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drbeachboy
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« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2016, 01:27:37 PM »

Just glad to hear that you weren't mistreated by anyone while you were in PSF.

Good luck walking on the eggshells around that issue...let's see how fast those bans come down if anything even close to what happened here starts going down. LOL
Thanks!  Smiley
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2016, 01:50:05 PM »

My issue is and has been let's be honest about the way things went down. Number one, it's not hard to do if people simply told the truth, and number two saying things that are untrue (or hiding behind aliases instead of saying things as the person everyone knows) puts a dark cloud of dishonesty over whatever is trying to be accomplished. Maybe that's OK with some, I wouldn't be surprised considering the history behind all of these issues.
Thing is that there are a lot of people with different motives and different experiences. So, there may be some specific instances of untrue things that you're thinking of, but those don't necessarily factor into each person's actions. So when you speak of "the truth," it may not be pertinent to everyone, and when someone doesn't know specifically what you're talking about, it can be interpreted as insulting to those who have nothing to do with what you're talking about.

I'm going to add - there's a specific argument about moderation. It's mainly between you and Drbeachboy. I'm sure there are a lot of posters who agree with Drbeachboy and a lot who agree with you. And I think you are right that there are some false things being said about the moderation process here.

But, I think some people moved boards for different reasons. I would have considered moving myself if I thought the population there was one I'd get along with better than the one here, regardless of moderation. Moderation isn't my problem. So my problem isn't the only problem, but moderation isn't the only issue.

It's not strictly about moderation and it never has been, there are issues far beyond that, and that's why a lot of what's being said rings untrue if not dishonest. If that's being too obtuse, those who know what's going on will know what those issues are but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a public explanation.

The reason why moderation is being used so prominently as either an excuse, a reason, or even a justification is because the real issues are not what some would like to see public.

Just a year ago it was a few board members being blamed for the board going to hell and issuing lifetime bans was the elixir to fix everything, then there was the issue of negativity toward certain things being discussed, then it was something else, and prior to that it was whatever was the scapegoat at the time. Much of it was a means to an end that I don't recall anyone being willing to step up and identify. Then it became the moderation and moderators as the reason why all went to hell.

Ever hear the term "let's throw it at the wall and see what sticks."? That floor under that wall is littered with things that didn't stick, namely because they weren't the real causes no matter how hard the effort was made to convince the board members that they were. When the "complain about and to the mods" thread didn't achieve the desired results, a new board shows up with a similar platform as this one, and a handful of banned members being lauded and welcomed back with open arms.

So the issues were not entirely what Dirk has been telling everyone they are or were, and the board was not set up entirely for the reasons being given. Maybe those involved are being duped as well, or maybe they were in fact given the full rundown, either way it's not honest to keep pushing this latest blame onto moderators when - unless Dirk simply has no idea what's going on or is being duped as others have been - the other issues are still present and accounted for.

Some people need a podium and microphone more than others and for vastly different reasons, if one venue cuts that mic they'll search for another venue to broadcast from.

Signed, your friendly neighborhood "Super Moderator", always vigilant.  Smiley  LOL  Razz  Wink Shocked

But the problem is - to use me as an example that may apply to many people - I don't really know what you're talking about. You refer to secrets being kept, but I don't know the secrets. You may be right about causes and underlying things and even perhaps what causes my experience; but what my experience actually is, is that two sets of people have been battling since before I came. Mike Love seems to provide sort of the fault-line of that battle, but the specifics aren't always (often but not always) about him.
So my problems aren't directly to do with whatever the underlying stuff is. My problem is that all this quarreling, whatever it's about, is unpleasant. So, if people from one side of that fault line, and those who feel more comfortable with them, are on one board, and the other side of the fault line and those who are comfortable with them on another; and if the real fault line people stick to their own board and leave peace at the other, and the not-fault-line people move peacefully back and forth if they wish, from my perspective it all seems good. I can go to a message board and not encounter, nor feel drawn into, constant quarreling.
Given that, I'm not going to say that if some individuals have a problem with each other, they shouldn't be free to hack it out; but the implication that everyone is engaged in one way or another with that problem is untrue. If I had gone to the other board, it wouldn't have been because of whatever this underlying stuff is, it would simply be have been because I like some of the posters over there a lot.

There are a population of people here who have nothing to do with whatever this is about; and they shouldn't be branded.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 01:54:19 PM by Emily » Logged
Cam Mott
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« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2016, 06:44:42 PM »

Maybe you can get Andrew to tell everyone what he said about David Beard.

