Brian and Murry not crediting each other properly

[Cam Mott]

Just thinking that the crux of the debate here may be: was Murry the boss of the proceedings?
I mean, we all agree at this point that suggestions can come from all over the place and that, even if the person making suggestions was a loudmouth, it's still only a suggestion unless you're the decider,like George W.
Is there evidence that, ultimately, BW wasn't the decider?

Aren't Carl and Brian addressing that when saying Murry was sometimes the co-producer and sometimes the producer?

[Emily]

Just thinking that the crux of the debate here may be: was Murry the boss of the proceedings?
I mean, we all agree at this point that suggestions can come from all over the place and that, even if the person making suggestions was a loudmouth, it's still only a suggestion unless you're the decider,like George W.
Is there evidence that, ultimately, BW wasn't the decider?

Aren't Carl and Brian addressing that when saying Murry was sometimes the co-producer and sometimes the producer?

If you're asking me, frankly I don't know enough to make an assertion and I am listening to (reading) people who evidently know a lot more than I do and I hope can come up with a definitive answer, but I'm thinking that maybe the hard information only brings us 50% of the way and the rest is conjecture, so nothing definitive can be concluded.

[Bicyclerider]

"Someone sitting in the booth and giving advice is not a producer"

On the contrary.  You seem to have some fixed false beliefs about what constitutes a producer.  Not everyone fits the George Martin mode, as I've pointed out there were many "do nothing" producers who called out takes (or let the engineer do that, as at Abbey Road) and let the artists dictate how the session would go - Tom Wilson for example.  Murry's input into the sessions is completely compatible with a role as "producer."  He had input into the final product.  And was considered a coproduction or producer by the artists themselves.  I'm not sure what there is to argue about at this point.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

"Someone sitting in the booth and giving advice is not a producer"

On the contrary.  You seem to have some fixed false beliefs about what constitutes a producer.  Not everyone fits the George Martin mode, as I've pointed out there were many "do nothing" producers who called out takes (or let the engineer do that, as at Abbey Road) and let the artists dictate how the session would go - Tom Wilson for example.  Murry's input into the sessions is completely compatible with a role as "producer."  He had input into the final product.  And was considered a coproduction or producer by the artists themselves.  I'm not sure what there is to argue about at this point.

Guitarfool thinks that if we, on this message board, accept c-man's and Cam Mott's arguments, it will turn the music industry on its head, spawn thousands of lawsuits and destroy Brian Wilson's reputation in the music industry.

[guitarfool2002]

"Someone sitting in the booth and giving advice is not a producer"

On the contrary.  You seem to have some fixed false beliefs about what constitutes a producer.  Not everyone fits the George Martin mode, as I've pointed out there were many "do nothing" producers who called out takes (or let the engineer do that, as at Abbey Road) and let the artists dictate how the session would go - Tom Wilson for example.  Murry's input into the sessions is completely compatible with a role as "producer."  He had input into the final product.  And was considered a coproduction or producer by the artists themselves.  I'm not sure what there is to argue about at this point.

Guitarfool thinks that if we, on this message board, accept c-man's and Cam Mott's arguments, it will turn the music industry on its head, spawn thousands of lawsuits and destroy Brian Wilson's reputation in the music industry.

False beliefs? Since I've actually been paid (real money) to produce songs, demos, and a few full albums in the past, I'd say I'm aware of what a producer does.  

And in those dealings I've also seen people who literally don't know what they're doing start throwing empty orders around the room more as a power play than as actual constructive commentary. Reminded me quite a bit of the descriptions of Murry in the studio given by Desper and Blaine among others. The recording process can be as much of a psychological trip as it is getting down to the actual business of recording music, especially when you're dealing with people who are paying you to record their music.

[guitarfool2002]

Serious question. Why focus on only Murry's credits when there are some highly regarded post-Capitol albums in the Beach Boys discography where a case could be made that through his innovations and contributions, the engineer (Stephen Desper credited as Chief Engineer and Mixer) could easily be given a co-production credit on any number of songs if not the full albums like Sunflower and Surf's Up, based on the standards being applied to give Murry credit retroactively. Stephen did more for the final outcome and sound of that music than Murry or Venet offered in 62-63. Maybe "produced by The Beach Boys" or even assigning credit to Carl Wilson in those cases should be taken to task next, based on some of the standards that open the door for Murry's retroactive crediting.

