fans.

Sounds like Mike sells his VIP packages direct. So if you had a beef with anything to do with that, you would indeed go straight to him (or his website of course).

The possibility of selling fake autographs can't be excused by a "buyer beware" warning. But some "Caveat Emptor" isn't out of line here either. I've found selling autographs and selling face time and photographs to be odd from the get-go, rife with awkward grey areas in terms of what constitutes complaining about.

I think raising this Premiere autograph issue is important.

But eventually, the continued hand-wringing over one's perceived feeling that Brian's team has a questionable track record might be met with the suggestion that the solution may be to stop buying these premium packages and services.

Premiere has apparently already offered to remedy the situation regardless of whose fault it is. So customers are being taken care of. Beyond that, the solution in the future may be to just not buy this stuff.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 27, 2016, 08:30:00 AM
Presented without comment, a response from Premiere Collectibles:

"Our goal has always been to make genuine, autographed copies of popular books available to the public. We have had the privilege of forming many great relationships that make this happen. For a lot of signings, we are able to work directly with the author’s team and we have our staff on site to witness the signing. In other instances, the publisher is able to arrange a signing for us when the author visits their office. In this case, the publisher arranged the signing for us and sent the books to the author to be signed. We do examine the books and, unfortunately, we made a mistake with this one since the non-genuine copies were mixed in with authentic copies. We believe in our team and we are taking measure to ensure that this never happens again.

We are doing our best to ensure that all non-genuine copies are returned. All purchasers have been emailed so they can check their copy. If anyone spots a non-genuine copy with our COA on any marketplace, please alert the seller and direct them to us. We will buy back the book from them, even if they were not the original purchaser.

We agree that offering a replacement would have been a better resolution, and we wish that were possible. We have been unable to get any response or alternative resolution from the author, so replacements are likely out of the question."

I think it's great that they're offering as much of a solution as possible, and customers are being made whole again on their purchase.

This doesn't yet explain how the "non-genuine" signatures got mixed in. I'm still curious to know. Apparently Premiere admits that A) They *do* inspect books (I would assume they inspect for a lot of things, including smeared ink, torn pages, etc.) and B) They missed this.

I'm curious if one of the specific things they check for are stamped/autopenned signatures. If their inspectors do have an eye for that, I then also wonder how rampant this problem was within their run of books.

Also worth keeping mind is this: Let's say that Brian's team knows they didn't do any stamped/autopenned signatures and therefore believe the publisher is at fault. They have an ongoing relationship with that publisher (the book is doing well on the charts, etc.), so it may be a very touchy issue between Brian and the publisher to discuss what happened here. (And that's certainly also true if the publisher believes they didn't do anything wrong as well).

Ideally, yes, a statement from Brian saying he doesn't own an autopen, didn't use one, and only shipped to his publisher authentic signed pages would help.

If the publisher wasn't the go-between between Premiere and Brian, I'd be much less open to giving someone in Brian's operation the benefit of the doubt. But in this case, it's still pretty murky.

Even those who feel Brian has a bad track record with autographs have suggested another person signing for him rather than an autopen or stamp. So the expense and logistics of using an autopen seem almost comically excessive.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 08:36:54 AM
This type of "ghost signing" has happened before.  At least some of the autographed C50 tour programs that were sold in the merchandise booths for $100 had fake or "ghost signed" Brian Wilson signatures.  We also had an issue in 2013 at the Atlantic City meet and greet.  When we bought the meet and greet package, we were promised an autograph from Brian, Al, and Dave.  At the meet and greet, management refused to allow us to get our own items signed.  Instead, they handed out presigned pictures on cheap computer paper.  The signatures from Al and David were real, but the Brian Wilson signatures had almost certainly NOT been signed by Brian himself.  Many of us complained and Brian's management eventually mailed out authentic autographed photos to those of us who had purchased the package.

If Brian doesn't feel like signing so many autographs, then his management should not be offering them for sale.  It is fraud!

I've had some great e-mail conversations with acedecade75 in the past and he has extensive knowledge on Beach Boys related collectibles. These books are just the latest example. For the sake of providing information to fans, here are "Brian" signatures that many connect to Foskett:

C50 program
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/BW%20JF%2001_zpsht4qwzao.jpg)

2013 Atlantic City meet & greet
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/Foskett%20Brian_zpsyayk9vm6.jpg)


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 27, 2016, 08:52:43 AM
Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 09:46:09 AM
Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.

Take a second to read the post above where I quote acedecade75 and provided photos. It certainly is possible that Brian bears no blame in the current situation with Premiere Collectibles and PC has taken responsibility for their part in the screw up. The fact that so many people pointed directly to Brian or his "team" has everything to do with past actions. If you know nothing about something, read up and learn. Keeping your head in the sand on the issue is no excuse. Feel free to comment once you become more educated on this particular subject.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 27, 2016, 09:57:41 AM
It's not as if there's a long, impeccably researched treatise on Brian's autographs of recent years. There are scattered discussions, and some pretty strong circumstantial evidence that some of Brian's signatures from recent years aren't legit.

No explanation or denial seems forthcoming, whether one is warranted or not. So then what?

Now, I'm well aware that I've tread over many topics on this board over the years where no further definitive answers seem forthcoming (C50 itself for instance, ironically), but I think those topics come back up because there are still some disagreements among fans (and from members of the band) concerning how that all went down.

On the other hand, I haven't really seen anyone claim that all of Brian's C50 signatures are legit. I think most acknowledge some seemed fishy. So what's left to say or argue? Accountability isn't apparently going to happen (assuming there is blame to be had, which I think in some cases there has to be).

The Premiere situation has some stark similarities to previous accusations of bad signatures, and also some mitigating circumstances that make things far more murky compared to the contested C50 signatures.

We can't control what is signed or not signed, and we can't make anyone admit to anything or take responsibility. So yeah, there's a point at which you gotta stop buying the stuff (both to protest if you feel the person generating the stuff is dishonest, and to avoid getting wonky merchandise going forward) and then there's not much else that can be done.



Title: Re: Some \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 27, 2016, 10:06:22 AM
Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.

Take a second to read the post above where I quote acedecade75 and provided photos. It certainly is possible that Brian bears no blame in the current situation with Premiere Collectibles and PC has taken responsibility for their part in the screw up. The fact that so many people pointed directly to Brian or his "team" has everything to do with past actions. If you know nothing about something, read up and learn. Keeping your head in the sand on the issue is no excuse. Feel free to comment once you become more educated on this particular subject.

Marty, spare the bile and read the Facebook comments if you want to read the comments about what you're asking about, these signatures from 2012 and 2013. I don't know anything about how that happened or what happened other than what fans have been posting. What could I say? I have the same info posted by fans as most of us do. If you want to read what others say could have happened, read them. Whatever I say about it is coming from the same bleacher seats as everyone else reading the posts.

Now, my turn. You've been trying to hang Brian and his management over this book situation here and elsewhere. You've even gone so far as to put out a suggestion that Brian committed fraud. To me, it sounds like you have an axe to grind beyond this book situation, and you're using this to help sharpen that axe. And you're putting information out there which you don't know, but are going with anyway.

