The Smiley Smile Message Board

I just got to wondering... many have seen the douchey 1991 20/20 (ABC tv show, not the '69 album) interview where Landy looks smug, and doesn't cop to any wrongdoing. But I do wonder... did he ever honestly think he did anything wrong with over prescription and all the other ethically questionable actions during his time with Brian? Maybe looking back, at any point from his removal from Brian's life until his own death in 2006? One would think he'd think maybe he'd gone too far, even if he at one point had good intentions (which, not that I'm defending him in any way, but it seems that he did at least to some twisted degree, at some point. Maybe).

I wonder if there was ever an ounce of self-awareness, even behind closed doors, or if not and he was a pure sociopath. Maybe Alexandra Morgan would be the only one to know.

I seriously doubt it. Did this man have any redeeming qualities?

Was he polite and jovial? No wait, that was someone else.

I suppose my entire premise/question is flawed; trying to understand someone who's actions are that of a sick f*ck is a difficult, if not impossible task. But for whatever reason, I tend to optimistically think that even such people might still have a morsel of self-awareness buried deep down, regardless. I dunno. Maybe not. I doubt Murry or Phil Spector ever thought/think they've done anything wrong either.

Still curious to hear anyone else's thoughts on this (and Alexandra Morgan's thoughts, if she has ever been asked).

Was his son still defending his legacy? I imagine if so he was a fairly charming, sociopathic manipulator. I'm sure he had a line of bullshit or an excuse for every horrible thing he did...

We'll never know, but guys like this usually feel that the ends justify the means.  So if he ever felt bad about drugging Brian, he'd excuse it by saying that ultimately it made Brian better in the long run.  Or if he felt bad about keeping Brian from his family he'd justify it by saying his family were enabling Brian's bad behavior, etc. 

So no I don't think he ever realized he did anything wrong, he probably felt misunderstood right to the end. 

I think the 20/20 interview tells you all you need to know: Sawyer, bless her, asked the questions that needed to be asked and Landy flat out didn't have an answer. Any answer, literally speechless. Someone who was aware what he was doing was terribly, terribly wrong would have several pat, rehearsed responses to trot out. Landy wasn't just out of bullets, he didn't even have a gun.

Exactly.  By not saying ANYTHING during that interview and simply not answering Diane's "straight to the point" questions...he shot himself in the head.   He loved all of the attention he thought he was getting...thinking, "I'm a celebrity now!"  But Diane did her homework and dropped many a BOMB on him.  From that moment on Landy could not stop the implosion.  It all crumbled around him and very quickly.  He clearly went over the line so many times that even HE thought he was  Brian's Saviour.  And because of this, he thought he could get away with anything he wanted.   

Dogbone

Indeed it did - the conservator lawsuit had already been instigated by Carl, Audree, Carnie & Wendy (5/7/91), the show was aired, I think , 10/10/91 and the lawsuit was settled out of court on 12/13/91, with the entire relationship between Landy & Brian - professional, musical and, I guess, personal - dissolved 1/1/92. I believe that was the day, or very shortly thereafter, that Brian called Andy Paley and asked him to "come on over, I can do what I like now".

Of course, Landy pretty much ignored the agreement - his son and Kevin Leslie remained in Brian's employ - and eventually had to be hit with an official restraining order in December 1992, whereupon he buggered off to Hawaii.

Landy strikes me as having one of those narcissistic and hyper-manipulative personalities that goes hand in hand with having something of a dis-associative personality too. People who are that good at manipulating others are often also pretty good at hiding their true self from their self...like playing the innocent every time they look in the mirror.

I can tell you this from my chat with Alexandra Morgan, who officially became Landy's wife before his death, that they ended their years together feeling victimized by their association with Brian Wilson and his family.

Seems more than just a little 'nervy'.  Why Howie?  Or did she explain?

Landy wasn't so bad really.  He had a more healthy influence on Brian than Joe Thomas does.

.

Cry me a river.

Maybe he/they should have been held right off the bat in contempt...a few days getting "three squares" in a "highly supervised setting" at the outset of the violations might have given them a lesson in Reading comprehension.  What unbridled arrogance. 

Too bad it too so long. 

That's a pretty silly thing to say and a little offensive.  Landy was a disgrace to the medical profession by personally entering his patient's life, handling his money, and giving him drugs he probably didn't have a proper license to prescribe, altering his mental state in a way that was dangerous.  

The worst thing Joe Thomas did was he might have put some auto tune on Brian's voice.  Come on, Joe Thomas might not be the greatest producer or songwriter in the world but he certainly doesn't deserve to be compared to Landy, that's just mean.

Agree with Rocky 100%. Some perspective, please!

"Remorse for what? I didn't kill anyone! "

Oh wait, that was another villian in the Beach Boys story.

Surely the credits on the reissue of BW88 tell part of the story ...

A lot of good points raised in this thread, but one of the things that makes me think everything was carefully, consciously planned by Landy was Brian's will - modified so Landy would get pretty much everything. That's not something you improvise. That's something you really have to think about.

I didn't know Alexandra Morgan had even been interviewed.  Interesting.  Am I surprised that they believed that THEY were the victims?  Not at all.  It's how those people roll.  What would have been shocking is if they admitted to any of the horrors they inflicted.  It's amazing how the most destructive people somehow always justify their hideous behavior to themselves and a few gullible others.

That may just be the dumbest post I've ever seen here.  And that is saying a lot.

"Symptoms
A person with antisocial personality disorder may:

Be able to act witty and charming
Be good at flattery and manipulating other people's emotions
Break the law repeatedly
Disregard the safety of self and others
Have problems with substance abuse
Lie, steal, and fight often
Not show guilt or remorse
Often be angry or arrogant"

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000921.htm

It also implies that Landy was considering outliving Brian.

Ya must be joking.

What was Landy's will at the time? Who was to be his heir?

Assuming you're not just saying this to be "amusing", then I have to say this is the single dumbest post I've ever seen in all my years posting on BB forums. You patently don't have the first, least notion of the damage Landy did to Brian. Fact is, he damn near killed him. If it wasn't for the intervention of a small cadre of concerned fans - one of whom posts here - he would have succeeded. Never, ever say something so stupid again.

I'm sure they did... but did they ever ask themselves why people felt that way ? I'd dearly love to see this interview published.

Probably not Brian... :(

His son Evan?

I can get defending Mike Love, at least he can pull off bass vocals and do some excellent pointing.

 But LANDY!!?!? Eugene Landy? Gene "Revoked License" Landy? The coke-snorting hypocrite who tried to steal BW's estate?

Wow. I know we poke fun at the mullet, but he's just a beefy guy with some bad taste in production...

Did AGD guest write your post?

I hear a lot of bad mouthing of Joe Thomas on this board which i personally think is bullshit. In a sense what you are implying is that Brian has no taste in production and that Brian doesn't know what he is doing by working with Thomas. It's kind of hard to have it both ways; you love Brian , love his music but think that his current producer is somewhat talentless. I guess that would make Brian a bad judge of talent and someone who really doesn't know what he wants as far as the production of his music goes.

 ;D

C50 Live album. Mike sounds like Megatron using an electrolarynx on half the songs. The crowd noise doesn't even sound real (or its mixed in the most peculiar way possible). Brian will sound like a god on one song, then the next it sounds like he's using the T-Pain auto-tune app. The album didn't have to sound like that, yet it does. For that I blame Joe.

That being said, I liked the way most of TWGMTR sounded, and Brian has created some of his best songs working with Joe. Some of the bad mouthing he kinda deserves, some of it he doesn't.

Errr... Thomas is a co-producer. And Brian's a big guy who calls his own shots.

In time, Andrew.

I believe others have established that Joe Thomas does not really have a "sound" of his own as other projects he has produced do not have the same "gloss" on them. So hard to say how much credit or blame should be assigned to him.

Regardless, producing a record in a way some deem poor is not in the same realm as what Landy did.

I would guess the autotune has much more to do with Thomas (or other ancillary engineers) than Brian. I wouldn’t be surprised if Brian hasn’t much concerned himself to any large extent with any of the live albums he has put out (or the sound on live DVD/BD).

But it’s merely a bad artistic decision. Like the guy who directed a bunch of McCartney live videos by hyper-cutting to a different shot every half second and peppered the videos with more audience shots than stage shots. Maybe McCartney was like “oh yeah, that’s great”, or maybe he didn’t closely scrutinize it. Either way, it’s all just frustrating artistic decisions. Joe Thomas isn’t freaking Landy folks. Even at Thomas peak of oboes and “Sade” production, he wasn’t anything like Landy.

For the BB’s on C50, there are relatively easy ways to piece together a more complete, autotune-less album. Take a few of the publicly aired shows (Japan, that UK show, etc.), fill in the gaps with the C50 live album where required, and then some audience recordings, and you have a decent 61-track live set. Sure, it would be much easier if the BB’s would just release the effing Royal Albert Hall show (or piece together that 61-song setlist from whatever shows on the tour).

In any event, we as fans have to take a few hits to get something good. I doubt C50 (tour or album) would have happened had Thomas not pushed the thing along. I’d rather have a solid studio album, a couple of decent live Blu-rays, an awesome tour, and an iffy-sounding live album, than the alternative of nothing.

I’m also not 100% convinced Thomas is solely responsible for the autotune stuff. If you listen to the numerous PBS Soundstage shows he has directed and produced, they sound fine. The Tom Petty “Soundstage” Blu-ray sounds great. Who knows, maybe the C50 live album got farmed out to someone else, even if Brian and Joe’s name are on it. Even the C50 Blu-rays don’t sound as bad.

But again to reiterate, Thomas ain’t Landy, personally or sonically. Even back when I kind of loathed the production on “Imagination”, Thomas always struck me as a well-meaning (if misguided taste-wise sometimes, e.g. “the sexy Sade sound”) guy who appreciated Brian and was able to massage that tough line between not being a yes-man but also not taking over everything. The number of guys who Brian feels comfortable writing and producing and recording around, and who can also yield actual results with Brian, seem to be relatively few in number.

If anything, whether by choice or be design, Thomas’ involvement since 2012 (or a few years prior) has struck me as a case where Thomas learned some valuable lessons from the 1998 era. He’s much more low-key (publically) than he was in 1998. No Thomas interviews in the BB C50 documentaries, no co-production credit, no Thomas and Steve Dahl touring with the band, and the Kenny G production style has been toned down quite a bit too (which may also simply be a concession in light of it not being 1998 anymore in terms of music industry trends/tastes). As I’ve mentioned before, how many photos exist of Joe Thomas with Brian (and/or other BB’s) since 2012? I think there was one from the 2013 tour with Joe and the “BAD” lineup. That’s the only one I recall. He also hasn’t given many print interviews either. By the accounts of some including Ray Lawlor, Thomas wasn’t even always present when Brian cut stuff for the new album.