[Emily]

"Someone sitting in the booth and giving advice is not a producer"

On the contrary.  You seem to have some fixed false beliefs about what constitutes a producer.  Not everyone fits the George Martin mode, as I've pointed out there were many "do nothing" producers who called out takes (or let the engineer do that, as at Abbey Road) and let the artists dictate how the session would go - Tom Wilson for example.  Murry's input into the sessions is completely compatible with a role as "producer."  He had input into the final product.  And was considered a coproduction or producer by the artists themselves.  I'm not sure what there is to argue about at this point.

Guitarfool thinks that if we, on this message board, accept c-man's and Cam Mott's arguments, it will turn the music industry on its head, spawn thousands of lawsuits and destroy Brian Wilson's reputation in the music industry.

I don't think that's a fair thing to say.
As pointed out by many people here, it's a job with many interpretations, which actually in the end supports what GF is saying, not the reverse. If there are many variations in a role's definition, then the crediting is more dependent on situational understanding (hopefully captured in an agreed-upon document) than any objective measurement.
So whether someone was "a producer" would depend on how the role was contractually defined for that production at that time.

If you think of a corporate project manager - the PM's involvement in the production of a product can vary wildly; in some cases a PM might be a hands on producer or contributing architect, making actual implementation decisions; a PM might delegate many typical PM tasks to other people; a PM might stay aloof entirely from production,  acting strictly as scheduler and high-level organizer and budget manager. There is an institute that defines a public definition of project manager, but it really varies from job to job. Hopefully, a PM has a document specifying what the corporation defines his or her job to be on that project.

With a record producer, it seems, as with corporate pms, there were several models:
-a Spector kind of model - full out hands on in-the-end-the-product-really-is-his;
-a Nik Venet type role (no longer often credited as Producer, but it often was then) - a scheduler, more of a by-the-book-project-organizer-and-corporate-liaison than a part of the creative team;
-a George Martin sort - contributes creatively, guides the sessions, and is the corporate liaison; and I'm sure other models as well.

If things are structured well, contracts will explicitly define the role of the producer, he/she will perform the role as defined, get paid and credited according to the contract and there should be no controversy.

But that still leaves room for different contracts to have different definitions of the producer's job.

What's being debated here isn't really clear. There's a jumble of posts about what Murry Wilson actually did; and a jumble of posts about whether what he actually did should be considered producing.

In order to discuss the latter effectively, an agreed upon definition of producer would be needed. Then one could apply what one understood Murry Wilson to have done to that definition and have a yes or no, by that definition.

Regarding credits, whatever definition of "producer" is agreed upon here may not be the definition that they were working with at that time. As with the PM analogy - in the end, it's a job and if the company gives you that title and you do what you're supposed to do, then you're the Producer whether or not you got involved creatively, delegated some of the work, were out sick or on vacation some of the time, took suggestions and input from others, or even allowed someone else to boss you around on things that were your own responsibility. If it's your title and you don't get fired, you get to put it on your CV and the other people don't.

So, I think GF is right, on the one hand, by essentially saying, "it doesn't matter what Murry did in the studio, he wasn't the Producer, so he wasn't the producer. And giving input or even making decisions doesn't make him the Producer." (correct me if this is a false characterization).

By the same token, I think it's reasonable for others to say, "But the things he did are things that are often done by Producers so while I don't consider him to be the Producer (a contracted title), I do consider him to be a producer (a conceptual role)."

I know that this comment contradicts others I've made before. Like Obama, I reserve the right to have an evolving opinion. And I consider it far from definitive.

[Mike's Beard]

Nobody is making a claim that Murry should retroactively be given production credits. The question was 'if Murry did do things that could be considered producing duties, why did he never seek credit at the time?'