Look at what has come out so far. Brian signed what he agreed to sign, people witnessed him signing those hundreds of autographs (see Ray Lawlor's post, he was there and saw Brian sign them), and they were handed over to be put into the books. Whatever happened after that part of the process that led to these issues is out of Brian's hands, after the autographs were handed over as agreed, and should make your comments suggesting Brian committed fraud completely moot and false. Some of Premier's original comments back that up. On Brian's end, on BriMel's end, according to the posts, Brian signed them and they were delivered. Done deal.

If you want to tie this into some issues from 2012 and 2013, you're doing a solid job of it. Pursue those issues, find the info and get whatever names you're looking for, but don't try to shift topics and suggest Brian and "his team" are involved in fraud and deceit based on what people who may or may not still be part of that team had done 4 years ago.

It's obvious you are trying to hang this on Brian and "those around him" (to borrow a phrase from another thread), and when the strong possibility is raised that they may not have been aware of this after handing over the signatures Brian actually signed and was witnessed signing, you try to connect this to previous incidents and cases which may or may not have involved people who are no longer in the "those around Brian" category.

You want to make jokes about my head in the sand instead of trying to hash out the issue at hand, which you have been pounding on multiple forums? You want to talk about the issue of these auto-pen signatures getting into Premier's supply line and possible ways that could have happened, or try to link it to the new set of issues from previous years which you've brought up and are trying to shift the discussion toward since Premier's statement? Get your facts straight and check your grudges at the door first, and we'll talk facts. Deal?



Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Robbie Mac on October 27, 2016, 10:39:54 AM
That screen shot of the Facebook thread clearly points out that no one is  blaming BriMel. 


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 11:00:24 AM
Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.

Take a second to read the post above where I quote acedecade75 and provided photos. It certainly is possible that Brian bears no blame in the current situation with Premiere Collectibles and PC has taken responsibility for their part in the screw up. The fact that so many people pointed directly to Brian or his "team" has everything to do with past actions. If you know nothing about something, read up and learn. Keeping your head in the sand on the issue is no excuse. Feel free to comment once you become more educated on this particular subject.

Marty, spare the bile and read the Facebook comments if you want to read the comments about what you're asking about, these signatures from 2012 and 2013. I don't know anything about how that happened or what happened other than what fans have been posting. What could I say? I have the same info posted by fans as most of us do. If you want to read what others say could have happened, read them. Whatever I say about it is coming from the same bleacher seats as everyone else reading the posts.

Now, my turn. You've been trying to hang Brian and his management over this book situation here and elsewhere. You've even gone so far as to put out a suggestion that Brian committed fraud. To me, it sounds like you have an axe to grind beyond this book situation, and you're using this to help sharpen that axe. And you're putting information out there which you don't know, but are going with anyway.

Look at what has come out so far. Brian signed what he agreed to sign, people witnessed him signing those hundreds of autographs (see Ray Lawlor's post, he was there and saw Brian sign them), and they were handed over to be put into the books. Whatever happened after that part of the process that led to these issues is out of Brian's hands, after the autographs were handed over as agreed, and should make your comments suggesting Brian committed fraud completely moot and false. Some of Premier's original comments back that up. On Brian's end, on BriMel's end, according to the posts, Brian signed them and they were delivered. Done deal.

If you want to tie this into some issues from 2012 and 2013, you're doing a solid job of it. Pursue those issues, find the info and get whatever names you're looking for, but don't try to shift topics and suggest Brian and "his team" are involved in fraud and deceit based on what people who may or may not still be part of that team had done 4 years ago.

It's obvious you are trying to hang this on Brian and "those around him" (to borrow a phrase from another thread), and when the strong possibility is raised that they may not have been aware of this after handing over the signatures Brian actually signed and was witnessed signing, you try to connect this to previous incidents and cases which may or may not have involved people who are no longer in the "those around Brian" category.

You want to make jokes about my head in the sand instead of trying to hash out the issue at hand, which you have been pounding on multiple forums? You want to talk about the issue of these auto-pen signatures getting into Premier's supply line and possible ways that could have happened, or try to link it to the new set of issues from previous years which you've brought up and are trying to shift the discussion toward since Premier's statement? Get your facts straight and check your grudges at the door first, and we'll talk facts. Deal?



There really isn't more to discuss until Da Capo Press or BriMel explains how this happened--Premiere Collectibles has explained their role and came with a solution for those who purchased the books. I personally don't think the solution goes far enough, as they are leaving non-genuine signed books in circulation, at some point those books will be resold and the buyer will be SOL.

My response on the first page laid out the scenario and all parties involved, as far as we know, and to leave Brian out would be inaccurate--I never suggested Brian committed fraud. I think Brian's only role in this saga was signing the 500 title pages that Ray Lawlor personally witnessed him sign. What happened after that, we don't know.

I know it's loaded when talking about Brian's family, management, friends, etc. and I've done my best to be respectful when talking about "those around him". Honestly, both meet & greets I participated in were professional and the people helping made it an enjoyable experience.

The only reason this was connected back to the 2012 and 2013 bogus autographs is because there is a precedence. I'm sorry, the solution to not getting duped into buying bogus signatures is not to say "You know the history with Brian Wilson and forged signature, so just stay away" it's to ask the question of why this happened and get it rectified.

Further, there is a link between the 2012 and 2013 forged signatures and potentially autopen/stamped/pre-printed books--starting next year, the Pet Sounds VIP includes a signed copy of I Am Brian Wilson and no other memorabilia will be signed. Can we be assured these will be genuine hand-signed books?

Keep attacking me, I can take it. This is very personal to me. I've been collecting autographs for 30 years and it breaks my heart that Brian is tangled up in this mess, even worse that this isn't the first instance.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 27, 2016, 11:26:51 AM
I can certainly understand how the idea of "if you know there have been problems in the past, maybe consider not buying his autographs" isn't going to fly so much with someone who is a long-time autograph collector.

The "think about not buying autographs" idea isn't at all a legal or customer-service-oriented remedy to not getting what you paid for. It's simply advice, and when you claim to be well-versed in *numerous* questionable instances of autographs in recent years and continue to buy them (for instance, what if Premiere had hand-signed books, but signed by someone else?), your complaints are going to eventually be weighed accordingly. It doesn't absolve anyone of selling bad autographs. But a "fool me once...." citation is not completely inappropriate here.

If a retailer who admits their product is defective offers a full refund, what else can possibly be done? You can hope and ask and demand that someone provide full answers to precisely what happened, and I'm sure everybody would prefer that. But I mostly disagree that Premiere offering a full refund (and apparently at least attempting if failing to get replacements for those who wanted them instead of a full refund) is not a sufficient solution. Yes, bad autographs being "out there" is problematic, and they put out an e-mail to consumers to refund and/or replace them. They can't *force* every buyer to return their copy. The refund is appropriate, and the best solution to what can't be undone as a bad situation all around.