Said to who, and said where?
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« Reply #103 on: June 05, 2016, 02:10:15 AM »

The new forum is indeed quite negative about this place and the people here. I got the distinct impression that if I joined I would be unwelcome, simply because of the fact that I would be thought of as "one of them".
You can feel however you want, but 90% of our membership belong to both places. If you feel funny about that many of the members then I suppose you would feel the same about them here, no?
Actually, the only member that I can honestly say I have  an overly negative view of is Mike's Beard. As for the others, I'm not privy to the exact circumstances of their banning from this board to have enough reason to not want.them here.
Ok. Sorry, I misunderstood your meaning. So, only one person who you had yet to encounter there made you feel unwelcome? I thought maybe a few folks were were getting on you or something after you posted. I mean, if you have an issue with a particular person, I understand that perfectly. Just glad to hear that you weren't mistreated by anyone while you in PSF.
I actually haven't joined. I meant that a few people over there give me the vibe that they wouldn't be to happy with SS members joining, simply because they would be  considered  "one of them"( I.e. one of a group of people driving people away, forcing them to create their own place.). I didn't mean to single myself out personally as one who would be unwelcome. I just meant that a certain few over at PSF can make a guy nervous over whether it's ok to "join their club". Did any of that make sense?  LOL
Thanks for the concern, though.  Smiley

There are plenty of SS members there. I would suspect, despite the paranoid hyperbole, that only a few have had bans here. How many exactly, I wonder...
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« Reply #104 on: June 05, 2016, 09:59:43 AM »

One feature I noticed over there is that there is a 'banned members' section. Tells when the ban occured for what reason, and when it's lifted. Not that it changes anything in terms of how banning occurs, but still a good feature to have I think, in that it brings a bit of clarity to the process. police
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« Reply #105 on: June 05, 2016, 10:19:10 AM »

I actually haven't joined. I meant that a few people over there give me the vibe that they wouldn't be to happy with SS members joining, simply because they would be  considered  "one of them"( I.e. one of a group of people driving people away, forcing them to create their own place.). I didn't mean to single myself out personally as one who would be unwelcome. I just meant that a certain few over at PSF can make a guy nervous over whether it's ok to "join their club". Did any of that make sense?  LOL
Thanks for the concern, though.  Smiley

I'm a member of both forums and have not once felt unwelcome on the Pet Sounds Forum. I think you might be a smidge paranoid about the whole thing, but hey...horses for courses.
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« Reply #106 on: June 05, 2016, 10:28:45 AM »

I actually haven't joined. I meant that a few people over there give me the vibe that they wouldn't be to happy with SS members joining, simply because they would be  considered  "one of them"( I.e. one of a group of people driving people away, forcing them to create their own place.). I didn't mean to single myself out personally as one who would be unwelcome. I just meant that a certain few over at PSF can make a guy nervous over whether it's ok to "join their club". Did any of that make sense?  LOL
Thanks for the concern, though.  Smiley

I'm a member of both forums and have not once felt unwelcome on the Pet Sounds Forum. I think you might be a smidge paranoid about the whole thing, but hey...horses for courses.
I think you've got the precise qualities to be welcomed there, so that doesn't really establish anything counter to what Ognir Rrats says.
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Douchepool
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« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2016, 10:30:27 AM »

And may I ask what said precise qualities are?
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« Reply #108 on: June 05, 2016, 10:40:27 AM »

And may I ask what said precise qualities are?
As I said above, even if a quarrel is not actually about Mike Love, there seems to be a fault line where one side of the quarrel will be people who frequently take a stance of defending ML and the other is people who frequently take a stance of criticizing him.
I think the bulk of the 'defending' people have moved there and the bulk of the 'critcizing' people have stayed here. Other people, of which there are many, have sorted themselves according to their comfort level with the individuals of those groups.
There are some people who could legitimately go back and forth without making waves in either place.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 10:44:30 AM by Emily » Logged
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2016, 11:00:35 AM »

My issue is and has been let's be honest about the way things went down. Number one, it's not hard to do if people simply told the truth, and number two saying things that are untrue (or hiding behind aliases instead of saying things as the person everyone knows) puts a dark cloud of dishonesty over whatever is trying to be accomplished. Maybe that's OK with some, I wouldn't be surprised considering the history behind all of these issues.
Thing is that there are a lot of people with different motives and different experiences. So, there may be some specific instances of untrue things that you're thinking of, but those don't necessarily factor into each person's actions. So when you speak of "the truth," it may not be pertinent to everyone, and when someone doesn't know specifically what you're talking about, it can be interpreted as insulting to those who have nothing to do with what you're talking about.

