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Author Topic: Some "signed" Brian books not actually signed  (Read 10195 times)
Ray Lawlor
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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2016, 11:32:11 AM »

I am traveling in Europe and just saw this , and I have to comment on the issue ,as it is  to me, really bizarre.  I am speaking solely as a friend ; I do not work for or represent the Wilson organization to be completely clear. All I can tell you is that I sat at the table in the hotel , in Boston when they were playing Boston Symphony Hall, with Brian and Jerry , while Brian signed at least , over 500 pages to be inserted into the book. Diligently, over two days, two boxes of pages that were FedEx'd to the hotel for him to sign ; there was serious time pressure; Brian bitched about it, but did it.   So for me, this whole episode makes zero sense.  That's all I have to contribute.  R
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2016, 11:38:18 AM »

I am traveling in Europe and just saw this , and I have to comment on the issue ,as it is  to me, really bizarre.  I am speaking solely as a friend ; I do not work for or represent the Wilson organization to be completely clear. All I can tell you is that I sat at the table in the hotel , in Boston when they were playing Boston Symphony Hall, with Brian and Jerry , while Brian signed at least , over 500 pages to be inserted into the book. Diligently, over two days, two boxes of pages that were FedEx'd to the hotel for him to sign ; there was serious time pressure; Brian bitched about it, but did it.   So for me, this whole episode makes zero sense.  That's all I have to contribute.  R

Interesting information. I'm not going to cast aspersions on anyone, and while Premiere's quick response is welcomed, I'm not prepared to say a quick response convinces me 100% that they couldn't have possibly had something to do with this.

Is it possible, as I theorized in another thread, that "autopenned" books/pages were prepared for some other purpose (sending to friends or associates as gifts/comps/freebies) and that group of books was mixed up with the real autographs?

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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2016, 11:44:43 AM »

I am traveling in Europe and just saw this , and I have to comment on the issue ,as it is  to me, really bizarre.  I am speaking solely as a friend ; I do not work for or represent the Wilson organization to be completely clear. All I can tell you is that I sat at the table in the hotel , in Boston when they were playing Boston Symphony Hall, with Brian and Jerry , while Brian signed at least , over 500 pages to be inserted into the book. Diligently, over two days, two boxes of pages that were FedEx'd to the hotel for him to sign ; there was serious time pressure; Brian bitched about it, but did it.   So for me, this whole episode makes zero sense.  That's all I have to contribute.  R
Ray, thanks for the insight. So, if I'm to understand correctly, the pages were essentially single sheets that were then to be inserted into the book at a later date. This is pretty common practice.

As I stated previously, I missed out on the limited supply offered by Premiere Collectibles, so I am only going by photos posted here and on Facebook. There is no question that books were sent out bearing identical signatures made via either autopen, stamp or other means. It appears the focus should be shifted towards the publisher. I would be furious, if I were Brian.

However, this doesn't really explain some of the past questionable signatures that were sold at the merch table in the past...
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« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2016, 11:44:59 AM »

Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.

Quote
Is it possible, as I theorized in another thread, that "autopenned" books/pages were prepared for some other purpose (sending to friends or associates as gifts/comps/freebies) and that group of books was mixed up with the real autographs?
  Possibly. No idea, though.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 11:46:33 AM by ♩♬ John Lemon ♯♫♩ » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2016, 11:59:21 AM »

Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.
That's a curious statement. What exactly do you mean? Books were purchased by fans as being genuinely hand signed by Brian. It was discovered that a number of books were shipped out bearing a non-authentic signature. Are you questioning whether that is the case? Premiere Collectibles has admitted it...
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« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2016, 12:03:18 PM »

Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.
That's a curious statement. What exactly do you mean? Books were purchased by fans as being genuinely hand signed by Brian. It was discovered that a number of books were shipped out bearing a non-authentic signature. Are you questioning whether that is the case? Premiere Collectibles has admitted it...

I think the idea is that, at this stage, all we know is that some signatures are autopenned/stamped and aren't unique. I don't think anybody can question that.

But nobody knows who is responsible, and assuming Brian's people must be responsible because Premiere responded quickly to concerns and indicated they had nothing to do with it, is not quite strong enough information to absolve Premiere (and/or some other party outside of Brian or Premiere) just yet. It's just jumping the gun a bit.

We also don't actually know how widespread the issue is. How many people have reported having this same signature? Five? Ten? The fact that plenty of apparently legit Brian sigs *are* out there, people have seen Brian signing, and it appears Ray Lawlor specifically saw Brian do a signing, suggest something pretty bizarre and not immediately and with blame that can't be laid quickly at the feet of anyone.

