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Non Smiley Smile Stuff => The Sandbox => Topic started by: SMiLE Brian on September 29, 2016, 02:13:32 PM



Title: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 29, 2016, 02:13:32 PM
Lets talk about this year's league with my bulls with alpha male Rondo and Wade leading the way to disaster! :-\


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 29, 2016, 02:21:49 PM
Written and admittedly posted elsewhere a day or two ago.

West

1. Golden State (73-9) 68-14
Better at the top of the roster, I think both lack of depth and a cautious approach with aging veterans (over going for a record-breaking season) will lead to a slightly down year … if 68 wins can be considered down. I think they’ll start somewhat traditionally, presumably with Pachulia at center and Green at PF, but when they shift down Durant and Green to 4 and 5 and insert either Iguodala or Livingston, this team is going to be crazy. Chemistry might take some work, but I totally believe they can do it: this team is a bunch of mostly good guys, even if Draymond had his incidents in the past year or so. This is the title favorite again and the best team in the league again.

2. Los Angeles Clippers (53-29) 57-25
Assuming they finally get lucky with injuries, this could be the season the Clips finally make some real noise. Somehow Doc managed to bring in some steady vets who are lower risk and who, unless I’m mistaken, mostly didn’t even play for the Celtics 10 years ago. Amazing! The small forward position is still weakest, and so they really lack skilled athleticism on the wings. Wesley Johnson looks to start, and if he doesn’t, Alan Anderson will (unless they go 3-guard, which they should consider). Not ideal. But Paul has both Austin Rivers and Ray Felton backing him up, which is the best insurance they’ve had in a while. They have legitimate scoring behind DeAndre Jordan in Mo Speights, and rookie Diamond Stone could eventually be a nice little Al Jefferson kind of guy. I like Brandon Bass and rookie Brice Johnson available as backup PFs. Jamal Crawford will be himself. Blake Griffin, if healthy and not punching coworkers, could be in the MVP race. Big if, but if healthy, they challenge for the 60-win mark. (I’d rather see them implode and start over.)

3. San Antonio (67-15) 56-26
Every year they lose guys and it works out fine, but at some point you have to wonder… Especially down low, this team might be starting to struggle. They’ve lost Tim Duncan, Tiago Splitter, Boban Marjanovic, Boris Diaw, and Aron Baynes in the past two years, and now feature LaMarcus Aldridge and Pau Gasol … and Dwayne Dedmon, David Lee, Ryan Richards, and Joel Anthony. This is not an improvement, especially defensively. The starting lineup is great and there is wing depth with Kyle Anderson, Manu Ginobili, Jonathan Simmons, and maybe even rookies Livio Jean-Charles and Davis Bertans. I look to see some 3- and 4-wing lineups, total Flyin Illini 1989 style. I worry that PG could be an issue, with Parker aging, slowing, and often hurt; I love Dejounte Murray as a pick, but he’s a rookie. Patty Mills isn’t a PG. So it might be some point forward with Ginobili or Anderson at times. But oh yeah, they have a top-10 player in Kawhi Leonard and probably the best coach in basketball, so even if they fall, they’ll only fall so far.

4. Portland (44-38) 50-32
This team has a lot of ways to do things! Coupling the versatility and depth with a great player development staff, I imagine the Blazers improve yet again. They may also find themselves having to deal away some unhappy players seeking minutes. I think the idea must be to let Evan Turner initiate offense and get both guards easy points. Whether they try to keep their best players on the court and thus run with Al Farouq Aminu as a slightly small 4 or go bigger with Meyers Leonard, Ed Davis, or Noah Vonleh at that spot remains to be seen. They also have center depth, with Mason Plumlee (quietly a pretty solid player), Festus Ezeli, and even Chris Kaman, along with Leonard and Davis available as well. I’d call backup PG a weakness, but McCollum and Turner can both fill the role, and probably will over Shabazz Napier.

5. Oklahoma City (55-27) 48-34
The team some people say will struggle to make the playoffs I think will stick around in the middle of the pack. It’ll be interesting to see whether they try to surround Westbrook—a sure MVP candidate—with shooting, or with scrappy players a la Iverson-era 76ers. The starting five could be him, Oladipo, Roberson, Ilyasova, and Adams, or it could be Oladipo, Morrow/Singler, Ilyasova, and Kanter (in theory). You can go either way. The biggest issue is lack of proven wing talent. Roberson, Morrow, Singler, Alex Abrines, Daniel Hamilton, Josh Huestis…we need to see improvement, or we need to see a trade. It’ll also be very interesting to see whether Adams and Kanter improve or stagnate after such positive attention has been heaped on them the past six months.

6. Utah (40-42) 47-35
Keeping them below 50 wins was actually a hard decision, but I felt like even a 7-game jump is a lot. I didn’t want to get ahead of myself. But Utah is so loaded right now. Point guards: George Hill, Dante Exum, Shelvin Mack, Raul Neto. Shooting guards: Rodney Hood, Alex Burks. Small forwards: Gordon Hayward, Joe Johnson, Joe Ingles. Power forwards: Derrick Favors, Trey Lyles, Boris Diaw, Joel Bolomboy. Centers: Rudy Goubert, Jeff Withey (and Diaw, Favors). They are a playoff team almost for sure. This team could really be dynamite.

7. Houston (41-41) 45-37
The new talent and fresh voice should help, but last year a lot of people pegged this as the second-best team in the West and we saw what happened. Horrible. My biggest question is, who starts at point guard? I actually suspect the answer might be James Harden, because Patrick Beverly isn’t a good enough spot-up shooter and while a good defender, hasn’t played so well while battling constant injuries. Plus D’Antoni is famous for his short bench, and if he wants to keep his best players on the floor, that might necessitate Harden as PG (to get Eric Gordon or KJ McDaniel on the court, as well as Trevor Ariza and Corey Brewer). Ryan Anderson should really help a lot, and he complements presumptive starting center Clint Capela. I wonder if Sam Dekker can fight his way into the lineup, as theoretically he could do both what Ariza and Brewer do.

8. Minnesota (29-53) 43-39
The eighth spot was tough for me: Minnesota or Denver? Or pull a shenanigan and remove Houston just from spite? I decided I had to go Wolves, homerism or not. I just love most of this roster. I want more shooting, sure. But I think we might have three or even four future All-Stars on this team. KAT might be an all-league player this year. It’s going to be good stuff.

9. Denver (33-49) 43-39
I’ve mentioned shortages of wings on some teams—the Clippers, for example. That is NOT the issue here. Wow. Counting guys from combo guards to combo forwards (i.e., guys who can play on the wing), they have, in roughly descending order of likely capabilities this year: Danilo Gallinari, Gary Harris, Wilson Chandler, Will Barton, Jamal Murray, Malik Beasley, JaKarr Sampson, Axel Toupane. EIGHT GUYS! I didn’t even include Mike Miller or Robbie Hummel, much less DJ Kennedy. Then, oh yeah, they do have two very competent centers (Jokic and Nursic) and three solid PFs (Faried, Darrell Arthur, talented rookie Juan Hernangomez). The issue is just at the point, and they talent is there in Mudiay. It will all come down to: can he stay healthy, can he improve as a point guard, can he improve as a shooter? Jameer Nelson is not a legitimate solution as backup, you have to wonder if they plan to use Jamal Murray there.

10. Dallas (42-40) 41-41
There is a lot riding on Harrison Barnes’ shoulders, and to a lesser extent, Wes Matthews’ recovery. Barnes is expected (and paid) to go from being an 11, 5, and 2 guy in 30 mpg to probably 18-22, 7, and 4 in 32 mpg. There should be more shots for him, obviously, but with them will come a lot more defensive attention. Last time he had that pressure was as a freshman at UNC, where he was…average. Matthews was surprisingly good coming off a torn ACL, but he has to be more the Portland guy (15 ppg, 45 FG%, 39 3pt%) than he was last year (12 ppg, 39 FG%, 36 3pt%). He also has to be a stopper. It’s a lot to ask someone about to turn 30. Beyond that, still a lot of patches that may suffice, or may be torn right off. Can Deron Williams stay reasonably healthy, in shape, and confident so that he is a legit starter again? Can Andrew Bogut stay healthy? Can youngsters Justin Anderson and Dwight Powell get better fast? Can Dirk hang in there? There are a lot of ifs. My prediction is based more on the franchise’s history of making it work than objective review.

11. Phoenix (23-59) 38-42
Every couple of years, Phoenix looks like an up-and-coming team with a whole new batch of talent. The story here is the backcourt, because the talented young bigs aren’t likely to produce yet. I’m envisioning Eric Bledsoe paired with Devin Booker, backed up by Tyler Ulis and Brandon Knight. That’s four good guards. (All from Kentucky. Are you kidding me?) The Tyson Chandler/Alex Len competition figures to get interesting, because sooner or later Len is going to supplant the vet. The forwards may well be the two chemistry guys, PJ Tucker and Jared Dudley, because Dudley can step out to shoot the ball (while both are gritty and will defend without demanding the ball), but TJ Warren will fight for minutes on the wing. I love Dragan Bender and Marquis Chriss is a great athlete, but those young 4/5s both seem unlikely to do much this season. Still, with the tumors extracted from the team, the ship should be righted and they ought to reach mid to high 30s for wins.

12. Los Angeles Lakers (17-65) 31-51
Maybe the most improved team in the league? As bad as they were last year, there was already talent on the team: it was just badly coached and stuck watching Kobe punish the game of basketball one brick at a time. But a core of D’Angelo Russell, Jordan Clarkson, Brandon Ingram, and Julius Randle (with Anthony Brown, Larry Nance Jr, Thomas Robinson, and Ivica Zubac around as well)? That’s one of the top 3-5 young groups in the league. This season it’ll be a blend, with Luol Deng starting out the year at SF (though he’ll be overtaken) and probably Timofey Mozgov in the middle slowing things down. You still have to wonder why Nick Young is on the roster, and Lou Williams might be little more than a fading sixth man stealing time from better prospects. But on coaching and Kobelessness alone, this team improves a lot.

13. Memphis (42-40) 30-52
Color me pessimistic. If everything goes perfectly, the Grizzlies’ current iteration may have one last gasp at a top-four seed. But it won’t. Marc Gasol, a 31-year-old (very) big man, is coming off a serious injury and a season that wasn’t very good prior to it. Zach Randolph is 34 and it also seemed like mercy when he was shut down. Mike Conley, the highest paid player in NBA history, has always been an underrated point guard…but never a real star. And he’s also coming off a serious injury as he nears age 30. The wings? Tony Allen is 34 and never could score; Vince Carter could, but is 39! Oh, and Jordan Adams, out for the his second straight year with injury. The “youth movement” focuses on Chandler Parsons and his oft-injured knees. Then it’s role players like Brandan Wright and James Ennis, or rookie prospects like Deyonta Davis and Wade Baldwin. Sure, the stars could align. Sure they could.

14. Sacramento (33-49) 23-59
The anti-Spurs. Terrible organization. Incomprehensible moves. Built around a petulant brat, and it shows, yet they draft two more centers (Willie Cauley-Stein and Georgios Papagiannis) in consecutive lotteries (and sign another serviceable vet in Kosta Koufos besides). Their starting point guard—who is backup quality—is Darren Collison, likely to miss time for suspension related to domestic assault. The team will likely turn to Ty Lawson, coming off his own league disciplinary issues and an awful season. Their shooting guards haven’t, not in years. Aron Afflalo seems to have joined Matt Barnes in just taking a paycheck to stay in California, but neither is all that valuable, especially for a terrible team where their chemistry benefits are for naught. They add rookies (Papagiannis, wing Malachi Richardson, and frail face-up big Skal Labissiere, who looked so terrified in college that he apparently decided to try his luck against NBA players?) into a terrible place for rookies. Lastly, Rudy Gay is the perfect King (a stats guy whose ex-teams inevitably improve upon his departure), and he loudly and desperately wants out. So maybe there’s hope.

15. New Orleans (30-52) 22-60
Last year’s preseason darling may be one of this year’s train wrecks. Jrue Holiday and Tyreke Evans will miss the beginning of the season. Lance Stephenson is the cavalry, which will do nothing to help the team’s ball-movement problems. (Alvin Gentry or not, this team is not running that Phoenix-Golden State offense of his.) You have to wonder what more Anthony Davis can do, because he isn’t getting much more help. Buddy Hield might supplant Lance and Alonzo Gee earlier than later, but he’s not enough. And that center spot? Aging and broken Omer Asik and Alexis Ajinca are big, slow, and pretty bad. While Davis may not like it, the team might be smart to move him into the middle and start Terence Jones at PF.

 
East

1. Cleveland (57-25) 54-28
Yes, the defending champs are a #1 seed, but I see a worse season even than last year’s tumultuous run. The returning core is enough to stay at or near the top of the conference, but I don’t think any of the issues are actually resolved. They’re still not going to have a way to use Kevin Love to near his capabilities while also keeping some rim protection and offensive rebounding. They are even older on the wings, with returning Richard Jefferson and James Jones joined by Mike Dunleavy. Kyrie Irving still doesn’t defend or pass. Plus you have to assume LeBron will sit, Love will miss games with injuries, the old guys (Jefferson, Jones, Dunleavy, Chris Andersen, Mo Williams) will sit or get hurt… JR Smith is still absent, and I don’t know whether that helps or hurts. I see a dramatic year from the champs that may end more or less well, but the talent in the East is improving. This is a very tentative grip on #1.

2. Boston (48-34) 53-29
The Celtics will jump from scrappy middling playoff contenders to serious challengers for conference supremacy. They lose no one of consequence (depending on your view of Sullinger) but add Al Horford, Gerald Green, and Jaylen Brown. Normally I’d say a Horford-Thomas led team just isn’t good enough at the top of the roster to win big, but Stevens has been such a good coach and they have so many above-average guys all over the roster, I think it will be. I assume they’ll roll with Thomas / Bradley / Crowder / A. Johnson / Horford, with significant roles for Smart, Green, Brown, and Olynyk. We’ll see whether Young, Hunter, Jerebko, Rozier, Mickey, or anyone else can wedge their ways in.

3. Detroit (44-38) 49-33
Things look good for another jump, but actually I am a little suspicious of things: lots of bigs, not a lot of competent PGs or wings. Reggie Jackson, but then you’re dropping to Ish Smith, Ray McCallum, or Lorenzo Brown. Yikes. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope and Stanley Johnson on the wings, sure. Even Reggie Bullock, to a lesser extent. But then Michael Gbinije, Trey Freeman. That’s it. Up front, it’s absurd how good and deep they are. The starters are probably Marcus Morris or Tobias Harris (unless they put him as a big 3) and Andre Drummond, but behind them you’ve got Morris or Harris, Jon Leuer, Henry Ellenson, Aron Baynes, Boban Marjanovic. That’s seven legit PFs or Cs of different types, but without a lot of guys to get the ball down the court or into the post. You wonder if a trade could be coming to straighten that out.

4. Toronto (56-26) 48-34
I can’t fully explain my selection, other than to say I am not convinced by this team and enough other teams are improved and thus some of those easy wins last year won’t be there this year. That said, I acknowledge that they had to play without DeMarre Carroll, for example, which means last season wasn’t even as good as they theoretically could have been. But there it is. But obviously, with only Jakon Poeltl and Jared Sullinger (both lesser-but-duplicative versions of guys they already have in Valanciunas and Patterson), they think staying the course is a good idea. Not a lot of dependable 3-pt shooting, not the best passing team (and they lost James Johnson, who is a really good passer), not the best rebounding team (and they lost Bismack Biyombo, who was a really good rebounder). We’ll see…

5. Indiana (45-37) 46-36
Strange situation. I think the talent is slightly better (and Paul George is a year into being healthy, which means this is his REAL bounce-back year). But the change in coaching from Vogel to McMillian is worth thinking twice about, too. We’ll just have to see how it goes. I wish Monta Ellis were a 6th man, but am not sure who could start at SG if that were the case (unless you wanted to go nuts and move P George back there). But defensively, Ellis is not a great way to start a game, especially if he slows as he ages. You have to expect a nice year from Myles Turner, and Al Jefferson could be a dominant scorer off the bench against second-teamers. Lot of pretty good guys, with the questions being player development (Joe Young, Glenn Robinson III, Georges Niang, Alex Poythress, Myles Turner) and coaching.

6. Washington (41-41) 45-37
This year the Wizards seem finally ready to go smaller, which they threatened the past year and a half at least. The true bigs (meaning C, PF, or C/PF combo, but not guys who are combo forwards) on the roster are Marcin Gortat, Ian Mahinmi, JJ Hickson, Jason Smith, Andrew Nicholson. Markieff Morris is kind of on that border of combo forward. But regardless, the days of a Gortat-Nene front line are gone. It could be interesting to see how they try to roll with not only Wall-Beal-Porter, but Oubre, Satoransky, Trey Burke, and Marcus Thornton. It’s easy to imagine Markieff Morris shifting to center and Porter sliding down to 4 to get three true guards/wings on the floor. If everyone stays healthy—a big if for a team with Wall and Beal—they should be looking promising again this year.

7. Charlotte (48-34) 40-42
I like Steve Clifford, several of these players, and their recent history, but I can’t see this team living up to last year after their backcourt losses. This is a really unbalanced roster. Worse, you bring back a hopefully healthy Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, but unless his shot is much, much better, he just hurts a roster that already has a shooting shortage. The Roy Hibbert signing, even for a coach who loves defense and bigs, makes no sense for anyone on earth unless he rediscovers a game that disappeared two years or more ago. The backup PG is either Ramon Sessions or, if you let me coach, Nic Batum. There isn’t a backup SF unless it’s also Batum, meaning Bellineli is playing a lot at SG. There is a lot of duplication in Cody Zeller, Marvin Williams, Frank Kaminsky, and Spencer Hawes. I trust in Clifford’s schemes and I do like Walker, Batum, Bellineli, Zeller, and MKG. I just can’t see this being a high seed.

8. Atlanta (48-34) 39-43
Not a fan of what’s going on right now. The Howard signing, hometown boy or not, makes no sense, especially for an organization that has prided itself on skill over athleticism, and first and foremost on shooting. Speaking of which, you draft two first-round wings—smart!!—but neither one can shoot? I like DeAndre Bembry especially, but to take both him and Taurean Prince, wow. Your PG situation is resolved (with the only competition at backup, with Jarrett Jack and Malcolm Delaney in that fight), but Kyle Korver might really be slowing down and Tim Hardaway Jr hasn’t proved much. I assume they’ll push pace more with Schroder and some of these guys (Bazemore, Bembry, Sefolosha, etc.) as opposed to going bigger. But it feels like a down year as they rethink things.

9. Chicago (42-40) 38-44
Centers? We don’t need no stinking centers. Robin Lopez, you’re it. After that, we’re presumably going smaller-ball, with a bazillion options for “bigs”: Taj Gibson, Bobby Portis, Nikola Mirotic, and Cristiano Felicio are all considered gems by the team. I think we’ll see a lot of lineups with two PFs and no C. We’ll also be going 3-guard in the starting lineup, because it’s going to be Rondo, Wade, and Butler.  Doug McDermott probably isn’t thrilled but such is life. Ditto Jerian Grant, though at least he’ll get to learn to shoot badly from one of the all-time greats in Rondo. It’ll be interesting to see whether Denzel Valentine can sneak into the rotation, ahead of Snell or Grant. Even with aging Wade and declining Rondo, this team should be too talented to be awful, but too bad to be great.

10. New York (32-50) 36-46
This is such a strange team! The presumed starting five—Derrick Rose, Courtney Lee, Carmelo Anthony, Kristaps Porzingis, and Joakim Noah—is on paper almost as good as there is in the league. Certainly top 5-7, theoretically. But let’s talk about those guys getting onto the court… Last year they missed a combined 92 games, or 22.4% of games possible. 53 for Noah, 16 for Rose, 10 apiece for Anthony and Zinger, and 3 for Lee. And of course getting chemistry between a ball-dominant point guard who can’t shoot and a ball-dominant wing scorer who can (and really wants to) is going to be interesting (to put it mildly). The next best proven player? Brandon Jennings, who is both a stylistic and injury-history concern. And after that? One of the most unusual, maybe awful, totally unproven teams in a while. JP Tokoto, Cleanthony Early, Lance Thomas, Willy Hernangomez, Mindaugas Kuzminskas, Marshall Plumlee, Sasha Vujacic…I mean, this is really, really, really a bad bench. I’d put them down for 45 wins anyway if the starters were a sure thing to all be healthy all year. But, well, come on…

11. Orlando (35-47) 35-47
It’s only because of my respect for Frank Vogel and my CroatLove for Mario Hezonja that I let Orlando stand pat. They did some weird things, man. Weird things. They added talent (after having traded away talent), but what they added is more duplicative or just weird than what they had to begin with. So great, now you have spent huge money on role playing Bismack Biyombo, but none of your PFs (or even Vucevic) is really a 3-pt threat, so your spacing is rough on offense. You traded quite a bit to rent Serge Ibaka, who seems to be stagnating. You’ve still got your wing logjam with Fournier, Hezonja, and Aaron Gordon, and you address it by signing Jeff Green? For money!? And Elfrid Payton, whom I love, needs to learn to shoot the ball or DJ Augustin is going to get a lot of minutes…which is fine if Ibaka and Biyombo are on the back line to compensate defensively, but if it’s Vucevic you’re in trouble.

12. Milwaukee (33-49) 27-55
We’re about to learn an awful lot about Rashad Vaughn, Giannis Antetokounmpo, or Malcolm Brogdon, because with OJ Mayo banned and Khris Middleton hurt for (most of) the year, somebody has to play SG. I was ready to consider this a rising team. Now, not. Because if it isn’t one of those guys, it’s presumably Jason Terry seeing heavy minutes. And that means nobody wins. The Bucks did address outside shooting, but unfortunately they did so exclusively at the PF position, with Mirza Teletovic and Steve Novak, neither of whom will play much because Jabari Parker is their PF (unless we play musical chairs to get Giannis at SG, moving Parker to SF). And Greg Monroe is still a terrible fit for a wannabe uptempo team who uses bigs as screeners or rebounders, not as post players. I expect John Henson to get more time, even Miles Plumlee might be favored, unless they just showcase Monroe to move him.

13. Philadelphia (10-72) 25-57
It’ll be fun, anyway. If Jerryd Bayless can defend PGs, we’re going to see a lot of Ben Simmons running the point, Bayless and Gerald Henderson probably on the wings as dual SGs, one of the centers, and … somebody else. A second true big? A second versatile guy, like Saric? Another shooter, like Stauskas once sort of was or Timothy Luwawu wants to be? Regardless, I think this infusion of talent is serious and will help in the wins column. When in a single season have we seen a team add the rookie TALENT of Joel Embiid, Dario Saric, Timothy Luwawu, and Ben Simmons? We don’t know how it will play out, but it’s amazing as a curiosity.

14. Miami (48-34) 23-59
Miami worse than Philadelphia? I’m thinking so. You lose Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade, Luol Deng, and Joe Johnson, but you add … Derrick Williams, Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, James Johnson, and Luke Babbitt. One of your primary options is now Hassan Whiteside. You’re depending on him and Goran Dragic to produce HUGE while hoping that Justise Winslow, Tyler Johnson, and Josh Richardson develop quickly to even approach your dreams for them. This might be a full-on tanking season, if Riley can stomach it. They’ve got a ton of cap room for next year anyway, and the draft class is supposed to be great. I think we may say goodbye to Goran Dragic and see some mysterious injuries to these guys. Wouldn’t surprise me to see this team with 15 wins in their first 41 games and then just shut down.

15. Brooklyn (21-61) 15-67
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the worst team in the league! (cheers and applause) This roster makes last year’s look OK. Anything is possible, but it seems like we’re looking at a starting five of Jeremy Lin, Bojan Bogdanovic, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, A Statue of Luis Scola, and Brook Lopez. Other key rotation guys? I am guessing Greivous Vasquez, Randy Foye, Caris LeVert, Trevor Booker, and Chris McCullough. A few years ago people worried the Nets would buy their way to a title-winning super-team. Ahahahaha. This rules. Wow. This bench v Knicks bench would be so fun to watch! I will say they have some interesting athletes (RHJ, LeVert, McCullough, Isaiah Washington). But not a whole lot in the “basketball” department...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Emily on September 29, 2016, 02:23:05 PM
I have a sports but not basketball question, but it's not worthy of its own thread and I thought it best to ask the question in a thread where sports-followers will be.
I'm NOT trying to discuss anything political or socio-political or anything. Just trying to get flat information.
I just saw a video posted elsewhere of a commercial for headphones or something that was made last year, before this year's hubbub, featuring Colin Kaepernick. It showed him riding a bus, then walking, through an angry crowd yelling things at him.

So, my question is: Was he a controversial figure previous to the anthem business?

Again, I am NOT seeking to discuss the anthem thing. Just, the commercial seems to portray him as controversial and it was made before the anthem thing, and I'd never heard of him before the anthem thing.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Emily on September 29, 2016, 02:25:00 PM
And (the) captain: what do the two pairs of numbers above each team represent? I'm guessing one is a win-loss from last season - the other I have no guess.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 29, 2016, 02:36:32 PM
And (the) captain: what do the two pairs of numbers above each team represent? I'm guessing one is a win-loss from last season - the other I have no guess.

Oh sorry, I should have explained that. The numbers in parentheses are last year's record, the ones after them are my predictions for this year's record. But I should note, I don't put much stock in predictions, mine or otherwise. There are too many variables to pretend anyone has any real idea. It's more just for fun, to give general impressions, to generate conversation.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 29, 2016, 02:39:00 PM
I have a sports but not basketball question, but it's not worthy of its own thread and I thought it best to ask the question in a thread where sports-followers will be.
I'm NOT trying to discuss anything political or socio-political or anything. Just trying to get flat information.
I just saw a video posted elsewhere of a commercial for headphones or something that was made last year, before this year's hubbub, featuring Colin Kaepernick. It showed him riding a bus, then walking, through an angry crowd yelling things at him.

So, my question is: Was he a controversial figure previous to the anthem business?

Again, I am NOT seeking to discuss the anthem thing. Just, the commercial seems to portray him as controversial and it was made before the anthem thing, and I'd never heard of him before the anthem thing.

I don't think he was particularly controversial. He had ups and downs as a player, and being a quarterback, that always generates a certain amount of controversy. (For most franchises, nobody is more beloved than the backup quarterback, and nobody is more hated than a struggling starting quarterback.) But as far as I know, it was just basic, boring "controversy" along those lines: after previous success, then struggles, should he play or not, etc. Someone who follows the NFL more closely may be able to say more about it. But my guess was they were just playing on the omnipresent athletes' meme of "proving wrong all the haters and doubters."


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 29, 2016, 02:46:44 PM
I was mad at Kaepernick (from a traditional Americanana guy)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Emily on September 29, 2016, 02:57:01 PM
Thanks for answering both of my questions. During my very brief period of following basketball, about 25 years ago, I was a Celtics fan (local team big deal = I paid attention), so I'm pleased you think they'll do well this season, because I still have irrational remnants of fondness for them.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 29, 2016, 03:01:57 PM
Sports fandom is nothing if not a collection of irrational remnants of fondness (or dislike).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 29, 2016, 03:12:38 PM
Agreed Captain (waving Cubs flag from 1945) :hat


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on September 29, 2016, 03:34:53 PM
Cavs fan since we had a bloated shawn kemp :lol. Should be back to back champs but hey hopefully they do it again
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/664465/IrvingWow2.gif)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 29, 2016, 03:47:40 PM
Wow you've had a rough time as a fan! You came in after the nice Mark Price / Brad Daugherty teams and started with the Fat Kemp? Ooof. That franchise was atrocious, then obviously more interesting during LeBron's first go-round, then atrocious again, then LeBron of course returns. But wow. Better than being a Wolves guy, I guess...but still.

I'd bet you the Cavs don't repeat though. Though they do look to win the East again. Other teams are improving, but none to what seems like contender level.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 29, 2016, 03:54:10 PM
Wolves are improving Captain! ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 29, 2016, 04:04:24 PM
Oh I have no doubt of that. If anything I worry this year's team will face too many expectations because KAT is a true candidate for All-NBA this season--I really believe that. And both Andrew Wiggins and Zach LaVine could legitimately be All-Stars in the future, if not perennial ones, certainly occasional ones. That's without even bringing in other prospects (Kris Dunn) and legitimate rotation guys (Ricky Rubio, Gorgui Dieng, Shabazz Muhammad, Nemanja Bjelica, Jordan Hill, Cole Aldrich). I do think we'll be sniffing the 8 seed, but that's probably as much as can be asked of this team.

I remember--20 years ago now!--the first go-round in the playoffs. It was the same thing, with a core of Garnett, Marbury, and Gugliotta lifting the team to be an 8 seed only to be walloped by a fantastic Rockets team.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on September 29, 2016, 04:10:01 PM
Yes its been a wild ride, i didnt jumpship like the bandwagon fans here you know lenron groupies ::)
  btw i have an andrew wiggins cavs jersey :'( sad what they did to him but he's gonna be great, wolves are gonna get their time just wait

Im not ruling out a repeat as long as Lebron is leading they'll be tough, but hey us Clevelanders are used to losses so just the 1 ring meant ALOT to the city and diehard fans but i can wait 50 yrs for another NBA title


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 29, 2016, 04:54:08 PM
Oh, I won't rule OUT a repeat. I just don't think it's the most likely scenario this year. Between a shockingly old roster (outside the real core), injury-prone Irving and Love, still pretty bad wing players other than LeBron, and chemistry issues I am not convinced have been cured, I just foresee issues. Again. The question is whether they can overcome them again and hold it together against good teams. They should make the E.C. Finals almost by default, maybe not even struggling much to come out of them and into the Finals. But we'll see. It's not impossible that Boston, Toronto, or even Detroit or (doubtfully) Washington gives them a handful.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on September 29, 2016, 05:14:50 PM
Im curious to see how GSW are gonna be, how Durants gonna fit in.
I get leaving OKC but man even Lebron went to a 5th seed team who got beat by Boston, the same team that ended lebrons first run in Cleveland in the next round(game 5 was one for the ages)
 Hope it works out for them to say the least


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 29, 2016, 05:32:16 PM
It's going to be interesting, for sure, to see how they handle their top-end talent. I mean, a foursome of Curry, Thompson, Durant, and Green is unmatched in the recent history of the NBA anyway. Durant and Curry are almost indisputably top 5 players, Green is probably in the 10-15 range, and Thompson is probably in the 15-20 range. That's insane. The cupboard isn't bare after that, but it's not so impressive. Aging Iguodala and Pachulia, Livingston...not a lot proven after that besides some end-of-bench corpses like Anderson Varejao and David West, or youngish guys who haven't done much yet. But still, that top four. Or even seven. Yikes.

I don't begrudge KD going there just because that's life. We all choose the best employer of those options available to us. Plus--you heard it here first, folks--let's keep in mind Curry is in his contract year. I wouldn't be shocked to see him move on, including to play for his hometown Hornets and M. Jordan. How's that for something to think about? But point being this might be a one-year experiment with a wholly different team in 2017-18, conceivably lacking BOTH Durant and Curry. (Though I'd assume if Curry left, Durant would stay, barring something going horribly awry.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on September 29, 2016, 06:01:21 PM
You're right i just looked it up only thompson and green are signed for a couple more seasons thats it so its championship or bust, if they dont gel by All star break then it'll be tough for them

I dont care he left(same as Lebron) I just didnt think he would, he loved it there. the OKC/GSW games should be great this season hes definately a top 5 right now and the GSW fans on bleacherreport are down to earth and not cocky unlike those miami bandwagonners
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/664465/LebronBuzzer.gif)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurferDownUnder on September 29, 2016, 07:28:14 PM
Lets go my Sixers!!! I've got a need for Embiid  >:D >:D >:D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurferDownUnder on September 29, 2016, 07:41:16 PM
Also who are you guy's picks for ROTY?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 30, 2016, 07:07:54 AM
Lets go my Sixers!!! I've got a need for Embiid  >:D >:D >:D

If he plays 41 games, I'd be shocked. They're going to (wisely) be really cautious. It's going to be sad if he's another Greg Oden kind of situation. Or even an Andrew Bynum or Sam Bowie situation, where he manages to get some sort of valuable career but still far short of what potential would suggest. He is so talented, I was amazed how much better he got during his one college season. But now he hasn't played in a couple years (and so presumably hasn't developed a lot, skill-wise) and of course injuries seem more problematic for the bigger guys. I hope for the best for him, but history isn't on his side. Zydrunas Ilgauskas is the only guy I can think of around that size who had early injury concerns (Z had serious foot problems and surgery before he was drafted) that mostly evaporated over time. Most everybody else goes the other way: more and more injuries.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 30, 2016, 07:19:35 AM
Also who are you guy's picks for ROTY?

Hmm. Usually you can count on ROY being a stats-based thing more than really playing well--and scoring being disproportionate in the calculations--so a lot will come down to opportunity to get baskets. Here are thoughts on a few candidates. I'll list the top five picks, and a few other guys who seem like possible choices.