I'm going to add - there's a specific argument about moderation. It's mainly between you and Drbeachboy. I'm sure there are a lot of posters who agree with Drbeachboy and a lot who agree with you. And I think you are right that there are some false things being said about the moderation process here.

But, I think some people moved boards for different reasons. I would have considered moving myself if I thought the population there was one I'd get along with better than the one here, regardless of moderation. Moderation isn't my problem. So my problem isn't the only problem, but moderation isn't the only issue.

It's not strictly about moderation and it never has been, there are issues far beyond that, and that's why a lot of what's being said rings untrue if not dishonest. If that's being too obtuse, those who know what's going on will know what those issues are but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a public explanation.

The reason why moderation is being used so prominently as either an excuse, a reason, or even a justification is because the real issues are not what some would like to see public.

Just a year ago it was a few board members being blamed for the board going to hell and issuing lifetime bans was the elixir to fix everything, then there was the issue of negativity toward certain things being discussed, then it was something else, and prior to that it was whatever was the scapegoat at the time. Much of it was a means to an end that I don't recall anyone being willing to step up and identify. Then it became the moderation and moderators as the reason why all went to hell.

Ever hear the term "let's throw it at the wall and see what sticks."? That floor under that wall is littered with things that didn't stick, namely because they weren't the real causes no matter how hard the effort was made to convince the board members that they were. When the "complain about and to the mods" thread didn't achieve the desired results, a new board shows up with a similar platform as this one, and a handful of banned members being lauded and welcomed back with open arms.

So the issues were not entirely what Dirk has been telling everyone they are or were, and the board was not set up entirely for the reasons being given. Maybe those involved are being duped as well, or maybe they were in fact given the full rundown, either way it's not honest to keep pushing this latest blame onto moderators when - unless Dirk simply has no idea what's going on or is being duped as others have been - the other issues are still present and accounted for.

Some people need a podium and microphone more than others and for vastly different reasons, if one venue cuts that mic they'll search for another venue to broadcast from.

Signed, your friendly neighborhood "Super Moderator", always vigilant.  Smiley  LOL  Razz  Wink Shocked

But the problem is - to use me as an example that may apply to many people - I don't really know what you're talking about. You refer to secrets being kept, but I don't know the secrets. You may be right about causes and underlying things and even perhaps what causes my experience; but what my experience actually is, is that two sets of people have been battling since before I came. Mike Love seems to provide sort of the fault-line of that battle, but the specifics aren't always (often but not always) about him.
So my problems aren't directly to do with whatever the underlying stuff is. My problem is that all this quarreling, whatever it's about, is unpleasant. So, if people from one side of that fault line, and those who feel more comfortable with them, are on one board, and the other side of the fault line and those who are comfortable with them on another; and if the real fault line people stick to their own board and leave peace at the other, and the not-fault-line people move peacefully back and forth if they wish, from my perspective it all seems good. I can go to a message board and not encounter, nor feel drawn into, constant quarreling.
Given that, I'm not going to say that if some individuals have a problem with each other, they shouldn't be free to hack it out; but the implication that everyone is engaged in one way or another with that problem is untrue. If I had gone to the other board, it wouldn't have been because of whatever this underlying stuff is, it would simply be have been because I like some of the posters over there a lot.

There are a population of people here who have nothing to do with whatever this is about; and they shouldn't be branded.

Disclaimer: I'm not literally comparing the two situations.

But I ask this: Who knew what was happening with the Watergate-related issues until Woodward and Bernstein started investigating and writing articles about it? Who would know what was happening if Woodward's source "Deep Throat" didn't tip Woodward off and lead him in directions previously confidential and very secret? Who would know about the audio tapes and the missing minutes of those tapes until people with knowledge of it brought it forward? Or even the issues John Dean and others blew the whistle on?

So you had a situation where for several years this chicanery and deception was going on all the way up the chain to the Oval Office, and not only were hundreds of White House staffers unaware of it, but millions of voters had no idea either until the articles and testimony started to come out publicly.

Did any of the articles or reports blame staffers like the WH chef or members of the WH typing pools and operations staff like the mailroom for any of it if they simply had no idea because it was being kept hidden under many levels of administration and beaurocracy even within the administration? No, because to do so wouldn't be fair to people who had absolutely no idea.

It would also be like blaming a random high school kid who got a job working at a restaurant washing dishes for not knowing the restaurant was a criminal front for drugs, organized crime, etc. Happens every week. No one except those directly involved would have knowledge of what was going on.