Can't deny that. But I guarantee that Brian wasn't the one meticulously using protools to screw with every little note note on the album. My point still stands, Joe deserves some of the flack thrown his way (definitely not this Landy accusation though).

Most excellent.

I don't know. I think that if we are willing to accept (as I am) that Brian makes his own choices and doesn't do anything he doesn't want to, it's absurd to think that the autotune on the albums he produces is not endorsed by him.

Albums? We're talking about the C50 Live album, and I've already agreed that the blame rests on both producers.

Sigh...

Another great discussion derailed.

Trolled, more like...

I was at a Beach Boys convention with Landy in the early 90's. Landy was standing off to the side quiet and just observing. I walked up to him and thanked him for saving Brian's life and for "letting Brian out of his cage" for the event. I walked away and Landy was still standing by himself a good 10 minutes later. Musta been 100 people there and nobody was even acknowledging him.

Then I had a few beers with Steve McParland, Sean McCreavy, and other fans in the know and found out WHY nobody was talking to Landy. Man, did I feel out of touch at that point!

Check out the clip where Diane Sawyer got Landy for an interview. She asked a point blank question and Landy sat there looking like a deer in the headlights for what seemed like forever and couldn't answer.  Brian must have been hyped up on something as his face contorts like Mr. Ed when he talks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-vhRkfFgj8

Did we find out who stole the Sweet Insanity master tapes?   :police: :police:

And that's the most disturbing part of all, that Landy's ultimate goal may have been to kill off Brian to inherit his estate.

Landy had no business administering those meds to Brian.  Landy was a psychologist.  Not a psychiatrist.  He knew better.   And he must have finally sorted that  out when he was busted by his licensure board.  He got into a dual relationship with a patient in a huge way using his influence to control the patients finances and day to day life.  this would be a huge ethical violation in any state of the USA according to the American Psychological Association.  Not even Landy's "24 hour therapy" could find a way around that.  I knew this was way out of line when the first BW solo lp came out with Landy's name all over it.  

Discussing Joe Thomas on this thread is stupid.

Knowing what you know now, do you wish you could go back in time to that moment and spit in the f*cker's face?

Don't recall autotone on 'Brian Wilson'...you know the FIRST solo album ... back when Landy was around.  Thanks for getting this thread back on topic. :hat

As there hasn't been a response to my querie YET...[nudging Howie again with a "Why...Or did she explain?"]  I only wish the Wilson family had come in and made the Landy family's life way, WAY worse...a whole LOT sooner.  Removing false credits from the music and album was small potatos wasn't it WS?

I think something called Melodyne was used to basically do what Autotune does, on the 88 album.

I heard that something was used on Orange Crate Art. If it was, the final product was still unfortunately pretty pitchy.

why do so many threads here digress into auto tune  discussions?   

Tell you the truth I still have mixed feelings about it. If anything positive came out of Brian's relationship with Landy, it's that he did save his live. Literally saved his life, but in the mean time the result of the unnecessary and over-prescribed drugs which Landy gave to Brian will live in his brain 'till his dying day. But I also believe that Landy got Brian into physical and mental shape to write songs again. And even though Landy and his wife "contributed" to many of them, I know Brian wrote many on his own. I mean, they wrote a BOATLOAD of songs together, and it took a well-seasoned talented songwriter like Brian to write all those melodies and Landy (and Alexandria) might have contributed lyrics, but there's no way Landy had the talent and know-how to write that great music during the 80's & 90's. I'm not so sure Brian would have had that same daily regimen of writing songs as part of his therapy from anyone else, including a professional doctor. And the physical shape - some say he looked sickly on the cover of Pulse magazine, but man what exercise Landy put the man through to look like that after so much self abuse with food. Unarguably, Landy went overboard and got in the way of the '88 album and the Sweet Insanity album and later the Usher and Paley sessions, but I'm not sure Brian wouldn't have even gotten to the solo album in 1988 without the encouragement and push from Landy. Landy pushed hard in support of Brian like Murry did, then eventually over-stepped his boundries (like Murry did) both for their self gratification. They got something out of it. Before Landy got hold of Brian, Brian was drinking, smoking, and snorting hog rails like there was no tomorrow, and if weren't for Landy and his unorthadox ways, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about Brian Wilson being here tomorrow.

I dunno. Does saving Brian's life outweigh the bad things that Landy did? Could any doctor worth his weight in gold have done the same thing Landy did? Could any doctor have had complete success the first time, without  having to come back to help the patient a second time? What did it take to do that? YOU make the call.

I think Wilson would agree with you.  He doesn't seem to talk about Landy anymore...

I read an interview with Brian a few years ago where he was asked about Landy and Brian said he misses him and wished he could talk to him.

So...what you said to Landy was accurate Mikie.  But in saving Brian's life...and at least stalling the plunge 'til a better doctor figured out Brian's real situation...it would seem that Landy decided that Brian owed him his life.  False illusions of grandeur.  Landy needed a doctor too.  The wrong people were running the asylum.  And the costs?  In every sense the costs were way too heavy.

While it's easy to all-knowingly look back and crap on Landy...and he does/did deserve it...let's not lose sight of what had become of Brian BEFORE Landy ever entered into the picture...what the causes might have been...and who in and outside of the inner circle shared some degree of responsibility.  It isn't like Landy made Brian ill.  That was a pre-existing fact.  The 'guy' just kind of ended up keeping Brian floating in limbo.  And he benefitted greatly [and illegally] from doing so until he got caught.

Just pissing on Eugene is the easy and way too simple way out of this chapter.  He's only one of the 'bad guys'.
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By the way Mikie...I read that same article.  ONLY Brian would know what Landy really did for him deep down inside the confines of his innermost and private thoughts and recollections.  None of us will know...nor, I wouldn't think, can we even really guess.

Wonder what would've happened, if say Landy was the doc who would've died in a rock climbing accident. Say around 1986 or so.

That way, Brian is rehabilitated with massive weight loss and off street drugs before the real, deep damage and sick and unethical crapola by Landy really started in earnest.

I suppose Landy would be thought of *relatively* more highly in that scenario in the history books. As much of a creep as Landy was, I do wonder the same things as you, Mikie. Not quite sure anyone else (or anyone else readily available/on the radar of the Wilson family) would've been able to save him at the time in the early 80s.

Does anyone have any pictures of the man after his estrangement from BW?

I wonder if his mullet wilted almost instantly after BW left.

Thomas seems to be an enabler, while Landy became a disabler.

Many thanks for posting this Mikie. It is quite something.

Interesting, Mikie. Hard to tell if he did more harm than good, or if other doctors (namely, those at UCLA) could have accomplished better results without the side effects. One point of what you say reminds me of the Wilson Project book, when Usher says that Landy was worse than Murry because at least the latter had Brian's best interest in mind.

I own the Wilson Project book after having bought it in 2011 after reading AGD's comments about it. What does it say about the relationship between BW and DrL? Have you been aware of a situation of elder abuse (isolation, exploitation, fear for financial motives)? I saw it in my family years ago. The Wilson/Landy situation was exactly the same thing. Except, instead of a vulnerable senior citizen, it was a vulnerable person with psychiatric problems.  The contents within those pages will make you shudder in disgust.

I am also reminded that BW's passive/aggressive behavior can also play an unhealthy role. The Landy/Wilson partnership was likely a co-dependent one to a degree...in that BW enjoyed Landy's ability to screen unwanted confrontations and interactions.  But again, someone with Landy's background and training should have spotted that. In the end, it was hubris and greed that brought down the good doctor. But, Gary Usher also share some of the credit for bringing this ugly 1986-1987 period to light. I'm glad that Melinda Wilson was able to help wrestle it all to a finish in late 1991.

We like to couch the whole Beach Boys saga in "Heroes and Villains" terms. We even take up camps and argue for our favorites. I have favorite and least favorite members of the band, but I see all of them as talented but flawed individuals.  Maybe Cousin Mike is a bit of a jerk, but he kept the band on the road when Brian retreated and genuinely loves the music he made with Cousin Bri… and he probably loves Cousin Bri.  From a distance. Daddy Murry was an abusive father who would probably be in jail in this day and age. But in his own twisted way, he was doing what he thought was best for his sons by pushing them hard. None of these people are villains, to me.

The one person, in all of this, that I cannot muster up the slightest degree of empathy for is Eugene Landy. Oh, but he saved Brian's life! Sure, but any number of capable and decent psychiatric doctors could have done the same.  And a decent doctor would have realized that he was in a position of influence over a vulnerable patient, and would have respected that position enough not to do harm. But Landy wasn't a decent doctor. He didn't respect the position he was in. Not only did he NOT protect his patient, but he imprisoned him,  abused him, manipulated him, stole from him, drugged him and drug him through hell, and then, when that wasn't enough, he creatively, emotionally and spiritually raped that patient.

But, he saved Brian's life! Sure. As any talented doctor would. And, for his own moment of reflected glory, he nearly destroyed him, again. That makes him the villain in my book.

1. Every Brian Wilson fan should read the Wilson Project book(s) by S. McParland. Very enlightening about the Wilson/Landy relationship up to about 1990/'91.

2. The doctor who started to help Brian before falling to his death. Very unfortunate. What kind of progress would have been made there we'll never know.

3. I often wonder what woulda/coulda happened with those UCLA doctors. Melinda Wilson brought it up during the Larry King interview and rightfully so. UCLA is a hop, skip, and a backflip from Bellagio Road in Bel-Aire. Marilyn has been defended. "She was too young to understand Brian's mental condition". And....."Brian's mental condition was not fully understood by the family and general public in the late 60's/early '70's." But something was very obviously wrong, you know? Don't you think doctors at one of the most prestigious medicals schools in the United States would have a clue? I believe so. But who am I to second-guess Brian's wife?

Until finally Marilyn decided it was time to call Landy in late 1975. And Landy came over and coaxed Brian out of his dark closet. And even then, Brian was still sneaking large amounts of coke under Landy's nose during his first watch.

We can be thankful that Brian was born a decade later as if he had shown the same type of behavior in an earlier time period, he might have been lobotomized.  Mental health has come a long way in the past 60 years or so.  And even had he still been born when he was but hadn't been as high profile, he might have never recovered the way he has.  It's sad when you think about all the really terrible things he had been through.  I'm really glad he's still with us and that he's healthy.  It's such an incredible story.

The video of this interview is down...   :(  Could someone post it back up on YouTube?

