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Author Topic: Brian and Murry not crediting each other properly  (Read 7505 times)
CenturyDeprived
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« on: November 10, 2015, 07:40:39 PM »

Anyone have any thoughts as to why the Reggie Dunbar credit happened? As well, on Murry's solo album, there were uncredited Brian contributions too.

I'd venture to guess it was because Murry had become infamous (both internally between industry folk at sessions like Help Me Rhonda, as well as externally by songs like I'm Bugged at My Old Man), and Brian didn't want to advertise his collaboration necessarily... and because Murry wanted to prove he could do things without his son's help. Any other theories?
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 07:07:13 AM »

My understanding is that Murry chose the Reggie Dunbar pseudonym himself. Which raises an interesting point - despite his well-known megalomania and utter control-freak persona, Murry seems to have been rather coy about getting credit for his actual contributions to the BB's music: in addition to the "Breakaway" example, I'm thinking of how Murry fought to get producer credit for Brian starting with the third album, yet he himself continued to "serve" as Brian's uncredited co-producer for many sessions to come. Apparently he wasn't as interested in making that fact well-known as he was in steering the BBs career as he saw fit.

What exactly were Brian's uncredited contributions to The Many Moods of Murry, and what is the source for that info?
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2015, 07:41:47 AM »

Brian produced Al's tune Italia .
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2015, 08:43:00 AM »

I thought it was Sergio Franchi, the popular ,MOR 1960's opera singer who produced Italia.
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2015, 12:09:23 PM »

My understanding is that Murry chose the Reggie Dunbar pseudonym himself. Which raises an interesting point - despite his well-known megalomania and utter control-freak persona, Murry seems to have been rather coy about getting credit for his actual contributions to the BB's music: in addition to the "Breakaway" example, I'm thinking of how Murry fought to get producer credit for Brian starting with the third album, yet he himself continued to "serve" as Brian's uncredited co-producer for many sessions to come. Apparently he wasn't as interested in making that fact well-known as he was in steering the BBs career as he saw fit.

What exactly were Brian's uncredited contributions to The Many Moods of Murry, and what is the source for that info?

I have to ask for a clarification on this, especially the line in bold. Where is proof of this fact that Murry was Brian's co-producer on these many sessions? Down the line of those involved, from Britz to Venet and others who were involved, the consensus was that Brian was clearly running the show as far as actually making the records and making the decisions of what to sing and play along with other studio decisions. In other words, he was producing the Beach Boys' sessions. Murry on the other hand would waste more of the time giving his pep talks, spouting various orders to Chuck Britz that had no musical or production merit, randomly turning knobs and trying to "mix" these records the way he thought they should sound after Brian already arranged and wrote the songs and got them on tape...and that led to the studio legend that someone finally rigged up a fake console so Murry could twiddle away and turn all the knobs and throw all the switches he wanted just to keep him out of the way of the actual work.

Important to note, and he can say it better obviously, Stephen Desper said when Murry dropped in on sessions when he was recording the band in the late 60's, Murry would act the same way, barking orders like "Surge!" as the mix and session was happening. It added nothing to the process other than being the same distraction it was on the earlier dates with Chuck Britz.

I guess it comes down to not quite getting just yet the claim of how much Murry "co produced" with Brian, and that's why I'm asking for a clarification.

Also, we can pretty closely date the timeline of when Murry was out as the band's hands-on manager, the breaking point was at an I Get Around session which would have been late in '63. But even on the sessions leading up to that point, again on the word of people like Chuck Britz and Nik Venet (who was Capitol's assigned A&R person on the earliest dates), it was clear that Brian had the ideas and was the one who was leading the sessions and calling the shots, and early on getting a lot of hands-on experience and learning from Chuck Britz as far as mixing and other studio techniques. If anything Murry was a distraction and as that soon became clear to the pros who were there, they simply tuned him out or would find ways to work around him as he did his thing, and the real ideas and drive was coming from Brian all along.

Did Murry have input in the music? Yes. But to credit co-producer status to him when those involved in making those records Brian was writing and producing pretty much say across the board he was more of a distraction and a pain in the ass than an actual help to the sessions...it doesn't seem to ring true.