From the consumer point of view, it kinda doesn't matter. You pay a company for something, and they then have to warranty it. So the consumer beef *has* to be with Premiere. If Premiere feels and/or determines someone they relied upon for their supply wronged them, then Premiere has to pursue that.
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« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2016, 12:05:51 PM »

Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.
That's a curious statement. What exactly do you mean? Books were purchased by fans as being genuinely hand signed by Brian. It was discovered that a number of books were shipped out bearing a non-authentic signature. Are you questioning whether that is the case? Premiere Collectibles has admitted it...

I think the idea is that, at this stage, all we know is that some signatures are autopenned/stamped and aren't unique. I don't think anybody can question that.

But nobody knows who is responsible, and assuming Brian's people must be responsible because Premiere responded quickly to concerns and indicated they had nothing to do with it, is not quite strong enough information to absolve Premiere (and/or some other party outside of Brian or Premiere) just yet. It's just jumping the gun a bit.

We also don't actually know how widespread the issue is. How many people have reported having this same signature? Five? Ten? The fact that plenty of apparently legit Brian sigs *are* out there, people have seen Brian signing, and it appears Ray Lawlor specifically saw Brian do a signing *for Premiere*, suggest something pretty bizarre and not immediately and with blame that can't be laid quickly at the feet of anyone.

From the consumer point of view, it kinda doesn't matter. You pay a company for something, and they then have to warranty it. So the consumer beef *has* to be with Premiere. If Premiere feels and/or determines someone they relied upon for their supply wrong them, then Premiere has to pursue that.

Well said...beat me to it!
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« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2016, 12:09:43 PM »

Does PC have a history of forging signatures?
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« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2016, 12:13:35 PM »

Thank you for the clarification Ray.  I trust first hand accounts from a trustworthy source as opposed to 3rd hand...VERY much appreciated.
That's a curious statement. What exactly do you mean? Books were purchased by fans as being genuinely hand signed by Brian. It was discovered that a number of books were shipped out bearing a non-authentic signature. Are you questioning whether that is the case? Premiere Collectibles has admitted it...

I think the idea is that, at this stage, all we know is that some signatures are autopenned/stamped and aren't unique. I don't think anybody can question that.

But nobody knows who is responsible, and assuming Brian's people must be responsible because Premiere responded quickly to concerns and indicated they had nothing to do with it, is not quite strong enough information to absolve Premiere (and/or some other party outside of Brian or Premiere) just yet. It's just jumping the gun a bit.

We also don't actually know how widespread the issue is. How many people have reported having this same signature? Five? Ten? The fact that plenty of apparently legit Brian sigs *are* out there, people have seen Brian signing, and it appears Ray Lawlor specifically saw Brian do a signing *for Premiere*, suggest something pretty bizarre and not immediately and with blame that can't be laid quickly at the feet of anyone.

From the consumer point of view, it kinda doesn't matter. You pay a company for something, and they then have to warranty it. So the consumer beef *has* to be with Premiere. If Premiere feels and/or determines someone they relied upon for their supply wronged them, then Premiere has to pursue that.

Yes, the consumer's remedy is to go to Premiere Collectibles, no argument there. I think they are the least likely to be responsible for producing the books with bad signatures--they have built an impeccable reputation, to ruin it over one author would be stupid (but not impossible).

To be clear, Ray never said Brian was doing the signing for Premiere, just that he was signing pages to be inserted into books. There also appears to be a company selling on eBay claiming signed books via bookplate:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-Am-Brian-Wilson-Signed-Book-with-Bookplate-Signature-Autographed-Beach-Boys-/282233632828?hash=item41b66f783c:g:vOkAAOSwUEVYDiUM

Bottom line: this is a huge mess!
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« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2016, 12:19:18 PM »

I'm not sure whether Ray was referring to a signing specifically for Premiere or not, so I've amended my previous post to reflect that. If nothing else, Ray's story reinforces how odd it would be to use an autopen when Brian *does* do mass signings.

Definitely a mess, and it certainly would *seem* like the company wouldn't want to ruin their reputation. As someone else mentioned, one would hope that they would inspect books (if not personally witness signings) to catch stuff like this.
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« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2016, 01:10:16 PM »

Maybe it comes down to who one believes. 

Do Premiere have previous for this?  Don't know, people haven't been suspicious of them.