I think people familiar with all of this will buy or not buy products accordingly. If I were inclined in the future to buy an autographed book, and *no* further explanation of how this Premiere debacle happened was forthcoming, I'd almost certainly *not* buy from any of these sources.

I'm more than willing to say that, regardless of whether any of this was caused by anyone in Brian's "camp", *not* saying anything about this ever is certainly *not* a good PR move, and is not a fan-friendly way to handle it.

What I'm not sure of is what happens if someone gets a statement from Brian's people that says that Brian personally signed everything he gave to the publisher. Answers to questions often raise more.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Pretty Funky on October 27, 2016, 12:16:47 PM
So I've learnt a few things this thread including signed pages are added to books later.

Here's some irony. If the books being returned to PC eventually get signed by Brian then return to the market, they may be worth more. ::)


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 27, 2016, 02:56:00 PM
Just got this email...

Quote
Hi Billy C,

Hello: we've been looking at the posts on this thread regarding signed copies of Brian’s new book. Please know that Brian spent a tremendous amount of time over the Summer personally signing thousands of books. Premiere Collectibles is a third-party bookseller who received an allotment of books, along with others. We are looking into this right now.

If for some reason you believe yours is not personally signed by Brian, please send a photo of the signature to info@brianwilson.com and we will deal directly with the publisher and get back to you immediately.

Brian Wilson Management


Administrator sent this email using a form at the URL below, which hides your email address from the email sender:
https://brianwilson.websitetoolbox.com

Thank you,
Brian Wilson Community
https://brianwilson.websitetoolbox.com

Notice the "deal directly with the publisher"? I think that is our answer.

Can we call off the dogs now?!


Title: Re: Some
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 27, 2016, 02:59:37 PM
That screen shot of the Facebook thread clearly points out that no one is  blaming BriMel. 

Just the usual suspects are, though.


Title: Re: Some
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 27, 2016, 04:39:26 PM
Just got this email...

Quote
Hi Billy C,

Hello: we've been looking at the posts on this thread regarding signed copies of Brian’s new book. Please know that Brian spent a tremendous amount of time over the Summer personally signing thousands of books. Premiere Collectibles is a third-party bookseller who received an allotment of books, along with others. We are looking into this right now.

If for some reason you believe yours is not personally signed by Brian, please send a photo of the signature to info@brianwilson.com and we will deal directly with the publisher and get back to you immediately.

Brian Wilson Management


Administrator sent this email using a form at the URL below, which hides your email address from the email sender:
https://brianwilson.websitetoolbox.com

Thank you,
Brian Wilson Community
https://brianwilson.websitetoolbox.com

Notice the "deal directly with the publisher"? I think that is our answer.

Can we call off the dogs now?!
Yes, looks like both Premiere Collectibles and Brian Wilson Inc. are pinning the blame on Da Capo Press. This actually seems like a more promising solution for those who have a non-genuine signature--"deal directly with the publisher" gives the impression that they might be able to make an exchange???


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 28, 2016, 06:30:01 AM
Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.

Take a second to read the post above where I quote acedecade75 and provided photos. It certainly is possible that Brian bears no blame in the current situation with Premiere Collectibles and PC has taken responsibility for their part in the screw up. The fact that so many people pointed directly to Brian or his "team" has everything to do with past actions. If you know nothing about something, read up and learn. Keeping your head in the sand on the issue is no excuse. Feel free to comment once you become more educated on this particular subject.

Marty, spare the bile and read the Facebook comments if you want to read the comments about what you're asking about, these signatures from 2012 and 2013. I don't know anything about how that happened or what happened other than what fans have been posting. What could I say? I have the same info posted by fans as most of us do. If you want to read what others say could have happened, read them. Whatever I say about it is coming from the same bleacher seats as everyone else reading the posts.

Now, my turn. You've been trying to hang Brian and his management over this book situation here and elsewhere. You've even gone so far as to put out a suggestion that Brian committed fraud. To me, it sounds like you have an axe to grind beyond this book situation, and you're using this to help sharpen that axe. And you're putting information out there which you don't know, but are going with anyway.

Look at what has come out so far. Brian signed what he agreed to sign, people witnessed him signing those hundreds of autographs (see Ray Lawlor's post, he was there and saw Brian sign them), and they were handed over to be put into the books. Whatever happened after that part of the process that led to these issues is out of Brian's hands, after the autographs were handed over as agreed, and should make your comments suggesting Brian committed fraud completely moot and false. Some of Premier's original comments back that up. On Brian's end, on BriMel's end, according to the posts, Brian signed them and they were delivered. Done deal.

If you want to tie this into some issues from 2012 and 2013, you're doing a solid job of it. Pursue those issues, find the info and get whatever names you're looking for, but don't try to shift topics and suggest Brian and "his team" are involved in fraud and deceit based on what people who may or may not still be part of that team had done 4 years ago.

It's obvious you are trying to hang this on Brian and "those around him" (to borrow a phrase from another thread), and when the strong possibility is raised that they may not have been aware of this after handing over the signatures Brian actually signed and was witnessed signing, you try to connect this to previous incidents and cases which may or may not have involved people who are no longer in the "those around Brian" category.

You want to make jokes about my head in the sand instead of trying to hash out the issue at hand, which you have been pounding on multiple forums? You want to talk about the issue of these auto-pen signatures getting into Premier's supply line and possible ways that could have happened, or try to link it to the new set of issues from previous years which you've brought up and are trying to shift the discussion toward since Premier's statement? Get your facts straight and check your grudges at the door first, and we'll talk facts. Deal?



There really isn't more to discuss until Da Capo Press or BriMel explains how this happened--Premiere Collectibles has explained their role and came with a solution for those who purchased the books. I personally don't think the solution goes far enough, as they are leaving non-genuine signed books in circulation, at some point those books will be resold and the buyer will be SOL.

My response on the first page laid out the scenario and all parties involved, as far as we know, and to leave Brian out would be inaccurate--I never suggested Brian committed fraud. I think Brian's only role in this saga was signing the 500 title pages that Ray Lawlor personally witnessed him sign. What happened after that, we don't know.

I know it's loaded when talking about Brian's family, management, friends, etc. and I've done my best to be respectful when talking about "those around him". Honestly, both meet & greets I participated in were professional and the people helping made it an enjoyable experience.

The only reason this was connected back to the 2012 and 2013 bogus autographs is because there is a precedence. I'm sorry, the solution to not getting duped into buying bogus signatures is not to say "You know the history with Brian Wilson and forged signature, so just stay away" it's to ask the question of why this happened and get it rectified.

Further, there is a link between the 2012 and 2013 forged signatures and potentially autopen/stamped/pre-printed books--starting next year, the Pet Sounds VIP includes a signed copy of I Am Brian Wilson and no other memorabilia will be signed. Can we be assured these will be genuine hand-signed books?

Keep attacking me, I can take it. This is very personal to me. I've been collecting autographs for 30 years and it breaks my heart that Brian is tangled up in this mess, even worse that this isn't the first instance.



