Good Vibrations Success and Smile's Demise

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think Brian was fairly clear about why he got rid of what he got rid of. He thought the Smile music (that is, what he and Van Dyke both created) had become too personal. I'm not convinced that he didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics (though I know their perspective on what the project was began changing maybe as early as December '66). Rather, I think he began to think that the music became too much about the artist (or artists) and not enough about making a connection with an audience . Part of that had to do with sophistication but not simply with Van Dyke's lyrics but with the production and complexity of some of the songs too. I see nothing to suggest that he specifically had a problem with the historical/preachiness aspect. Let's not forget he also dumped the word-less Our Prayer and Fire, where there was very little Van Dyke involvement. And furthermore, he moved the "just see what you've done" from the discarded DYLW into the re-make of H&V, making it more preachy rather than less. If his problem was merely with the sophistication of Van Dyke's lyrics then it makes no sense why he would choose to re-record a bunch of songs he wrote with him, rather than, say, have Mike write new lyrics to the songs that he already had in the can, like Cabinessence or Surf's Up or Wonderful, etc. By 1967, Brian's issues with Smile ran far deeper than the sophistication of the lyrics, or the thematic content, or with Van Dyke. He has said as much.

Extremely well said. He was free to keep using the tracks he had been slaving over with new Mike lyrics and he didnt. He kept some of the most obtuse lyrics Parks wrote like Wonderful. He kept H&V which is overtly Americana. And on and on.

I dont think he dumped anything for being Americana or too associated with Parks. Remember he scrapped Surfs Up which easily couldve been on Smiley in a stripped down form, and CIFOTM. Again, he easily couldve had Mike write over Parks' lyrics for Veggies, H&V, Wonderful, etc.

I think his problem is just in the whole aesthetic. He didnt want to do this big preachy symphony to God--which was his idea, not Parks, and as pretentious as anything Parks ever brought to this project. "Dont think you're god just be a cool guy" from the new Wonderful bridge is the key lyric, in my eyes. He wanted to do a fun laid back album with the group that they could play live than a big complex thing that was all him, the guys are just instruments themselves, that they couldnt play live and was tearing the band apart. He still retained the humor--according to Anderle it was turned up even--and some other ideas he was experimenting with like sound effects (cork pop in WC, water pouring into a glass in Veggies) and chants (Whistle In). It was just without the need to prove anything, to go the next step up production wise. No more modular pieces that were driving him nuts by then. And no distinct two movements. The songs that got used were the ones that were the most completed. Worms had to go because it now lacked a chorus, IIGS and Elements werent even close to done, CE needed a lot of work and Mike hated it, CIFOTM never had verse lyrics, etc etc. Prayer and SU couldve potentially been included since they were done--in a simpler sense in SU's case. But they didnt fit the new aesthetic he was going for. Those were "symphony to God" tracks, and I suspect he didnt want to use them outside of that context. He only reluctantly let them use them later, and if you believe the stories he came in last minute with that SU fade because if they were gonna use that track he wanted to make sure they did it justice.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

We'll disagree on Pet Sounds -vs- SMiLE. To me Pet Sounds is the masterwork with honest, raw and profound lyrics that have much more going for them VDP's, some of which I find wonderful while some come off as incredibly pretentious. Loved them all when I was younger, not so much at 45, whereas Pet Sounds still works on every level for me, if anything it becomes a richer listening experience as I get older (which I can't say for many albums I worshipped as a teenager). There's also the problem of SMiLE not being fully realized. I'm leaning more and more towards the idea of it being 6 or so completed songs that should've just been released as they were.

I agree with most of this. I consider Pet Sounds Brian's masterpiece, and Smile reaching a step too far by trying to out do his masterpiece.  Track for track some Smile tracks were creatively better than certain Pet Sounds tracks, but overall I really don't think you can take a masterpiece and try to do yourself one better. 

As far as the "pretentious" reference, Parks has a pretentious personality. I have thought that ever since I first saw him on that Beach Boys special in 1976. Mike Love has an "antagonistic" personality.  I don't really care either way about personalities, I like Mike and think he was good for the Beach Boys, I think Parks had some good lyrics with Brian, but in hindsight he was not the right match for Brian.  Brian clowned around his entire life in the 60s, even on TSS you can hear him, what do you think the humor thing was all about.  When I watch that 1976 special, it's really puzzling when you hear Brian say as he's lying in bed, that Parks is his favorite collaborator, then when you see Parks talking and his pretentious manner, you think really...hmmm.  At least I did and still do.

Nonsense, artists do that all the time. Did Scorsese say "Well, I made Taxi Driver. Thats my masterpiece so its time to stop" No. He went on to make many more masterpieces. Just one of hundreds of examples. You cant really compare Pet Sounds to SMiLE because the latter isnt done. TSS uses unfinished tracks and (imo) a bad sequence--at least one thats almost certainly not what wouldve happened in '67. Even tracks we consider done in BWPS may very well have been more complex and beautiful had they been done back in the day. The way Brian sings the "Once upon" lyrics in the sessions is totally different than the more droning, straight-forward way in BWPS. Its possible hed have one BB do it the BWPS way and also have another do it the way he does in the control booth, with possibly other vocal parts going on at the same time. Just one example.

I think you raise a good point about Brian and VDP not being a good match tho. Anderle says that even as the project was starting, he knew they wouldnt really work well together. He says they blew each others minds and describes their parting as tragic, but I think he sensed the differences as youre suggesting.

I know it probably sounds like Im shoehorning this into every SMiLE topic, but I think Psychedelic Sounds may hold some clues too. Again, Im sorry I dont have a definite source for this, but I recall reading that VDP was put off by them and Brian's attitude. He's also said to have avoided the Fire sessions if I recall. And our Big 3 sources have him feeling belittled by Brian's attempts to dominate him. So I think from his perspective it was partially the blow back from the BBs and that he didnt want to split up a family as he says, but also a "who does this joker think he is putting me down while he's recording these stupid unfunny skits and chants, wearing a fire helmet and setting trash on fire? I dont need this sh*t, Ive got my own recording contract!"

