How Good Vibes and I Ran could fit together

[leetwall97]

How about "Our Prayer"?

True. True. It's an intro. An intro to what though?

The album...?

Oh, no. My bad. I mean what song/section comes after it?

[soniclovenoize]

"just because we haven't heard it, doesn't mean it never existed".

Just because we haven't heard it, doesn't mean we should bank on it's existence.

Holidays was found in a box labeled Tune X. Tune X was found in a box labeled Wonderful. I Ran was found in a box labeled Holidays.

So... either they are all connected and it is some vast I Ran the Wonderful Holiday X conspiracy, or someone just misfiled the tapes at some point in the last 50 years. 

Which is more likely?

Also, Do You Like Worms is a part of Heroes and Villains thanks to the Bridge to Indians. Not just Bicycle Rider. Most people misunderstand this. Heroes and Villains was to form some sort of overarching suite that would tie in multiple songs together. H&V would bring in DYLW and DYLW would bring in Cabin Essence, etc. So Bicycle Rider labeled as H&V does not mean that just Bike Rider was absorbed into H&V.

Show me the test mixes of this, and I'll believe it.  Until then, we need to add a big MAYBE to your above claim.  It is reasonable to believe Bridge To Indians was meant to link the chorus that was lifted from Do You Like Worms, because that specific section was embellished as a second part to Heroes and Villains; in contrast it is not reasonable to think it connects to a completely different song because 1) there is no direct evidence of it and 2) we know VDP has stated the album would have been 12 banded tracks, which were not segued into eachother. 

Just because the dots can be connected, doesn't mean they are.  I believe in Occam's Razor: the answer that makes the least amount of assumptions is often the correct one.  While your opinion is valid, I think you are making a lot of assumptions. 

[leetwall97]

Holidays was found in a box labeled Tune X. Tune X was found in a box labeled Wonderful. I Ran was found in a box labeled Holidays.

So... either they are all connected and it is some vast I Ran the Wonderful Holiday X conspiracy, or someone just misfiled the tapes at some point in the last 50 years.  

Which is more likely?

I believe I Ran was meant as an insert piece to Good Vibrations (which is probably why it was never listed). My theory can be heard here.
https://vimeo.com/182498068
Musically it makes since. Like other Wilson comps, the Bass dictates the change.

Show me the test mixes of this, and I'll believe it.  Until then, we need to add a big MAYBE to your above claim.  It is reasonable to believe Bridge To Indians was meant to link the chorus that was lifted from Do You Like Worms, because that specific section was embellished as a second part to Heroes and Villains; in contrast it is not reasonable to think it connects to a completely different song because 1) there is no direct evidence of it and 2) we know VDP has stated the album would have been 12 banded tracks, which were not segued into eachother.  

I'm just going off what musical evidence is left. Bridge to Indians interrupts the 2nd Verse (like the Part 2 insert in the Smiley Smile Version), and takes us to Do You Like Worms Part 1. Bridge to Indians can't go straight to Bicycle Rider because Bicycle Rider is in the key of Gm, while Bridge to Indians lands on a C, which is a note not contained within the Gm chord. Do You Like Worms begins on an F, and the F chord contains a C. My test mix example can be found here:
https://vimeo.com/182612766

Bridge to Indians WAS found in a test mix. They remastered it and put it on the Smile Sessions Box Set here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZDgoGrWFOM&index=45&list=PLApyhECLlb9-LAxB50ur_2CqhER-8jJBY

And who cares what Van Dyke said. He didn't even know how Heroes and Villains went until Brian played it for him at the Humble Harv' session. He was as much in the dark about the music as Brian's Entourage was.

Just because the dots can be connected, doesn't mean they are.  I believe in Occam's Razor: the answer that makes the least amount of assumptions is often the correct one.  While your opinion is valid, I think you are making a lot of assumptions.  

With an attitude like that, you'll never find an answer. Only through constant experimentation can we get answers. And I do agree with the assumption bit. I am making them. But what else can I do?

[leetwall97]

.

[soniclovenoize]

I believe I Ran was meant as an insert piece to Good Vibrations (which is probably why it was never listed). My theory can be heard here.
https://vimeo.com/182498068
Musically it makes since. Like other Wilson comps, the Bass dictates the change.