Marty:


I don't get it, why insert this into the conversation? It comes off as trying to diminish genuine concerns. Here are the options:

1. Premiere Collectibles committed fraud - doesn't seem likely considering their reaction to the situation.
and/or
2. The book publisher committed fraud
and/or
3. Brian's team committed fraud
and/or
4. Brian committed fraud

Each of these books came with a certificate of authenticity stating it was personally signed by the author--these are very serious allegations. If I recall, this is not the first time something like this has happened with Brian and autographs.


You saw the email that was recently sent out. Through all the correspondence from Premiere, including their contact with "management", the assumptions could be drawn into conclusions that Brian's management (who you and others here and elsewhere didn't hesitate to suggest fraud before knowing anything) found out about this as most other fans found out. And they were - I'm sure - angry, upset, and trying to figure out what happened and how it could have happened. As it's something beyond their control, they just reached out to people via email, and I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that this situation is not being ignored and was not a deliberate attempt at fraud.

You and others started posting with suggestions of fraud, and began tying it in with previous issues from 2012-13, it felt like you were trying to build a case against them and pile on despite no one yet knowing what had happened with these books and Premiere's orders that didn't have Brian's autograph. Did you or did you not say they don't get the benefit of the doubt?

I'll repeat what I posted earlier in this discussion. Brian signed - according to the email it turns out more than was even witnessed by Ray when he was there to witness Brian personally signing hundreds of them - and those were delivered as agreed. Done deal on their part. It goes to the publisher to be put into the books - as described. The publisher in this case was the one who struck the deals with third-party sellers like Premiere - as described. They shipped to Premiere, who sold them to Premiere's customers - as described. Premiere did not deal directly with anyone in Brian's management or around him - they went through the publisher who was the one responsible for manufacturing the books using whatever printers they used, as described.

Premiere stepped up and admitted to the customers that these auto-signs slipped through their quality control inspections, and said they will work to ensure similar cases won't happen again. They admit, they dropped the ball and didn't catch this before shipping the items to their customers.

"Brian's management", if you go back to some of the early Facebook posts from Premiere said that from their end, what they delivered were genuine Brian autographs that Brian personally signed (and which people watched him sign). Whatever happened that those signatures they delivered did not end up actually in the books sent to Premiere, was the mystery and they didn't know the what's or the how's other than they delivered as agreed.

All of those pieces were on the table via Facebook exchanges as linked here and elsewhere. And the email just sent out confirmed that the matter is being looked into by "Brian's management" although they were not directly involved in the transaction between Premiere and the publisher who dealt with Premiere.

Is that enough to give them the benefit of the doubt, with an eye toward making this right or at least getting an answer for what happened?

Marty, I know the 2012-13 situations are upsetting to you, and I agree - I hate to see fans in any way think they're getting something special only to find out someone else signed it. Beyond that, as I said, I know nothing and can add nothing to that issue. If you have more information or can find people who do know what happened, possibly who did this or what could have happened, feel free to post that info, I'd like to see it myself. If someone (or someones) specific did this in 2012-13, see if you can find out more details and post them. But I'd suggest it's a separate issue from what happened here with the books, and should be addressed as such - Separate thread perhaps? Maybe another board member reading that thread will know more of the info you're asking about.

In this case with the books, maybe consider waiting for info to be found out and more questions answered. I'm sure everyone wants to know how this happened, and it's already being worked on making it right for the fans who were affected.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 28, 2016, 10:43:13 AM
Marty, why would I comment on something I know nothing about? If you're looking for comments on those issues, I'd suggest reading through some of the Facebook comments at the links that have been getting posted from the autograph club and the comments by Premiere, it seems some comments have been posted about what you're asking me about here. Weigh them accordingly as you see fit.

Take a second to read the post above where I quote acedecade75 and provided photos. It certainly is possible that Brian bears no blame in the current situation with Premiere Collectibles and PC has taken responsibility for their part in the screw up. The fact that so many people pointed directly to Brian or his "team" has everything to do with past actions. If you know nothing about something, read up and learn. Keeping your head in the sand on the issue is no excuse. Feel free to comment once you become more educated on this particular subject.

Marty, spare the bile and read the Facebook comments if you want to read the comments about what you're asking about, these signatures from 2012 and 2013. I don't know anything about how that happened or what happened other than what fans have been posting. What could I say? I have the same info posted by fans as most of us do. If you want to read what others say could have happened, read them. Whatever I say about it is coming from the same bleacher seats as everyone else reading the posts.

Now, my turn. You've been trying to hang Brian and his management over this book situation here and elsewhere. You've even gone so far as to put out a suggestion that Brian committed fraud. To me, it sounds like you have an axe to grind beyond this book situation, and you're using this to help sharpen that axe. And you're putting information out there which you don't know, but are going with anyway.

Look at what has come out so far. Brian signed what he agreed to sign, people witnessed him signing those hundreds of autographs (see Ray Lawlor's post, he was there and saw Brian sign them), and they were handed over to be put into the books. Whatever happened after that part of the process that led to these issues is out of Brian's hands, after the autographs were handed over as agreed, and should make your comments suggesting Brian committed fraud completely moot and false. Some of Premier's original comments back that up. On Brian's end, on BriMel's end, according to the posts, Brian signed them and they were delivered. Done deal.

If you want to tie this into some issues from 2012 and 2013, you're doing a solid job of it. Pursue those issues, find the info and get whatever names you're looking for, but don't try to shift topics and suggest Brian and "his team" are involved in fraud and deceit based on what people who may or may not still be part of that team had done 4 years ago.

It's obvious you are trying to hang this on Brian and "those around him" (to borrow a phrase from another thread), and when the strong possibility is raised that they may not have been aware of this after handing over the signatures Brian actually signed and was witnessed signing, you try to connect this to previous incidents and cases which may or may not have involved people who are no longer in the "those around Brian" category.

You want to make jokes about my head in the sand instead of trying to hash out the issue at hand, which you have been pounding on multiple forums? You want to talk about the issue of these auto-pen signatures getting into Premier's supply line and possible ways that could have happened, or try to link it to the new set of issues from previous years which you've brought up and are trying to shift the discussion toward since Premier's statement? Get your facts straight and check your grudges at the door first, and we'll talk facts. Deal?



There really isn't more to discuss until Da Capo Press or BriMel explains how this happened--Premiere Collectibles has explained their role and came with a solution for those who purchased the books. I personally don't think the solution goes far enough, as they are leaving non-genuine signed books in circulation, at some point those books will be resold and the buyer will be SOL.

My response on the first page laid out the scenario and all parties involved, as far as we know, and to leave Brian out would be inaccurate--I never suggested Brian committed fraud. I think Brian's only role in this saga was signing the 500 title pages that Ray Lawlor personally witnessed him sign. What happened after that, we don't know.

I know it's loaded when talking about Brian's family, management, friends, etc. and I've done my best to be respectful when talking about "those around him". Honestly, both meet & greets I participated in were professional and the people helping made it an enjoyable experience.

The only reason this was connected back to the 2012 and 2013 bogus autographs is because there is a precedence. I'm sorry, the solution to not getting duped into buying bogus signatures is not to say "You know the history with Brian Wilson and forged signature, so just stay away" it's to ask the question of why this happened and get it rectified.