[Emily]

I think the last half dozen posts or so are making some really good points.
Don't you think, though, that some of the choices were emotional? Brian Wilson's reported reactions to Carl Wilson wanting to put Surf's Up on the Surf's Up album makes me think that his decisions about this were emotional as well as practical.

[Micha]

The worst lyrics on the album are Wind Chimes,

Personally think DYLW is the worst lyrics, but I agree with you that they should have kept the cornucopia verse, my favorite VDP lyric along with the verses to Cabin Essence.

With all this fighting about the lyrics going on back then, I think whether the album would have been a success or not was more or less all down to the music, not the lyrics. As somebody pointed out many moons ago, in non-English language countries at the time the lyrics to, say, Sloop John B. (#1 in Germany) were just as obscure to the general public as the lyrics to Heroes & Villains (#34) or Do It Again (#4).

They speak english in germany. Unless your point is the folk song SJB is based on, the idea of cowboys, etc would be foreign to them.

My point is: In the 1960s, knowledge of the English language amongst German teenagers (my parents among them) was still very poor. They wouldn't have understood the lyrics of neither of the songs I quoted, wouldn't have been able to tell that the lyrical style of VDP was different from Mike Love's or folk songs' lyrics.

"They speak English in Germany" - we're much better in doing it now, but - not - really. Usually we speak German...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I disagree on H&V, if anything he de-preached that lyric from "Bicycle rider, just see what you’ve done-done to the church of the American Indian!" to the generic/universal "Heroes and Villains: Just see what you done-done".

That's true but I wasn't drawing a comparison between those examples. Rather I was comparing the "just see what you've done" chorus in H&V to the previous version of H&V which didn't have that line in it at all.

To be honest, I don't particularly think any of the lines in Smile are preachy.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think the last half dozen posts or so are making some really good points.
Don't you think, though, that some of the choices were emotional? Brian Wilson's reported reactions to Carl Wilson wanting to put Surf's Up on the Surf's Up album makes me think that his decisions about this were emotional as well as practical.

Absolutely. To be honest, I think that Brian loved the Smile music but slowly began to feel (or, and here's where the real debate comes in, was made to feel) that the music was not appropriate Beach Boys music for a Beach Boys audience. And so, he had to switch gears. But I think it was a very difficult decision. The fact that he was still playing Surf's Up on his own at the Wild Honey sessions later that year demonstrates just how close to the material he was.

[Cam Mott]

I disagree on H&V, if anything he de-preached that lyric from "Bicycle rider, just see what you’ve done-done to the church of the American Indian!" to the generic/universal "Heroes and Villains: Just see what you done-done".

That's true but I wasn't drawing a comparison between those examples. Rather I was comparing the "just see what you've done" chorus in H&V to the previous version of H&V which didn't have that line in it at all.

To be honest, I don't particularly think any of the lines in Smile are preachy.

My point was that SMiLE version of the lyric in H&V was abandoned, along with other preachy/pretentious/? similar SMiLE tracks and lyrics, replaced with non- or less preachy/pretentious/? lyrics (as where other SMiLE lyrics for release).

[Paul J B]

We'll disagree on Pet Sounds -vs- SMiLE. To me Pet Sounds is the masterwork with honest, raw and profound lyrics that have much more going for them VDP's, some of which I find wonderful while some come off as incredibly pretentious. Loved them all when I was younger, not so much at 45, whereas Pet Sounds still works on every level for me, if anything it becomes a richer listening experience as I get older (which I can't say for many albums I worshipped as a teenager). There's also the problem of SMiLE not being fully realized. I'm leaning more and more towards the idea of it being 6 or so completed songs that should've just been released as they were.

I agree with most of this. I consider Pet Sounds Brian's masterpiece, and Smile reaching a step too far by trying to out do his masterpiece.  Track for track some Smile tracks were creatively better than certain Pet Sounds tracks, but overall I really don't think you can take a masterpiece and try to do yourself one better. 

As far as the "pretentious" reference, Parks has a pretentious personality. I have thought that ever since I first saw him on that Beach Boys special in 1976. Mike Love has an "antagonistic" personality.  I don't really care either way about personalities, I like Mike and think he was good for the Beach Boys, I think Parks had some good lyrics with Brian, but in hindsight he was not the right match for Brian.  Brian clowned around his entire life in the 60s, even on TSS you can hear him, what do you think the humor thing was all about.  When I watch that 1976 special, it's really puzzling when you hear Brian say as he's lying in bed, that Parks is his favorite collaborator, then when you see Parks talking and his pretentious manner, you think really...hmmm.  At least I did and still do.

Nonsense, artists do that all the time. Did Scorsese say "Well, I made Taxi Driver. Thats my masterpiece so its time to stop" No. He went on to make many more masterpieces. Just one of hundreds of examples. You cant really compare Pet Sounds to SMiLE because the latter isnt done. TSS uses unfinished tracks and (imo) a bad sequence--at least one thats almost certainly not what wouldve happened in '67. Even tracks we consider done in BWPS may very well have been more complex and beautiful had they been done back in the day. The way Brian sings the "Once upon" lyrics in the sessions is totally different than the more droning, straight-forward way in BWPS. Its possible hed have one BB do it the BWPS and also have another do it the way he does in the control booth, with possibly other vocal parts going on at the same time. Just one example.

I think you raise a good point about Brian and VDP not being a good match tho. Anderle says that even as the project was starting, he knew they wouldnt really work well together. He says they blew each others minds and describes their parting as tragic, but I think he sensed the differences as youre suggesting.

Who said he should stop? I'm talking about trying to top Pet Sounds with an "if you think that was good wait 'till you hear our next one." No, it was NOT going to happen and didn't. Pet Sounds is Brian's heart and soul on vinyl in '66. Smile, even if it had been completed would not have been.

I should put this in the sandbox with the Star Wars thread but Scorsese is a prime example of why I can't stand Hollywood. The guy makes one ultra violent ugly movie after another and he's some kind of genius. To each his own.