Yeah, I listened to your edit earlier.  In my opinion it's possible, but not probable.  They recorded vocals on 10/13/66 for I Ran (formerly Untitled Song #1) three days after the Good Vibrations single was released.  That would mean Brian was still working on Good Vibrations three days after it's release date.  I don't find that probable, but let's play devil's advocate and assume that's what happened--- Well, that's a very interesting factoid, that one of The Beach Boys' most beloved songs and one of the greatest of that decade was still being worked on after it was released.  Surely, that was a story that would have been remembered and told, by anyone close to him?  Also if it's true, why is I Ran subtitled "formerly Untitled Song #1" instead of "formerly Good Vibrations Insert"? 

My test mix example can be found here:
https://vimeo.com/182612766

So in this case, the song Heroes and Villains is only 50 seconds long? 

Bridge to Indians WAS found in a test mix.

No I mean a test mix of Heroes and Villains and Do You Like Worms as one big piece. 

And who cares what Van Dyke said. He didn't even know how Heroes and Villains went until Brian played it for him at the Humble Harv' session. He was as much in the dark about the music as Brian's Entourage was.

Really?

[leetwall97]

Yeah, I listened to your edit earlier.  In my opinion it's possible, but not probable.  They recorded vocals on 10/8/66 for I Ran (formerly Untitled Song #1) and two days later the Good Vibrations single was released.  That would mean Brian was still working on Good Vibrations two days before it's release date.  I don't find that probable, but let's play devil's advocate and assume that's what happened--- Well, that's a very interesting factoid, that one of The Beach Boys' most beloved songs and one of the greatest of that decade was still being worked on while it's being released.  Surely, that was a story that would have been remembered and told, by anyone?  Also if it's true, why is I Ran subtitled "formerly Untitled Song #1" instead of "formerly Good Vibrations Insert"?  

Brilliant point you made on the title of I Ran! All Brian said was "We have no title". But maybe he said something different on the vocal overdub tapes. But the fact that he wrote a song based off the musical idea introduced in Good Vibrations I think means something. It's an insert piece! And Brian wasn't working on GV 2 days before it was released. He finished tracking the song on September 5th. I Ran was recorded August 12th incidentally.  And it's fantastic that I Ran had vocals recorded right before GV was released! It proves I Ran wasn't a B-Side attempt. This also proves that Good Vibrations would do with I Ran what H&V does with DYLW (on the album of course). You see how this literally is a teenage SYMPHONY to God?

No I mean a test mix of Heroes and Villains and Do You Like Worms as one big piece.  

You're asking for the smoking gun at that point. That's like I said earlier with Wonderful and it's inserts. We have 'em, just not the mixes of 'em.

And who cares what Van Dyke said. He didn't even know how Heroes and Villains went until Brian played it for him at the Humble Harv' session. He was as much in the dark about the music as Brian's Entourage was.

Really?

Really. When Darian played Van Dyke Holidays in 2004, Van claimed he never heard it before. He played Vibraphones on it!

My test mix example can be found here:
https://vimeo.com/182612766

So in this case, the song Heroes and Villains is only 50 seconds long?  

Oh no. This is where it gets interesting. Somehow after DYLW part 1, we'd find ourselves listening to All Day, which then goes into Pickup to 3rd Verse which goes back into the H&V verse (specifically, the third)!

[soniclovenoize]

Brilliant point you made on the title of I Ran! All Brian said was "We have no title". But maybe he said something different on the vocal overdub tapes. But the fact that he wrote a song based off the musical idea introduced in Good Vibrations I think means something. It's an insert piece!

I'm sorry, I'm not hearing the musical similarities between Good Vibrations and Look.  They are in different keys and don't seem to be the same chord sequence at all.  But i think most importantly is that Look is a self contained song with several sections, itself having inserts (or at least an interlude).  It seems odd that an insert piece would have several repeating sections within itself. 

That's like I said earlier with Wonderful and it's inserts. We have 'em, just not the mixes of 'em.

What are you referencing here?  I might have overlooked it but I haven't seen a Wonderful insert aside from the "mamamamama" tag for the Rock Me Henry version (which only appeared in that version rather than the other three versions). 