And all of these many sessions to follow where Murry went uncredited apparently, where is Murry on the tapes? If anyone is in charge and calling the shots, it's Brian, and for anyone else involved in making the decisions besides that it was Brian working together with Chuck Britz as producers and engineers do.

The fact that Murry's presence in the studio could have generated a necessity to make a fake console so he'd stay out of the way of the actual record-making process says as much about his role in the studio as producer as perhaps any other studio legend. Brian knew how to create and cut a record and how to bring it to life, and working alongside pros like Chuck Britz engineering they made hit after hit. Murry didn't have that skill, as a writer or as a producer, which is why Brian rightfully gets the credit.
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2015, 12:29:22 PM »

Another perspective on Murry in the studio from Hal Blaine, excerpt from and credit to the original author and interviewer at this link: http://www.steve-escobar.com/?p=13

Excerpt:
SE:   So when you started doing sessions for the Beach Boys, how long did it take before you knew that there was something a lot more here to these guys?

HB:   When we first went in to work with Brian . . . And Brian was a sweetheart, and, of course, his father, was unfortunately an asshole.  In the beginning it was very infantile.  I had already begun working with the Lettermen, the Hi-Loís, the Four Freshmen, you know, these people who sang so beautifully. And to me, we didnít hear guys that sang that falsetto like Brian would be singing.  If Brian wanted to record a song, and we would hear Brian singing way up here, weíd just look at each other and say, what the hell is this? We had no idea that what we were doing (laughs) would thirty years later become unbelievable!  Of course, through the years, I was Brianís drummer and went through the whole thing with him.  The drugs, the divorce, and everything the poor guy went through.  And then all of a sudden he finally started to come out of it, thank goodness.

SE:   So I guess you had to deal with Murray, huh?

HB:   Well, for a little while, then we was thrown out.

SE:   Was he a pain in the ass to the other musicians also?

HB:   Not necessarily to us.  He didnít have a lot to say to us.  He respected what we were doing, but he didnít like what Brian was doing.  He didnít want things to be done the way Brian did things.  Murray had one record that he wrote one time that Lawrence Welk recorded. and   Thatís the way Murray thought everyone should be recording Ė the way Lawrence Welk recorded. And thatís the way he thought everyone should be recording, the way Lawrence Welk recorded. I never got to tell Murray, but I did albums with Lawrence Welk, and it wasnít like what Murray was talking about at all.  Lawrence wanted to be part of the whole rock íní roll thing, too.  Youíve got to remember that all of this music was brand new, and Murray was used to the í30ís, the í40ís, and all of a sudden, twenty or thirty years later he still wants to  do music that way, and it just wasnít done that way anymore!  But Brian couldnít convince him of that, and they were always fighting.  We would just sit there while they argued.

SE:   (laughs)

HB:  And finally, Brian got rid of his Dad.  And thatís it.

SE:   Iíve got that long tape of recording in the studio with the guys and he  sounded drunk.

HB:   He was always drunk.  I could always smell liquor on his breath.  A lot of people said he really didnít drink.  Well, it never happened that  way when I was there. Then, when he was thrown out (so to speak), he went out and hired another group and we started doing records with this group, The Sunrays.  They had, I donít know, part of a hit record or two, but they did records just like Brian!  I mean, Murray was producing the way that Brian would be producing.  It was so silly.



The way Hal described Murry is enlightening in several ways. The part about Murry wanting to make records like Lawrence Welk really stands out and helps define what was happening (and I can imagine Murry lecturing and hectoring Brian on this point, using terms like 'make clean, honest records like Welk does, Brian...'). Murry thought producing records like Welk was the way to do it, and it was antiquated especially for the target audiences this music was being aimed at. All the time Murry wanted Brian to make Beach Boys records like Welk, those people actually producing Welk's records wanted to make records like *Brian* was producing for the Beach Boys, to appeal to the younger audiences who would buy them and who would hear them on the radio. And Murry just did not get that point at all, but what is fortunate is that Brian actually made those hit records which defined the band as he wanted to make them...keep in mind the "Help Me Rhonda" session where Brian asks Murry "so you want the 409 sound on Help Me Rhonda?", as well as the fact that when Murry got shown the door by the BB's and actually did produce another band, he made a Sunrays record that sounded like Brian Wilson produced it, as Hal also said.