[DonnyL]

Plenty of other production credits to discuss (I've mentioned a few earlier). The "Produced by the Beach Boys" credit, as it appeared on Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, I personally think was Brian's "out" -- I think he was still producing the records, but did not want to put his name on the credit.

[Emily]

Nobody is making a claim that Murry should retroactively be given production credits. The question was 'if Murry did do things that could be considered producing duties, why did he never seek credit at the time?'

That was not the original question. It's been put out by a few people but it's evident from reading the thread that that's not the main thing people are focusing on.
But, I think my latest comment applies to that: the decision was based on the titles and job descriptions as they were understood by the participants at the time, hopefully explicitly set out, but maybe not.

[Cam Mott]

Guitarfool thinks that if we, on this message board, accept c-man's and Cam Mott's arguments, it will turn the music industry on its head, spawn thousands of lawsuits and destroy Brian Wilson's reputation in the music industry.

Whoa now. GF2002 is just opining his perspective from his experience. I can't speak for GF2002, but let's not get carried away.

In this case, imo, Carl and Brian's perspective trumps GF2002's perspective.

[Cam Mott]

Plenty of other production credits to discuss (I've mentioned a few earlier). The "Produced by the Beach Boys" credit, as it appeared on Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, I personally think was Brian's "out" -- I think he was still producing the records, but did not want to put his name on the credit.

Stop me if I've told this before......(I'm gonna tell it anyway)........FWIW I asked Jim Lockert, like 15 years or so ago, about the whole band getting Producer credit on some albums he engineered and he said he didn't know why. He said Brian was the Producer on the albums and the Boys just offered suggestions which Brian might try or not.

So again Lockert's perspective subject to the band's perspective. I've seen Alan Boyd mention in passing a 60's interview where Carl says Brian was the Producer of Smiley I believe. Anybody familiar with that or any other information?   

[Mike's Beard]

Nobody is making a claim that Murry should retroactively be given production credits. The question was 'if Murry did do things that could be considered producing duties, why did he never seek credit at the time?'

That was not the original question. It's been put out by a few people but it's evident from reading the thread that that's not the main thing people are focusing on.
But, I think my latest comment applies to that: the decision was based on the titles and job descriptions as they were understood by the participants at the time, hopefully explicitly set out, but maybe not.

Although worded differently, it was the second question/point asked in this thread.

[c-man]

Plenty of other production credits to discuss (I've mentioned a few earlier). The "Produced by the Beach Boys" credit, as it appeared on Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, I personally think was Brian's "out" -- I think he was still producing the records, but did not want to put his name on the credit.

Stop me if I've told this before......(I'm gonna tell it anyway)........FWIW I asked Jim Lockert, like 15 years or so ago, about the whole band getting Producer credit on some albums he engineered and he said he didn't know why. He said Brian was the Producer on the albums and the Boys just offered suggestions which Brian might try or not.

So again Lockert's perspective subject to the band's perspective. I've seen Alan Boyd mention in passing a 60's interview where Carl says Brian was the Producer of Smiley I believe. Anybody familiar with that or any other information?   

This dovetails nicely with what Dennis told DJ Pete Fornatale in 1976: when Fornatale commented on how it seemed that the Beach Boys were pretty much Brian Wilson's vehicle and vision (or words to that effect), until that seemed to end with a "thud" right around the time of Smiley Smile, Dennis replied that it happened because Brian decided that the albums would now say "Produced by The Beach Boys" instead of "Produced by Brian Wilson". Which implies Brian was still, indeed, still the de facto producer, and merely wanted to take some pressure off himself by crediting the whole group. I would add that I've heard Carl state in an interview (around 1988) that "Do It Again" was the first time HE became involved as a producer. But I'll backtrack just a bit to say that, in my opinion and based on having heard the session tape, that Brian and Dennis co-produced "Little Bird" from Friends, and that Murry (yes, Murry) was there, co-producing, on "Meant For You" and "Transcendental Meditation". And possibly others on that album. But otherwise, yes, I think Brian was in full producer mode until mid-'68 or so, which is when folks speculate he may have been institutionalized, and came out "not quite the same". That's when the other guys truly had to step in and become producers, and we see them credited individually on 20/20 as a result.

