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Author Topic: The Beach Boys Live At Paramount NYC 11/26/1993 Unplugged Tour  (Read 8153 times)
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« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2016, 10:20:08 AM »

Cmon guys-- 2012 didn't have Carl. It ain't hard.

 Old Brian+Foskett<Carl

Obviously when a band member's key voice isn't there, it will shape the sound radically, no doubt. I feel that way every time I hear an old concert with Dennis playing drums, no one brought what he brought to the Beach Boys live sound back in the day. My questions were more about Andrew's comments regarding Bruce and Brian's vocals in the stack...perhaps it also had something to do with whatever venues Andrew heard them perform and how the shows were mixed for those venues. I don't know.

But one thing I can add to the comment about Carl - If it were not for him doing what he could to save the performance with his voice, "Under The Boardwalk" as heard on that recording (and elsewhere) would have been even worse than it sounded on that tape. What were they thinking...
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« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2016, 10:22:36 AM »

The 2012 band sang all the parts, more accurately than the early-90s one, but frankly most of the time the harmony stack was dominated by the backing band -- Al's voice always cut through, and you could hear Mike most of the time, but Brian and Bruce's contributions to the harmonies might as well not have been there (and I don't think David's *were* there -- I'm pretty sure his mic wasn't in the mix for most songs).

RAH 2012...Little Girl I Once Knew and Why Do Fools Fall In Love, even on cel video I hear Brian and Bruce cutting through just fine. Little Girl especially, as Brian sings lead on the verses you can then hear how his voice falls into the vocal stack. Why Do Fools as well, Brian is doing a specific part in the stack and you can hear it cut through. Bruce's voice is distinct, I hear him in there no problem.

Listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e70H4KOqCYg
Little Girl at 14:30, Why Do Fools around 35:00

Wembley 2012, the Forever and God Only Knows tribute performances. Brian (and Bruce) audible in the stack, and like Brian with Little Girl, as soon as Bruce hits that famous coda on GOK, you hear where his voice has been in the stack all along for the mix that night.

Listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FY1qZWL40&feature=youtu.be

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't there, weren't in the mix, or anything like that. Just that compared to the early 90s show where there were only I think six vocalists ( the four Beach Boys plus Matt Jardine and Billy Hinsche), the thirteen vocalists on stage meant that Brian and Bruce weren't a big part of the harmony sound.  At the shows I was at (the Wembley show and the two Italian ones) they were definitely in the harmony stack when not singing lead, but were mostly not a major part of it.

I may not be getting what your suggesting here, but a harmony stack is supposed to be a blend of all the voices coming together so that not one or another part stands out too much on its own. I guess my read on it is you said you didn't hear enough Bruce or Brian in the harmony blend to suggest they might as well not have been there, yet they are audible in that blend but not standing out, and doing what singers as part of a harmony blend do by design.

Help me out with this!  Smiley

Maybe he means that take Brian and Bruce out of the stack there would not be a noticeable difference to the sound.  Take Carl or Al out of the 1990s Paramount Era shows and it would stick out like a sore thumb.  Bruce and Mike too for that matter.  That is why I love those rehearsals.

Andrew I agree with you regarding both bands and really wished Carl could have been around for C50.
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2016, 10:30:11 AM »

That's the difference between the obvious and the hypothetical. During C50 there were also upwards of 5 or more people playing guitars on any given song - Who in the guitar section would it be suggested might as well not have been there because their parts blended into the mix instead of standing out like a lead?
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« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2016, 10:40:51 AM »

That's the difference between the obvious and the hypothetical. During C50 there were also upwards of 5 or more people playing guitars on any given song - Who in the guitar section would it be suggested might as well not have been there because their parts blended into the mix instead of standing out like a lead?

I'm not bothered about the guitars.  The band are super talented for sure.  I'm talking about how I like to hear the Beach Boys in the blend.  You can still have a harmony blend but hear the individual voices like the 90s tour rehearsals.  The BVs on C50 were great but it would have ended the same without the Beach Boys even singing.  That is to say, if Darian and the guys went on tour the vocals would still sound the same.  The guys did cut through occasionally on specific lines no-one is disputing that.  But how good would it have been to hear the Boys doing Their Hearts Were Full of Spring with Matt taking the top part (or Bruce)?  Kind of like they did on Add Some Music.
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« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2016, 11:00:03 AM »

That's the difference between the obvious and the hypothetical. During C50 there were also upwards of 5 or more people playing guitars on any given song - Who in the guitar section would it be suggested might as well not have been there because their parts blended into the mix instead of standing out like a lead?

