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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2016, 06:41:44 AM »

Those ABA cities of the 1970s are the best place to start for expansion. ( except my old Virginia Squires Cry)
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2016, 07:16:22 AM »

My thought is it would have to be a city that can take an Eastern Conference team for competitive balance's sake. (You can't add two Western Conference teams and then, say, move one existing team east. It would make the western teams' schedules so much easier...)

The biggest markets in the US without teams in the eastern half of the country are Tampa, Fl (18th, at just under 3 million), St. Louis, MO (20th at 2.9 million), Baltimore, MD (21st at 2.8 million), Pittsbugh PA (26th at 2.4 million), Cincinnati (28th at 2.2 million), and Kansas City, MO/KS (30th, at 2.1 million). Of these, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and St. Louise have been mentioned (along with smaller markets like Louisville).

So market-wise, I'd say St. Louis, if it is interested, is the smart choice, with Pittsburgh another realistic option.

Then the question becomes, how do we handle divisions? We currently have three five-team divisions per conference. If we go to 32 teams, does that mean we go to two eight-team divisions per conference? Four four-team divisions? Unbalanced divisions, with one six-team and two five-team divisions per conference? These are things I think about.
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« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2016, 07:21:01 AM »

I would expand "eastward" to either Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, or St. Louis. All have a long professional basketball history and are hotbeds for the game during the long winters in those areas.

I think a baseball situation of unbalance divisions might be in order.... 
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2016, 07:26:16 AM »

So either St. Louis, Pittsburgh, or Cincinnati joins the Central in the EC and Seattle joins the Northwest in the WC. (Expansion team in the Wolves' division, I like it. That's a couple of wins...)
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« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2016, 07:29:44 AM »

The wolves are no longer the team to be beat up in the division! Evil

Good plan for one eastern team and one western team expansion.
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2016, 12:25:53 PM »

This is along the lines of what these two teams (the Seattle Supersonics and St. Louis Spirit, of course) might conceivably look like. At least generally. This involves an expansion draft, an NBA draft, and free agency. Obviously, this means I was deciding who teams may or may not protect, which of those players the expansion teams may or may not select, who they may draft, and who they might try to sign (and succeed in signing) in free agency. But roughly speaking, this is the kind of rosters we could expect in Year One.

Seattle
PG
Jeremy Lin (Exp)
Markelle Fultz (R - NBA Draft)
Aaron Brooks (FA)

SG
Bojan Bogdanovic (FA)
Jeremy Lamb (Exp)
Wayne Ellington (Exp)
James Young (Exp)
CJ Wilcox (Exp)

SF
Evan Turner (Exp)
Omri Casspi (FA)

PF
Terence Jones (FA)
Nigel Hayes (R - NBA Draft)
Quincy Acy (Exp)

C
Tyson Chandler (Exp)
Al Jefferson (Exp)
Spencer Hawes (FA)

St. Louis
PG
Ish Smith (Exp)
Lonzo Ball (R - NBA Draft)
Malcolm Delaney (Exp)

SG
Tyreke Evans (FA)
Lou Williams (Exp)
Nik Stauskas (Exp)
Svit Mikhailiuk (R - NBA Draft)

SF
Shabazz Muhammad (Exp)
Tony Snell (Exp)
Brandon Rush (FA)

PF
Kenneth Faried (Exp)
Boris Diaw (Exp)
Anthony Tolliver (Exp)

C
Miles Plumlee (Exp)
Ian Mahinmi (Exp)
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« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2016, 12:31:20 PM »

That is enough talent to at least keep fan interest for year one! Great stuff captain. Cool
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2016, 12:41:22 PM »

Expansion teams are a weird thing. There's usually a combination of a few higher priced or locker-room-cancer vets who can help the team out on the short-term basis, scoring 16-20 ppg, grabbing 8-10 rpg, etc., but who you know you don't much want around in the long term. Then they'll grab a few younger guys who maybe haven't quite hit stride yet and might need a change of scenery. Then a few chemistry guys, truly mediocre players who might not deserve rotation roles but get them anyway because they're just good for the team. And of course, the real centerpieces, which are the rookies they get through the draft to build around for real.