I often wonder if Carl ever regretted bringing Landy back into Brian's life? I guess the family thought "nothing else has worked, so let's bring Landy back"...and originally it was kind of implied that after 2..3....4 years...how many years?...that Brian would have his independence. At some point it became clear that Landy was never going to leave, and finally legal action was taken.  I still think the stress and strain of this situation took a few years off Carl's life.

What a striking observation.  I never thought of that!

Think about that for a minute.  When Landy did that, he had it in his head that Brian would eventually die, and Landy would get the money out of all of it...

Guess Brian got the last laugh there.

Melinda stated in an interview back around the time Landy died that Brian still feared (before Landy died) that Landy would show up at his door and hurt him in some way.  According to her Brian was terrified of him and didn't want to say anything bad about him, for fear of retaliation.

Any team of decent, professional doctors could have done what Landy achieved without glomming their way into the person's life the way he did.
Yes it's easy to criticise now but in the early 80s it seems Brian's family were unwilling to face the ugly truth in that he needed to be commited. Getting Landy back in was the 'quick fix' solution. Landy got Brian off the coke, slimmed him down and got him writing & recording again. Alas, he also turned Brian into his own personal zombie and human cash cow, stripping Brian of his ability to think for himself and making him a human puppet for Landy's own selfish needs and desires. And by the end of his reign Brian was so hopped up on perscription drugs he'd already suffered a mini stroke and was close to having one that would have (a) killed him or (b) reduced him to a vegetable. Just so Landy could keep him under his control.

You have to think, who were the major players in all of this at the time?  I don't know much about Marilyn but what kind of training in psychiatry did she have?  Not much I would assume.  I would also assume that Carl and Brian's parents most certainly didn't know anything about it.

They probably had somebody they trusted suggest Dr. Landy to them and they thought he was a doctor so he'll take care of it.

Really, my family wouldn't be able to do any better... and we're 35 years down the line from where the Wilsons were way back then.  These psychological issues aren't easily treated, and it's hard for a family dealing with something like that to even know what to do or who to work with. 

The blame in all of this has to go back to Landy in any scenario, he did demonstrably unethical things regarding his patient.  Brian's family did what most families would do even today but especially back then: make a bunch of mistakes, enable him, trust doctors who may or may not know what they're doing, get disgusted with the whole situation, ignore the situation, etc. 

True but I don't think it helped that people always seemed to have this ultimate goal to get Brian making music again ASAP. That should have never been a factor in getting Brian well again.

I think it was legitimate to get him active again, doing what he did best and thus giving him artistic fulfilment and emotional expression.

Not so legitimate to expect and exert pressure on him for commercial hit records.

Agreed. I think the whole "Brian's back!" campaign was shameful exploitation of someone who was obviously unwell and unfit to be producing music.

To answer the original question, no I don't think so. As someone else stated, Landy strikes me as a complete sociopath. Just completely manipulative, ego-driven and ruthless, but also strangely disassociated from himself, lacking self-awareness or shame. It's hard to explain but after you've lived with or been in constant contact with an honest to god sociopath you know exactly what I mean. My ex-roommate struck me in the same way and opened my eyes to the fact that there are some really scary people out there. Landy was just one of those people who picked a profession that allowed him to exert complete control over others, and was lucky enough to be given a patient with vast amounts of money, fame and connections to take advantage of. It's like a real-life horror story, what happened. Completely inappropriate that someone in this thread would make light of such a thing.

Aside from the fact that Eugene Landy saved Brian's life in the short term, he was a fucking psycho, and likely never thought he did anything wrong when it came to the "handling" of Brian Wilson.


He suffered from a mental illness, albeit a different one, (I'm not the armchair psychological doctor type to be able to say which one) just as much as Brian did.

There are special places in death hell reserved for whacked out egomaniacs like Eugene Landy and if there's an afterlife, he's going to be suffering eternally for the mental and physical damage Brian Wilson had to endure because of him.....


Rot in hell, Eugene Landy, and may your wretched DNA be wiped from this planet before it tries to brainwash again.

I don't believe for a second that was Marylin's goal. And it was her who called him. There's no reason not to think she was entirely concerned for his health and the deterioration of their family life. With two daughters in the household, and some of the things that occured, I don't Marylin's plan was different from having her husband's health recovered.

I assumed he meant Carl and the Boys.

I agree, I think Marilyn was a sweet woman with genuine concern for Brian and their kids. Her only crime was marrying young and getting in way over her head.

Yeah. I think his brothers and group probably felt that being fully involved with music would be healthy for him and good for his recovery. I don't think they were entirely misled. Brian's well-being these last couple of decades depends on many factors, to be sure, but music-making is among the most important. I think we've heard Melinda stress how important the touring and other activities have been for Brian. So I don't think the core of that idea (i.e. "bringing him back will be good for him") was any wrong. In any case, it was a matter of timing and exectution.

Brains is Brian with the A and the I reversed, and Genius is obvious... Make of that what you will.

In other news, I found out what Alexandra Morgan's been up to. A one-woman show called 'Sexagenarian'. https://vimeo.com/120994523 (http://imageshack.com/a/img538/6605/HII3uy.jpg) Still quite gorgeous, if i do say so myself

Yikes. Watch the segment from about :45 to :51, and you'll find the good doctor to be even creepier. After Alexandra admitted to Eugene in therapy that she had sex with a producer in exchange for Broadway tickets, he grew enraged and left the room. He returned a few minutes later with a proposition: terminate therapy and become lovers for 30 days. He said he could no longer be her therapist because he was falling in love with her.

Devoid of ANY ethics, despite whatever emotional turmoil he was causing someone else. And, by the way, Ms. Morgan seems a few slices of bread short of a loaf.

Sorry to confuse. I meant 45:00 to 50:00.

Because a small cadre of bores can't handle the fact that the effects and techniques used to record a bunch of 70+ year olds in 2015 are different than the ones used to record a bunch of 20 somethings 5 decades ago and feel the need to bring this up at every possible opportunity as if the music industry is going to adjust to their whims.

[/quote]
Yikes. Watch the segment from about :45 to :51, and you'll find the good doctor to be even creepier. After Alexandra admitted to Eugene in therapy that she had sex with a producer in exchange for Broadway tickets, he grew enraged and left the room. He returned a few minutes later with a proposition: terminate therapy and become lovers for 30 days. He said he could no longer be her therapist because he was falling in love with her.

Devoid of ANY ethics, despite whatever emotional turmoil he was causing someone else. And, by the way, Ms. Morgan seems a few slices of bread short of a loaf.
[/quote]

This indicates Landy "did" have ethics training.  If  Landy felt compelled to terminate his "therapy" with AM, then, it should have followed that at the first insinuation of Landy with Brian in a "music business relationship," he (Landy) should have been equally compelled to "terminate" that therapy relationship. 

Landy wasn't ignorant of the line of demarcation, so he couldn't "play dumb" but he was inconsistent with his personal application of his professional ethics requirements. He was "ethical" when he felt like it.

Yikes. Watch the segment from about :45 to :51, and you'll find the good doctor to be even creepier. After Alexandra admitted to Eugene in therapy that she had sex with a producer in exchange for Broadway tickets, he grew enraged and left the room. He returned a few minutes later with a proposition: terminate therapy and become lovers for 30 days. He said he could no longer be her therapist because he was falling in love with her.

Devoid of ANY ethics, despite whatever emotional turmoil he was causing someone else. And, by the way, Ms. Morgan seems a few slices of bread short of a loaf.
[/quote]

This indicates Landy "did" have ethics training.  If  Landy felt compelled to terminate his "therapy" with AM, then, it should have followed that at the first insinuation of Landy with Brian in a "music business relationship," he (Landy) should have been equally compelled to "terminate" that therapy relationship. 

Landy wasn't ignorant of the line of demarcation, so he couldn't "play dumb" but he was inconsistent with his personal application of his professional ethics requirements. He was "ethical" when he felt like it.
[/quote]

I think we agree. At least it sounds like it.

Being devoid of ethics means that, despite having ethics training, one chooses to ignore it. Ethics is much more than compliance. Just because it's technically compliant to terminate therapy before beginning a relationship doesn't mean it's ethical. This behavior can still cause emotional damage to the patient.

But, in the AM case, it sounds to me like the damage was already done, and the good doctor found her to be easy prey.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean Marylin and I was following up my earlier point in relation to the second time Landy was employed, sorry for any confusion. I think Marylin was an angel for what she endured.
By 1983 Brian was a good 100 pounds overweight, had a major drug addiction, was hearing the voice of Phil Spector and his dead father in his head and never bathed because he was convinced that the taps would spout acid at him. When he wasn't being dragged off on tour he spent his days in a dogshit filled room, chain smoking and wishing he was dead. He needed to be commited to a Mental Insitution (forcibly if need be) for his own safety.
The fact that he was a rock star should never have had any bearing on his treatment. If that meant sitting out the 80s musically, so be it. Brian should have not been let near a piano for anything other than his own pleasure for a long time. Landy tied composing songs to Brian's treatment and used this to worm his way into Brian's professional life. Only once Brian was well or at least had his problems under control should the possiblity of being a Beach Boy again have even entered into the equation.

This indicates Landy "did" have ethics training.  If  Landy felt compelled to terminate his "therapy" with AM, then, it should have followed that at the first insinuation of Landy with Brian in a "music business relationship," he (Landy) should have been equally compelled to "terminate" that therapy relationship. 

Landy wasn't ignorant of the line of demarcation, so he couldn't "play dumb" but he was inconsistent with his personal application of his professional ethics requirements. He was "ethical" when he felt like it.
[/quote]

I think we agree. At least it sounds like it.

Being devoid of ethics means that, despite having ethics training, one chooses to ignore it. Ethics is much more than compliance. Just because it's technically compliant to terminate therapy before beginning a relationship doesn't mean it's ethical. This behavior can still cause emotional damage to the patient.

But, in the AM case, it sounds to me like the damage was already done, and the good doctor found her to be easy prey.
[/quote]
John - I think we do agree. Of course I only know what I read that is credible, and I didn't know how much ethical training. Psychologists would have gotten when Landy got his training.  Now, it is more heavily taught and monitored.  Landy was a predator.  I hadn't seen the Sawyer interview for a long time.  But that he cut off his "therapy" relationship right away with AM, makes me impressed that he "mechanically" applied the ethical standards.  

Landy should have done the same with Brian, the second he crossed the line. It wasn't a gray area.  Landy absolutely knew where the line was, and cutting Brian off from his family (and disparaging them publicly) impresses me that he was threatened by transparency.  Reading that he wasn't an M.D. dispensing those meds is mind boggling.

Somebody needs to understand how to use the board functions (quotes, end quotes, replies, brackets, etc.).  What a mess.

