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Author Topic: Good Vibrations Success and Smile's Demise  (Read 69273 times)
Paul J B
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« on: December 18, 2015, 12:30:03 PM »

After all of the years and all of the theories about Smile collapsing, it seems to me that Good Vibrations being a monster hit had much more to do with the albums demise than perhaps anything else. This has been on my mind a lot since seeing L&M last June.  It really dawned on me after watching the scenes with Brian and Mike first touching on the song. Mike's lyrics, after Tony Asher and Pet Sounds, and while Smile is already in the works with some of Parks lyrics, Good Vibrations becomes their biggest single ever, as the scene with Marilyn reiterates.

I pulled up a thread, really good one by the way, started by The_Holy_Bee from 2012. This comment below by Wirestone is great.


Wirestone:
"This feels right to me. I think I posted last year that something clearly changes in the sessions as 67 dawns. Brian stops making an album and starts fixating on individual tracks. And as he does that, the re-recording and shuffling problems become greater. And he begins to see that H&V and Veggies and Dada -- none of them are surefire follow ups to Good Vibes. At which point he's screwed, right? Because what did he spend the last six or seven months doing, then?"

So, I'm not saying no one has considered this, but what I find baffling is that it seems to get lost in the Smile discussions and I would think it's the KEY reason things went awry.
 
Drugs...Mike and Parks...too many chunks of music to try and piece together....the label release date approaching .....ect.  Those reasons are not nearly as altering in the Smile timeline as Good Vibrations success. It's right there in front of us. In The_Holy_Bee thread he clearly lays out the FACTS that Smile was nearly ready in November, then this monster hit takes hold and things change.  I think Brian got spooked by GV success and wanted Smile to be a number one album, (especially since Pet Sounds did not soar)  and he became doubtful.  Then all of the unraveling began.

See below if you want the other thread I referenced. I rarely start threads but this has really been on my mind and I felt it's worth looking at freshly.
   
Holy Bee returns with latest crackpot theory: SMiLE almost done in Nov 66
« on: March 19, 2012, 08:08:38 AM »
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2015, 12:40:20 PM »

Timeline doesn't seem to stack up: "GV" was released October 10th 1966, charted October 22nd and hit Top 20 November 5th,  #1 December 10th, thus it was an obvious hit by mid-November. Yet Brian was still holding Smile sessions late November and into December before he started concentrating on "H&V" in January 1967.
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Paul J B
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2015, 02:33:43 PM »

Timeline doesn't seem to stack up: "GV" was released October 10th 1966, charted October 22nd and hit Top 20 November 5th,  #1 December 10th, thus it was an obvious hit by mid-November. Yet Brian was still holding Smile sessions late November and into December before he started concentrating on "H&V" in January 1967.

Right as usual on your dates but it does add up to me. TSS book among other things, like the track list being printed on the sleeve show that even though there were vocals to cut most of the tracks were done and not all piece mail as Holy Bee pointed out. It was 90 some percent in the can then GV just grows bigger and bigger and by January it's all on hold and Brian starts pulling a GV on Heroes and Villians. It just makes total sense to me.
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 03:00:23 PM »

90 % ?  Think not - "The Elements" alone was 75% unrecorded... "Vega-Tables" was barely begun (the "cornucopia" early version).

Not saying that in January Brian didn't loose focus big time, but I don't think it was due to "GV" being a huge hit so much as the realisation that he couldn't do a whole album that way, i.e. modularly.
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 03:04:28 PM »

Only way I can think that Good Vibes led to Smile's demise was perhaps in convincing Brian that he could apply the modular concept to basically an entire album which seems to have driven him batty and unable to complete the job.  Along with the numerous other factors.
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Paul J B
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2015, 05:19:09 PM »

90% in the can based on that 2012 essay by Holy Bee...and I think he is close. The elements were never supposed to be what legend turned them into IMO. I'm also talking about the twelve track listing on the back of the printed sleeve. Most people now agree since the album was only ONE record that the BWPS is not as close to what was intentionally planned. Most of that track listing on the sleeve was done by December minus some vocal sessions if I recall correctly.