As for Desper, yes - I could easily envision him warranting a "co-produced by" or "associate producer" credit, or something to that effect, for Sunflower and Surf's Up, if such a credit was being retroactively given (which it isn't).

[CenturyDeprived]

Plenty of other production credits to discuss (I've mentioned a few earlier). The "Produced by the Beach Boys" credit, as it appeared on Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, I personally think was Brian's "out" -- I think he was still producing the records, but did not want to put his name on the credit.

Stop me if I've told this before......(I'm gonna tell it anyway)........FWIW I asked Jim Lockert, like 15 years or so ago, about the whole band getting Producer credit on some albums he engineered and he said he didn't know why. He said Brian was the Producer on the albums and the Boys just offered suggestions which Brian might try or not.

So again Lockert's perspective subject to the band's perspective. I've seen Alan Boyd mention in passing a 60's interview where Carl says Brian was the Producer of Smiley I believe. Anybody familiar with that or any other information?  

This dovetails nicely with what Dennis told DJ Pete Fornatale in 1976: when Fornatale commented on how it seemed that the Beach Boys were pretty much Brian Wilson's vehicle and vision (or words to that effect), until that seemed to end with a "thud" right around the time of Smiley Smile, Dennis replied that it happened because Brian decided that the albums would now say "Produced by The Beach Boys" instead of "Produced by Brian Wilson". Which implies Brian was still, indeed, still the de facto producer, and merely wanted to take some pressure off himself by crediting the whole group. I would add that I've heard Carl state in an interview (around 1988) that "Do It Again" was the first time HE became involved as a producer. But I'll backtrack just a bit to say that, in my opinion and based on having heard the session tape, that Brian and Dennis co-produced "Little Bird" from Friends, and that Murry (yes, Murry) was there, co-producing, on "Meant For You" and "Transcendental Meditation". And possibly others on that album. But otherwise, yes, I think Brian was in full producer mode until mid-'68 or so, which is when folks speculate he may have been institutionalized, and came out "not quite the same". That's when the other guys truly had to step in and become producers, and we see them credited individually on 20/20 as a result.

As for Desper, yes - I could easily envision him warranting a "co-produced by" or "associate producer" credit, or something to that effect, for Sunflower and Surf's Up, if such a credit was being retroactively given (which it isn't).

Weird about Murry in the studio during "Transcendental Meditation". I have to say, that particular track stands out to me as having a bit of an old-time, unusual sound with the big band type feel. While it may have been all just Brian directing the horn players to sound a certain way (or perhaps the musicians themselves just having freedom to do their thing), and maybe is just Brian trying something different... some of the song almost sounds like it would have the input of someone else (from a different time than Brian) calling the shots a bit.

Almost like the Dick Reynolds sound on some BB Christmas songs - which again, sounds quite noticeably unlike Brian, as those songs are in fact unlike Brian (who didn't arrange those Christmas song parts). I wonder if "Transcendental Meditation" is another example of a situation like that. Of course, I could be dead wrong - it's just a theory.

[DonnyL]

Plenty of other production credits to discuss (I've mentioned a few earlier). The "Produced by the Beach Boys" credit, as it appeared on Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, I personally think was Brian's "out" -- I think he was still producing the records, but did not want to put his name on the credit.

Stop me if I've told this before......(I'm gonna tell it anyway)........FWIW I asked Jim Lockert, like 15 years or so ago, about the whole band getting Producer credit on some albums he engineered and he said he didn't know why. He said Brian was the Producer on the albums and the Boys just offered suggestions which Brian might try or not.

So again Lockert's perspective subject to the band's perspective. I've seen Alan Boyd mention in passing a 60's interview where Carl says Brian was the Producer of Smiley I believe. Anybody familiar with that or any other information?  