Have Brian/Beach Boys authorised merchant stands got previous for this?  Yes, without a doubt.

I would have preferred my 80 quid C50 Tour Prog to have had 4 legit signatures rather than 4 legit and one fake.  I kept it because it had the signatures of Mike, Bruce, Al and David.

If Brian signed 500 inserts (and I believe Ray) then they should have been sold directly through his own web store.  It would have avoided the latest mess.
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« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2016, 01:16:53 PM »

It's unquestionably a ridiculous situation. But again, all a customer can really do is get a refund/exchange from the company they bought it from (Premiere). I've seen talk of "class action lawsuits" and "criminal charges" and whatnot, and really none of that applies between customers and Brian or his management. You have to seek your remedy from Premiere (or whomever sold you the book), and then Premiere is the one who has to pursue anyone who sent them bad stuff if that indeed is what has happened.

Yeah, I think one obvious takeaway is that Brian should either sign stuff himself or not sell autographs. One can hope if some shenanigans were going on here, maybe the many obvious steps needed to ensure 100% authenticity will be taken in the future.
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« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2016, 01:21:45 PM »

Quote
If Brian signed 500 inserts (and I believe Ray) then they should have been sold directly through his own web store.  It would have avoided the latest mess.

I've always been leery of 3rd party groups, so yeah if it was done in-house that would eliminate any possible issue.

For a good example of what happens when third parties are involved...look at the fiasco that occurred the last year of Scott Weiland's life, with the meet and greets and merchandise.
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« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2016, 01:27:04 PM »

The question I can't seem to find an answer to is this: if there's a batch of legit signed books (as Ray stated here and Debbie KL stated on Brian's message board) then why have a batch of fake ones to begin with? This is not a case of Mal Evans forging the Beatles signatures to give to 12 year old girls who write fan letters, this is a case of fans PAYING for actual autographs and getting ripped off. Who's doing this? PC deny it's them and that Brian's team isn't responding to inquiries. Where is the publisher in all this?



I'm so glad I'm not an autograph collector.  At least I know that my Soupy Sales and William Shatner autographs are real since I was there.

Live long and throw pies.
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« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2016, 01:41:34 PM »

Quote
The question I can't seem to find an answer to is this: if there's a batch of legit signed books (as Ray stated here and Debbie KL stated on Brian's message board) then why have a batch of fake ones to begin with? This is not a case of Mal Evans forging the Beatles signatures to give to 12 year old girls who write fan letters, this is a case of fans PAYING for actual autographs and getting ripped off. Who's doing this? PC deny it's them and that Brian's team isn't responding to inquiries. Where is the publisher in all this?

Valid concerns, but PC denying any knowledge doesn't necessarily rule them out...it may turn out it wasn't entirely intentional.
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« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2016, 02:09:38 PM »

 This type of "ghost signing" has happened before.  At least some of the autographed C50 tour programs that were sold in the merchandise booths for $100 had fake or "ghost signed" Brian Wilson signatures.  We also had an issue in 2013 at the Atlantic City meet and greet.  When we bought the meet and greet package, we were promised an autograph from Brian, Al, and Dave.  At the meet and greet, management refused to allow us to get our own items signed.  Instead, they handed out presigned pictures on cheap computer paper.  The signatures from Al and David were real, but the Brian Wilson signatures had almost certainly NOT been signed by Brian himself.  Many of us complained and Brian's management eventually mailed out authentic autographed photos to those of us who had purchased the package.

 If Brian doesn't feel like signing so many autographs, then his management should not be offering them for sale.  It is fraud!
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« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2016, 02:19:18 PM »

Many times it is not the management that makes such offers, but the promoters.
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« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2016, 05:27:24 PM »

This type of "ghost signing" has happened before.  At least some of the autographed C50 tour programs that were sold in the merchandise booths for $100 had fake or "ghost signed" Brian Wilson signatures.  We also had an issue in 2013 at the Atlantic City meet and greet.  When we bought the meet and greet package, we were promised an autograph from Brian, Al, and Dave.  At the meet and greet, management refused to allow us to get our own items signed.  Instead, they handed out presigned pictures on cheap computer paper.  The signatures from Al and David were real, but the Brian Wilson signatures had almost certainly NOT been signed by Brian himself.  Many of us complained and Brian's management eventually mailed out authentic autographed photos to those of us who had purchased the package.

 If Brian doesn't feel like signing so many autographs, then his management should not be offering them for sale.  It is fraud!