Two questions:

Is Alexandra Morgan the only female lyrical collaborator that Brian ever worked with (credited on original BW/BB material)? Excepting The Honeys; I'm referring to material released under the BW/BB banner.

And is the audience guy at 0:43 secretly a BB fan doing a tribute to the infamous Wendy cough?

This continued into the early 90's and may even continue to this day. Watch the Sawyer interview and Brian mentions hearing voices and seeing the Devil in the shower head. Schizophrenia. Paranoia, big destroya.

IMO, any doctor with even a modicum of ethics would not have told Morgan he wanted to stop being her therapist because he was falling in love with her.  He would have stopped the therapy and immediately walked away entirely.

And where did you get all of this information?

I feel like if Denny had lived, and had sobered up even somewhat, that he might have gone to find Brian and might have tried to kick the sh*t out of Landy for taking advantage of his bro.

Which part?

A couple of people have brought up what I was thinking as I started to read this thread: One of the great "what ifs" in BW/BB history is what if Dr. Steve Schwartz hadn't been killed in 1977. It seemed like Brian was doing well with him. Does anyone "in the know" know that for sure.

Imagine what could have been if 1977 Brian had an ETHICAL doctor to help him work through his issues.

So long as Landy would have "referred her" to another therapist (or better, she would have found her own) there should not have been a problem.  Humans connect for all kinds of reasons.  And it isn't a bad thing, so long as the relationships are clear and there are "boundaries" that separate the two.  No problem if he has a relationship, so long as he isn't her therapist, simultaneously.  Here, one has to give the devil his due.  Here, Landy seems to be in the clear. 

If that video above is correct that this is the same Alexandra Morgan we're talking about, then I think she's also been an actress in a bunch of obscure 70s films. According to these pics - she looks the same just older...

http://www.aveleyman.com/ActorCredit.aspx?ActorID=68493
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alexandra-Morgan-VINTAGE-Photo-First-Nudie-Musical-/300316632053

So using information gained in a doctor-patient relationship to snare the same woman puts him in the clear as long as he suspends treatment first? That would be like a medical doctor saying after an examination, "Hey you're kind of hot. I don't want to be your doctor anymore. Let's become lovers instead."

Good point. I can't imagine Dennis, of all people, would have allowed Brian to have been taken advantage of for so long. Just one more of the many reasons why Dennis went way too early.

Dennis had his own problems. They tried to set him up with Landy and no dice. It was hard to get Dennis to sit still with anyone related to doctors and therapy and hospitalization. After 1977, forget soliciting Dennis' help with getting Landy out of the picture.

Excellent point. I wasn't thinking of that potentially sinister scenario, of his using information gathered from therapy sessions to "hit on" her, but was thinking only whether his or their "freedom of association" and "pursuit of happiness" would have been precluded by the former therapist-patient relationship, once the "professional relationship" had terminated, either with her getting a new therapist or ceasing therapy with Landy.  

Neither can be precluded from a personal relationship if there is no professional relationship going on at the time.  

That might be a good "general" concept to follow, if it is done, "in good faith."  The issue with Landy is that he didn't appear to have acted "in good faith."

She was in an episode of Baywatch, apparently.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0604462/

How weird it would've been if the episode ever aired in a back-to-back block with the Beach Boys' Baywatch ep.

I remember buying 15 Big Ones on vinyl several years ago after only being a fan for a handful of years. I was familiar with the back story and the whole "lying in bed" mythology, but I had the Shut Down Vol. 2 image of Brian in my head for the most part.  I did a double take seeing the disheveled, overweight man he had become in just a few years since he looked good in the gatefold pictures taken in the early 70's.

I agree that the ultimate goal should not have been to roll Brian out.  It kinda feels like he was essentially "dead" but the doctors (in this case Landy and other enablers/benefiters) injected enough adrenaline into him to keep him "alive" for other folks' personal/professional gain.

I think all involved were willing to take shortcuts to capitalize on Endless Summer and take their group into a new phase.  Unfortunately, you reap what you sow and 15 BO and a subsequent relapse were the result.  Brian has unfortunately had too many users around him who will prop him up as long as he's able to stand and then scratch their heads once he falls.

That was exactly my point.  Just failed to get it across as well as you did.  Thanks, John.

The 2nd part.

But, gentlemen, my impression was that "she" snared "him."  And not the other way around.  I do get what you mean. 
I just looked at the two distinct situations as hypotheticals:  "Therapist to business partner" in what we saw with Brian, as opposed to "Therapist to personal relationship," with the woman.  In one instance Landy was in charge, and in the other the "former patient" seemed to be calling the shots.  Landy was not Johnny Depp.  :lol

After watching the "one woman show" it was apparent to me that she couldn't have been calling the shots. She was in therapy for a reason. Probably could still use it.

how did landy die and where is he buried? He got his undergraduate degree at my school.

October, 1975 - Marilyn Wilson hires Gene Landy to treat Brian. December, 1976 - Landy is fired as Brian's therapist by Steve Love after Landy doubles his fees.  January, 1983 - After a ruse developed by Carl Wilson, Jerry Schilling, John Branca, and Tom Hulett, Brian is fired by The Beach Boys and Landy is re-hired and starts treating Brian again. December, 1992 - Landy is completely out of the picture after a lawsuit.

Mike's Beard said:

"I don't think it helped that people always seemed to have this ultimate goal to get Brian making music again ASAP. That should have never been a factor in getting Brian well again. The fact that he was a rock star should never have had any bearing on his treatment. If that meant sitting out the 80s musically, so be it. Brian should have not been let near a piano for anything other than his own pleasure for a long time. Landy tied composing songs to Brian's treatment and used this to worm his way into Brian's professional life. Only once Brian was well or at least had his problems under control should the possibility of being a Beach Boy again have even entered into the equation".


I strongly believe that Landy did the right thing by getting Brian back on the horse after a few years of being dormant from songwriting, piano and bass playing, singing, recording, and producing music again. Landy got Brian to do all five in a very short period and Brian was productive again in a big way. Granted that at first Brian got his feet wet mostly recording covers for 15 Big Ones, but he was fully involved again in the studio. By July he was touring again. The "Brian's Back" idea came from Stan Love, probably through his brother Mike. The following album (Love You) was practically a Brian solo album and he recorded 16 new tracks under Landy's watch. Daily songwriting was part of Landy's therapy and again I think he did the right thing here. This was not only Brian's livelihood, it was..........Van Dyke Parks once said that "music is Brian Wilson's best friend, lover, everything. On a one-to-one basis, it's the only thing that has never wronged him." So to take that away music from the therapy would have been like taking away his daily exercise and diet regimen. He needed to right that wrong and get outta bed and try it again. Piano playing by itself stimulates both sides of the brain. THAT'S what Brian really needed, in addition to eliminating the drugs and alcohol. Music helped Brian to get healthy again, and it was important that he got back in the saddle immediately in late '75.

Now the second time Landy took over, Brian was 310 pounds, a druggie and alki, and really messed up. Near death. Landy took over and saved Brian's ass. I won't argue or minimize the impact of the downside of Landy's relationship with Brian; it's all true. There was no doubt that Landy went waaaaaayyyy over the line. They gave Landy an inch in early 1983 and he took a mile. He took advantage of everyone, including The Beach Boys and the family. Carl must have felt guilty as hell and was instrumental in ousting Landy through the court system. But sometimes I wonder, if there was a positive thing that came out of all of that, looking at Brian's discography/credits and the great body of work that he accomplished in 1976 and between 1983 and 1992 (Landy's watch) whether he could have pulled that off without the "Doc" stepping in........albeit over his professional boundaries.

Can't say I approve of what the guy did, but it seems more than likely we would not have had the wonderful renaissance of Brian Wilson for the last 20 (or 30) years if it wasn't for Eugene Landy.  Also Brian was sad when he died.  That should be counted in the tally.

Yeah, supposedly Brian was "devastated" after hearing the news that Landy croaked from lung cancer.

People like to divide people into good and bad. Truth is, as anyone who's been around the block will know, everyone you meet will vacillate between the two to varying degrees. Landy's influence on Brian seems more comparable to a drug or alcohol addiction. It began as something needed to get Brian through the day, to help him function and eventually it's grip on him became near fatal and he had to go cold turkey or die.

Brian Wilson did not go cold turkey after Landy took over in 1975.

it's the fault of the message board "auto tune"  :lol

I meant cold turkey from Landy, Landy being the drug Brian needed for a period to get him through and that eventually would have killed him in the metaphor I was going for.

for some reason Landy reminds me of one of those weird New Age 70's "self help guru" Hippie type dudes that would have released a bunch of "self Help" books on late night infomercials had he not had Brian and other celebrities to give him money... also yes Dennis would have whooped his ass had he lived, Dennis was NOT stupid, sure his last years were sad with drugs and alcohol  but he may have kept away from Landy because of the Vibes he was getting from him..maybe he feared another "Charles Manson type thing". Which, even though,as far as I know, there wasn't any kind if murder involved, Landy was kind of similar to Manson is some ways with manipulation and a "cult like" way of doing things,,,so I can totally see why Dennis would stay away from him. would he have saved Dennis' life? it's hard to say but my feeling is that Dennis wouldn't have taken any of Landy's crap..

Not necessarily.  Again, these people (Marilyn, his parents, the band) were amateurs.  When they thought back at what they considered "healthy" Brian, he was one of the world's greatest musicians.  It became synonymous with health!  I don't for a second think any of them had ulterior motives involving making him a hit making machine, it was simpler than that, and in fact, more loving than that.

"Brian's Sad.  I wish he was like he was when he wrote Surfin' USA again"

Is ultimately the sentiment behind it.  It's typical... you see it all the time with families that go through this kind of thing (a family member doing drugs, or having mental illness).  The family ultimately wants to see them back doing what they love, and without a doubt Brian loved making music. 

... and Mike of all people spoke up against it.  I don't think anybody in the family (including even Mike!) were trying to use Brian for commercial reasons.  They wanted him making good music because they saw that as healthy Brian and they wanted healthy Brian back.  They made lots of mistakes, simplified everything that was going on, enabled him, etc. but they didn't do any of it out of a desire to make more money off of him. 

There's that, but also Dennis was an addict and until they hit rock bottom there's no way in hell they're going to have anything to do with therapy or a doctor.  Dennis still had money, friends and could live his life as an addict right up until the end. 

Brian on the other hand had his entire family and the record company on his back to get straightened out, when your wife moves a doctor into your fucking house you really don't have much choice but to acknowledge the guy is there...