Ben Simmons - he's going to stuff the stat sheet but probably not score a lot or shoot a high percentage. My guess is his line ends up along the lines of 11 ppg, 8 rpg, 6 apg, but that if he hits 40% FG, I'd be surprised because he not only shoots badly from outside (or even midrange) but doesn't finish very well. His scoring in college was mostly based on size and power, which he doesn't really have compared to NBA bigs. He's pretty average in that respect in this league. I mean, he's big and strong, but so are all the other posts.

Brandon Ingram - he's not going to start--Luol Deng is, at least at first--and he's so skinny and weak, he's going to have a hard time doing much beyond hitting jumpshots. With bigger, quicker defenders on him, that will also be a struggle to adjust. He's going to be very good, but not likely ROY.

Jaylen Brown - no chance at ROY. Can't shoot. He's a little like Justice Winslow last year in terms of his game and likely impact. He'll be a good player, but he's on a good team and won't be a stat guy regardless.

Dragan Bender - I love his talent, but he's really young, pretty skinny, and competing with another lottery pick (Marquis Chriss) who plays the same position, to say nothing of established vets Alex Len, Tyson Chandler, etc.  No shot.

Kris Dunn - he's a popular pick, but I think people are forgetting the Wolves have a pretty darn good player ahead of him in Ricky Rubio. Yes, if Rubio is dealt, there will be a chance as Dunn leads a talented team that will be getting a lot of press because of other players. But even if they do move Rubio ... when will that be? It won't be soon, as they'll want to be sure Dunn is ready to step in. My guess is that if it happens, it will be near the deadline in February. That means 2.3 of the season, Dunn will be playing backup minutes. Hard to get ROY numbers like that.

Buddy Hield - sleeper pick, because Eric Gordon is gone, Tyreke Evans is hurt, and Lance Stephenson may well earn his ticket out of town because he has a history of wearing out his welcome. Somebody has to take perimeter shots, and Hield is at least as good a choice as Quincy Pondexter or Solomon Hill.

Dario Saric - an older rookie who stayed overseas a few years. Really talented, really tough ... but a lesser version of Simmons, frankly. Better shooter, but not a great shooter. Grittier game for sure. But really, it seems hard to imagine them both playing together, and Simmons is going to play 30+ mpg. So...

SLEEPERS: Malachi Richardson in Sacramento because that team is trash on the wings, and Caris LeVert at Brooklyn because that team is trash, period. Both very long shots, but they could get opportunities and can both score points.

My pick? Kind of boring: Ben Simmons.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: bachelorofbullets on September 30, 2016, 07:37:42 AM
I have a sports but not basketball question, but it's not worthy of its own thread and I thought it best to ask the question in a thread where sports-followers will be.
I'm NOT trying to discuss anything political or socio-political or anything. Just trying to get flat information.
I just saw a video posted elsewhere of a commercial for headphones or something that was made last year, before this year's hubbub, featuring Colin Kaepernick. It showed him riding a bus, then walking, through an angry crowd yelling things at him.

So, my question is: Was he a controversial figure previous to the anthem business?

Again, I am NOT seeking to discuss the anthem thing. Just, the commercial seems to portray him as controversial and it was made before the anthem thing, and I'd never heard of him before the anthem thing.

He was controversial in the fact that he signed a long term contract with the 49ers in 2014 that was designed by the team to screw him over.  It was much talked about at the time.  He also is controversial because he was benched and removed from the starting quarterback role in 2015 because of "declining performance".  This was after he led the team to two conference championship games.  Pretty much everything about him has been controversial.  He is the poster boy for how poorly the players are treated by the league.   


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurferDownUnder on September 30, 2016, 04:49:36 PM
And now Ben just went down  :'( :'( :'( Excuse me but FUUUUUCK


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 30, 2016, 04:50:52 PM
 :'( it's a sixer thang


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurferDownUnder on September 30, 2016, 05:19:40 PM
:'( it's a sixer thang

And I'm sick of that fact  >:( fingers crossed Joel and Dario can have some impact, maybe even Timothe too!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 30, 2016, 05:34:02 PM
I read two months is a typical time missed for this kind of "Jones fracture." He's young and generally healthy--and not 7+ feet--so hopefully it's a one-time thing quickly overcome, not a lingering injury. Crazy as it sounds considering he's the #1 pick in the draft, a versatile player not seen in a rookie since LeBron James, and the presumptive ROY, but they should be fine regardless. They have Nerlens Noel, Robert Covington, Jerami Grant, and Dario Saric available at PF. So they're covered in that respect. And while Simmons was going to play some halfcourt offense PG, they did bring in Sergio Rodriguez, who is one of the better passers in the NBA (yeah, you read that right ... re-read it if you want) on the roster this season. And Jerryd Bayless is a perfectly competent lead guard, too.

They weren't going to compete for a title, or even the playoffs, anyway. So while it sucks, it's fine in the big picture as long as they get him healthy.

Shouldn't affect Luwawu, though. He's more a 2/3. He'll get his time if and when he beats out Gerald Henderson, Nik Stauskas, etc.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on October 01, 2016, 05:38:09 AM
Lets talk about this year's league with my bulls with alpha male Rondo and Wade leading the way to disaster! :-\

Being a Detroit Pistons fan, I've despised the Bulls for as long as I can remember. However, now that they drafted Denzel Valentine, I find that I have a rooting interest in the team. So here's to hoping that Denzel manages a great rookie season, while the rest of the team stinks!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 01, 2016, 07:32:21 AM
Lets talk about this year's league with my bulls with alpha male Rondo and Wade leading the way to disaster! :-\

Being a Detroit Pistons fan, I've despised the Bulls for as long as I can remember. However, now that they drafted Denzel Valentine, I find that I have a rooting interest in the team. So here's to hoping that Denzel manages a great rookie season, while the rest of the team stinks!

He's certainly going to have to earn any playing time on that team. I think he could play some SG, PG, and SF in the NBA, but that means he's behind Rajon Rondo (and maybe Jerian Grant), Dwyane Wade, and Jimmy Butler (and maybe Tony Snell). It'll be rough going. On this team, I think his best bet is to hit perimeter shots. The team really lacks perimeter shooting, so if he can do that, it should keep him on the court.

You must be pretty excited about Detroit this year. The biggest problem I see is just too many pretty good players who deserve time, especially among the bigs.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on October 02, 2016, 04:37:20 AM
I'll get back with you when I see that Drummond can actually make a free throw  :-\


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 02, 2016, 07:20:32 AM
I'll get back with you when I see that Drummond can actually make a free throw  :-\

Honestly I think that's a big piece of some of the other bigs that they've signed. Baynes is a career 80% FT guy; Marjanovic is 76%; Leuer is 72% (and 76% last year); Morris is 70%; and Ellenson shot 75% in college. If he isn't at least solid, they'll just take him off the floor (again) and let the better shooters do it. Plus, Baynes and Marjanovic in particular have proved you can pass it to them in the post, where they are likely to draw fouls. The others, being more face-up guys, are a bit different.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 02, 2016, 10:44:49 AM
Last night there were two preseason games: the NBA season has (sort of) begun!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 02, 2016, 04:31:27 PM
Im sooooo glad preseason started cant take the Browns anymore for this season 0-4 :lol
Simmons is out 3 months hopefully philly just cant catch a break :o


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 03, 2016, 04:21:04 PM
Im sooooo glad preseason started cant take the Browns anymore for this season 0-4 :lol
Simmons is out 3 months hopefully philly just cant catch a break :o

In a strange way, I think it is helpful for them: they can now see what they have in Dario Saric (and decide whether to keep him around or move him for something more useful to them, such as better and better-shooting wing players). They can also help alleviate the glut down low in general by getting Noel some minutes at PF as well as C, where they have Okafor and Embiid. Hopefully by the time Simmons returns, they can make more informed choices about who to move, for what, etc. They weren't going to be winning much this year anyway.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 08, 2016, 08:49:08 PM
I'm really looking forward to this season! I'll have a lot to say as the season progresses. Are there any other Knicks fans out there?  I'm hoping Ron Baker makes the team. I was impressed by him during the summer league, though I wasn't sold he'd make it in the NBA. Solid 3 and D player, strong build. It's early in the preseason, but I like him as a 3rd string PG who can also play off the ball. He played really well against the Nets tonight alongside the starters. I'm also impressed by Chasson Randle. He's knocking down 3s and making things happen. Not sure if he can run the team adequately or if he's more of an undersized SG. Either way I'm very high on both of these players, both of which are currently on the outside looking in. The Knicks have 15 other players w/guaranteed contracts. Marshall Plumlee did not impress me during the summer league but he is starting to win me over. He plays very aggressive, throws his weight around, which I think is ideal in a player potentially playing alongside KP. I'd like to make room for Baker/Randle by cutting Justin Holiday and Lou Amundson. JP Tokoto hasn't shown me anything either. Though perhaps I haven't been paying close enough attention? Btw, Brandon Jennings looked very impressive tonight physically. Looked 100% healthy and very quick. He helped break the game open with his play. I'm genuinely excited about some of our new players, including Willy Hernangomez. Kuzminskas is intriguing as well, though, he has yet to make much of an impact.

Predictions: If our injuries are worse than league average (which is very likely to occur) 40-42; if we remain relatively healthy 50-32.

Outside of the Knicks and Spurs, I'm also interested in the Bulls this year. How will DWade fit in Chicago? Is there a worse 3 pt shooting PG/SG/SF starting combo in the league than Rondo/Wade/Bulter? Also, what about JR Smith? What are the chances he doesn't sign with the Cavs. I noticed they signed Toney Douglas the other day. Lucky for JR, LeBron is in his corner. The Cavs don't want to upset the King, do they? I find GS interesting for obvious reasons, but wonder what will happen in the future. Will Curry or Durant leave??


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 09, 2016, 06:47:30 AM
I'm really looking forward to this season! I'll have a lot to say as the season progresses. Are there any other Knicks fans out there?  I'm hoping Ron Baker makes the team. I was impressed by him during the summer league, though I wasn't sold he'd make it in the NBA. Solid 3 and D player, strong build. It's early in the preseason, but I like him as a 3rd string PG who can also play off the ball. He played really well against the Nets tonight alongside the starters. I'm also impressed by Chasson Randle. He's knocking down 3s and making things happen. Not sure if he can run the team adequately or if he's more of an undersized SG. Either way I'm very high on both of these players, both of which are currently on the outside looking in. The Knicks have 15 other players w/guaranteed contracts. Marshall Plumlee did not impress me during the summer league but he is starting to win me over. He plays very aggressive, throws his weight around, which I think is ideal in a player potentially playing alongside KP. I'd like to make room for Baker/Randle by cutting Justin Holiday and Lou Amundson. JP Tokoto hasn't shown me anything either. Though perhaps I haven't been paying close enough attention? Btw, Brandon Jennings looked very impressive tonight physically. Looked 100% healthy and very quick. He helped break the game open with his play. I'm genuinely excited about some of our new players, including Willy Hernangomez. Kuzminskas is intriguing as well, though, he has yet to make much of an impact.

Predictions: If our injuries are worse than league average (which is very likely to occur) 40-42; if we remain relatively healthy 50-32.

Gotta love that New York optimism.  ;D I agree that injuries are going to be the key, but I think 50 games is really optimistic even if they're healthy. That bench--Jennings notwithstanding--is just terrible. Almost historically bad, from my recollection. Granted, that assumes some of the rookies or journeymen don't step up and overperform expectations: maybe Hernangomez, Kuzminskas, Tokoto, O'Quinn, Baker/Randle, etc., will play out of their minds. (Hornacek has done a nice job in the past with young and journeymen types.) But it's a lot to ask. And what's worse, that's if there aren't many injuries ... which there will be. In his five full seasons with New York, only twice has Melo played in 70+ games. In those same past five years, Noah has only surpassed 70 once. Last year's 66 games were Derrick Rose's most by 15 games in the same time frame. (That's to say nothing of his diminished game, post-injury, or his rape charges.) Even Jennings has been injury prone. Sadly I just think it's a lot of stars to align... The Knicks will have a tough time. I think this summer's spending spree was kind of funny, because it's not a solution. It's a flashing neon band-aid. If I were Phil Jackson, I'd have gone the other way and tried to build around Zinger and some of the other younger guys.

Outside of the Knicks and Spurs, I'm also interested in the Bulls this year. How will DWade fit in Chicago? Is there a worse 3 pt shooting PG/SG/SF starting combo in the league than Rondo/Wade/Bulter?


You've got that right, they are a terrible shooting team. Last night, though, Mirotic at least finally warmed up. They'll really need him and McDermott in particular to hit shots because the guards can't make a shot. (Even second-year man Jerian Grant was one of the worst shooters in NBA history last year as a rookie.) They also have such a glut at PF, a bunch of talented/promising/good players but nothing that sets people apart. One wonders if Hoiberg is secure, and even if so, what the plan is.

Also, what about JR Smith? What are the chances he doesn't sign with the Cavs. I noticed they signed Toney Douglas the other day. Lucky for JR, LeBron is in his corner. The Cavs don't want to upset the King, do they?


I'm enjoying watching him flail in the wind because, MAN OH MAN do I ever hate JR Smith. He's unbelievably talented, no question there. He should have been an all-star half a dozen times by now based on his athleticism and skill set. But he's just one of those guys who seems intent on proving he can succeed doing whatever he wants, not what the team or coach wants. Does the world need turnaround fadeaway 3s?

I find GS interesting for obvious reasons, but wonder what will happen in the future. Will Curry or Durant leave??

It will be a fun season, but as it proceeds--especially if they "struggle" (which for this team probably means losing two games in a single month...)--we are going to hear about the potential departures of those two, that's for sure. I wouldn't be surprised to see either one go, actually. But Curry maybe more likely than Durant, as they've continued to pay teammates more than him. (Quirk of timing and his own injuries, but even so.) He could go home to Charlotte, make a huge fortune, play for MJ and a great coach Steve Clifford whose defensive schemes could allow him to keep being the Curry we've come to know while still succeeding as a team. Or theoretically he could choose New York and be a star on the biggest stage. Who knows? Probably not even him.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 09, 2016, 05:28:07 PM
Captain, I have circled the 11/30 and 12/2 home/away on my calendar with hopes of great victory. If the bench wins us two games all year, I'm hoping it's those! ;D

Anyone get League Pass? I'd love to watch more Western Conference games. Is it worth $200? At least I get the Knicks/Nets/Sixers living in NJ.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 09, 2016, 05:38:59 PM
We're now arch enemies, B.E.! May KAT get you for 30, 15, and 5!

I've had League Pass the past two years, but not this year. It always sounds like such a great idea early on, but I have tended to watch less and less as the season wears on. I love basketball, but there are only so many nights I can justify sitting around surfing games. But even now I am somewhat sympathetic to the idea, in that the major networks tend to focus on half a dozen to ten teams.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 09, 2016, 05:49:31 PM
Rondo will be player coach by the end of the year! ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 09, 2016, 05:56:11 PM
Rondo will be player coach by the end of the year! ;D

You really want a coach who hates 3/4 of his team 3/4 of the time? (If so, just hire Larry Brown.  ;D )


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 09, 2016, 06:08:21 PM
Larry will be coaching pickup ball soon!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 09, 2016, 07:38:28 PM
And within minutes, he'll be trying to trade half his roster.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 12, 2016, 05:23:50 PM
13 days til tipoff :spin


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 12, 2016, 05:46:05 PM
I'm so ready. We're two preseason games in, and I feel like it's more than enough.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 12, 2016, 06:11:10 PM
Yea definitely, had time the other night to watch the cavs and indians play in pip, but due to sitting starters :lol the tribe was more fun to watch


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 14, 2016, 05:19:11 AM
Yea definitely, had time the other night to watch the cavs and indians play in pip, but due to sitting starters :lol the tribe was more fun to watch

I really think the NBA should cut down on preseason games, which would give them the added benefit of more time to play their 82 regular season games and reduce the back-to-backs that players and coaches hate so much. Training camp and maybe 2 games, that would be fine by me. We don't need 6 or 8 or whatever. Every player I've ever heard talk about the preseason says that. We were playing Denver the other day and they were sitting so many starters and regulars: Mudiay, Nurkic, Harris, I think...I forget who all. But a lot of guys.

The Wolves have been playing everyone--or at least their top 10--every game so far. But I think that's because of the coaching change, plus the younger guys who don't really need the rest. Thibs is trying to see what he has and who plays well together. So far, he's going almost with a platoon system of two groups: starters Rubio, LaVine, Wiggins, Dieng, and Towns; and reserves Dunn, Rush, Muhammad, Bjelica, and Aldrich. Considering we still have Jordan Hill and Tyus Jones, I think it's got to be the deepest Wolves team ever. Fingers crossed we don't experience the kinds of injuries that have derailed so many of our seasons the past decade.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 14, 2016, 09:40:07 AM
The injury bug needs to stay away from the Wolves! (Thibs don't play your starters in the 4th period in February ;))


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 14, 2016, 09:59:32 AM
I truly think he's going to go a different direction this year, assuming guys are healthy, and play 10 guys regularly. Hopefully that will help fend off injuries.

Some of our biggest injury-bitten players are gone now, anyway: KG, Pekovic (still technically on the team but already announced as out for the year and most likely done overall, I'd guess), Kevin Martin, etc. Rubio is the one with the worst history of injuries, but hopefully a) he'll be healthy, and b) the Dunn-Jones-LaVine trio can fill in sufficiently even if he does go down.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 06:04:14 AM
I've seen a lot written the past few days about expansion being discussed among league officials, with Seattle almost certainly the primary target (although I'd guess they go two teams, going up to 32). Other names I've seen brought up are Vancouver (again), Mexico City, Las Vegas, St. Louis, Kansas City, Omaha, Louisville, and Pittsburgh.

What does everyone think? Are we ready for a couple more teams? Which cities do you think would be financially viable? (Omaha, for example, seems like quite a stretch...I checked yesterday, and at about 900k, it's only about 2/3 the size of OKC, which is already considered a very small market for the NBA.) Mexico City would be cool in that it could give Mexico an equivalent to Canada's Raptors ... but does Mexico love its basketball? There doesn't seem to be quite the same push for it as in Canada. Though Canada's hoops scene seems more a result of the Raptors than the cause of it.

Most of all, I would just enjoy watching new teams come into existence. I have loved expansion drafts and team-building since the first two new teams of the modern era came into being, Charlotte and Miami. (The next season the league added Orlando and Minnesota. Then Toronto and Vancouver. Most recently, Charlotte returned to the league.) Expansion drafts mean teams have to decide who to leave available and who to protect; the new teams have to weigh factors like available players' age, contracts, interest in playing for a new team, among other strategic factors. It's just the best.

I may or may not have gone through every roster (as of player status at the end of this coming season) and made hypothetical lists of who could be available for an expansion draft.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 06:41:44 AM
Those ABA cities of the 1970s are the best place to start for expansion. ( except my old Virginia Squires :'()


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 07:16:22 AM
My thought is it would have to be a city that can take an Eastern Conference team for competitive balance's sake. (You can't add two Western Conference teams and then, say, move one existing team east. It would make the western teams' schedules so much easier...)

The biggest markets in the US without teams in the eastern half of the country are Tampa, Fl (18th, at just under 3 million), St. Louis, MO (20th at 2.9 million), Baltimore, MD (21st at 2.8 million), Pittsbugh PA (26th at 2.4 million), Cincinnati (28th at 2.2 million), and Kansas City, MO/KS (30th, at 2.1 million). Of these, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and St. Louise have been mentioned (along with smaller markets like Louisville).

So market-wise, I'd say St. Louis, if it is interested, is the smart choice, with Pittsburgh another realistic option.

Then the question becomes, how do we handle divisions? We currently have three five-team divisions per conference. If we go to 32 teams, does that mean we go to two eight-team divisions per conference? Four four-team divisions? Unbalanced divisions, with one six-team and two five-team divisions per conference? These are things I think about.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 07:21:01 AM
I would expand "eastward" to either Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, or St. Louis. All have a long professional basketball history and are hotbeds for the game during the long winters in those areas.

I think a baseball situation of unbalance divisions might be in order.... 


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 07:26:16 AM
So either St. Louis, Pittsburgh, or Cincinnati joins the Central in the EC and Seattle joins the Northwest in the WC. (Expansion team in the Wolves' division, I like it. That's a couple of wins...)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 07:29:44 AM
The wolves are no longer the team to be beat up in the division! >:D

Good plan for one eastern team and one western team expansion.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 12:25:53 PM
This is along the lines of what these two teams (the Seattle Supersonics and St. Louis Spirit, of course) might conceivably look like. At least generally. This involves an expansion draft, an NBA draft, and free agency. Obviously, this means I was deciding who teams may or may not protect, which of those players the expansion teams may or may not select, who they may draft, and who they might try to sign (and succeed in signing) in free agency. But roughly speaking, this is the kind of rosters we could expect in Year One.

Seattle
PG
Jeremy Lin (Exp)
Markelle Fultz (R - NBA Draft)
Aaron Brooks (FA)

SG
Bojan Bogdanovic (FA)
Jeremy Lamb (Exp)
Wayne Ellington (Exp)
James Young (Exp)
CJ Wilcox (Exp)

SF
Evan Turner (Exp)
Omri Casspi (FA)

PF
Terence Jones (FA)
Nigel Hayes (R - NBA Draft)
Quincy Acy (Exp)

C
Tyson Chandler (Exp)
Al Jefferson (Exp)
Spencer Hawes (FA)

St. Louis
PG
Ish Smith (Exp)
Lonzo Ball (R - NBA Draft)
Malcolm Delaney (Exp)

SG
Tyreke Evans (FA)
Lou Williams (Exp)
Nik Stauskas (Exp)
Svit Mikhailiuk (R - NBA Draft)

SF
Shabazz Muhammad (Exp)
Tony Snell (Exp)
Brandon Rush (FA)

PF
Kenneth Faried (Exp)
Boris Diaw (Exp)
Anthony Tolliver (Exp)

C
Miles Plumlee (Exp)
Ian Mahinmi (Exp)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 12:31:20 PM
That is enough talent to at least keep fan interest for year one! Great stuff captain. 8)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 12:41:22 PM
Expansion teams are a weird thing. There's usually a combination of a few higher priced or locker-room-cancer vets who can help the team out on the short-term basis, scoring 16-20 ppg, grabbing 8-10 rpg, etc., but who you know you don't much want around in the long term. Then they'll grab a few younger guys who maybe haven't quite hit stride yet and might need a change of scenery. Then a few chemistry guys, truly mediocre players who might not deserve rotation roles but get them anyway because they're just good for the team. And of course, the real centerpieces, which are the rookies they get through the draft to build around for real.

In Year One, it usually makes for some strange, strange rosters.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 12:43:48 PM
I remember the expansion bobcats in 2004 having Okafor and not much else when I saw the bulls play them.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 12:52:07 PM
Expansion teams are prone to this as well... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Timberwolves_failed_relocation_to_New_Orleans


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 02:20:13 PM
Ugh, that whole era was a nightmare. Brand new team that was so poorly run in the early days, they managed to go from remarkable support early on--the first season, fans packed the Metrodome to watch this team--to abysmal results on and off the court. Luckily right around then, ownership brought in Kevin McHale and Flip Saunders to run the team. They traded away the cancers like JR Rider and Christian Laettner, they drafted Kevin Garnett and Steph Marbury, they traded for Tom Gugliotta, and things started looking up pretty quickly thereafter. We were in the playoffs in, I think, 1996-97. So only three years later.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 03:51:16 PM
Wasn't musselman fired for not tanking?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 04:07:13 PM
Yep. Second year, he finished 10-12 the last 22 games. Not that this is a GOOD record, but it was better than they had any business finishing with that "talent." Worst, it wasn't just about tanking, it was about a specific player: Gerald Glass, a fat-assed, undersized wing player we drafted 20th out of Ole Miss who was supposedly going to evolve into a Mark Aguirre style power-scoring guard. He'd been able to start a few games that winter and scored something like 20+ each game, but then the guy he replaced--Tony Campbell or Ty Corbin--got healthy again and he went back to the bench. He averaged about 7 ppg in about 12 mpg that (rookie) year. The GM wanted him to play a lot, the GM wanted Doug West (then a 2nd year guard out of Providence) to play a lot.

So Musselman got fired after the season.

The Wolves hired Jimmy Rodgers (then Bill Blair, then Sid Lowe), moved a lot of those key players, and were just terrible for five years. The next year, Glass scores 11 ppg in 24 mpg, shooting 44% without shooting 3s. They won 15. The next year, he was down to 5 ppg, being beaten out by Doug West and Chuck Person. Then he was shopped to Detroit, I think. Out of the league shortly thereafter.

Muss ended up coaching South Alabama to the NCAA tourney, if I'm not mistaken.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 04:13:54 PM
The Bulls had a checkered history until the Jordan era as well. Despite a few good years in the 1970s with Dick Motta as coach, they drafted players in the first round that didn't pan out. Guys like David Greenwood and Orlando Woodridge weren't superstars along with psychopaths like Quentin Dailey. Thankfully they had Reggie Theus to make the games watchable.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 04:51:28 PM
Looking back over drafts can be a humbling thing, either for one team over time, or just how each individual draft unfolds. The reality is most picks aren't the best possible pick in hindsight. And a surprisingly large number of (even very high) picks end up average or worse.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 04:54:36 PM
*cough* Robert Swift and the tons of big men projects the sonics took during their death spiral. A shame their savior of KD only got one season with them.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 05:00:28 PM
That's the thing, it was one after another! Swift, Johan Petro, Mohammad Saer Sene, to name a few. Never mind the contracts they doled out to anyone who even pretended to be tall: Jerome James, Jim McIlvaine...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 05:06:34 PM
Yeah it was an insane era in the NBA. Don't get me started on the Knicks during that era!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 15, 2016, 06:06:56 PM
Historically, everyone has always overreached and overpaid for bigs. Whether it means drafting bad players because they were big, or overpaying bigs in the hopes they might save you from Big Man X. In the late 80s, when the Hawks paid Jon Koncak the then-insane sum of like $3 million for 3 years, something funny like that, because they thought they'd need him to compete against the Bad Boys' bigs. Koncak!?

I would say it's changing now, but then again, look at the contracts that Ian Mahinmi, Timofey Mozgov, and Bismack Biyombo signed this offseason.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 15, 2016, 06:34:54 PM
True that, the game though is moving away from dedicated centers to the point that traditional ones can make a huge difference if used correctly.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 16, 2016, 06:50:13 AM
It's funny in a way, because the media in particular--not the beat writers, so much, but the long-form, analytics-driven writers and podcasters (think Zach Lowe as the leading voice, though their numbers have multiplied) are obsessed with the idea that NBA teams need mobile, rim-protecting centers who can also run to the rim in early offense and can at least roll to the hoop in a 1-5 pick and roll (and ideally pop on the same scenario to hit a jumper). So let's think about how many of those people exist on Planet Earth: a younger Tyson Chandler or Joakim Noah; young prospects like Karl-Anthony Towns, potentially Myles Turner as he improves...then who? There just aren't many guys who fit that model. It's a theoretical player to fit an idealized system, but the theoretical player is a rare combination of skills and traits.

Getting obsessed with platonic ideals in selecting talent is dangerous. It's what led to a bevy of terrible "next Michael Jordans" throughout the '90s, for example. Everyone decided they needed 6-5 to 6-8 super-athletic wings. The world got Harold Miner, LaBradford Smith, or even under-the-radar guys like Kenny Williams. They accomplished ... not a lot. There have been a million attempts to get a new Magic Johnson, that unicorn of a big point guard. (I'm obsessed with this idea, myself.) But who have they been? Guys who were better suited as shooting guards (Penny Hardaway), guys who weren't good (Anton Ponkrashov, Yaroslav Korolev, Chuck Eidson), guys who just had a lot of flaws (Michael Carter Williams, John Salmons, Shaun Livingston). We've even been here before, with centers, when everyone decided big, athletic, and strong "Shaq-like" centers were the rage, favoring physique over skills. The world was thus introduced to pre-fat Jerome James, among others.

So in this era of an idealized, rim-running and -protecting pick-and-roll center who can facilitate a spread offense, who are the players who actually exist in the real world?

Marc Gasol has arguably been the best center in basketball the past half decade. While a great defender based on position, intelligence, and size, he's not really a mobile player or rim protector. His game is best suited for the sort of halfcourt offense the Grizzlies, whether under Lionel Hollins, Dave Joeger, or presumably David Fizdale, incorporated.

Dwight Howard had the athleticism, the mobility, the rim protection. But he scoffed at playing even pick-and-roll basketball in both LA and HOU. He has always wanted to be a post center, despite not being a post center. In theory, his younger, healthier self was the perfect modern center. But his brain never was.

Brook Lopez is a classic, halfcourt post scorer who doesn't defend particularly well.

Al Horford is close to the ideal.

Hassan Whiteside is a stat-chasing athletic freak or a non-player whose previous franchises gave up on him because he doesn't know what he's doing. He lacks any basketball skills. He has lots of talent.

DeAndre Jordan handles the defensive side, but is embarrassing on offense. Just terrible.

On and on. Rudy Goubert, Nikola Vucevic, Tristan Thompson, Jahlil Okafor, Timofey Mozgov, Zaza Pachulia, Jonas Valanciunas, Marcin Gortat, Alex Len, Robin Lopez, Roy Hibbert ... these are NBA starting centers.

Smart organizations find ways to succeed with the talent that exists in the real world, and ideally on their own franchises. Not chasing idealized players to fit in idealized systems that nobody has the personnel to actually run: by that model, even if you run said system, you're maybe going to actualize like 70% of the system's potential (because the players are not optimal for it). Conversely, a well-designed system for real-life players can result in actual fulfillment. Look at how well Rick Carlisle has coached diverse teams to good records and nice playoff runs, for example.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 16, 2016, 06:59:27 AM
Looks like the Bulls and Bucks have pulled off a somewhat rare intradivision trade: point guard Michael Carter-Williams to Chicago for wing Tony Snell. Milwaukee, with Khris Middleton out the season, gets a wing who theoretically can shoot from the outside, while Chicago gets a little more dependability at backup point guard. Sorry, Denzel Valentine, Jerian Grant, and Spencer Dinwiddie.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 16, 2016, 01:28:10 PM
St.Louis with an NBA team ;D the NBA still paying the silnas still cant buy'em off


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 16, 2016, 01:31:07 PM
Give Seattle back their team WITH Their FULL History so OKC can make their own legacy

East give a team to any city that doesnt have a professional team from 'the big 4'


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 16, 2016, 01:33:24 PM
The funniest legacy of the ABA. Well, except Marvin Barnes. In his entirety.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 16, 2016, 01:35:21 PM
Give Seattle back their team WITH Their FULL History so OKC can make their own legacy

East give a team to any city that doesnt have a professional team from 'the big 4'
St. Louis is the biggest population metro area that is in the eastern half of the USA without an NBA team, that's why I threw it in there. Pittsburgh was next, I think. At the beginning of the discussion about expansion, I listed the actual populations.

But yeah, Seattle is obvious. Everyone in the league knows it: by far the biggest market without a team, plus it has a history and a game-crazy fan base. There is no doubt if they get a stadium and apply, they're in.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 16, 2016, 02:34:02 PM
Pittsburgh with an NBA  :o. I dont think there is enough diehard basketball fans to support a team after the steelers, penguins and pirates. Maybe not though that could be interesting..


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 16, 2016, 02:51:46 PM
Silnas brothers had the true art of the deal down! ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 16, 2016, 02:58:55 PM
Pittsburgh with an NBA  :o. I dont think there is enough diehard basketball fans to support a team after the steelers, penguins and pirates. Maybe not though that could be interesting..

I think you overemphasize the importance of diehard basketball fans in the process of getting an NBA team. Ability to profit is the situation, which is more about corporate dollars and marketing. Fan interest isn't UNimportant. But it's not first on the list. Average Joe is more likely to watch from the bar or from home than from a seat in the arena.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 16, 2016, 03:09:46 PM
Very true and with gary bettman having ties to the NBA i could see them sharing an arena with the penguins..




Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 18, 2016, 05:11:21 PM
GMs predicting GSW to win it all over cleveland(if both return to finals) by 69%

Minnesota was voted by 56.7% GMs to be most improved team with kris dunn being ROTY


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 18, 2016, 05:16:39 PM
GSW makes sense but I wouldn't bet on Dunn for ROY, myself. He's going to be splitting time for probably at least half the season--and maybe the whole thing--and isn't much of a shooter. Even if he plays well, it won't be the kind of stuff that usually wins ROY votes. Buddy Hield is competing with journeymen for that off-guard spot, especially while Tyreke Evans is hurt. They need perimeter offense (with Evans AND Holiday out), and he can certainly do that. So he's in the hunt. If Joel Embiid stays healthy and plays, say, 67 or more games, he might win it. Saric might be a dark horse, too, being a more experienced rookie with great international competition behind him. Jamal Murray, if he can win that off-guard spot, could be another sleeper.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on October 22, 2016, 11:58:28 AM
I don't think the league needs anymore teams, except for Seattle.

