Did Landy ever realize he did anything wrong?

[ppk700]

I feel like if Denny had lived, and had sobered up even somewhat, that he might have gone to find Brian and might have tried to kick the sh*t out of Landy for taking advantage of his bro.

Good point. I can't imagine Dennis, of all people, would have allowed Brian to have been taken advantage of for so long. Just one more of the many reasons why Dennis went way too early.

[Mikie]

Dennis had his own problems. They tried to set him up with Landy and no dice. It was hard to get Dennis to sit still with anyone related to doctors and therapy and hospitalization. After 1977, forget soliciting Dennis' help with getting Landy out of the picture.

[filledeplage]

IMO, any doctor with even a modicum of ethics would not have told Morgan he wanted to stop being her therapist because he was falling in love with her.  He would have stopped the therapy and immediately walked away entirely.

So long as Landy would have "referred her" to another therapist (or better, she would have found her own) there should not have been a problem.  Humans connect for all kinds of reasons.  And it isn't a bad thing, so long as the relationships are clear and there are "boundaries" that separate the two.  No problem if he has a relationship, so long as he isn't her therapist, simultaneously.  Here, one has to give the devil his due.  Here, Landy seems to be in the clear. 

So using information gained in a doctor-patient relationship to snare the same woman puts him in the clear as long as he suspends treatment first? That would be like a medical doctor saying after an examination, "Hey you're kind of hot. I don't want to be your doctor anymore. Let's become lovers instead."

Excellent point. I wasn't thinking of that potentially sinister scenario, of his using information gathered from therapy sessions to "hit on" her, but was thinking only whether his or their "freedom of association" and "pursuit of happiness" would have been precluded by the former therapist-patient relationship, once the "professional relationship" had terminated, either with her getting a new therapist or ceasing therapy with Landy.  

Neither can be precluded from a personal relationship if there is no professional relationship going on at the time.  

That might be a good "general" concept to follow, if it is done, "in good faith."  The issue with Landy is that he didn't appear to have acted "in good faith."

[CenturyDeprived]

If that video above is correct that this is the same Alexandra Morgan we're talking about, then I think she's also been an actress in a bunch of obscure 70s films. According to these pics - she looks the same just older...

http://www.aveleyman.com/ActorCredit.aspx?ActorID=68493
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alexandra-Morgan-VINTAGE-Photo-First-Nudie-Musical-/300316632053

She was in an episode of Baywatch, apparently.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0604462/

How weird it would've been if the episode ever aired in a back-to-back block with the Beach Boys' Baywatch ep.

[dcowboys107]

True but I don't think it helped that people always seemed to have this ultimate goal to get Brian making music again ASAP. That should have never been a factor in getting Brian well again.

Agreed. I think the whole "Brian's back!" campaign was shameful exploitation of someone who was obviously unwell and unfit to be producing music.

To answer the original question, no I don't think so. As someone else stated, Landy strikes me as a complete sociopath. Just completely manipulative, ego-driven and ruthless, but also strangely disassociated from himself, lacking self-awareness or shame. It's hard to explain but after you've lived with or been in constant contact with an honest to god sociopath you know exactly what I mean. My ex-roommate struck me in the same way and opened my eyes to the fact that there are some really scary people out there. Landy was just one of those people who picked a profession that allowed him to exert complete control over others, and was lucky enough to be given a patient with vast amounts of money, fame and connections to take advantage of. It's like a real-life horror story, what happened. Completely inappropriate that someone in this thread would make light of such a thing.

I remember buying 15 Big Ones on vinyl several years ago after only being a fan for a handful of years. I was familiar with the back story and the whole "lying in bed" mythology, but I had the Shut Down Vol. 2 image of Brian in my head for the most part.  I did a double take seeing the disheveled, overweight man he had become in just a few years since he looked good in the gatefold pictures taken in the early 70's.

I agree that the ultimate goal should not have been to roll Brian out.  It kinda feels like he was essentially "dead" but the doctors (in this case Landy and other enablers/benefiters) injected enough adrenaline into him to keep him "alive" for other folks' personal/professional gain.