[guitarfool2002]

Just to correct a few points:

When the chants and skits were recorded, Van Dyke Parks did not have the record deal that led to Song Cycle in '67. It had been Terry Melcher who more formally introduced the two at his house in July '66 after Brian mentioned to Terry that he was looking for someone to collaborate on lyrics for the type of music he had in mind, with Brian wanting to go in a more experimental direction after Pet Sounds. Melcher thought of the song "High Coin" which Parks had recently written, and brought the two together. Van Dyke and Brian had already met previously, the first time when David Crosby brought Van to hear Sloop John B before it was released and also through Loren and mutual friends, but this was the meeting when an actual collaboration was the purpose.

And days later is when Van Dyke went to see Brian on his motorbike and got stopped by the LAPD on the way, which led the officer to actually meeting Brian and getting an autograph from Brian for his sister who was a fan. After that, Brian authorized a check for Van Dyke which he used to buy a "real" car, his Volvo. There was also apparently another gift Brian gave Van Dyke, pet mice, symbolic of how Van Dyke was living at that time (according to the legends).

So it's not as if Van Dyke, riding around LA on a motorbike, getting pulled over by suspicious LAPD officers who thought he didn't belong in Brian's neighborhood, and living in a modest pad, was being courted by labels with big offers and advances beyond the singles and studio work he had already been doing.

If I could find the interview, I'd post it, but there was one where it was mentioned that the record biz in LA at the time of the "Smile Era" was trying to figure out or get inside hints of what Brian was doing with his new music, and as a result of that interest, Van Dyke - the man closest to that process at that time - became a much more valuable interest for them.

Also, as a roll of film shot at Western 3 proves, Van Dyke did not have a problem wearing one of the plastic firehats as he is shown in the film wearing one.

The two men were headstrong in their own way, and what we'd call artistic or creative types...both had a lot to offer, and as the eyewitnesses said, they were both capable of blowing each others' minds and did so regularly. But consider the setup: Who had the upper hand, and who was coming in to work for that person? Brian was one of the most respected (and successful) producers and writers in the music biz even by 1966. People in the biz waited to hear what he was going to come up with on the next single to hit the radio. Van Dyke Parks had not yet become a household name in the business apart from his work with Lenny Waronker and various singles and studio sessions.

There was the week before Terry Melcher introduced them when Van Dyke was driving a motorbike, and there was the week after when Brian gave him a $5,000 check to buy a new Volvo. And afterward, into the fall of 1966, Van Dyke Parks was the guy collaborating on Brian's new music which was being reported all through the music press and magazines as groundbreaking if not revolutionary, with a massive buzz and mystery surrounding it. Who had the cache, who was still the guy with the cache? Simple as that.

[Emily]

Who said he should stop? I'm talking about trying to top Pet Sounds with an "if you think that was good wait 'till you hear our next one." No, it was NOT going to happen and didn't. Pet Sounds is Brian's heart and soul on vinyl in '66. Smile, even if it had been completed would not have been.

I should put this in the sandbox with the Star Wars thread but Scorsese is a prime example of why I can't stand Hollywood. The guy makes one ultra violent ugly movie after another and he's some kind of genius. To each his own.

I'm really uncomfortable with a lot of violence in film and I think that the level of violence in film is a sign of societal disease and feeds back into that disease. As you say, that's for another thread - except - I really try to separate my judgment of the impact of a work of art, and my personal liking for a work of art, or my feelings about the artist, from my judgment of the artistry of a work of art. Sometimes that's difficult.

I also think we should keep in mind that, while many lyrics on Pet Sounds and Smile come from BW's conceptual ideas, he didn't actually write them and in the writing the lyrics morph. I don't think the lyrics of Pet Sounds represent his heart and soul. I do think the music represents his heart and soul at that time. I think that's probably true for Smile music as well. His heart and soul are not static things frozen in time with Pet Sounds.

That said, if "if you think that was good wait 'till you hear our next one," was his thinking, it's not a good approach in any case (I think).

[Emily]

This is a very soft opinion, more an impression, but I sense from reading about Van Dyke Parks at the time, and reading his quotes over the years, that he was quite insecure socially, professionally and intellectually. I think his latter-day self is very protective of his younger self because he knows how insecure and easily wounded his younger self was.
That's complete nonsense based on no fact, but it's as factual as thinking he was an overbearing intellectual snob.
Those two impressions are not mutually exclusive, however.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

We'll disagree on Pet Sounds -vs- SMiLE. To me Pet Sounds is the masterwork with honest, raw and profound lyrics that have much more going for them VDP's, some of which I find wonderful while some come off as incredibly pretentious. Loved them all when I was younger, not so much at 45, whereas Pet Sounds still works on every level for me, if anything it becomes a richer listening experience as I get older (which I can't say for many albums I worshipped as a teenager). There's also the problem of SMiLE not being fully realized. I'm leaning more and more towards the idea of it being 6 or so completed songs that should've just been released as they were.

I agree with most of this. I consider Pet Sounds Brian's masterpiece, and Smile reaching a step too far by trying to out do his masterpiece.  Track for track some Smile tracks were creatively better than certain Pet Sounds tracks, but overall I really don't think you can take a masterpiece and try to do yourself one better. 

As far as the "pretentious" reference, Parks has a pretentious personality. I have thought that ever since I first saw him on that Beach Boys special in 1976. Mike Love has an "antagonistic" personality.  I don't really care either way about personalities, I like Mike and think he was good for the Beach Boys, I think Parks had some good lyrics with Brian, but in hindsight he was not the right match for Brian.  Brian clowned around his entire life in the 60s, even on TSS you can hear him, what do you think the humor thing was all about.  When I watch that 1976 special, it's really puzzling when you hear Brian say as he's lying in bed, that Parks is his favorite collaborator, then when you see Parks talking and his pretentious manner, you think really...hmmm.  At least I did and still do.

Nonsense, artists do that all the time. Did Scorsese say "Well, I made Taxi Driver. Thats my masterpiece so its time to stop" No. He went on to make many more masterpieces. Just one of hundreds of examples. You cant really compare Pet Sounds to SMiLE because the latter isnt done. TSS uses unfinished tracks and (imo) a bad sequence--at least one thats almost certainly not what wouldve happened in '67. Even tracks we consider done in BWPS may very well have been more complex and beautiful had they been done back in the day. The way Brian sings the "Once upon" lyrics in the sessions is totally different than the more droning, straight-forward way in BWPS. Its possible hed have one BB do it the BWPS and also have another do it the way he does in the control booth, with possibly other vocal parts going on at the same time. Just one example.

