Good Vibrations Success and Smile's Demise

[Cam Mott]

We will see what you think after finishing the 3 canonical witnesses to the era.  

I would suggest the more balanced view has been there in them all along but has just been ignored in favor of a sort of more one sided view.

Ive read 1.666 of those 3, and soon itll be 2.666 and this is with all the other interviews/articles Ive read as well  

And thats actually what Im basing this on. Both Anderle and Vosse mention feuds with Brian and VDP as well as with the other Beach Boys. It wasnt any one person responsible, it was the collaborators didnt gel as well as he had with Asher and others, the band was very unsupportive, and all the other various issues we all know about. I dont see how much more balanced an overview is possible. To deny that either feuds happened--that is, with Brian/VDP and Mike/VDP--is contradicting these primary accounts.

EDIT: Still hoping someone can show me where to find the second of the three parts of the Anderle interview online

You should get LLVS for that interview. We can talk when you've read more than roughly half of the 3.    

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

We will see what you think after finishing the 3 canonical witnesses to the era.  

I would suggest the more balanced view has been there in them all along but has just been ignored in favor of a sort of more one sided view.

Ive read 1.666 of those 3, and soon itll be 2.666 and this is with all the other interviews/articles Ive read as well  

And thats actually what Im basing this on. Both Anderle and Vosse mention feuds with Brian and VDP as well as with the other Beach Boys. It wasnt any one person responsible, it was the collaborators didnt gel as well as he had with Asher and others, the band was very unsupportive, and all the other various issues we all know about. I dont see how much more balanced an overview is possible. To deny that either feuds happened--that is, with Brian/VDP and Mike/VDP--is contradicting these primary accounts.

EDIT: Still hoping someone can show me where to find the second of the three parts of the Anderle interview online

You should get LLVS for that interview. We can talk when you've read more than roughly half of the 3.    

Im browsing thru GSHG as we speak.

As much as I enjoy reading these and understand how important they are as primary sources and all...I believe this attitude of "your opinion is null until youve read these" is a little over the top. As I said, I didnt actually learn much from Vosse except Brian wanted a slide to his bed and there was supposed to be a pool scene in the Inside Pop piece. Thats not to say Vosse doesnt offer a lot of good info--he does. Its just Id already heard it second hand thru this message board and other websites. And again, unless all the really pertinent SMiLE info was in the second part, I learned nothing whatsoever from Anderle. It was mostly semi-off topic musings on music as a whole, and optimisitc predictions that Brian would go back to melting people's brains with epic music again soon that turned out to be false 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Is there another particularly good interview/article from LLVS or otherwise I should look out for? Even before these recent bouts of SMiLE threads, Id heard of Vosse's Fusion article, Anderle's Crawdaddy interview and Siegel's GSHG piece. But are there any more that are "must read" status? The OCD, overly-dramatic SMiLE nut in me wants there to be 4, like the 4 gospels

[Cam Mott]

We will see what you think after finishing the 3 canonical witnesses to the era.  

I would suggest the more balanced view has been there in them all along but has just been ignored in favor of a sort of more one sided view.

Ive read 1.666 of those 3, and soon itll be 2.666 and this is with all the other interviews/articles Ive read as well  

And thats actually what Im basing this on. Both Anderle and Vosse mention feuds with Brian and VDP as well as with the other Beach Boys. It wasnt any one person responsible, it was the collaborators didnt gel as well as he had with Asher and others, the band was very unsupportive, and all the other various issues we all know about. I dont see how much more balanced an overview is possible. To deny that either feuds happened--that is, with Brian/VDP and Mike/VDP--is contradicting these primary accounts.

EDIT: Still hoping someone can show me where to find the second of the three parts of the Anderle interview online

You should get LLVS for that interview. We can talk when you've read more than roughly half of the 3.    

Im browsing thru GSHG as we speak.