I loved those Supersonic teams of the 90's. My Pistons had had their run, and Chicago was the dominant team (and I hated them. HATED.) So I hopped on the Seattle bandwagon. Besides, for some reason I like the name Supersonics. I also like those Denver Nuggets 80's jerseys, so my opinions may not seem to make very much sense.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 22, 2016, 12:15:09 PM
These?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_QqzEOlFTM

Nugget's will wear them opening night when they retire Mutombo's number.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 22, 2016, 02:42:16 PM
im wearin a pair of Reebok kamikaze's on right now...
Alot of old NBA team logos from back when look better than current.
 Cavs were gonna wear their 90s kemp era blue,black & orange jerseys(my personal favorite) a few seasons back before 'the return' but it seems they like to forget 96-02 seasons


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 22, 2016, 05:38:39 PM
3 days til tipoff
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/664465/image_zpsl3v0bspg.gif)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 25, 2016, 01:14:39 PM
Interesting topic in this Marc Spears story published today: the decline of white American players in the NBA. Sensitive subject, maybe, but everybody on here is a grown-up and can be nice, right? Right. Good.

http://theundefeated.com/features/white-american-nba-players/


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 25, 2016, 02:48:28 PM
3 days til tipoff
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/664465/image_zpsl3v0bspg.gif)

Correction, zero days til tipoff. Knicks at Cavs starts in about 75 minutes. I'm curious to see whether the Knicks starters can play well together after basically never seeing the court at the same time all preseason. (I'm also curious to see whether the bench can pretend to be an NBA-quality batch of guys...) Then San Antonio v Golden State at 9 pm CT, that's a great one. I am extremely curious to see how San Antonio blends in the various new blood they've acquired. And Golden State signed somebody kinda good, what was his name again???  :lol


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 25, 2016, 03:48:13 PM
Got the pregames on  ;D. Flipping back & forth between cavs & indians...Its crazy downtown cleveland right now.....
we know D.Rose & joakim noah will be in sync like in chicago and they trained alot together over the summer but its the Knicks ...
Hey joakim FU


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 25, 2016, 04:01:08 PM
3 days til tipoff
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/664465/image_zpsl3v0bspg.gif)

Correction, zero days til tipoff. Knicks at Cavs starts in about 75 minutes. I'm curious to see whether the Knicks starters can play well together after basically never seeing the court at the same time all preseason. (I'm also curious to see whether the bench can pretend to be an NBA-quality batch of guys...) Then San Antonio v Golden State at 9 pm CT, that's a great one. I am extremely curious to see how San Antonio blends in the various new blood they've acquired. And Golden State signed somebody kinda good, what was his name again???  :lol

I haven't been this excited for basketball in years! And yes, as a matter of fact, the Knicks projected starting lineup did not play a second of preseason basketball together. Which makes me especially nervous because Melo is the epitome of a ball-stopper. Early on (this season), expect the starters to have trouble scoring, and defending (Melo again and KP at times). I was happy to see Hornacek take out KP early (6 minute mark) and then reinserting him to start the second quarter when Melo comes out. That was one of the few moves of Derek Fisher's last year that I liked. Our second unit had stronger chemistry and often outplayed our starters last year and that appears to be the case early this year. As for our bench, it is infinitely better than last year and absolutely a legit bench. You've heard it hear first and I look forward to being proven right! ;D Five unproven rookies, but I like them (well, i like 3 or 4 of them). I was happy with the final cuts. Ron Baker made the team. Randle vs N'dour was a toss up for me, Knicks liked N'dour's ability to play multiple positions. I'm really looking forward to seeing what type of rotations Hornacek has settled on. The preseason didn't really provide any hints. As the season wears on, I believe guys like Baker, Hernangomez, and Kuzminskas will all play meaningful minutes. Most everyone has written off the Knicks, I don't buy it... the East has been improving, though. In summary, it's gonna take time for the starters to play well together and the bench to get comfortable. What can I say? Either everything will click tonight and it will be close or we will lose by 20 :)

Really looking forward to Spurs vs GSW too. Keep an eye on Aldridge, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth to that rumor he was unhappy. Imagine that? 67 wins and unhappy because you're the 2nd option. Pathetic if true. Also, I'm curious about their new players as well. I'm a David Lee fan (of course, former-Knick) and I hope he can find success there. They really need him to play well, because they lost a lot of bigs. Also, what about Davis Bertans? 6'10 and can shoot 3s. That's an area where the Spurs have struggled a bit, so he could potentially make the Spurs a better team. I'd like to see him play. And that's to say nothing of Durant. Looking forward to seeing the new-look Warriors.

Jazz and Portland are interesting teams as well. I opted against league pass but I'll follow their box scores. 


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 25, 2016, 04:08:14 PM
I totally believe Hernangomez will be a legit rotation player. Jennings obviously can play. But I feel you might be over-crediting the rest of that bench! Kuzminskas seems pretty limited: solid but not special even in Europe. I would expect him to perform similarly to guys like Gigi Datome did. Lance Thomas, Sasha Vujacic, Justin Holiday, even Kyle O'Quinn, we know who and what they are. Plumlee is limited. Baker is a nice little player, we'll see if he can rise to be a rotation guy. (I liked his game in college.)

David Lee ... I think his time is passed (both literally physically, and just in terms of his style compared to where the league is going). He was a bad defender in his prime, and now is a nonexistent one. And while he can score out to 15 feet or so, he can't space the floor with 3s. That makes it tough to see much court time. But I love him, too. He was a favorite of mine for some time because of his creativity. Really saw the floor well.

Davis Bertans is a guy I've been waiting to see come over for quite some time. He's had some nice preseason moments, so we'll see if it translates.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 25, 2016, 04:32:23 PM
Cant wait for spurs GSW game either...ill miss alot cavs opener due to the Indians but hey
Lets do it, Tipoff in a couple minutes finally


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 26, 2016, 10:25:42 AM
Well, the Spurs looked phenomenal last night! Simmons really came to play. How about that exclamation point of a dunk to end the game? That Spurs performance was just what I needed after enduring that horrific Knicks performance.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 26, 2016, 10:36:53 AM
The Knicks truly were horrific. Several decent moments from individual guys, but it's hard to imagine how this all works together. Rose and Jennings are both ball-dominant point guards who are awful fits to the triangle, giving them not one really strong position, but one really weak one (in a strange way). They can play together and you get worse even though they're two of the five best players. Noah's got the head and heart, and he's a nice fit for the offense, but I'm not sure his body is able: he looked slow. Melo was clearly chafing and forced horrible shots at times when he had a wide-open teammate. Those starters are talented and can win some games, but the style of play is going to be an issue all year. Off the bench, Kuzminskas looked better than I thought, though I still think he'll be lucky to be a career rotation guy.

The Cavs showed some nice energy. I wonder about their PG and wing depth, but they may have some moves in them yet.

I was very surprised to see the Spurs win so easily. No disrespect to them, I just figured it would be at best a close game. Draymond set the tone early with a horrendous shot that missed, and it just went on from there. I worry--maybe baselessly, I don't know--that he has gotten a bit of a big head over the past year and is going to go from league's most underrated, versatile jack of all trades to a wannabe first option stat chasing cancer. He's hugely important to their success, but his importance is in being a guy who doesn't need shots. If he's going to be forcing jumpers, he hurts the team. Simple as that.

San Antonio, what a game from their starting forwards. And yes, Simmons, too. I looked at the +/- for guys this morning and while Parker and Anderson were pretty poor, Manu, Patty Mills, and Simmons really did some good out there off the bench.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 26, 2016, 05:21:02 PM
My brother said the same about the spurs not surprised GSW lost, the spurs are like the patriots they're always competitive....kawhi leonard damn still cant believe jimmer fredette and the morris twins were drafted ahead of him

2 seasons ago NY beat the cavs in the opener by 5, lost by 2 points against Chicago last year. Happy D.rose is cleared of the charges that woulda screwed their season (the distraction)



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 26, 2016, 05:33:24 PM
As for the white players disappearing in the NBA.. Black guys took basketball to another level that most white players just cant compete with, its glad the NBA isnt an all white sport.....most rednecks around here call it n-ball anyway ::) 
I Love This Game


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 26, 2016, 05:40:23 PM
Hell Yes! :'(


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 26, 2016, 06:07:07 PM
One of the best White players to play the game
http://youtu.be/fE5SDgXLb1g (http://youtu.be/fE5SDgXLb1g)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 26, 2016, 06:07:50 PM
Along with Pistol Pete!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 27, 2016, 03:56:40 PM
Wolves' opener was disappointing. A 20-3 run kicked off the game in Memphis (short Allen, Parsons, and Wright), but still they fell. KAT and Wiggins fell into jump-shooting mode, and the bench couldn't score efficiently at all.

I will say, Fizdale has installed a nice new offense, really opening things up there. Conley was a whole new man. Baldwin looked REALLY good, I thought, as a rookie combo guard. Fun watching ball again, even if the Wolves fell.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 27, 2016, 05:33:22 PM
Good ole vince carter

Any Andrew wiggins fans wants to purchase one of the 'discontinued' CAVS Wiggins jersey from 2014 i got one,
Brand new with $99 tag, preordered/purchased for $49.50 the day of the draft 2014, Wine/Burgundy colored, size XL for $40.. I have pics


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 29, 2016, 05:57:04 AM
Russell Westbrook and Anthony Davis, are you kidding me? Through two games...

Davis: 47.5 ppg, 16 rpg, 4 apg, 3 bpg, 52% FG, 84% FT
Westbrook: 41.5 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 9.5 apg, 1 spg

Granted their teams have been decimated by injuries or roster moves, necessitating that kind of effort. But even so, WOW. (But yes, it's two games. These things will smooth out. But they are both going to put up big numbers all season.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 29, 2016, 09:59:43 AM
Kings trolling the Suns after their recent win :lol.....you're the Kings
https://twitter.com/SacramentoKings/status/791499503756988417/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw (https://twitter.com/SacramentoKings/status/791499503756988417/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 29, 2016, 01:03:56 PM
I will withhold anti-Kings sh*t-talk until after tonight. If the Wolves win, I'll double down on it. If not, well, I suspect I may be quiet.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 29, 2016, 03:37:56 PM
Along with Pistol Pete!

Anyone ever notice how Pistol Pete's career averages are nearly identical to Kobe's...

            Pts     Rebs    Assists   Steals  Blocks   FG%    3pt%     FT%
Kobe    25.0     5.2      4.7        1.4     0.5     44.7    32.9      83.7
Pistol   24.2     4.2      5.4        1.4     0.3     44.1     66.7*    82.0

*10-15 in final season

 
I will withhold anti-Kings sh*t-talk until after tonight. If the Wolves win, I'll double down on it. If not, well, I suspect I may be quiet.

 :lol I'll spare you if KAT ends up hoisting the L. After all, I am a Knicks fan.

I'm not feeling very optimistic about tonight's game against Memphis. I noticed Zach Randolph put up 19pts 11rebs off the bench against the Wolves. Nice start for the potential sixth man. I'm a huge proponent of staggering rotations and always having one of your top 3 (if not top 2) players on the court at all times. Especially if your best players are predominately offensive players. There's only one ball after all. In regard to the Knicks, yes, I acknowledge/agree with all your points. In the end its going to come down to Hornacek (and injuries). As I've stated, I think our roster if utilized properly can be a good team, a playoff team. Admittedly, that's a huge "if" and game 1 was incredibly distressing as a result. Rose and Melo need to buy in. As far as I'm concerned, they are paid a hell of a lot of money to buy in. Meanwhile, I expect Rose to struggle fitting in for the foreseeable future. Can he and KP attempt a pick and roll tonight? That could be a dangerous combo. Also, Jennings should play much better at home tonight.

As an aside, I recently saw a Pop interview where he admitted having very little conviction when approaching Manu about coming off the bench. If Manu had objected he would have remained a starter. Pop hadn't told anyone this until the interview, which I believe occurred sometime after their last championship. Just thought that was an interesting tidbit...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 29, 2016, 03:43:52 PM
One major difference between Pistol and Kobe: teams' winning percentages.

Z. Randolph looked really nice against us. I'll say one thing, he seemed to like Fizdale's offense: he was chucking shots from a bit further out with glee.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 29, 2016, 03:48:11 PM
One major difference between Pistol and Kobe: teams' winning percentages.

No doubt. And games played.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on October 30, 2016, 02:53:28 AM
One major difference between Pistol and Kobe: teams' winning percentages.

Z. Randolph looked really nice against us. I'll say one thing, he seemed to like Fizdale's offense: he was chucking shots from a bit further out with glee.

Randolph has had a much better career than I thought he would have. He had some pretty good stats when he was in Portland, although that was during the infamous "Jail-Blazers" years, and I figured that he'd eventually do something so stupid off the court that he would get cut and never play in the league again. A lot of his issues seemed to be off the court (even before he came to MSU, there were whispers about his maturity). After getting traded a few times and ending up in Memphis, he seemed to get his act together.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 30, 2016, 06:01:13 AM
He has by all accounts been an amazing citizen in Memphis, too. I think there's a lesson in there: we expect some kind of ideal from our pro athletes, but in reality these are spoiled kids (often from awful circumstances) who then come into tremendous wealth at a young age. It's actually surprising more of them don't go off the rails. But a lot of them grow up, and Randolph seems to be one of those.

The Wolves lost in Sacramento last night, blowing another large lead. Glad I didn't stay up to watch it. Very disappointing way to start the season, 0-2.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 30, 2016, 08:16:16 AM
Cavs 3-0
didnt realize zac had immaturity issues for some reason i thought you meant demarcus cousins :lol

Theres nothing funnier to me than watching a person make millions, piss it away then come out with the sob story so us broke fans can 'relate' to pissing away in a year more money than we'll ever see in our lifetimes ::).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 30, 2016, 08:38:40 AM
Oh yeah, Randolph was a poster boy for what was purportedly wrong with the league back in the early to mid-00s, though a lot of that was because he was on, as Verlander said, the infamous "Jailblazers" along with Rasheed Wallace, Damon Stoudamire, Bonzi Wells, Qyntel Woods, Darius Miles, Ruben Patterson. My favorite moment was somewhat magical, truly serendipitous, when they drafted Travis Outlaw. While he was by all accounts actually a really good kid, the name alone meant it simply had to be.

The reality from what I've gathered, though, is that Randolph was more just a follower as a young guy. Not especially bad, just kind of weak-willed.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 31, 2016, 05:36:01 PM
Wasnt steve smith there too ???
See your timberwolves are 0-2 but they're 5th in the league for field goal %..i cant wait for the world series to end ive barely watched any basketball just following stats..chicago and atlanta are also undefeated..in the west OKC & spurs are undefeated, man you werent kidding westbrooks playing like hes got something to prove :o.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on November 01, 2016, 04:31:03 PM
Since the cavs are playing houston... One of my fav. Cavs memorabilia
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/664465/image_zpsgvjoy8lx.jpeg)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 01, 2016, 04:37:23 PM
Damn, that reminds me of this...

starts at 2:09 (only about 30 seconds long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raEgYeYjXo4


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on November 02, 2016, 04:23:38 PM
The old raptors logo was cool, I believe the raptors wore them for their 'hardwood classics' games in 12'/13' season


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on November 09, 2016, 04:25:41 PM
Cavs first loss last night 6-1 ATL looked good shroeder & bazemore played well and dwight howard showing signs again


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on November 11, 2016, 03:12:42 PM
Cavs at wizards and john walls playing should be a good game


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 11, 2016, 03:15:02 PM
Something of an unofficial NCAA kickoff tonight, with ESPN hosting a great doubleheader: Michigan State v Arizona and Indiana v Kansas. These are all Top 12 teams. We've got great freshmen on all of these teams, as well as some really good returning players. It's a shame that the talented wing Terrence Ferguson decided to play professionally in Australia rather than attend Arizona, as he may have been among the top wings--to say nothing of top freshmen--in the country. But this is a great couple of games.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 11, 2016, 03:16:29 PM
Cavs at wizards and john walls playing should be a good game

Wizards just can't seem to get it together. Two years ago they seemed to be on the rise, but they just haven't held it together. Lots of injuries, suspect coaching, questionable roster management... I feel bad for the people of WDC. (Said the guy in Minneapolis...)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on November 11, 2016, 07:15:00 PM
John wall played well, first half was kinda boring second half was good


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on November 12, 2016, 03:37:29 AM
Something of an unofficial NCAA kickoff tonight, with ESPN hosting a great doubleheader: Michigan State v Arizona and Indiana v Kansas. These are all Top 12 teams. We've got great freshmen on all of these teams, as well as some really good returning players. It's a shame that the talented wing Terrence Ferguson decided to play professionally in Australia rather than attend Arizona, as he may have been among the top wings--to say nothing of top freshmen--in the country. But this is a great couple of games.

MSU forgot to play defense on the last play of the game. Having said that, by the time the middle to the end of the Big 10 season winds down, these guys are gonna be GOOD. Miles Bridges is already a stud. The one thing that may bite them is that they've got no big man; both bigs they were counting on are hurt, and who knows when they'll be back.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 12, 2016, 03:52:12 AM
Miles Bridges, wow. Enjoy him this year; next year he'll be in the NBA.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on November 14, 2016, 06:12:56 PM
How are the pelicans 1-9?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 15, 2016, 04:08:01 AM
By having an NBA superstar surrounded by fringe guys. Jrue Holiday's absence and tyreke evans' injury don't help. When your starting backcourt is Tim Frazier and E'Twaun Moore...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 15, 2016, 03:57:42 PM
Couple of great NCAA games tonight (Yes, I'm still using this thread for college. Such is life.), with Kentucky v Michigan State and Duke v Kansas. Should be phenomenal: there are almost certainly 20-25 future NBA players on these rosters. And without question there are more than that who will be future professionals at some level or in some league.

In the NBA, the Wolves host the Hornets. (I only just got used to saying Bobcats, and they're Hornets. Damn name changes.) Kemba Walker is playing at an all-star level, so it will be interesting to see whether and how we can keep him in check. I'll also be curious to see whether Wiggins keeps his hot streak going, as he had 47 the other night against LAL. Hopefully some of the guys who sat that game--Zach LaVine, Baz Muhammad, Brandon Rush--are playing. We're not winning without them. (Especially LaVine, who has really taken another leap.) I'm also hopeful that KAT exploits the relative weakness in the middle for Charlotte. Zeller, Hawes, etc., should get wrecked.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on November 15, 2016, 04:36:53 PM
1-9 with davis averaging 30 pts. Damn
Charlotte played well on sunday against the cavs i think they will make playoffs 7/8 seed
Raptors playing downtown at the Q. Demar derozan im glad no L.A. team signed him and sold out.. Its about time for  the eastern conference


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on November 16, 2016, 02:55:49 PM
demar derozan, kyle lowry and terrence ross played great, torontos gonna be deadly


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 16, 2016, 03:09:32 PM
DeRozan is truly playing out of his mind this season so far. He's always been talented, but also tended to settle for midrange and contested 2s. He's getting to the rim (almost 10 FT attempts per game), and while he still isn't really hitting 3s (26%), he is hitting a fabulous 53% on 2s, which for a guard is amazing.

The Wolves were terribly disappointing last night against Charlotte. They don't play tonight, but ESPN has a pair of games. I'll try to catch some of that.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 16, 2016, 04:44:19 PM
About 10 games in, has anything surprised you?

For me, it's the Hornets and the Lakers. Did anyone notice late last week when the Hornets were sitting atop the Eastern Conference at 6-1 (trailing only the Clippers in the West). Now that I've looked a little closer I can see they've had a favorable schedule, but still an impressive start.  So far they've beaten MIL, MIA, PHI, BKN, IND, UTAH, MIN and lost to BOS, TOR, CLE. Those TOR and CLE losses were close games and I think their next game against the 8-2 Hawks (who happen to lead the league in turnovers) will be a nice test. I haven't watched the Hornets play yet or even looked up their individual player stats, but I've been sold on Kemba since watching him in the playoffs. Based on their team stats it appears the Hornets have continuity on offense, play solid D, and take care of the ball. I notice their 5th in assists and 7th in 3s made (10.5 per game), 2nd in defense rating and defense rebounding, 5th in opps points in the paint, and 1st in turnovers. It will be interesting to see if they can continue this success.

The Lakers meanwhile beat GS by 20! Didn't see that coming, especially considering GS had already lost big to the Spurs. I thought that would have woken them up. Still GS is fine, of course. The Lakers are 3rd in FG% and ppg, 47.3% and 110. Luke Walton appears to be continuing where he left off as a head coach in the NBA. The Lakers are 7-5 and a playoff team at the moment. Does it last?

Btw captain, I'm sorry to bring up the Hornets so soon, but I've been meaning to. We both appear to be suffering a bit. When glancing at the Hornets team stats I happened to notice which two teams were the worst in defensive rating...care to guess?

Of course, stats are rather meaningless after 10 games, but what the hell?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 16, 2016, 05:21:18 PM

Btw captain, I'm sorry to bring up the Hornets so soon, but I've been meaning to. We both appear to be suffering a bit. When glancing at the Hornets team stats I happened to notice which two teams were the worst in defensive rating...care to guess?

Of course, stats are rather meaningless after 10 games, but what the hell?

Don't worry, I'm not a freak about it. Besides, I've been watching us get 40-60 losses a year for the past decade or so, so...

I love Charlotte in a lot of ways. Kemba Walker is a prime example of a guy who isn't good enough, except yes he is. He is a winner. He did it at UConn and he's doing it again. Not big, not REALLY quick, not historically a great shooter, but he gets it done. I love him, with the right coaches and system. And on that topic, Steve Clifford is fabulous as a coach. He made a lot of mediocre defenders into a good defensive team. I like MKG A LOT. Cody Zeller is good. Nic Batum (who signed a RFA deal with the Wolves in the Kahn era) is really good. Very nice team.

Surprises ... how about James Harden being a 30-and-12 guy? He's always been a good passer, but right now he is arguably the best point guard in the league. Not bad for a shooting guard. Thanks, D'Antoni!

Pivoting from Houston, how about (ex-Houston) Dwight Howard in Atlanta playing well?

Watching Memphis play a whole new style has been interesting.

Honestly I am shocked at how well the Clips are playing. I thought this season might be a trainwreck for them, that version of their team's unraveling. But they are truly fabulous right now.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 16, 2016, 06:00:04 PM
Harden is scary! I've watched quite a bit of the Rockets this year and it's not just the numbers...it's easy for him. How many games does a team need to win in order for a guy to win MVP? I'd say your team must be a top 4 seed, atleast. LBJ is probably the favorite this year. If a Warrior wins it, it's going to be Durant. Beyond those two guys there are a few who can (and are) putting up MVP numbers, but will they win enough?

I agree about Clifford, Dwight, and the Clippers (though I'm still hoping they will unravel ;D). The Clips point differential reminds me of the Spurs last year!

Not to sucker you into discussing the Knicks further, but I have to say on an individual level, KP is blowing my mind! 23 pts in the first half against DET tonight. Last year, he overachieved, right? I thought his percentages would bump up a bit this year, but otherwise I wasn't expecting a significant leap. Since preseason his fluidity has impressed me. Now, he's confident. Lately he's taken to facing up guys on the perimeter, crossing them over, and shooting the J. What's up with that? He made a lot of mistakes last year, bumbled around quite a bit...he's looking like a bonafide all-star right now. Astonishing.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 16, 2016, 06:09:57 PM
Porzingis is amazing. I want to gloat since I did truly praise him pre-draft ... but I can't, since I'm a sucker for Euros and have praised a lot of guys who produced little or nothing. But he is playing some great basketball. His rebounding is really going to have to improve, but I'm sure it will. That he is so fluid, so smooth, and has that beautiful shot, all at his height? Insane. I'd love to see them move Melo and move Noah, maybe acquire someone like a Nerlens Noel to be a defense-minded, garbage-man big, and let him and Rose play pick and roll basketball.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on November 17, 2016, 05:29:19 PM
Porzingis looks just like the crew leader at the paving place i work for in the summer
remember though knicks fans werent happy when he was drafted but the same fans think bernard king is better than lebron :lol


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Emily on November 18, 2016, 04:57:07 PM
What are posters in South Station, Boston, talking about with a photo of a basketball player and "pick me last again"?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 18, 2016, 05:01:36 PM
What are posters in South Station, Boston, talking about with a photo of a basketball player and "pick me last again"?

Boston's starting point guard is a very small (5-9 or so, I think) player named Isaiah Thomas, who was picked (by Sacramento) 60th (last) in the NBA draft the year he came out of college. However, since then he not only made the Sacramento Kings--a rare achievement for the last pick in the draft, who usually ends up overseas, bouncing around, etc.--but being productive. He was then signed by Phoenix, then traded to Boston, where he not only showed he was a legitimate NBA player, but actually a star. He's averaging a very impressive 20+ points per game.

So the marketing is that it's an underdog success story, basically.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Emily on November 18, 2016, 05:03:44 PM
Got it. Thank you!
Does another famous athlete have a very similar name? If not, I've heard of him. Yay!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 18, 2016, 05:05:11 PM
Got it. Thank you!
Does another famous athlete have a very similar name? If not, I've heard of him. Yay!

Sadly, yes. Isiah Thomas (not spelling difference) was a very, very famous basketball player (also a point guard, actually) mostly in the 1980s. He played for the Detroit Pistons, and retired probably in the early to mid 90s. This one entered the pro ranks maybe about 5 years ago. So there was quite a space between them.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Emily on November 18, 2016, 05:08:25 PM
Sad. That was when I still lived with my dad who was a big "b-ball" fan. So I can't pretend to myself I have a clue. It was embarrassing the morning I asked someone at work why everyone was babbling about the Cubs and they told me they'd won the World Series! I hadn't even realized the World Series had begin! Dadless me has no idea what's going on!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 18, 2016, 05:25:02 PM
To be fair, I'm clueless about most sports, too. But basketball? I'm right in there! (My main World Series info was girlfriend discussing her Chicago-area family's inconveniences by the games.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 18, 2016, 05:30:29 PM
I just turned on ESPN and saw the Celtics v Warriors is on, and they showed the South Station ad campaign. Thanks for the head's up, I felt so informed...  ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Emily on November 18, 2016, 07:27:49 PM
I just turned on ESPN and saw the Celtics v Warriors is on, and they showed the South Station ad campaign. Thanks for the head's up, I felt so informed...  ;D
So pleased that I could play that role in someone's life.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on November 19, 2016, 04:00:19 AM
Got it. Thank you!
Does another famous athlete have a very similar name? If not, I've heard of him. Yay!

Sadly, yes. Isiah Thomas (not spelling difference) was a very, very famous basketball player (also a point guard, actually) mostly in the 1980s. He played for the Detroit Pistons, and retired probably in the early to mid 90s. This one entered the pro ranks maybe about 5 years ago. So there was quite a space between them.

And the Detroit Pistons Thomas is one of the best to ever play the game!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 23, 2016, 06:41:42 AM
How are the pelicans 1-9?

Pelicans are 3-0 since Jrue Holiday's return. Including a beat down of the Hawks (who appear to be coming back down to earth after losing to the Knicks as well).

Speaking of the Knicks :lol I am encouraged by what I'm seeing. Knicks are 7-7 and quietly have a 5 game home winning streak. If they are to be a 40-50 win team they must take advantage of stretches like the one before them...CHA, @CHA, OKC, @MIN, MIN, SAC, @MIA. These games are just as important as games in April. Is 5-2 too much to ask? Probably.

Meanwhile, the LAL beat OKC last night. The Lakers have been up and down, but overall, they keep surprising me.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 23, 2016, 07:04:32 AM
Jrue Holiday is such a good player ... when he plays. It's been that way for years now, fantastic on the court, but he's so often off of it. At least this time it wasn't an injury, which is promising. It really means a lot to the Pels that he's playing again.

As for the Knicks being a 50-win team? Ooof, I think you're an optimist. I think 40 is closer to the ceiling. 40, 42, right around there. The fact is there will be stretches without Noah. Probably stretches without Rose. Without Melo, without Jennings. These guys always miss games; there's no reason to think they won't this season. What is good to see is how well Hernangomez and Kuzminskas are coming along, because they really needed (and still do need) that depth. It'd be nice to see more backcourt depth, but maybe that will come. Justin Holiday as a backup wing is underwhelming, especially when your starter is Courtney Lee (hardly an all-star). Ron Baker, Sasha Vujacic...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 23, 2016, 07:30:23 AM
I just watched the LAL-OKC highlights... if you haven't seen the game-winner, check it out. What was he thinking? :lol

And yes, I am an optimist. No doubt. We are really only about 5-6 games apart, though. I'm only worried if KP is out. We can win without Noah (we are right now), we can win without Rose (for short stretches; Jennings has 3 10+ assists games already and great chemistry with KP), Melo almost cost us the game last night...of course if we lose multiple guys at once, sure, we are a 30-35 win team. Justin Holiday has played surprisingly well, will he keep it up? Perhaps not. Kuz was huge last night. Played the whole 4th of a tight game and hit a huge 3 rescuing the Knicks. Im glad to hear the crowd finally booing Melo whenever he stops the ball and isos for 10 seconds. I think he'll get the memo soon.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 23, 2016, 07:47:50 AM
"What was he thinking?" That's a question you can ask about Nick Young at virtually any given moment. And you'll never come up with the correct answer. (It's insane to think back of the Wizards team that had him, Gilbert Arenas, JaVale McGee, Jarvaris Crittenden ... talk about a lot of lunatics on one roster.)

The winning without Rose might be a stretch. While Jennings has played pretty well, remember that you've then got to replace his (huge) role as the only big-minutes guard off the bench. So what, is Ron Baker ready for that? Obviously that dropoff would be huge. And Holiday, he's awfully old to be considered an up-and-comer. I think he's performing at the level he is because he's a mature pro, but he's topped out. And let's be serious, he's not playing all that well for a top wing off the bench. Roughly 6 ppg on 43% shooting (though a nice 44$ 3pt), nothing else to speak of. A PER of about 11. I think--and I say this as a longtime fan of the middling-or-worse Wolves--that you may be mistaking basic competence with real productivity when it comes to Holiday. I did the same thing for years, whether with Robbie Hummel, Dante Cunningham, or any number of other bottom-of-roster guys forced into rotation roles. It's amazing what a person can talk himself into. (Hell, I championed Darko Milicic.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 23, 2016, 09:23:24 AM
"What was he thinking?" That's a question you can ask about Nick Young at virtually any given moment. And you'll never come up with the correct answer. (It's insane to think back of the Wizards team that had him, Gilbert Arenas, JaVale McGee, Jarvaris Crittenden ... talk about a lot of lunatics on one roster.)

 :lol Seriously!

The winning without Rose might be a stretch. While Jennings has played pretty well, remember that you've then got to replace his (huge) role as the only big-minutes guard off the bench. So what, is Ron Baker ready for that? Obviously that dropoff would be huge. And Holiday, he's awfully old to be considered an up-and-comer. I think he's performing at the level he is because he's a mature pro, but he's topped out. And let's be serious, he's not playing all that well for a top wing off the bench. Roughly 6 ppg on 43% shooting (though a nice 44$ 3pt), nothing else to speak of. A PER of about 11. I think--and I say this as a longtime fan of the middling-or-worse Wolves--that you may be mistaking basic competence with real productivity when it comes to Holiday. I did the same thing for years, whether with Robbie Hummel, Dante Cunningham, or any number of other bottom-of-roster guys forced into rotation roles. It's amazing what a person can talk himself into. (Hell, I championed Darko Milicic.)

You are absolutely right to question Baker and if Rose misses extended time the Knicks don't have the depth to win. Agreed. As for Justin Holiday, to your point, I'm surprised he is this competent. I was in favor of cutting him during the preseason. As you pointed out, it's not like he's playing out-of-his-mind, so I'm hopeful he can continue to do what he's doing.

I'm looking forward to the home and home with the Wolves.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 23, 2016, 09:33:48 AM
I'm hoping the Wolves are into a rhythm by then. So far, they're dominant for roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of every game, but they've been--with one or two exceptions--absolutely horrible the other part of each game. They have blown something like five or six 12+ point, second-half leads already. They're phenomenal in the first quarter, even the first half, but usually awful in the third quarter. The talent is absolutely there, but they just have to work through situations and learn from them. It's tough once you've identified players or teams as up-and-coming, because knowing they're going to improve isn't the same as actually improving. You just have to go through it...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 23, 2016, 09:48:11 AM
Absolutely. Everyone recognizes the bright future of the Wolves, but it doesn't happen overnight. We've both got new coaches, as well. I'm a little worried now, because at times the Knicks struggle early and late in games. The Wolves, especially at home, may jump out to a large lead. Late in games for us, predictably, it's a power struggle between doing what got you there (team ball) and the stars "earning" their paychecks (ISO).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 23, 2016, 09:58:20 AM
Especially with Melo, that cognitive dissonance has got to be tough. Old dog, new tricks. The guy has been supremely successful as a go-to, iso-focused scorer. Even when he's at his best (in international competition), his role is to shoot when the ball gets to him--even if he's not the #1 option. He's just not built for a triangle or motion style of offense. He could work really well in a pick-and-roll with Rose, but that leaves Porzingis as the weak side spot-up shooter. Obviously he's overqualified for that role!