I think you raise a good point about Brian and VDP not being a good match tho. Anderle says that even as the project was starting, he knew they wouldnt really work well together. He says they blew each others minds and describes their parting as tragic, but I think he sensed the differences as youre suggesting.

Who said he should stop? I'm talking about trying to top Pet Sounds with an "if you think that was good wait 'till you hear our next one." No, it was NOT going to happen and didn't. Pet Sounds is Brian's heart and soul on vinyl in '66. Smile, even if it had been completed would not have been.

I should put this in the sandbox with the Star Wars thread but Scorsese is a prime example of why I can't stand Hollywood. The guy makes one ultra violent ugly movie after another and he's some kind of genius. To each his own.

Im just saying, artists are always trying to raise the bar. I dont believe an artist has ever consciously decided something is their magnum opus and purposefully not tried to do better the next time. Usually their perception of what their best was, and the publics too, comes many years later. Im sure Brian considers Pet Sounds the best now, but at the time he almost certainly didnt and even after SMiLE collapsed Im sure he envisioned a day when either the Beach Boys would make something better or he would produce something better with another group. It just never ended up happening.

To each his own, but I personally disagree. I think even unfinished, the SMiLE tracks are more fun to listen to and more rewarding to analyze than Pet Sounds. But I understand not everyone approaches art that way. Some just want to turn on a record and feel something. And yeah, especially since its finished, Pet Sounds is probably better for that.

Scorsese's films are violent but they tell great stories about interesting if often amoral people. Taxi Driver is a great look at loneliness and isolation and what it can do to people, Raging Bull is like a modern greek tragedy, and Goodfellas is one of the most stylish and innovative gangster movies ever, as well as one of the most influential of the 90s period. Not everything can or should be all happy happy sunshine and rainbows rated G.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Something maybe worth bringing up, a Bruce Johnston interview series by the same team that did the Danny Hutton interviews Ive linked to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on9hWPf_bA8&list=PL42412455481D7DB6&index=14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HAdZXeWeq4&index=15&list=PL42412455481D7DB6

Some takeaway points:

1-Bruce doesnt think Sloop John B really fit on Pet Sounds, which I found surprising

2-He doesnt think the band hurt SMiLE and challenges you to listen to the tapes "the band worked hard to make this happen" and defends Mike. Perhaps expected coming from him especially but worth noting

3-Says Brian was very tense and not the same man during SMiLE. He speculates that the high stakes after the wild success of GV made him nervous

4-Loves Smiley, calls it a cool album, but laments the loss of SMiLE. Says GV doesnt fit on Smiley--at different times says if GV had been on Pet Sounds it wouldve been better than Sgt Pepper, but then that GV was better without a home, and shouldve been a standalone single.

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

[CenturyDeprived]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

Thats what Danny Hutton speculates too, that he was weaning himself away from the band, trying to get them to think they were fine on their own so he could move on and produce other acts. Danny, being part of one of those acts, may be biased in saying so.

Still, Bruce differs pretty significantly from other witnesses in completely ignoring the band's internal tension (expected) and calling Brian constantly nervous at this time while Vosse and Anderle present a very childlike carefree (tho still dealing with a lot of tension and insecurity) creative spirit. Im not saying anyone is lying, but this is a good example of peoples biases, how they can only comment on what theyve seen, and why its good to consider other accounts. Its totally possible Brian tried to put on a front he didnt mind the Boys disagreements in front of them while venting about it to his friends.

Anyway, I just thought it was worth bringing up because he seemed to share the OP's thesis on the album's non-release

[The_Holy_Bee]

Still, Bruce differs pretty significantly from other witnesses in completely ignoring the band's internal tension (expected) and calling Brian constantly nervous at this time while Vosse and Anderle present a very childlike carefree (tho still dealing with a lot of tension and insecurity) creative spirit.

Not disagreeing with any of this, really, except to point out that a major aspect of 'Goodbye Surfing, Hello God!' (another of the 'seminal texts') concerns Brian's increasing doubts and paranoia during the SMiLE period - cf. the 'magic fire music'; Phil Spector producing the film 'Seconds' just to mess with him, etc. So there is at least one other 'major witness' who perceived - and wrote about - Brian's 'nervous' mental state at the time.

[Emily]

Mujan, while I agree that Brian Wilson considered, at the time, his Smile work to be artistically a cut above Pet Sounds, I don't agree that an artist is necessarily always trying to do better than their previous work. Sometimes they are just trying something different.
CenturyDeprived, your ideas about why Brian credited the band with production on Smiley Smile make sense to me; though your "drug haze" statement got me thinking. I wonder if, among the BB myths, this one needs re-examining. We know now, and have for a while, that Brian Wilson was experiencing real mental health issues. He did seemingly smoke a fair amount of pot around 67 and take upoers, I understand. He seems to have only taken LSD a few times. People are talking about his "addiction" in the Pamplin thread. I'm beginning to think his drug use and the effects of it are overblown.
Relevant in this thread is I see no reason to think he was in a "drug haze."

[GhostyTMRS]

Some of which I find wonderful while some come off as incredibly pretentious.

I see the term 'pretentious' frequently employed on these boards, sometimes about other posters, but most often in reference to the lyrics or, indeed, speech/manner of Van Dyke Parks. One actual (and satisfactory) definition of that word: 'Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed.'

Is this actually what you mean when discussing the words for the SMiLE songs? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you if so, but if the term's going to be thrown about it'd be nice to know this is actually what you mean. At least then if there's going to be any debate over the merits of (and these are just examples - I do recognize you said you find some of his lyrics wonderful )  'She belongs there, left with her liberty' or - yes - 'Over and over, the crow cries uncover the cornfield', we'll understand the terms of that debate going in. Especially because you consider some of the lyrics to 'come off' as 'incredibly' attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed. This strikes me as a bold line to take - even with the most esoteric verses he wrote - but I'm interested to read your arguments.

I had meant to reply to this as soon as I could but I've been all-Bowie-all-the-time since early Monday morning.