I'm not bothered about the guitars.  The band are super talented for sure.  I'm talking about how I like to hear the Beach Boys in the blend.  You can still have a harmony blend but hear the individual voices like the 90s tour rehearsals.  The BVs on C50 were great but it would have ended the same without the Beach Boys even singing.  That is to say, if Darian and the guys went on tour the vocals would still sound the same.  The guys did cut through occasionally on specific lines no-one is disputing that.  But how good would it have been to hear the Boys doing Their Hearts Were Full of Spring with Matt taking the top part (or Bruce)?  Kind of like they did on Add Some Music.

It would have but the guys were doing harmony as it should be done, if one voice is standing out it affects the blend in a negative way. That's the nature of harmony singing, if Bruce is singing a baritone part and isn't clearly audible on every line, he's still part of the blend. I could hear him in the videos, and they're just cel videos, and he was part of that blend. I guess I'm also coming at this as a guitarist, and I understand having support parts but how is having 5 guitars in the mix different from having 12 vocals or whatever was mentioned before? They're doing the same roles, basically, so we could say at least two of those guitars blended in so much that they could have not even been there, and I'm saying that's not the case since each on C50 played a role in the blend. If I didn't hear Jeff's or Al's guitar as prominent as others on the songs, they were still a part of the blend.
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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2016, 12:05:36 PM »

That's the difference between the obvious and the hypothetical. During C50 there were also upwards of 5 or more people playing guitars on any given song - Who in the guitar section would it be suggested might as well not have been there because their parts blended into the mix instead of standing out like a lead?

I only meant in terms of the vocals sounding "Beach Boys", which was the question I was answering. Obviously if there are thirteen or so people singing, many of them more prominent in the mix, and only four of them are Beach Boys, that's not going to sound as much like the Beach Boys as six people, four of them Beach Boys, singing.

I also disagree that "a harmony stack is supposed to be a blend of all the voices coming together so that not one or another part stands out too much on its own". Generally speaking, at least for myself, when I listen to the Beach Boys' harmonies I can pick out all the individual voices without any real effort. Not always, but a lot of the time. That wasn't the case for much of the 2012 shows.
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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2016, 01:54:16 PM »

Hearing them live, and watching video footage from 2012, it became obvious to me that the core guys were doing the bulk of the harmony singing (aided by Jeff's and Scott's falsettos). It seemed to me that if all the main guys stopped singing at once, whatever guys like Darian and Scotty were singing would have sounded very low and subdued. Those were doubling-enforcing and not much else.

And may I add that Bruce is one hell of a harmony singer. Blends wonderfully and has edge at the same time, covers a lot of tricky parts during a long time-span, has perfect intonation and rhythmic delivery-- and if you add the minutes he sings during a concert, he probably sings more time than most of the other guys.
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« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2016, 02:20:54 PM »

Hearing them live, and watching video footage from 2012, it became obvious to me that the core guys were doing the bulk of the harmony singing (aided by Jeff's and Scott's falsettos). It seemed to me that if all the main guys stopped singing at once, whatever guys like Darian and Scotty were singing would have sounded very low and subdued. Those were doubling-enforcing and not much else.

That's not how it sounded to me, with a couple of exceptions (notably Surfer Girl and In My Room). But I think this is one of those things that will be down to opinion rather than objective fact...

Quote
And may I add that Bruce is one hell of a harmony singer. Blends wonderfully and has edge at the same time, covers a lot of tricky parts during a long time-span, has perfect intonation and rhythmic delivery-- and if you add the minutes he sings during a concert, he probably sings more time than most of the other guys.
Absolutely.
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« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2016, 03:27:30 PM »

Was Dave ever audible in the harmonies in 2012? I couldn't pick him out from the videos I've seen, although I am not really familiar with his singing voice.
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« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2016, 04:21:39 PM »

Was Dave ever audible in the harmonies in 2012? I couldn't pick him out from the videos I've seen, although I am not really familiar with his singing voice.

He was very audible on Surfer Girl and In My Room. I couldn't pick him out on anything else (other than the songs he sang lead on), and my suspicion is that his mic was not in the mix for many songs -- in the Rome show (where I was stood in the front row, on his side of the stage) he came in at the wrong time, when no-one else was singing, at least twice and no vocals came through the speaker. I don't think that was a clever catch from the sound engineer, because when other people made the same kind of mistakes, they were audible.

That may just have been the mix for that one show, of course -- I remember that at that show Bruce's keyboard was also not audible when Mike asked for his note at the start of Be True To Your School -- but I can't say I noticed him in the harmonies on the other two shows I saw, or in any of the recordings I've heard.