What's the phrase..."just sayin'".  Smiley

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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #110 on: June 05, 2016, 11:02:11 AM »

Maybe you can get Andrew to tell everyone what he said about David Beard.

Said to who, and said where?

Ask him.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #111 on: June 05, 2016, 11:03:29 AM »

I think that's what I was just sayin' too.
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« Reply #112 on: June 05, 2016, 11:11:06 AM »

I think that's what I was just sayin' too.

If that were the impression I got, I would not have replied as I did. The issues that have been bubbling under this and other forums have been bubbling since before I became a moderator here, and before all of the talk about who is to blame for whatever it is they're being blamed for. And for whatever reasons are or were being given for new boards being created.

I have said before, and I'll say it again: There is a history of people being duped, and people being thrown under the bus when a convenient scapegoat is needed. Loyalty unfortunately has not always been a governing principle at play in these things. Nor has honesty. Maybe the word is "cutthroat"?

I am sure there are many fans who have no skin in any of these games, and who just are doing their normal things as fans visiting these boards. But like the kid washing dishes after school for a mob-run restaurant or the guy sorting incoming mail in the Nixon White House, they may not know what is going on, and if they get caught up in any of it or are duped in some way, I feel bad for them because it's not their fault. For those doing the using and the duping, it is their fault.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #113 on: June 05, 2016, 11:11:57 AM »

  I can't seem to register on that board...keep getting "invalid user name" or "user name unavailable" whether with "Moon Dawg" or another moniker. Guess I'm Dumb... Grin
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« Reply #114 on: June 05, 2016, 11:29:32 AM »

 I can't seem to register on that board...keep getting "invalid user name" or "user name unavailable" whether with "Moon Dawg" or another moniker. Guess I'm Dumb... Grin

Try a username without a space in it?
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« Reply #115 on: June 05, 2016, 11:30:54 AM »

Try contacting the people who run that board off this board? It's their project.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #116 on: June 05, 2016, 11:31:48 AM »

And I'm still waiting for that personal invitation so many people got to join that board.   Cool Guy

You'd almost think that I'm not someone desired there.  But maybe I'm just paranoid. Uh-huh...

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« Reply #117 on: June 05, 2016, 11:35:06 AM »

I think that's what I was just sayin' too.

If that were the impression I got, I would not have replied as I did. The issues that have been bubbling under this and other forums have been bubbling since before I became a moderator here, and before all of the talk about who is to blame for whatever it is they're being blamed for. And for whatever reasons are or were being given for new boards being created.

I have said before, and I'll say it again: There is a history of people being duped, and people being thrown under the bus when a convenient scapegoat is needed. Loyalty unfortunately has not always been a governing principle at play in these things. Nor has honesty. Maybe the word is "cutthroat"?

I am sure there are many fans who have no skin in any of these games, and who just are doing their normal things as fans visiting these boards. But like the kid washing dishes after school for a mob-run restaurant or the guy sorting incoming mail in the Nixon White House, they may not know what is going on, and if they get caught up in any of it or are duped in some way, I feel bad for them because it's not their fault. For those doing the using and the duping, it is their fault.
Well, it's clearly not the impression you got, but my impression of what you're saying is that it's the same as what I'm saying - there are a number of people who have nothing to do with this.
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« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2016, 11:37:26 AM »

And I'm still waiting for that personal invitation so many people got to join that board.   Cool Guy

You'd almost think that I'm not someone desired there.  But maybe I'm just paranoid. Uh-huh...

Who was sending these invitations, I wonder. They must have had a personal interest in setting things up.

Yes, I'm being very facetious and sarcastic.

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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2016, 11:39:42 AM »


It's unfortunate that there are people who, when they have a peaceful option, won't take it.

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« Reply #120 on: June 05, 2016, 11:40:55 AM »

I think that's what I was just sayin' too.

If that were the impression I got, I would not have replied as I did. The issues that have been bubbling under this and other forums have been bubbling since before I became a moderator here, and before all of the talk about who is to blame for whatever it is they're being blamed for. And for whatever reasons are or were being given for new boards being created.

I have said before, and I'll say it again: There is a history of people being duped, and people being thrown under the bus when a convenient scapegoat is needed. Loyalty unfortunately has not always been a governing principle at play in these things. Nor has honesty. Maybe the word is "cutthroat"?