Yes, I do find some of the lyrics cringeworthy (although I strongly disagree with those who think the whole collaboration was a mistake). Interesting that you quoted lines from "Wonderful" and "Cabin-Essence" as those are two songs where I feel the marriage of music and lyrics work spectacularly well, and are easily my two favorites from the whole project. Both lyrics work as excellent impressionist pieces.
I know I'll get a lot of flak for this from 90% of the people here, but my main problem is with the lyric to "Surf's Up" (and to a lesser degree some of "Heroes and Villains"). Namechecking Poe's "The Pit and The Pendulum" has always struck me as ham-fisted and some of the others seem too precious for their own good like "Dove nested towers, the hours..", etc.
One's appreciation of a lyric is always going to be subjective. For example, I'm a sucker for Dylan and "Vision of Johanna" is my favorite song and lyric. "The ghost of electricity howls in the bones of her face" is a line that's usually called out as either sublime or pretentious nonsense. For some reason, that line and the entire song work for me, but I can see where someone could think it's pretentious (and yes, I DO know what the word "pretentious" means....good grief). Robyn Hitchcock, with his obsession with insects and vegetables, is another favorite of mine who also gets bashed for just stringing together random images that sound like they mean something but really don't. I'm of the opinion there's a logic at work there, but luckily there's plenty of humor.

That's not to say I dislike "Surf's Up". As a piece of music it's outstanding and *most* of the lyrics are evocative and help to set the mood. Some of them, however, seem forced as if the young VDP was puling an "I Am The Walrus" era John Lennon on us. "Let's see the f*****s work that one out" minus the deliberate tomfoolery. More like "This song doesn't really call for some of this flowery imagery, but won't it sound more impressive to everyone if I do it this way?".

I reckon I'll also be alone in thinking VDP did a more satisfying job on his own Song Cycle album. In fact, in a perfect world, I'd combine some of the finished SMiLE with tracks like "The All Golden" from Song Cycle (imagine that sequenced after "Wonderful"!) and complete Brian and VDP's intended American Gothic trip.
     

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Some of which I find wonderful while some come off as incredibly pretentious.

I see the term 'pretentious' frequently employed on these boards, sometimes about other posters, but most often in reference to the lyrics or, indeed, speech/manner of Van Dyke Parks. One actual (and satisfactory) definition of that word: 'Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed.'

Is this actually what you mean when discussing the words for the SMiLE songs? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you if so, but if the term's going to be thrown about it'd be nice to know this is actually what you mean. At least then if there's going to be any debate over the merits of (and these are just examples - I do recognize you said you find some of his lyrics wonderful )  'She belongs there, left with her liberty' or - yes - 'Over and over, the crow cries uncover the cornfield', we'll understand the terms of that debate going in. Especially because you consider some of the lyrics to 'come off' as 'incredibly' attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed. This strikes me as a bold line to take - even with the most esoteric verses he wrote - but I'm interested to read your arguments.

I had meant to reply to this as soon as I could but I've been all-Bowie-all-the-time since early Monday morning.

Yes, I do find some of the lyrics cringeworthy (although I strongly disagree with those who think the whole collaboration was a mistake). Interesting that you quoted lines from "Wonderful" and "Cabin-Essence" as those are two songs where I feel the marriage of music and lyrics work spectacularly well, and are easily my two favorites from the whole project. Both lyrics work as excellent impressionist pieces.
I know I'll get a lot of flak for this from 90% of the people here, but my main problem is with the lyric to "Surf's Up" (and to a lesser degree some of "Heroes and Villains"). Namechecking Poe's "The Pit and The Pendulum" has always struck me as ham-fisted and some of the others seem too precious for their own good like "Dove nested towers, the hours..", etc.
One's appreciation of a lyric is always going to be subjective. For example, I'm a sucker for Dylan and "Vision of Johanna" is my favorite song and lyric. "The ghost of electricity howls in the bones of her face" is a line that's usually called out as either sublime or pretentious nonsense. For some reason, that line and the entire song work for me, but I can see where someone could think it's pretentious (and yes, I DO know what the word "pretentious" means....good grief). Robyn Hitchcock, with his obsession with insects and vegetables, is another favorite of mine who also gets bashed for just stringing together random images that sound like they mean something but really don't. I'm of the opinion there's a logic at work there, but luckily there's plenty of humor.

That's not to say I dislike "Surf's Up". As a piece of music it's outstanding and *most* of the lyrics are evocative and help to set the mood. Some of them, however, seem forced as if the young VDP was puling an "I Am The Walrus" era John Lennon on us. "Let's see the f*****s work that one out" minus the deliberate tomfoolery. More like "This song doesn't really call for some of this flowery imagery, but won't it sound more impressive to everyone if I do it this way?".

I reckon I'll also be alone in thinking VDP did a more satisfying job on his own Song Cycle album. In fact, in a perfect world, I'd combine some of the finished SMiLE with tracks like "The All Golden" from Song Cycle (imagine that sequenced after "Wonderful"!) and complete Brian and VDP's intended American Gothic trip.
     

Hey, different strokes, friend. Its funny you say that because I personally think Surfs Up is overrated too (tho i still love it and maintain it shouldve been the single) but my beef isnt with the lyrics. Its with the music. Not Brian's best, not by a longshot. Compared to CIFOTM, CE etc I think the backing track to SU is noticeably weaker. I think its a weaker backing track than most of Pet Sounds too. I actually love the lyrics tho. I think theyre an amazing abstract stream of consciousness. Its like a prose poem, it doesnt all need to be literal or straightforward, but its fun to analyze and can mean a lot to different people. I agree Wonderful and CE lyrics are great too.

I like Heroes' lyrics. Theyre not super fantastic but a lot of the little phrases "dude'll do"/"stand-a-four"/"three score and five"/"sunny down snuff" all evoke that western feeling even if they may not make the most literal sense or be super meaningful. I also love the Cantina lyrics particularly and the contrast of a fun, upbeat song about losing the one you love in a violent gun toting town, having to raise your kids alone. Some may find the Franklin reference "healthy wealthy and wise" pretentious but y'know what...it sounds great as part of the song, it adds a bit of Americana and I like it

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hey GhostyTMRS, thanks for your response. As a matter of fact, I was feeling pretty guilty about the post you're replying to - as a freelance writer and former journalist, I fear that my frequent experience of being called 'pretentious' for using multi-syllabic words triggered a kneejerk reaction when reading your perfectly reasonable post. In short: I think I was probably something of a prick in writing it, and I apologise.