[leetwall97]

I'm sorry, I'm not hearing the musical similarities between Good Vibrations and Look.  They are in different keys and don't seem to be the same chord sequence at all.  But i think most importantly is that Look is a self contained song with several sections, itself having inserts (or at least an interlude).  It seems odd that an insert piece would have several repeating sections within itself.  

The tag section in Good Vibrations has only two instruments in it: a bass and a tambourine. The Bass starts out by playing F# 4 times, then G#, then A# and then back to G#. The Bass note for the opening section of I Ran is F#. The opening section of I Ran has the exact same tempo as the tag in GV. If you could, you could mute the bass in the tag so only the tambourine plays through, and it matches up perfectly with I Ran's tempo.

It seems odd that an insert piece would have several repeating sections within itself.  

It is odd because it's not really an insert. I literally meant the word "piece" when I said insert piece. A piece as in a piece in a symphony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hMjxnwig0o
Take this for example. This Russian Dance is just a piece in the Nutcracker ballet (a 2 movement one at that). We all know the famous piece "the Nutcracker". We hear it all the time around the holidays. But in it's entirety, it contains MANY other various pieces and sections. I believe this is what Smile was to be like. Starting with Good Vibrations. And yes, I Ran (like the Russian dance) has many repeated sections. So maybe that explains why I Ran was never titled as "Good Vibrations Insert Piece". Plus, the last thing Brian needed was more tape labeled "Good Vibrations".

That's like I said earlier with Wonderful and it's inserts. We have 'em, just not the mixes of 'em.

What are you referencing here?  I might have overlooked it but I haven't seen a Wonderful insert aside from the "mamamamama" tag for the Rock Me Henry version (which only appeared in that version rather than the other three versions).  

He gives speeches
But they put him back in bed
Where he wrote his satire

And I've yet to figure out what Version 3's insert was. I'm suspecting that "walk Child" piano bit. But I haven't gone to the piano and checked the chords yet because I'm still trying to figure out which version of Wonderful to use, since Version 1 was labeled as a B side for Single material.

[soniclovenoize]

The tag section in Good Vibrations has only two instruments in it: a bass and a tambourine. The Bass starts out by playing F# 4 times, then G#, then A# and then back to G#. The Bass note for the opening section of I Ran is F#. The opening section of I Ran has the exact same tempo as the tag in GV. If you could, you could mute the bass in the tag so only the tambourine plays through, and it matches up perfectly with I Ran's tempo.

Oh wait, I see what you are saying.  The "na na na na na na" melody in Good Vibrations at 3:13 is similar to the glockenspiel melody in Look at :042, and they're both in F#.  That's very interesting.  It still defies reasonable logic that it was intended to be a part of Good Vibrations.  He could have been echoing a melodic theme, or it's just coincidence. 

Or another explanation is that Brian stole that melodic bit from Look and used it in Good Vibrations, since they tracked those vocals on 8/24/66, just twelve days after tracking Look.  That would explain why Look bit the dust for Smile, even after a set of vocals were recorded. 

[leetwall97]

Oh wait, I see what you are saying.  The "na na na na na na" melody in Good Vibrations at 3:13 is similar to the glockenspiel melody in Look at :042, and they're both in F#.  That's very interesting.  It still defies reasonable logic that it was intended to be a part of Good Vibrations.  He could have been echoing a melodic theme, or it's just coincidence. 

Exactly! And yeah he could just be echoing the theme. It's amazing because that's how a symphony works. It hit me around late July that when Brian said he was writing a teenage symphony to god, he really mean the symphony part! And that is so exciting because we've had sooooo many rock operas. But we've never had a pop symphony! And speaking of reasonable logic, who saw the organ part in GV coming? It hits you out of left field. It's unpredictable, and that's why it's exciting.

Or another explanation is that Brian stole that melodic bit from Look and used it in Good Vibrations, since they tracked those vocals on 8/24/66, just twelve days after tracking Look.  That would explain why Look bit the dust for Smile, even after a set of vocals were recorded. 

