NBA 2017 Topic

[the captain]

LOL. I'll grant him this: no former Timberwolf was as good at kicking women in the back at promotional events as JR Rider. (Sadly, real thing. Mall of America promotional event. Kicked a woman. In the back. Though to be fair, he claimed he did not kick her--he claimed he pushed her ... with his foot.)

I think my ultimate ironic jerseys of choice to wear to Wolves games would be something like Igor Rakocevic, Pat Durham, Gundars Vetra, maybe the late great Charles "Original Shaq" Shackleford (RIP!), or of course Darko. That or any of the guys we should have drafted: maybe a Steph Curry.

[SMiLE Brian]

Dammit, least Rider is a good citizen and flying dunker in NBA Jam tournament edition! On the ironic jersey front, original Shaq sounds intriguing along with a Joe (screwed the franchise) Smith or a Marbury since he a Chinese Legend.

[SMiLE Brian]

I need a Fizer or any other stub jersey from the dark Tim Floyd years (first to last came so quickly).

[the captain]

Hey, half a season that team included the guy I still think was the best high school player in Minnesota history, the great, great Khalid El-Amin. Obviously he didn't turn out to be the best, but just in terms of how he stood out above his competition and what he did as a high schooler in terms of winning, wow. So good. And he was pretty damn good as a rookie for Tim Floyd, right up until Floyd cut him midseason.

[SMiLE Brian]

Is Tim Floyd still coaching after the USC OJ Mayo fiasco? Though I grew up in Bulls halcyon days of Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich.

[the captain]

Yeah he landed at UTEP shortly after leaving USC--maybe even that next season. And true to form (for his college coaching career), he has mostly had them successful. This looks like it will be only his second losing record in seven seasons there.

[SMiLE Brian]

Gar-Pax will be impressed and rehire him...

[the captain]

They weren't in charge back then, though, were they? Wasn't he a Krause-Reinsdorf guy? But that organization certainly has a rough history with management having predetermined, handpicked coaches in waiting...

[SMiLE Brian]

Yeah Krause got jealous of Jordan and Phil Jackson during the glory years. Hence the dynasty being taken apart overnight in 1998.

[the captain]

To be fair, we knew Jackson was leaving regardless after that season: he'd said so prior to that year. Woj (who I read might be in negotiations to join ESPN, by the way) had Krause on his podcast last week or so, and he explained the dismantling in a way that did make some sense. Granted, that's 20 years later and coming from the guy who might be covering his own ass by telling revisionist history. But he was pointing out things like Jackson's imminent exit, Longley's and Rodman's health issues as their bodies broke down, Jordan's contract, etc. Basically nobody wanted to stick around unless the team was a championship contender, but financial and health considerations made that extremely unlikely, so they decided to blow it up.

But the fact that they were unable to really build anything despite some really good chances in those years is pretty sad. 1999, #1 pick (Elton Brand) and #16 pick (Ron Artest). 2000, #4 (Marcus Fizer), #6 (Chris Mihm), and #24 (Dalibor Bagaric). 2001, #4 (Eddy Curry) and via trade of Brand, #2 (Tyson Chandler). 2002, #2 (Jay Williams). 2003, #7 (Kirk Hinrich). 2004, #3 (Ben Gordon). 2006, #2 (Lamarcus Aldridge, traded for Tyrus Thomas). It's only then that they bring in Del Negro in that ballpark, draft Noah and then Rose, then have Thibs really turn that team into a legitimate winner. The fact that they had five first-rounders in 99-00, and really did nothing to further the progress of the team with them (just basically flipping them for more temporary pieces) is really sad. Wolves-like, actually. Kahn-like, to be more specific.

[SMiLE Brian]

Good points, I was only 7 years old watching them in the finals so maybe my childhood was a little spoiled basketball-wise. Nobody is worse than Kahn, you still have nightmares about his moves?

[SMiLE Brian]

image upload no size limit. Thibs needs to wear this today!

[the captain]

You know, he wasn't always entirely incorrect. More along the lines of "too cute by half." For example, he really was good for breaking up large, terrible contracts and instead gambling more on cheaper, shorter-term deals and guys with legitimate talent. He helped us move from the Trenton Hassells, Troy Hudsons, Mark Blounts, and Ricky Davises of the world into guys who at least in theory could have been really valuable, and were to varying degrees: Michael Beasley, Darko Milicic, Gerald Green.

But he'd end up outsmarting himself, moving on his moves and then moving those. Consider, as Al Jefferson seemed necessary to move (and I believe as his contract was expiring) because of Love, we shipped him to Utah for Kosta Koufos and two future firsts (2011 and 2012). Koufos is a solid backup center. No complaints for him to be part of a package for Jefferson. But that 2011 pick was Donatas Motiejunas--again, a solid player, a real talent. We traded him immediately, packaging him with Jonny Flynn and the pick that became Will Barton to Houston for Brad Miller, Chandler Parsons, another future 1st, and the rights to Nikola Mirotic.

Now is where it gets nuts.