Further, there is a link between the 2012 and 2013 forged signatures and potentially autopen/stamped/pre-printed books--starting next year, the Pet Sounds VIP includes a signed copy of I Am Brian Wilson and no other memorabilia will be signed. Can we be assured these will be genuine hand-signed books?

Keep attacking me, I can take it. This is very personal to me. I've been collecting autographs for 30 years and it breaks my heart that Brian is tangled up in this mess, even worse that this isn't the first instance.



Marty:


I don't get it, why insert this into the conversation? It comes off as trying to diminish genuine concerns. Here are the options:

1. Premiere Collectibles committed fraud - doesn't seem likely considering their reaction to the situation.
and/or
2. The book publisher committed fraud
and/or
3. Brian's team committed fraud
and/or
4. Brian committed fraud

Each of these books came with a certificate of authenticity stating it was personally signed by the author--these are very serious allegations. If I recall, this is not the first time something like this has happened with Brian and autographs.


You saw the email that was recently sent out. Through all the correspondence from Premiere, including their contact with "management", the assumptions could be drawn into conclusions that Brian's management (who you and others here and elsewhere didn't hesitate to suggest fraud before knowing anything) found out about this as most other fans found out. And they were - I'm sure - angry, upset, and trying to figure out what happened and how it could have happened. As it's something beyond their control, they just reached out to people via email, and I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that this situation is not being ignored and was not a deliberate attempt at fraud.

You and others started posting with suggestions of fraud, and began tying it in with previous issues from 2012-13, it felt like you were trying to build a case against them and pile on despite no one yet knowing what had happened with these books and Premiere's orders that didn't have Brian's autograph. Did you or did you not say they don't get the benefit of the doubt?

I'll repeat what I posted earlier in this discussion. Brian signed - according to the email it turns out more than was even witnessed by Ray when he was there to witness Brian personally signing hundreds of them - and those were delivered as agreed. Done deal on their part. It goes to the publisher to be put into the books - as described. The publisher in this case was the one who struck the deals with third-party sellers like Premiere - as described. They shipped to Premiere, who sold them to Premiere's customers - as described. Premiere did not deal directly with anyone in Brian's management or around him - they went through the publisher who was the one responsible for manufacturing the books using whatever printers they used, as described.

Premiere stepped up and admitted to the customers that these auto-signs slipped through their quality control inspections, and said they will work to ensure similar cases won't happen again. They admit, they dropped the ball and didn't catch this before shipping the items to their customers.

"Brian's management", if you go back to some of the early Facebook posts from Premiere said that from their end, what they delivered were genuine Brian autographs that Brian personally signed (and which people watched him sign). Whatever happened that those signatures they delivered did not end up actually in the books sent to Premiere, was the mystery and they didn't know the what's or the how's other than they delivered as agreed.

All of those pieces were on the table via Facebook exchanges as linked here and elsewhere. And the email just sent out confirmed that the matter is being looked into by "Brian's management" although they were not directly involved in the transaction between Premiere and the publisher who dealt with Premiere.

Is that enough to give them the benefit of the doubt, with an eye toward making this right or at least getting an answer for what happened?

Marty, I know the 2012-13 situations are upsetting to you, and I agree - I hate to see fans in any way think they're getting something special only to find out someone else signed it. Beyond that, as I said, I know nothing and can add nothing to that issue. If you have more information or can find people who do know what happened, possibly who did this or what could have happened, feel free to post that info, I'd like to see it myself. If someone (or someones) specific did this in 2012-13, see if you can find out more details and post them. But I'd suggest it's a separate issue from what happened here with the books, and should be addressed as such - Separate thread perhaps? Maybe another board member reading that thread will know more of the info you're asking about.

In this case with the books, maybe consider waiting for info to be found out and more questions answered. I'm sure everyone wants to know how this happened, and it's already being worked on making it right for the fans who were affected.


I'm not sure what your objection is beyond tying this to the fake signatures coming from official Beach Boys/Brian Wilson sources in 2012-2013. I believe this is a valid concern since some of these issues have come up during meet & greets involving Brian in the past (i.e. the forged signature on the photo given out at the Atlantic City event)--"I Am Brian Wilson" is part of the 2017 VIP package, you don't think there is any reason for concern? Can fans be assured they will be hand-signed? Will they be pre-signed or will Brian sign them right in front of you?

My guess is you are hung up on my typing this (and at the time, only Premiere Collectibles and responded):

Here are the options:

1. Premiere Collectibles committed fraud - doesn't seem likely considering their reaction to the situation.
and/or
2. The book publisher committed fraud
and/or
3. Brian's team committed fraud
and/or
4. Brian committed fraud

The above still remains true, those are the entities involved. The reason I put and/or was because we didn't know who was to blame. Now we have a little more information and both Premiere and BriMel are saying it was an issue with the publisher. We still don't have all the information. I still don't understand the reason for pre-printed/autopen/facsimile signatures--I think this still needs to be explained. I think it's great that BriMel and Premiere Collectibles are offering a solution, but it still leaves the possibility of these fugazi books popping up on the secondary market for years to come.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Robbie Mac on October 28, 2016, 10:49:07 AM
This thread is the first time I have heard of 2012 Brian signatures being fake.  Or any Brian tour merch autographs being fake. Am I missing a discussion?


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 28, 2016, 11:49:56 AM
This thread is the first time I have heard of 2012 Brian signatures being fake.  Or any Brian tour merch autographs being fake. Am I missing a discussion?

Those 2012 discussions might be spread across different threads. But yes, there was discussion concerning mainly the $100 autographed programs (there were also $50 signed group photos) that some of Brian's signatures (apparently not all?) didn't match other known contemporary signatures.

I'm not sure where the allegations that Foskett was signing came from.

Some of those C50 signature examples did look questionable.

I do know that, separate from a specific discussion of the C50 autographs, I have seen other incorrect assertions/assumptions about supposed telltale signs of a fake.

The autopen thing is obviously quite provable. When someone else is allegedly signing, but still individually signing each piece, the whole thing becomes much more messy. Again, the weird thing even going back to C50 is that Brian *was* also signing autographs. It's not like he was being kept away from everyone Howard Hughes style with no actual confirmed legit autograph. I'm not saying this proves there weren't fakes. Rather the opposite; it makes investigating fakes even more difficult because the motives and timing and reasoning seem all over the map.

Here's one thread from 2013 that looks at a bunch of different supposed real and fake sigs. I don't think there was much in that discussion that I would characterize as "conclusive", but the suspicions aren't unfounded either:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,15507.100.html

But again, some supposed signs of "fakes" such as a closed "B" in his first name are inconsistent, as people who have larger collections of in-person autographs report wide variances.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 28, 2016, 12:39:55 PM
Below is merchandise either purchased via the official merchandise table or official websites. All of these items, in the opinion of autograph experts, bear non-authentic signatures of Brian Wilson--one of the first experts I saw bring this to light is Roger Epperson, a well-respected autograph expert who specializes in rock n' roll. I do not own any of these items, but have collected these photos over the past couple of years:

Gershwin Tour poster
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/JF%2005_zpswood4bm9.jpg)

C50 program
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/JF%2001_zpsq61dbh4s.jpg)

C50 program
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/JF%2002_zpshlvqtuzk.jpg)

2013 Atlantic City meet & greet photo
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/JF%2004_zpsfnknex2j.jpg)


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 28, 2016, 12:53:06 PM
And the Gershwin autograph looks pretty different from the other alleged fakes, further muddying the whole thing (especially if the theory was that one single person was continuously signing).