This dovetails nicely with what Dennis told DJ Pete Fornatale in 1976: when Fornatale commented on how it seemed that the Beach Boys were pretty much Brian Wilson's vehicle and vision (or words to that effect), until that seemed to end with a "thud" right around the time of Smiley Smile, Dennis replied that it happened because Brian decided that the albums would now say "Produced by The Beach Boys" instead of "Produced by Brian Wilson". Which implies Brian was still, indeed, still the de facto producer, and merely wanted to take some pressure off himself by crediting the whole group. I would add that I've heard Carl state in an interview (around 1988) that "Do It Again" was the first time HE became involved as a producer. But I'll backtrack just a bit to say that, in my opinion and based on having heard the session tape, that Brian and Dennis co-produced "Little Bird" from Friends, and that Murry (yes, Murry) was there, co-producing, on "Meant For You" and "Transcendental Meditation". And possibly others on that album. But otherwise, yes, I think Brian was in full producer mode until mid-'68 or so, which is when folks speculate he may have been institutionalized, and came out "not quite the same". That's when the other guys truly had to step in and become producers, and we see them credited individually on 20/20 as a result.

As for Desper, yes - I could easily envision him warranting a "co-produced by" or "associate producer" credit, or something to that effect, for Sunflower and Surf's Up, if such a credit was being retroactively given (which it isn't).

Weird about Murry in the studio during "Transcendental Meditation". I have to say, that particular track stands out to me as having a bit of an old-time, unusual sound with the big band type feel. While it may have been all just Brian directing the horn players to sound a certain way (or perhaps the musicians themselves just having freedom to do their thing), and maybe is just Brian trying something different... some of the song almost sounds like it would have the input of someone else (from a different time than Brian) calling the shots a bit.

Almost like the Dick Reynolds sound on some BB Christmas songs - which again, sounds quite noticeably unlike Brian, as those songs are in fact unlike Brian (who didn't arrange those Christmas song parts). I wonder if "Transcendental Meditation" is another example of a situation like that. Of course, I could be dead wrong - it's just a theory.

"... no guys, 'TranscenDENtal Meditation CAN' doo-be-dah-dah-do-dee ... come on Al, treble up, 'it's COOOOOL!!!'"

[CenturyDeprived]

Plenty of other production credits to discuss (I've mentioned a few earlier). The "Produced by the Beach Boys" credit, as it appeared on Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, I personally think was Brian's "out" -- I think he was still producing the records, but did not want to put his name on the credit.

Stop me if I've told this before......(I'm gonna tell it anyway)........FWIW I asked Jim Lockert, like 15 years or so ago, about the whole band getting Producer credit on some albums he engineered and he said he didn't know why. He said Brian was the Producer on the albums and the Boys just offered suggestions which Brian might try or not.

So again Lockert's perspective subject to the band's perspective. I've seen Alan Boyd mention in passing a 60's interview where Carl says Brian was the Producer of Smiley I believe. Anybody familiar with that or any other information?  

This dovetails nicely with what Dennis told DJ Pete Fornatale in 1976: when Fornatale commented on how it seemed that the Beach Boys were pretty much Brian Wilson's vehicle and vision (or words to that effect), until that seemed to end with a "thud" right around the time of Smiley Smile, Dennis replied that it happened because Brian decided that the albums would now say "Produced by The Beach Boys" instead of "Produced by Brian Wilson". Which implies Brian was still, indeed, still the de facto producer, and merely wanted to take some pressure off himself by crediting the whole group. I would add that I've heard Carl state in an interview (around 1988) that "Do It Again" was the first time HE became involved as a producer. But I'll backtrack just a bit to say that, in my opinion and based on having heard the session tape, that Brian and Dennis co-produced "Little Bird" from Friends, and that Murry (yes, Murry) was there, co-producing, on "Meant For You" and "Transcendental Meditation". And possibly others on that album. But otherwise, yes, I think Brian was in full producer mode until mid-'68 or so, which is when folks speculate he may have been institutionalized, and came out "not quite the same". That's when the other guys truly had to step in and become producers, and we see them credited individually on 20/20 as a result.

As for Desper, yes - I could easily envision him warranting a "co-produced by" or "associate producer" credit, or something to that effect, for Sunflower and Surf's Up, if such a credit was being retroactively given (which it isn't).