I know I'll get a lot of flak for this from 90% of the people here, but my main problem is with the lyric to "Surf's Up" (and to a lesser degree some of "Heroes and Villains"). Namechecking Poe's "The Pit and The Pendulum" has always struck me as ham-fisted and some of the others seem too precious for their own good like "Dove nested towers, the hours..", etc.

I kinda agree with you here, actually. In some cases, though, I believe that VDP's wordplay isn't so much pretentious (ie. flowery to conceal an actual lack of interest) or ham-fisted as willfully obscure. My understanding of 'The pit and the pendulum drawn' is that it's a three-way piece of wordplay: The context is a 'man at a concert' (Wilson in Spiegel) - when 'back through the opera glass [he] see[ s ] the Pit and the Pendulum drawn' - this being both a period-setting allusion to Poe and a literal reference to the 'theatre pit' in which the orchestra plays, and the 'pendulum' of a clock, ticking away the passage of time - one of the core subject matters of the song.

(It can also be noted that one can draw a pendulum back and forth - and 'drawn' also provides a thematic rhyme with the battles ('the drawing of weapons') alluded to later in the song.)

For example, I'm a sucker for Dylan and "Vision of Johanna" is my favorite song and lyric. "The ghost of electricity howls in the bones of her face" is a line that's usually called out as either sublime or pretentious nonsense. For some reason, that line and the entire song work for me, but I can see where someone could think it's pretentious

Absolutely. I think 'Visions' - music, lyrics, performance - may well be the most perfect piece of pop music ever put to tape. (Is such a statement allowed on a Beach Boys forum? )

(and yes, I DO know what the word "pretentious" means....good grief).

Again, a very genuine apology for what I wrote above.

[filledeplage]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

Thats what Danny Hutton speculates too, that he was weaning himself away from the band, trying to get them to think they were fine on their own so he could move on and produce other acts. Danny, being part of one of those acts, may be biased in saying so.

Still, Bruce differs pretty significantly from other witnesses in completely ignoring the band's internal tension (expected) and calling Brian constantly nervous at this time while Vosse and Anderle present a very childlike carefree (tho still dealing with a lot of tension and insecurity) creative spirit. Im not saying anyone is lying, but this is a good example of peoples biases, how they can only comment on what theyve seen, and why its good to consider other accounts. Its totally possible Brian tried to put on a front he didnt mind the Boys disagreements in front of them while venting about it to his friends.

Anyway, I just thought it was worth bringing up because he seemed to share the OP's thesis on the album's non-release

Mujan - this was neither Johnston's first BB album, nor was it the first band he was involved in. It was his fourth BB album.  It appears that he was involved with some kind of band dynamics (interpersonal relations with bands) for close to 8 or so years by that time and had done production in his own right so had perspective on the process with a long view, dismissing the drama.  It just seemed to the part of the scene. There is a lot of that kind of banter when Brian keeps pulling the guys back on task..."Let's cook now and eat later." (Party sessions)  

He seems to attribute the tension to the fact that GV was an enormous success and "how do you top that?" - it is was always "how do you top, this or the Beatles (and maybe the Stones even if they were in another dimension) and perhaps his perfection was wearing him down as well.  Brian was hard on Brian.

What is interesting is that Hutton and Volman went on to do incredible work in their own bands which were hugely successful but as lyrics go, they used really concrete lyrics.  That contrasts to some of what was used for Smile.  It appears they were less "experimental" with their own work.  Just how I see it.

But I think you can take Johnston's words to the bank, where the band worked tirelessly to make that project happen.  That prism series contains first hand (non-witness) but a principal, and all indications were that this band's members, including Jardine, who, in a rockcellar interview from 2013, talks about SMiLE in much the same candor, and the six months they worked on GV, night after night.  If they worked so well and so tirelessly on GV, there is a consistent and historic (as to them) work ethic.  The comprehensiveness of the 2011 release demonstrates their commitment.  It seems shocking that there are those who question that.  JMHO


It would have been in nobody's best interest to not give it the "old college try" but not unreasonable to be looking for more lyrical concreteness and less on the abstract end, to make it "available" for the fans.  At that point Brian was not on the road, so they had to "sell it."

In the prism interview is a section of the disappointment that Brian felt being let down with the record company's lack of validation with Pet Sounds.  But, Brian had to translate not to witnesses, but those who would "voice his vision" and that makes them (the band) the prime movers.  Not the observers, but the actual participants.  

There is this ongoing discussion of whether Sloop should have been on Pet Sounds and GV in it's place to make it as good as Sgt. Pepper's. And fans always asking why Surf's Up was not on what Jardine calls the "step child" of SMiLE, or Smiley. Sgt. Pepper's was cool and trendy but I don't think it is in the same class as Pet Sounds which came out a year after Pet Sounds, despite all the classics it contains.  

But, I'm not sure I agree with Johnston as GV might have overpowered the delicate work that Pet Sounds is. Sometimes you just need a contrast and maybe that was Sloop on Pet Sounds and it sparkles.  And Smiley, the step-child needed some voltage.  Surf's Up and GV - one on side A and the other on side B would have been outstanding, even if Smile was released in stages, instead of in tracks on subsequent tracks with Cabinessence on 20/20, and a clip of the workshop on Do it Again and Our Prayer.  Surf's Up would have opened the discussion for the rest of the project to follow, having been introduced six months prior by Bernstein.  
        

[GhostyTMRS]

Hey GhostyTMRS, thanks for your response. As a matter of fact, I was feeling pretty guilty about the post you're replying to - as a freelance writer and former journalist, I fear that my frequent experience of being called 'pretentious' for using multi-syllabic words triggered a kneejerk reaction when reading your perfectly reasonable post. In short: I think I was probably something of a prick in writing it, and I apologise.