In Year One, it usually makes for some strange, strange rosters.
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« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2016, 12:43:48 PM »

I remember the expansion bobcats in 2004 having Okafor and not much else when I saw the bulls play them.
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2016, 12:52:07 PM »

Expansion teams are prone to this as well... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Timberwolves_failed_relocation_to_New_Orleans
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2016, 02:20:13 PM »

Ugh, that whole era was a nightmare. Brand new team that was so poorly run in the early days, they managed to go from remarkable support early on--the first season, fans packed the Metrodome to watch this team--to abysmal results on and off the court. Luckily right around then, ownership brought in Kevin McHale and Flip Saunders to run the team. They traded away the cancers like JR Rider and Christian Laettner, they drafted Kevin Garnett and Steph Marbury, they traded for Tom Gugliotta, and things started looking up pretty quickly thereafter. We were in the playoffs in, I think, 1996-97. So only three years later.
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« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2016, 03:51:16 PM »

Wasn't musselman fired for not tanking?
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2016, 04:07:13 PM »

Yep. Second year, he finished 10-12 the last 22 games. Not that this is a GOOD record, but it was better than they had any business finishing with that "talent." Worst, it wasn't just about tanking, it was about a specific player: Gerald Glass, a fat-assed, undersized wing player we drafted 20th out of Ole Miss who was supposedly going to evolve into a Mark Aguirre style power-scoring guard. He'd been able to start a few games that winter and scored something like 20+ each game, but then the guy he replaced--Tony Campbell or Ty Corbin--got healthy again and he went back to the bench. He averaged about 7 ppg in about 12 mpg that (rookie) year. The GM wanted him to play a lot, the GM wanted Doug West (then a 2nd year guard out of Providence) to play a lot.

So Musselman got fired after the season.

The Wolves hired Jimmy Rodgers (then Bill Blair, then Sid Lowe), moved a lot of those key players, and were just terrible for five years. The next year, Glass scores 11 ppg in 24 mpg, shooting 44% without shooting 3s. They won 15. The next year, he was down to 5 ppg, being beaten out by Doug West and Chuck Person. Then he was shopped to Detroit, I think. Out of the league shortly thereafter.

Muss ended up coaching South Alabama to the NCAA tourney, if I'm not mistaken.
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« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2016, 04:13:54 PM »

The Bulls had a checkered history until the Jordan era as well. Despite a few good years in the 1970s with Dick Motta as coach, they drafted players in the first round that didn't pan out. Guys like David Greenwood and Orlando Woodridge weren't superstars along with psychopaths like Quentin Dailey. Thankfully they had Reggie Theus to make the games watchable.
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2016, 04:51:28 PM »

Looking back over drafts can be a humbling thing, either for one team over time, or just how each individual draft unfolds. The reality is most picks aren't the best possible pick in hindsight. And a surprisingly large number of (even very high) picks end up average or worse.
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« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2016, 04:54:36 PM »

*cough* Robert Swift and the tons of big men projects the sonics took during their death spiral. A shame their savior of KD only got one season with them.
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2016, 05:00:28 PM »

That's the thing, it was one after another! Swift, Johan Petro, Mohammad Saer Sene, to name a few. Never mind the contracts they doled out to anyone who even pretended to be tall: Jerome James, Jim McIlvaine...
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« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2016, 05:06:34 PM »

Yeah it was an insane era in the NBA. Don't get me started on the Knicks during that era!
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« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2016, 06:06:56 PM »

Historically, everyone has always overreached and overpaid for bigs. Whether it means drafting bad players because they were big, or overpaying bigs in the hopes they might save you from Big Man X. In the late 80s, when the Hawks paid Jon Koncak the then-insane sum of like $3 million for 3 years, something funny like that, because they thought they'd need him to compete against the Bad Boys' bigs. Koncak!?