So I think you're right that Dennis didn't get a good vibe from Landy but he probably wouldn't have got a good vibe from any doctor and was hell bent on doing whatever the hell he wanted to do like most addicts are.  It's a great loss to the music world and his family that he never got the help he needed.

Right on, Ron.

Brian created the ultimate Beach Boys masterpiece in 'Pet Sounds'. Brian went supernova. Is it possible he creatively peaked at that time? Yes, the drug experimentation, possible mental health issues and the peer pressure  ::) played a part with Brian's lack of creativity or desire to create music post Smile. But tell me what masterpiece Lennon and McCartney created on their own post Beatles? They achieved some success on the charts but nothing they created would ever rival Sgt Peppers or many of their other Beatles albums. Lennon and McCartney peaked with the Beatles. I think George Martin played a big role in that success as well.

I'm sure at the time some would say that forcing Brian to get back in the studio and even on stage was 'good therapy'. Brain makes music. Maybe it was thought that it would help Brian get back to his old self. I think Landy DID save Brian's life but yes, the devil was in the details.

Interesting conversation as always but let's forget about what could have been. Brian appears to be very happy with his wife, children and home life. He's enjoying himself. Nice to see that picture of Brian at the corner store. What kind of pizza do you like, Brian? Who would have thought back in the late 1970's that Brian would be here now in 2015 creating wonderful music while we think about his brothers and what could have been if they were here today. They are missed.

God bless you, Brian. We're looking forward to a wonderful year! Thanks for the music.

Maybe this question should have warranted its own thread, but I'm throwing it in here:

I've often been curious about the overlap of the year 1983 with Brian getting cleaned up, simultaneous with Denny's tragic final decline.

I wonder how Denny felt about Brian getting cleaned up the 2nd time around. In 1983, at least, Landy probably didn't seem like as big of a scumbag as he eventually became. Did Brian's drastic 1983 improvement impact Denny in any way, or was Denny too far into his own addictions to make it sink in that he could possibly get better too?

I also wonder if Landy was very specifically trying to keep Brian away from Denny at that time. It would seem like a no-brainer, but I wonder if Denny was being demonized by Landy. We know that as the 80s dragged on, Landy did plenty of brainwashing of getting Brian to resent all the then-living BBs, but I wonder how Denny factored into that during that brief 1-year overlap of Landy II.

I think (?) I've read the idea was possibly floated around by the family that Denny should get helped by Landy, but that it never went anywhere. Did Landy himself ever express interest (or even giving a rat's ass) about the dire need to help his own client's brother? Either in Landy expressing interest in helping Denny himself, or at least in referring him to someone else (if Landy was going to be too busy 24/7 "helping" Brian)? Maybe Landy only was interested in clients who he thought were going to be able to be manipulated, and unless Landy was going to turn into a really hot babe, Landy probably knew any control of Denny wasn't gonna happen.

Well in the BS Landy/Brian biography Landy made sure to put something in there about how he was going to SAVE Denny next and obviously ran out of time.

My two cents. I give Landy nearly NO credit in any form. A thousand reputable doctors could have/should have treated Brian. People speculate on what if's here all the time. What if a true doctor, instead of that hack that drugged the hell out of Brian, had helped him.

I really wish I could understand what so many people see in the fluff that is Pepper. I really do feel like I'm living in the bizarro world sometimes because the idea that that album is some kind of unreachable milestone or the best work Lennon/McCartney did, much less the best work ANYONE ever did, absolutely blows my mind no matter how many times I hear it.

Anyway, I actually think a lot of McCartney's solo work is great and underrated. Live and Let Die, Band on the Run, Jet...those are mini masterpieces in my view. Never really heard Lennons solo work. That infamous cover was certainly a major turn off and I don't see what's so great about Imagine. It's just pandering pipe dreams. Pretentious lyrics and simple instrumentation. Not to mention he's a hypocrite acting like he's some beacon of hope and enlightenment after beating his wife and abandoning his son.

I've yet to hear much of Georges stuff, but he released a triple album. I'm sure some of that at least is worth listening to.

Maybe a bit off topic but I thought this warranted mention.

Edit: George Martin absolutely played a role in their success. He was a brilliant producer who brought life to many of their otherwise "good not great" songs. But I'd also say Brian Epstein really made them the worldwide smash they became. They really must have had a great PR team if the general public hails them as the best band ever unquestionably to this day. There were so many great bands of the 60s but they continue to get all the attention. We'Ve got posters here literally comparing them to Shakespeare, saying they were solely responsible for the counterculture and all other forms of hyperbolic nonsense. Their music is great, but if you took an alien, played him all the 60s musicians you could find with no context, I don't think the Beatles music would stand out that much from their peers if at all. Even if you played every album from every major band in chronological order, I don't think the Beatles albums would stand out, except maybe Rubber Soul in its cohesiveness. What perpetuates the "greatest band ever, omg! and no one else even comes close!" mantra is the amazing PR machine they've got working, which by now is so entrenched it's accepted as indisputable fact.


Not trying to veer off topic, but since you brought this up, that's my two cents. In any case it's a moot point. Brian shouldn't have been forced to be producer anymore. Getting him to write and play music again is one thing. But being everyone's breadwinner is exactly what lead to his breakdown in the first place.

LOL.  I tend to agree, especially when I compare Sgt. Peppers to some (most?) of Brian's best work.

Interesting, I did not know that Landy ever actually stated that (since I've never bothered to read that fake Brian bio).

Alexandra Morgan's one woman play, Sexagenarian, has its own website: http://www.am-sexagenarian.com/contact.html (http://www.am-sexagenarian.com/contact.html)

Here's her profile in the bio section:

Actor, poet, playwright, teacher, Alexandra is an original member of The Company Theater, LA’s premier experimental theater group founded in 1968.  In a previous incarnation, she starred in Arthur Miller’s After the Fall and The Crucible at the Ahmanson. The LA Free Press nominated her for best actress in 1974. Along with the Company, she appeared in the smash-hit environmental theater piece, The James Joyce Liquid Memorial Theater, to sold out performances in LA, San Francisco, and the Guggenheim Museum in NYC.  Alexandra also stars in the cult classic, First Nudie Musical, where she was singled out by Judith Crist for her daring hilarity. She doesn’t like to talk about it, but if you do your research, you may discover that she wrote lyrics for Brian Wilson on several albums.


Here are my two cents:

If "she doesn't like to talk about it," then why in the hell did she write it into her own profile on her own web page? Still trying to trade on the BW name, huh? This provides the answer to the question in the thread title. Did Landy ever realize he did anything wrong? Absolute not then. And obviously, with Alexandra, not now either.

Nothing wrong with Alexandra Morgan that I can see. Give her a break. Personally, I like her contributions to the songs "Love & Mercy", "There's So Many", "Let It Shine", "Night Time", and "Being With The One You Love". I'd like to encourage her to talk about it.  :)

Good for you 'cause it was really horrible. I did not even keep my copy after paying full price when it came out. It made me angry to read it because it was so obviously a pile of rubbish.  Just like when Sawyer interviewed him....your blood pressure would shoot up.

OK, then. Given that Ms. Morgan gets a free pass from the Landy court-of-public opinion, she should come forward and tell all. After all, the millions that were siphoned off Brian's bank account for better than a decade are probably still drawing interest in her bank accounts.

His last words before passing on was "Tell Brian that there is another Wilson and his name is Zeppooooooooooo...... ahhhhhhhh."

Alexandra more than likely didn't have much to do with Landy's business affairs, other than to write lyrics for the Brian Wilson '88 and Sweet Insanity albums. Probably her association with the controversial Landy is why she doesn't want to discuss the songwriting part of it. It's entirely possible that legally, she can't discuss it. She'd obviously rather talk about her acting career anyway.

After Landy checked out, Alexandra stated, "His [Landy's] one regret was that he didn't get out sooner. If anything, he lost sight of what was best for Eugene in his desire to help Brian."

Pure horseshit.   His one regret is that he and Alexandra got nailed having his patient alter his will , making them the prime beneficiaries of Brian Wilson's estate....

As Ray Lawlor said about Landy, "not dead enough yet..."  "His [Landy's] one regret was that he didn't get out sooner." - You mean kill Brian sooner so he and Alexandra could make off with the remainder of the estate?  I have no desire to make excuses for this woman, even if she wrote some of the most unintentionally funny lyrics ever.  She profited handsomely from what was done to Brian during that time.  I will save my sympathies for those who deserve them.

Oops - just saw Ray posted at the same time.  This is despicable. 

Again...then why in the world would she include her Brian Wilson association in her publicity bio?

Gee, Ray, been waitin' 3 days for you to come on this thread to help weed out the truth from bullshit!  Finally, I state a fact about Alexandra along with some speculation and you decide to call bullshit. I know you did that respectfully, Ray, maybe after a 6-er of Artois(?)

Then Debbie comes along, following Ray as she seems to be doing on the Love & Mercy thread putting in her .02 sense saying Alexandra's lyrics are "funny". Granted Alexandra's credits were subsequently removed from "Love & Mercy", but I don't find any of the lyrics to the above songs "funny". Why do you think they're funny, Debbie?

Perhaps - as might be the case with Landy - she didn't realize what was going on, and didn't see how evil Landy's behavior towards Brian was.

She was Landy's patient first, love affair second. Thus, Landy probably had a very strong influence on her (especially since she may have had an easily "corrupted" mind, as she needed the services of a psychologist, but that's speculation), and might have been able to convince her, intentionally or not, that they weren't doing anything wrong. Maybe she's still convinced of it to this day.

You ever name-dropped on a resume or interview or mentioned to someone that you met a Rock star by name, John? If you wrote lyrics to a bunch of songs that were released on a couple of albums and a single by a Rock star, would you put it in your bio or resume some place? Like I said above, maybe she doesn't want to re-live it by people asking her about it or she doesn't want to be associated by the controversial subject surrounding her husband. Notice her last name is still "Morgan".

By the way, John, do you know about a story about Brian and Gary Usher's wife?  How about Brian and a pager and a toilet?

Not sure she is getting a pass...if what I'm reading here is true and verified...surprising that they were not "disgorged" of their ill-gotten gains.  And the whole concept of the attempt to cause his rightful heirs to be disinherited.  

Who does this?  Predators and frauds.  

Gross beyond words.

Hi Mikie;  I try to hang loose until I have something what I consider relevant to say. I called bullshit on her quote, not your usage of it.

Exactly, people acting like Landy was the only person on the planet who could treat Brian is just bizarre.

All Things Must Pass. Better than any Beatles album by a considerable mile.

Giving Landy credit for what he accomplished isn't the same as saying nobody else could have done it.  History just tells us that he WAS the person who did it.  I think people are just saying to his credit he did straighten Brian out (for awhile).