Also,  the Mike and Parks clashing thing is always about personalities or "Mike didn't like the lyrics"...maybe so, but why is it never discussed that the album was progressing really well until Good Vibrations with Mikes lyrics became their biggest smash ever. If that wouldn't have caused friction, or caused Brian to rethink his work with Parks then what would. That's what hit me when I saw the movie. Like a light bulb. Guess it was just me.

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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2015, 09:04:36 PM »

I like this post a whole lot. First one in a while that's made me re-think things about The Beach Boys' history. Ambitious too.
Can't fully get behind the theory. It's just as plausible that Good Vibrations could have made him more confident in the whole modular method. Maybe it's a bit of both. I don't know.
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2015, 03:11:56 AM »

I've been thinking if Brian was really that happy with some of VDP's lyrics. Is it coincidence that we basically have SMiLE era lead vocals for all of those songs that were rerecorded for Smiley Smile and no lead vocals for the song's that weren't? As if Brian was happy with those lyrics and not so much with the other ones.

Coming back to GV, it was kind of impossible to do a whole album the way he did GV, recording new versions again and again for months and then assemble a Frankenstein backing track from the best of the sessions. That way SMiLE would have been finished in about February 1972.
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2015, 08:04:54 AM »

90 % ?  Think not - "The Elements" alone was 75% unrecorded... "Vega-Tables" was barely begun (the "cornucopia" early version).

Not saying that in January Brian didn't loose focus big time, but I don't think it was due to "GV" being a huge hit so much as the realisation that he couldn't do a whole album that way, i.e. modularly.


Fire - Mrs. O' Leary's Cow

Water - Various Chants and Water Sounds for 1966.

Air - Supposed instrumental attempt (as Brian hints in 1978), OR Smog Rant and Breathing skit.

Earth - Vega-Tanles Cornucopia, Earth Chants, Sleep A Lot, etc.



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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2015, 08:10:41 AM »

- Mark Linnet hinted "Child" lead vocals were once attempted.

- An I'm In Great Shape vocal session was held.

- Surf's Up Pt. 2 is rumored to be recorded instrumentally.

- Do You Like Worms? lead melody and lyrics were written.

- Fire instrumental was recorded. Water chant and sounds were recorded. Air instrumental was attempted (a piano instrumental as Brian suggested), and Earth was Vega-Tables in 1966.

All these points lead in favour that SMiLE corrupted due to financial and business related problems more than anything else, except maybe for band dynamics itself, which is a whole other area of disscussion.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 08:13:10 AM by The Old Master Painter » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2015, 09:26:40 PM »

All these points lead in favour that SMiLE corrupted due to financial and business related problems more than anything else

I'm sorry, but I don't see a connection between your points and this conclusion. Really sorry!
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2015, 10:38:27 PM »

and Earth was Vega-Tables in 1966.

Care to explain why it's listed separately from "The Elements" on the back cover ?

As for Smile being 90% complete by spring 1967... Brian has stated that he needed another year to finish it. Maybe he should have changed his name to Dennis Contrelle.  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2015, 12:25:00 AM »

and Earth was Vega-Tables in 1966.

Care to explain why it's listed separately from "The Elements" on the back cover ?

That is because of a total lack of coordination within the whole project. The printed booklet specifically claims that V-T is part of "The Elements", as we all know, while the back cover never got printed at all AFAIK. VDP also said V-T was the only part of "The Elements" he worked on.

Whether V-T was really an apt tune to be part of the same track as Fire, that's for everybody to decide for themselves.
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2015, 05:15:45 AM »

I think the theory has merit as yet another factor that could have distracted/derailed the project.

- upped pressure to match it chart-wise
- upped pressure to top it artistically
- vindication of Mike's lyrics potentially changing the dynamic of their relationship at the time
- vindication of the modular approach

Also, I disagree that it "being a hit" is the same thing as it "hitting no. 1", particularly given the time and effort involved in producing it. The week of December 10 seems to line up with a shift in the project.