As much as I enjoy reading these and understand how important they are as primary sources and all...I believe this attitude of "your opinion is null until youve read these" is a little over the top. As I said, I didnt actually learn much from Vosse except Brian wanted a slide to his bed and there was supposed to be a pool scene in the Inside Pop piece. Thats not to say Vosse doesnt offer a lot of good info--he does. Its just Id already heard it second hand thru this message board and other websites. And again, unless all the really pertinent SMiLE info was in the second part, I learned nothing whatsoever from Anderle. It was mostly semi-off topic musings on music as a whole, and optimisitc predictions that Brian would go back to melting people's brains with epic music again soon that turned out to be false 

I don't remember anybody saying that and nobody is born knowing this stuff but on the other hand I'm a little surprised that you have gotten so prickly about and dismissive of the opinions of those who have done all of their homework.  Anyways, you may have to have your LLVS mailed to you or something, that Part 2 may not be available online.  The hunt is half of the fun.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

We will see what you think after finishing the 3 canonical witnesses to the era. 

I would suggest the more balanced view has been there in them all along but has just been ignored in favor of a sort of more one sided view.

Ive read 1.666 of those 3, and soon itll be 2.666 and this is with all the other interviews/articles Ive read as well 

And thats actually what Im basing this on. Both Anderle and Vosse mention feuds with Brian and VDP as well as with the other Beach Boys. It wasnt any one person responsible, it was the collaborators didnt gel as well as he had with Asher and others, the band was very unsupportive, and all the other various issues we all know about. I dont see how much more balanced an overview is possible. To deny that either feuds happened--that is, with Brian/VDP and Mike/VDP--is contradicting these primary accounts.

EDIT: Still hoping someone can show me where to find the second of the three parts of the Anderle interview online

You should get LLVS for that interview. We can talk when you've read more than roughly half of the 3.    

Im browsing thru GSHG as we speak.

As much as I enjoy reading these and understand how important they are as primary sources and all...I believe this attitude of "your opinion is null until youve read these" is a little over the top. As I said, I didnt actually learn much from Vosse except Brian wanted a slide to his bed and there was supposed to be a pool scene in the Inside Pop piece. Thats not to say Vosse doesnt offer a lot of good info--he does. Its just Id already heard it second hand thru this message board and other websites. And again, unless all the really pertinent SMiLE info was in the second part, I learned nothing whatsoever from Anderle. It was mostly semi-off topic musings on music as a whole, and optimisitc predictions that Brian would go back to melting people's brains with epic music again soon that turned out to be false 

I don't remember anybody saying that and nobody is born knowing this stuff but on the other hand I'm a little surprised that you have gotten so prickly about and dismissive of the opinions of those who have done all of their homework.  Anyways, you may have to have your LLVS mailed to you or something, that Part 2 may not be available online.  The hunt is half of the fun.

Not that Im even that bothered by it, but isnt that pretty much exactly what you said your previous post?

Anyways, whos prickly? I think Ive been rather civil for the most part. Long winded and adamant, but certainly not dismissive. At least that was never my intent.

I guess it doesnt matter how many OTHER articles youve read, and retellings of 95% of the info in the big three if you havent read these three magic articles themselves? Even if none of what youve theorized about SMiLE contradicts anything that was said in them, and is actually supported by them, as my dissections of Vosse and what Ive read of Anderle show. Hell, even if youve read 2 and most of the 3rd, thats not good enough to be taken seriously. But, no, Im the one being dismissive 

Please tho, lets not get personal. That wasnt what I was trying to do, merely point out that the information within those 3 seems to be pretty well known already. I think anyone who's spent a good amount of time on this board will have heard most of it second hand, which admittedly is not as good, but its still there. Plus, Ive seen some here who claim to have read Vosse and the others then go on to push the idea that Mike and Brian were hunky dory and all Mike did was innocently ask about CE once--a theory which is flatly rejected by Vosse and Anderle. And thats just one example. Basically, just because you havent read those articles specifically doesnt mean you know nothing with so many around who have--or read second hand recounts of the info within--on the board here. And at the same time, just because you HAVE read those articles doesnt mean youre an unquestionable expert who cannot be bothered to address anyone who hasnt read one third of a single article from among dozens if not hundreds out there on SMiLE. Thats the very definition of being dismissive and its ridiculous.

[Andrew G. Doe]

My understanding is that the Sat Evening Post rejected Siegel's article because it was too laudatory of Brian and his music ` it's unclear if they had prejudged this new rock music and wanted a critical piece or if they felt GSHG was too unbalanced in it's praise of Brian. 