I know I'll get a lot of flak for this from 90% of the people here, but my main problem is with the lyric to "Surf's Up" (and to a lesser degree some of "Heroes and Villains"). Namechecking Poe's "The Pit and The Pendulum" has always struck me as ham-fisted and some of the others seem too precious for their own good like "Dove nested towers, the hours..", etc.

I kinda agree with you here, actually. In some cases, though, I believe that VDP's wordplay isn't so much pretentious (ie. flowery to conceal an actual lack of interest) or ham-fisted as willfully obscure. My understanding of 'The pit and the pendulum drawn' is that it's a three-way piece of wordplay: The context is a 'man at a concert' (Wilson in Spiegel) - when 'back through the opera glass [he] see[ s ] the Pit and the Pendulum drawn' - this being both a period-setting allusion to Poe and a literal reference to the 'theatre pit' in which the orchestra plays, and the 'pendulum' of a clock, ticking away the passage of time - one of the core subject matters of the song.

(It can also be noted that one can draw a pendulum back and forth - and 'drawn' also provides a thematic rhyme with the battles ('the drawing of weapons') alluded to later in the song.)

For example, I'm a sucker for Dylan and "Vision of Johanna" is my favorite song and lyric. "The ghost of electricity howls in the bones of her face" is a line that's usually called out as either sublime or pretentious nonsense. For some reason, that line and the entire song work for me, but I can see where someone could think it's pretentious

Absolutely. I think 'Visions' - music, lyrics, performance - may well be the most perfect piece of pop music ever put to tape. (Is such a statement allowed on a Beach Boys forum? )

(and yes, I DO know what the word "pretentious" means....good grief).

Again, a very genuine apology for what I wrote above.

Hey man, no sweat. It's all good. I appreciate hearing your perspective on those lyrics!
Apologies backatcha. Generally I only have time to read or post on this board when it's late at night and I've had a crappy day, etc. and I'll write in a harsher tone than usual or let the most innocuous comment set me off, so I'm as guilty as anyone. In fact, as a rule, I try to lay low.   

[Emily]

I kinda agree with you here, actually. In some cases, though, I believe that VDP's wordplay isn't so much pretentious (ie. flowery to conceal an actual lack of interest) or ham-fisted as willfully obscure. My understanding of 'The pit and the pendulum drawn' is that it's a three-way piece of wordplay: The context is a 'man at a concert' (Wilson in Spiegel) - when 'back through the opera glass [he] see[ s ] the Pit and the Pendulum drawn' - this being both a period-setting allusion to Poe and a literal reference to the 'theatre pit' in which the orchestra plays, and the 'pendulum' of a clock, ticking away the passage of time - one of the core subject matters of the song.

(It can also be noted that one can draw a pendulum back and forth - and 'drawn' also provides a thematic rhyme with the battles ('the drawing of weapons') alluded to later in the song.)

after the orchestra 'pit' reference, the 'drawn' brings my mind to the stage curtains being drawn.
Eta - this is meant as an addition, not a counter, to your very nice collection of references.

[GhostyTMRS]

Some of which I find wonderful while some come off as incredibly pretentious.

I see the term 'pretentious' frequently employed on these boards, sometimes about other posters, but most often in reference to the lyrics or, indeed, speech/manner of Van Dyke Parks. One actual (and satisfactory) definition of that word: 'Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed.'

Is this actually what you mean when discussing the words for the SMiLE songs? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you if so, but if the term's going to be thrown about it'd be nice to know this is actually what you mean. At least then if there's going to be any debate over the merits of (and these are just examples - I do recognize you said you find some of his lyrics wonderful )  'She belongs there, left with her liberty' or - yes - 'Over and over, the crow cries uncover the cornfield', we'll understand the terms of that debate going in. Especially because you consider some of the lyrics to 'come off' as 'incredibly' attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed. This strikes me as a bold line to take - even with the most esoteric verses he wrote - but I'm interested to read your arguments.

I had meant to reply to this as soon as I could but I've been all-Bowie-all-the-time since early Monday morning.

Yes, I do find some of the lyrics cringeworthy (although I strongly disagree with those who think the whole collaboration was a mistake). Interesting that you quoted lines from "Wonderful" and "Cabin-Essence" as those are two songs where I feel the marriage of music and lyrics work spectacularly well, and are easily my two favorites from the whole project. Both lyrics work as excellent impressionist pieces.
I know I'll get a lot of flak for this from 90% of the people here, but my main problem is with the lyric to "Surf's Up" (and to a lesser degree some of "Heroes and Villains"). Namechecking Poe's "The Pit and The Pendulum" has always struck me as ham-fisted and some of the others seem too precious for their own good like "Dove nested towers, the hours..", etc.
One's appreciation of a lyric is always going to be subjective. For example, I'm a sucker for Dylan and "Vision of Johanna" is my favorite song and lyric. "The ghost of electricity howls in the bones of her face" is a line that's usually called out as either sublime or pretentious nonsense. For some reason, that line and the entire song work for me, but I can see where someone could think it's pretentious (and yes, I DO know what the word "pretentious" means....good grief). Robyn Hitchcock, with his obsession with insects and vegetables, is another favorite of mine who also gets bashed for just stringing together random images that sound like they mean something but really don't. I'm of the opinion there's a logic at work there, but luckily there's plenty of humor.

That's not to say I dislike "Surf's Up". As a piece of music it's outstanding and *most* of the lyrics are evocative and help to set the mood. Some of them, however, seem forced as if the young VDP was puling an "I Am The Walrus" era John Lennon on us. "Let's see the f*****s work that one out" minus the deliberate tomfoolery. More like "This song doesn't really call for some of this flowery imagery, but won't it sound more impressive to everyone if I do it this way?".

I reckon I'll also be alone in thinking VDP did a more satisfying job on his own Song Cycle album. In fact, in a perfect world, I'd combine some of the finished SMiLE with tracks like "The All Golden" from Song Cycle (imagine that sequenced after "Wonderful"!) and complete Brian and VDP's intended American Gothic trip.
     