I do like Hornacek as a coach, however. Frankly, I suspect Jackson would be better off leaving the job, considering his insistence on maintaining (even parts of) the triangle and his tendency to cozy up to media and drop bombs every now and again. He's just seeming like a meddler as a front-office guy. Doesn't he have an opt-out after this season? I think it would be best for everyone if he took it, though I know he recently said he didn't want to opt out (whenever it is). And as painful as it would be, I'd also let Rose walk or sign him and do a sign-and-trade. And I'd probably try to deal Melo. I'd rebuilt around Zinger. I know after about three rebuilds in the past five years, Knicks fans don't want to hear that, but it makes sense.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 23, 2016, 10:24:07 AM
Honestly, I hear you!

I'm not sure what to make of Jackson in his current role and I suspect you are right on all accounts... but he is responsible for drafting KP. Yes, I believe the opt out is after this season, I just don't think he will opt out based on recent comments. As for Rose, that's why I liked the trade! He was an upgrade for this season. After that? No strings. And I do believe we can go over the cap to sign him, if desired. Melo is incredibly frustrating, though I will admit, deadly as a spot up shooter when KP is the first option. As for the Triangle, its been disappearing, at a surprising rate. I'm honestly surprised Jackson has allowed it to happen. I'm not an expert on the Triangle or any offensive for that matter (I just understand the fundamentals as a former player), but if they are running the triangle they are doing a hell of a job disguising it!  ;D For instance, it's rare to see a PG cut to the corner when watching a Knicks game. Also, great point on Rose-Melo pick and roll. They actually made the greatest effort of the season last night to go to that. I believe 3 times in a row, in fact.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 23, 2016, 10:37:56 AM
Yeah, they have begun abandoning the triangle each of the seasons Jackson has been in control there now. They always start with it, then move away. Even when Rambis got the job to reintroduce it, they went away sometimes. It's just not a really viable offense anymore unless you have really good players. That's multiple: playerS. Not just multiple stars, but good role players. Seriously, when you think of the history of the NBA, no team has done well in the triangle without two superstars and multiple good role players. The offense itself, like most every offense, is only as good as its players ... and sometimes, if it's limiting, is worse than its players. (Examples of it not working: the Mavericks under Jim Cleamons, I think it was. Atrocious. Wolves when Rambis tried to use it. Nuggets didn't emphasize it but tried to use it a little under Brian Shaw.) Literally, the only times it has worked were with Jordan-Pippen plus either Grant/Armstrong/Paxson or Kukoc/Rodman/Harper; or Kobe/Shaq with an assortment of really good role players.

If Melo's ego could stand him being made second option, man, they could be deadly with pick and roll. They'd also need another really good shooter to help space, but that's not so hard to find. Even a fringe guy like Brady Heslip or someone can be had out of the D-League to do that.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 23, 2016, 11:26:53 AM
Having understood the fundamentals of basketball but not studying the game close enough to assign specific actions/plays to specific systems, there's something I've been wondering lately...A common way to get into an offense when playing up tempo seems to be the PG dribbling to the wing, swinging the ball to the trailing big just above the 3pt line, who then swings it to the other side. I remember the Spurs doing this all the time with Duncan and I'd always be worried he would travel before swinging it. It's obviously natural to get into an offense this way because guards will out-run bigs down the floor. My question is, does this have a name or does it originate from a specific system? Was it made popular in the NBA by a specific team or has it always been around since the inception of basketball? The reason I've been thinking about it is it fits KP like a glove. The Knicks wanted some easy offense, well they've found it. Now if only they could get stops consistently. If the opposing big doesn't find KP in transition, KP just rises without hesitation and hits the 3. If the defender crowds him, he blows right by him.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 23, 2016, 11:54:27 AM
That's a great question and I really don't know the answer. I certainly don't off the top of my head recall the bigs in particular being that swing guy back when I was growing up and watching basketball ('80s onward). But it's possible I just don't recall. I think of it as sort of a secondary break: if the guard(s) and/or wing(s) who get down court fastest don't have an obvious scoring opportunity toward the rim, they fade and reverse through the trailing big. But I don't know whether it came from a specific guy, team, offense, etc. I might ask around on that.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on November 24, 2016, 03:27:51 AM
I'm still disgusted about how well the Clippers are playing.

Kevin Love had 34 points last night-in the 1st quarter. That's not too shabby.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 24, 2016, 05:02:29 AM
The Wolves lost to New Orleans. Badly. I know Jrue Holiday is back, but even so.

Andrew Wiggins is a huge part of the problem. After an amazing start to the season--nearly 26 ppg, shooting great percentages including an unsustainable 54% from 3--he has had three poor games in a row. In those three games since Philly (all losses), Wiggins has shot 9-48 FG, 0-11 3pt. He has averaged about 11 ppg. He has pulled down fewer than 3 rpg. He has doled out 0.7 apg. And he has turned it over 3x/game, which is pretty poor for a non-guard. He is still getting to the FT line and doing OK there, going 16-20.

This has to get better or we'll keep losing.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 24, 2016, 05:54:56 AM
GSW had 47 assists on 53 FG made last night.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 24, 2016, 07:56:12 AM
I'm still disgusted about how well the Clippers are playing.  

I think the Clippers will come back down, but I don't see them falling below the 3rd seed. Not with KD in GS.

Kevin Love had 34 points last night-in the 1st quarter. That's not too shabby.

Wow! Impressive. I can't help but root for Kevin Love.

The Wolves lost to New Orleans. Badly. I know Jrue Holiday is back, but even so.

Andrew Wiggins is a huge part of the problem. After an amazing start to the season--nearly 26 ppg, shooting great percentages including an unsustainable 54% from 3--he has had three poor games in a row. In those three games since Philly (all losses), Wiggins has shot 9-48 FG, 0-11 3pt. He has averaged about 11 ppg. He has pulled down fewer than 3 rpg. He has doled out 0.7 apg. And he has turned it over 3x/game, which is pretty poor for a non-guard. He is still getting to the FT line and doing OK there, going 16-20.

This has to get better or we'll keep losing.

Just prior to the Wolves game last night I turned on NBATV or ESPN and they were talking about Wiggins. I've hardly ever watched him play, but I was very impressed by the 26ppg but underwhelmed to see the 4 rpg right next to it. To focus on that, what is a reasonable expectation of him? He's 6-8, but only 199 lbs. Generally speaking, I'd like 6 rpg minimum from my SF, 8 rpg if he's elite. All things being equal (minutes) players usually put up their best rebounding numbers early in their career when they are most athletic. Of course, there are many factors affecting how many rebounds a guy gets at SF, but 4 rpg or fewer than 3 rpg, that can't be acceptable, no? To comment on the other stats you posted, 0.7 assists for a guy capable of scoring over 20 ppg is not encouraging, at all. Honestly, I'd think that's hard to do. I don't want it to sound like I'm coming down too hard on him, like I said, I've hardly watched him play. Just curious what type of rebounding numbers you think he should be getting over the course of the season, and his career.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 24, 2016, 06:13:55 PM
I agree with you 100%. I think anything below 5 rpg for a SF is very, very questionable. The main exception would be if he's more or less a 3-point shooter (exclusively). Like say it's Brad Lohaus or someone, Steve Novak, these types of players. (I realize these guys were mostly PFs, but the point is the same, as I mean guys whose job on offense is literally just to stay outside the 3-pt line.). In a lot of ways, Wiggins seems like a Tracy McGrady type. Well, from mostly SG, McGrady averaged almost 6 rpg for his career (and more than 7 rpg two different seasons). Paul Pierce was shorter than Wiggins and averaged about 6 rpg for his career, and more than 7 rpg about half a dozen times. Scottie Pippen, 6.4. Clyde Drexler, 6.1. Adrian Dantley (6-5) averaged 5.7.

If you're not a shooting specialist, and you're 6-8, and you're absurdly athletic, you need to be getting 5+ rpg, and ideally more like 8. Even if you're thin.

You could say that Towns and Dieng grab up almost 20 rpg, so that makes it harder for the smaller guys, but Rubio seems to find a way to get 4 rpg from the PG spot...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on November 25, 2016, 07:26:10 AM
I agree with you 100%. I think anything below 5 rpg for a SF is very, very questionable. The main exception would be if he's more or less a 3-point shooter (exclusively). Like say it's Brad Lohaus or someone, Steve Novak, these types of players. (I realize these guys were mostly PFs, but the point is the same, as I mean guys whose job on offense is literally just to stay outside the 3-pt line.). In a lot of ways, Wiggins seems like a Tracy McGrady type. Well, from mostly SG, McGrady averaged almost 6 rpg for his career (and more than 7 rpg two different seasons). Paul Pierce was shorter than Wiggins and averaged about 6 rpg for his career, and more than 7 rpg about half a dozen times. Scottie Pippen, 6.4. Clyde Drexler, 6.1. Adrian Dantley (6-5) averaged 5.7.

If you're not a shooting specialist, and you're 6-8, and you're absurdly athletic, you need to be getting 5+ rpg, and ideally more like 8. Even if you're thin.

You could say that Towns and Dieng grab up almost 20 rpg, so that makes it harder for the smaller guys, but Rubio seems to find a way to get 4 rpg from the PG spot...

Holy sh*t, Brad Lohaus? That's going back!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 25, 2016, 07:29:26 AM
I'm getting old.  :-\


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 25, 2016, 07:33:23 AM
There are reports of rumors ("reports of rumors," this is what sports journalism is...) that Thibs is getting impatient and may trade one of the promising young Wolves for a veteran who can help win games now.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/11/24/rumor-tom-thibodeau-expected-to-trade-young-timberwolves-player-for-established-veteran/

While I'd never say never without knowing specifics--and again, this is all based on speculation at best--I'd be really, really hesitant to move KAT, Wiggins, or LaVine for an older player. I mean, some of the guys mentioned? Taj Gibson? Luol Deng? Fine players, both, but Deng is well into his downside, no doubt a great locker room guy and moderately productive player, but for a future all-star? And Gibson, he's a productive, solid role player. Again, this for a future all-star?

I really, really want this Wolves team to make the playoffs this year. But if it starts looking like they won't, life goes on. Take a few losses for the bigger picture. Move some peripheral guys in an attempt to help things out, maybe Shabazz Muhammad, Gorgui Dieng (if he's trade-eligible...his extension might have messed that up for now), Tyus Jones, Ricky Rubio, even. But you don't start dealing away some of the most talented players we've ever had on the roster before they even reach their primes just because they aren't improving as quickly as your imagination has them improving.

I'm hoping this is just the stupid internet talking.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on November 25, 2016, 08:29:00 AM
I saw that. Seems absurd to get impatient now.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 25, 2016, 10:06:17 AM
Steve Kerr was a guest on (former Obama strategist) David Axelrod's podcast, The Axe Files, with the episode posted on Nov. 23. Axelrod is a basketball fan--he has also had Joakim Noah and Bill Walton on, for example--and Kerr has quite an interesting political history, with his father having been killed in Lebanon when he was the president of the American University there.  I've only heard about 25 minutes so far (of the hour long show), but it's really interesting stuff for basketball and politics fans alike. (Don't worry, at least so far there is nothing too partisan, and there tends to be a lot of courtesy and moderation on this show in general.)

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/ep.-99-steve-kerr/id1043593599?i=1000378197072&mt=2


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on November 25, 2016, 01:40:23 PM
There are reports of rumors ("reports of rumors," this is what sports journalism is...) that Thibs is getting impatient and may trade one of the promising young Wolves for a veteran who can help win games now.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/11/24/rumor-tom-thibodeau-expected-to-trade-young-timberwolves-player-for-established-veteran/

While I'd never say never without knowing specifics--and again, this is all based on speculation at best--I'd be really, really hesitant to move KAT, Wiggins, or LaVine for an older player. I mean, some of the guys mentioned? Taj Gibson? Luol Deng? Fine players, both, but Deng is well into his downside, no doubt a great locker room guy and moderately productive player, but for a future all-star? And Gibson, he's a productive, solid role player. Again, this for a future all-star?

I really, really want this Wolves team to make the playoffs this year. But if it starts looking like they won't, life goes on. Take a few losses for the bigger picture. Move some peripheral guys in an attempt to help things out, maybe Shabazz Muhammad, Gorgui Dieng (if he's trade-eligible...his extension might have messed that up for now), Tyus Jones, Ricky Rubio, even. But you don't start dealing away some of the most talented players we've ever had on the roster before they even reach their primes just because they aren't improving as quickly as your imagination has them improving.

I'm hoping this is just the stupid internet talking.

I saw the article (or an article) talking about this, and I figured that it was just news for the sake of having to have news early in the season.

If this is true, than it's absolutely asinine. What did he expect, to make the Western Conference finals? I exaggerate, but you know what I mean. It's a young team that has to learn. If he's that impatient, then he picked the wrong job, and the Wolves were foolish to give him that kind of control, especially if he starts trading for guys he used to have on Chicago's roster. I understand that he doesn't like to lose, and he's used to winning. This isn't the right way to do it, though (which I'm sure you're aware of, Cap. )


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 25, 2016, 02:04:43 PM
Right there with you.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 26, 2016, 06:40:35 AM
Finally, a late comeback and a win. Thibs went to third-string PG (and local kid) Tyus Jones when Phoenix went small, and left him in there for 19 minutes, where Jones played alongside Ricky Rubio, alongside Kris Dunn, and then alongside Zach LaVine. Jones finished with a +22 plus-minus, with 6 pts on 3-6 shooting, 3 ast, 2 reb, 2 steals, and 0 turnovers.

While he lacks the physical gifts of Dunn and the freakish vision of Rubio, Jones is a more complete kind of point guard. He may be smaller and slower than both, but Jones is a better shooter than either of the men ahead of him on the depth chart--and he's no slouch in terms of court vision, either. Very smart player, even back in high school for Apple Valley. He's quick, if not explosive or fast, and he's got an uncanny sense of how to get where he needs to go and get off the shots he needs to get off. His defense, as I've said before, is pretty bad, but he's improving based on effort and position (as his physical abilities won't ever do him favors on that end).

Jones is why I fear our top two guys as the primary rotation: can you really just cede one of five positions on the offensive end of the court every minute of every game? Even with the likes of KAT, Wig, and LaVine, that's a lot to ask. Four on five is not easy.

Tonight, at Golden State. I'll enjoy last night's win while it lasts.  ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on November 26, 2016, 09:18:22 AM
Pistons hand the Clippers their first road loss of the year. Gotta love that!

Now, if Detroit can learn how to, you know, actually win on the road, they'd be in good shape.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 26, 2016, 09:24:53 AM
While I've been watching their box scores, I haven't seen the Pistons this year. How are Ish Smith and Beno Udrih holding down the fort? Reggie Jackson is practicing again, I understand. Any timetable on that? As opposed to him as I was when they acquired him, I have to admit he's been good there.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 28, 2016, 04:10:37 PM
Wolves host Utah tonight. I'm cautiously optimistic, but even with injuries, that Jazz team is pretty good. Like the Wolves, they have a lot of young, developing talent ... and some of theirs is beginning to enter their primes.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 29, 2016, 03:19:01 PM
Wiggins dunk over McGee the other night was beautiful.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on November 29, 2016, 03:32:31 PM
It was, as was LaVine's over Alex Len, I think it was. Unfortunately we're not playing well...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 29, 2016, 03:34:55 PM
Thibs could swing a trade for vet like Jimmy Butler...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 01, 2016, 06:04:57 AM
How are the pelicans 1-9?

Pelicans are 3-0 since Jrue Holiday's return. Including a beat down of the Hawks (who appear to be coming back down to earth after losing to the Knicks as well).

Speaking of the Knicks :lol I am encouraged by what I'm seeing. Knicks are 7-7 and quietly have a 5 game home winning streak. If they are to be a 40-50 win team they must take advantage of stretches like the one before them...CHA, @CHA, OKC, @MIN, MIN, SAC, @MIA. These games are just as important as games in April. Is 5-2 too much to ask? Probably.

Meanwhile, the LAL beat OKC last night. The Lakers have been up and down, but overall, they keep surprising me.
well the 1st game v MN pissed me off!

But seriously at least the wolves came to play. And KAT!! Wow. Him v Zinger was great.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on December 01, 2016, 02:33:20 PM
well the 1st game v MN pissed me off!

But seriously at least the wolves came to play. And KAT!! Wow. Him v Zinger was great.

I was so frustrated, that during the stoppage with 49 seconds left, I considered taking a break from the Knicks for a while!

KAT was amazing, as well as KP. It really is fun to see them together on the same court (perhaps we will see them again during the All-Star game?). KAT is just too strong for the Knicks to handle. Luckily for us, he really didn't get any help last night. Wiggins had a solid game, LaVine scored in the 4th, but that's about it. Only 5 points from the Wolves bench... I expect the Knicks to win at home. Melo is beyond due to have a good night shooting the ball (in 4 of the previous 5 games he's a combined 23 for 82). I just hope we don't focus too much on KAT, at the expense of getting other guys going. I'm of the mindset that one guy can't beat you. Lock up on everyone else... Knicks gotta stop fouling!!! Especially early in quarters.

Also, what are your thoughts on Rubio? The Knicks commentators (Breen/Clyde) were talking about how Rubio doesn't seem like himself, he doesn't seem to be playing with the same joy as in the past. Anything to that? Is it injuries/losing? I've always been a fan from afar of his and Dunn doesn't look ready if I'm gonna judge him on one game.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on December 01, 2016, 04:39:10 PM
Clippers tonight should be a good game


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 02, 2016, 05:42:11 AM
Also, what are your thoughts on Rubio? The Knicks commentators (Breen/Clyde) were talking about how Rubio doesn't seem like himself, he doesn't seem to be playing with the same joy as in the past. Anything to that? Is it injuries/losing? I've always been a fan from afar of his and Dunn doesn't look ready if I'm gonna judge him on one game.


Rubio definitely hasn't been himself. He seems a little slow, for one thing, which is troubling since he wasn't ever a burner. But he also seems tamed, which could have something to do with a very controlling coach barking orders all game, every game. I mean, Rubio is about 25, 26, and has been running pro teams since he was 14... he's playing ok, he's looking to score early more. But his assists are down, his flair is suppressed, I don't know what it is.

You're right about Dunn: he's ready to play in the NBA, but not to start. He's not even definitively better than fellow backup Tyus Jones, just different.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on December 04, 2016, 09:28:42 AM
20 games in...playoff outlook...

Eastern Conference


As of right now, the Hornets, Knicks, and Bucks are in...Hawks, Pacers, Wizards are out... I fully expect a log jam (seeds  4-10) throughout the season. I don't think seeds 7-9 will be decided until the final night or so of the regular season. All these teams have a legitimate shot at making the playoffs, except the Wizards IMO. Though, the Hawks are in trouble. They are still turning the ball over at an alarming rate (17 tpg) and their offense is below average (32% from 3, 69% from the FT line). Plenty of time to turn it around, but they need a win badly. They started the season 9-2, are 1-9 since.

Any thoughts on these teams? Do the Pacers or Hawks miss the playoffs? Does Giannis carry the Bucks to a playoff berth?

Western Conference


The current seeding is as follows; 1) GS 2) SA 3) LAC 4) HOU 5) MEM 6) OKC 7) UTA 8 ) POR

Barring significant injury, I expect the top 3 seeds to be GS, SA, LAC (in that order). I think POR will rise to a 4-6 seed at the expense of MEM. Otherwise, unlike the East, I don't expect much movement or suspense in the Western Conference. The Lakers will be the most improved team but I don't think it will be enough to capture the 8th seed. Does anyone think SAC, DEN, NO, MIN, PHX, or DAL will go on a run and make the playoffs?

Captain, I revisited your predictions. Do you think you underestimated MEM or MIL? or do you think they're currently over-achieving? If you swap MEM and MIN in the West and WAS and MIL in the East your predictions are fairly aligned with the current standings.

P.S. The Cavs have lost 3 in a row. I caught the end of the Bulls/Cavs game and it just looked like the Bulls wanted it more.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 04, 2016, 01:10:13 PM
Re the East, I do think I probably underestimated Milwaukee. I liked their talent in some spots, but especially without Middleton--the one proven shooter who was also an NBA-starter caliber player--just thought it wasn't going to happen. I could imagine them going either way from here out, either staying roughly where they are or dropping. Giannis is continuing to improve, so there is no good reason to put a ceiling on his potential, and Parker is playing really well right now. There are still questions about PG and C, but it isn't that they're bankrupt there, just odd. (I said "questions," not negative conclusions, after all.) They are almost like the late 80s/early 90s Illinois Flyin' Illini team that almost ignored positions when they ran out with Stephen Bardo, Kendall Gill, Nick Anderson, Kenny Battle, Marcus Liberty, etc. Like them, this team is long, athletic, they can switch anything and everything, they attack the rim, they have passers beyond the backcourt...it's fun.

With Memphis out West, I am not sure I'm ready to concede. Fizdale has done a nice job, and I did NOT expect a team that was going to launch 25 3s a game (and making slightly more than a third of them). However, I have zero faith in their ability to keep it up, especially for health reasons. Chandler Parsons has been injured all the time throughout his pro career, and microfracture, for example, is no joke. And 21 games in, he has played 6 games at 21 mpg. Mike Conley is now out for a while. Tony Allen has missed time. Marc Gasol hasn't historically been a paragon of health. Vince Carter is 100 years old. I expect a drop.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 06, 2016, 07:52:58 AM
Klay Thompson, 60 points in 29 minutes on only 33 shots or something. And "only" 8 3s, which seems low for a 3-point shooter such as himself on such a big-scoring night. Wow. When, in his last game, Kobe had 60, he made one more shot, but took 17 more shots (22-50 FG).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on December 07, 2016, 01:52:34 PM
Incredible! Occasionally, a player will get 20 in a quarter or 40 through 3, but 60 in 29 minutes! Insane. I heard he only took 11 dribbles and had the ball for less than 90 seconds.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 09, 2016, 09:09:44 AM
Detroit at Minnesota tonight: hopefully it's a chance to wash out the bad taste of last night's Toronto loss. So Verlander, I'm rooting against you. Vigorously!

But I have a question for you, too. I haven't seen Detroit play this year, I don't think, but I have noticed in the boxes that Stanley Johnson hasn't advanced. Is this just because of a logjam at the PF spot that moves combo guys like Tobias Harris more into the SF spot, squeezing him for minutes? Or is he playing poorly? I thought by the end of last year he was really finding his footing in the NBA as a guy who maybe didn't shoot all that well, but did a lot of little things. And he certainly didn't lack confidence. But with the Morris twin, Jon Leuer, Henry Ellenson, I can see where minutes are harder to come by. And he can't really play SG without being a better shooter and handler.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on December 10, 2016, 05:05:48 AM
Detroit at Minnesota tonight: hopefully it's a chance to wash out the bad taste of last night's Toronto loss. So Verlander, I'm rooting against you. Vigorously!

But I have a question for you, too. I haven't seen Detroit play this year, I don't think, but I have noticed in the boxes that Stanley Johnson hasn't advanced. Is this just because of a logjam at the PF spot that moves combo guys like Tobias Harris more into the SF spot, squeezing him for minutes? Or is he playing poorly? I thought by the end of last year he was really finding his footing in the NBA as a guy who maybe didn't shoot all that well, but did a lot of little things. And he certainly didn't lack confidence. But with the Morris twin, Jon Leuer, Henry Ellenson, I can see where minutes are harder to come by. And he can't really play SG without being a better shooter and handler.

Johnson seems to be in the doghouse a bit. Van Gundy last week said that his work ethic was 'inconsistent'. This was after he was suspended for a game for violating team rules (which they of course didn't give any detail on). And as you said, there is a squeeze for minutes also, with Tobias Harris and Marcus Morris eating up the small forward minutes. So it's a combination of things. They aren't happy with him right now, and he's probably pouting about it a bit. So he can either get his act together and do what they want, or keep sulking and maybe get dealt in the off-season. I think he'll come around. He's only 20 after all, he's a pretty young kid, and it's only his 2nd year. I think by the end of the year they'll come to an understanding. He's a really talented guy, so I'd like to see him stay, for sure.

And uh, I think that you probably have a worse taste in your mouth this morning after that beatdown last night! Drummond had a pretty good game, I'd say! I can feel Thibs cooking up a deal to get some vets on his team!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 10, 2016, 06:43:18 AM
Yes, last night was horrible. The only two bright spots for me were a) seeing Rubio hit double figures and shoot well (4-5 FG) and b) seeing Minnesota's own Jon Leuer have a really nice game. However, that was bittersweet, reminiscent of his success against the Gophers when he played for Wisconsin. I envision something changing, but I don't know what it is. Local columnists are beginning to call for Kris Dunn to start, but I don't see that as helping anything much. Probably the opposite. So some lineup shakeup? A trade? I don't know.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on December 10, 2016, 07:26:53 AM
Leuer is a solid player! He was one of those signings that wasn't 'sexy', but he's averaging something like 10 points and 7 boards off the bench. I'll take that any day. And it looks like they're really starting to get him some looks on offense; Van Gundy said that they ran a couple of plays for him last night, which they haven't done very often. So, good stuff.

A Minnesota trade rumor that I read was some sort of a 3 team trade, with Minnesota ending up with Nerlens Noel, who seems to be the hot trade target right now.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 10, 2016, 08:35:22 AM
Leuer is very good. He was a late bloomer in high school, and the Gophers apparently never offered him until quite late--I think his senior year. (To be fair, he was only about 6-1 until I think his sophomore or junior year, when he shot up to eventually landing at 6-10, 6-11ish.) He is the kind of guy Wisconsin always seems to identify and develop. Having been a guard, he had nice face-up skills, which then served him well in college and as the pros shift toward that whole face-up 4 thing.

Noel ... eh. I wouldn't love that. He's athletic and active, but I'm not sure his production matches the optics. Plus he's been hurt his entire career: who's to say he'd stay healthy? Anyway, the kind of player he is--garbage man and defender, not much else--seems to be a worse version of what we already have in Gorgui Dieng, though he's more athletic than Gorgui.

It's tough to put my finger on what we're lacking, because you go up and down the roster and see athleticism, shooting, length, rebounding, character. It's obviously something else, something more intangible like chemistry. The word is veteran leadership, yet once you're out of our top few guys, you have 4th year players in Baz and Dieng, 3rd year guys in Wig and LaVine, 2nd in KAT, Belly, and Tyus Jones. Rubio is in his 5th or 6th year. Brandon Rush, Cole Aldrich, and John Lucas III are vets. We're not really THAT young. Something just isn't fitting.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on December 10, 2016, 09:04:21 AM
Obviously, it's still very early on, but are you happy with Thibs? Any concern he isn't the right fit?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 10, 2016, 09:31:05 AM
I'm not sure about Thibs being the problem--after all, he has a proven track record and the guys on this team for the most part don't--but I am concerned about the overall results, absolutely. We're 6-17 right now; last year we had 9 wins by Dec. 10, and that was considered a disappointing start. This year I fully expected to be somewhere around .500 throughout the season, maybe a few games under, ideally a few games over, but right in that ballpark. Instead we're ahead of only woeful Dallas (that aging and scotch-taped roster even further beaten up by injuries), trailing even such expected trainwrecks as Phoenix and New Orleans. It's embarrassing.

As I wrote above, the issue really does seem to be fit. Maybe we should start Belly at PF and bring Gorgui off the bench? Maybe LaVine should be 6th man, with ... somebody else starting. (We're not strong on the wings, really...presumably Baz could start, or maybe even Rush.) I've read rumors of Luol Deng being a possible trade target, but his production is so low right now, I wouldn't give up much for him, especially with his new contract--locker room presence or not. I'm not sure what I'd want to do. But something has to happen.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on December 10, 2016, 04:04:52 PM
Maybe they'll bring a guy in like Noah, who isn't afraid to kick someone's ass-either on the other team, or his own. A guy who can be a vocal leader.

Oddly enough, with this Stanley Johnson talk, he is being sent down to the D-league team in Grand Rapids. He, Ellenson, and Gbinjie (or however you spell it) are going down. Johnson (and maybe the other 2) will be back in Detroit for the game with the Sixers tomorrow night.

I don't know what the point of it is. To get him some playing time somehow, in order to boost his confidence? As a punishment for breaking some rule (that he already was punished for last week by getting a DNP-CD)? It seems odd that he would get sent down for just one game.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 11, 2016, 06:41:34 AM
I don't know, it's not so strange for second-year guys to get sent down, whether for practice or games, especially if (like Johnson) they aren't playing.

We don't use our D-League affiliate much, but that's mostly because we're one of only a handful of teams that hasn't bought or arranged for single-team affiliation yet. (When Saunders returned, that was on the priority list, but fell after the new downtown practice facility and medical center, the Target Center overhaul, etc.) I expect that we'll have a team within a short driving distance within a couple years, probably in Rochester because of the franchise's affiliation with the Mayo health system. (Mayo was begun and is still based on Rochester, which is about 90 minutes southeast of the Twin Cities.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 13, 2016, 06:00:34 PM
Wolves look pretty bad in Chicago on an ESPN game, down about 20 late in the 2nd. But there are these moments where you wonder how we can ever lose with the talent some of these guys show.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 13, 2016, 06:11:30 PM
Heh, and just like that, it's a game again at the half... As I said, these guys are so talented--you see it in glimpses--you wonder how they ever lose.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on December 15, 2016, 01:11:18 PM
2016 now, without a doubt, the worst fuckin year ever! RIP Craig!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 15, 2016, 02:04:33 PM
RIP Craig, and keeping the 1970s alive with your style!  :-\


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 15, 2016, 03:25:44 PM
2016 now, without a doubt, the worst fuckin year ever! RIP Craig!
I sense hyperbole. 1945, maybe?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on December 15, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
2016 now, without a doubt, the worst fuckin year ever! RIP Craig!
I sense hyperbole. 1945, maybe?

Do me a favor and skip my posts!  IMO,You've turned into a sanctimonious know it all who has to argue with everyone. I guess the void from AGDs departure has to be filled by another a hole.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 15, 2016, 04:45:34 PM
I've always been sanctimonious. It's a flaw I acknowledge. But I do enjoy argument, which sharpens the minds of everyone involved (if they're doing a good job of it). Going forward I'll try to remember to ignore you, though. I admit I tend to forget who's who around the internet, however, and so everyone more or less blends together for me. If I respond to you in the future, accept my apology in advance: I probably forgot about this exchange, or who asked me to ignore him/her.

You do me a favor and consider thickening your skin. I didn't insult you in the slightest.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on December 15, 2016, 04:54:35 PM
I've always been sanctimonious. It's a flaw I acknowledge. But I do enjoy argument, which sharpens the minds of everyone involved (if they're doing a good job of it). Going forward I'll try to remember to ignore you, though. I admit I tend to forget who's who around the internet, however, and so everyone more or less blends together for me. If I respond to you in the future, accept my apology in advance: I probably forgot about this exchange, or who asked me to ignore him/her.

You do me a favor and consider thickening your skin. I didn't insult you in the slightest.

Where you read I said you insulted me I have no idea. Your post was insulting to the memory of Craig!

You can't shoe a little respect for the passing of the great Craig Sager without trolling for a debate.

I will direct the remainder of my thoughts via PM.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 15, 2016, 05:41:06 PM
You know, I was thinking as the game began--not for a good reason, since his Bulls are down six or eight at the moment--that Jimmy Butler has been a lot of fun to watch. He left high school irrelevant. He left junior college as the 127th ranked player from that year's JuCo ranks according to 247 Sports's composite ranking of major services. (For comparison, I scanned that year's Top 50 JuCos and recognized about half a dozen names, two of them because they became Gophers.) Last pick of the first round out of Marquette, which actually already shows ridiculous work put in, unbelievable improvement and achievement. This means guaranteed money that can change a person's life.

But while his former college teammate Lazar Hayward (the final pick of the previous draft's first round) already has basically bounced himself out of the league altogether, and Fes Ezili (that last first-rounder the year after) has earned a big second contract on size and theoretical ability more than production, with roughly 4 ppg and 4 rpg thus far in his career), Butler's ppg has gone like this: 2.6, 8.6, 13.1, 20.0, 20.9, 25.7. Not only improvement, but almost always amazing improvement. His 3-point shooting has gone from almost literally nonexistent to 35% or more. He notches more assists per game (4.8 last year) than some of the scoring point guards, and while he has rebounded well for a guard, he is to almost 7 rpg as a first-year small forward, out of position because of Dwyane Wade.

All offense? Hardly. He is a tough, scrappy, smart, athletic defender. And at 6-7, he sometimes guards everyone 1-4.

I think that shooting guard has been the league's weakest position in recent years is generally accepted. Yet I think it's absurd that when talking about those best among the guys we have, it's mostly James Harden (before he became PG this year) and Klay Thompson. If the writer feels nostalgic, he'd mention Kobe or Dwyane. If he felt forward-thinking, maybe Devin Booker. But what about Jimmy Butler? If I were a coach, he'd be among my 15 most coveted players in the game today. Maybe 10.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 15, 2016, 05:58:04 PM
I just also have to say, I love Mirza Teletovic (in a wholly different way). There's something deeply satisfying about watching a shot-hunting, soft-bodied Eastern European player who looks like he can't decide whether, after draining a fadeaway 3 on an inattentive defender, he'd rather smoke a cigarette or punch you in the face.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on December 15, 2016, 06:37:44 PM
Beer summit between cap and ORR? :-\


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRiderHawaii on December 15, 2016, 07:04:15 PM
Beer summit between cap and ORR? :-\

We're good now via PM. If we were closer, absolutely! Drown our Trump sorrows!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on December 15, 2016, 07:21:32 PM
Malcolm Brogdon seems promising.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 29, 2017, 08:35:37 AM
The Bulls' three alphas turned into the three assholes thanks to Rondo's meddling in the locker room.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on January 29, 2017, 08:53:24 AM
As much as I have turned against Rondo since his final year or two in Boston, I disagree about that. I think Wade and Butler were out of line by publicly calling out teammates without privately calling out teammates. I think Rondo's response to their bullshit was right on, especially for someone like Wade who admittedly has been taking off games and practices. He's aging, OK ... but KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen (for example) weren't? What about some older role player, does he take time off? No. It's prima donna bullshit from Wade especially.