Yup, here's one of those photos up for bid on eBay. Whose to blame for that?



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beach-Boys-Brian-Wilson-Al-Jardine-David-Marks-Signed-Autographed-Picture-I-am-/272419712915?hash=item3f6d7aef93:g:mRsAAOSwLF1YB86s
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« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2016, 05:44:39 PM »

Many times it is not the management that makes such offers, but the promoters.
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« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2016, 05:45:09 PM »

This type of "ghost signing" has happened before.  At least some of the autographed C50 tour programs that were sold in the merchandise booths for $100 had fake or "ghost signed" Brian Wilson signatures.  We also had an issue in 2013 at the Atlantic City meet and greet.  When we bought the meet and greet package, we were promised an autograph from Brian, Al, and Dave.  At the meet and greet, management refused to allow us to get our own items signed.  Instead, they handed out presigned pictures on cheap computer paper.  The signatures from Al and David were real, but the Brian Wilson signatures had almost certainly NOT been signed by Brian himself.  Many of us complained and Brian's management eventually mailed out authentic autographed photos to those of us who had purchased the package.

 If Brian doesn't feel like signing so many autographs, then his management should not be offering them for sale.  It is fraud!

Yup, here's one of those photos up for bid on eBay. Whose to blame for that?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beach-Boys-Brian-Wilson-Al-Jardine-David-Marks-Signed-Autographed-Picture-I-am-/272419712915?hash=item3f6d7aef93:g:mRsAAOSwLF1YB86s

 This is exactly what they gave us at the Atlantic City show.  If I remember correctly, there was so much question about Brian's signature on these crappy photos that somebody submitted one for authentication to a very well know third party authenticator, and Brian's signature failed the authentication.  It certainly looks suspicious to me and different than the 10 or so autographs that I've personally watched Brian sign over the years.

 If somebody asks a band member for a favor and the item comes back with a "ghost signature", it is not a good thing, but when a business, be it a promoter or whoever, actually sells you something that is suppose to include a hand signed autograph from a person and then delivers something else, it's fraud.  How could a company who deals in authentic autographs not notice that all of the signatures were exactly the same and obviously not authentic?  And who though that this would get by the public in the first place?
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« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2016, 05:58:47 PM »

Quote
How could a company who deals in authentic autographs not notice that all of the signatures were exactly the same and obviously not authentic?  And who though that this would get by the public in the first place?

Million dollar question. Also, keep in mind that artist management very rarely has *anything* do with situations like this, whether it's a signing, meet and greet, whatever. Usually handled by the promoters/touring company/publisher/whatever. You could probably name the number of artists who handle it "in-house" on Mickey Mouse's left hand.
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« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2016, 06:33:24 PM »

Re-reading those Facebook conversations, and it seems Premiere deals with the publisher (so it's not like Brian buys a bunch of copies and signs them and sells them directly to Premiere), so someone at the publisher could be involved and/or the cause of this.
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« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2016, 06:34:46 PM »

Quote
How could a company who deals in authentic autographs not notice that all of the signatures were exactly the same and obviously not authentic?  And who though that this would get by the public in the first place?

Million dollar question. Also, keep in mind that artist management very rarely has *anything* do with situations like this, whether it's a signing, meet and greet, whatever. Usually handled by the promoters/touring company/publisher/whatever. You could probably name the number of artists who handle it "in-house" on Mickey Mouse's left hand.
Both meet and greets I participated in within the past year with Brian were fully run by his team. Jerry Weiss ran through the rules, brought people in the room, handled getting things signed, etc.

Same with Mike & Bruce, there assistance Tara Ricart is the person who runs the whole show.
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« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2016, 06:40:16 PM »

So the handlers that take fans to and from soundchecks and other VIP events are all employed by Brian?
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« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2016, 06:42:23 PM »

Quote
Both meet and greets I participated in within the past year with Brian were fully run by his team. Jerry Weiss ran through the rules, brought people in the room, handled getting things signed, etc.

Right...my comment was more of a general nature...very few artists handle *everything* in house. In Brian's case, yes, the meet and greets to my knowledge are in-house (same with Mike and Bruce) . With the signatures, it appears to be the publisher.

Other artists are different. I keep using Scott Weiland (RIP) as an example mainly because I can speak more first-hand rather than third-hand....but his book signings were in-house, but the meet and greets certainly were not (and other things were promised like the opportunity to play paintball with him, which led to a lawsuit...).

edit


PledgeMusic....that was the name of the third-party that Scott had issues with.
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