I think all involved were willing to take shortcuts to capitalize on Endless Summer and take their group into a new phase.  Unfortunately, you reap what you sow and 15 BO and a subsequent relapse were the result.  Brian has unfortunately had too many users around him who will prop him up as long as he's able to stand and then scratch their heads once he falls.

[The 4th Wilson Bro.]

IMO, any doctor with even a modicum of ethics would not have told Morgan he wanted to stop being her therapist because he was falling in love with her.  He would have stopped the therapy and immediately walked away entirely.

So long as Landy would have "referred her" to another therapist (or better, she would have found her own) there should not have been a problem.  Humans connect for all kinds of reasons.  And it isn't a bad thing, so long as the relationships are clear and there are "boundaries" that separate the two.  No problem if he has a relationship, so long as he isn't her therapist, simultaneously.  Here, one has to give the devil his due.  Here, Landy seems to be in the clear. 

So using information gained in a doctor-patient relationship to snare the same woman puts him in the clear as long as he suspends treatment first? That would be like a medical doctor saying after an examination, "Hey you're kind of hot. I don't want to be your doctor anymore. Let's become lovers instead."

That was exactly my point.  Just failed to get it across as well as you did.  Thanks, John.

[Debbie Keil-Leavitt]

True but I don't think it helped that people always seemed to have this ultimate goal to get Brian making music again ASAP. That should have never been a factor in getting Brian well again.

I don't believe for a second that was Marylin's goal. And it was her who called him. There's no reason not to think she was entirely concerned for his health and the deterioration of their family life. With two daughters in the household, and some of the things that occured, I don't Marylin's plan was different from having her husband's health recovered.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean Marylin and I was following up my earlier point in relation to the second time Landy was employed, sorry for any confusion. I think Marylin was an angel for what she endured.
By 1983 Brian was a good 100 pounds overweight, had a major drug addiction, was hearing the voice of Phil Spector and his dead father in his head and never bathed because he was convinced that the taps would spout acid at him. When he wasn't being dragged off on tour he spent his days in a dogshit filled room, chain smoking and wishing he was dead. He needed to be commited to a Mental Insitution (forcibly if need be) for his own safety.
The fact that he was a rock star should never have had any bearing on his treatment. If that meant sitting out the 80s musically, so be it. Brian should have not been let near a piano for anything other than his own pleasure for a long time. Landy tied composing songs to Brian's treatment and used this to worm his way into Brian's professional life. Only once Brian was well or at least had his problems under control should the possiblity of being a Beach Boy again have even entered into the equation.

And where did you get all of this information?

Which part?

The 2nd part.

[filledeplage]

IMO, any doctor with even a modicum of ethics would not have told Morgan he wanted to stop being her therapist because he was falling in love with her.  He would have stopped the therapy and immediately walked away entirely.

So long as Landy would have "referred her" to another therapist (or better, she would have found her own) there should not have been a problem.  Humans connect for all kinds of reasons.  And it isn't a bad thing, so long as the relationships are clear and there are "boundaries" that separate the two.  No problem if he has a relationship, so long as he isn't her therapist, simultaneously.  Here, one has to give the devil his due.  Here, Landy seems to be in the clear. 

So using information gained in a doctor-patient relationship to snare the same woman puts him in the clear as long as he suspends treatment first? That would be like a medical doctor saying after an examination, "Hey you're kind of hot. I don't want to be your doctor anymore. Let's become lovers instead."

That was exactly my point.  Just failed to get it across as well as you did.  Thanks, John.

But, gentlemen, my impression was that "she" snared "him."  And not the other way around.  I do get what you mean. 
I just looked at the two distinct situations as hypotheticals:  "Therapist to business partner" in what we saw with Brian, as opposed to "Therapist to personal relationship," with the woman.  In one instance Landy was in charge, and in the other the "former patient" seemed to be calling the shots.  Landy was not Johnny Depp. 

[John Malone]

IMO, any doctor with even a modicum of ethics would not have told Morgan he wanted to stop being her therapist because he was falling in love with her.  He would have stopped the therapy and immediately walked away entirely.

So long as Landy would have "referred her" to another therapist (or better, she would have found her own) there should not have been a problem.  Humans connect for all kinds of reasons.  And it isn't a bad thing, so long as the relationships are clear and there are "boundaries" that separate the two.  No problem if he has a relationship, so long as he isn't her therapist, simultaneously.  Here, one has to give the devil his due.  Here, Landy seems to be in the clear. 