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Paul J B
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2015, 08:39:01 AM »

To be clear, I don't believe the Smile album was initially intended to be modular. A 30 plus minute album with a dozen separate tracks is what was apparently intended. Connected by a theme, yes, but not connected in the sense that one track flows into the next with parts of the same music interwoven. I just don't see it that way, even if that's how BWPS turned out. The reason so many Smile buffs prefer their own mix and  seemingly a majority now favor revisiting Smile as stand alone tracks rather than the 3 part suite that came out 40 years later, I would argue, is because MOST of a 12 track album was there before all of Brian's revisiting and tinkering that started after GV hit number #1. Revisit the session dates in TSS book closely and most of the pieces of music do not appear to be recorded snippets all over the place out of sequence that could all be spliced together later. It seems it turned into fragments and pieces because in '67 Brian started reworking and rethinking so much of it...especially Heroes and Villains. That seems to be where and when a lot of the material to go the modular route comes from.





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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2015, 01:38:08 PM »

and Earth was Vega-Tables in 1966.

Care to explain why it's listed separately from "The Elements" on the back cover ?

That is because of a total lack of coordination within the whole project. The printed booklet specifically claims that V-T is part of "The Elements", as we all know, while the back cover never got printed at all AFAIK. VDP also said V-T was the only part of "The Elements" he worked on.

Whether V-T was really an apt tune to be part of the same track as Fire, that's for everybody to decide for themselves.

The handwritten list was handed in mid-December, while the memo requesting orders for the booklet is dated December 3rd. Now, bearing in mind that Frank Holmes had to have several weeks to work up the drawings, his illustration with the caption "My Vega-tables" The Elements must date from late September/early October. Maybe the track was cherry-picked from "The Elements" to become a stand alone song. No-one knows...
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2015, 01:49:47 PM »

Also - it is a fine distinction but - the booklet art shows "My Vega-tables" as a lyric rather than a title it seems.  So more mystery.
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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2015, 08:54:47 AM »

You can certainly make the argument that the tracking was 80-90% done, only Great Shape (whatever else was to be included in the song is unclear) and Elements are obvioulsy lacking (assuming Brian was going with the cornucopia Vegetables in November), the vocals . . . more like 50-60%.
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« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2015, 05:59:20 PM »

I think it is valid to say that by September to early December of 1966, Van Dyke and Brian concieved Vega-Tables as Earth. Evidence to support this is:

- The Psychodelic Chants Boot (WHICH WAS TAPED IN NOVEMBER) includes many skits and chants, including chants related to ALL THREE of the remaining Elements. FIRE WAS CUT IN NOVEMBER. Water exists as various chants, Air exsits as the "Breathing" segment and the "Smog" rant. There also exists numerous Vega-Tables related-chants, therefore it is fair to draw the conclusion that Vega-Tables was concieved Earth in NOVEMBER or earlier.

- Van Dyke Parks has quoted that "Vega-Tables" was the only part of "The Elements" he worked on, therefore it WAS part of "The Elements"

- Van Dyke told Frank Holmes, who designed the album cover and the SMiLE booklet that "My Vega-Tables" was a part of "The Elements." The drawings and notations of the SMiLE booklet were reportedly submitted around October/December,

AFTER mid-December, Vega-Tables was SCRAPPED from The Elements. Evidence that supports this claim is:

-In December of 1966, Brian decided he had to issue "Vega-Tables" as a single. Therefore, he, Hal Blaine, and Mike Vosse(?) held a recording session in order to promote the new single.

- In late December/January, when Brian had to write a shortlist for the tracks that would appear on the album, he listed "Vega-Tables" as a seperate track from "The Elements."
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« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2015, 06:39:46 PM »

I think it is valid to say that by September to early December of 1966, Van Dyke and Brian concieved Vega-Tables as Earth. Evidence to support this is:

- The Psychodelic Chants Boot (WHICH WAS TAPED IN NOVEMBER) includes many skits and chants, including chants related to ALL THREE of the remaining Elements. FIRE WAS CUT IN NOVEMBER. Water exists as various chants, Air exsits as the "Breathing" segment and the "Smog" rant. There also exists numerous Vega-Tables related-chants, therefore it is fair to draw the conclusion that Vega-Tables was concieved Earth in NOVEMBER or earlier.