The Bulls' struggles are because their front office made an absurd Frankenstein's monster in the name of ticket sales. Big Three, my ass. You've got a coach committed to a style of play that requires a spaced floor and versatile players who can all shoot, pass, and drive. You've got a front office that chose to sign an over-the-hill Rajon Rondo who could never shoot and barely finish drives, and an over-the-hill Dwyane Wade, who could never shoot and is less effective on his drives. This to pair with Jimmy Butler, who is the best Hoiberg fit of the three, but isn't a knockdown shooter. You then acquire Jerian Grant, who has shot horribly in the NBA. You then acquire MCW, who can't shoot. You have about half a dozen power forwards. And then you have one real shooter, McDermott, whose effectiveness will be limited because defenses can focus on him.

It's the ownership and the front office who are to blame there. You could see it coming.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 29, 2017, 08:58:00 AM
Agreed on the ownership, they drove a great coach in Thibs out of town over ego issues.  John Paxton and Gar Forman are the worst management in the league due to thinking they know the game better than the coach. Sound familiar to what Jerry Krause did to Phil Jackson and hiring an Iowa state coach? ::)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 29, 2017, 09:01:01 AM
Rondo might have appeared right on the surface to the media but it's always a game with him in the locker room. He is pissed that he doesn't start games anymore and does his usual divide the locker room stuff by making the Wade/Butler situation that much worse.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on January 29, 2017, 09:05:45 AM
That's entirely correct, too. I don't dispute that. But it still points back to ownership and management because that's no secret. Didn't we know who Rondo was? If the casual fan did (which I think s/he did), how could management and ownership not? Rondo has been playing this kind of game since the Boston rebuild began, simple as that. To expect anything else from him was naieve.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 29, 2017, 09:14:18 AM
My fellow fans were trashing the move in October knowing the potential mess he would cause but the management wanted to sell tickets like you said. They need a rebuild but Gar/Pax are too stupid or arrogant to do so. Wolves still want Jimmy Butler?   ;)        My cousin was his banker in Chicago and says he is a great guy! (Back when he  was a rookie at least)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on January 29, 2017, 09:17:53 AM
I'd take Jimmy Butler in a heartbeat, even after his somewhat sanctimonious comments to the media, and if the Bulls prioritized anyone else on that roster over him, wow. That would be a mistake and a huge rebuild. (What would I give up for Butler? That I'm not so sure about. Obviously not KAT. Wiggins or LaVine? Oooof, very tough to do, just because of the attractiveness of the potential. (Let's not be stupid, reality trumps--make that tops, I don't care for that other word anymore--potential. How many guys with "potential" end up living up to more than a fraction of it? Not many.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 29, 2017, 09:22:00 AM
You never know with gar/Pax these days! I want them gone  from running the team but Jerry Reinsdorf seems to have lost all interest in the team once Jordan retired.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 29, 2017, 09:37:26 AM
Captain, you go to any wolves games this year?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on January 29, 2017, 10:21:08 AM
I haven't. Honestly I am not a big fan of attending games in person, at least at the professional or major-college scale. The circus and hassles that surround the games damage the games themselves for me. Blaring "Welcome to the Jungle" and other apparently required stadium listening, stupid timeout/halftime stunts, dance teams, overpriced booze, annoying crowds ... not my favorite. I do love attending games when I can get good seats, or on a smaller scale: high school games are great, and smaller colleges, too. But the basketball-industrial complex should die!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 29, 2017, 10:44:23 AM
I gotcha on that, I saw my local college team Virginia Commonwealth University (VCU) win big last week! Plus had a hell of time in that college atmosphere that reminded me of the fun in the game.


I can't wait it stick it to the basketball-industrial complex in Washington DC by wearing my Bullets gear to the Wizards game! ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on January 29, 2017, 11:02:59 AM
I have no choice but to hate VCU for giving us shamed former athletic director Norwood Teague, who resigned after sexually harassing the Minneapolis Star Tribune's Gophers basketball beat writer, among others. Slimy piece of sh*t. Some held out hope that he could lure Shaka Smart to UMN after Tubby Smith, but that pipe dream was bludgeoned and replaced by Baby Pitino.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 29, 2017, 11:07:36 AM
Jesus, I didn't know that happened. Though the program started to change for the worse once they thought they were "hot stuff" after the miracle final four run. The new coach Will Wade has the program back on track to what its supposed to be.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on January 29, 2017, 11:58:55 AM
Luckily the VCU program didn't have to suffer with the downsides he brought here. Historically I'm actually a fan of the ol' Rams, whether back in my HS days when Kendrick Warren was an intriguing pro prospect, or under Anthony Grant, or Shaka Smart, or now. Some nice players have come through, and even more good teams.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on January 29, 2017, 12:50:40 PM
Mo Alie Cox is great guy who stayed all four year rocking the floor for the team. I will miss him when he graduates in May!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 01, 2017, 02:47:49 PM
f***...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2690626-jimmy-butler-reportedly-among-bulls-players-concerned-with-front-office-spying


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 04, 2017, 06:38:14 AM
Mr Verlander might be a happy man, but I am really disappointed that the Wolves gave Jon Leuer and Marcus Morris career highs in points en route to losing the game to Detroit. Disappointing for a lot of reasons:

 - Those forwards should be relatively easy to guard: neither is especially good off the dribble or athletic--they are mostly (streak) shooters.
 - Our forwards are theoretically among our best defenders: since before he played an NBA game, Wiggins has been called a potential stopper, and Dieng's bread and butter is defense.
 - We have diverse secondary options, ranging from the smaller (Baz) to bigger (KAT) to just another look (Bjelly).
 - Coming off an embarrassing loss to Cleveland, up against a relatively evenly matched team, we should have taken advantage of the opportunity.
 
Yet we give up 60 points to two role-playing near-journeymen.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on February 04, 2017, 02:58:38 PM
I came back just for you!

I'll take what I can get, as far as the Pistons go. One of the most disappointing teams in the NBA this year. I'm pretty sure that Reggie Jackson is going to be gone either by the trade deadline, or in the off season. They don't play well with him, for whatever reason. Either he isn't the same guy he was before he got hurt, or he's just gonna be a guy who has terrible shot selection, who knows? There's been a lot of grumbling though. It will be interesting to see what happens next. I'd rather they make some mega deal for someone like (forgive me) Demarcus Cousins. This team isn't going to contend for anything. The worst thing that can happen to a team is they end up like Atlanta; good enough for a 6-8 seed, and not bad enough to get a high draft pick. Then you're stuck in limbo.

Just read that Lavine is done for the year. Ouch.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 04, 2017, 03:27:05 PM
By the way, I'm a Jon Leuer fan, so I admit to some mixed feelings. He is Minnesotan, after all. We have to cheer for our guys, since there are relatively few in the league.*

I agree that things just aren't coming together in Detroit the way everyone thought they might. And Jackson, who had seemed like such a surprisingly good fit after the trade to the point that I was eating crow, seems like old Reggie Jackson again, the guy who pouted himself out of town in OKC, resenting that Russell Westbrook was the man in that backcourt.


*Off the top of my head, Leuer, Kris Humphries, Tyus Jones, Rashad Vaughn, Cole Aldrich, Alan Anderson, Mike Muscala ... I think that's it, with Nate Wolters, Royce White, and maybe Trent Lockett hanging around the periphery.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 04, 2017, 03:48:00 PM
Oh, and re LaVine ... talk about depressing. The Wolves really can never seem to catch a break, injury-wise. I can't recall the last season when we didn't have one or more of our top couple players miss really substantial time. In the past few years, it's been Pekovic, Rubio, Garnett, Love, Martin, Kirilenko, Roy, Budinger, Barea, Howard, Webster, Johnson, Ellington...there have been individual games when we've had six or seven of our top ten guys all miss a game. This year has been really good on that front, really with only Rubio missing a handful of games, and now this. Very depressing.

The question will be, do we try to make a deal for somebody to take his place? Or does Baz or Brandon Rush move into the starting lineup, or even Bjelly into the SF spot with Wiggins going to SG, and those guard and wing reserves just play heavier minutes to compensate?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 06:17:24 AM
Despite having complained about going to games earlier in the thread, I will be in attendance to watch the Bulls hopefully get destroyed this afternoon. It's unusual to have the visiting team be more dysfunctional than Minnesota, in my experience, so that will be fun.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 06:32:54 AM
Wearing a Starter tracksuit and Isaiah Rider champion jersey? >:D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 06:36:35 AM
LOL. I'll grant him this: no former Timberwolf was as good at kicking women in the back at promotional events as JR Rider. (Sadly, real thing. Mall of America promotional event. Kicked a woman. In the back. Though to be fair, he claimed he did not kick her--he claimed he pushed her ... with his foot.)

I think my ultimate ironic jerseys of choice to wear to Wolves games would be something like Igor Rakocevic, Pat Durham, Gundars Vetra, maybe the late great Charles "Original Shaq" Shackleford (RIP!), or of course Darko. That or any of the guys we should have drafted: maybe a Steph Curry.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 06:56:31 AM
Dammit, least Rider is a good citizen and flying dunker in NBA Jam tournament edition! On the ironic jersey front, original Shaq sounds intriguing along with a Joe (screwed the franchise) Smith or a Marbury since he a Chinese Legend.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 07:07:24 AM
I need a Fizer or any other stub jersey from the dark Tim Floyd years (first to last came so quickly).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 07:16:15 AM
Hey, half a season that team included the guy I still think was the best high school player in Minnesota history, the great, great Khalid El-Amin. Obviously he didn't turn out to be the best, but just in terms of how he stood out above his competition and what he did as a high schooler in terms of winning, wow. So good. And he was pretty damn good as a rookie for Tim Floyd, right up until Floyd cut him midseason.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 07:24:48 AM
Is Tim Floyd still coaching after the USC OJ Mayo fiasco? Though I grew up in Bulls halcyon days of Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 07:34:36 AM
Yeah he landed at UTEP shortly after leaving USC--maybe even that next season. And true to form (for his college coaching career), he has mostly had them successful. This looks like it will be only his second losing record in seven seasons there.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 07:39:41 AM
Gar-Pax will be impressed and rehire him... ::)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 07:46:40 AM
They weren't in charge back then, though, were they? Wasn't he a Krause-Reinsdorf guy? But that organization certainly has a rough history with management having predetermined, handpicked coaches in waiting...



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 07:51:54 AM
Yeah Krause got jealous of Jordan and Phil Jackson during the glory years. Hence the dynasty being taken apart overnight in 1998.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 08:04:06 AM
To be fair, we knew Jackson was leaving regardless after that season: he'd said so prior to that year. Woj (who I read might be in negotiations to join ESPN, by the way) had Krause on his podcast last week or so, and he explained the dismantling in a way that did make some sense. Granted, that's 20 years later and coming from the guy who might be covering his own ass by telling revisionist history. But he was pointing out things like Jackson's imminent exit, Longley's and Rodman's health issues as their bodies broke down, Jordan's contract, etc. Basically nobody wanted to stick around unless the team was a championship contender, but financial and health considerations made that extremely unlikely, so they decided to blow it up.

But the fact that they were unable to really build anything despite some really good chances in those years is pretty sad. 1999, #1 pick (Elton Brand) and #16 pick (Ron Artest). 2000, #4 (Marcus Fizer), #6 (Chris Mihm), and #24 (Dalibor Bagaric). 2001, #4 (Eddy Curry) and via trade of Brand, #2 (Tyson Chandler). 2002, #2 (Jay Williams). 2003, #7 (Kirk Hinrich). 2004, #3 (Ben Gordon). 2006, #2 (Lamarcus Aldridge, traded for Tyrus Thomas). It's only then that they bring in Del Negro in that ballpark, draft Noah and then Rose, then have Thibs really turn that team into a legitimate winner. The fact that they had five first-rounders in 99-00, and really did nothing to further the progress of the team with them (just basically flipping them for more temporary pieces) is really sad. Wolves-like, actually. Kahn-like, to be more specific.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 08:15:54 AM
Good points, I was only 7 years old watching them in the finals so maybe my childhood was a little spoiled basketball-wise. Nobody is worse than Kahn, you still have nightmares about his moves?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 08:25:10 AM
(https://s24.postimg.org/acn484ixx/IMG_3032.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/75skohyht/)image upload no size limit (https://postimage.org/). Thibs needs to wear this today!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 08:33:02 AM
You know, he wasn't always entirely incorrect. More along the lines of "too cute by half." For example, he really was good for breaking up large, terrible contracts and instead gambling more on cheaper, shorter-term deals and guys with legitimate talent. He helped us move from the Trenton Hassells, Troy Hudsons, Mark Blounts, and Ricky Davises of the world into guys who at least in theory could have been really valuable, and were to varying degrees: Michael Beasley, Darko Milicic, Gerald Green.

But he'd end up outsmarting himself, moving on his moves and then moving those. Consider, as Al Jefferson seemed necessary to move (and I believe as his contract was expiring) because of Love, we shipped him to Utah for Kosta Koufos and two future firsts (2011 and 2012). Koufos is a solid backup center. No complaints for him to be part of a package for Jefferson. But that 2011 pick was Donatas Motiejunas--again, a solid player, a real talent. We traded him immediately, packaging him with Jonny Flynn and the pick that became Will Barton to Houston for Brad Miller, Chandler Parsons, another future 1st, and the rights to Nikola Mirotic.

Now is where it gets nuts.

Brad Miller played 15 games and retired.

Chandler Parsons was immediately traded back to Houston for cash.

The rights to Nikola Mirotic were immediately traded for Norris Cole, Malcolm Lee, and cash.

The first round pick later turned out to be Andre Roberson, whom we packaged with Lee for cash and a future second-rounder (Allesandro Gentile, whose rights I believe we no longer hold).

So, we traded 20-and-10 Al Jefferson for a backup center (Kosta Koufos), 15 games of Brad Miller's final season, cash, and the rights to a 2nd round pick we no longer hold. In the process, we had and moved the rights to the likes of productive players Motiejunas, Mirotic, and Parsons. Even Roberson, to some extent. Oh, and Koufos? We had him for a handful of games before moving him in the Carmelo Anthony trade, our core get-back of which was Anthony Randolph, who is no longer in the league. (We also got cash in that deal. Shocker.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 09:19:15 AM
Jesus, all that wheeling and dealing for nothing in the end. Kinda reminds me when the Wolves traded Kevin Garnett for all those Boston players....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 09:24:15 AM
Well to make matters worse, let's remember that Al Jefferson was the centerpiece of what we got back in that KG trade. And while he was no KG (obviously), he was young and he was really, really good in the post on offense. As I said, he was a 20-and-10 guy. But if you want to make matters worse, you can take my previous post and start one step further back: KG. We traded KG to Boston for Jefferson, Gerald Green, and Sebastian Telfair, basically. (I assume there were picks in there, too, though I think my last post probably also dealt with all those picks, i.e., we basically traded them all down and sold them eventually for cash.)

We had another awful Boston-centered trade right before moving KG, too. Szczerbiak and a 2009 1st (plus some trash) to Boston for--are you ready!?--Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, and Marcus Banks (plus some other trash). We also did get a 2nd rounder in that, which turned into Pekovic, so that was nice.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 09:29:48 AM
Damn, that was rough patch of wacky deals, I thought with work that Jefferson and Love could have payed together. A shame about Wally, he was so good for so long on the wolves.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 09:37:15 AM
Well, Love and Jefferson had huge, huge issues defensively. Love was doughy back then, so he was even slower of foot than he is now. And Jefferson became a much better defender as time went on in a team concept, but even so he really only worked his way up to, say, slightly below average. Back then he was horrible. And neither one could protect the rim at all, so you had guys just driving on everyone. (It didn't help that our backcourts couldn't defend, either...)

So I do acknowledge that a Love-Jefferson frontcourt wasn't going to work long-term. Especially since in those days Randy Wittman BRILLIANTLY refused to let Love shoot outside of the paint. (I'm not kidding.) So you had two low-post scorers and non-defenders as the centerpiece of the team at the time.

Thankfully, eventually we brought in Adelman to coach, which helped, and then Flip to lead the organization (and eventually coach). That helped a lot. Now, frankly it's too soon to see whether Thibs is going to be a great front office guy, but hopefully he'll do all right. I like what he's done so far, which is to say nothing much. I didn't love the Dunn pick, though I'm OK with it. But his best trait as a president so far has been not doing anything drastic, just rolling with the talented young guys, and seeing where we are. I don't expect anything major at the deadline, either, though we might make peripheral moves. I'd expect this offseason to be when we do something or other, whether it's Rubio, a core guy, or certainly Baz at least.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 09:50:11 AM
OMG I just checked the injury report and Wade and Butler are both out!?!? Sadly this worries me a little: the Wolves have a long and storied tradition of blowing games to teams sitting all of their good players. (Memphis--multiple times--comes to mind.) Goddamnit. I'm having premonitions of Michael Carter Williams or Jerian Grant or Denzel Valentine kicking our asses.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 10:04:01 AM
It's not happening with this Bulls team!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 10:21:02 AM
This is just a suggestion, either way it's cool - But would you consider making this a PM conversation since it's not on topic or music related and since the last two pages of it has been 99% a two-man conversation? If not, that's cool too but just a suggestion. Thanks either way.  :)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 10:23:33 AM
Sorry, lazy Sunday with not much going on.... :p


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 10:24:35 AM
No apology necessary, just a suggestion! Cool either way.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 10:25:45 AM
Sixers fan right?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 10:37:21 AM
Sixers fan right?

Not since Pat Croce left as GM. What happened afterward was one of the worst declines of a pro team in any sport I have ever seen. Iverson was right when he gave his "practice" press conference, that was the frustration many real fans had after Croce got the whole region supporting and loving a sad-sack team then he got shown the door and they became mediocre again, worried more about protecting Larry Brown's old-fashioned work ethics than they were about winning games on the court. Iverson has been the only, and I mean the ONLY player to energize that team and a city since Dr J and the '83 season, and they were more worried about his style than the way he played ball. More idiotic Philly management that infects all four major teams.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 10:43:04 AM
I hear you on bad management in Chicago with the Bulls and Bears. Thank god the Cubs and Blackhawks are so damn good. The "process" that the 76ers are doing must make some interesting Philly sports talk radio.....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on February 12, 2017, 02:35:54 PM
 R.I.P Fab melo

Cavs had horrible management, until david griffin took-over..
i hear you sixers fans, we have the browns here to compare. horrible product, crooked hillbilly owner whos exploited millions from cuyahoga to fund a sh*t product with the subtle threat of 'relocation' if the demands werent met then got 120 mill from firstenergy for naming rights to a stadium that needs 'repairs' at the taxpayers expense.., just a horrible team all together. point blank an embarrassment to the city for 18 years! They do not deserve the first pick cuz we'll be stuck with tim couch 2.0..  sorry i can bash the sh*t out of that team all day


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 03:16:30 PM
In light of my previous post...I have to join the discussion!  ;D

The Sixers to be honest fell off the radar. I stopped listening to sports talk about 2 decades ago, but I know most of the city sports fans after a certain point simply didn't care because it felt like the team management stopped caring about the fans. And the whole Iverson-Larry Brown conflict drew lines that I and a lot of fans thought were bogus.

But for those outside Philly, let me go back a bit and set the scene. If I get any details wrong, please correct because it's been years.

Before Iverson, there was a Sixers owner named Harold Katz. Keep in mind this 76ers team was once a proud winning team, I mentioned Dr J already but that championship season had Dr J and Moses Malone with his "fo fi fo" prediction and all the good ball that was played.

So Katz comes in, I mean we had Barkley and Mahorn and the "Bump N Thump" team that was pretty cool, but the Sixers hit a brick wall. So Katz had a key draft signing and went with a gangly kid named Shawn Bradley against almost the whole city's wishes. Katz gave him a special jersey with the number 76 and was building a team around this guy...only he couldn't play, he couldn't shoot, and he was soft as hell on the court. At one point they even hired back Moses Malone as a personal coach to try to man up Shawn Bradley and toughen him up, never mind the shooting problems. It didn't work.

So picture a franchise getting a franchise player to build the team around him, and he couldn't play worth a damn. To make it worse, at one point Shawn Bradley literally disappeared from the team - Turned out he was on a religious mission or something and bailed on the team's schedule.

And Katz...I forget the details but there was some kind of a big deal surrounding the team where they needed Katz, and no one could find him or contact him. Turns out he was on a luxury cruise vacation or some sh*t and wasn't taking calls.

That was the Harold Katz Sixers. Eventually Katz left and Bradley got shipped out. Then Iverson came in, and so did Pat Croce as GM.

Croce was a known figure around Philly, he was successful as a motivational kind of guy and also had an exercise or fitness deal going, so he was usually on TV and had a really good way with people. He had also been a personal assistant to Chuck Barris in a previous career...or something, lol.

And Croce literally got the whole city behind the team. he rebuilt a fanbase from literal ashes, and used to do a lot of outreach and public appearances to get fans back on board. He'd be seen standing on busy intersections in Philly handing out Sixers hats and shaking hands, and was really getting the city pumped. It worked.

Enter Iverson, who was a controversial pick but the guy played as tough of a game as I've seen, especially for his size, and would have a way of frustrating the other teams because no matter how much they knocked him around and down on the court, he'd get back up and make them pay for it. A true player, even with all his personal baggage from the past.

They went to the finals, and the playoffs combined with the regular season was the best basketball I have personally seen. I don't think I missed more than a few games that season, it was electric. And the playoffs with teams like the Bucks were the kind of basketball that spoils you forever. As good a game as you'll see, battling odds that people didn't think could be beaten. Unfortunately they lost to the Lakers in the finals, but as a true Philly fan I still say they were robbed by poor officiating and couldn't overcome the coddling of the celebrity players like Shaq and Kobe.

Put it this way...in the finals, there was a scrum under the basket where the two big men Shaq abnd Dikembe Motuombo were fighting for the ball. Shaq literally shoved the ball into Motuombo's face, a deliberate foul, and Dikembe got the foul! That was complete bullshit...but that was the refs coddling the big stars whose jerseys sold and made money.

Another annoyance from that finals...Tyronn Lue. What a pain in the ass. Anyway,  :)

Then Croce was gone, and since then the Sixers have had situations where they were better off losing games to get higher draft picks...and when they got those picks, in some cases they flopped. Imagine a team who once rallied literally the whole region behind them being reduced to deliberately underplaying and losing games to garner draft picks, and ownership that doesn't do anything for the fans or the team's well being except offer cheap seats in package deals that no one bothers with.

Shameful. But that's the state of basketball in Philly with the Sixers. If they get anyone as electric and as ballsy as Iverson in his prime, I'll watch them. But my avoidance of them continues as of the present day.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 03:25:35 PM
Can you tell I'm still mad as hell over that whole thing with the Sixers?  :lol


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 03:32:48 PM
Man,Croce sounds unlike any GM ever. It sounds like he tapped into Philly's working man culture well.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 03:43:02 PM
Croce was one of a kind, and that is very true: He understood the city and the people and how they react to sports in Philly, and rallied everyone. I know a winning team gathers a lot of fair-weather fans, but this was different in some way. Croce had people who didn't even follow the NBA rallied around the team. I can't describe it, but imagine driving around the Philly suburbs and seeing Sixers flags on all kinds of cars. The sporting goods stores couldn't keep the merch on the racks, and it became very difficult to get tickets. The Phillies when they won it all in '08 was the expected result and a very special thing, but the way Croce himself understood the fans and the city...that was awesome to be a part of as they won game after game.

Then Croce was gone, and the Iverson work ethic became a hot topic after Larry Brown thought practice was a higher priority than winning and putting your whole self out there on the court, even carrying the team in some cases. Shameful. I can't remember who replaced Croce, but he wasn't anywhere near Pat. He'd show up at games wearing designer suits and shoes that look like they cost what a fan made in a month's pay...and it was the ol' politics of money and schmoozing back in Philly from the front office.

One thing Croce did that won the fans over but pissed off his bosses in the ownership...again, if the details are wrong, please correct. A very, very, very well-known and prominent politician was in Philly and wanted tickets to a Sixers game. They were going to accommodate him and re-seat some fans who had bought tickets so the politician could attend. Croce apparently stepped in and said no, those seats are for the fans and if they paid to see the game, they get top priority.

Some say that move by Croce ruffled the wrong feathers in Philly and national politics and not long after, he was out. But Croce did the right thing.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on February 12, 2017, 03:48:44 PM
WOW all because he wouldnt kiss ass for some 'politician'..


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 03:56:11 PM
True story. Made the papers. I can post it but it may risk getting politics into this as well, and making it more about that than what a stand-up thing Croce did.

The scuttlebutt around Philly was that when Croce's time was coming up...this episode didn't help him career-wise.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on February 12, 2017, 04:03:43 PM
In light of my previous post...I have to join the discussion!  ;D

The Sixers to be honest fell off the radar. I stopped listening to sports talk about 2 decades ago, but I know most of the city sports fans after a certain point simply didn't care because it felt like the team management stopped caring about the fans. And the whole Iverson-Larry Brown conflict drew lines that I and a lot of fans thought were bogus.

But for those outside Philly, let me go back a bit and set the scene. If I get any details wrong, please correct because it's been years.

Before Iverson, there was a Sixers owner named Harold Katz. Keep in mind this 76ers team was once a proud winning team, I mentioned Dr J already but that championship season had Dr J and Moses Malone with his "fo fi fo" prediction and all the good ball that was played.

So Katz comes in, I mean we had Barkley and Mahorn and the "Bump N Thump" team that was pretty cool, but the Sixers hit a brick wall. So Katz had a key draft signing and went with a gangly kid named Shawn Bradley against almost the whole city's wishes. Katz gave him a special jersey with the number 76 and was building a team around this guy...only he couldn't play, he couldn't shoot, and he was soft as hell on the court. At one point they even hired back Moses Malone as a personal coach to try to man up Shawn Bradley and toughen him up, never mind the shooting problems. It didn't work.

So picture a franchise getting a franchise player to build the team around him, and he couldn't play worth a damn. To make it worse, at one point Shawn Bradley literally disappeared from the team - Turned out he was on a religious mission or something and bailed on the team's schedule.

And Katz...I forget the details but there was some kind of a big deal surrounding the team where they needed Katz, and no one could find him or contact him. Turns out he was on a luxury cruise vacation or some sh*t and wasn't taking calls.

That was the Harold Katz Sixers. Eventually Katz left and Bradley got shipped out. Then Iverson came in, and so did Pat Croce as GM.

Croce was a known figure around Philly, he was successful as a motivational kind of guy and also had an exercise or fitness deal going, so he was usually on TV and had a really good way with people. He had also been a personal assistant to Chuck Barris in a previous career...or something, lol.

And Croce literally got the whole city behind the team. he rebuilt a fanbase from literal ashes, and used to do a lot of outreach and public appearances to get fans back on board. He'd be seen standing on busy intersections in Philly handing out Sixers hats and shaking hands, and was really getting the city pumped. It worked.

Enter Iverson, who was a controversial pick but the guy played as tough of a game as I've seen, especially for his size, and would have a way of frustrating the other teams because no matter how much they knocked him around and down on the court, he'd get back up and make them pay for it. A true player, even with all his personal baggage from the past.

They went to the finals, and the playoffs combined with the regular season was the best basketball I have personally seen. I don't think I missed more than a few games that season, it was electric. And the playoffs with teams like the Bucks were the kind of basketball that spoils you forever. As good a game as you'll see, battling odds that people didn't think could be beaten. Unfortunately they lost to the Lakers in the finals, but as a true Philly fan I still say they were robbed by poor officiating and couldn't overcome the coddling of the celebrity players like Shaq and Kobe.

Put it this way...in the finals, there was a scrum under the basket where the two big men Shaq abnd Dikembe Motuombo were fighting for the ball. Shaq literally shoved the ball into Motuombo's face, a deliberate foul, and Dikembe got the foul! That was complete bullshit...but that was the refs coddling the big stars whose jerseys sold and made money.

Another annoyance from that finals...Tyronn Lue. What a pain in the ass. Anyway,  :)

Then Croce was gone, and since then the Sixers have had situations where they were better off losing games to get higher draft picks...and when they got those picks, in some cases they flopped. Imagine a team who once rallied literally the whole region behind them being reduced to deliberately underplaying and losing games to garner draft picks, and ownership that doesn't do anything for the fans or the team's well being except offer cheap seats in package deals that no one bothers with.

Shameful. But that's the state of basketball in Philly with the Sixers. If they get anyone as electric and as ballsy as Iverson in his prime, I'll watch them. But my avoidance of them continues as of the present day.

I paid attention to those Philly teams with Barkley and Mahorn; Mahorn was one of my favorite Pistons, and I was pretty upset that they traded him Minnesota, who in turn traded him to Philly. Later on, I was a big fan of those Iverson teams that were really good because they had Eric Snow as their PG, who played at my favorite college. And I loved the way that Iverson played.

I remember even at the time, the Bradley pick was kinda sketchy. He had only played 1 year of college ball before going on a church mission (if memory serves me correctly); the thing was, it was a hell of a year. He had like 10 blocks in a tournament game (Captain will correct me if I'm wrong), and had like 6 blocks per game, averaged 15 points and 10 boards or something close to that.  I remember the big thing that people said at the time was "you can't teach height". After he left Philly he had some decent years with a couple of teams. He didn't deserve to be number 2 that year, but he wasn't a flat out bust like a lot of people remember.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on February 12, 2017, 04:06:09 PM
Penny hardaway should have been picked second
What a joke..good for him for sticking up for the people


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 04:16:44 PM
Considering the high stakes and Katz giving him the treasured "76" jersey signalling this guy is all that and sliced bread...Bradley was dreadful with the Sixers. Whatever he had going for him, he never put it on the court especially wearing #76 in Philly. The most telling thing was that hiring back of Moses Malone to personally coach him, and that involved getting him to toughen up if he was going to be the big man pulling down the rebounds, never mind his poor shooting. I remember a few seasons after he got sent packing, he played the Sixers and it was almost comical to see him almost trying extra hard to be a tough guy against his former team, throwing elbows and bumping all over the place, like he was trying to be the Tie Domi of the NBA.