So using information gained in a doctor-patient relationship to snare the same woman puts him in the clear as long as he suspends treatment first? That would be like a medical doctor saying after an examination, "Hey you're kind of hot. I don't want to be your doctor anymore. Let's become lovers instead."

That was exactly my point.  Just failed to get it across as well as you did.  Thanks, John.

But, gentlemen, my impression was that "she" snared "him."  And not the other way around.  I do get what you mean. 
I just looked at the two distinct situations as hypotheticals:  "Therapist to business partner" in what we saw with Brian, as opposed to "Therapist to personal relationship," with the woman.  In one instance Landy was in charge, and in the other the "former patient" seemed to be calling the shots.  Landy was not Johnny Depp. 

After watching the "one woman show" it was apparent to me that she couldn't have been calling the shots. She was in therapy for a reason. Probably could still use it.

[the professor]

how did landy die and where is he buried? He got his undergraduate degree at my school.

[Mikie]

October, 1975 - Marilyn Wilson hires Gene Landy to treat Brian. December, 1976 - Landy is fired as Brian's therapist by Steve Love after Landy doubles his fees.  January, 1983 - After a ruse developed by Carl Wilson, Jerry Schilling, John Branca, and Tom Hulett, Brian is fired by The Beach Boys and Landy is re-hired and starts treating Brian again. December, 1992 - Landy is completely out of the picture after a lawsuit.

Mike's Beard said:

"I don't think it helped that people always seemed to have this ultimate goal to get Brian making music again ASAP. That should have never been a factor in getting Brian well again. The fact that he was a rock star should never have had any bearing on his treatment. If that meant sitting out the 80s musically, so be it. Brian should have not been let near a piano for anything other than his own pleasure for a long time. Landy tied composing songs to Brian's treatment and used this to worm his way into Brian's professional life. Only once Brian was well or at least had his problems under control should the possibility of being a Beach Boy again have even entered into the equation".


I strongly believe that Landy did the right thing by getting Brian back on the horse after a few years of being dormant from songwriting, piano and bass playing, singing, recording, and producing music again. Landy got Brian to do all five in a very short period and Brian was productive again in a big way. Granted that at first Brian got his feet wet mostly recording covers for 15 Big Ones, but he was fully involved again in the studio. By July he was touring again. The "Brian's Back" idea came from Stan Love, probably through his brother Mike. The following album (Love You) was practically a Brian solo album and he recorded 16 new tracks under Landy's watch. Daily songwriting was part of Landy's therapy and again I think he did the right thing here. This was not only Brian's livelihood, it was..........Van Dyke Parks once said that "music is Brian Wilson's best friend, lover, everything. On a one-to-one basis, it's the only thing that has never wronged him." So to take that away music from the therapy would have been like taking away his daily exercise and diet regimen. He needed to right that wrong and get outta bed and try it again. Piano playing by itself stimulates both sides of the brain. THAT'S what Brian really needed, in addition to eliminating the drugs and alcohol. Music helped Brian to get healthy again, and it was important that he got back in the saddle immediately in late '75.

Now the second time Landy took over, Brian was 310 pounds, a druggie and alki, and really messed up. Near death. Landy took over and saved Brian's ass. I won't argue or minimize the impact of the downside of Landy's relationship with Brian; it's all true. There was no doubt that Landy went waaaaaayyyy over the line. They gave Landy an inch in early 1983 and he took a mile. He took advantage of everyone, including The Beach Boys and the family. Carl must have felt guilty as hell and was instrumental in ousting Landy through the court system. But sometimes I wonder, if there was a positive thing that came out of all of that, looking at Brian's discography/credits and the great body of work that he accomplished in 1976 and between 1983 and 1992 (Landy's watch) whether he could have pulled that off without the "Doc" stepping in........albeit over his professional boundaries.

[Aum Bop Diddit]

Can't say I approve of what the guy did, but it seems more than likely we would not have had the wonderful renaissance of Brian Wilson for the last 20 (or 30) years if it wasn't for Eugene Landy.  Also Brian was sad when he died.  That should be counted in the tally.