Weird about Murry in the studio during "Transcendental Meditation". I have to say, that particular track stands out to me as having a bit of an old-time, unusual sound with the big band type feel. While it may have been all just Brian directing the horn players to sound a certain way (or perhaps the musicians themselves just having freedom to do their thing), and maybe is just Brian trying something different... some of the song almost sounds like it would have the input of someone else (from a different time than Brian) calling the shots a bit.

Almost like the Dick Reynolds sound on some BB Christmas songs - which again, sounds quite noticeably unlike Brian, as those songs are in fact unlike Brian (who didn't arrange those Christmas song parts). I wonder if "Transcendental Meditation" is another example of a situation like that. Of course, I could be dead wrong - it's just a theory.

"... no guys, 'TranscenDENtal Meditation CAN' doo-be-dah-dah-do-dee ... come on Al, treble up, 'it's COOOOOL!!!'"

 

I guess Murry's favorite James Dean film was Treble Without a Cause?

[Andrew G. Doe]

But otherwise, yes, I think Brian was in full producer mode until mid-'68 or so, which is when folks speculate he may have been institutionalized, and came out "not quite the same".

The implication - which has been suggested to me more than once - is, of course, chilling.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

But otherwise, yes, I think Brian was in full producer mode until mid-'68 or so, which is when folks speculate he may have been institutionalized, and came out "not quite the same".

The implication - which has been suggested to me more than once - is, of course, chilling.

Agreed-- that comment landed with a heavy "thud" when I read it too. My lord, what that man has (or may have been) subjected too...

[guitarfool2002]

Guitarfool thinks that if we, on this message board, accept c-man's and Cam Mott's arguments, it will turn the music industry on its head, spawn thousands of lawsuits and destroy Brian Wilson's reputation in the music industry.

Whoa now. GF2002 is just opining his perspective from his experience. I can't speak for GF2002, but let's not get carried away.

In this case, imo, Carl and Brian's perspective trumps GF2002's perspective.

And no one in their right mind would have suggested otherwise. I was just replying to a comment I found funny about me having some fantasy version of what a producer did when for a few years I actually did work as a producer and made a few albums for paying clients. No smash hits, unfortunately.

What I find curious though is how after posting Hal Blaine's perspective (someone who worked in the studio when Murry was there with the Beach Boys and when Murry was producing the Sunrays), instead of acknowledging it, Cam, you followed up with questions about when Hal actually worked with the band, the timeline of the Sunrays, etc...I can understand wanting to set the record straight but unfortunately nothing exists to answer your questions which would cast doubt on Hal's perspective since he was actually there to witness Murry in the studio. And his perspective was that Murry was an asshole, and he wanted Brian to produce records according to his fantasy version of how Lawrence Welk made records in the 1950's while Welk wanted to make records like Brian was making in the 1960's to appeal to the teen audience.

Then...Chuck Britz. If anyone was right there in the trenches as all of this was going down, from that first "real" session held at Western instead of a living room studio like the Morgans had, and if anyone was as hands-on and vital to the actual process of making these recordings as anyone, it was Chuck Britz. And he said from those earliest sessions it was Brian producing those records.

Cam - What would you reply to Chuck Britz if he were still with us and said exactly what he said in that quote? Would you argue with him?

I never discounted what Brian said about whatever songs he'd say Murry contributed to. To restate yet again, the issue was how much credit would people be willing to give Murry on albums from 62-64 beyond the few that Brian would point out? And how far would it be taken to the point of changing the credit as it appeared and still appears on those albums?

I'll say again, Murry was the manager, and got paid and credited as such. If what he did beyond that warranted a production credit on any of those albums, it would have been there. But take a look at the credits on Surfer Girl, Little Deuce Coupe, and Shut Down vol 2. One of them has Capitol thanking "Beach Boy Brian Wilson for producing what we consider to be the finest Beach Boys album yet", the other reads "Arranged and Produced by Brian Wilson", and the other says "Produced by Brian Wilson".

I see no reason to go back and change that. And if, as said, no one will be advocating that or trying to make those changes in some official capacity anytime in the future, then that is just fine with me. Because to do so would serve no purpose. There are plenty of facts to be looked at under a microscope and parsed and picked apart...Brian producing these classic records ain't one of them.