I think the fans would have given him a chance, but all he seemed to bring to the team was height. Then Iverson, literally the exact opposite height-wise, came in and played the kind of tough ball that Philly fans adore in any sport. If you get knocked down, if you bleed on the field or the court, but you stay in the game and make that other team pay for it, you'll never pay for a meal or a drink in Philly from that moment on. Just ask the Phillies' Aaron Rowand or Dickie Noles or any of the 70's Flyers bully boys, lol.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 04:20:45 PM
Great to see Eric Snow mentioned, he was a helluva player. It reminded me too of how key their bench was that year they made the finals, especially with Aaron McKie. There were games where everyone would be concerned about how many minutes Iverson was on the court, getting roughed up and banged around 99% of the games that year, but when he had to come out the team had a good bench to cover.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 12, 2017, 04:45:25 PM
Legend has it in Virginia that you can see Iverson at Denny's or Waffle House. :-\ Truly a warrior from a tough background in the rough coastal towns of VA.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 05:17:51 PM
Could you guys keep this conversation to PMs?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 05:23:43 PM
I had that coming.  :)

Just mention the Sixers and it's all over.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 05:28:19 PM
I'll gladly talk 76ers--or any team!--all and every day. Speaking of whom they are truly about to turn the corner. "The process" is about to bear fruit. Ben Simmons is a genius, and Joel Embiid is great. Brett Brown is easily the best coach the team has had since Larry of the same name. I love that team's future.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 05:28:24 PM
All teams go in cycles, all sports, where there are rebuilding years and years of misery followed by wins. I'm in Philly, look at the Phillies...still rebuilding 10 years after a World Series win. But the Sixers...another story altogether. They saw what it takes to win games, and until only the last month or so where they played some good ball, they were in a class with the Washington Generals in terms of fans expecting them to win. Maddening.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 05:29:45 PM
But I do agree, the potential has risen with those names you mentioned. They can have one formidable team if the management plays the right cards and actually builds this team the right way. The pieces are there and waiting.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 12, 2017, 05:32:45 PM
Look at how the team improved drastically after they got Dikembe Motuombo, that one move was as key as the Phillies in '79 basically giving Pete Rose a blank check for him to play in Philly. Next year, 1980 - World Series champs. They needed a big man like Motuombo, they got him, and they made the finals. So much is finding that one key piece to complete the puzzle, and I hope this Sixers organization finds whatever is needed. We need a winning team.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 12, 2017, 05:33:49 PM
Tangentially related to the 76ers, and very relevant in the NBA world, it seems Mason Plumlee, a 2nd rounder, and cash, has been dealt to Denver for Jusuf Nurkic and a 1st rounder. It's relevant in that both Portland and Denver had been mentioned as possible landing spots for Philly's Okafor. This trade would presumably disqualify each? I would guess that means New Orleans or Chicago is the frontrunner for Okafor.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 13, 2017, 05:58:38 AM
Wolves blew out the Bulls.... :o


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 13, 2017, 05:59:39 AM
Rubio was transcendent.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 13, 2017, 06:02:58 AM
Was the Cap decked out in fangear? ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on February 13, 2017, 04:12:27 PM
All teams go in cycles, all sports, where there are rebuilding years and years of misery followed by wins. I'm in Philly, look at the Phillies...still rebuilding 10 years after a World Series win. But the Sixers...another story altogether. They saw what it takes to win games, and until only the last month or so where they played some good ball, they were in a class with the Washington Generals in terms of fans expecting them to win. Maddening.
Very true in most sports cities, but you had me at the same class as the generals  ;D
"When will we just change the name of 25 of the 30 teams to the Washington Generals?" Dan Gilbert to david stern back in 2011

Cavs traded chris andersen to CHA for second round pick and an open roster spot and CHA waived him. Atleast the carmelo talks have died down in local media no way cavs were giving up love yet, i love NY media they write the most absurd stuff like "lebron wants melo at expense of love and irving" :lol. NY media has had a hard on for lebron and Irving since they were both drafted cuz its Cleveland

On a bright note captain the wolves are better than the Lakers


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 13, 2017, 04:26:57 PM
Honestly the Wolves should be far better than the Lakers this season. But LA got off to a good start and of course the Wolves did the opposite. And it doesn't help that LaVine is out for the year. But they're playing somewhat better, and the Lakers have leveled off.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 14, 2017, 08:50:52 AM
Orlando sent Serge Ibaka to Toronto for Terrence Ross and a 2017 1st rounder.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 14, 2017, 08:51:32 AM
Lets talk about this year's league with my bulls with alpha male Rondo and Wade leading the way to disaster! :-\
Yeah...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 14, 2017, 02:13:10 PM
Memories.....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kirk-Hinrich-Ben-Gordon-Chicago-Bulls-Poster-16-X-20-Glossy-Posterboard-NBA-2005-/262821052237?hash=item3d315aff4d:g:T58AAOSwDk5TwiZl


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on February 14, 2017, 05:03:24 PM
I see the MJ #12 jersey is for sale at the bulls website

Cavs at wolves tonight


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 17, 2017, 08:09:53 AM
Bulls win! ;)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 17, 2017, 08:19:59 AM
Getting Jimmy Butler back on the court can work wonders...

While I don't expect a blockbuster, I think the Bulls could be interesting as we approach the trade deadline. Just checking last night's box reminds me how little sense this team makes. You've got Butler playing 40 minutes and taking 20 shots, you've got Robin Lopez, Rajon Rondo, Taj Gibson in still-key roles ... but then you're starting MCW and Jerian Grant? You're heavily relying on Bobby Portis and Cristiano Felicio, and even getting Denzel Valentine in there? It's like two mini-teams make the roster. If it were me, I'd either try to get a more competitive roster that's, say, 2/3 or 3/4 prime-career guys, or try to get a more up-and-coming roster that's the opposite of that, 2/3 to 3/4 young and talented with a few vets there for stability and good examples. But this, it's just neither one. They aren't good now, they don't look like they'll be good later, and nobody's happy.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 17, 2017, 08:23:41 AM
It's the hell the 76ers were in before Sam Hinkie and the process. I want the Bulls to have a top to down rebuild under new management that doesn't attack coaches and spies on players. Though I will pass on Hinkie...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 17, 2017, 08:49:53 AM
I have given a ton of thought to what a middling team can and should do ... and so far I've come up with "I dunno, it depends." It depends on where they've been, what they've got in the pipeline, who's leading in the front office, who's leading on the sidelines, who are the best players, who are the best talents.

The 76ers before Hinkie were mostly a young veteran team prior to Hinkie. In Doug Collins's last season in charge, they were led by Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, and Nick Young--all 5-year vets at the time--as well as 11-year vet Jason Richardson. The challenge there wasn't so much a dual-roster, but a somewhat unified roster that couldn't get substantially better: nobody was, and nobody was going to become, a true #1 option, a true star. So they really did have to ask the question of whether they were better off competing for a bottom-four seed every year or swinging for the fences (which can only really be done with high picks which requires full tanking). We know which direction they went.

The Bulls aren't in that position because their roster doesn't have that same issue: they have two rosters, almost, as I said before. But more than that, they have a front-office chosen head coach who favors a style that clashes with two of its major free agent acquisitions (Rondo and Wade). They have a roster heavy on power forwards and point guards without a standout at either spot. And they have a front office that nobody on the roster trusts, based on the past few weeks' reporting, anyway. But they do have a true star, a guy who is legitimately in that top 10 or 15 overall in the league, and who might be the best shooting guard in basketball. Butler is way better than anyone Philly had at the end of the Doug Collins era.

What they share is the general position / end result: they are currently in that middling, about .500 range.

The question is, can the Bulls get better without getting substantially worse? And if they do have to / choose to get substantially worse, will the fan base tolerate it, yet another full rebuild, especially considering the debacle of the late 90s through the drafting of Derrick Rose, basically? I would have said yes, they for sure could get better without getting worse ... but then they spent the money they spent this offseason. And that did not help. Even though I believe there is a legit chance to be rid of both this offseason, have they done more damage to the guys they already have by wasting the year? And can they make decisions elsewhere that help Hoiberg (or replace Hoiberg)?

Player development from this regime has been bad. Mirotic, Portis, McDermott...are they getting much better than where they were a couple years ago? Drafting has been questionable.

I don't know. I think the team could probably make something happen, maybe even without moving Butler. But I don't have any faith in this front office to get it done.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 17, 2017, 09:32:29 AM
Good point Captain about the solid mediocre team that Philly has before the process. I think the Bulls should need a solid vet coach who can get the most out of the team "cough Scott Skiles" to sort out this mess. Hoilburg is too much a meek college coach in this organizational mess. A vet like Skiles could get the disgruntled vets off the team and see what we have in the young players.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 17, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
Ooooh now we disagree. I think Skiles was overrated as a coach for a while, and has proved in recent years that he's not good. The tough guy approach in general doesn't work anymore--college or pro--in my opinion. And his teams' defenses haven't lived up to his reputation in that respect. I think he more seemed like a good coach (feisty ex-player who overachieved) than was a good coach.

You know who I'd hire if I had a shot? Ettore Messina, assistant in San Antonio, former LAL assistant, and former champion in numerous countries overseas. Brilliant basketball mind and I think he's got the overall philosophy along the lines of Pop where he just knows how to do things.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 17, 2017, 09:46:24 AM
Maybe I am biased since he got the Bulls to playoffs in 2004-2005 season after starting 0-9. He always got the most out of Gordon, Hinrich, and Deng. But then again they never went anywhere in the playoffs....  I don't keep up with the assistant coaches like I should, is Messina the heir to Pop once he retires?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 17, 2017, 10:46:00 AM
Your review of Thibs first season?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 17, 2017, 10:55:59 AM
Maybe I am biased since he got the Bulls to playoffs in 2004-2005 season after starting 0-9. He always got the most out of Gordon, Hinrich, and Deng. But then again they never went anywhere in the playoffs....  I don't keep up with the assistant coaches like I should, is Messina the heir to Pop once he retires?

He could be, though he might also get a head job before that happens. He was reportedly in the running for LAL when Mike Brown got it (Messina joined the staff there at that time) and for Brooklyn this past offseason when Kenny Atkinson got it (Prokorov was Messina's boss at CSKA Moscow). He has been a 4x Euroleague winner, not to mention probably around 10 domestic league titles between his jobs at top clubs in Italy (Virtus Bologna, Bennetton Treviso), Russia (CSKA), and Spain (Real Madrid). He also spent time in the 80s with Dean Smith during summers, doing a lot of clinics both here and in Europe.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 17, 2017, 10:59:43 AM
Your review of Thibs first season?

Decent. The team is getting better. Wiggins, in particular, is finally beginning to a) make big shots in the 4th quarter, not just scoring 20 in the first three and then disappearing, and b) doing other things, though his defense still should be a lot better than it is. KAT is beginning to be a two-way stud in spots, too, though he has a ways to go as well. He has really found a way to get Muhammad playing well, also, after a rocky start.

But they have a long way to go. Unfortunately, the rough start to the season seemed inevitable when Rubio got hurt in game 3 or something, and now with LaVine out, that's a huge loss. Brandon Rush was a great high school prospect, a good college player, but his best pro days seem behind him ... and they weren't all that good. He has been at best a role player, and he's barely filling that role now (despite being a starter for us at the moment). He isn't really hitting shots, which is his forte, and his defense is really pretty uneven--especially for someone who had a rep as a decent defender. If they make a deadline deal to chase that 8 seed, that off guard spot is probably where it ought to be.

But overall, while the team is a little worse than I'd have expected, they're going the right direction. I was thinking 38-44 wins, and we're on pace for about 31, with 35 seemingly the ceiling barring a magical burst.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 17, 2017, 11:45:40 AM
Maybe I am biased since he got the Bulls to playoffs in 2004-2005 season after starting 0-9. He always got the most out of Gordon, Hinrich, and Deng. But then again they never went anywhere in the playoffs....  I don't keep up with the assistant coaches like I should, is Messina the heir to Pop once he retires?

He could be, though he might also get a head job before that happens. He was reportedly in the running for LAL when Mike Brown got it (Messina joined the staff there at that time) and for Brooklyn this past offseason when Kenny Atkinson got it (Prokorov was Messina's boss at CSKA Moscow). He has been a 4x Euroleague winner, not to mention probably around 10 domestic league titles between his jobs at top clubs in Italy (Virtus Bologna, Bennetton Treviso), Russia (CSKA), and Spain (Real Madrid). He also spent time in the 80s with Dean Smith during summers, doing a lot of clinics both here and in Europe.
Too accomplished for Gar-Pax, they only want nobody coaches that don't question them. The ones that did were physically beat up (vinny del negro) or left despite creating a franchise turn-around (thibs).

Hopefully the Wolves get at least 35 wins and create some buzz for Thibs making your franchise winners instead of a young talent pool for other teams under David Kahn.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on February 18, 2017, 03:40:06 AM
Getting Jimmy Butler back on the court can work wonders...

While I don't expect a blockbuster, I think the Bulls could be interesting as we approach the trade deadline. Just checking last night's box reminds me how little sense this team makes. You've got Butler playing 40 minutes and taking 20 shots, you've got Robin Lopez, Rajon Rondo, Taj Gibson in still-key roles ... but then you're starting MCW and Jerian Grant? You're heavily relying on Bobby Portis and Cristiano Felicio, and even getting Denzel Valentine in there? It's like two mini-teams make the roster. If it were me, I'd either try to get a more competitive roster that's, say, 2/3 or 3/4 prime-career guys, or try to get a more up-and-coming roster that's the opposite of that, 2/3 to 3/4 young and talented with a few vets there for stability and good examples. But this, it's just neither one. They aren't good now, they don't look like they'll be good later, and nobody's happy.

Do you know how unhappy it makes me that Denzel got drafted by this team? It would've been nice to see him go to an organization that knows what the hell it's doing.

Here's something interesting, though; recently, Valentine was interviewed and asked about how his first year was going. And the guy that he kept mentioning was Rondo. Rondo was the first guy in the gym, Rondo was a lot of help giving him advice. Rondo seems to get the brunt of the hate, yet here's a rookie (unprompted) talking about what a great teammate he is.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 18, 2017, 06:32:47 AM
I've read that about Rondo, too: that as petulant as he can be toward coaches or officials, he is considered a great teammate and has been at every stop. Go figure! I still wouldn't want him, honestly, even at vet minimum salary, just because he has been so distrustful of coaches, so insistent on running things his way, and most of all, being so opposed to shooting the fricking ball! (When he's in a mood, he makes Rubio look like Steph Curry.)

The Reggie Jackson trade rumors have heated up again. What the heck is going on in Detroit with him? But let me say definitively, even though I think Jackson is good, I do not want to deal for him, and especially not if it means moving Rubio.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on February 18, 2017, 01:01:48 PM
I've read that about Rondo, too: that as petulant as he can be toward coaches or officials, he is considered a great teammate and has been at every stop. Go figure! I still wouldn't want him, honestly, even at vet minimum salary, just because he has been so distrustful of coaches, so insistent on running things his way, and most of all, being so opposed to shooting the fricking ball! (When he's in a mood, he makes Rubio look like Steph Curry.)

The Reggie Jackson trade rumors have heated up again. What the heck is going on in Detroit with him? But let me say definitively, even though I think Jackson is good, I do not want to deal for him, and especially not if it means moving Rubio.

I have heard the Jackson for Rubio swap for a while. It comes up, goes away, and then comes back.
I'd guess that Jackson is going to be gone by next week. I think if they got an offer for Drummond that blew them away they'd take it, but that doesn't look like it's happening; they'd probably get more for Jackson. Jackson isn't driving to the rim as much as last year, and I don't know if it's because he can't or he doesn't want to.  They're better off running things with Ish Smith.

Well, time for the MSU/Purdue game! Swanigan will probably eat us up again.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on February 18, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Wiggins is gonna be huge just wait captain
 


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 18, 2017, 02:34:11 PM
I hope so. But so far, he has been a really good (increasingly good) scorer ... mostly when it doesn't matter, unfortunately. He really tends to score a lot in the first 40 minutes of a basketball game, but late--especially at the line--he either doesn't take, or doesn't make, shots. He has hit a few nice late-game shots lately, which is of course great. But that's a few games. Overall I'd say his late-game, alpha mentality is third on the team after LaVine and Towns.

What is annoying is that he was a guy touted as a real stopper on the wing, and he obviously has that ability. But he's not that guy at all. The number of mediocre wings I've watched get easy buckets this year, I mean DAMNIT. And then he doesn't get many boards despite being a 6-8 athletic wing, and he doesn't get that many assists despite being a guy put in a million playmaking opportunities each night. I mean come on.

So ... I hope he fulfills his potential. But he has a long, long way to go (because his potential is immense).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 19, 2017, 03:13:04 PM
For the Cap....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-CHAMPION-MINNESOTA-TIMBERWOLVES-KEVIN-GARNETT-21-JERSEY-MENS-SIZE-40-/322406436185?hash=item4b10ebcd59:g:jS4AAOSw241YjiDt#viTabs_0


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 20, 2017, 05:35:29 AM
Poor New Orleans...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 21, 2017, 07:09:17 AM
Boogie Nights? ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 21, 2017, 07:25:26 AM
I heard someone (Bill Simmons?) say "Boogie and the 'brow."

Honestly I don't know what to make of this trade. Contrary to popular opinion, I think Sacramento got the better of it. Not in talent--not by a long shot--but just getting out from under the Cousins Curse was smart. They were about to hand him well over $200 million dollars, and he's a guy who fights with coaches, teammates, opponents, gets kicked out of games, refuses to get/stay in shape, won't run the court, and won't defend. Oh, but he's great in the community. Lovely. That's worth $200 million from a basketball team: community service from a guy who refuses to promote his community service via the team. Nice? Sure. But nearly useless for a basketball team. Cousins is no longer young, exactly. His act has worn very, very thin. And if you can name me half a dozen guys in NBA history who 1) were tremendous talents, 2) spent half a dozen or so years with horrible attitude problems and an inability to sniff the playoffs, but then c) turned it around in their late 20s somehow to become model citizens on and off the court, well, if you can name those guys, I'll give you $100. Zach Randolph is the best example I have been able to think of, but after that it's a pretty short fucking list. Boogie Cousins ought to be ashamed of himself. And Vivek Ranadive ought to be doubly ashamed of his dumbass self.

But that said, having gotten out from under the weight (literally! Ha!) of Cousins, that's a good move. Even though it netted them damn near nothing. Evans is expiring and injury prone. Galloway is at best a fringe rotation player. The picks are not impressive. And Hield is developing ... into what? Maybe a starter? Probably not much more than that.

On the New Orleans side, I guess Dell Demps had nothing to lose, since his ass was on the line regardless. If they make the playoffs, he has a job for now and has to figure out how to build a team going forward around Davis-Cousins-maybe Holiday with no cap space to speak of. If they don't, he's fired anyway and it's somebody else's problem.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 21, 2017, 07:29:35 AM
Cousins and that organization in Sac. were match made in hell. A malcontent player as the only "star" on a smaller market franchise that nearly moved away before the NBA forced the team to a nobody owner who thought he knew the game after coaching preteen girls.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 21, 2017, 07:33:36 AM
The only good news for the Kings is that now they have no serious money committed anywhere: they basically get a do-over. And while they don't have tons of assets in terms of young talent and picks, they do have a few things to work with. They should have their own picks and New Orleans's picks this year, as well as the still-not-dead Ben McLemore, Skal Labissiere, Malachi Richardson, and the big rookie center whose name I forget (Papagiannis or whatever). Theoretically something good could come of it--especially if Ranadive gets the f*** out of the way and lets professionals (and Vlade) do their jobs.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 21, 2017, 07:46:00 AM
Agreed, though you should convince Ranadive to hire you to be the GM!  ;)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 21, 2017, 07:52:30 AM
I'd be as happy to work for Ranadive as I'd be to coach Cousins.

But I'll tell you this, if I ever won the lottery, I'd buy a team. I don't even need an NBA team. I'd move to Croatia and buy KK Zagreb or something. I worked as an intern during college for the St. Paul SLAM! (yes, that was their name, caps and exclamation and all), a VERY-minor-league team in our fine state's capital. That, an unpaid gig, was the greatest job ever. The owner was rich, so prior to establishing a real office, we all just worked in his mansion talking basketball all the time. My real job was PR and media stuff, but once the coaching staff knew I had reasonable basketball knowledge, I got to participate in actual conversations about players. Not as a decision-maker or anything, but just another ideas guy, someone to ask as we scoured the universe for potential players. (I mean literally, the way guys came and went to other minor leagues, overseas, etc., we were constantly just trying to think of who existed on earth who could fit Need X.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 21, 2017, 07:57:29 AM
Nice, that is cool you actually worked in the minors of basketball. Could you expand the team's Wikipedia page?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Paul_Slam!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 21, 2017, 07:58:42 AM
Hang on, about to hop on a conference call. (Stupid work always interrupts.) After that, while I will not be contributing to the Wiki page, I may think of a tale or two.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 21, 2017, 08:03:30 AM
Conference call with Ranadive? ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on February 21, 2017, 08:34:14 AM
That internship sounds like a blast, Captain. So, if you had the Wolves' ear, what would you have to say about this Rubio/Rose swap with NY? The way I hear it, the Wolves approached the Knicks about Rose. I, for one, would love to get Rubio! I have a feeling you're hoping this rumor is unfounded? My hope for the Knicks has finally evaporated, so I doubt we'll get Rubio or move Melo.

I agree about Cousins. Not worth the hassle. Addition by subtraction. It's not like they've won anything with him... It is interesting that the Pelicans now have both Anthony Davis and Cousins on the same roster. I am curious to see how that unfolds. Will they stay long-term?

I haven't been participating in this thread lately because after watching nearly every minute of the Knicks first 29 games, I haven't watched a minute of the past 28. It's odd for me to lose interest like that, but could my timing have been better? The Knicks started out 16-13, only to go 7-21 since. Pathetic situation. I'm just interested in Melo trade rumors at this point. I foresee him being moved this summer, although if there's any sign of Jackson being on his way out, then I could see Melo waiting him out.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 21, 2017, 08:52:23 AM
If there is truth to the Rubio-Rose swap, I will be one unhappy man.

Despite being a HUGE fan of his since he was 14 years old, I will admit that he had a very, very rough start to the season. But if you just look at him since the new year (though he actually started playing well a week or two before that), Rubio has been playing inspired basketball. More specifically, about 10 ppg on 40% FG and 88% FT, 10 apg, about 3.4 rpg. He gets a steal or two a game. He plays really good defense. And most of all, his leadership on the court is just phenomenal: if you don't watch the games, you can't understand this. But his bad shooting is--as long as he is confident and TAKES open shots, even if he misses--overshadowed by that leadership. He makes things so easy for Wiggins, Towns, LaVine, Dieng, Muhammad, etc. I have rarely seen as good a leader and teammate on the court, and I have watched a LOT of basketball in my life.

Right now, Kris Dunn isn't just not better, he's not half as good. I like Kris Dunn as a talent, but he's not even as good as Tyus Jones right now.

Conversely, I do understand that the team is invested in Dunn. They didn't use a top 5 pick to draft a long-term backup. And Rubio has been playing so well that (after the exact opposite situation to start the season), his value may not go higher than it is now as long as he's on this team (with a franchise-selected replacement on the roster, etc.).

But for Rose? Mostly irrelevant for this season, since we're not making the playoffs anyway. (If we were to re-sign Rose, I'd quit being a fan. That's it.) But that means next year we're committed to a pair of guys who have not proven themselves to be better than backup quality, and in Dunn's case, just barely that. So I would sure hope Thibs knows more than I do. (OK, obviously he does, so that was stupid to say.) I would also expect we get something more than just Derek Rose out of such a trade, considering we'd be giving up a guy locked up for a couple years for a couple-month rental of a broken-down Rose.

New Yorkers would love Rubio. Anthony and Porzingis would love Rubio. Brandon Jennings had a feud with Rubio back when the former was in Italy and the latter was in Spain, so there is some fun there! I can't recall the last time the Knicks had as good a passer as Rubio. David Lee was a really clever passer from the PF spot. Jason Kidd really didn't play his creative passing game anymore by the time he got there. You might have to go back to Mark Jackson in the late '80s.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 21, 2017, 09:14:06 AM
I'm not sure what it says about me, but one of my favorite guys from the Slam--I just can't type SLAM! in good conscience--was the talented, troubled combo guard Lenny Holly, who had been a highly regarded high school player before going to a JuCo, Texas Tech, and Arizona State. I think he actually declared early, too, though I'm not sure of that. Anyway, I was thrilled that a guy of that talent landed on the Slam. Well, things didn't end well for Lenny.  He's doing time for murder, tampering with evidence, and racketeering. Whoops. (The story incorrectly states his minor league team as the New Mexico Slam.)

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=1721732

I guess it's telling that Lloyd Daniels is one of my favorite players of all time, though...

Another Slam notable? How about Bo Kimble! When the losses began to pile up and the team wanted more outside shooting, they made the somewhat dramatic (by IBL standards) moves to sign the former Clippers lottery pick and Loyola Marymount star. Talk about your stock taking a hit! Only about seven years from being a lottery pick, he was not even in a foreign or minor league, but a MINOR minor league.

Our other higher profile players throughout that first season included point guards Porter Roberts (Purdue) and Frank Seckar (Vanderbilt); combos Holly and Melvin Newbern (Minnesota); wings Kimble, Nate Tubbs (Minnesota), Randy Rutherford (Oklahome State), Vaughn Jones (George Washington); and bigs Will Cunningham (Temple) and Sammie Haley (Missouri). Some of our better players weren't the major-college guys, though. James Walker, I think of South Florida (?), was like a poor man's Barkley at this level. He was about 6'6" but just powerful as hell, and a hard worker. You could tell the guy was trying to make a living. [First name?] Myers was about 6-9 and could really shoot, a stretch 4 back when nobody wanted them. There was another off-guard whose name I'm ashamed to say I have totally forgotten who was the prototypical minor league lifer: maybe about 6-2, 6-3, but a wing player in his game. It was effective as hell, he could do everything as a scorer. But what kind of future do you have if you're like 26 years old, 6-2 or 6-3, and can't play the point?

The biggest issue the team had in my opinion was that the league wasn't a minor league trying to develop talent for the big leagues; it was a minor league trying to sell tickets. So often, the younger, more promising prospects I was so enamored with at the time were passed over or thrown aside for guys with local ties who might sell tickets, or lifers who could win (meaningless) games. But it was so much fun. And quite an education.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 21, 2017, 09:16:25 AM
By the way, somewhere I believe I've got a folder--literally a paper one, I mean--full of assorted old bios, stories, clippings, stats, etc., of the Slam. If I can find it, perhaps I'll have something interesting to say. Otherwise, suffice to say it was a basketball geek's dream job (and sheer boredom to any normal person).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 21, 2017, 09:42:31 AM
That is quite the minor league story with those troubled vets and young nobody players in a tiny league. What was the owner like and why did the team fold?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 21, 2017, 10:40:18 AM
What was the owner like and why did the team fold?

The owner was mostly hands-off, from what I recall (other than letting us work out of his turn-of-the-century mansion). He was outspending other teams in terms of salary in that first year, I'm sure: I know those names I listed might not look like much, but most teams had 0-2 "power five" conference players, tops. At any given time, we may have had six, seven. And we rotated through guys quickly, trying to find the right ones. But the lack of consistency really killed any chance at winning, talent or no talent.

The team didn't fold, exactly, but it did move to Rochester, Minn., where I believe it might have become a CBA team before eventually closing up shop. The worst thing was that Rochester team had two of my favorite players of the era, Syracuse's point guard Lazarus Sims and Fresno State's power forward Winfred Walton (who was a BRILLIANT talent ... Mr. Verlander might remember him, if he's old enough, as Walton was a superstar out of Michigan).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 21, 2017, 10:49:59 AM
Holy sh*t! Magic made quick work of his coup since being hired as a consultant last week.

Quote
The Los Angeles Lakers have shaken up their front office, promoting team legend Magic Johnson to president of basketball operations and firing general manager Mitch Kupchak and vice president of basketball operations Jim Buss.

"Today I took a series of actions I believe will return the Lakers to the heights Dr. Jerry Buss demanded and our fans rightly expect," team governor Jeanie Buss said in a statement. "Effective immediately, Earvin Johnson will be in charge of all basketball operations and will report directly to me. Our search for a new General Manager to work with Earvin and Coach Luke Walton is well underway and we hope to announce a new General Manager in short order. Together, Earvin, Luke and our new General Manager will establish the foundation for the next generation of Los Angeles Lakers greatness."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18734012/los-angeles-lakers-put-magic-johnson-charge-fire-mitch-kupchak-jim-buss


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 23, 2017, 09:39:53 AM
2nd best holiday of the year (after draft day)!

Philly and Dallas kicked it off, who's next. Word is wolves are determined to move Baz and are still shopping Rubio.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 23, 2017, 11:48:22 AM
Got your popcorn out at the office? ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 23, 2017, 12:30:00 PM
No but I had the Vertical's live stream to keep up on any Woj bombs. Sadly a quiet deadline.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 23, 2017, 12:55:27 PM
*yawn* Celtics dropped the ball....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 23, 2017, 12:59:43 PM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18750420/chicago-bulls-trade-taj-gibson-doug-mcdermott-oklahoma-city-thunder

Damn shame the Bulls couldn't develop these guys...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 23, 2017, 02:52:46 PM
Re the Celtics, I don't think they dropped the ball ... they just made life boring for us. (That Brooklyn pick could be the #1, but even if it's top 3, it's really good.)

As for the Bulls, wow. I mean, Payne has occasionally looked OK, but he's mostly just been hurt. Morrow can shoot, but he's worse and older than McDermott. And Lauvergne is promising, but the Bulls already have a glut of young PFs even with Gibson gone. Somehow I doubt Jimmy Butler is feeling placated.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 24, 2017, 08:47:00 AM
I'll gladly talk 76ers--or any team!--all and every day. Speaking of whom they are truly about to turn the corner. "The process" is about to bear fruit. Ben Simmons is a genius, and Joel Embiid is great. Brett Brown is easily the best coach the team has had since Larry of the same name. I love that team's future.



Just announced that Ben Simmons is out for the season. I saw this article with the pathetic stat how this is the 5th straight season a key player has missed the season for the Sixers.

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/2/24/14725984/ben-simmons-injury-76ers-history-joel-embiid-nerlens-noel-andrew-bynum (http://www.sbnation.com/2017/2/24/14725984/ben-simmons-injury-76ers-history-joel-embiid-nerlens-noel-andrew-bynum)

It is either the bad luck of some teams, or something else, but so much of winning and building a winning team in any sport is having your key players available to play.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 24, 2017, 09:04:38 AM
I wonder whether the "setback" was truly legitimate or an overabundance of caution. I understand them being cautious with him, but I'd like to have seen him get his feet wet, anyway, if possible.

That said, the team seems at least finally on its way to respectability ... though I worry a lot about Embiid. As brilliant a player as he's been, big men with injury problems--especially leg and foot injury problems--very rarely become every-day, full-minutes players again. Whether we're talking Sam Bowie, Arvydas Sabonis, Yao Ming, Greg Oden, or Andrew Bynum, the trend is the same. The sad reality seems to be that people who are 6-10 or more, who are 275 pounds or more, just aren't typically built to be running, cutting, an jumping so much. Once something tears or breaks, especially, the stress seems to be too much.

The best recovery example I can think of is Zydrunas Ilgauskas, who had terrible issues prior to being drafted but eventually was able not only to play, but play pretty solid minutes for a nice, long career. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another big man who had serious injuries to his feet or knees and recovered to have a full career.

However, between Embiid and Okafor, they do seem at least to be covered (for the time being). And for what it's worth, if it ends up being Okafor who can play, at least he'll be made much better by Simmons, who is a genius passing the ball.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on February 24, 2017, 09:20:01 AM
It's true. But that article was a jolt to look back on a team that has had 5 straight years of this same misfortune, and for the fans to deal with this year after year is perhaps why there is such a pessimistic outlook on the Sixers in Philly. It seems even when they do get the right pieces, or even players who can contribute and help in some way, this pattern of the last 5 years steps in to put the kibosh on those hopes for the forthcoming seasons. One time it actually did work out to some extent was when Speedy Claxton went down when the Sixers made their run to the finals, but that team was one of those special teams with or without Speedy, and he never gelled as a key player in the lineup anyway (IMO).

It is just a shame to see someone like Simmons who truly brings the skills needed to the team to go down with a foot injury, and the Philly fans are left yet again watching helplessly as a big hope for the success of the team is on the bench wearing street clothes instead of suiting up to play.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 24, 2017, 09:28:41 AM
Zydrunas Ilgauskas, my favorite Lebron sidekick!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 24, 2017, 09:34:53 AM
GF2002 - I want to be sympathetic--I really do!--but as a fan of the Wolves since their inception, it's awfully hard to pity anyone else their team's misery. My franchise has only once made it out of the first round, and hasn't made the playoffs since the year we made the conference finals (12 or 13 years ago now).

SB - what, no love for Sasha Pavlovic? (Granted, I'm a Serbophile ... or more accurately, a Former Yugophile.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 24, 2017, 09:51:09 AM
What about Carlos "I tricked the owner" Boozer or Luke Jackson...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 24, 2017, 09:53:43 AM
I loved Luke Jackson as a pro prospect! (That Oregon team with Luke Ridnour and Fred Jones was really good.) He was a nice shooter, a decent athlete, good size ... I have no idea why he didn't pan out.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 24, 2017, 09:55:46 AM
I can't say the same about Robert Swift, what sad story about him going pro too early and ending up homeless.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 24, 2017, 10:00:46 AM
No question. While we have Lebron, KG, McGrady, Kobe, Jermaine O'Neal, and even down to the Monta Ellis, Al Jefferson, Lou Williams types on one hand, there is the sad other end of the spectrum with HS-to-pro guys. Swift definitely falls down there with Korleone Young, Leon Smith, and others as the unfortunate ones.

That said, I'd actually undo the ban of high schoolers. I think the NBA should allow any otherwise eligible adult who wants to enter into a contract with a team--assuming the feeling is mutual, of course--to be allowed into the league. The NCAA, if it were smart, would be the side instituting any restrictions, as its their product that gets hurt by early entrants. However, I'm not entirely sure how they could, in that by definition, the early entrants are leaving the NCAA. (What are you going to do, declare somebody who declares for the draft ineligible? Who cares?)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 24, 2017, 11:17:16 AM
Zydrunas Ilgauskas, my favorite Lebron sidekick!
Surfrapgrungefiend, where you at?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Authentic-Zydrunas-Ilgauskas-HWC-Soul-Swingman-NBA-Cavs-Jersey-S-36-Lebron-/252662187004?hash=item3ad3d703fc:g:LJYAAOSwM4xXawDj


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: Mr. Verlander on February 25, 2017, 04:09:50 AM
Holy sh*t! Magic made quick work of his coup since being hired as a consultant last week.

Quote
The Los Angeles Lakers have shaken up their front office, promoting team legend Magic Johnson to president of basketball operations and firing general manager Mitch Kupchak and vice president of basketball operations Jim Buss.

"Today I took a series of actions I believe will return the Lakers to the heights Dr. Jerry Buss demanded and our fans rightly expect," team governor Jeanie Buss said in a statement. "Effective immediately, Earvin Johnson will be in charge of all basketball operations and will report directly to me. Our search for a new General Manager to work with Earvin and Coach Luke Walton is well underway and we hope to announce a new General Manager in short order. Together, Earvin, Luke and our new General Manager will establish the foundation for the next generation of Los Angeles Lakers greatness."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18734012/los-angeles-lakers-put-magic-johnson-charge-fire-mitch-kupchak-jim-buss

Next, they'll be bringing in Kobe, Jerry West, and Phil Jackson (after he leaves NY, because he's been a clown show since he's been there).