While I'll once again say that the "fool me once..." motto is *not* an excuse for fake autographs in any way whatsoever, I would also simply as advice offer anyone that if they've spent several years collecting pictures of purported fake autographs specifically purchased through official merchandise outlets of the artist in question, I'm surprised one would ever buy anything of that sort again (other than I suppose a pre-authenticated autograph) and stay away from anything other than in-person personally obtained autographs.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 28, 2016, 01:20:02 PM
And the Gershwin autograph looks pretty different from the other alleged fakes, further muddying the whole thing (especially if the theory was that one single person was continuously signing).

While I'll once again say that the "fool me once..." motto is *not* an excuse for fake autographs in any way whatsoever, I would also simply as advice offer anyone that if they've spent several years collecting pictures of purported fake autographs specifically purchased through official merchandise outlets of the artist in question, I'm surprised one would ever buy anything of that sort again (other than I suppose a pre-authenticated autograph) and stay away from anything other than in-person personally obtained autographs.

If you are referring to me, the only autograph I have purchased of Brian Wilson that could be sourced to his official merch table or website is the No Pier Pressure LP, which I believe to be authentic. In addition to the LP, I purchased the PBS Special with autographed insert via PBS, which I subsequently sold, but believe to be authentic, as well.

There are numerous reasons to collect exemplars of Brian's signature (both real and forged), but it is mainly for educational purposes. People should know what they are buying and it is clear from the response to this thread that many fans were unaware of past issues.

Look, I'm a fan of both Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys. This has led me to purchase various memorabilia, including autographs. My passion for autographs goes beyond Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys and being knowledgeable about their signatures allows me to buy signatures on the secondary market and inform other fans about what is good and what is bad.

I've taken abuse both publicly on this board and via PM. My only motivation is to make sure fans and collectors are informed and don't purchase fake items--that's it.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 28, 2016, 02:04:58 PM
My main point is that if one believes there was rampant fake autograph sales taking place between 2011 and the present, through a variety of channels (merch stand, VIP packages, online sales, etc.), then I think it really would have to be pretty firmly a case of "don't buy any autographs you haven't seen Brian sign with your own eyes, or had pre-authenticated by an expert."

This would include the PBS packages, any third parties selling autographs (e.g. Premiere), and so on.

I think sufficient doubt has been raised in this and other threads. Obviously, nowhere near every fan or potential autograph buyer is going to see this board. But within the realm of spreading the word on this board, I think sufficient dougt has been raised that people can make their decisions.

I *do* think enough doubt exists that I almost certainly wouldn't buy an autograph for any premium. If something I want happens to come with an autograph (e.g. the PBS Blu-ray), then that's fine I suppose. But between the questionable C50 autographs, *someone* in the chain with this new book introducing autopen signatures into the mix, and discussions online, there's a good amount of doubt around now. I don't think there's enough evidence to say with 100% certainty what's going on (and of course the Premiere thing is further muddied by a larger amount of go-betweens), so I can't say who is doing what. Also, while I've seen some signatures that I'd say very obviously raise questions, I've seen others purported to be fake that I'm less inclined to say raise questions.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Generation42 on October 29, 2016, 07:50:56 PM
This would include the PBS packages, any third parties selling autographs (e.g. Premiere), and so on.
I don't mean to derail, but I recall folks here generally asserting that BW's signature for the PBS package seemed to look legit.

I never specifically solicited an opinion on mine (I'd like to think it's the real-deal), but here it is for reference, anyway:

(https://s26.postimg.org/9pblp8oh5/PBS_1.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.org/re3cgv089/PBS.jpg)


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: beatle608 on October 29, 2016, 07:59:07 PM
I agree that the signed PBS sets look to be legit. Wish I would have bought one!


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 29, 2016, 08:06:19 PM
Yes, I should be clear, as I've mentioned before, that I have a signed PBS Blu-ray and it looks legit by all standards. I think it's legit.

In my previous post, I was only saying that if one had significant doubts about a variety of Brian signatures of recent years, I wouldn't expect them to pursue something even like the PBS signed Blu-ray, or at least try assume it was going to be legit.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: beatle608 on October 29, 2016, 08:13:11 PM
A friend showed me some signed posters they were selling at the recent BW San Diego show and they looked good. If I was there, I probably would have bought one.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 29, 2016, 08:19:21 PM
A friend showed me some signed posters they were selling at the recent BW San Diego show and they looked good. If I was there, I probably would have bought one.

There were signed posters specifically for the two San Francisco shows I saw too and those looked correct and legit as well.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Generation42 on October 29, 2016, 08:42:39 PM
In my previous post, I was only saying that if one had significant doubts about a variety of Brian signatures of recent years, I wouldn't expect them to pursue something even like the PBS signed Blu-ray, or at least try assume it was going to be legit.
Understood.  :)


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: beatle608 on October 29, 2016, 09:32:22 PM
A friend showed me some signed posters they were selling at the recent BW San Diego show and they looked good. If I was there, I probably would have bought one.

There were signed posters specifically for the two San Francisco shows I saw too and those looked correct and legit as well.

Whoops, I meant San Fransisco!


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on November 13, 2016, 08:31:36 AM
Be careful, these fakes are still showing up on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-AM-BRIAN-WILSON-SIGNED-AUTOGRAPHED-BRAND-NEW-1ST-ED-BOOK-COA-BEACH-BOYS-/381847788539?hash=item58e7e6dbfb:g:K4cAAOSw44BYKIYN


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: thatjacob on November 14, 2016, 06:29:28 PM
Be careful, these fakes are still showing up on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-AM-BRIAN-WILSON-SIGNED-AUTOGRAPHED-BRAND-NEW-1ST-ED-BOOK-COA-BEACH-BOYS-/381847788539?hash=item58e7e6dbfb:g:K4cAAOSw44BYKIYN
I reported it. I messaged the seller with a link to this thread and gave them 24 hours to take the listing down before I reported it.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: thatjacob on November 18, 2016, 10:00:34 PM
Be careful, these fakes are still showing up on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-AM-BRIAN-WILSON-SIGNED-AUTOGRAPHED-BRAND-NEW-1ST-ED-BOOK-COA-BEACH-BOYS-/381847788539?hash=item58e7e6dbfb:g:K4cAAOSw44BYKIYN
I reported it. I messaged the seller with a link to this thread and gave them 24 hours to take the listing down before I reported it.
Still not pulled. Someone else should file a complaint.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on November 20, 2016, 06:07:56 PM
And another one:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-Am-Brian-Wilson-A-Memoir-SIGNED-by-Brian-Wilson-2016-NEW-/262728018767?hash=item3d2bcf6b4f:g:xj0AAOSwImRYGn9j

A little more than a month after publication and they are still showing up on the secondary markets. The genies out of the bottle, these will continue to pop up.