- Van Dyke Parks has quoted that "Vega-Tables" was the only part of "The Elements" he worked on, therefore it WAS part of "The Elements"

- Van Dyke told Frank Holmes, who designed the album cover and the SMiLE booklet that "My Vega-Tables" was a part of "The Elements." The drawings and notations of the SMiLE booklet were reportedly submitted around October/December,

AFTER mid-December, Vega-Tables was SCRAPPED from The Elements. Evidence that supports this claim is:

-In December of 1966, Brian decided he had to issue "Vega-Tables" as a single. Therefore, he, Hal Blaine, and Mike Vosse(?) held a recording session in order to promote the new single.

- In late December/January, when Brian had to write a shortlist for the tracks that would appear on the album, he listed "Vega-Tables" as a seperate track from "The Elements."

Wait a minute, this is either news to me or you are rewriting history here, please backup your statements, they are pretty bold:
- What's this VT recording session to "promote" the single? are you talking about the skit on hawthorne with the backing fade? wasn't that a late 90's recreation?
- Where are you getting that Van Dyke told Frank Holmes that "My Vega-Tables" was a part of "The Elements."? I've never heard that. In light of the drawings, you can assume, of course, but did VDP actually tell FH that VT was part of the Elements?
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« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2015, 06:46:13 PM »

After all of the years and all of the theories about Smile collapsing, it seems to me that Good Vibrations being a monster hit had much more to do with the albums demise than perhaps anything else. This has been on my mind a lot since seeing L&M last June.  It really dawned on me after watching the scenes with Brian and Mike first touching on the song. Mike's lyrics, after Tony Asher and Pet Sounds, and while Smile is already in the works with some of Parks lyrics, Good Vibrations becomes their biggest single ever, as the scene with Marilyn reiterates.

I pulled up a thread, really good one by the way, started by The_Holy_Bee from 2012. This comment below by Wirestone is great.


Wirestone:
"This feels right to me. I think I posted last year that something clearly changes in the sessions as 67 dawns. Brian stops making an album and starts fixating on individual tracks. And as he does that, the re-recording and shuffling problems become greater. And he begins to see that H&V and Veggies and Dada -- none of them are surefire follow ups to Good Vibes. At which point he's screwed, right? Because what did he spend the last six or seven months doing, then?"

So, I'm not saying no one has considered this, but what I find baffling is that it seems to get lost in the Smile discussions and I would think it's the KEY reason things went awry.
 
Drugs...Mike and Parks...too many chunks of music to try and piece together....the label release date approaching .....ect.  Those reasons are not nearly as altering in the Smile timeline as Good Vibrations success. It's right there in front of us. In The_Holy_Bee thread he clearly lays out the FACTS that Smile was nearly ready in November, then this monster hit takes hold and things change.  I think Brian got spooked by GV success and wanted Smile to be a number one album, (especially since Pet Sounds did not soar)  and he became doubtful.  Then all of the unraveling began.

See below if you want the other thread I referenced. I rarely start threads but this has really been on my mind and I felt it's worth looking at freshly.
   
Holy Bee returns with latest crackpot theory: SMiLE almost done in Nov 66
« on: March 19, 2012, 08:08:38 AM »

On the contrary, I think this is actually a pretty common theory. Anyone looking at the sessions for the first time would be shocked to see work on nearly everything halted in December and come the new year suddenly its all Heroes for three months solid, followed by brief flirtations with Veggies and Dada and then back to Heroes and Smiley again. It seems pretty clear he wanted to have a big song equal to GV on the album and as a followup single, and for some reason I still cant figure out, he picked the least commercial song on the album and reworked it endlessly to try to make it more commercial. But Ive heard people say since I got here that it was all a lost cause from the get go. Heroes is just not a good enough standalone single to match GV and it was never going to be. Ive always felt he shouldve just done Surfs Up--even a stripped down one like the Wild Honey version--because it was demoed on TV and would be a surefire hit by that alone. Plus it would be the perfect counterpoint to GV if it was stripped down, and the title would be the perfect trojan horse. It wouldve really kept their audience on their toes, wondering what to expect from this new album with all the surprises from the Beach Boys camp with a one-two punch like that. Also, I dont see why there was this urgency for a new single anyway--youve already got one at the top of the charts. Take another two or three months to finish the album, Brian, and THEN worry about picking and possibly reworking a song for a second single. But...what's done is done, sadly.
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« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2015, 07:17:46 PM »

I think it is valid to say that by September to early December of 1966, Van Dyke and Brian concieved Vega-Tables as Earth. Evidence to support this is:

- The Psychodelic Chants Boot (WHICH WAS TAPED IN NOVEMBER) includes many skits and chants, including chants related to ALL THREE of the remaining Elements. FIRE WAS CUT IN NOVEMBER. Water exists as various chants, Air exsits as the "Breathing" segment and the "Smog" rant. There also exists numerous Vega-Tables related-chants, therefore it is fair to draw the conclusion that Vega-Tables was concieved Earth in NOVEMBER or earlier.