I am sure there are many fans who have no skin in any of these games, and who just are doing their normal things as fans visiting these boards. But like the kid washing dishes after school for a mob-run restaurant or the guy sorting incoming mail in the Nixon White House, they may not know what is going on, and if they get caught up in any of it or are duped in some way, I feel bad for them because it's not their fault. For those doing the using and the duping, it is their fault.
Well, it's clearly not the impression you got, but my impression of what you're saying is that it's the same as what I'm saying - there are a number of people who have nothing to do with this.


I can see that, yes. I may have worded it a bit differently than what I had wanted.

Maybe a revised summary I'd offer is a version of the old phrase, just because people are unaware something is happening does not prove it's not happening. And if there are people who have no idea, they shouldn't be at fault for believing what they have been led to believe.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #121 on: June 05, 2016, 11:41:52 AM »

 I can't seem to register on that board...keep getting "invalid user name" or "user name unavailable" whether with "Moon Dawg" or another moniker. Guess I'm Dumb... Grin

Try a username without a space in it?

  I'm in now. Thanks
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« Reply #122 on: June 05, 2016, 11:43:39 AM »

Iain Lee's posts are exactly the sort that would be banned at the other forum. That they aren't banned here is exactly the reason why this board will continue to have 'drama' while the other will remain a peaceful club.
While I'm not necessarily supporting banning him or adopting the position of the other board on banning, because I like to think that people won't make trouble just for the sake of it, I'm afraid many people do.
It's unfortunate that there are people who, when they have a peaceful option, won't take it.

The kudos I will give him is for admitting part of the type of PM personal attack bullshit that has been ripping this board apart for longer than anyone would like to admit.

Maybe it will inspire others who got such PM's or even those that attempted to "correct" someone's opinions that may have been considered unwelcome opinions to step forward.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
Emily
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« Reply #123 on: June 05, 2016, 11:46:11 AM »

I think that's what I was just sayin' too.

If that were the impression I got, I would not have replied as I did. The issues that have been bubbling under this and other forums have been bubbling since before I became a moderator here, and before all of the talk about who is to blame for whatever it is they're being blamed for. And for whatever reasons are or were being given for new boards being created.

I have said before, and I'll say it again: There is a history of people being duped, and people being thrown under the bus when a convenient scapegoat is needed. Loyalty unfortunately has not always been a governing principle at play in these things. Nor has honesty. Maybe the word is "cutthroat"?

I am sure there are many fans who have no skin in any of these games, and who just are doing their normal things as fans visiting these boards. But like the kid washing dishes after school for a mob-run restaurant or the guy sorting incoming mail in the Nixon White House, they may not know what is going on, and if they get caught up in any of it or are duped in some way, I feel bad for them because it's not their fault. For those doing the using and the duping, it is their fault.
Well, it's clearly not the impression you got, but my impression of what you're saying is that it's the same as what I'm saying - there are a number of people who have nothing to do with this.


I can see that, yes. I may have worded it a bit differently than what I had wanted.

Maybe a revised summary I'd offer is a version of the old phrase, just because people are unaware something is happening does not prove it's not happening. And if there are people who have no idea, they shouldn't be at fault for believing what they have been led to believe.
I fully agree with that statement. And I think the difference is that most of your posts on this thread are focused on an underlying system. And most of my posts are focused on the experiences of those who are not involved in the underlying system and don't really get what it is and, honestly, many probably don't really care. They just want to chat with some online friends about the Beach Boys.
I think analysis of underlying systems and exposure of their flaws and dangers is very worthy. I'm not criticizing that. But, to try to do it in a way that doesn't alienate those who are not involved and just happen to be hanging around nearby, would also be worthy.
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Smilin Ed H
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« Reply #124 on: June 05, 2016, 11:51:01 AM »

And may I ask what said precise qualities are?
As I said above, even if a quarrel is not actually about Mike Love, there seems to be a fault line where one side of the quarrel will be people who frequently take a stance of defending ML and the other is people who frequently take a stance of criticizing him.
I think the bulk of the 'defending' people have moved there and the bulk of the 'critcizing' people have stayed here. Other people, of which there are many, have sorted themselves according to their comfort level with the individuals of those groups.
There are some people who could legitimately go back and forth without making waves in either place.

I'm no defender of the Lovester - apart from that which he should be defended for (i.e. most of his lyrics up to about 73 (and few after) and most of his vocals for the same period) - and I've registered there. The board's about The Beach Boys. Why would Iain be banned? Iain, if you're out there, give it a whirl...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 11:55:50 AM by Smilin Ed H » Logged

ďIf God hadnít intended for us to eat animals he wouldnít have made them out of meat.Ē ~Sarah Palin
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