Hey, different strokes, friend. Its funny you say that because I personally think Surfs Up is overrated too (tho i still love it and maintain it shouldve been the single) but my beef isnt with the lyrics. Its with the music. Not Brian's best, not by a longshot. Compared to CIFOTM, CE etc I think the backing track to SU is noticeably weaker. I think its a weaker backing track than most of Pet Sounds too. I actually love the lyrics tho. I think theyre an amazing abstract stream of consciousness. Its like a prose poem, it doesnt all need to be literal or straightforward, but its fun to analyze and can mean a lot to different people. I agree Wonderful and CE lyrics are great too.

I like Heroes' lyrics. Theyre not super fantastic but a lot of the little phrases "dude'll do"/"stand-a-four"/"three score and five"/"sunny down snuff" all evoke that western feeling even if they may not make the most literal sense or be super meaningful. I also love the Cantina lyrics particularly and the contrast of a fun, upbeat song about losing the one you love in a violent gun toting town, having to raise your kids alone. Some may find the Franklin reference "healthy wealthy and wise" pretentious but y'know what...it sounds great as part of the song, it adds a bit of Americana and I like it

I'm glad you said it about the backing track and not me.  I always prefer the version of just Brian at the piano. THAT performance should've been the single to follow up GV. What a contrast! ...and I think I'm experiencing deja-vu. Didn't we both agree on this in another thread somewhere? 


 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Some of which I find wonderful while some come off as incredibly pretentious.

I see the term 'pretentious' frequently employed on these boards, sometimes about other posters, but most often in reference to the lyrics or, indeed, speech/manner of Van Dyke Parks. One actual (and satisfactory) definition of that word: 'Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed.'

Is this actually what you mean when discussing the words for the SMiLE songs? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you if so, but if the term's going to be thrown about it'd be nice to know this is actually what you mean. At least then if there's going to be any debate over the merits of (and these are just examples - I do recognize you said you find some of his lyrics wonderful )  'She belongs there, left with her liberty' or - yes - 'Over and over, the crow cries uncover the cornfield', we'll understand the terms of that debate going in. Especially because you consider some of the lyrics to 'come off' as 'incredibly' attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed. This strikes me as a bold line to take - even with the most esoteric verses he wrote - but I'm interested to read your arguments.

I had meant to reply to this as soon as I could but I've been all-Bowie-all-the-time since early Monday morning.

Yes, I do find some of the lyrics cringeworthy (although I strongly disagree with those who think the whole collaboration was a mistake). Interesting that you quoted lines from "Wonderful" and "Cabin-Essence" as those are two songs where I feel the marriage of music and lyrics work spectacularly well, and are easily my two favorites from the whole project. Both lyrics work as excellent impressionist pieces.
I know I'll get a lot of flak for this from 90% of the people here, but my main problem is with the lyric to "Surf's Up" (and to a lesser degree some of "Heroes and Villains"). Namechecking Poe's "The Pit and The Pendulum" has always struck me as ham-fisted and some of the others seem too precious for their own good like "Dove nested towers, the hours..", etc.
One's appreciation of a lyric is always going to be subjective. For example, I'm a sucker for Dylan and "Vision of Johanna" is my favorite song and lyric. "The ghost of electricity howls in the bones of her face" is a line that's usually called out as either sublime or pretentious nonsense. For some reason, that line and the entire song work for me, but I can see where someone could think it's pretentious (and yes, I DO know what the word "pretentious" means....good grief). Robyn Hitchcock, with his obsession with insects and vegetables, is another favorite of mine who also gets bashed for just stringing together random images that sound like they mean something but really don't. I'm of the opinion there's a logic at work there, but luckily there's plenty of humor.

That's not to say I dislike "Surf's Up". As a piece of music it's outstanding and *most* of the lyrics are evocative and help to set the mood. Some of them, however, seem forced as if the young VDP was puling an "I Am The Walrus" era John Lennon on us. "Let's see the f*****s work that one out" minus the deliberate tomfoolery. More like "This song doesn't really call for some of this flowery imagery, but won't it sound more impressive to everyone if I do it this way?".

I reckon I'll also be alone in thinking VDP did a more satisfying job on his own Song Cycle album. In fact, in a perfect world, I'd combine some of the finished SMiLE with tracks like "The All Golden" from Song Cycle (imagine that sequenced after "Wonderful"!) and complete Brian and VDP's intended American Gothic trip.
     

Hey, different strokes, friend. Its funny you say that because I personally think Surfs Up is overrated too (tho i still love it and maintain it shouldve been the single) but my beef isnt with the lyrics. Its with the music. Not Brian's best, not by a longshot. Compared to CIFOTM, CE etc I think the backing track to SU is noticeably weaker. I think its a weaker backing track than most of Pet Sounds too. I actually love the lyrics tho. I think theyre an amazing abstract stream of consciousness. Its like a prose poem, it doesnt all need to be literal or straightforward, but its fun to analyze and can mean a lot to different people. I agree Wonderful and CE lyrics are great too.

I like Heroes' lyrics. Theyre not super fantastic but a lot of the little phrases "dude'll do"/"stand-a-four"/"three score and five"/"sunny down snuff" all evoke that western feeling even if they may not make the most literal sense or be super meaningful. I also love the Cantina lyrics particularly and the contrast of a fun, upbeat song about losing the one you love in a violent gun toting town, having to raise your kids alone. Some may find the Franklin reference "healthy wealthy and wise" pretentious but y'know what...it sounds great as part of the song, it adds a bit of Americana and I like it

I'm glad you said it about the backing track and not me.  I always prefer the version of just Brian at the piano. THAT performance should've been the single to follow up GV. What a contrast! ...and I think I'm experiencing deja-vu. Didn't we both agree on this in another thread somewhere? 

Im almost certain of it. Gah, what a horrible choice, H&V.

I agree. I use my version of the complex SU in my mixes so it fits stylistically, but whenever Im listening to just the song on its own, its always the Wild Honey version. That is so much more profound. THAT is Brian's heart and soul offered up in music, and what should have been his signature song. But where we disagree is I think thats because the power of that track is in the lyrics and his beautiful delivery of them. All that unnecessary instrumentation only distracts from that. I really do love the horns wailing over the fade, but theres no absolute proof that was even the plain.