I would say it's changing now, but then again, look at the contracts that Ian Mahinmi, Timofey Mozgov, and Bismack Biyombo signed this offseason.
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« Reply #69 on: October 15, 2016, 06:34:54 PM »

True that, the game though is moving away from dedicated centers to the point that traditional ones can make a huge difference if used correctly.
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« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2016, 06:50:13 AM »

It's funny in a way, because the media in particular--not the beat writers, so much, but the long-form, analytics-driven writers and podcasters (think Zach Lowe as the leading voice, though their numbers have multiplied) are obsessed with the idea that NBA teams need mobile, rim-protecting centers who can also run to the rim in early offense and can at least roll to the hoop in a 1-5 pick and roll (and ideally pop on the same scenario to hit a jumper). So let's think about how many of those people exist on Planet Earth: a younger Tyson Chandler or Joakim Noah; young prospects like Karl-Anthony Towns, potentially Myles Turner as he improves...then who? There just aren't many guys who fit that model. It's a theoretical player to fit an idealized system, but the theoretical player is a rare combination of skills and traits.

Getting obsessed with platonic ideals in selecting talent is dangerous. It's what led to a bevy of terrible "next Michael Jordans" throughout the '90s, for example. Everyone decided they needed 6-5 to 6-8 super-athletic wings. The world got Harold Miner, LaBradford Smith, or even under-the-radar guys like Kenny Williams. They accomplished ... not a lot. There have been a million attempts to get a new Magic Johnson, that unicorn of a big point guard. (I'm obsessed with this idea, myself.) But who have they been? Guys who were better suited as shooting guards (Penny Hardaway), guys who weren't good (Anton Ponkrashov, Yaroslav Korolev, Chuck Eidson), guys who just had a lot of flaws (Michael Carter Williams, John Salmons, Shaun Livingston). We've even been here before, with centers, when everyone decided big, athletic, and strong "Shaq-like" centers were the rage, favoring physique over skills. The world was thus introduced to pre-fat Jerome James, among others.

So in this era of an idealized, rim-running and -protecting pick-and-roll center who can facilitate a spread offense, who are the players who actually exist in the real world?

Marc Gasol has arguably been the best center in basketball the past half decade. While a great defender based on position, intelligence, and size, he's not really a mobile player or rim protector. His game is best suited for the sort of halfcourt offense the Grizzlies, whether under Lionel Hollins, Dave Joeger, or presumably David Fizdale, incorporated.

Dwight Howard had the athleticism, the mobility, the rim protection. But he scoffed at playing even pick-and-roll basketball in both LA and HOU. He has always wanted to be a post center, despite not being a post center. In theory, his younger, healthier self was the perfect modern center. But his brain never was.

Brook Lopez is a classic, halfcourt post scorer who doesn't defend particularly well.

Al Horford is close to the ideal.

Hassan Whiteside is a stat-chasing athletic freak or a non-player whose previous franchises gave up on him because he doesn't know what he's doing. He lacks any basketball skills. He has lots of talent.

DeAndre Jordan handles the defensive side, but is embarrassing on offense. Just terrible.

On and on. Rudy Goubert, Nikola Vucevic, Tristan Thompson, Jahlil Okafor, Timofey Mozgov, Zaza Pachulia, Jonas Valanciunas, Marcin Gortat, Alex Len, Robin Lopez, Roy Hibbert ... these are NBA starting centers.

Smart organizations find ways to succeed with the talent that exists in the real world, and ideally on their own franchises. Not chasing idealized players to fit in idealized systems that nobody has the personnel to actually run: by that model, even if you run said system, you're maybe going to actualize like 70% of the system's potential (because the players are not optimal for it). Conversely, a well-designed system for real-life players can result in actual fulfillment. Look at how well Rick Carlisle has coached diverse teams to good records and nice playoff runs, for example.

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« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2016, 06:59:27 AM »

Looks like the Bulls and Bucks have pulled off a somewhat rare intradivision trade: point guard Michael Carter-Williams to Chicago for wing Tony Snell. Milwaukee, with Khris Middleton out the season, gets a wing who theoretically can shoot from the outside, while Chicago gets a little more dependability at backup point guard. Sorry, Denzel Valentine, Jerian Grant, and Spencer Dinwiddie.
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« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2016, 01:28:10 PM »

St.Louis with an NBA team Grin the NBA still paying the silnas still cant buy'em off
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« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2016, 01:31:07 PM »

Give Seattle back their team WITH Their FULL History so OKC can make their own legacy

East give a team to any city that doesnt have a professional team from 'the big 4'
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« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2016, 01:33:24 PM »

The funniest legacy of the ABA. Well, except Marvin Barnes. In his entirety.
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