Nope. Brian mixed the instrumental track of GV on September 5th. If that was the case, then Good Vibrations would go straight to the fade after the organ part. It's a nice theory, but the only problem is that it brings us back to the drawing board and it pulls out that "Brian cannibalized Smile" card. And I don't think Look bit the dust for Smile. It was mixed into Good Vibes, vocals were recorded, and then it wasn't mention again. At the moment I am toying with other pieces that could also fit into GV (specifically Wonderful v2), but I'd rather test that out first before I publish anything.

[jiggy22]

This also proves that Good Vibrations would do with I Ran what H&V does with DYLW (on the album of course). You see how this literally is a teenage SYMPHONY to God?

It's often pretty futile to use the word "prove" when talking about SMiLE. Knowing as little as we do about Brian's original intentions, it's damn near possible to come to any solid conclusions based on the info available. For all we know, Brian could've just junked the whole "Teenage Symphony to God" idea at some point and just thrown on 12 tracks in a straightforward order, hypothetically speaking. I definitely have fun putting together my own mixes and whatnot, but I find it tiresome to endless try and speculate what it all exactly sounded like at one point in time. I guess I'm just more of a pessimist when it comes to SMiLE!

[leetwall97]

It's often pretty futile to use the word "prove" when talking about SMiLE. Knowing as little as we do about Brian's original intentions, it's damn near possible to come to any solid conclusions based on the info available. For all we know, Brian could've just junked the whole "Teenage Symphony to God" idea at some point and just thrown on 12 tracks in a straightforward order, hypothetically speaking. I definitely have fun putting together my own mixes and whatnot, but I find it tiresome to endless try and speculate what it all exactly sounded like at one point in time. I guess I'm just more of a pessimist when it comes to SMiLE!

I just like to use the word "prove" so I can get excited. It helps me feel like I'm making progress, and it keeps me from becoming pessimistic. I believe that every single thing recorded for Smile was meant to work with something else. I believe in the notion that Brian would only go into the studio if her knew how the pieces would fit together.

[soniclovenoize]

Nope. Brian mixed the instrumental track of GV on September 5th. If that was the case, then Good Vibrations would go straight to the fade after the organ part. It's a nice theory, but the only problem is that it brings us back to the drawing board and it pulls out that "Brian cannibalized Smile" card.

Not sure what you mean.  If GV was finished in early September, then he could have stolen the melody from Look, which was recorded in August. 

[leetwall97]

Not sure what you mean.  If GV was finished in early September, then he could have stolen the melody from Look, which was recorded in August. 

Sorry! Didn't mean to confuse. What I meant is Brian assembled the instrumental track of Good Vibes on September 5th. The vocal sessions proceeded afterwards, so no the song wasn't technically finished. I was just trying to prove that Good Vibrations had the "na na na na" melody first.

[soniclovenoize]

Sorry! Didn't mean to confuse. What I meant is Brian assembled the instrumental track of Good Vibes on September 5th. The vocal sessions proceeded afterwards, so no the song wasn't technically finished. I was just trying to prove that Good Vibrations had the "na na na na" melody first.

When did it have the na na na na melody, September?

Look had it in August... 

[leetwall97]

When did it have the na na na na melody, September?

Look had it in August... 

The section in GV we keep referring to is known as Part D / Fade Sequence. The section was recorded on May 27th 1966.

[soniclovenoize]

When did it have the na na na na melody, September?

Look had it in August... 

The section in GV we keep referring to is known as Part D / Fade Sequence. The section was recorded on May 27th 1966.

The vocals or the baking track?  According to the Sessionogrophy, the actual vocals (with the na na na melody) were tracked between 8/24 and 9/1, after Look was tracked on 8/12

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Have I mentioned I'm really digging this thread?

[Nile]

I believe I Ran was meant as an insert piece to Good Vibrations (which is probably why it was never listed). My theory can be heard here.
https://vimeo.com/182498068
Musically it makes since. Like other Wilson comps, the Bass dictates the change.

Yeah, I listened to your edit earlier.  In my opinion it's possible, but not probable.  They recorded vocals on 10/13/66 for I Ran (formerly Untitled Song #1) three days after the Good Vibrations single was released.  That would mean Brian was still working on Good Vibrations three days after it's release date.  I don't find that probable, but let's play devil's advocate and assume that's what happened--- Well, that's a very interesting factoid, that one of The Beach Boys' most beloved songs and one of the greatest of that decade was still being worked on after it was released.  Surely, that was a story that would have been remembered and told, by anyone close to him?  Also if it's true, why is I Ran subtitled "formerly Untitled Song #1" instead of "formerly Good Vibrations Insert"?  