From GSHG:

"“As for the Beach Boys,” an editor of The Saturday Evening Post chided his writer, who had filed the world’s longest Western Union telegram of a story, “I want you to understand that as an individual you can feel that Brian Wilson is the greatest musician of our time, and maybe the greatest human being, but as a reporter you have got to maintain your objectivity.”

“They want me to put him down,” the writer complained. “That’s their idea of objectivity—the put-down.”"

[filledeplage]

My understanding is that the Sat Evening Post rejected Siegel's article because it was too laudatory of Brian and his music ` it's unclear if they had prejudged this new rock music and wanted a critical piece or if they felt GSHG was too unbalanced in it's praise of Brian. 

From GSHG:

"“As for the Beach Boys,” an editor of The Saturday Evening Post chided his writer, who had filed the world’s longest Western Union telegram of a story, “I want you to understand that as an individual you can feel that Brian Wilson is the greatest musician of our time, and maybe the greatest human being, but as a reporter you have got to maintain your objectivity.”

“They want me to put him down,” the writer complained. “That’s their idea of objectivity—the put-down.”"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Saturday-Evening-Post-August-12-1967-/1617372008?hash=item25ab846ae8:g:hZ4AAOSwd0BBVympFgt#

Hope it copies. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Nothing there but an item removed message. As the article never appeared in the mag, not sure what the point is.

[filledeplage]

Nothing there but an item removed message. As the article never appeared in the mag, not sure what the point is.

Andrew - there were several copies available from various sellers at the time of the link.  Front page is a cover page spread published on August 12, 1967, on "The Newly Discovered Dangers of LSD; To The Mind, To The Body, To The Unborn."  I am looking at a photo of the front page as well as some random pages contained within.

They had an "editorial opinion" that was arrived upon and that article was likely never being published.  It was unclear to me in the vague text in both articles that "a friend was writing an article for The Saturday Evening Post," as to whether this was one of their staff at Saturday Evening Post, or whether he was more in the freelance category. The point is that it was highly unlikely it would be published given the "position" on page one of that article that did appear within 5 weeks of the release of Smiley.  

"Another of Anderle's friends was writing the story for The Saturday Evening Post and a film crew from CBS TV was up at the house for a documentary to be narrated by Leonard Bernstein."  (from Rolling Stone)

It appeared that it was a "fait accompli" and it was not.  He was writing it "for submission" or for "approval" prior to its acceptance and ultimate publication.  

[Paul J B]

EDIT: The frustrating thing about SMiLE, aside from knowing there are awesome pieces of music we'll never hear, is the pendulum of public opinion. It used to be Brian and VDP were buddy-buddy geniuses and big bad Mike ruined everything. Now, it seems like most are taking a sympathetic view to Mike, saying he only wanted to ask an innocent question once and thats it. And VDP's lyrics arent very good and he and Brian never liked each other. The truth is in the middle. Mike was aggressively antagonistic but in no way killed SMiLE. Brian and VDP respected each other but didnt work well together because of clashing egos. VDP's lyric style was very commendable and IMO suited the music very well, but its also understandable Brian would have second thoughts with the massive success of GV which used the simpler Mike Love approach. He obviously still liked at least some of VDP's work and his approach, because he knew since at least '66 that he needed a more mature lyrical approach and he did use at least some of VDP's lyrics in Smiley.

I pretty much agree with this. Many times Brian has said that the music was not appropriate or some such comment. We tend to over think things.....take that at face value and ask appropriate for who....maybe, and I strongly believe this to be true now, it was BRIAN himself that felt it not appropriate for many reasons, the least of which that he and Parks were not two peas in a pod, even if they crafted a great piece such as Surf's Up. No way in hell was it the Label or Mike that caused Brian to let months of great hard work fizzle out.

[Micha]

The worst lyrics on the album are Wind Chimes,

Personally think DYLW is the worst lyrics, but I agree with you that they should have kept the cornucopia verse, my favorite VDP lyric along with the verses to Cabin Essence.