Murry was manager until he got removed from that, he still ran the publishing and business/financial affairs around Sea Of Tunes, he may have given advice when asked, but Brian Wilson produced those records.


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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 12:34:00 PM »

My understanding is that Murry chose the Reggie Dunbar pseudonym himself. Which raises an interesting point - despite his well-known megalomania and utter control-freak persona, Murry seems to have been rather coy about getting credit for his actual contributions to the BB's music: in addition to the "Breakaway" example, I'm thinking of how Murry fought to get producer credit for Brian starting with the third album, yet he himself continued to "serve" as Brian's uncredited co-producer for many sessions to come. Apparently he wasn't as interested in making that fact well-known as he was in steering the BBs career as he saw fit.

What exactly were Brian's uncredited contributions to The Many Moods of Murry, and what is the source for that info?

I have to ask for a clarification on this, especially the line in bold. Where is proof of this fact that Murry was Brian's co-producer on these many sessions? Down the line of those involved, from Britz to Venet and others who were involved, the consensus was that Brian was clearly running the show as far as actually making the records and making the decisions of what to sing and play along with other studio decisions. In other words, he was producing the Beach Boys' sessions. Murry on the other hand would waste more of the time giving his pep talks, spouting various orders to Chuck Britz that had no musical or production merit, randomly turning knobs and trying to "mix" these records the way he thought they should sound after Brian already arranged and wrote the songs and got them on tape...and that led to the studio legend that someone finally rigged up a fake console so Murry could twiddle away and turn all the knobs and throw all the switches he wanted just to keep him out of the way of the actual work.

Important to note, and he can say it better obviously, Stephen Desper said when Murry dropped in on sessions when he was recording the band in the late 60's, Murry would act the same way, barking orders like "Surge!" as the mix and session was happening. It added nothing to the process other than being the same distraction it was on the earlier dates with Chuck Britz.

I guess it comes down to not quite getting just yet the claim of how much Murry "co produced" with Brian, and that's why I'm asking for a clarification.

Also, we can pretty closely date the timeline of when Murry was out as the band's hands-on manager, the breaking point was at an I Get Around session which would have been late in '63. But even on the sessions leading up to that point, again on the word of people like Chuck Britz and Nik Venet (who was Capitol's assigned A&R person on the earliest dates), it was clear that Brian had the ideas and was the one who was leading the sessions and calling the shots, and early on getting a lot of hands-on experience and learning from Chuck Britz as far as mixing and other studio techniques. If anything Murry was a distraction and as that soon became clear to the pros who were there, they simply tuned him out or would find ways to work around him as he did his thing, and the real ideas and drive was coming from Brian all along.

Did Murry have input in the music? Yes. But to credit co-producer status to him when those involved in making those records Brian was writing and producing pretty much say across the board he was more of a distraction and a pain in the ass than an actual help to the sessions...it doesn't seem to ring true.

And all of these many sessions to follow where Murry went uncredited apparently, where is Murry on the tapes? If anyone is in charge and calling the shots, it's Brian, and for anyone else involved in making the decisions besides that it was Brian working together with Chuck Britz as producers and engineers do.

The fact that Murry's presence in the studio could have generated a necessity to make a fake console so he'd stay out of the way of the actual record-making process says as much about his role in the studio as producer as perhaps any other studio legend. Brian knew how to create and cut a record and how to bring it to life, and working alongside pros like Chuck Britz engineering they made hit after hit. Murry didn't have that skill, as a writer or as a producer, which is why Brian rightfully gets the credit.