While were at it, this seller is claiming that 50 of these uncut TWGMTR cd booklets were sold via the Beach Boys official website. In my opinion, these are bogus Brian Wilson signatures with authentic Mike Love, Al Jardine, Bruce Johnston and David Marks signatures:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322314075142?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/JF%2007_zpsuziiuyme.jpg)

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/JF%2008_zpsrwcnyipk.jpg)


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: acedecade75 on November 21, 2016, 11:01:46 AM
 I have to agree with you.  Those Brian Wilson signatures on the uncut booklets all look bad.  They also match the bogus Brian Wilson signatures that tuned up of some of the autographed C50 tour programs in the merchandise booth.


And another one:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-Am-Brian-Wilson-A-Memoir-SIGNED-by-Brian-Wilson-2016-NEW-/262728018767?hash=item3d2bcf6b4f:g:xj0AAOSwImRYGn9j

A little more than a month after publication and they are still showing up on the secondary markets. The genies out of the bottle, these will continue to pop up.


While were at it, this seller is claiming that 50 of these uncut TWGMTR cd booklets were sold via the Beach Boys official website. In my opinion, these are bogus Brian Wilson signatures with authentic Mike Love, Al Jardine, Bruce Johnston and David Marks signatures:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322314075142?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/JF%2007_zpsuziiuyme.jpg)

 I have to agree with you.  Every one of those Brian Wilson signatures looks bad.  They also match the bogus Brian Wilson signatures that tuned up some of the C50 autographed tour programs in the merchandise booth.

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/mbriev16/JF%2008_zpsrwcnyipk.jpg)


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Rocky Raccoon on November 21, 2016, 12:13:03 PM
My local Barnes & Noble says they'll have signed copies of I Am Brian Wilson available Black Friday weekend.  I'm thinking of checking it out but I'll have to look back at this thread when I see it.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on November 25, 2016, 12:35:01 PM
My local Barnes & Noble says they'll have signed copies of I Am Brian Wilson available Black Friday weekend.  I'm thinking of checking it out but I'll have to look back at this thread when I see it.

This eBay seller is claiming they bought this book at Barnes & Noble:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRIAN-WILSON-Barnes-Nobles-LIMITED-signed-autographed-auto-book-hardcover-/262734236039?hash=item3d2c2e4987:g:0ZQAAOSwB09YOFev

Sure looks like the autopen/facsimile signature that Premiere Collectibles were plagued with...


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: thatjacob on November 25, 2016, 03:19:02 PM
My local Barnes & Noble says they'll have signed copies of I Am Brian Wilson available Black Friday weekend.  I'm thinking of checking it out but I'll have to look back at this thread when I see it.

This eBay seller is claiming they bought this book at Barnes & Noble:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRIAN-WILSON-Barnes-Nobles-LIMITED-signed-autographed-auto-book-hardcover-/262734236039?hash=item3d2c2e4987:g:0ZQAAOSwB09YOFev

Sure looks like the autopen/facsimile signature that Premiere Collectibles were plagued with...
I'm glad I didn't bother to pick up a copy, then...


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: CAFeelin89 on November 26, 2016, 12:39:57 PM
How about the Black Friday signed Mike Love books? I got one but didn't think to compare it to the other signatures in the other books. Are those ones legit?


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on November 26, 2016, 07:27:21 PM
How about the Black Friday signed Mike Love books? I got one but didn't think to compare it to the other signatures in the other books. Are those ones legit?

The Mike Love books purchased via Premiere Collectibles and Barnes & Noble appear to be legit.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on November 29, 2016, 06:18:05 PM
Word is at least some Barnes & Noble locations did not put the Brian Wilson "signed" books out for sale because they realized they were bad, yet some clearly were sold and are now on the secondary market:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-Am-Brian-Wilson-By-Brian-Wilson-SIGNED-HCDJ-2016-1st-1st-BRAND-NEW-Beach-Boys-/132018963467?hash=item1ebcf1840b:g:RsUAAOSwj85YPi6w

Any word if Brian will be signing the books at the VIP meet & greets in 2017 or will his team be handing out pre-signed books? I would personally want the peace of mind of seeing it signed in front of me, especially paying $500 per person...


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on December 07, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
Another dreaded facsimile/autopen:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-Am-Brian-Wilson-A-Memoir-SIGNED-by-Brian-Wilson-2016-NEW-/262751930659?hash=item3d2d3c4923:g:xj0AAOSwImRYGn9j

It would be nice to get some explanation from the publisher or Brian why these were produced in the first place.

At minimum there should have been a disclaimer like Trump apparently did with his autopen hats and books:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/autographed-trump-hats-books-sold-website-signed-machine/story?id=43638238


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: acedecade75 on December 07, 2016, 03:13:34 PM
How about the Black Friday signed Mike Love books? I got one but didn't think to compare it to the other signatures in the other books. Are those ones legit?

The Mike Love books purchased via Premiere Collectibles and Barnes & Noble appear to be legit.

 It's just my opinion, but I really don't think there are too many fake Mike Love autographs floating around.  Mike has always been good about signing autographs.  I once personally watched him sign about a dozen albums for one guy. 


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on December 08, 2016, 12:43:33 PM
Agreed, Mike is more accessible (out touring all year, in addition to of course book promotions this year), and his autograph is less sought-after (not a knock on him, it's just the way it is), so I would also doubt fakes are prevalent through any official or unofficial channels.

I would imagine *everybody's* autograph of note has been faked at one time or another, but I don't think Mike fakes would be practical.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on December 08, 2016, 01:16:44 PM
Agreed, Mike is more accessible (out touring all year, in addition to of course book promotions this year), and his autograph is less sought-after (not a knock on him, it's just the way it is), so I would also doubt fakes are prevalent through any official or unofficial channels.

I would imagine *everybody's* autograph of note has been faked at one time or another, but I don't think Mike fakes would be practical.

You are spot on in your assessment.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Custom Machine on October 12, 2017, 02:05:26 PM
Bumping this thread as a result of a communication today with a friend who purchased a couple of "remainder" copies of I Am Brian Wilson at a book store for $8.99 each, with a sticker on the cover which states "Signed Copy".

He sent photos of each signature and I advised him that one of the signatures was the most common example of the autopen or stamped signature that had been sold by Premiere Collectibles.

I also mentioned that I had noticed that this autopen or stamped signature, which was frequently found in the batch sold by Premiere Collectibles, (and is still among the autographed copies being sold on eBay), is totally identical to the BW signature on the home page of BrianWilson.com.

As has been done in this thread, we discussed the three possible sources of the autopen or stamped signatures:

• Premiere Collectibles - Unlikely, as providing fake signatures would be an incredibly dumb business move for them.

• The publisher, who acted as a middleman in the transaction - Quite possible, as they asked BW's camp for the sigs, and may have decided they needed more.