Landy undoubtedly used some strong arm techniques, that may have been the difference between him and other doctors.  He wasn't able to strong arm Dennis but was in a position where he could basically abuse Brian into doing what he wanted.  If another doctor would have been involved he may not have been able to achieve results because his ethics would keep him in line.


With that said though, Brian's done even better without Landy than he ever did with him, so that's something and a testament to the other doctors that have worked with him. 

Come on now. 

I don't think that he was the only person on the planet who could treat Brian... however, in late '82, at a time of extreme desperation and with the clock ticking fast with Brian's addictions at their worst, I'm not sure the family knew or had access/awareness of anyone else who could have sobered Brian up. I think it was a matter of ignorance of being aware of anyone better, or anyone who would work at all, for that matter (clearly they didn't like Landy in many ways, and it had to be a bite-the-tongue situation made out of desperation).

As I recall, Melinda on the now-deleted-from-Youtube Larry King video said something to the effect of "they had the best doctors at UCLA just minutes away", criticizing the family and Marilyn in particular... a criticism which does sound logical and makes sense to me, in 30 years hindsight... and I'm not sure why the UCLA thing wasn't a valid option at the time.

That said, not to give the family a free pass for handing Brian off to Landy in 1982/1983, but it would seem that they probably had well-intended reasons that made sense to them at the time, wouldn't you think?

I thought so. I never post bullshit on purpose, Ray, unless I'm egging someone on or being sarcastic. Like you and AGD and Stebbins and Howie, I don't hesitate to call it when I see it either. I usually try to check more than one source for the info. There's so much speculation on this board, we need guys like you around to tell it like it is.

Who did that? Somebody here? They should get smacked!!

I basically agree with that. Landy went above and beyond, too far (at a time when the family knew of no other resource to get results, and maybe they needed someone who was ethically questionable to go that bit too far, to essentially scare and force him into sobriety). I dunno. It sounds awful to in any way, shape or form condone that, but it did work at the time, before it very quickly escalated and got way, way, way out of line of course.

I wish there could have been a better way, and there surely was... but I guess nobody in the family really quite knew what that better way was at the time.

Juuuuuuust kidding.

Exactly my point. Plus this is how Landy used Brian to get involved in his business affairs. Landy was smart, he knew the BBs fired him the first time because of his escalating fees so second time round he duped Brian into letting him collabarate with him, all in the name of 'therapy'. Suddenly, Landy was recieving half the royalties of every song Brian put out and was getting to live his rock star dreams throught his client.
Landy knew what he was doing every step of the way, he knew it was legally and morally wrong but he did it anyway for the money and the fame. And conveniently, anyone who dared question Landy's ethics found themselves cut off to Brian.

Of course he did. Landy knew what he was going to do from the beginning in '83. That's why he got buy-offs from the desperate Carl Wilson, Jerry Schilling, John Branca, and Tom Hulett to do whatever the hell he wanted, with no intervention from others as part of the agreement. Took many years until they finally did intervene.

Like I said before, Brian should have been commited for his own good by the early 80s. I'm guessing no one wanted to make that hard decision for him while any other option was being presented. Plus as cynical as it sounds, Landy was very good at dangling the carrot that he could get Brian writing and recording for the group again.

Name dropped that I met a rock star? No. Unless it was here, of course, where those experiences are readily shared.

If I wrote lyrics to songs, would I put it in my bio? Absolutely....UNLESS....my contributions were part of a larger scheme designed to isolate/exploit/defraud a very vulnerable rock star unable to defend himself. And, that scheme was later uncovered, and I was caught alongside my companion red-handed and exposed to the world as a blood-sucking fraud. At that point, I would begin a slow and painful process of divorcing myself from that part of my past, express contrition, apologize for my wrongdoing, and maintain a very low profile about it. What I would NOT do is publicize it on a website promoting my new career, having moved on from that unfortunate part of my life.

That brings me back full circle to my original point regarding the title of this thread. No, neither of these two, Eugene or Alexandra, ever thought they did  anything wrong.  Quite the contrary, she is willing to publicize her involvement with Brian Wilson in her own passive-aggressive way. "I don't want to talk about it, but dig the work I did with Brian Wilson back in the 80s!"

As for Gary Usher, not sure I understand the question. But, I did read in the Wilson Project about how comfortable Brian felt in the Usher home around Gary's wife and children. And, I think the submerged pager story was told in that book.

It was good that the Usher family helped Brian Wilson write music in 1986-1987 without trying to sneak an inheritance out of the deal.

I've never heard it yet but I don't see why this opinion is so unbelievable. George wrote the best songs on all the later albums. And, I guess I'm alone in this opinion, but aside from Rubber Soul, Revolver and Abbey Road I really don't think the Beatles albums are *that* great. I consider Pepper fluff, White Album a mess, Let It Be just alright... I mean, is it really that hard to conceive of someone making a better album? Let alone the guy that wrote the best songs on these albums?

This probably isn't the right thread to go into this, but from my perspective, the cult of Beatle-mania is just really off-putting. It's so all-encompassing that it's almost disturbing. If I said any other bands discography was better than literally ALL OTHER BANDS COMBINED I'd be rightly called a fanatic and my wild assertion dismissed as ignorance or hyperbole. But people literally say that about the Beatles and it's treated as a valid opinion by some, a resolute statement of fact by others. It's...crazy.

Not here, but somewhere else on this board, I really think this topic warrants discussion and the myth of the Beatles as the one and only progressive band whom all other bands were either outright copying or vastly inferior to has to be dissected.

Not just that. The book blames Carl for supposedly wanting to wait until after Christmas to begin Dennis' treatment. He is indirectly blamed for Dennis' death on his older brother's autobio-- it must have been heartbreaking for Carl.

I'll answer my own question. Here's the story/joke you told awhile back. I think it's from the book:


Usher's wife: "Hey Brian, what are you doing?"

BW: "Oh, I'm just sitting here in the chair with a golf club in my hand."

(then a few minutes of silence goes by)

BW: "Now there is no golf club in my hand."

(Wife looks over, noticing he had put golf club down. She goes back to strumming guitar, then looks over and notices he has picked the golf club back up).

Usher's wife: "And now you have the golf club back in your hand."

(Brian looks at her and cracks up laughing.)
 
 

Ah, yes. I went back and found it. It's in the book.  So is the pager story.  It's kind of pricy, and it can be found on ebay sometimes, but if you ever get a chance, it's worth the read. It will put out of your mind any possible sympathy you would ever dream of having toward Landy and Company. In fact, it's such an outrageous diary of events, it will enrage you that this could happen to anyone.

I just don't see it that way. A quick one-liner blurb and that's it. No details and I understand why she wouldn't want to discuss it.

Maybe she should come on this board for a Q&A like Loren Daro and be target practice for your questions.

John, I bought the original book(s) hot off the presses in 1992. Like I said earlier, I talked to the author of the book over a pitcher of Foster's at a Beach Boys convention in the Summer of '92. That roundtable discussion was a real eye-opener. Back then, there were two volumes, one with a gray cover and one with a pink cover. I don't have the updated 2013 edition though.

Come back and tell us if the album's better than anythig the Beatles ever released after you've... you know... actually listened to it.

Mikie...if you own the books, what was your purpose in asking me the story about Gary Usher's wife? Am I missing something?

Way to completely sidestep my entire point. I wasn't saying I thought it was better. I've just always noticed a really bizarre, insanely hyperbolic/disturbingly unquestioned cult of personality around the Beatles and I'm sick of it. It's bad enough the mainstream media simplifies the fascinating '60s music scene down to "Beatles, Beatles, Beatles...uh...27 club too" and casual music fans lap it up. But for the more hardcore music buffs, the kind who'd post on a forum like this, I'd expect more diversity in taste and nuance in their understanding of the California & Swinging London scenes. Surely if you dig deep enough, you can find other, criminally underappreciated albums and artists at least on par with the Fab Four? But for so many here to make such ridiculous assertions as I've seen it's kinda sad.

I mean, like whatever you wanna like. If you've honestly given the lesser known stuff like USA, Zappa, Love, King Crimson, Red Krayola, etc a chance and prefer Sgt Pepper that's fine. But don't feed me this crap that they alone created the hippie scene, are as influential as Shakespeare, are better than every other band combined, etc. I wouldn't mind so much if people stated these borderline insane opinions as fact if others at least called them out on it. But the myth of the greatest, unquestionably genius band ever is so pervasive that no one dares challenge it. Its just taken as a fact that the Beatles alone paved the way and everyone else was riding their coattails.

What you claimed wasn't nearly so ridiculous, but it's your dismissive attitude that I take offense to. It seems ATMP was a major critical and commercial success upon its release and in hindsight. It was made by the guy who wrote the best material on the later Beatles albums. Does the opinion "ATMP is better than any Beatles album" really warrant such a blunt, unsubstantiated, "Nope, you're wrong" kind of response? Would you have felt as comfortable shutting that opinion down, without backing your own up, had Mike's Beard said "ATMP is much better than any Jefferson Airplane/HP Lovecraft/Doors album? I'm not sure, but my guess is probably not.

Edit: After this post I'm not going to address the topic anymore here, not to get the last word in but because I realize I'm derailing this thread which is about a very serious topic and I feel this is an inappropriate place to do so. I've just been noticing lately how firmly entrenched Beatlemania is and I think it's high past time that a more balanced, realistic view of the counterculture music take place. Break free of the echo chamber, of the need for there to be a "best" listen to some of their lesser known contemporaries with an open mind, and consider the fact that just because there are "scholarly articles" written about them that doesn't necessarily mean the Beatles made the most progressive or "best" music in their day. Beach Boys fans of all people should know that the best music isn't always what hits #1 on the charts or is immediately recognized by the critics. Or do you think Surfin USA is objectively better than Pet Sounds because "it sold xyz records!" and "all the screaming girls!" ?

Saw you posted it on a Landy-related thread in 2011 and just wanted to see if you knew the source.

Do you have the original issue of Wilson Project or the 2013 edition? I'd like to know if I'm missing much by not having the newer edition.

I still have to pick up INCEPTION AND CONCEPTION - THE BEACH BOYS 1961-1963 by Steve McParland.

Right. In the book, everything is Carl's fault. Carl, the one Wilson brother who sobered up on his own, is the demon, the one coming between Brian and the Doctor/angel/Godsend who saved his life. In that pathetic interview with Diane Sawyer, Landy said "the family beats him (Brian) up". Yeah, I can just see Carl, Audree, Carnie and Wendy physically or verbally beating the piss out of poor Brian...NOT! Landy was an evil control freak who just couldn't stand the thought of anyone gaining access to his Frankenstein and possibly having any influence on him.