That's what I meant when I put quotation marks around "serving" - I should have also put them around "co-producer". But whether welcome or not, Murry was very involved in the making of most of the band's records from 1963-mid '64 (excluding the ones Venet was involved with). Just listen to all the sessions on the various SOT discs that cover that era: Murry is definitely "producing" the band by telling them what to do from behind the glass while they do it out in the room. Was he a natural "musical" producer like Brian, or someone with the technical skills of Chuck? No. Was he a natural "boss" that stopped and started takes 'til the band delivered what he wanted them to? Yes. With that in mind, I find it somewhat surprising that he didn't insist on a co-producer credit for himself.
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 12:42:21 PM »


Important to note, and he can say it better obviously, Stephen Desper said when Murry dropped in on sessions when he was recording the band in the late 60's, Murry would act the same way, barking orders like "Surge!" as the mix and session was happening. It added nothing to the process other than being the same distraction it was on the earlier dates with Chuck Britz.
 

I wonder if Murry was at the Help Me, Ronda (Today version) session, because the whole back-and-forth surging volume in the outro is very odd, and I don't think it works quite properly. Almost seems like an idea that would have been Murry's during mixing, but perhaps not.
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 12:47:31 PM »


That's what I meant when I put quotation marks around "serving" - I should have also put them around "co-producer". But whether welcome or not, Murry was very involved in the making of most of the band's records from 1963-mid '64 (excluding the ones Venet was involved with). Just listen to all the sessions on the various SOT discs that cover that era: Murry is definitely "producing" the band by telling them what to do from behind the glass while they do it out in the room. Was he a natural "musical" producer like Brian, or someone with the technical skills of Chuck? No. Was he a natural "boss" that stopped and started takes 'til the band delivered what he wanted them to? Yes. With that in mind, I find it somewhat surprising that he didn't insist on a co-producer credit for himself.

It is odd. Perhaps with Murry already making money from Sea of Tunes, he wanted to drill the idea into Brian of intentionally not letting others who add occasional input get credit. Especially after the Nik Venet issue, where Nik's contributions appear to have been overstated in terms of how he was credited. If it was indeed Murry's brainchild to deprive Mike of credits for Mike's contributions, at least it seems that for whatever reason, Murry was consistent about depriving contributors of credits when feasible, including for Murry's own credits himself.
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 01:03:29 PM »


Important to note, and he can say it better obviously, Stephen Desper said when Murry dropped in on sessions when he was recording the band in the late 60's, Murry would act the same way, barking orders like "Surge!" as the mix and session was happening. It added nothing to the process other than being the same distraction it was on the earlier dates with Chuck Britz.
 

I wonder if Murry was at the Help Me, Ronda (Today version) session, because the whole back-and-forth surging volume in the outro is very odd, and I don't think it works quite properly. Almost seems like an idea that would have been Murry's during mixing, but perhaps not.

To me, that fade-out, fade-in idea could only have come from the genius mind of Brian Wilson. I've always really dug it! But then, I'm in the very small minority who actually prefer that version of "Ronda" to the more popular, hit version of "Rhonda". To me, the first version is more like a polished "Brian production", whereas the second version is more "garage-band" like. But, it was a #1 single, as opposed to a mere album cut, so what do I know? Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 04:10:48 PM »


Important to note, and he can say it better obviously, Stephen Desper said when Murry dropped in on sessions when he was recording the band in the late 60's, Murry would act the same way, barking orders like "Surge!" as the mix and session was happening. It added nothing to the process other than being the same distraction it was on the earlier dates with Chuck Britz.
 

I wonder if Murry was at the Help Me, Ronda (Today version) session, because the whole back-and-forth surging volume in the outro is very odd, and I don't think it works quite properly. Almost seems like an idea that would have been Murry's during mixing, but perhaps not.

To me, that fade-out, fade-in idea could only have come from the genius mind of Brian Wilson. I've always really dug it! But then, I'm in the very small minority who actually prefer that version of "Ronda" to the more popular, hit version of "Rhonda". To me, the first version is more like a polished "Brian production", whereas the second version is more "garage-band" like. But, it was a #1 single, as opposed to a mere album cut, so what do I know? Smiley

Despite the fade, I generally kinda prefer Ronda to Rhonda also! Same for the album cut of Be True to Your School. Often the original can't be beat.
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2015, 06:19:53 PM »

When did Hal Blaine begin working with the BBs?
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2015, 06:26:14 PM »

When did Hal Blaine begin working with the BBs?
At the latest, July 1963 - see http://esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs63.html
AGD ref.
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2015, 08:19:38 PM »

When did Hal Blaine begin working with the BBs?