[Mikie]

Can't say I approve of what the guy did, but it seems more than likely we would not have had the wonderful renaissance of Brian Wilson for the last 20 (or 30) years if it wasn't for Eugene Landy.  Also Brian was sad when he died.  That should be counted in the tally.

Yeah, supposedly Brian was "devastated" after hearing the news that Landy croaked from lung cancer.

[elnombre]

People like to divide people into good and bad. Truth is, as anyone who's been around the block will know, everyone you meet will vacillate between the two to varying degrees. Landy's influence on Brian seems more comparable to a drug or alcohol addiction. It began as something needed to get Brian through the day, to help him function and eventually it's grip on him became near fatal and he had to go cold turkey or die.

[Mikie]

Brian Wilson did not go cold turkey after Landy took over in 1975.

[joshferrell]

Somebody needs to understand how to use the board functions (quotes, end quotes, replies, brackets, etc.).  What a mess.

it's the fault of the message board "auto tune" 

[elnombre]

Brian Wilson did not go cold turkey after Landy took over in 1975.

I meant cold turkey from Landy, Landy being the drug Brian needed for a period to get him through and that eventually would have killed him in the metaphor I was going for.

[joshferrell]

for some reason Landy reminds me of one of those weird New Age 70's "self help guru" Hippie type dudes that would have released a bunch of "self Help" books on late night infomercials had he not had Brian and other celebrities to give him money... also yes Dennis would have whooped his ass had he lived, Dennis was NOT stupid, sure his last years were sad with drugs and alcohol  but he may have kept away from Landy because of the Vibes he was getting from him..maybe he feared another "Charles Manson type thing". Which, even though,as far as I know, there wasn't any kind if murder involved, Landy was kind of similar to Manson is some ways with manipulation and a "cult like" way of doing things,,,so I can totally see why Dennis would stay away from him. would he have saved Dennis' life? it's hard to say but my feeling is that Dennis wouldn't have taken any of Landy's crap..

[Ron]

True but I don't think it helped that people always seemed to have this ultimate goal to get Brian making music again ASAP. That should have never been a factor in getting Brian well again.

Not necessarily.  Again, these people (Marilyn, his parents, the band) were amateurs.  When they thought back at what they considered "healthy" Brian, he was one of the world's greatest musicians.  It became synonymous with health!  I don't for a second think any of them had ulterior motives involving making him a hit making machine, it was simpler than that, and in fact, more loving than that.

"Brian's Sad.  I wish he was like he was when he wrote Surfin' USA again"

Is ultimately the sentiment behind it.  It's typical... you see it all the time with families that go through this kind of thing (a family member doing drugs, or having mental illness).  The family ultimately wants to see them back doing what they love, and without a doubt Brian loved making music. 

[Ron]

True but I don't think it helped that people always seemed to have this ultimate goal to get Brian making music again ASAP. That should have never been a factor in getting Brian well again.

Agreed. I think the whole "Brian's back!" campaign was shameful exploitation of someone who was obviously unwell and unfit to be producing music.

... and Mike of all people spoke up against it.  I don't think anybody in the family (including even Mike!) were trying to use Brian for commercial reasons.  They wanted him making good music because they saw that as healthy Brian and they wanted healthy Brian back.  They made lots of mistakes, simplified everything that was going on, enabled him, etc. but they didn't do any of it out of a desire to make more money off of him. 

[Ron]

for some reason Landy reminds me of one of those weird New Age 70's "self help guru" Hippie type dudes that would have released a bunch of "self Help" books on late night infomercials had he not had Brian and other celebrities to give him money... also yes Dennis would have whooped his ass had he lived, Dennis was NOT stupid, sure his last years were sad with drugs and alcohol  but he may have kept away from Landy because of the Vibes he was getting from him..maybe he feared another "Charles Manson type thing". Which, even though,as far as I know, there wasn't any kind if murder involved, Landy was kind of similar to Manson is some ways with manipulation and a "cult like" way of doing things,,,so I can totally see why Dennis would stay away from him. would he have saved Dennis' life? it's hard to say but my feeling is that Dennis wouldn't have taken any of Landy's crap..