With all this fighting about the lyrics going on back then, I think whether the album would have been a success or not was more or less all down to the music, not the lyrics. As somebody pointed out many moons ago, in non-English language countries at the time the lyrics to, say, Sloop John B. (#1 in Germany) were just as obscure to the general public as the lyrics to Heroes & Villains (#34) or Do It Again (#4).

[filledeplage]

The worst lyrics on the album are Wind Chimes,

Personally think DYLW is the worst lyrics, but I agree with you that they should have kept the cornucopia verse, my favorite VDP lyric along with the verses to Cabin Essence.

With all this fighting about the lyrics going on back then, I think whether the album would have been a success or not was more or less all down to the music, not the lyrics. As somebody pointed out many moons ago, in non-English language countries at the time the lyrics to, say, Sloop John B. (#1 in Germany) were just as obscure to the general public as the lyrics to Heroes & Villains (#34) or Do It Again (#4).

Mujan - Wind Chimes is one of my favorites, going back to old Smiley.  Oneiric (dreamlike) and any time I have ever seen wind chimes anywhere, I hear that "Hanging down from my window, those are my wind chimes..."  

PaulJB - lyrics did and do matter, as it got to the people in a way they could digest it.  I think of it as a steak ( guess Brian likes steak!)  You can't digest it whole; you have to cut it up.  And that is where the lyrics come in.  It makes the music "digestible."  

At best the whole project it is like when a doctor makes an "educated guess" for a diagnosis, as to what the actual product might have been.  Does anyone know? Maybe not even Brian.  It reminds me of one of those unfinished symphonies in fragments. Brian is in good company; Beethoven, Bizet, Borodin, Bruckner, Schubert, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky...and that is an incomplete list. Maybe that is why Brian was chosen to help envision, working on a Gershwin "fragment."  JMHO  

It can be fun and interesting to speculate...
      
It is still vague and "out there" notwithstanding those who claim expertise.  

The best and credible sources, for me, are those who are "primary" sources; The Beach Boys themselves, not anyone else.  I want to hear what Brian, Dennis, Carl, Al, Mike and Bruce have to say about their sessions.  (And, Dennis and Carl from whatever interviews are still available.) I like those best from the late 1960's and 70's where the band was "closer in time" to how things went down.  

Everyone else is a "secondary" source.  

And I like this series of connected to this interview.  Hope it copies.  

http://youtu.be/h3J7YT9oiHY

  

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

The worst lyrics on the album are Wind Chimes,

Personally think DYLW is the worst lyrics, but I agree with you that they should have kept the cornucopia verse, my favorite VDP lyric along with the verses to Cabin Essence.

With all this fighting about the lyrics going on back then, I think whether the album would have been a success or not was more or less all down to the music, not the lyrics. As somebody pointed out many moons ago, in non-English language countries at the time the lyrics to, say, Sloop John B. (#1 in Germany) were just as obscure to the general public as the lyrics to Heroes & Villains (#34) or Do It Again (#4).

They speak english in germany. Unless your point is the folk song SJB is based on, the idea of cowboys, etc would be foreign to them.

When I say worst in terms of WC I mean simplest. Theres no wordplay or deeper meaning to them like all the rest, theyre very straightforward and simply worded. Thats not necessarily a bad thing, but compared to something like, as you say, the verses to CE, they stand out.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

They speak english in german. Unless your point is the folk song SJB is based on, the idea of cowboys, etc would be foreign to them.

Wasn't there the thought for a while though that German audiences wouldn't be receptive to non-German lyrics in songs - hence the German I Want To Hold Your Hand, She Loves You, In My Room, etc.?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

They speak english in german. Unless your point is the folk song SJB is based on, the idea of cowboys, etc would be foreign to them.

Wasn't there the thought for a while though that German audiences wouldn't be receptive to non-German lyrics in songs - hence the German I Want To Hold Your Hand, She Loves You, In My Room, etc.?

I wasnt aware, but thats interesting

[The_Holy_Bee]

The second part of the Crawdaddy! Anderle-Williams interviews has by a large degree the greatest amount of SMiLE-specific discussion. All issues can be found in an online archive somewhere, or at least they used to be - I no longer have the link, and probably shouldn't post it here in any case.