- Van Dyke Parks has quoted that "Vega-Tables" was the only part of "The Elements" he worked on, therefore it WAS part of "The Elements"

- Van Dyke told Frank Holmes, who designed the album cover and the SMiLE booklet that "My Vega-Tables" was a part of "The Elements." The drawings and notations of the SMiLE booklet were reportedly submitted around October/December,

AFTER mid-December, Vega-Tables was SCRAPPED from The Elements. Evidence that supports this claim is:

-In December of 1966, Brian decided he had to issue "Vega-Tables" as a single. Therefore, he, Hal Blaine, and Mike Vosse(?) held a recording session in order to promote the new single.

- In late December/January, when Brian had to write a shortlist for the tracks that would appear on the album, he listed "Vega-Tables" as a seperate track from "The Elements."

You're confused - the idea to release Vegetables as a single instead of Heroes was in March 67 after sessions for Heroes came to a halt.  The Vegetables skit was never slated or referred to at the time as a promo- Hawthorne referred to it as a promo but there is no evidence for that, only speculation without any basis.  At the time the Vegetables arguments were taped Vegetables was presumably still part of the Elements.  So what did Brian intend to do with the Veggie skit?  Brian was talking about a comedy album separate from Smile . . . he was recording other skits at this time (falling into microphone, falling into piano, having Diane tell stupid jokes, etc) whose purpose is also unknown . . . Perhaps he was thinking of using a short excerpt from the Veggie arguments as an introduction or coda to the track, as he would do years later with the T.M. Song (and there is in the vaults a longer version of that TM song argument) . . . Brian seemed obsessed with putting on tape almost every idea that came into his head during the Smile era, whether nature sounds, a basketball game, a cab driver's monologue.
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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2015, 07:17:59 PM »

90% in the can based on that 2012 essay by Holy Bee...and I think he is close. The elements were never supposed to be what legend turned them into IMO. I'm also talking about the twelve track listing on the back of the printed sleeve. Most people now agree since the album was only ONE record that the BWPS is not as close to what was intentionally planned. Most of that track listing on the sleeve was done by December minus some vocal sessions if I recall correctly.

Also,  the Mike and Parks clashing thing is always about personalities or "Mike didn't like the lyrics"...maybe so, but why is it never discussed that the album was progressing really well until Good Vibrations with Mikes lyrics became their biggest smash ever. If that wouldn't have caused friction, or caused Brian to rethink his work with Parks then what would. That's what hit me when I saw the movie. Like a light bulb. Guess it was just me.

Well...Holy Bee is hardly the authority on the subject. Thats not a dig at him, but hes just a poster like us, using the facts available like us. He could be wrong--and personally I think some of his theories are--and he could be right, but like everyone here he shouldnt be taken as fact.

I'll tell you what the elements were never meant to be. They were never meant to be VT, WC, Fire and Dada as a separate suite and unlike most SMiLE theories, this one I am 99.999% sure of. Its just wishful thinking from those who want to think we've heard it all, and that Brian really did finish the old album as it would have been. The truth is, we dont know what the other 3 elements were. Its possible VT was originally an element--theres strong evidence for it. There's also evidence against it. There's NONE whatsoever for WC and Dada tho, but plenty for those two being the Breathing and Underwater skits, or else something else we have never heard and never will...maybe something never recorded or even written. But there's plenty of evidence of it being one track and none I can see of it being a whole side.

I agree, BWPS is very different from what we would have gotten.

Its a good point that GV going number one could make Brian rethink going in a different lyrical direction. I do think there's some evidence he wasnt gaga for Parks either. The Fusion and even Crawdaddy pieces mention he and VDP not getting along too well either. And Brian absolutely set him up with the Cabin Essence incident, I think he wanted them to both argue the merits to their approaches and pick the winner, and when VDP wouldnt do that, it made him doubt him and his ideas.