(That's not a knock on David, incidentally -- he's always been a bit different from the other Beach Boys in that he's an instrumentalist who also sings, rather than a singer who also plays, and his guitar and stage presence added a lot to the show. David being on stage and in the front line made them feel like a band, rather than some singers with a backing band. If he hadn't sung a single note he'd still have earned his place on that stage.)
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« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2016, 04:32:13 PM »

That's the difference between the obvious and the hypothetical. During C50 there were also upwards of 5 or more people playing guitars on any given song - Who in the guitar section would it be suggested might as well not have been there because their parts blended into the mix instead of standing out like a lead?

I only meant in terms of the vocals sounding "Beach Boys", which was the question I was answering. Obviously if there are thirteen or so people singing, many of them more prominent in the mix, and only four of them are Beach Boys, that's not going to sound as much like the Beach Boys as six people, four of them Beach Boys, singing.

I also disagree that "a harmony stack is supposed to be a blend of all the voices coming together so that not one or another part stands out too much on its own". Generally speaking, at least for myself, when I listen to the Beach Boys' harmonies I can pick out all the individual voices without any real effort. Not always, but a lot of the time. That wasn't the case for much of the 2012 shows.

You're talking about picking out individual voices based on the character of the voice because you know the sound of each band members voice, I'm talking about the techniques of harmony singing in general. The same principles hold true for sectionals in an orchestra or a big band. If you have four voices doing some variation of the SATB chorale setup (soprano, alto, tenor, bass), and they're harmonizing on a chord to support the melody, if one of those middle voices (especially) overpowers the others, the blend is shot. Besides the notes themselves, one of the key elements of good group harmony singing is getting that blend, and beyond that, getting the phrasing in sync so the singers are all taking a breath at the same time when doing close harmonies like the Freshmen, Beach Boys, CSN, etc. It's more than the notes. If it's live and if it's up to a sound mixer, then that person has to bring down the level of whoever might be booming out over the rest (apart from the lead), especially in a close harmony when they're all on microphones and not standing together to adjust themselves or back off if necessary.

Of course a Beach Boys fan would be able to ID individual members by the sound of their voice, having listened to the band for decades. But that's different than having a good blend. The Beach Boys' records had an impeccable blend where all members were in total sync with phrasing, and they had it worked out too (and were skilled enough) so that each chord they sang together was balanced. Without that, it's just not as good...no other words to describe it.

I picked out Brian's and Bruce's voices on those clips because I also know the sound of their modern voices and also was able to key in on the notes and the parts of the chord which they were singing. Without Brian's part on "Why Do Fools..." for one example posted above from C50, the chord would not be complete, the part itself would be missing a key voice. Same with all the rest. They're parts of the chord that form the full chord, unless they're singing unison. Take one away, you'll lose that sound. And the blend when doing so is crucial.

As someone pointed out, the only difference really between 1993 and C50 was Carl. And if it's the specific character of Carl's voice that you missed in the 2012 blend, that will obviously never happen again just like Dennis won't ever play "Do It Again" with the same beat he did live decades ago. That's different from suggesting Brian's and Bruce's voices could have been taken out and not missed.
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"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
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« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2016, 01:00:28 AM »

As someone pointed out, the only difference really between 1993 and C50 was Carl.

And the (not inconsiderable I would say) passage of 19 years.
But really, all else holding true, less Beach Boys present would mean a less Beach Boys-like blend.
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« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2016, 02:25:12 AM »

As someone pointed out, the only difference really between 1993 and C50 was Carl.

And the (not inconsiderable I would say) passage of 19 years.
But really, all else holding true, less Beach Boys present would mean a less Beach Boys-like blend.

Yes, and it would begin to sound Fendertonesesque.  Still great, but less Beach Boys.  There's a reason the Beatles, Hollies and Beach Boys all sound different when harmonising.  It's about the voices, not just the chords they are singing or arrangements.
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« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2016, 07:28:02 AM »

As someone pointed out, the only difference really between 1993 and C50 was Carl.

And the (not inconsiderable I would say) passage of 19 years.
But really, all else holding true, less Beach Boys present would mean a less Beach Boys-like blend.

Yes, and it would begin to sound Fendertonesesque.  Still great, but less Beach Boys.  There's a reason the Beatles, Hollies and Beach Boys all sound different when harmonising.  It's about the voices, not just the chords they are singing or arrangements.

The Beach Boys have an added factor - genetics. Three brothers and a cousin. Makes for a very special blend.
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« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2016, 07:42:39 AM »

As someone pointed out, the only difference really between 1993 and C50 was Carl.