I agree with Mujan that:

It used to be Brian and VDP were buddy-buddy geniuses and big bad Mike ruined everything. Now, it seems like most are taking a sympathetic view to Mike, saying he only wanted to ask an innocent question once and thats it. And VDP's lyrics arent very good and he and Brian never liked each other. The truth is in the middle.

Except, weirdly, I think it's possible to agree with both at once. Not sure a middle ground is strictly necessary. There was a lot going on at the time, in the country and the world as well as 'BB-land', of course - as FdP comprehensively points out - but the record (yes, particularly 'those 3 magical articles') strongly suggests both Mike/The Boys' disapproval and the faltering relationship between Brian and Van Dyke played crucial roles in the collapse of the original conception. To swing closer back to the original topic of this thread, the success of GV - the production method and the provenance of the lyrics - might have been another, contributing factor.

But the fundamental issue, it seems to me, remains - to quote myself from above:

Brian starts to meet resistance. From the band, from the label. Usually - as in PS - he'd struggle through. But some of what they have to say strikes an internal chord. The lyrics he's commissioned are not, like Tony Asher's eight months before, erudite expansions on his own feelings. They're a whole other thing.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

The second part of the Crawdaddy! Anderle-Williams interviews has by a large degree the greatest amount of SMiLE-specific discussion. All issues can be found in an online archive somewhere, or at least they used to be - I no longer have the link, and probably shouldn't post it here in any case.

I agree with Mujan that:

It used to be Brian and VDP were buddy-buddy geniuses and big bad Mike ruined everything. Now, it seems like most are taking a sympathetic view to Mike, saying he only wanted to ask an innocent question once and thats it. And VDP's lyrics arent very good and he and Brian never liked each other. The truth is in the middle.

Except, weirdly, I think it's possible to agree with both at once. Not sure a middle ground is strictly necessary. There was a lot going on at the time, in the country and the world as well as 'BB-land', of course - as FdP comprehensively points out - but the record (yes, particularly 'those 3 magical articles') strongly suggests both Mike/The Boys' disapproval and the faltering relationship between Brian and Van Dyke played crucial roles in the collapse of the original conception. To swing closer back to the original topic of this thread, the success of GV - the production method and the provenance of the lyrics - might have been another, contributing factor.

But the fundamental issue, it seems to me, remains - to quote myself from above:

Brian starts to meet resistance. From the band, from the label. Usually - as in PS - he'd struggle through. But some of what they have to say strikes an internal chord. The lyrics he's commissioned are not, like Tony Asher's eight months before, erudite expansions on his own feelings. They're a whole other thing.

Incidentally I did end up finding the second part last night and made a post about it in another thread. Once again, aside from a few points where he diverges from the popular narrative, I didn't learn too much I hadn't already. That's not to discourage anyone else from reading it or trashing Anderle as a source. I'm just annoyed at this "you have to read those specific articles to be taken seriously" attitude. I think the main points from them have leaked thru into later articles and this board to the point that most people are familiar already. Of course, it's nice to get it straight from the source undiluted too.

[Cam Mott]

To Holy Bee: The Boys publicly praised Brian and the SMiLE music at the time. Brian did say he nearly/did split up the band over his decision to scrap SMiLE songs because he didn't have a commercial feeling about them.

It's nice to see a calm discussion of this, this interpretation used to generate a lot of heat and earn you a lot of guff.

[The_Holy_Bee]

It's nice to see a calm discussion of this, this interpretation used to generate a lot of heat and earn you a lot of guff.

Agreed, Cam. I've been around (lurking, mainly) since the Smile Shop Board days, and it's nice to see the debate (as it often is) has taken a decisive turn in this direction.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

To Holy Bee: The Boys publicly praised Brian and the SMiLE music at the time. Brian did say he nearly/did split up the band over his decision to scrap SMiLE songs because he didn't have a commercial feeling about them.

It's nice to see a calm discussion of this, this interpretation used to generate a lot of heat and earn you a lot of guff.