I've been thinking if Brian was really that happy with some of VDP's lyrics. Is it coincidence that we basically have SMiLE era lead vocals for all of those songs that were rerecorded for Smiley Smile and no lead vocals for the song's that weren't? As if Brian was happy with those lyrics and not so much with the other ones.

Coming back to GV, it was kind of impossible to do a whole album the way he did GV, recording new versions again and again for months and then assemble a Frankenstein backing track from the best of the sessions. That way SMiLE would have been finished in about February 1972.

Thats another good piece of evidence for what I said just now. I dont think it wouldve taken THAT long had he knew what he wanted...and he did seem to know for awhile...but then he doubted himself and it just wasnt going to happen.

90 % ?  Think not - "The Elements" alone was 75% unrecorded... "Vega-Tables" was barely begun (the "cornucopia" early version).

Not saying that in January Brian didn't loose focus big time, but I don't think it was due to "GV" being a huge hit so much as the realisation that he couldn't do a whole album that way, i.e. modularly.


Fire - Mrs. O' Leary's Cow

Water - Various Chants and Water Sounds for 1966.

Air - Supposed instrumental attempt (as Brian hints in 1978), OR Smog Rant and Breathing skit.

Earth - Vega-Tanles Cornucopia, Earth Chants, Sleep A Lot, etc.

^Exactly. This, or something in that vein is the most plausible elements, imho. Had Brian not etched the earlier speculations about Dada and WC in stone by doing the third movement in BWPS, there'd be no debate about this. And again, I dont think BWPS should count as evidence.

To be clear, I don't believe the Smile album was initially intended to be modular. A 30 plus minute album with a dozen separate tracks is what was apparently intended. Connected by a theme, yes, but not connected in the sense that one track flows into the next with parts of the same music interwoven. I just don't see it that way, even if that's how BWPS turned out. The reason so many Smile buffs prefer their own mix and  seemingly a majority now favor revisiting Smile as stand alone tracks rather than the 3 part suite that came out 40 years later, I would argue, is because MOST of a 12 track album was there before all of Brian's revisiting and tinkering that started after GV hit number #1. Revisit the session dates in TSS book closely and most of the pieces of music do not appear to be recorded snippets all over the place out of sequence that could all be spliced together later. It seems it turned into fragments and pieces because in '67 Brian started reworking and rethinking so much of it...especially Heroes and Villains. That seems to be where and when a lot of the material to go the modular route comes from.

Hmmm...I dont know about that. Werent the songs often recorded in pieces? Only the first half of Surfs Up, seperate sessions for different parts of Worms, Cabin, etc...the verses and choruses for both were played with back and forth, what would go with what wasnt really set it stone...And there's the Fusion Article which mentions a version of Heroes leading into My Only Sunshine. There seems to be evidence it was always modular, just maybe not as much as GV. You can have an album of modular songs and the occasional comedy skit without it all linking together. I agree BWPS shouldnt be used as evidence for how the original wouldve been, and I agree a 2-sided 12 track album works WAY better than the new 3-suite 17~19 track album that BWPS became. H&V is definitely the most modular due to the endless tinkering in '67, and I agree this is a source of a lot of misinformation, like people thinking both Heroes and Worms would use the same chorus, or that the whole album would be part of Heroes and Villains, etc.

- Mark Linnet hinted "Child" lead vocals were once attempted.

- An I'm In Great Shape vocal session was held.

- Surf's Up Pt. 2 is rumored to be recorded instrumentally.

- Do You Like Worms? lead melody and lyrics were written.

- Fire instrumental was recorded. Water chant and sounds were recorded. Air instrumental was attempted (a piano instrumental as Brian suggested), and Earth was Vega-Tables in 1966.

All these points lead in favour that SMiLE corrupted due to financial and business related problems more than anything else, except maybe for band dynamics itself, which is a whole other area of disscussion.