There's that, but also Dennis was an addict and until they hit rock bottom there's no way in hell they're going to have anything to do with therapy or a doctor.  Dennis still had money, friends and could live his life as an addict right up until the end. 

Brian on the other hand had his entire family and the record company on his back to get straightened out, when your wife moves a doctor into your fucking house you really don't have much choice but to acknowledge the guy is there...

So I think you're right that Dennis didn't get a good vibe from Landy but he probably wouldn't have got a good vibe from any doctor and was hell bent on doing whatever the hell he wanted to do like most addicts are.  It's a great loss to the music world and his family that he never got the help he needed.

[Mikie]

True but I don't think it helped that people always seemed to have this ultimate goal to get Brian making music again ASAP. That should have never been a factor in getting Brian well again.

Agreed. I think the whole "Brian's back!" campaign was shameful exploitation of someone who was obviously unwell and unfit to be producing music.

... and Mike of all people spoke up against it.  I don't think anybody in the family (including even Mike!) were trying to use Brian for commercial reasons.  They wanted him making good music because they saw that as healthy Brian and they wanted healthy Brian back.  They made lots of mistakes, simplified everything that was going on, enabled him, etc. but they didn't do any of it out of a desire to make more money off of him. 

Right on, Ron.

[SloopJohnnyB]

Brian created the ultimate Beach Boys masterpiece in 'Pet Sounds'. Brian went supernova. Is it possible he creatively peaked at that time? Yes, the drug experimentation, possible mental health issues and the peer pressure  played a part with Brian's lack of creativity or desire to create music post Smile. But tell me what masterpiece Lennon and McCartney created on their own post Beatles? They achieved some success on the charts but nothing they created would ever rival Sgt Peppers or many of their other Beatles albums. Lennon and McCartney peaked with the Beatles. I think George Martin played a big role in that success as well.

I'm sure at the time some would say that forcing Brian to get back in the studio and even on stage was 'good therapy'. Brain makes music. Maybe it was thought that it would help Brian get back to his old self. I think Landy DID save Brian's life but yes, the devil was in the details.

Interesting conversation as always but let's forget about what could have been. Brian appears to be very happy with his wife, children and home life. He's enjoying himself. Nice to see that picture of Brian at the corner store. What kind of pizza do you like, Brian? Who would have thought back in the late 1970's that Brian would be here now in 2015 creating wonderful music while we think about his brothers and what could have been if they were here today. They are missed.

God bless you, Brian. We're looking forward to a wonderful year! Thanks for the music.

[CenturyDeprived]

Maybe this question should have warranted its own thread, but I'm throwing it in here:

I've often been curious about the overlap of the year 1983 with Brian getting cleaned up, simultaneous with Denny's tragic final decline.

I wonder how Denny felt about Brian getting cleaned up the 2nd time around. In 1983, at least, Landy probably didn't seem like as big of a scumbag as he eventually became. Did Brian's drastic 1983 improvement impact Denny in any way, or was Denny too far into his own addictions to make it sink in that he could possibly get better too?

I also wonder if Landy was very specifically trying to keep Brian away from Denny at that time. It would seem like a no-brainer, but I wonder if Denny was being demonized by Landy. We know that as the 80s dragged on, Landy did plenty of brainwashing of getting Brian to resent all the then-living BBs, but I wonder how Denny factored into that during that brief 1-year overlap of Landy II.

I think (?) I've read the idea was possibly floated around by the family that Denny should get helped by Landy, but that it never went anywhere. Did Landy himself ever express interest (or even giving a rat's ass) about the dire need to help his own client's brother? Either in Landy expressing interest in helping Denny himself, or at least in referring him to someone else (if Landy was going to be too busy 24/7 "helping" Brian)? Maybe Landy only was interested in clients who he thought were going to be able to be manipulated, and unless Landy was going to turn into a really hot babe, Landy probably knew any control of Denny wasn't gonna happen.

[Paul J B]

Well in the BS Landy/Brian biography Landy made sure to put something in there about how he was going to SAVE Denny next and obviously ran out of time.

My two cents. I give Landy nearly NO credit in any form. A thousand reputable doctors could have/should have treated Brian. People speculate on what if's here all the time. What if a true doctor, instead of that hack that drugged the hell out of Brian, had helped him.