Brad Miller played 15 games and retired.

Chandler Parsons was immediately traded back to Houston for cash.

The rights to Nikola Mirotic were immediately traded for Norris Cole, Malcolm Lee, and cash.

The first round pick later turned out to be Andre Roberson, whom we packaged with Lee for cash and a future second-rounder (Allesandro Gentile, whose rights I believe we no longer hold).

So, we traded 20-and-10 Al Jefferson for a backup center (Kosta Koufos), 15 games of Brad Miller's final season, cash, and the rights to a 2nd round pick we no longer hold. In the process, we had and moved the rights to the likes of productive players Motiejunas, Mirotic, and Parsons. Even Roberson, to some extent. Oh, and Koufos? We had him for a handful of games before moving him in the Carmelo Anthony trade, our core get-back of which was Anthony Randolph, who is no longer in the league. (We also got cash in that deal. Shocker.)

[SMiLE Brian]

Jesus, all that wheeling and dealing for nothing in the end. Kinda reminds me when the Wolves traded Kevin Garnett for all those Boston players....

[the captain]

Well to make matters worse, let's remember that Al Jefferson was the centerpiece of what we got back in that KG trade. And while he was no KG (obviously), he was young and he was really, really good in the post on offense. As I said, he was a 20-and-10 guy. But if you want to make matters worse, you can take my previous post and start one step further back: KG. We traded KG to Boston for Jefferson, Gerald Green, and Sebastian Telfair, basically. (I assume there were picks in there, too, though I think my last post probably also dealt with all those picks, i.e., we basically traded them all down and sold them eventually for cash.)

We had another awful Boston-centered trade right before moving KG, too. Szczerbiak and a 2009 1st (plus some trash) to Boston for--are you ready!?--Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, and Marcus Banks (plus some other trash). We also did get a 2nd rounder in that, which turned into Pekovic, so that was nice.

[SMiLE Brian]

Damn, that was rough patch of wacky deals, I thought with work that Jefferson and Love could have payed together. A shame about Wally, he was so good for so long on the wolves.

[the captain]

Well, Love and Jefferson had huge, huge issues defensively. Love was doughy back then, so he was even slower of foot than he is now. And Jefferson became a much better defender as time went on in a team concept, but even so he really only worked his way up to, say, slightly below average. Back then he was horrible. And neither one could protect the rim at all, so you had guys just driving on everyone. (It didn't help that our backcourts couldn't defend, either...)

So I do acknowledge that a Love-Jefferson frontcourt wasn't going to work long-term. Especially since in those days Randy Wittman BRILLIANTLY refused to let Love shoot outside of the paint. (I'm not kidding.) So you had two low-post scorers and non-defenders as the centerpiece of the team at the time.

Thankfully, eventually we brought in Adelman to coach, which helped, and then Flip to lead the organization (and eventually coach). That helped a lot. Now, frankly it's too soon to see whether Thibs is going to be a great front office guy, but hopefully he'll do all right. I like what he's done so far, which is to say nothing much. I didn't love the Dunn pick, though I'm OK with it. But his best trait as a president so far has been not doing anything drastic, just rolling with the talented young guys, and seeing where we are. I don't expect anything major at the deadline, either, though we might make peripheral moves. I'd expect this offseason to be when we do something or other, whether it's Rubio, a core guy, or certainly Baz at least.

[the captain]

OMG I just checked the injury report and Wade and Butler are both out!?!? Sadly this worries me a little: the Wolves have a long and storied tradition of blowing games to teams sitting all of their good players. (Memphis--multiple times--comes to mind.) Goddamnit. I'm having premonitions of Michael Carter Williams or Jerian Grant or Denzel Valentine kicking our asses.

[SMiLE Brian]

It's not happening with this Bulls team!

[guitarfool2002]

This is just a suggestion, either way it's cool - But would you consider making this a PM conversation since it's not on topic or music related and since the last two pages of it has been 99% a two-man conversation? If not, that's cool too but just a suggestion. Thanks either way. 

[SMiLE Brian]

Sorry, lazy Sunday with not much going on....

[guitarfool2002]

No apology necessary, just a suggestion! Cool either way.

[SMiLE Brian]

Sixers fan right?

[guitarfool2002]

Sixers fan right?

Not since Pat Croce left as GM. What happened afterward was one of the worst declines of a pro team in any sport I have ever seen. Iverson was right when he gave his "practice" press conference, that was the frustration many real fans had after Croce got the whole region supporting and loving a sad-sack team then he got shown the door and they became mediocre again, worried more about protecting Larry Brown's old-fashioned work ethics than they were about winning games on the court. Iverson has been the only, and I mean the ONLY player to energize that team and a city since Dr J and the '83 season, and they were more worried about his style than the way he played ball. More idiotic Philly management that infects all four major teams.

[SMiLE Brian]

I hear you on bad management in Chicago with the Bulls and Bears. Thank god the Cubs and Blackhawks are so damn good. The "process" that the 76ers are doing must make some interesting Philly sports talk radio.....