A few points to make:

In the Seventies, Brian was very depressed, and did not find an adequate psychiatrist after the accidental death of the psychiatrist that was someone Brian trusted.

The milieu therapy approach is heavily Skinnerian, and is based on replacing aberrant behaviors with healthy behaviors. The method requires immersion in a new milieu, with control of the person in their environment essential.

Chemically and behaviorally dependent people are that way because the issues underlying their addictive behavior have been numbed by whatever addictive substance or activity is used to avoid the emotional pain that would otherwise be experienced (e.g. physical, emotional, or sexual abuse)

The chemically or behaviorally dependent person is by nature a chameleon. He or she can change to counteract whatever challenges may present themselves that are designed to stop the dependency. Brian is an incredible survivor.

In essence, a truly talented chemically or behaviorally dependent individual can allow the "treatment strategies" to blow over him like reeds do in a hurricane. When the hurricane is over, the dependent behavior resumes as before the "treatment."

In truth, there is nothing Carl could have done that he did not try to do in Brian's situation. His efforts truly were the leverage that allowed Brian and Landy to be separated.

Dennis's battle with chemical dependence was sadly lost. He was scheduled to go to treatment a few times, and did not enter at the last minute. Chemical dependence is a genetically transmitted trait, and is usually passed from parent to child. As Timothy White so competently demonstrated, chemical and behavioral dependence in the Wilson family went back at least two generations, and possibly more.

The reason Brian did not produce many more Beach Boys albums after 1967, in my opinion, is that besides stereo being something he could not realize creatively due to hearing loss, he was also behaviorally dependent on his studio work in the mid Sixties. If you read between the lines, his dependence upon music to escape the emotional pain of his childhood began while he still lived at home in high school. When mood altering chemicals were introduced in the mid Sixties, the predictable phenomenon of cross-addiction happened, and he jumped from behavioral dependence upon music to light and then heavier mood altering chemicals, and overeating.

I am so grateful that Brian found the people he did to support his wellness, through encouraging and loving support, unconditional love, and allowing him the choices he needed to make. That, combined with the medicational regimen he is on which helped him rebalance his brain neurochemistry is why we have had so much wonderful music and live performances since Landy and Brian were legally separated.

If Alexandra should be reading this, sorry for asking about Brian Wilson. John Malone's posts made me realize that she probably doesn't need to be bothered w/ this stuff.

Take care, & RIP to Gene Landy (March 22nd, 9 yrs since he died)

You are right. It's all coming back to me now..augh..

You don't even need to read the book,  just look at the pictures. I remember there was a set of shots with Brian sitting there looking totally withdrawn, and Landy is in his face talking to him, then hugging him...and the caption said something like "Intense Therapy" ...intense therapy my ass.

I'm really glad that this movie is coming out and tells the story of the way this gold digger further damaged an already damaged person.

I am sorry if you feel I am being too hard on poor Alexandra. She must have been as floored as everyone else to find out her boyfriend was doing such evil things to Brian Wilson. Heck, had she known, she probably would have joined in the lawsuit alongside Carl, Audree, Carnie, and Wendy to have Gene removed from Brian's life.

It must be added that Brian immediately responded by defending Marilyn:

`My wife didn't know he was a crazy man.`

Peter - thanks is for explaining the Skinner method. The state of addiction treatment is pretty poor.  It is heavily rationed, full of highly unqualified people and the whole "waiting for a bed" is cruel and abusive in my view.  Carl could not have done much for Dennis other than "tie him up until he dried out." And it is so unkind to commit a family member during the holidays, especially if they feel badly about themselves, although on balance, the holidays are the time when people often start using again after a period of relative sobriety.  Unless they check themselves in voluntarily, which doesn't happen so often.

Shame on Landy for joining in on making judgment calls as to the reason Dennis died. It shows his unfitness.  At least neuroscience is now beginning to take hold with "measurable and quantifying" scanners which remove the subjective judgment calling that has been the hallmark of this whole dynamic.  It is now possible to see a damaged region of the damaged prefrontal cortex which like an x-Ray of a broken bone, is free of value judgment and shaming.

Nora Volkow is doing great work in this area, and it removes the whole "shaming" of people who suffer from addiction and are unfortunately cut of from their families, as though the "negative reinforcement" worked.  More than one of my former students has died in "the gutter" because of backward addiction attitudes.  Tough love doesn't always work so well. Only unconditional love helps, while neither being called an enabler, nor a doormat.  

A lot of this is just pure luck trying to get to someone before they overdose.  Sometimes you just can't get there fast enough and that is why many police and fire departments now carry narcan which, in the case of heroin will reverse the overdosing pretty quickly.  It probably would not have helped Dennis since he was submerged.  That was not available thirty years ago.  Here's hoping that better things will happen for those who suffer.  

Like you said,  start a new thread about it.

Oh no. Your opinion is your opinion, just as mine is mine. I wasn't insinuating that I thought you were being negative. Now, I'm gonna wash my hands of all this & change my username. Have a good weekend  ^-^

The notion that, for nine years, Landy's girlfriend had no idea what he was doing to Brian is simply laughable. She was around, she saw what was happening. She knew. She was complicit.

That is credible and makes perfect sense, Andrew.

What with the whole living in his house thing.

Andrew...thank you!!! I was beginning to feel like the lone voice picking on her.

Hi all,

I think that Landy might haven known by this time he was doing wrong.  That one comment to Diane Sawyer abut how in his life of work he is an artist was a sing that he thought he was right.  Yet I wonder how he felt once the camera was off?  Very few people will admit they were wrong.  Alexandra knew what was going on.  Landy couldn't take anyone who had a differnt opinion of him and what he was doing.  That wasn't just wrong of Landy to say that the Wislson family was sick and were harming Brian it was evil, pure and simply evil.  Nothing can EVER justify that statement of Landy's.  Evan will always defend his Father.  Alexndra will always say that she and Eugene were the victims.  Carl taking them to court was magnificent!!!  Remember when Melinda started to question Landy he told her to go away.  I like what Peter and Debbie said.  There is what people will say in public and to the public and what they will say and do in private.   People who manipulate will be found out sooner or later.  In an interview Audree said that Landy was the wrost thing that happened to her son.  When Brian's daughter saw their father they could only see him one house a piece and a person from Landy's staff had to be there.  I read on an online site that Brian had to sneak a phone call to Audree.  Brain did take drugs.  Landy did take advatnage.  If any of you want to learn more about Landy read Maureen McCormick's story.  Can we change what happened?  No, we cannot.  Can we say how we feel?  Yes, we can.  I know that if Brian had been put in a hospital for two years he might have been fine.  If Alexandra wants to talk she will.  I think that both sides simply want to move on.  I know that Landy thought he could outsmart the others.  Yet he forgot, or chose to forget, that the blame finger always comes back around.  Nobody in that sitution is blameless.  The real victims of the Landy years are the two daughters from Brian's first marriage.  Audree and the girls are blameless.  In the end Carl saved the day.  He is the hero.  

Yeah, AGD, thanks for putting Malone at ease. He can breathe easier now.  Meanwhile, let's not forget to completely disregard  the "funny" lyrics she wrote to some of the finest melodies around. You know, the lyrics that were approved of by Wilson, Titelman, Waronker, and Stein. Let's be sure to play that down and accentuate the negative stuff she was sucked into by association.  ::)

I thought BW '88 had some pretty decent lyrics, for the most part, compared to what had come before. Although I love 'Everybody Wants to Live Just Once', regardless, so I suppose I've pretty much become agnostic on lyrics over the years of my Beach Boys fandom.  :P

Agree with this 1000%. I'm really looking forward to the book on Carl, he seemed to have an inner strength that few in life are lucky to possess.

I'm taking this to PM due to the personal attack level here, but will comment on one thing.  Re:  the L&M THREAD, I commented on previous reviews by people who had seen the film, ever since Toronto.  Recently I commented on Howie's review first, and I commented on Ray's review later.  They were responses to people who actually saw the film.  My comments are based on personal experience and relationships from before the Landy period and observations during the Landy period, so I have a perspective here, whether you happen to agree or not.

Thanks for posting this Mikie.  The Brian section of this was sort of painful to watch (except the part with Diane Sawyer walking on the beach, she’s hot).  And I don’t need to see that photo of Brian in a Speedo again, yikes!

Yeah, we all wish we could go back in time and find a real doctor for Brian.

Mikie, I don't get what your problem is here. Best stow it.

Yes, that was despicable.

As I recall (the copy I had of that awful book is long since gone), the book said that part of the treatment would have been an intervention, and since Carl figured -- probably correctly -- that Dennis would put up a big fight and probably make things ugly, that Carl decided to wait until after the first of the year to spare Audree any drama during the holiday season.

Of course, what that book DIDN'T mention is that Carl had tried to get Dennis help for years and had offered to have the Beach Boys pay for the treatment and buy the Harmony back for Dennis if he stayed clean.

Pointing all that out would have gotten in the way of Landy's agenda.

PM from me your way, Bud.

You're welcome, Heysaboda.  I remember when that was first broadcast on TV on a weeknight. . Very enlightening. My whole family watched it with me and I remember saying out loud, "Uh oh".

I thought so too.

Could it be that someone has a crush on Ms. Morgan?

Who, Mikie or AGD?

 :lol

Exactly. Landy hated Carl because he was the one trying to separate the dr from his patient/hostage/victim. Again, I have to think all the trauma Carl endured trying to take care of his brothers took years off his own life. He always put others before himself. Only the sickest MF ever would blame Carl for Dennis' death.

They weren't the greatest (understatement) but miles ahead of anything on Sweet Insanity.

I think the idea that Landy or Morgan contributed much of substance to the lyrics on BW88 is laughable.

Rewriting Brian's original words or adding extra, dubious verses? Perhaps. But the main lyrics of Love and Mercy are clearly all Brian's doing. And I have no idea what they could have added to Let It Shine, given that Jeff Lynne wrote the bulk of the song.

How do you know that?  Looking forward to your response.

Meanwhile, it's known that a couple of Landy's credits were rescinded before the re-release of the Brian Wilson '88 on CD (Rhino). I noticed that Morgan has been removed from the Love & Mercy credits. So obviously some of the credits were B.S. I guess the publishing company knows who wrote what/when and who didn't.  Not sure Brian knows - he folded like a wet noodle in court concerning the Mike Love Sea Of Tunes lyrics. But I don't think the general public knows who actually wrote what. You can get writing credit for only contributing two words, so.......

I dunno, after looking at her picture, I was thinking about...