I kinda though a Jackson/Rubio swap would happen; I never realized how much Rubio has fallen out of favor with Thibs (at least that's all I heard for the last week). Detroit was asking a lot for him though, something like a first rounder, a good young player, and an expiring contract. And of course the report that Sacramento didn't agree to a decent Drummond/Cousins trade...which proves that the Kings are a sh*t show, especially considering what they got for Cousins instead. Vlade's not only a flopper on the court, but he's a flop as an executive. I'd take Cousins and build around him; Detroit would move right up to the upper tier automatically.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: NOLA BB Fan on February 25, 2017, 09:09:03 AM
Granted, this is not 2017, but 40 years ago today.
I was at the Superdome on the night of February 25, 1977, when Pete Maravich put on a clinic against the New York Knicks.
68 points, when there was no 3 point shot in the NBA yet.

If interested here's a link to see him at work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kDYqngdd7E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kDYqngdd7E)

Note: the video quality is terrible, but it's a minor miracle that there's any video of this at all, as most NBA teams at the time didn't televise all their road games, much less any home games.  The Jazz, for example, didn't televise any home games and only a handful of road games.  For this video it's fortunate that this was against the Knicks, which did televise their road games. I remember seeing their cameras at their games here.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 25, 2017, 09:22:44 AM
That's great that you got to see the Pistol live! He was always an object of fascination for me: his dazzling skills; his seeming inability to lead a winning team; his interesting back-story, relationship to his dad, training as a kid, etc. He truly was one of the most skilled players of all time--there's no doubt about it. Ball-handling, passing, shooting, he could do any of it.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on February 26, 2017, 02:32:50 PM
Granted, this is not 2017, but 40 years ago today.
I was at the Superdome on the night of February 25, 1977, when Pete Maravich put on a clinic against the New York Knicks.
68 points, when there was no 3 point shot in the NBA yet.

If interested here's a link to see him at work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kDYqngdd7E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kDYqngdd7E)

Note: the video quality is terrible, but it's a minor miracle that there's any video of this at all, as most NBA teams at the time didn't televise all their road games, much less any home games.  The Jazz, for example, didn't televise any home games and only a handful of road games.  For this video it's fortunate that this was against the Knicks, which did televise their road games. I remember seeing their cameras at their games here.
Cool! My dad saw him in Cleveland around that same time.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on February 27, 2017, 06:08:18 AM
NYK waive Brandon Jennings.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 01, 2017, 03:27:31 AM
Seems like the warriors and cavs have turned the NBA into a two team league with them taking all the veteran players..... ::)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 01, 2017, 04:31:19 AM
Were you clamoring for Jose Calderon or Andrew Bogut? The Heat and Celtics did the same thing in their heydays...and it didn't always work.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 01, 2017, 04:41:47 AM
True that, just frustrated that the parity of the league seems low these days. Though KD is injured and Matt Barnes was signed....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 01, 2017, 05:21:06 AM
It's just the way the league works. Contending teams don't want to f*** around with 20-year-old projects, so they inevitably stock up on available vets who, conveniently enough, tend to be chasing championships as opposed to being interested in fucking around with teams working on the aforementioned 20-year-old projects. But sometimes teams try it and just end up older. The Heat really struggled by overdoing it at times, for example.

Real shame about KD. Still the favorite in the west, I'd think, though.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 01, 2017, 05:44:51 AM
Quite the different warriors franchise for Barnes...,


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 01, 2017, 06:11:17 AM
Cool throwback jersey https://www.mitchellandness.com/1995-96-authentic-jersey-kevin-garnett-minnesota-timberwolves-316-7226


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 01, 2017, 06:19:56 AM
Quite the different warriors franchise for Barnes...,

I'm not a Barnes fan at all and hate to imagine the headaches a combination of him and Draymond might cause the team.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 01, 2017, 06:21:43 AM
Rock-em, sock-em robots?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 01, 2017, 12:45:39 PM
Joel Embiid, officially out for the year. Hopefully it's not actually any serious hint as to the severity of his injury issues, but rather a) an overabundance of caution; b) The Process continues!; and/or c) an effort to really boost Okafor's trade value before the draft so they can solve that problem this offseason.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 01, 2017, 12:53:31 PM
You never know with philly....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 01, 2017, 12:58:50 PM
So ... is Dario Saric going to end up ROY? His season averages are just about 11 ppg and 6 rpg, but he has been improving all season. In February's dozen or so games, he averaged 17 ppg, 7.9 rpg and 2.8 apg. His shooting percentage from the floor is OK (44%) and the line is good (78%), though not really so much from 3 (25%). He would figure prominently in these final two dozen games, one would think, so those averages could climb.

It has been such a bad rookie class overall in terms of immediate production, and especially with Embiid's season done with only 31 games played, it's hard to give him the award.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 01, 2017, 01:00:23 PM
Yikes, slim pickings for sure. Your choice if you could vote?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 01, 2017, 01:10:21 PM
To say nothing of future prospects--which is an entirely different situation--and if Embiid is indeed out of the picture, there are really only two candidates left: Saric and Malcolm Brogdon of Milwaukee. Brogdon is playing for a better team, so in a way that might mean more. He has really stepped in and produced at a reasonably high level.

For long-term prospects, I think plenty of the guys in this class will be just fine. The aforementioned three, of course, but I think we'll see good careers out of Dragan Bender, Kris Dunn, Jamaal Murray, Buddy Hield, both Hernangomez brothers, Brandon Ingram, Nicolo Brussino, Alex Abrines, Caris LeVert, Thon Maker, Wade Baldwin, Dejounte Murray ... I think there will be a good stockpile of role players/rotation players. But not a lot of stars, and this season at least has not been impressive.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 01, 2017, 01:11:54 PM
I will take Brogdon.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 02, 2017, 06:03:13 AM
Looks like KD is out until the playoffs at the earliest....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 04, 2017, 09:00:22 AM
Almost 14 years after being drafted (2nd round, LAC), Sofocles "Baby Shaq" Schortsanitis, center from Greece, makes an NBA roster (Philadelphia). This must be the longest ever span between being drafted and joining the league! Unless maybe Sabonis was longer? One moment...

Nope, Baby Shaq is longer: Sabonis was drafted in '86 and joined the league in '95.

But Sabonis was a great, great player (even in his waning years). Schortsanitis has been a solid role player in Euroleague.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on March 04, 2017, 10:55:32 AM
Cousins and that organization in Sac. were match made in hell. A malcontent player as the only "star" on a smaller market franchise that nearly moved away before the NBA forced the team to a nobody owner who thought he knew the game after coaching preteen girls.
I supported the stay in sacramento, great fans and city. Steve ballmer was never going to get the approval to move to seattle which is a fiasco itself, thats why he bought the clippers for 2 billion dollars ??? Overpaid dearly

Bogut should be in uniform tonight, Cavs set 3 point record last night in ATL. With the exception of last years team this roster is crazy ..
Not that long ago the starting 5 was antawn jamison, mo williams, alonzo gee, daniel gibson and semih erden and just about every d-league player there was from 2011-2014


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 04, 2017, 11:26:18 AM
The biggest concern I'd have about Cleveland's chances is injuries. Lebron has been an anomaly in this league, but after that, most of their good players have histories of injuries: Irving, Love, Shumpert, Smith, and now Williams and Bogut added to the blend. That's a lot of key guys who you just can't trust to be healthy from now through a championship run. If they are healthy, a championship is certainly possible. But how many guys have to fall before that's unlikely?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 04, 2017, 11:36:10 AM
Build a time machine and get "witness" Lebron from 2007...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 04, 2017, 12:07:52 PM
Honestly, despite my previous post, as long as Lebron is healthy, I wouldn't rule out a title. I'd just say it's a lower chance. But he's still so good...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 04, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
He is so damn good, closest to a perfect player in existence.  Cap, you excited? :hat


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 04, 2017, 12:59:07 PM
He is so damn good, closest to a perfect player in existence.

Hmm, probably could think through some arguments, but my guess is at the end of them, I'd have to agree. I think Durant would be the closest other current player to the title: a guy who can shoot (way better than Lebron), rebound and pass (neither as good as Lebron), defend, work within a team system or dominate on his own...but Lebron is so fucking strong, and not only CAN take over but HAS TAKEN over so many times... Lebron is the most perfect player there is right now. (He's one of the best ever, really. If we're talking about complete players, Jordan is probably the only guy I can think of who is in the same ballpark, because we're talking about someone who is both brilliantly skilled in as many facets of the game as possible AND brilliantly athletic, which removes Magic and Larry, for example, from the conversation.)

Cap, you excited? :hat

About what, the playoffs, etc.? Not yet, but the season is heating up. Most teams are down to 20 or so games to go, so we're finally approaching that time of year when players on both teams play hard on both ends for the entirety of games. I have to say, the difference between playoff NBA basketball and regular season NBA basketball is kind of depressing, because it shows just how little many players, teams, franchises care for those first 82 games.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 04, 2017, 01:02:52 PM
I taked about Lebron's strengths today with coworkers, he is built like a power forward, shoots like a shooting guard, and runs like a point guard! Playoff basketball is built like that and Lebron's rings are proof of that!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 04, 2017, 01:10:32 PM
Lebron James: 6-8, 250
Karl Malone: 6-9, 250

Malone was widely hailed throughout his career--especially the first two-thirds or so--as one of the best running power forwards in basketball. He was rightly praised for being in great shape and running hard and often. Despite being known for their effective halfcourt sets, the Jazz in general and Malone specifically ran when the opportunity presented itself, or rather, when they created the opportunities.

Lebron James is the same size as Malone, more or less, and he is not the fastest or best running big forward. He's a SMALL forward, first of all, but more importantly, he's one of the fastest players in the league, period. He's unbelievable in his speed. His leaping ability is--and certainly was, anyway--up there with the better wing players of all time, the Jordans and Drexlers. He's as strong as the strong players, as fast as the fast players, and as skilled as the skill players. Oh, and to top it off, as smart as the smart players. Sometimes people get bored with him being the greatest player of his time and want to say what's wrong with him, but let's be serious, here. There has never been a player like him, first of all. He has won titles for two franchises. He has dominated international competition. He was the best player on his team by far as a teenager, and he's the best player on his team by far as a thirty-something.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 04, 2017, 01:13:34 PM
Agreed Cap! I only take Jordan (as a Bulls fan homer) over him!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 04, 2017, 01:23:08 PM
I take a similar view on GOATs with players as I do with bands or albums: at a certain point, it's a silly argument. There may be tiers of sorts, but there isn't a real ranking, and even the tiers arguments take into account different criteria.

So basically I think there are a dozen or two dozen GOATs. And Lebron is one of them. But whether he's the best, he's certainly a singular talent.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 04, 2017, 01:25:27 PM
Like Pistol Pete in my own category!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2017, 08:16:51 AM
Going to the wizards game today!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 05, 2017, 08:23:50 AM
Nice, the new and improved Wizards. I think Bogdanovic and Jennings were great additions for them: two more scoring options; another shooter in Bogdanovic; another creator in Jennings at that badly needed upgrade at backup point guard. And with Orlando the opponent, it's a pretty good shot at seeing a victory, too.  Have a good time.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2017, 08:30:39 AM
Thanks Cap, you want a souvenir from the  team store?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 05, 2017, 09:16:18 AM
lol that's ok. My interest in basketball is pretty much the basketball, kind of like how all I like about music is music. Collectibles, autographs, etc., have never really been my thing.

Well, not since circa 1985-90, when I'd go to Vikings training camp and stalk the players for dozens of duplicative autographs. Rick Fenney, you came to know me well!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2017, 10:13:36 AM
Those were the days! :lol


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2017, 11:16:57 AM
Now that I remember it, I saw Brandon Jennings in high school score 61 points!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 05, 2017, 12:26:41 PM
When he was at Oak Hill? Or when he was still with his California team? Who was it against?

I saw Oak Hill play a couple of times here in Minnesota, as they've occasionally been a part of an annual day of games at Target Center featuring top Minnesota teams playing against assorted, good regional or national teams. Sadly it wasn't ever one of the best Oak Hill teams. DeSagana Diop and Steve Blake were the best players they ever had in terms of eventual pro production, though there were basically full rosters of D1 guys each time: Travis Watson, Ron Slay, Rashad Carruth, Billy Edelin, Abdou Diame, Antwayne Robinson, etc.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2017, 12:52:56 PM
Oak Hill!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2017, 02:58:26 PM
My seats are in the middle of a kids birthday party, lord help me! :-\


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2017, 05:12:07 PM
Great comeback from the wizards!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 05, 2017, 05:12:27 PM
another shooter in Bogdanovic;

 ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 05, 2017, 05:18:28 PM
True that! More than complemented  Beal and iffy night from wall...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on March 05, 2017, 09:40:56 PM
How was the music during the game? Apparently, during the 1st half of the Knicks game no music was played or any other form of in-game entertainment. Is this something that other teams have done in recent years? Ive never heard of it. The intent was to allow the fans to 'experience the game in its purest form'. Surprised the Knicks were willing to spotlight their product on the floor like that. Or perhaps they were trying to further endear themselves to potential free agents. I actually think it's a cool idea (even if it's just a one-off). It would have been interesting to be there. Draymond Green said it was 'pathetic' and 'completely disrespectful' :lol As a player (I'm trying to think way back to my playing days), I think it's more intense without the distractions. It's more intimate. I dont attend many games and have only been to MSG once to see a Knicks game, so i can't really comment on that experience. I just try to tune all that stuff out though. I just enjoy the game itself.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 06, 2017, 05:32:14 AM
Yeah the league needs to adopt that Knicks experiment full time! :hat


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 06, 2017, 05:37:14 AM
Yeah the league needs to adopt that Knicks experiment full time! :hat

Please yes. Never happen, but damn it would be fantastic.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 06, 2017, 05:57:14 AM
Basketball for the purists by the purists!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 06, 2017, 07:34:40 AM
And sadly the industry would contract. Many (most?) people who attend are interested in being part of some big crowd/spectacle. Not watching a game in a quiet, empty gym.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 07, 2017, 05:24:02 AM
Poor Bogut.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 07, 2017, 05:31:20 AM
52 second Cavs career..... :-\


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on March 10, 2017, 08:21:12 PM
TWolves!!!

Really looking forward to the Spurs - Warriors game tmw night.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 10, 2017, 08:26:45 PM
Just in time for a meaningless run that will result in the 15th pick...but still a nice win!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on March 10, 2017, 08:33:01 PM
Ahh, just read Kerr is sitting their best players and Kawhi will be out with a concussion. So much for a great game. Spurs should only be a half game out, with the tiebreaker, after tmw's game tho. Didnt expect that when the season started. Cavs havent been great lately either.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 11, 2017, 11:59:42 AM
And Aldridge is out with a heart issue.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 13, 2017, 05:34:46 PM
Rubio smacking around Wash. 6 pts, 2 reb, 10 assists in Q1.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 14, 2017, 08:54:22 AM
Its a Rubio thang... 8)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 14, 2017, 09:03:41 AM
He was spectacular. KAT, when he wasn't whining about no-calls, was pretty great, too.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2017, 03:46:04 PM
LaVine is out for the year, as we know. Bjelica--playing really well lately--is on crutches after last night's loss. And Lance Stephenson, just back from his previous foot injury, is reinjured.

With about 15 games to go, I'm on the fence whether I'd prefer to see them keep charging ahead, knowing the playoffs are a tiny, tiny chance ahead, or just semi-mail it in, play the deep bench more, lose some games, and go from the 9th pick (where we are now) to the 6th or so. Let New Orleans and Sacramento and other trash teams fight for worse picks in a good draft. I don't know what's best.

But I know this: anyone who starts praising Rubio now can f*** off. He was always great!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 16, 2017, 03:50:49 PM
Wade has cashed out on caring for the Bulls....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2017, 03:54:08 PM
Saw that. That team has quickly devolved from confusing and mediocre to a full-on train wreck. Guys start one night, are inactive the next. Everyone is bitching to the media. What a joke! But Wade ... can he get more than the $23m they owe him next year on the open market? Does he care?

Just now read that Bjelica is officially out for the year. I think if I were the Wolves, I'd limit KAT, Rubio, and Wig to about 30 mpg and just play Tyus, Baz, Gorgui, Rush, Aldrich, Dunn, etc., and let happen whatever happens. (Which would be losing.) Maybe sign a D-League wing and give him some run. Adrian Payne, hello!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 16, 2017, 04:12:26 PM
Cap, you got a M1 Abrams tank from Trump's new budget..


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2017, 04:17:35 PM
Man, don't bring me down. Make America great again by cutting all domestic spending and doubling down on unnecessary foreign militarism. His budget won't pass either house of Congress because both parties already despise it. PLEASE JUST TALK ABOUT BASKETBALL!

Here's something: let's focus on Luka Doncic, the 18-year-old Slovenian wing who seems inevitably to be a high pick whenever he comes over! For Real Madrid last year--a great, great, Euroleague and ACB team--averaged 14.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg and 4.1 apg, shooting 52% on 2pt%, 43% on 3s, and 85% FTs. He's about 6-8. He. Will. Be. Great.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 16, 2017, 04:21:27 PM
Sorry Cap!  :lol I am excited for the playoffs with both Golden State and the Cavs banged up. Time for a new team to rise?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2017, 04:24:07 PM
You know, while all season I figured it was those two, Houston, San Antonio, Washington, Boston, even Toronto...could be fun.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 16, 2017, 04:25:49 PM
Boston should have gone all out for Butler and the championship. Oh well, maybe Gordon Heyward in the offseason.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2017, 04:28:09 PM
Totally agree. Chicago is a mess: strike when the opportunity presents itself. It still may be possible, but will the opportunity be as good next year as this (when KD is either out or not at full strength)?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2017, 04:29:29 PM
btw, not NBA, but last weekend I went to a HS game and saw Jericho Sims, a really talented 6-9 kid headed to Texas next year. Wow... So talented. Really athletic, super-soft touch. I'd like to see him working harder on defense, rebounding, getting position, etc., but that's to be expected when you're in 1a (the smallest class) and just dominant. He had something like 36 and 14 and I felt he really, really underachieved.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 16, 2017, 04:30:27 PM
Exactly, the celtics had all the chips to win for this season. Meanwhile, you facing your resume to the Bulls (I want comped tickets dammit)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 16, 2017, 04:32:27 PM
Levar Ball this guy!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2017, 04:37:10 PM
Actually his dad was a Gopher back in the 70s. One of his older brothers played at U of Northern Iowa in the 90s (was a senior my freshman year there, before I transferred to U of MN), and another brother played football at U of MN. (Crazy time span of brothers.) So it's quite the athletic family.

By the way, by way of a disclaimer, I started drinking during the Gopher game today, which ended up a loss to Middle Tennessee State. So suffice to say, I am fucking hammered atm. Please forgive in advance whatever else I say.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 16, 2017, 04:43:07 PM
It's all good! ;D watching VCU right now.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 16, 2017, 05:32:41 PM
Cap you awake?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2017, 05:36:17 PM
Yessir, why do you ask?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 16, 2017, 05:37:49 PM
Watching the tourney tonight?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 16, 2017, 06:09:15 PM
Meh. Once Gophs lost I lost (interest) for the time being. Also, bracket was perfect until them. Assholes.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on March 17, 2017, 12:50:15 PM
VCU is out.... :'(


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on March 18, 2017, 12:39:24 PM
Whats up with durant? Online says he'll be ready by playoffs yet other 'sources' say he's done for season ??? 


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on March 18, 2017, 12:45:16 PM
I would say the reality isn't known yet, and "sources" aren't trustworthy because the unknown future can't be reported on...

If he's healthy enough to play well, I suspect he'll play some in the playoffs. But if he's a shell of himself, or risking further injury, there is no sense in him risking anything. Especially since he can be a FA again this offseason, if I'm not mistaken. There is no sense coming back at 50%, looking mediocre, and losing anyway. (Though actually G.S. with a 50% Durant might be good enough to win it all.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on April 02, 2017, 03:24:06 PM
Thats why im banned from bleacherreport for calling out hack writers who post BS lies to get views. thats the downside of internet and sports together, toooo many rumors
Cavs on now ready for the playoffs to start


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 09, 2017, 11:41:13 AM
Rondo came back from the dead....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 09, 2017, 12:04:26 PM
Hard not to look good compared to MCW and Jerian Grant and Cam Payne. Not to mention the guy is going to be released this summer and is doing a little tryout for the other teams.

That said he's going to have a really rough future because he still just can't shoot. In the modern NBA, if you can't shoot and you're a guard, you're far from a star, and probably not even a starter. Theoretically he could be surrounded with shooters and be at least productive--and if he applies himself again the way he once did, he's a very good defender and rebounder (and absolutely a genius passer). But when you're running pick and rolls, as every NBA team does almost constantly, it's tough if you're not a threat to shoot.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 09, 2017, 12:20:16 PM
Agreed, if you can't even stay with Sac you are screwed. Brooklyn to tank next year or overseas are his only options.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 09, 2017, 12:27:26 PM
I actually think his best option would be finding some shooter-loaded playoff team that wants him as a backup, assuming he's willing to accept that role. He is a terrible fit for bad teams because, whatever else he has been in recent years, he is a winner. Even his little social media tantrum earlier this year was in the interest of winning. But as I said earlier, he can't be a starter, realistically, on a decent team. He's just not as good as he used to be. (Not only was the NBA different in his heyday, but he was different, pre-injury: he was a freak athlete.)

But should his attitude come around, he could be a backup somewhere like Houston, where they could surround him with Eric Gordon, Lou Williams, Sam Dekker and Ryan Anderson or something, and with all that spacing he could still be an offensive threat in terms of getting to the hoop, even without a jumpshot.

It's really up to him. Otherwise, he's f***ed. The only teams that would let him start are terrible ... and even they might not. Think about it. Brooklyn has Lin under contract. He's burned his Sacramento bridge. LAL has young guards. Philly needs a guard but will want a shooter to complement Simmons. NOP has Holiday, at least for now. NYK? Ugh, I guess they have no PGs on the roster, but if they're insisting on triangle he's a terrible fit. Phoenix has PGs. He really is running out of options.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 09, 2017, 12:29:53 PM
Agreed, even Golden State signed a guy like Matt Barnes and wouldn't touch Rondo. Which is a damn shame because Rondo has one of the highest basketball IQ's in the game today. Just leave the mind games at the door dammit. 


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 09, 2017, 12:46:07 PM
That Celtics rebuilding project seems to be what really did him in. As long as he was surrounded by a) a winning team, and b) strong-willed, productive players like KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen, his own strong personality was not an issue. But when he's surrounded by losing buffoons, he looks around and rightly says "f*** this, I'm the smartest guy in the room: we're doing it my way."

Unfortunately, true or not, that's not how a program functions.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 09, 2017, 12:56:00 PM
That is not how a program functions, the big three of Boston knew their limits. Rondo not so much.....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on April 09, 2017, 02:20:58 PM
I have resorted to rooting against the Knicks in hopes of a better draft pick. With a little luck we could net a top 5 pick. Seriously, every night i check the box score hoping for a loss! They actually won 3 out of 5 recently  :wall. Anyway...

I read this article a few weeks ago and thought it was worth posting...https://16winsaring.com/history-suggests-mike-dantoni-will-win-coach-of-the-year-4d560efc3fc

It has some nice stats about recent COY winners. Excluding the '11-'12 lockout season, COY winner's teams averaged preseason O/U of 45 wins. They ended up winning an average of 59 games. It's not shocking in the least that the stats follow this good-to-great pattern, but I still found it interesting. Particularly, the differential rank among winners. I really only skimmed the text, so I can't attest to his analysis. I was really just interested in the numbers and thought some of you may be too. By the way, the article was published March 24th but the projected differentials are still quite accurate.

Coach Of The Year predictions?

Whenever I think about this I seem to focus on 7 coaches...
Western Conference: D'Antoni, Popovich, Kerr, Snyder.
Eastern Conference: Stevens, Spoelstra, Brooks.

At the mid-point of the season the Heat were 11-30. They are current 39-41 and may make the playoffs. I'm a big Spoelstra fan, but as incredible of a job that he has done, the season starts in November not mid-January. Stevens will probably get overlooked because his team isn't overachieving, but I really started to consider him as a possible winner when BOS overtook CLE for the #1 spot momentarily. I think that's probably what it would take for him to win COY. But hey, they're only a 1/2 game out! Similarly, people were high on Utah, so they aren't perceived to be overachieving. Still, a hell of a job. Kerr won't get any sympathy, but Durant has been out and they may still win 68 games! Popovich has had a great year with one great player. Another 60+ win season. And if he were to win that would be 4, which I believe has never been done. D'Antoni will probably win the COY. He has exceeded expectations more than the other coaches. Houston is having a great year. I think he deserves it, but not necessarily more than Popovich or Kerr, or possibly even Stevens, but not less, either. Personally, I'd like to see D'Antoni or Popovich win it, but those are just my biased thoughts. What do you guys think?

MVP?
Westbrook or Harden or co-MVPs

All year I felt like Harden had the edge, but I'm not so sure anymore. OKC will win between 45-48 games, that may just be enough to honor the incredible 31-10-10 (and that's rounding down :lol) season Westbrook has had. Honestly, I wouldn't mind co-MVPs, though it seems like a cop-out. There have been numerous co-ROY winners.

I think Kawhi should finish 3rd, ahead of LBJ.

Does Kawhi win Defensive Player of the Year again?
I think so.

This has been a lost season for me, but I'm really looking forward to watching some basketball once the playoffs start!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 09, 2017, 02:44:03 PM
For the Knicks, I'd be hoping for a Jackson exit first and foremost! I'd hate to imagine them winning the lottery and getting, say, Markelle Fultz, only to cram him into the triangle. But I'm right there with you about cheering for my own team to lose. The Wolves went on a nice little streak of wins just after they were out of the playoffs. C'mon, coach, do KAT and Wig really need 37-40 mpg at this point of this season?

Re COY, you named the guys I'd consider. I think the best coaches--regardless of this year's rosters or anything--are Pop, Stevens, and Spoelstra. D'Antoni has done an amazing job this year, and Kerr is obviously doing really well, too. (I think Luke Walton is doing a heck of a job, too, actually. Ditto Jason Kidd.) I think I'd go with Spoelstra because that roster is garbage and since that awful start, he's had them doing great things. Pop and D'Antoni would be next up on my list for this season.

Re POY ... I'm torn. Frankly if Durant hadn't missed so many games I'd have him right in the competition as well. Westbrook, Harden, Leonard, James, Durant, probably in that order for me. But so many guys played so well this year. Great season.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on April 09, 2017, 03:59:18 PM
Too bad CLE @ MIA tmw isnt on national TV. CLE lost in ATL today. Were up 26 after 3 quarters! Starters played huge minutes. BOS got a win lined up against Nets.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 09, 2017, 04:12:45 PM
Didn't CLE just lose to Atlanta the other day, too? Wow, I wonder what that's about. Clearly, playing the Big 3 40+ minutes apiece, it wasn't as if they weren't trying to win the game. Just bad matchups?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on April 09, 2017, 04:31:10 PM
That's right, they've lost to ATL back-to-back. Obviously, it hurts that Tristan is out, but the Hawk's bench won those two games (on paper, anyway). Also, Atlanta won the 3 in the first game. Cavs are in a position now where they can't afford to rest guys. They're home against TOR in their final game (not on national TV either). Makes for an interesting close to the regular season and a potential playoff matchup. I sometimes wonder if T. Lue is the right fit for the Cavs...the playoffs are getting close, I can feel it!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 09, 2017, 04:41:38 PM
To me, the Cavs' biggest issue is having kowtowed too much to Lebron's desire for a roster full of trusted vets. They basically sliced off their pipeline of younger talent by spending as much as possible on their core and then supplementing the roster the past few years with the guys like JR Smith, Iman Shumpert--those guys at the young end--and Channing Frye, James Jones, Anderson Varejao, Chris Andersen, Richard Jefferson, Dahntay Jones, Mo Williams, Shawn Marion, Mike Miller, Kendrick Perkins...

I realize that superstars hunting titles want old heads. That makes sense, too. You don't want Lebron surrounded with Dion Waiters and Anthony Bennett. But conversely, the GM has to maintain some balance to the roster to perpetuate success. San Antonio has been the much-lauded example of that, of course, by having at various times brought in Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili (yes, once young!), Danny Green, George Hill, Patty Mills, Tiago Splitter, Kawhi Leonard, and even some of the current younger guys like Kyle Anderson, Dejounte Murray, Bryn Forbes, etc., though we have to see how well they do over time.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 13, 2017, 01:45:14 PM
Bulls made the playoffs...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on April 13, 2017, 02:30:43 PM
Bulls made the playoffs...

I was kind of rooting for the Heat to make it these last few games. I watched some of the Pacers-Hawks last night hoping for a Pacer loss, which would have moved the Bulls up to 7th and the Heat to 8th. At this point, who would you have preferred to face as a Bulls fan, Celtics or Cavs? Cavs have been terrible defensively (since all-star break) and have developed some bad habits (lack of focus; turnovers). The Heat, Bulls, and Pacers were playing for their playoff lives and all three opponents were sitting their guys! I get it, but it doesn't make great TV.

So much for my comment about the Cavs being in a position where they couldn't rest their guys. Although, in my defense I took Lue at his word (he had said a week earlier that he wasn't going to rest his players until they clinched). You'd like to think that being the #1 seed means something to them, but it obviously doesn't. With that said, I don't think having home court advantage is necessarily a big deal. Still, it sure doesn't hurt.

Random thoughts on the playoffs...

-Rockets/Thunder should be entertaining
-I'd like to see the Jazz defeat the Clippers
-I think the Cavs are vulnerable. I can see numerous teams giving them trouble in the East
-I'll be watching all the Spurs games and hoping they win it all
-Really looking forward to this weekend, and watching some teams I haven't paid close attention to this season

Btw, Captain, I noticed Windhorst has KAT All-NBA 3rd team. Agree?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 14, 2017, 05:20:33 AM
I don't know about KAT as an all-NBA player. I mean, his performance was fantastic, no question about that--especially the second half of the year. But to make an all-NBA team, I'd like to see more than 31 wins...

TOTALLY agree on Jazz/Clippers. I hate, hate, hate the Clippers. I'm actually hoping that despite Doc's repeated proclamations otherwise, they blow it up. With a few key free agents, they would REALLY have to tie their own hands for years to come to keep the team together. Do you really want to do that with a core that's never made the conference finals? My comments about the Cavs' lack of tending to the future could be said doubly for LAC. And keeping this core together would make it even worse.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 14, 2017, 07:54:01 AM
Well the Bulls making the playoffs lets Gar/Pax keep their jobs..... :(


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 14, 2017, 07:55:09 AM
Which is ABSURD. They should be fired. I'm not one to hope for people to lose their jobs, but I believe they're financially secure, so I'm not too worried about it. What they've done to dismantle that team--a conference contender not long ago!--is just terrible.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 14, 2017, 07:56:49 AM
Exactly, and with Bears horrible 2016 season forever enshrined in that new ESPN documentary, watching the Cubs/Blackhawks are the only things keeping me sane in the Chicago sports area.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 14, 2017, 08:00:20 AM
Yeah, you really have my sympathy. Our kids'-nuts-ripping RB was pathetic the few games he played and our to-be-star QB tore the sh*t out of his leg, while our uber-talented basketball team somehow improved by a whopping TWO GAMES when it hired one of the best coaches in basketball. So yeah ... I feel SO BAD for you!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 14, 2017, 08:01:42 AM
Hey, the Wild made the playoffs and the Twins are the Twins. ;)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 14, 2017, 08:03:09 AM
Too bad I couldn't give two shits about hockey or baseball.  :-\


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 14, 2017, 08:04:45 AM
Well, you got a GS-CLE round three in the finals to look forward to.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 14, 2017, 08:06:24 AM
I'm excited for the playoffs, even sans the Wolves. Opening round, not all THAT excited. But even that will be pretty fun.

And it isn't long until the #1 holiday: NBA Draft.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 14, 2017, 08:16:47 AM
NBA Draft is always fun, especially when drinking...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 14, 2017, 08:25:11 AM
I actually find that the drinking hurts it, because my attention to detail (and reality) starts to fade by the second round. And sober, I'm all about those second-round picks.