[Cam Mott]

Changing the credit on albums is not something I spoke to at all and I would not be in favor of it. Did anyone advocate retroactively changing the credits? I don't remember it.

Re. Hal and Chuck: I did what I did with the claim from Lockert and looked for corroborating evidence. Ie. the Boys opinions, etc.. No one brought it up, but according to Desper, Lockert wasn't at ever session during his tenure, just like Chuck and Hal weren't at every (or even most?) sessions during the timeframe we were looking at regarding Murry. If I was able to follow everything.  So that shades the claims of all three. And just like with Lockert, the Boys'/Brian's claims regarding who was the producer would trump the opinion of all 3 guys who were only present some of the time in question.

[guitarfool2002]

On the issue of changing production credits, it's good to see the opinion overall seems to be against it.

On the issue of weighing and shading the various comments and perspectives, consider both Brian and Carl were sons talking about their late father. Compare that background to a professional studio drummer and several professional engineers who were there as employees to do the job of making records for the Beach Boys. Again, not that I'm weighing the comments that way, but if that were being done, you'd have the difference between sons talking about their father versus "outsiders" who were there to do a job and were not connected to the family. Which of the two would possibly be a more unfiltered account of what was observed during these sessions?

[Cam Mott]

On the issue of changing production credits, it's good to see the opinion overall seems to be against it.

On the issue of weighing and shading the various comments and perspectives, consider both Brian and Carl were sons talking about their late father. Compare that background to a professional studio drummer and several professional engineers who were there as employees to do the job of making records for the Beach Boys. Again, not that I'm weighing the comments that way, but if that were being done, you'd have the difference between sons talking about their father versus "outsiders" who were there to do a job and were not connected to the family. Which of the two would possibly be a more unfiltered account of what was observed during these sessions?

My first thought is angry kids would be less likely to over credit their old man I suppose.

Again regarding Murry, also consider those "outsiders" seem to have not been at many/most of the sessions in question yet on the other hand I'm sure they are mostly correct about the sessions they did attend and, as I think I've made clear, I too believe that Brian was the pre-eminent and legendary producer during the timespan he chose to produce but with occasional production and co-production by Murry. Murry who didn't get, or apparently want, credit for for his producing/co-producing.

I'm not even sure anymore we are in disagreement.

[Emily]

On the issue of changing production credits, it's good to see the opinion overall seems to be against it.

On the issue of weighing and shading the various comments and perspectives, consider both Brian and Carl were sons talking about their late father. Compare that background to a professional studio drummer and several professional engineers who were there as employees to do the job of making records for the Beach Boys. Again, not that I'm weighing the comments that way, but if that were being done, you'd have the difference between sons talking about their father versus "outsiders" who were there to do a job and were not connected to the family. Which of the two would possibly be a more unfiltered account of what was observed during these sessions?

My first thought is angry kids would be less likely to over credit their old man I suppose.

Again regarding Murry, also consider those "outsiders" seem to have not been at many/most of the sessions in question yet on the other hand I'm sure they are mostly correct about the sessions they did attend and, as I think I've made clear, I too believe that Brian was the pre-eminent and legendary producer during the timespan he chose to produce but with occasional production and co-production by Murry. Murry who didn't get, or apparently want, credit for for his producing/co-producing.

I'm not even sure anymore we are in disagreement.

I kind of don't think you are.

[Custom Machine]

"... no guys, 'TranscenDENtal Meditation CAN' doo-be-dah-dah-do-dee ... come on Al, treble up, 'it's COOOOOL!!!'"

Hah! However things played out it's sorta cool to imagine that something like your quote above may have actually taken place, with Murry still insisting that the guys treble up.

On one of the BB radio specials I recall Carl talking about Friends (don't recall if he was referring to the album or the single, I think it was the album), anyway he said something along the lines of (I'm going from memory here, so this is not an exact quote), "Friends was basically done by Brian and our Dad".

Concerning the early credits, since Brian and Carl both stated that Murry produced or co-produced some of their early stuff, that's all I need to hear to recognize that he did. We all know that Murry ultimately became a pest in the studio, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have contributed valuable producer's type guidance in the early days.