Indeed. Certainly it lends credence to the idea the album was closer to completion in Nov~Dec than some give it credit for, which in turn means its fair to speculate what it was shaping up to be and all these "there was no plan/Brian had no idea what he was doing" posts arent fair or backed up by the evidence. Im not sure these necesarily means financial problems, tho. And Id like a source for that Mark Linett quote about CIFOTM--not that I dont believe you, but I want to read it. I wonder if hes ever said what they were, at least what he can remember.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
Micha
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2015, 10:20:36 PM »

and all these "there was no plan/Brian had no idea what he was doing" posts arent fair or backed up by the evidence.

I don't think there was a "plan" as "the definite tracklist" during the SMiLE era. He didn't record Holidays and Look in spite knowing he wouldn't put them on the December tracklist. The whole plan consisted of "making a great album, preferrably the best album there ever was".

And with that first version of Wonderful in the can, if you then record the Rock me Henry version as a replacement, you really don't know what you're doing! Cheesy

I agree that probably neither Wind Chimes nor Dada were written as part of "The Elements", especially as Dada had a childhood theme originally. But the decision to use them for "The Elements" with turning Dada into a water themed song is a decision Brian could just as well have made back then in order to finish the album, so claiming the way "The Elements" was handled on BWPS so to speak isn't the "right way" because at some point in time the concept was different isn't really justified.


You can certainly make the argument that the tracking was 80-90% done, only Great Shape (whatever else was to be included in the song is unclear) and Elements are obvioulsy lacking (assuming Brian was going with the cornucopia Vegetables in November), the vocals . . . more like 50-60%.

Well, had Brian abandoned GV after the first 2 or 3 recording sessions, you could even claim 100% of its tracking was done, but in Brian's mind it wasn't.
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Ceterum censeo SMiLEBrianum OSDumque esse excludendos banno.
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2015, 11:47:02 AM »

90% in the can based on that 2012 essay by Holy Bee...and I think he is close. The elements were never supposed to be what legend turned them into IMO. I'm also talking about the twelve track listing on the back of the printed sleeve. Most people now agree since the album was only ONE record that the BWPS is not as close to what was intentionally planned. Most of that track listing on the sleeve was done by December minus some vocal sessions if I recall correctly.

Also,  the Mike and Parks clashing thing is always about personalities or "Mike didn't like the lyrics"...maybe so, but why is it never discussed that the album was progressing really well until Good Vibrations with Mikes lyrics became their biggest smash ever. If that wouldn't have caused friction, or caused Brian to rethink his work with Parks then what would. That's what hit me when I saw the movie. Like a light bulb. Guess it was just me.



Well...Holy Bee is hardly the authority on the subject. Thats not a dig at him, but hes just a poster like us, using the facts available like us. He could be wrong--and personally I think some of his theories are--and he could be right, but like everyone here he shouldnt be taken as fact.

I'll tell you what the elements were never meant to be. They were never meant to be VT, WC, Fire and Dada as a separate suite and unlike most SMiLE theories, this one I am 99.999% sure of. Its just wishful thinking from those who want to think we've heard it all, and that Brian really did finish the old album as it would have been. The truth is, we dont know what the other 3 elements were. Its possible VT was originally an element--theres strong evidence for it. There's also evidence against it. There's NONE whatsoever for WC and Dada tho, but plenty for those two being the Breathing and Underwater skits, or else something else we have never heard and never will...maybe something never recorded or even written. But there's plenty of evidence of it being one track and none I can see of it being a whole side.

I agree, BWPS is very different from what we would have gotten.

Its a good point that GV going number one could make Brian rethink going in a different lyrical direction. I do think there's some evidence he wasnt gaga for Parks either. The Fusion and even Crawdaddy pieces mention he and VDP not getting along too well either. And Brian absolutely set him up with the Cabin Essence incident, I think he wanted them to both argue the merits to their approaches and pick the winner, and when VDP wouldnt do that, it made him doubt him and his ideas.

I've been thinking if Brian was really that happy with some of VDP's lyrics. Is it coincidence that we basically have SMiLE era lead vocals for all of those songs that were rerecorded for Smiley Smile and no lead vocals for the song's that weren't? As if Brian was happy with those lyrics and not so much with the other ones.

Coming back to GV, it was kind of impossible to do a whole album the way he did GV, recording new versions again and again for months and then assemble a Frankenstein backing track from the best of the sessions. That way SMiLE would have been finished in about February 1972.