• Someone in BW's camp - Another possibility, if the publisher and/or Premiere said they wanted more signed inserts. (We know that Ray Lawler said that Brian signed over 500 inserts over two days, adding, "Brian bitched about it, but did it.")

My friend later called and told me the source of the autopen or stamped signatures most likely came from BW's camp. Why? Because the fake signature in the books sold by Premiere Collectibles is identical to the signature on the BW.com home page. If someone at BW's camp was not involved, then we must assume that whomever else was responsible just happened to pick a BW autograph to reproduce that was identical to the "official" one on BW.com, and we all know that for many years now Brian's signatures tend to be uniquely identifiable from sample to sample.

I then contacted my friend and advised him that it's also possible that whomever was responsible simply lifted Brian's autograph from his homepage and reproduced it for the autopen or stamped versions.

We'll probably never know the full story, and my friend tells me there is yet another "version 2" autopen or stamped signature found in copies of I Am Brian Wilson.

Along those lines, the paperback version of I Am BW was released a couple of days ago. Brian will be doing a book signing at Book Soup on Sunset Blvd in West Hollywood on Tues. Oct. 18, and Barnes & Nobles at The Grove in Los Angeles  on Wed. Oct 19th.



Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Marty Castillo on October 12, 2017, 04:43:31 PM
Custom Machine, per your request in private messages, I have attached the autopen/pre-printed signature that flooded the market when Brian's book first came out. In my opinion, Brian's camp, the publisher and Premiere Collectibles handled the situation very poorly. We still haven't received a proper answer to how/why this happened. Here are two current eBay auctions with the autopen signature:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-AM-BRIAN-WILSON-by-Brian-Wilson-NEW-SIGHED-1ST-1ST-FINE-UNREAD-Hardcover-/292289553062?hash=item440dd0a2a6:g:sqUAAOSw-K9ZIiwI
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRIAN-WILSON-SIGNED-I-AM-BRIAN-WILSON-First-Hardcover-Edition-NEW-BEACH-BOYS-/112592317019?epid=219230954&hash=item1a37066a5b:g:h24AAOSwvkVZmZx5


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Pretty Funky on October 12, 2017, 09:41:35 PM
 I put this misrepresentation above Mikes use of ‘The Beach Boys’ logo. Poor form whoever is behind it and that in the interests of consistency, proof that any party can make some bad business decisions.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: HeyJude on October 13, 2017, 07:14:20 AM
I put this misrepresentation above Mikes use of ‘The Beach Boys’ logo. Poor form whoever is behind it and that in the interests of consistency, proof that any party can make some bad business decisions.

I think autopen signatures floating around the secondary/remainder market isn't comparably in any way to Mike's use of the BB name. One issue is a very specific, consumer-oriented issue impacting specific individual fans. The other is a much more broad issue impacting the band's legacy. Both troubling in their own ways, but I don't see a need to compare the two.

I also don't think, given the info hashed out last year in this thread, that it should be surprising that bad copies have floated into the clearance/remaindered supply.

As I probably mentioned in the thread last year, while an autopen signature is troubling (moreso for people than paid a premium than people who are buying remainder copies for cheaper than the list price), there are *numerous* ways to mitigate or rectify an individual purchase situation on a case-by-case basis.

A store probably would (and certainly should) take back a "signed" copy of a book if you prove it's not real. Similarly, any eBay seller should (and PayPal and eBay probably *would* force them to) refund you if you buy a book that you discover has a bad signature. I dunno, sometimes clearance sales are an "all sales are final" situation, but then again if you're paying $8.99 then you're already getting a good deal. I paid more for my stock copy from Amazon last year.

(As an aside, I can't imagine anybody already familiar with the autopen issue would stumble into a book store and expect an $8.99 remaindered copy of the book to *not* be one of the fakes.)

I'm also pretty sure the actual publisher and vendor the signed copies offered either replacements or refunds last year, right?

So on the consumer level, this thing has been and continues to be potentially rectified. All that leaves is the question of how it happened, and it's painfully obvious after all this time that *those* answers are not forthcoming.

The ire regarding $8.99 remaindered copies being put onto the market with bad signatures should be targeted at the publisher/distributor at this stage.



Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Juice Brohnston on October 13, 2017, 08:02:52 AM
I've seen some in bookstores that have a sticker that says 'Autopen Signed Copy'


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Pretty Funky on October 13, 2017, 04:14:08 PM
I put this misrepresentation above Mikes use of ‘The Beach Boys’ logo. Poor form whoever is behind it and that in the interests of consistency, proof that any party can make some bad business decisions.

I think autopen signatures floating around the secondary/remainder market isn't comparably in any way to Mike's use of the BB name. One issue is a very specific, consumer-oriented issue impacting specific individual fans. The other is a much more broad issue impacting the band's legacy. Both troubling in their own ways, but I don't see a need to compare the two.

I also don't think, given the info hashed out last year in this thread, that it should be surprising that bad copies have floated into the clearance/remaindered supply.

As I probably mentioned in the thread last year, while an autopen signature is troubling (moreso for people than paid a premium than people who are buying remainder copies for cheaper than the list price), there are *numerous* ways to mitigate or rectify an individual purchase situation on a case-by-case basis.

A store probably would (and certainly should) take back a "signed" copy of a book if you prove it's not real. Similarly, any eBay seller should (and PayPal and eBay probably *would* force them to) refund you if you buy a book that you discover has a bad signature. I dunno, sometimes clearance sales are an "all sales are final" situation, but then again if you're paying $8.99 then you're already getting a good deal. I paid more for my stock copy from Amazon last year.

(As an aside, I can't imagine anybody already familiar with the autopen issue would stumble into a book store and expect an $8.99 remaindered copy of the book to *not* be one of the fakes.)

I'm also pretty sure the actual publisher and vendor the signed copies offered either replacements or refunds last year, right?

So on the consumer level, this thing has been and continues to be potentially rectified. All that leaves is the question of how it happened, and it's painfully obvious after all this time that *those* answers are not forthcoming.

The ire regarding $8.99 remaindered copies being put onto the market with bad signatures should be targeted at the publisher/distributor at this stage.



We can agree to disagree. I actually wonder if the logo will now be on the actual release next month. Possibly an over enthusiastic marketing person. The same type who frequently shows pictures of the C50 lineup when promoting the M&B shows.
The book signature still smacks of deception to me. As mentioned, Brian signed 500 complaining the whole time. Someone got greedy and sold more plain and simple. Personally I would pay more for Dave’s book with an actual signature rather than Brian’s with auto pen. If Brian ever signed WIBN, more again.
My comparison between Mike and Brian was more the fact that various boards are accused of being supportive of one or the other. That may be the case however I want to point out that both camps have made some bad business decisions, as well as good. I’m going to call them as I see them,who ever it is.


Title: Re: Some \
Post by: Hickory Violet Part IV on October 13, 2017, 04:21:45 PM
Guys, I'm happy to sign any copy of any book (including the Bible).

I accept cheques, postal orders and lunch money.