And yet, all of the big three articles you claim as the most reliable, must read sources go out of their way to hammer in the fact that the boys were very unsupportive and there was a lot of fighting. Anderle says that had they been supportive, the album would've been finished. GSHG has Brian accusing Mike of making too much money for what he does. You can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss people for not reading those and then refute one of the main ideas they all agree on. I'm not, nor have I ever, stated Brian and VDP didn't fight either--which they also mention. But anyone deny the BBs were abrasive and that this abrasiveness played a part (however small or significant) in the project coming apart is being ignorant, and if they've read these all important articles, willfully so.

Anderle mentions Brian discussing breaking up the group and releasing it anyway, but commercial worries WERE NOT a factor in his decision not to. According to Anderle, it was because they were a family that stayed his hand.

[Cam Mott]

To Holy Bee: The Boys publicly praised Brian and the SMiLE music at the time. Brian did say he nearly/did split up the band over his decision to scrap SMiLE songs because he didn't have a commercial feeling about them.

It's nice to see a calm discussion of this, this interpretation used to generate a lot of heat and earn you a lot of guff.

And yet, all of the big three articles you claim as the most reliable, must read sources go out of their way to hammer in the fact that the boys were very unsupportive and there was a lot of fighting. Anderle says that had they been supportive, the album would've been finished. GSHG has Brian accusing Mike of making too much money for what he does. You can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss people for not reading those and then refute one of the main ideas they all agree on. I'm not, nor have I ever, stated Brian and VDP didn't fight either--which they also mention. But anyone deny the BBs were abrasive and that this abrasiveness played a part (however small or significant) in the project coming apart is being ignorant, and if they've read these all important articles, willfully so.

Anderle mentions Brian discussing breaking up the group and releasing it anyway, but commercial worries WERE NOT a factor in his decision not to. According to Anderle, it was because they were a family that stayed his hand.

I guess I would explain it as they are the big three, not the only. They were with the band, not in the band.  Anderle also says the Boys were working hard and singing beautifully take after take and that the most antagonistic relationship was not even antagonistic but a lot of mutual love.

Didn't Anderle say he proposed Brian leaving the band and Brian wasn't having it?  Something like that. In 1967/68 Brian himself directly contradicted "commercial worries WERE NOT a factor" by saying his commercial worries were his reason for scrapping SMiLE and almost splitting up the band over it.  

[GhostyTMRS]

The way I see the collapse of SMiLE (based on everything I've read) is that it was a combination of factors. Brian's psychological issues were tough enough for him to deal with but they were worsened by his drug abuse. In some ways, it's the same old rock-n-roll story: a creative leading light takes drugs to expand his mind and it works at first but eventually they only leave him confused. I think if he had stayed focused and sober we could've got something, but it was always going to be a tough road because of who these guys were.

I know that the group having doubts about the material or being abrasive is often keyed on as the main culprit in all of his. Frankly, I'm amazed The Beach Boys were able to get ANYTHING done right from the very beginning of their career. Session tapes reveal it was nearly impossible for Brian or anyone else to corral them. They sound like a bunch of rowdy teenagers...well, I guess they were, right? There's constant bickering, talking on top of each other, second-guessing each other, etc. I know if it were me, I would've had a nervous breakdown. I'm no fan of chaos.  It's like listening to a cacophony of voices that are never in sync, and as much as Brian is supposed to be in charge, he joins in as well, making him just as guilty. Sometimes listening to these sessions can be eye-opening fun but a little annoying (and The Beach Boys were never noted for their great wit, which is why listening to The Beatles engage in the same tomfoolery is more entertaining because at least they're funny). The main thing is, they DID the work and that includes SMiLE too, no matter if Mike or Carl questiond this or that...they sang the heck out of it.

I'm surprised that someone..anyone..either within the group or at Capitol didn't just sit the guys down and say "We need a record. Play me what's close to finished and we'll put that out next week". I know that sounds insensitive, but a LOT of money had spent. If there had been a record with just SMiLE versions of  "Heroes and Villains" "Wonderful", "Wind Chimes", Cabin-Essence" and "Surf's Up". Well, hell...that's a perfect album side right there! Who even cares what would've been on side 2? It would've been better than releasing bits and pieces over the years to bolster other albums.  