And the (not inconsiderable I would say) passage of 19 years.
But really, all else holding true, less Beach Boys present would mean a less Beach Boys-like blend.

Yes, and it would begin to sound Fendertonesesque.  Still great, but less Beach Boys.  There's a reason the Beatles, Hollies and Beach Boys all sound different when harmonising.  It's about the voices, not just the chords they are singing or arrangements.

The Beach Boys have an added factor - genetics. Three brothers and a cousin. Makes for a very special blend.

And all of their children are very talented also which helps them to have a great backing band!
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« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2016, 02:06:19 PM »

The harmony blend on C50 seemed to vary from song to song. I do recall being impressed that it did truly sound like *The* Beach Boys, and I think the linchpin in that was Al more than anyone else. There were certain songs where his voice was not only quite prominent, but it was what made it sound like *The* Beach Boys. Interestingly, "Getcha Back" was one of them. Having Al try to shoehorn in his 70s arrangement backing vocals to "Heroes and Villains" was another moment.

Vocals on C50 were certainly more robust than in the Carl era. Not surprisingly, the ideal situation would have been for the touring BBs to have a larger band and better C50-style setlist during the Carl era. But even the 90s was just a different time than now. It just wouldn't have happened. For all we know, Carl would have scuttled doing 60-song deep-cut setlists and doubling the size of the backing band. I think Carl would have felt more at ease doing it in the 2000s when the vibe and fan reaction and perception more easily allows for it.
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« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2016, 12:12:56 PM »

Fabulous stuff, only just got around to starting to have a listen.

I wonder if any rehearsal tapes exist for the 2012 reunion tour.
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« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2016, 09:30:58 AM »

One of my most treasured recordings.  Everything from this part of 1993 was great by the boys.  Pretty sure that's Al singing Mike's bass part at the end of Surfer Girl.
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« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2016, 10:52:43 AM »

At the of You Still Believe In Me, there are 2 falsettos.  One is clearly Matt.  Who is the other--Bruce or Al?
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« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2016, 12:55:48 PM »

I think it is Bruce. I'm sure I can hear Al in a lower key, closer to his lead.
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« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2017, 10:31:39 AM »

I have heard bits and pieces from this (what's included on MIC) but I wish I could hear the full thing!
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« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2017, 12:14:02 PM »

They just showed the Knebworth concert locally on PBS last night.  I had not seen it before, but really didn't care much for it.  Have just seen those same songs live so much I felt like I knew exactly how they were going to sing each line so it was not of much interest to me....They actually sounded good (I know it was doctored a lot) though...FWIW...still some interest in the band I guess....but that concert is starting to "look" very ancient....
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« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2017, 12:21:43 PM »

They just showed the Knebworth concert locally on PBS last night.  I had not seen it before, but really didn't care much for it.  Have just seen those same songs live so much I felt like I knew exactly how they were going to sing each line so it was not of much interest to me....They actually sounded good (I know it was doctored a lot) though...FWIW...still some interest in the band I guess....but that concert is starting to "look" very ancient....

The one from 1980?  I think that's actually one of the better BB concerts that's been officially released.  Granted, like you said, by that time, the setlists were started to veer into the traveling jukebox collection.   

I doubt PBS showed it, but it also includes a nice live version of Lady Lynda. 

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« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2017, 12:29:18 PM »

They just showed the Knebworth concert locally on PBS last night.  I had not seen it before, but really didn't care much for it.  Have just seen those same songs live so much I felt like I knew exactly how they were going to sing each line so it was not of much interest to me....They actually sounded good (I know it was doctored a lot) though...FWIW...still some interest in the band I guess....but that concert is starting to "look" very ancient....

Wait, isn't this thread about the '93 Paramount show?

And you "didn't care much" for the Knebworth show, but feel they "sounded good?" What do you need in order to actually care about a concert video, or like it?

And, the concert is 37 years old and was shot on SD videotape. Of course it's going to look its age.

And isn't "knowing exactly how they were going to sing each line" just another way of saying you're a fan and you know the lyrics? Were they supposed to change the lyrics for the Knebworth show?

Not trying to be harsh, and we all like to do sort of stream of consciousness reviews of stuff from time to time. But it kinda sounds like you went into watching a 37-year-old concert video of the Beach Boys as a fan of the band, but expected, I guess, the footage to look "new" and for the lyrics and singing to somehow be unpredictable?
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« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2017, 01:55:47 PM »

Carl's beautiful vocals on Darlin', All This Is That tag, God Only Knows. Good gosh.



and Caroline, No...
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