I think May '63.
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 08:35:55 PM »

Did he work much with them until a year later?
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2015, 09:17:52 PM »


Important to note, and he can say it better obviously, Stephen Desper said when Murry dropped in on sessions when he was recording the band in the late 60's, Murry would act the same way, barking orders like "Surge!" as the mix and session was happening. It added nothing to the process other than being the same distraction it was on the earlier dates with Chuck Britz.
 

I wonder if Murry was at the Help Me, Ronda (Today version) session, because the whole back-and-forth surging volume in the outro is very odd, and I don't think it works quite properly. Almost seems like an idea that would have been Murry's during mixing, but perhaps not.

To me, that fade-out, fade-in idea could only have come from the genius mind of Brian Wilson. I've always really dug it! But then, I'm in the very small minority who actually prefer that version of "Ronda" to the more popular, hit version of "Rhonda". To me, the first version is more like a polished "Brian production", whereas the second version is more "garage-band" like. But, it was a #1 single, as opposed to a mere album cut, so what do I know? Smiley

I'm with you there ... No way anyone other than BW came up with that fade ... Simply because it's really bizarre, especially in the context of early 1965 pop. I always took it as the first sign of "drug music".
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« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2015, 04:19:22 AM »

Did he work much with them until a year later?

Hal played drums on such '63 tracks as "Surfer Moon" and "Our Car Club", but those were both cut with other artists in mind, becoming BBs tracks later. He accompanied the group on timbales for "Hawaii", and I believe he drummed on the single version of "Be True To Your School", which has Wrecking Crewmanship written all over it.
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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2015, 07:58:59 AM »

The credit "produced by Brian Wilson" was and is accurate, that's why Murry or no one else got that credit on those releases. On the earliest Capitol material, Nik Venet's name had to be there because that's the way the business was at that time - the label A&R man got that credit because that was the system, especially with a band both in and barely out of their teens, in the days before the "producer" role was defined as more of what Brian was doing than Venet was doing with the BB's. But even Venet knew as soon as it started to roll that Brian was the hands-on guy behind the sounds, not him, not Murry. No one else was getting those sounds - and the fact Capitol allowed this young guy to go to an outside indie studio rather than the Capitol tower even at that young age says a lot: The line was, if Brian could deliver those sounds elsewhere (i.e. Western), we're OK with it. Pretty amazing to buck the corporate studio structure like that, especially at that age, and it wasn't based on Murry's studio pep talks, incessant barking, and ballyhoo salesmanship or anything else - It was the sounds Brian was soon delivering to his label. Hit records that made money for the label.

No matter how much Murry barked orders and tried to futz with the mixes, the guy who had the talent, vision and ran the actual show in the studio was Brian. Consider that Help Me Rhonda session everyone has heard: Murry was invited to come down to the session after being fired as hands-on manager. It seems like he couldn't control his own impulses that day and started slipping back into the behavior that got him kicked out of the recording process in the first place. Did he add anything to what Brian was already doing by barking orders at the guys through the talkback? Did his pep talks and hectoring to "sing from your heart" and half-baked praise contribute anything to the process which was already up and running as Brian was producing yet another hit single to be? Absolutely nothing. He was a distraction. He tried to exert whatever control and power he thought he had over the recording process, and it was all empty bellowing. They laughed at him and mocked him.

Is there any reason to doubt that what we hear from Murry on that tape, combined with what Desper said he did even years later than this by yelling "surge here!" as the actual work was being done, was anything beyond the way he acted a majority of the time in the studio? Or if someone takes that Rhonda tape, all 40 minutes of it that got out, as an example, would they assume Murry was producing the session because he was both the loudest and the most frequent voice heard over the talkback? It was all bluster and throwing a power trip around as the actual work was being done, work that led to a successful single with Brian Wilson producing as he saw fit. All of Murry's talk was pointless.

Just as pointless as Murry's knob-twiddling and "mixing" work that amounted to him getting a fake console to play with while Brian and Chuck did the actual work of writing, arranging, producing and mixing hit records. Murry liked to hear himself talk, and even more he liked to throw a power trip on his son(s) whose talent he may have been more jealous of than we even know he was.