The Wolves are probably picking in the 6-8 range, which unfortunately seems--consistent with the vast majority of Wolves' history--just outside of the top tier of talent. Some people are saying Malik Monk of UK could slip, but otherwise the names I see most often are Jonathan Isaac of FSU, Lauri Markkanen of Arizona, Zach Collins of Gonzaga, and a few point guards (DeAaron Fox of UK, Dennis Smith of NC St, Frank Ntilikina of France). None of those really excite me. I'd actually prefer to see the pick and Kris Dunn (and maybe more) packaged for as good a young vet as is available. Maybe a PF, maybe another wing. (Hello, Mr. Butler, how are you today?)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 14, 2017, 08:28:27 AM
I forget how detail oriented you are about basketball! :lol

Gar/Pax are morons so they would take the Wolves up on an offer for Butler with no return for Chicago.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 14, 2017, 08:30:31 AM
Shabazz Muhammad (restricted FA) for Butler, even-up.  ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on April 14, 2017, 08:51:21 AM
Throw in Second round pick and its a go. :'(


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on April 14, 2017, 08:55:02 AM
In all honestly, I would be willing to put together a pretty substantial package to get Butler--one that honestly would help Chicago rebuild, if that's what they want to do. I'd probably do Dunn, the 1st rounder, and LaVine, for example. And that's a fucking amazing package of potential, right there. It's a PG with more potential than Payne, Grant, MCW, or any of the other 500 PGs on that team; it's an immediate 20+ ppg scorer on the wings; and it's a promising piece to supplement the core through the draft. The money doesn't work except the Wolves are far enough below the cap that they could do it anyway, just by absorbing Butler's salary into their space. (Alternatively, they could include Pekovic's contract; since he's almost certainly never playing again, that's recoverable through insurance and comes off the books anyway.)

You could also create a blockbuster by making it include sign-and-trades, such as Mirotic (RFA) coming on board and something like Baz (RFA) or Dieng to Chi.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on May 05, 2017, 08:15:23 PM
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/664465/IMG_0595_zpsyar8jhtf.gif)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on May 15, 2017, 11:07:59 AM
Warriors spurs was a good game, hope kawhi leonard isnt out for the season

Cavs and goodyear agree to sponsor the goodyear foot on the teams jerseys next year ???  Nascar Basketball Association.. goodyears a local company though from Akron in all fairness atleadt its not Hankook... and my jeep only rides on goodyear wrangler radials :smokin


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on May 16, 2017, 06:14:50 PM
Beantown wins the #1 pick in the draft and in the ECF :o 


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 07, 2017, 07:51:18 AM
The Cap go scouting overseas? ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on August 07, 2017, 12:42:03 PM
No, it's just st been the kind of real-life spring and summer that makes reading whiny fan feuds an unnecessary annoyance (to say nothing of participating).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 07, 2017, 01:29:45 PM
Gotcha, that is your excuse for hiding your creation of an ABA 2 Minnesota Team. (which is the biggest scam league ever.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Basketball_Association_(2000%E2%80%93present)

"The ABA method of handing franchises to anybody who is willing to pay the ABA franchise fee, with no consideration to whether the franchisee can afford to operate the team or not, resulted in over 200 folded franchises as of the beginning of the 2008 season.[22] As of summer 2014, the number was over 350."


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on August 08, 2017, 02:35:40 PM
No ohio teams?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 10, 2017, 09:52:14 AM
No, it's just st been the kind of real-life spring and summer that makes reading whiny fan feuds an unnecessary annoyance (to say nothing of participating).
You think Wiggins is getting the max deal?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on August 11, 2017, 11:25:19 AM
Yes.

(Edit: OK, I decided I could elaborate.)

The Wolves are relatively desperate to make the playoffs in the near-term, and obviously build a program that can win for a few years into the future. The last thing they want at this point is for Wiggins to start being in dramatic "trade me" mode. And the reality is that despite his defensive and frankly all non-scoring shortcomings, he is really good and a lot of teams would be happy to give him the max. So it's not so much about deserving it as it is about relative valuation. He'll get it. The owner has basically said so in the main local paper (which he also owns, actually...). His only comment was that while the money is all but agreed upon, he wants to talk to Wiggins first to ensure he's truly committed if he signs it, that he'll spend parts of off-seasons here, be a real community asset, etc.

Hopefully from my perspective, Jimmy Butler's work ethic and all-around game will rub off on Wiggins (who is still only 22 or something, after all), and he'll grow into more of a star as opposed to his current status as one-dimensional scorer. He should be a lockdown defender, a 5-8 rpg guy, a 3-5 apg guy, a 38-40% 3pt shooter, etc. I'd actually be happy to see him score less, like 18 pgg, if he did more besides. And with Butler and Teague on board to help KAT's (presumed) dominance, that should be doable.

I'm a little wary of the whole thing, just because these things tend not to go well for teams in general and the Wolves in particular. But there isn't much else to do. If you trade him you'll get less than he's worth because other teams don't want to trade young, super talents. Instead it would probably be a mix of proven but lesser players and picks (which have risks associated).


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on August 19, 2017, 12:51:22 PM
Glen taylor's a great owner, the type of billionaire i respect, he seems so chill compared to alot of owners.
 its gonna be tough though atleast this upcoming season the west is super stacked :'(
I like how all the upcoming 'predictions' for the team(s) to beat in the western conference is GSW then HOU? :lol  they add chris paul and are the next best team in the west? GSW is on fire they'll sweep them.
 Would like to see your timberwolves get an 8th seed and face GSW in the first round


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on August 19, 2017, 03:20:50 PM
If the Wolves were the 8 seed, I think the state would be pretty depressed. After the Butler trade, and then even more the Teague, Gibson, and Crawford signings, nobody would be happy with 8 seed. I think 3-6 is what the expected range is.

As for Houston, I'm curious how that works. Paul is obviously, hugely ball dominant. And Harden has become among the most ball-dominant players in the league since moving to Houston. It'll be tough to imagine those two being happy together. Nobody is a Lamar Odom, a Toni Kukoc, a Scottie Pippen. They both want the ball every possession.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on August 19, 2017, 04:42:43 PM
3-6 ;) i would be very surprised if 3rd but anything can happen., Now if houston can get melo that would be interesting


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 31, 2017, 12:08:37 PM
East will be interesting this year!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on August 31, 2017, 12:13:28 PM
It should be. Cleveland really got the better of that trade, in my opinion (especially now with yet another pick, even if only a 2nd), and finally are moving toward a post-Lebron vision. They hemorrhaged draft picks since he planned his return, and in doubling down, used them to sign oldsters who are off the team, out of the league, or at the end of the bench. The Brooklyn pick and now this second rounder, plus a reasonably priced Crowder, make it a great deal no matter what.

Boston will be right up there again this year.

Toronto, Miami, Washington should all be competitive.

After that I don't know what's going to happen.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 31, 2017, 12:18:05 PM
I am worried about the health of Thomas, the Cavs have this year to win before the window closes and those draft picks are used for a rebuild.

Bulls are talking about buying out Wade so I guess I will root for the Wizards this year. Its about time Washington had some success on the level of the 1970s era Bullets again.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on August 31, 2017, 12:35:33 PM
I don't think Thomas matters much to the Cavs, to be honest, especially if Derrick Rose can be healthy enough to be a consistent factor. Their main need from a PG is someone who defends PGs (which Kyrie chose not to try to do), because Lebron plays PG on offense when he's in the game. So they need a backup PG who can run the show, but mostly just need somebody competent to defend. Ideally, that person could also shoot the ball, because a spot-up shooting PG would be better with Lebron than a Kyrie (or Isaiah). If I were them I'd actually try to find a 3-and-D kind of 6-2 guard. The guy could be a minimum-salary guy. He'd be fine.

The second unit could be Derrick Rose and Kevin Love scoring the points.

As for the Bulls, I think they'd be foolish not to get rid of Wade. I think he's more harm than good, frankly. Nobody needs a half-broken, big-mouthed former superstar playing the role of the angry old man yelling at kids going on his lawn. He'd have some more authority if he had gotten around to learning to shoot the ball sometime in the past 15 years. It's not like it wasn't an obvious flaw in his game, and something that would be more and more valuable to him as his athleticism and gung-ho style faded with time. They're obviously fully rebuilding now, so keeping somebody like him would do nothing for their future. (It might sell some tickets yet around Chicago, I don't know. But ick.) That team is a train wreck regardless.

Washington is going to be interesting. I could imagine them competing for a second seed, or falling out of the top four.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 31, 2017, 01:12:49 PM
Agreed on the Wade buyout, guy isn't aging gracefully....

Wall and Beal are studs that deserve big money, not sure about Porter's deal.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on August 31, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
That's the thing about the NBA: sometimes it's not a matter of how much a guy seems objectively to be worth, but how much some other team might pay him (and both Sacramento and Brooklyn offered him max), and then what your backup plan is. Washington was over the cap, so their options for a replacement were limited. Not sure whether they had their midlevel to use, but even if they did, there wasn't anyone of Porter's caliber for that. That exact scenario is the reason we have an increasing disparity in the league: max or near-max guys, then midlevel and minimum guys. Very little in terms of that middle class.

I like Porter. But not that much. But is Oubre ready for 30 mpg as a starting wing? Or Satoransky (who wants to play PG anyway)? I'd say no.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 31, 2017, 01:43:34 PM
What do you think of Wiggins firing his agent on the verge of a huge deal in Minnesota?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on August 31, 2017, 01:47:29 PM
Bizarre. Obviously it can't be about the contract itself, so my only assumptions would be a) endorsement related stuff; b) personality stuff?; or c) he wanted to be signed-and-traded or something, and that didn't get done. (Total speculation.) But really, how upset can you be when your agent negotiates a max deal?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on August 31, 2017, 01:57:22 PM
None, I would take it in a heartbeat. You send in your resume to Wiggins? ;)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on August 31, 2017, 03:00:46 PM
East will be interesting this year!

I hope so, but I'm not optimistic. Most of my interest is out west. Houston acquiring Chris Paul (and possibly Melo), New Orleans trading for Cousins, re-signing J. Holiday, and signing Rondo. OKC acquiring Paul George. MIN acquiring J. Butler. The West got better at the expense of the East. Paul Millsap was also traded out west (Denver). The BOS/CLE dynamic is interesting. I agree that CLE won that trade, but did they get any closer to defeating the GSW? I'm more interested to see how good the Celtics can be with Irving and Hayward. I really thought the East was gaining on the West a little bit in recent years (from top to bottom), but this off-season destroyed that. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm completely sold on the 16-seed playoff bracket. Just do away with the conferences. It's actually starting to bother me that that's not how it's done. I think the last few years have been terrible, from that perspective.

MIN: From afar it seemed like Rubio's time in MIN was up, but after LaVine and Dunn were traded to Chicago I thought they might keep him. So, I was surprised to see him traded to Utah like that. Then, shortly thereafter, they sign J. Teague and it made sense, but I'm still not sold on it. Yeah, he's a better shooter, but I don't think I would have made that move. Other than that, it's a great time to be a Wolves fan!

NY? Are we finally, truly embracing a rebuild? That'd be nice. Our PG position is so weak that 19-year old Frank Ntilikina could potentially start at some point this season. Just play the young guys! Develop them... I really hope the Knicks weren't bidding against themselves for Hardaway Jr, but I think they were. Even factoring in that he was a RFA, they couldn't have signed him for $1-2M/yr less?


Random thoughts:
-Wow, Spurs got Rudy Gay on the cheap!
-So, the Knicks decide to dump Phil, but wait til just after the draft? Odd.
-Pat Riley's idea that the lottery teams should play a mini-playoff to determine draft picks sure sounds entertaining! Problematic, but interesting nonetheless.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on August 31, 2017, 03:53:46 PM
Lots of good stuff, B.E.

Regarding the East, the thing is, regardless of how many good teams are out West, only one can make the Finals. So just being competitive in the East matters a lot because, as we saw in 15-16, sometimes the lesser team wins. Someone is hurt, or someone is suspended for kicking people in the nuts, and you've got yourself a series. So I can understand Eastern teams just thinking Eastern positioning ... as if they could compete outright with GS anyway. It's impossible without a full-on miracle in the short term.

I think you're overrating some of those moves in the West, though. New Orleans is going to be a mess with two ball-dominant posts, almost literally zero wings, one good but injury prone PG, and one PG who refuses to shoot and is moody to boot. Rudy Gay might be the most un-Spurslike player ever, except maybe Lamarcus Aldridge, and they won't have Tony Parker for most of the year (and may never get him back anywhere near the guy he was). They'll be back, but this year? Seems like a stretch. Denver, though, I do think will be really good. Houston, I'm curious how those two guards co-exist.

Rubio ... well, the Jazz may be my favorite team by midseason depending on how things go. I thought that was a terrible, terrible decision.

New York ... good luck! At least you've still got Zinger, Hernangomez, and Kuzminskas. And maybe Ntkitilina will turn out to be good. As for Hardaway, sorry, but that was way, way more than anyone else was offering by all accounts. Forget $1-2m a year less, they could have had him for 75% or less of that number. He's a nice player. But still. It's like the Noah signing the year before. New York just can't see any money in their accounts, apparently, and insist upon spending it IMMEDIATELY.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on August 31, 2017, 04:00:09 PM
OK, waiting for details here, but I'm confused. Bulls trading with New Orleans so Chicago gets Quincy Pondexter, a 2nd rounder, and cash. I don't know what, if anything, NO is getting. (They have to get something, even if the stuff is absorbed into cap space, so presumably a pick or rights to a foreign player?)

It gives New Orleans a lower payroll but I think they're still well over the cap, so I'm not sure what good it actually does. Maybe they still have their midlevel and can now use that without going into the luxury tax (which they were near)? I guess if you want to move Pondexter and sign, say, Shabazz Muhammad, that's something. But that's quite a price for any shooters or wings on the market right now.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on August 31, 2017, 05:40:43 PM
Regarding the East, the thing is, regardless of how many good teams are out West, only one can make the Finals. So just being competitive in the East matters a lot because, as we saw in 15-16, sometimes the lesser team wins. Someone is hurt, or someone is suspended for kicking people in the nuts, and you've got yourself a series. So I can understand Eastern teams just thinking Eastern positioning ... as if they could compete outright with GS anyway. It's impossible without a full-on miracle in the short term.

I think you're overrating some of those moves in the West, though. New Orleans is going to be a mess with two ball-dominant posts, almost literally zero wings, one good but injury prone PG, and one PG who refuses to shoot and is moody to boot. Rudy Gay might be the most un-Spurslike player ever, except maybe Lamarcus Aldridge, and they won't have Tony Parker for most of the year (and may never get him back anywhere near the guy he was). They'll be back, but this year? Seems like a stretch. Denver, though, I do think will be really good. Houston, I'm curious how those two guards co-exist.

Yeah, you're right about the East, and in that sense it will always be interesting, but it would be far more interesting to me if there was more parity between the conferences.

In regard to those transactions, I share your skepticism. It's not so much that I think they are or aren't great moves, but fascinating ones. I'm very interested to see how it plays out! For better or worse. Particularly, Paul/Harden in HOU. I just hate to see the East lose franchise players to the West. I'm surprised that more all-stars weren't interested in escaping the West for the East. It has served LeBron well  ;D.

I'm not too worried about the Spurs PG situation. I think losing Simmons hurts and I'm still not thrilled with Aldridge (at times I hate him/want to trade him). Though, did you see what the Spurs were doing to GS before Kawhi got hurt (and that was without Parker)? I can see the Spurs losing a few more games this year (I expect it, perhaps more than a few), but they'll still be a top 3 seed.

Rubio ... well, the Jazz may be my favorite team by midseason depending on how things go. I thought that was a terrible, terrible decision.

I had a feeling you wouldn't like it!

How much does losing Hayward hurt the Jazz? I'd think it would hurt a lot. Too bad, because I really liked what they had going. I hated to see Gobert get injured in the playoffs.

New York ... good luck! At least you've still got Zinger, Hernangomez, and Kuzminskas. And maybe Ntkitilina will turn out to be good. As for Hardaway, sorry, but that was way, way more than anyone else was offering by all accounts. Forget $1-2m a year less, they could have had him for 75% or less of that number. He's a nice player. But still. It's like the Noah signing the year before. New York just can't see any money in their accounts, apparently, and insist upon spending it IMMEDIATELY.

I think trading Hardaway Jr was one of the first things Phil did, so clearly Steve Mills and others in the Knicks organization disagreed. Honestly, I think Atlanta matches at 75%. He played really well as a starter after the all-star break. Still, at THAT price tag, the Knicks gotta show some f*cking restraint :lol It's a move in the right direction from the Noah signing though, isn't it? ...it could work out. Possibly.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 01, 2017, 07:02:56 AM
I'd like to add a few thoughts on the Spurs and Jazz.

Spurs
I do think PG is going to be somewhat of an issue--or at least could be. Patty Mills is back, but he's really an off-guard in a point guard's body. Ginobili has historically played most of those minutes together, and taken more of the creative role, but even though Manu is back, how many minutes can he play at age 500 (or whatever he is)? Kawhi is great--like, REALLY great--but he isn't really a Lebron-style creator from the forward, either. Or at least he hasn't been so far, though with his ongoing improvement, I'd never count him out. Pau passes well from the 4/5 spots, but obviously that's no solution.

It might end up that they count heavily on Dejounte Murray, or even rookie Derrick White. And neither of those seems like a safe bet, even though both seem like projects well worth investing in. (I read a quote that one Spurs staffer said he thinks Murray has the talent to be the best Spurs PG ever, which is no small thing for a franchise that's had Wes Matthews, Rod Strickland, Avery Johnson, Tony Parker...

Jazz
I'm not sure how much losing Hayward hurts them. I mean, he's a great player. But if they're healthy, they have several guys who all seemingly could take more. Alec Burks was one heck of a player before being hurt the bulk of the past couple years. Rodney Hood may well turn out to be 80% or more the player Hayward is. Dante Exum is super talented, though he hasn't consistently shown much. The rookie guard, Donovan Mitchell, is really highly regarded as a pretty complete player and a good athlete, too. Joe Johnson is still around and can help out.

Maybe their best development is that while they lose a playmaker, they gain Rubio, who is a great option to make sure everyone else has a chance to show their best. And defensively, they're going to be interesting: Rubio will probably be allowed more freedom to gamble, considering the Gobert line of defense behind him. I don't expect the Jazz to fall off much, if at all. They'll just do it differently.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 11, 2017, 11:43:54 AM
Cap playing NBA Jam to warm up for the season?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 11, 2017, 11:52:16 AM
I don't think I've played a video game since the late 90s.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on September 14, 2017, 12:34:49 PM
I am worried about the health of Thomas, the Cavs have this year to win before the window closes and those draft picks are used for a rebuild.

Bulls are talking about buying out Wade so I guess I will root for the Wizards this year. Its about time Washington had some success on the level of the 1970s era Bullets again.

Washington is fun to watch, seen them 3 times since '10 basically since their tickets are the cheapest next to the pistons at the Q when i mean cheap its the lower end of mid-level ;D

Not worried about lebron leaving when he already said Clevelands where he'll finish his career, LA cant stand that a shithole city Cleveland aka  'the dumpster fire' as LA laker fans say religiously has a better team than them. Hes gonna buy the cavs and move'em to Akron dont ya know






Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 14, 2017, 12:38:00 PM
I'll be surprised if Lebron doesn't play for (at least) one more franchise before he retires.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on September 14, 2017, 01:13:47 PM
4 finals 07,15,16,17 and the only championship for Cleveland since 1964. He said 1 championship and he delivered it, id rather see any team but BOS, GSW, or Lakers get Lebron on their team.

something about LA especially this past summer really gets me with just these ignorant people thinking small markets arent 'good' enough for superstar athletes the same is being said for OKC and how westbrook and paul george are too good to play in Oklahoma.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 14, 2017, 01:27:26 PM
I'll be surprised if Lebron doesn't play for (at least) one more franchise before he retires.
Lavar Ball is calling.... ::)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 14, 2017, 01:29:51 PM
4 finals 07,15,16,17 and the only championship for Cleveland since 1964. He said 1 championship and he delivered it, id rather see any team but BOS, GSW, or Lakers get Lebron on their team.

something about LA especially this past summer really gets me with just these ignorant people thinking small markets arent 'good' enough for superstar athletes the same is being said for OKC and how westbrook and paul george are too good to play in Oklahoma.

Hell, Chicago is isn't good enough.... :-\


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on September 14, 2017, 02:05:53 PM
Thats a surprise too since Chicago is the 'Big City' of the great lakes, seems when d.rose tore his ACL MVP season nothing has gone right for the bulls.. just for laughs https://youtu.be/Vpr_KaaRjW0


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 14, 2017, 02:58:35 PM
4 finals 07,15,16,17 and the only championship for Cleveland since 1964. He said 1 championship and he delivered it, id rather see any team but BOS, GSW, or Lakers get Lebron on their team.

something about LA especially this past summer really gets me with just these ignorant people thinking small markets arent 'good' enough for superstar athletes the same is being said for OKC and how westbrook and paul george are too good to play in Oklahoma.


I'm in a small market, so that's not it from my perspective. And frankly I don't care where Lebron plays. But I'm just saying, that franchise has basically mortgaged its future by building the team that surrounds Lebron now. Pick after pick after pick dealt away to acquire old players: Mike Miller, Kyle Korver, Deron Williams, Channing Frye, Richard Jefferson. That's my point. The team's salary cap situation was TERRIBLE, and is better but still not great now since the Kyrie trade. Lastly, Lebron by all accounts hates--hates--the owner. I think he's going to LA or NY, personally. But we'll see.

If the Cavs are smart in long-term basketball terms, they let Lebron go, let Isaiah go (rather than sign him to a massive deal), try to get picks for Love, and start over. And most importantly, they don't fire their GM and coach every other year and instead commit to a program.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on September 24, 2017, 10:07:47 AM
Finally, Melo's been traded! Anyone else find it amusing that he both waived and retained his 'no trade' clause? Or that there were discussions with CLE involving Shumpert/Frye and HOU involving Ariza? -all former Knicks ???

Anyway, the West just keeps getting better. I can't wait for the season to start! I'm starting to think that GS will not make it back to the Finals next year.

As a Knicks fan, I'm happy. It feels like we are truly rebuilding (even if Noah's still on the books, for now). I'm looking forward to (occassionally) watching the young players develop and locking up that top 3 draft pick! :lol


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 24, 2017, 02:14:25 PM
It's a shame for the fans how much the front office bungled the past year or two, resulting in the need to take solace in two role players and a 2nd rounder for Melo. But when everyone knows you're desperate, you have no leverage.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on September 25, 2017, 07:45:24 AM
D. Wade buyout imminent. I can't help but notice he left Miami over money, yet is giving up 8-10M. Oops.

It's a shame for the fans how much the front office bungled the past year or two, resulting in the need to take solace in two role players and a 2nd rounder for Melo. But when everyone knows you're desperate, you have no leverage.

It is a shame, but I'm relieved it's over. For the reason you point out, I was afraid the deal would be worse or that it would linger into the season or that the Knicks would attempt to bring Melo back into the fold. Here's to hoping the Knicks can actually commit to a rebuild for a reasonable length of time.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on September 28, 2017, 05:26:09 PM
A few changes...

-NBA can fine teams for resting healthy players
-Draft odds have been flattened out (starting in 2019)

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/09/28/changes-lottery-resting-players (http://www.nba.com/article/2017/09/28/changes-lottery-resting-players)

Silver also reiterated that he expects players to stand respectfully for the national anthem.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 05:40:50 PM
I like the lottery reform, though I'd have preferred the "wheel" idea that was proposed a couple years ago. It basically removed all incentive over time, so that all teams had the same odds in a lengthy cycle at top picks.

The resting, I'm not so sure of.

The anthem stuff, frankly I have no dog in the fight. My opinions are against almost everyone who has said anything on the topic. I'm on an island. So whatever.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 28, 2017, 05:54:20 PM
It’s the end of an era for the sixers...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 05:58:44 PM
Yeah. I'm guessing fans are cool with that era ending. (I'm so, so interested in this 76ers team.)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 28, 2017, 06:01:34 PM
Will they call this the “hinke rule”?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on September 28, 2017, 06:04:26 PM
I like the lottery reform, though I'd have preferred the "wheel" idea that was proposed a couple years ago. It basically removed all incentive over time, so that all teams had the same odds in a lengthy cycle at top picks.

The resting, I'm not so sure of.

The anthem stuff, frankly I have no dog in the fight. My opinions are against almost everyone who has said anything on the topic. I'm on an island. So whatever.

Hmm, I need to check out the "wheel" idea. I noticed someone reference it while I was reading about the new changes, I must have missed it (or forgotten).

I agree about the resting, though I guess it couldn't hurt. I suppose it will deter teams just enough to avoid some of the bad press.

In regard to the anthem, I can understand that. Still, I'm interested to see what happens.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 06:22:14 PM
I'm REALLY interested in what happens with te NCAA situation.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 28, 2017, 06:23:44 PM
Rick Petino needs Al Pacino to play him in a movie. After the one about joe paterno.... :afro


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 28, 2017, 06:25:51 PM
Not much sympathy coming Pitino's way these days.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 28, 2017, 06:26:42 PM
A cat only has nine lives...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on September 29, 2017, 10:49:47 AM
Cavs are the over the hill gang with wade....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on September 29, 2017, 12:09:55 PM
Did they waive anyone yet to make room for Wade? They already had too many players under contract and were likely to waive Edy Tavares and Kay Felder. Now I'd guess somebody else has to go. Richard Jefferson?



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SurfRapGrungeFiend on October 01, 2017, 07:37:33 PM
Jacorey williams who CAVS signed less than a week ago.
Over the hill gangs right barring injuries ginna be an interesting season to say the least, got a great laugh watching the browns get booed off the field by clevelanders who finally realizing the drain they are to cuyahoga county

Now that the rollercoaster free agency summer is over, I cant wait for the season to start and good luck GSW they really got their work cut out for them.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 03, 2017, 04:36:07 AM
After Williams they still have 16 fully guaranteed contracts, so someone else still has to go.

I’m guessing Jefferson.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 03, 2017, 01:08:03 PM
All-Star game update: No more East vs West. Two captains will pick teams and they will play for charity.

No need to underscore the talent imbalance between the conferences, I suppose.  ;D

I'd love it if this ultimately led to a playoff change as well. Trial run?


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 03, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
Nice change. Not only to abolish the conference differential, but hopefully (by picking players and playing for charities) picking up the level of play somewhat. I get that nobody is going to go all-out during an exhibition in the middle of the regular season and risk injury, but it has truly turned into a joke in the past 10-15 years. At least back in the 80s it was accepted that you'd come out flashy for the fans, but once you got deeper into the game, the players were trying to win. Sometimes they even played--GASP!--defense!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 03, 2017, 01:46:15 PM
Cap got Wolves season tickets? https://www.ebay.com/i/122724778379


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 03, 2017, 02:08:52 PM
Never. I enjoy the occasional game but for the most part I'd rather watch sports in relative peace and quiet.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 03, 2017, 02:13:04 PM
Gotcha, the game experience has gotten out of hand these days...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 03, 2017, 02:41:14 PM
I'm mostly not a "be a part of the crowd" kind of guy to begin with. (Shocking, I know.) But yeah, the increasing emphasis on so-called entertainment really takes away from the basketball from my perspective. The best basketball I've ever watched from a pure watching experience perspective is probably summer league at Target Center back when they hosted a small contingent of franchises (late 00s?). I remember sitting front row back when the Knicks had rookies David Lee and Nate Robinson, and Ron Artest was, I think, coming back from his suspension and playing summer league, obviously dominating everyone. You could hear everything every coach said, and 2/3 of what players said. Barely any fans. A good time!

Actually there was one unbelievable moment in one of those summer games. I recall Nate Robinson dunking over about 4-5 people--I mean that literally, he rose up over these people, literally atop them--and dunked. David Lee went nuts, walking along the first row talking to people (including me and a friend). "Did you see that? I've never seen anything like that in my life," he kept saying. It was a pretty spectacular dunk!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 03, 2017, 02:57:14 PM
Oh wow, what a blast to watch NBA basketball in that atmosphere! You saw Nate Robinson fly! ;D


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 03, 2017, 03:08:22 PM
I've actually increasingly watched basketball from a distance. Throughout college and post-college, I did enough actual covering of teams that I saw most basketball close-up, with access to players, coaches, etc. As time has gone on, I've become more of a normal fan.

Well, normal is a relative term... But anyway, point being, I like watching basketball from a purely basketball perspective. The "fan experience," as marketing professionals (of which sadly I now am one) would pummel you with, is annoying and irrelevant. Watching basketball is at its best when it's just watching basketball.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 06, 2017, 08:31:37 AM
I watched hockey from a distance at my house last night and drank too much. :beer

Bring on the Wizards on local TV!


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 06, 2017, 09:07:15 AM
Yeah I heard hockey was starting up last night. Or tonight. Whatever. Somehow despite being in what is most likely the best hockey state in the country, I mostly manage to ignore it entirely.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 06, 2017, 09:08:43 AM
No Hockey mullet? ;)


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 06, 2017, 09:12:20 AM
Just saw someone on ESPN deflated the Sixers hype this week as all hype...here we go again. I mean I'm not going to be watching but it is good for the city and area overall to be excited about a sports franchise every decade or so.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 06, 2017, 09:18:43 AM
I think injuries are going to be the story of the 76ers season. If Embiid plays less than two-thirds of the season, if Simmons gets hurt again, if an aging Redick gets banged up, if some of the other backcourt role players (Bayless, Stauskas) miss substantial time and thin out the rotation, they could be terrible. But there are so many more options this season, and obviously so much better high-end talent, I think at least high 30s is a realistic win total. And a playoff run if everyone is healthy is entirely possible.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 06, 2017, 09:21:51 AM
Meanwhile the Bulls will win 15 games....


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 06, 2017, 09:29:35 AM
If Chicago even tries to win games (at the front office level .. obviously the people on the floor should try), they're beyond idiots. They need to win 15 games and get that chance at a high pick. I actually think they were stupid to retain Mirotic, too, since he's a serviceable veteran. They should have let him go, or maybe done a sign-and-trade at most, so they could get more playing time for Bobby Portis or Cristiano Felicio or whoever. They should let LaVine rehab until after All Star break. Role with Kris Dunn turnovers and air-balled floaters. Laugh as Denzel Valentine tries and fails on defense.

This team most of all needs new management. I wonder whether "consultant" Doug Collins wasn't actually brought in to advise ownership on the futures of Paxson and Forman. And by advise on, I mean walk into their offices and fire them.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: B.E. on October 06, 2017, 09:45:13 AM
So, who wins more games: Knicks or Bulls? What other teams are their main competition for the #1 draft pick? I've been focusing so much on the improved teams that I'm not so sure who the worst teams are. Obviously, health will probably be the main factor. No doubt KP misses some games here and there, as well.

I'm actually looking forward to watching the Knicks, though. If they play hard on both ends and play unselfishly, I'll watch. Not having that superstar-type guy is refreshing to me. Players often end up deferring to such an extent it stifles the game. Ultimately, it comes down to culture, but still...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 06, 2017, 09:52:22 AM
Oh, the Knicks will win more games almost for sure. The Bulls, man ... they're going to be terrible. Just terrible. Off the top of my head, these are the likely options.

PG: Jerian Grant, Kris Dunn
SG: Denzel Valentine (Zach LaVine eventually)
SF: Paul Zipser?
PF: Niko Mirotic, Bobby Portis, Lauri Markkanen
C: Robin Lopez, Cristiano Felicio

I mean, wow. that's not a good team. I'm probably forgetting somebody, but I doubt he's any good. My guess is that Chicago wins 15-22 games.

The second-worst team? Probably Atlanta, who has moved almost everyone who's any good. Their best player, arguably by far, is now Dennis Schroder. Yikes.

Then it's into the Brooklyn, New York, Phoenix, Dallas, Orlando, Sacramento, LAL territory, where I could imagine anywhere from 23 to 33 wins depending on how the chips fall, who gets hurt, etc.



Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 06, 2017, 10:02:14 AM
Yeah, tough times ahead in Chicago due to Paxton and Forman running talented coaches/players out of town...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 06, 2017, 10:15:28 AM
They just haven't had a coherent strategy.

First, they went all-in with Thibs and that style. They won big. They alientated Thibs and made clear they had no intention of retaining him, to the point that it was obvious Hoiberg was the coach-in-waiting even while Thibs was still there.

They hire Hoiberg, but leave him with more or less Thibs' roster. He struggles.

Rather than really rebuild to suit Hoiberg's style, they build last year's ridiculous Frankenstein's Roster with Wade, Rondo, Butler, and Lopez, plus Grant, Portis, Valentine, etc.

At least now they're really rebuilding. But they're about two years too late.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 06, 2017, 10:19:06 AM
And when I say rebuild, I'm not even saying they necessarily should have blown it all up. But they took a tepid approach that got nothing done. They could have moved some of the Thibs players for Hoiberg-style players and tried to retool on the fly. But no. They half-rebuilt, half-didn't.


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: the captain on October 07, 2017, 07:44:09 AM
Oh, the Knicks will win more games almost for sure. The Bulls, man ... they're going to be terrible. Just terrible. Off the top of my head, these are the likely options.

PG: Jerian Grant, Kris Dunn
SG: Denzel Valentine (Zach LaVine eventually)
SF: Paul Zipser?
PF: Niko Mirotic, Bobby Portis, Lauri Markkanen
C: Robin Lopez, Cristiano Felicio

I mean, wow. that's not a good team. I'm probably forgetting somebody, but I doubt he's any good. My guess is that Chicago wins 15-22 games.



Justin Holiday is another wing whom I'd forgotten. And I have to admit he's all right. Not good as a key player, but a decent low-rotation guy. Too bad he'll probably start...


Title: Re: NBA 2017 Topic
Post by: SMiLE Brian on October 12, 2017, 11:52:05 AM
Yeah but thats why I am a Wizards fan this year!