[GhostyTMRS]

Also, as we've heard in the sessions with the studio musicians, it's a completely different story. THAT'S what a session should sound like. Easy-going and getting a lot accomplished. It's no wonder that Brian had his eye on working outside of the group from the get-go.  
I'm reminded of the Help Me Rhonda session where a drunken Murry takes the guys to task. Brian says "we would like to record in an atmosphere of calmness". I'm thinking "Gee, you could probably count on one hand the times that's happened."
So the attitudes and reactions of the rest of the guys seem just par for the course when it comes to SMiLE. I don't see it like some sharp left turn and then suddenly they were hard to deal with, and I don't begrudge any of them for it either. They were what...early to mid-20's at best? Expensive cars, disposable income, women throwing themselves at them, etc. Who wouldn't have behaved like spoiled brats who never had to grow up?  

And as a strange aside, it's odd how we as fans, or anyone interested in the subject, look back on this era and sort of envision the Beach Boys as being older and more mature than they actually were. It's like when you look back at a high school yearbook from the 1950's and everyone who's 17 looks like they're pushing 30. I think people do that with The Beach Boys (and other entertainers from the past), expecting more out of their past selves than you would a 22 year old pop star today.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

To Holy Bee: The Boys publicly praised Brian and the SMiLE music at the time. Brian did say he nearly/did split up the band over his decision to scrap SMiLE songs because he didn't have a commercial feeling about them.

It's nice to see a calm discussion of this, this interpretation used to generate a lot of heat and earn you a lot of guff.

And yet, all of the big three articles you claim as the most reliable, must read sources go out of their way to hammer in the fact that the boys were very unsupportive and there was a lot of fighting. Anderle says that had they been supportive, the album would've been finished. GSHG has Brian accusing Mike of making too much money for what he does. You can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss people for not reading those and then refute one of the main ideas they all agree on. I'm not, nor have I ever, stated Brian and VDP didn't fight either--which they also mention. But anyone deny the BBs were abrasive and that this abrasiveness played a part (however small or significant) in the project coming apart is being ignorant, and if they've read these all important articles, willfully so.

Anderle mentions Brian discussing breaking up the group and releasing it anyway, but commercial worries WERE NOT a factor in his decision not to. According to Anderle, it was because they were a family that stayed his hand.

I guess I would explain it as they are the big three, not the only. They were with the band, not in the band.  Anderle also says the Boys were working hard and singing beautifully take after take and that the most antagonistic relationship was not even antagonistic but a lot of mutual love.

Didn't Anderle say he proposed Brian leaving the band and Brian wasn't having it?  Something like that. In 1967/68 Brian himself directly contradicted "commercial worries WERE NOT a factor" by saying his commercial worries were his reason for scrapping SMiLE and almost splitting up the band over it.  

Right, which is exactly my point. Theyre pretty in depth articles from people who were there and dont have a reason to be biased (unlike say, Brian VDP and Mike). I understand why theyre so regarded, I just think its elitist to insist everyone read them in order to be respected when talking about SMiLE.

He does. Still, gotta take into account the rest of what he said tho. He doesnt blame the guys for acting the way they did, and neither does Vosse, but they do flatly state there was a lot of bickering and that tension negatively impacted the work. Anderle mentions how if someone hurt Brian's feelings he'd be unproductive for days at a time.

The way he describes it in the article, Brian himself openly mused about letting the band break up and saving the album, but ultimately decided not to mostly because they were a family. He even speculates that Brian must be regretting that decision considering the drop in fidelity, sales and accolades Smiley and WH got in comparison to Pet Sounds and GV.

Can you provide a source for that Brian quote? I genuinely am not asking to be antagonistic but Id like to read it. If its in LLVS, even just the page number or article title would be fine.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

The way I see the collapse of SMiLE (based on everything I've read) is that it was a combination of factors. Brian's psychological issues were tough enough for him to deal with but they were worsened by his drug abuse. In some ways, it's the same old rock-n-roll story: a creative leading light takes drugs to expand his mind and it works at first but eventually they only leave him confused. I think if he had stayed focused and sober we could've got something, but it was always going to be a tough road because of who these guys were.