Thats another good piece of evidence for what I said just now. I dont think it wouldve taken THAT long had he knew what he wanted...and he did seem to know for awhile...but then he doubted himself and it just wasnt going to happen.

90 % ?  Think not - "The Elements" alone was 75% unrecorded... "Vega-Tables" was barely begun (the "cornucopia" early version).

Not saying that in January Brian didn't loose focus big time, but I don't think it was due to "GV" being a huge hit so much as the realisation that he couldn't do a whole album that way, i.e. modularly.


Fire - Mrs. O' Leary's Cow

Water - Various Chants and Water Sounds for 1966.

Air - Supposed instrumental attempt (as Brian hints in 1978), OR Smog Rant and Breathing skit.

Earth - Vega-Tanles Cornucopia, Earth Chants, Sleep A Lot, etc.

^Exactly. This, or something in that vein is the most plausible elements, imho. Had Brian not etched the earlier speculations about Dada and WC in stone by doing the third movement in BWPS, there'd be no debate about this. And again, I dont think BWPS should count as evidence.

To be clear, I don't believe the Smile album was initially intended to be modular. A 30 plus minute album with a dozen separate tracks is what was apparently intended. Connected by a theme, yes, but not connected in the sense that one track flows into the next with parts of the same music interwoven. I just don't see it that way, even if that's how BWPS turned out. The reason so many Smile buffs prefer their own mix and  seemingly a majority now favor revisiting Smile as stand alone tracks rather than the 3 part suite that came out 40 years later, I would argue, is because MOST of a 12 track album was there before all of Brian's revisiting and tinkering that started after GV hit number #1. Revisit the session dates in TSS book closely and most of the pieces of music do not appear to be recorded snippets all over the place out of sequence that could all be spliced together later. It seems it turned into fragments and pieces because in '67 Brian started reworking and rethinking so much of it...especially Heroes and Villains. That seems to be where and when a lot of the material to go the modular route comes from.

Hmmm...I dont know about that. Werent the songs often recorded in pieces? Only the first half of Surfs Up, seperate sessions for different parts of Worms, Cabin, etc...the verses and choruses for both were played with back and forth, what would go with what wasnt really set it stone...And there's the Fusion Article which mentions a version of Heroes leading into My Only Sunshine. There seems to be evidence it was always modular, just maybe not as much as GV. You can have an album of modular songs and the occasional comedy skit without it all linking together. I agree BWPS shouldnt be used as evidence for how the original wouldve been, and I agree a 2-sided 12 track album works WAY better than the new 3-suite 17~19 track album that BWPS became. H&V is definitely the most modular due to the endless tinkering in '67, and I agree this is a source of a lot of misinformation, like people thinking both Heroes and Worms would use the same chorus, or that the whole album would be part of Heroes and Villains, etc.

- Mark Linnet hinted "Child" lead vocals were once attempted.

- An I'm In Great Shape vocal session was held.

- Surf's Up Pt. 2 is rumored to be recorded instrumentally.

- Do You Like Worms? lead melody and lyrics were written.

- Fire instrumental was recorded. Water chant and sounds were recorded. Air instrumental was attempted (a piano instrumental as Brian suggested), and Earth was Vega-Tables in 1966.

All these points lead in favour that SMiLE corrupted due to financial and business related problems more than anything else, except maybe for band dynamics itself, which is a whole other area of disscussion.

Indeed. Certainly it lends credence to the idea the album was closer to completion in Nov~Dec than some give it credit for, which in turn means its fair to speculate what it was shaping up to be and all these "there was no plan/Brian had no idea what he was doing" posts arent fair or backed up by the evidence. Im not sure these necesarily means financial problems, tho. And Id like a source for that Mark Linett quote about CIFOTM--not that I dont believe you, but I want to read it. I wonder if hes ever said what they were, at least what he can remember.

Direct quote from Wikipedia article:

According to The Smile Sessions compiler Mark Linett, "When he's not singing, you can hear faint background vocal parts that no longer exist on the multitrack. They must have been in his headphones, and were picked up by the vocal mic. It could be that Brian decided he didn't need them, or that he was going to re-record them, but never did. You hear this sort of stuff throughout the tapes."
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