"Produced by Brian Wilson", credited as such because it's accurate.
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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2015, 08:05:12 AM »

Slightly off-topic, but how and when did the infamous Help Me Rhonda  tape with Murray lecturing everybody on it, leak out? Was that from the SOT boots, or separate from those? I can only imagine what the public reaction must've been like at the time when that tape finally went public.
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2015, 08:06:20 AM »

The credit "produced by Brian Wilson" was and is accurate, that's why Murry or no one else got that credit on those releases. On the earliest Capitol material, Nik Venet's name had to be there because that's the way the business was at that time - the label A&R man got that credit because that was the system, especially with a band both in and barely out of their teens, in the days before the "producer" role was defined as more of what Brian was doing than Venet was doing with the BB's. But even Venet knew as soon as it started to roll that Brian was the hands-on guy behind the sounds, not him, not Murry. No one else was getting those sounds - and the fact Capitol allowed this young guy to go to an outside indie studio rather than the Capitol tower even at that young age says a lot: The line was, if Brian could deliver those sounds elsewhere (i.e. Western), we're OK with it. Pretty amazing to buck the corporate studio structure like that, especially at that age, and it wasn't based on Murry's studio pep talks, incessant barking, and ballyhoo salesmanship or anything else - It was the sounds Brian was soon delivering to his label. Hit records that made money for the label.

No matter how much Murry barked orders and tried to futz with the mixes, the guy who had the talent, vision and ran the actual show in the studio was Brian. Consider that Help Me Rhonda session everyone has heard: Murry was invited to come down to the session after being fired as hands-on manager. It seems like he couldn't control his own impulses that day and started slipping back into the behavior that got him kicked out of the recording process in the first place. Did he add anything to what Brian was already doing by barking orders at the guys through the talkback? Did his pep talks and hectoring to "sing from your heart" and half-baked praise contribute anything to the process which was already up and running as Brian was producing yet another hit single to be? Absolutely nothing. He was a distraction. He tried to exert whatever control and power he thought he had over the recording process, and it was all empty bellowing. They laughed at him and mocked him.

Is there any reason to doubt that what we hear from Murry on that tape, combined with what Desper said he did even years later than this by yelling "surge here!" as the actual work was being done, was anything beyond the way he acted a majority of the time in the studio? Or if someone takes that Rhonda tape, all 40 minutes of it that got out, as an example, would they assume Murry was producing the session because he was both the loudest and the most frequent voice heard over the talkback? It was all bluster and throwing a power trip around as the actual work was being done, work that led to a successful single with Brian Wilson producing as he saw fit. All of Murry's talk was pointless.

Just as pointless as Murry's knob-twiddling and "mixing" work that amounted to him getting a fake console to play with while Brian and Chuck did the actual work of writing, arranging, producing and mixing hit records. Murry liked to hear himself talk, and even more he liked to throw a power trip on his son(s) whose talent he may have been more jealous of than we even know he was.

"Produced by Brian Wilson", credited as such because it's accurate.
Also, in the Help Me Rhonda session, Brian's very controlled patience and repetition of "times have changed" sounds to me like someone who's been going through exactly that scenario for a few years. It's not new. Brian sounds like he's been trying to get his dad to back off and recognize that times have changed, musically, for a while.
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hideyotsuburaya
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2015, 08:14:15 AM »

Nick Venet told Murry the label would no longer pay for anymore sessions outside of Capitol's own studios, so Murry made a deal with Nick contingent on the chart performance of the very next 45 - Little Deuce Coupe (which was recorded outside).  If it went top 10 Nick would back-off and pay for the session, if it did not make top 10 Murry would have to get Brian to return to Capitol's studios (because in the final analysis it'd be Murry who'd have to foot the recording bill out of publishing royalties).  Murry won and Nick didn't bring up the subject again (or at least for another 4 years, at which time Murry was no longer involved in those matters).