I guess if there is a possible bias for Vosse/Anderle and Siegel it would be to downplay Brian's drug use. It makes sense they wouldnt go into that, and Im factoring that into this reply. All the same, I used to buy into that but now I think its at least slightly overblown as well. This idea of a big dramatic drug induced breakout. I think that was happening too, but in a less dramatic way, and yet the primary causes were...a million other things. Since we're focusing on the big 3 articles lately, Ill stick with them. And they all point to 3 or so big causes: VDP quitting, tension from the band and the whole legal limbo with Capitol. I think trying to do too much at once was also an issue, with Brother and going into films, etc. Anderle lists these as distractions even, because Brian was putting off doing anything on the album after VDP left. Im sure drugs and neurosis had their own part to play too. Brian just comes off as a very sensitive, eccentric guy especially in these articles. Anderle talks about how the vibes werent good with so much negativity around, and it was extremely hard to get Brian productive. I think the real key to the demise, is the Elements, and Ive said as much the past 2 years now. He hit a road block with that track, not knowing what to do with the other parts, fear of fire, and not knowing what to do without VDP.

I know that the group having doubts about the material or being abrasive is often keyed on as the main culprit in all of his. Frankly, I'm amazed The Beach Boys were able to get ANYTHING done right from the very beginning of their career. Session tapes reveal it was nearly impossible for Brian or anyone else to corral them. They sound like a bunch of rowdy teenagers...well, I guess they were, right? There's constant bickering, talking on top of each other, second-guessing each other, etc. I know if it were me, I would've had a nervous breakdown. I'm no fan of chaos.  It's like listening to a cacophony of voices that are never in sync, and as much as Brian is supposed to be in charge, he joins in as well, making him just as guilty. Sometimes listening to these sessions can be eye-opening fun but a little annoying (and The Beach Boys were never noted for their great wit, which is why listening to The Beatles engage in the same tomfoolery is more entertaining because at least they're funny). The main thing is, they DID the work and that includes SMiLE too, no matter if Mike or Carl questiond this or that...they sang the heck out of it.

I wasnt aware of that with their early sessions. Very eye opening. Yes, they sang the heck out of it. But again, Anderle mentions specifically how Mike sang one song but it wasnt quite how Brian wanted it...and they literally wasted the better part of a week rerecording that same song again and again until Brian decided to just do it himself. Its not a case of big bad Mike ruining everything so much as they were on such different wavelengths and Brian was such a perfectionist that they just couldnt communicate anymore. That and, I do believe Mike was jealous about being passed over yet again as lyricist. Anyway, I think the problem was with Brian as well as Mike; he was treating them like instruments rather than real people and it finally got to be too much.

I'm surprised that someone..anyone..either within the group or at Capitol didn't just sit the guys down and say "We need a record. Play me what's close to finished and we'll put that out next week". I know that sounds insensitive, but a LOT of money had spent. If there had been a record with just SMiLE versions of  "Heroes and Villains" "Wonderful", "Wind Chimes", Cabin-Essence" and "Surf's Up". Well, hell...that's a perfect album side right there! Who even cares what would've been on side 2? It would've been better than releasing bits and pieces over the years to bolster other albums.  

The clear implication from Vosse and Anderle is that Brian will do what he wants to do. You cant make him do the album if hes not feeling it. Which, actually, is why I think the Smiley aesthetic was his idea. That and the crucial "dont think youre god, just be a cool guy" lyric in Wonderful. Plus, with the legal wrangling going on, Capitol probably wasnt in much of a position to order him around. Again, according to Anderle, he went to all the legal meetings for Brian. I get the idea Brian wouldve just blown Capitol off. The Beach Boys bossing him around wouldve just caused more strife. I agree that an album of what was done by, say, April wouldve been preferable to Smiley and then leaking the rest out piece by piece over the years. Wouldve been better for their careers and the musical world. He had enough material to release a kickass record at that point. Maybe not the exact one he imagined, but still. And the unfinished songs are mostly unfinished because of lyrics. Those couldve been done in a week if Brian either lowered his standards just a bit or did them himself. BUT thats the key, I think. He realized his expectations were too high and he was doing everything himself. I really think thats why we got Smiley; he decided it was more important to do a laid back fun album as a group than this pretentious (not that I think that, but y'know) symphony to God that he essentially made all by himself.