My test mix example can be found here:
https://vimeo.com/182612766

So in this case, the song Heroes and Villains is only 50 seconds long?  

Bridge to Indians WAS found in a test mix.

No I mean a test mix of Heroes and Villains and Do You Like Worms as one big piece.  

And who cares what Van Dyke said. He didn't even know how Heroes and Villains went until Brian played it for him at the Humble Harv' session. He was as much in the dark about the music as Brian's Entourage was.

Really?

I'm with you on this, Sonic! It's ok to try to play with various pieces of Smile puzzle, and I'm first to listen and praise any effert like Lee managed with GV/Look mashup. Others have done similar things (like Seltaeb) and I love to listen such mashups, but to claim that BW did something similar and that every such mix is lost/erased..I don't know...

Let's play with Smile tracks/sectons, and leave it at that, 'cause like M. Linnet said there was no Smile album in 1966/1967... maybe just an idea of how it could all fit together in Brian's head...

[Dove Nested Towers]

How about "Our Prayer"?

True. True. It's an intro. An intro to what though?

The album...?

You feeling that acid yet?

I feel great...

Next?

[leetwall97]

When did it have the na na na na melody, September?

Look had it in August... 

The section in GV we keep referring to is known as Part D / Fade Sequence. The section was recorded on May 27th 1966.

The vocals or the baking track?  According to the Sessionogrophy, the actual vocals (with the na na na melody) were tracked between 8/24 and 9/1, after Look was tracked on 8/12

Just the instrumental. The vocal sessions went into full swing after Sep. 5th. But Brian had the melody by May.

[soniclovenoize]

He had the na na na melody before it was recorded?  Where can I hear this? 

[leetwall97]

He had the na na na melody before it was recorded?  Where can I hear this?  

Hi sonic! Actually, you know, he didn't have the "Na na na na na" melody at first. The first thing recorded on that section was the "'Te-Tay-Te-Tatiiioooonnnnnsss" vocals. By my ear, I think that melody line fits over the Intro to I Ran pretty well.

One thing I'd like to bring up is why the vocal track for I Ran was listed as a minute longer than the song. Was there some kind of insert to it? There are pauses in the song. The first 12th street rag section going into the verse. And then the 2nd (less booming) 12th street rag section going into the chorus. Are we missing something?

The released edit of Good Vibes wasn't the final edit also. Brian tinkered with it more and added more material and eventually realized he couldn't top that edit.

Not sure what you mean.  If GV was finished in early September, then he could have stolen the melody from Look, which was recorded in August.  

It's interesting to note what other material was recorded around the time Good Vibes was being finished. I Ran, He Gives Speeches and Wonderful. Wonderful was noted as material for a Single (could it've been planned as the B-Side? That would've been fantastic!) I think all of these pieces were recorded for Good Vibes.

I think He Gives Speeches was another idea for a Bridge in Good Vibes. It's the same progression as the Organ Bridge. It was recorded after Brian gave up on the fuzz bass bridge and before the organ bridge. Using the information Brian revealed in his new book, I'd imagine he would've used an eltro to raise the pitch up to Bb and bring it back intro the reprise chorus. I'm just amazed though at how crazy it sounds (lyrically). How could it've fit into Good Vibes??

In the end, Brian decided not to use I Ran, He Gives Speeches or Wonderful for the single, so they were left over for either being included on the album or not.

I'm with you on this, Sonic! It's ok to try to play with various pieces of Smile puzzle, and I'm first to listen and praise any effert like Lee managed with GV/Look mashup. Others have done similar things (like Seltaeb) and I love to listen such mashups, but to claim that BW did something similar and that every such mix is lost/erased..I don't know...

Let's play with Smile tracks/sectons, and leave it at that, 'cause like M. Linnet said there was no Smile album in 1966/1967... maybe just an idea of how it could all fit together in Brian's head...

Totally agree. And thanks!