Why Brian Wilson & Murry Wilson didn't have co-producer credits on the record labels - because simply it'd look stupid.  Murry knew this intuitively
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2015, 08:37:34 AM »

Nick Venet told Murry the label would no longer pay for anymore sessions outside of Capitol's own studios, so Murry made a deal with Nick contingent on the chart performance of the very next 45 - Little Deuce Coupe (which was recorded outside).  If it went top 10 Nick would back-off and pay for the session, if it did not make top 10 Murry would have to get Brian to return to Capitol's studios (because in the final analysis it'd be Murry who'd have to foot the recording bill out of publishing royalties).  Murry won and Nick didn't bring up the subject again (or at least for another 4 years, at which time Murry was no longer involved in those matters).

Why Brian Wilson & Murry Wilson didn't have co-producer credits on the record labels - because simply it'd look stupid.  Murry knew this intuitively

So basically Capitol was OK with Brian using outside studios as long as he delivered hit records for Capitol...just like I said. When the singles were sounding as good as they had been since the band's first Capitol release Surfin Safari/409 which was cut at Western, and Brian wanted to cut at Western instead of Capitol's tower, it was hard to argue with the results.

I don't get the line about producer's credit...are you saying Murry should have gotten credit in your opinion? What Murry knew intuitively played out quite well in the way he handled the band's finances and screwed over his own family. As far as talent and ability, Murry could bark orders and turn fake knobs all he wanted while Brian actually produced the records.

Credit where credit is due - Murry was their manager, he didn't get a producer credit because he didn't deserve one. "Produced by Brian Wilson", that's accurate.
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hideyotsuburaya
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2015, 09:20:48 AM »

there's contention that on the early recordings Murry could've claimed co-producer credit--that's the issue of this topic discussion--if he'd wanted to assert himself there.  Brian was a neophyte and Murry had to facilitate his sons' songwriting & recording desires insofar as possible.  Although things changed before too long Brian was more comfortable having Murry at the sessions too,  so his input may or may not've warranted co-producer credit sometimes.  Fortunately I think, he didn't pursue this.  Murry agreed that recording at studios completely of their own choosing (instead of @ Capitol) was beneficial as it gave them unique control of the final recorded product--provided Capitol footed the bill (the spectre hanging over Murry's head was getting the session bills forwarded to him for SOT to pay).  If Murry had lost and recording returned to Capitol's studios then we'd almost certainly see nothing but albums with 1 hit single plus 10 filler tracks--the usual formula then.  
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 09:24:31 AM by hideyotsuburaya » Logged
Emily
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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2015, 09:36:14 AM »

there's contention that on the early recordings Murry could've claimed co-producer credit--that's the issue of this topic discussion--if he'd wanted to assert himself there.  Brian was a neophyte and Murry had to facilitate his sons' songwriting & recording desires insofar as possible.  Although things changed before too long Brian was more comfortable having Murry at the sessions too,  so his input may or may not've warranted co-producer credit sometimes.  Fortunately I think, he didn't pursue this.  Murry agreed that recording at studios completely of their own choosing (instead of @ Capitol) was beneficial as it gave them unique control of the final recorded product--provided Capitol footed the bill (the spectre hanging over Murry's head was getting the session bills forwarded to him for SOT to pay).  If Murry had lost and recording returned to Capitol's studios then we'd almost certainly see nothing but albums with 1 hit single plus 10 filler tracks--the usual formula then.  
My impression was that the choice to record outside of Capitol was driven primarily by the fact that the Capitol studio was a big orchestra studio that didn't work well for BB music.
Getting away from the suits may have contributed, but I don't think Capitol was at that point saying that if you are in Capitol studios you must use Capitol producers and have a Capitol selected track listing. I think that these are sort of separate little battles, not one big deal.  And, regarding the bills going to SOT, properly the vast majority of that would've been Brian's money, not Murry's. Properly, Murry would've just been supporting Brian and the band by performing some legal functions and helping where he could, but then backing off. That's a parent's job. ETA: That's a parent's job when the offspring are that age and pursuing adult functions in the "real world"
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 09:46:34 AM by Emily » Logged
Cam Mott
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« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2015, 09:41:46 AM »

Was "409" produced by Murry?

As per c-man, what do the tapes show, if anything?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 09:43:21 AM by Cam Mott » Logged

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