Hoo boy! After years of just reading just about everything here and actually posting once in a blue moon, I finally decided to come out of my shell and engage in conversation. I started the day yesterday with only about 22 cumulative posts over five years, and just in the past 24 hours, I have posted almost that same amount. And, just as quickly, I seem to have ruffled some feathers. 

Mikie...do you have an association with Alexandra Morgan we don't know about here? Of all the drama I have sat and watched in this place over the years, most of it has been part of efforts to defend either a Love or a Wilson, or someone else close to the band in a positive way. I simply cannot believe anyone would waste his/her energy going to the mat over Alexandra Morgan, who was a co-conspirator in all the abuse put out by one Eugene E. Landy. I only offered my initial opinions about whether or not Landy ever felt guilt. Then, somebody posted the link to that horrific one woman show (if you watch it, you'd think it was a bit from SCTV). After checking out the part between 45:00 and 50:00, where Ms. Morgan gives us a personal and rather fond recollection of being seduced by her therapist IN THE OFFICE did I again confirm that Landy was a total whack job completely lacking an ethical compass. And, since she appears to be proud that she had the rare (yeah, right) opportunity to go to bed with Dr. Landy, then she's pretty much the same. It just gave me a true insight into who these people were (and apparently she still is.) No need for me to breathe easier. I wasn't that upset about it to begin with. If the sad tale of abuse regarding BW wasn't there, these two people would be more humorous than anything else.

Not just a couple. All of Landy and Morgan's songwriting credits were removed. I'm not saying that's accurate or correct, either.

I also didn't say that I knew anything about the authorship of those songs. Please note that I began my post with the words "I think."

But given Landy's desire to be credited for everything, and to insert himself into every part of Brian's life, I think the idea that he truly co-wrote Brian's best songs of the period is nuts. There were reports from the sessions that Landy would try to rewrite lyrics to songs on the fly -- and there are extant boots of BW88 tunes with alternate, worse lyrics.

John, to be truthful, I did exchange a few e-mails with Alexandra around 2007 after Landy died. But that's neither here nor there. I exchanged quite a few with Carol Kaye too, but if I bring it up here, AGD would tell me she's fulla sh*t and never talk to me again. I regard AGD as a friend; we are only days apart on birthdays, and there's been COUNTLESS times over the years when I've wanted to step in and defend posters on this board and others who have had run-ins with him. But.... I held back. Then today, he tells me to "Stow it". Isn't that what Mel the cook use to say on that sitcom show a few years back?

Hey, after all this board-polarizing Mike vs. Brian and Brian vs. Mike and Mike vs. Mike and the Brianistas and the Lovesters and The Smiley Smile Board vs. Loren Daro with Buddahat and others sticking up for the underdog, I decided to take the low road and get my own attention. Realizing I would be unpopular even while emphasizing in my posts that Landy was a "villain" and a "crook" along with other adjectives, I defended his therapy decision to get Brian back in the saddle right way with his music (did I really have to?) Then I decided to exude an air of positivity towards someone who contributed a few lyrics to some songs that I like. That's it. And I have no regrets. The thing that got me in trouble with the board hierarchy is when I said, "Alexandra more than likely didn't have much to do with Landy's business affairs, other than to write lyrics for the Brian Wilson '88 and Sweet Insanity albums. Probably her association with the controversial Landy is why she doesn't want to discuss the songwriting part of it." I thought about that twice before I posted it, but was feeling a little defensive and posted it anyway. Shoot me. It's been a fun discussion, and I'm sure the Johnny Come Latelys will provide their input now, since there's nothing else to talk about and business is slow here.

Thanks - I can't imagine that anyone presumed that anyone but Brian wrote the music, but anything's possible. The lyrics I found entertaining were the Landy-esque aphorisms/cliches of the time where Morgan was credited - must have been the boot. I suppose it's possible that Brian wrote them to make Landy happy, given the benefits for him from doing that at the time, but they definitely don't sound like Brian.  

I've also seen the alternate lyrics to most of those songs, and it's not surprising that some were changed by Landy or to appease Landy. Some were lame before (or just used for demo purposes) but it seems like for the most part the lyrics were improved for the released versions.

Also, check out the differences between the liners for the first issue and the re-issue. The only mention of Landy or Morgan on the re-issue liners, including song credits, were for Landy as "Executive Producer". That's it! The producers of the re-issue made sure 99% of Landy's credits were removed. Somebody must know the truth here!

Song Credits - BRIAN WILSON '88

Side A
 
1. "Love and Mercy"   Brian Wilson/Eugene Landy/Alexandra Morgan 2:52
2. "Walkin' the Line"   Wilson/Landy/Nick Laird-Clowes 2:37
3. "Melt Away"   Wilson/Landy 2:58
4. "Baby Let Your Hair Grow Long"   Wilson/Landy 3:15
5. "Little Children"   Wilson 1:48
6. "One for the Boys"   Wilson 1:47
7. "There's So Many"   Wilson/Landy/Morgan 2:46

Side B
 
1. "Night Time"   Wilson/Landy/Morgan/Andy Paley 3:34
2. "Let it Shine"   Wilson/Landy/MorganJeff Lynne 3:57
3. "Meet Me in My Dreams Tonight"   Wilson/Paley/Andy Dean 3:05
4. "Rio Grande"   Wilson/Paley 8:12

Song Credits - BRIAN WILSON '88 CD (REISSUE)

1. Love And Mercy
(Written by Brian Wilson) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI)
Produced by Brian Wilson and Russ Titelman

2. Walkin’ The Line
(Written by Brian Wilson and Nick Laird-Clowes) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI) and EMI Music Ltd (PRS)
Produced by Brian Wilson

3. Melt Away
(Written by Brian Wilson) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI)
Produced by Brian Wilson and Russ Titelman

4. Baby Let Your Hair Grow Long
(Written by Brian Wilson) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI)
Produced by Brian Wilson and Russ Titelman

5. Little Children
(Written by Brian Wilson) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI)
Produced by Brian Wilson and Russ Titelman

6. One For The Boys
(Written by Brian Wilson) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI)
Produced by Brian Wilson

7. There’s So Many
(Written by Brian Wilson) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI)
Produced by Brian Wilson and Russ Titelman

8. Night Time
(Written by Brian Wilson and Andy Paley) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI) WB Music Corp. obo Twilite Tunes (ASCAP)
Produced by Brian Wilson and Russ Titelman

9. Let It Shine
(Written by Brian Wilson and Jeff Lynne) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI), SBK April Music (ASCAP)
Produced by Brian Wilson and Jeff Lynne

10. Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight
(Written by Brian Wilson, Andy Paley and Andy Dean) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI)
Produced by Brian Wilson
Co-Produced by Andy Paley

11. Rio Grande
(Written by Brian Wilson and Andy Paley) © 1988 Beach Bum Music (BMI)
Produced by Brian Wilson and Lenny Waronker
Co-Produced by Andy Paley

Alexandra Morgan also had songwriter credits for "Being With The One You Love" and also "In My Car" and "Let's Go To Heaven In My Car".

http://albumlinernotes.com/Brian_Wilson__Reissue_.html

Who wrote the lyrics to "Save the Day"? Those have to be the worst lyrics I've ever heard on a Landy-era Brian song, released or otherwise.

"Save The Day" from Sweet Insanity?  Sure looks like Landy had his hand in those lyrics!

I'd assume you're right.

"Lennon said it best... give peace a chance"

Blechhh! Almost sounds like Brian was channeling Mike with his mega-corporate Radio Shack baseball cap ironically singing Lennon's anti-possesion anthem "Imagine".
Not. Cool.

My memory of BW88 is actually that the booted lyrics are the Landy-ized ones. That is, the producers recorded them to appease him, but they made sure to use the better, earlier versions when compiling the final album. According to the Tim White book, Gene remixed the entire album, too, but his work was rejected.

As for the credits removal, I tend to believe it was because Brian and Melinda reached an agreement with Landy and Morgan to give up their interest in Brian's solo songs. I would assume they paid them, too.

And yes, the most obvious (and awful) Landy / Morgan lyrics are on Sweet Insanity. Save the Day, Brian, you name it. Ugh.

Even after Landy's passing, a mullet that diabolical cannot wilt. It cannot die.

You still don't get it, do you?

It will find you. That's what it does. That's all it does.

Thanks, Wirestone.  That's how I remember the lyrics for the boot and Sweet Insanity stuff, but don't have access to it now.  Full of Landy-isms...  I certainly have no problem with the lyrics Brian uses for "Love & Mercy" post-Landy and I don't remember objecting to the lyrics of it at the time - very sweet and heart-felt. I have no idea what happened with the credits removal, but we might imagine, given the ethical and possibly legal repercussions of what he pulled before he was dis-barred and removed from Brian's life.

With Landy going in and tinkering and trying to make remixes, and the back-and-forth hot mess of choosing/rejecting/re-choosing mixes, I wonder if that led to the presumable vault master tape disarray which caused multiple wrong mixes to be used on the BW88 2000 reissue? Anyone? That would seem to make sense.

Actually I thought it was the opposite for BW 88 - there's early demos and alternate versions and then there's the released songs with Landy credited on the record/liners. Now if you're talking about Sweet Insanity, it seems there's an early version of that album (i.e. Concert Tonight/Someone To Love, Let's Do It Again/Black Widow, Water Builds Up,  and others) with songs of inferior sound quality, then the 'finalized' version that was ripped off from the studio. You might be right though, Wirestone. Somebody closer to it might confirm - I'd like to know myself. The first boot of Sweet Insanity that I heard in the early 90's was the clean-sounding releasable version on cassette, then I heard a few of the earlier versions of the same songs a little later on.


Sounds logical. They probably just wanted to wash their hands of it at that point, and of course obtain 100% of the royalties/residuals.

From Wikipedia (where everything is completely accurate) "Wilson ordered two conditions of his own: that Landy would be appointed Executive Producer and Business Manager, and that he would be allowed to work at his own pace. Wilson proceeded to record a full album composed largely of new material while working mainly with Andy Paley, Eugene Landy & wife Alexandra Morgan, and a few other guest musicians".

Then later the credits were removed from the songs that they supposedly worked on! Ha Ha!

I'm sure it contributed. IIRC, only two mixes were incorrect, though -- Melt Away, which was missing a vocal on the tag, and Let It Shine, which supposedly sounded different (I could never tell).

True or false:

The lyrics to "Smart Girls" were written by Brian Wilson.

Landy was credited on the release, but many of the  earlier lyrics were (for lack of  better way of putting it) 'Landy-fied'. I think 'There's So Many' was an exception, though...that may be the most Brian song out of them all. If those were Landy's lyrics (and I doubt it), then he did a bang-up imitation of Brian's lyrical style.

Still think Gary Usher got gypped on the credit for 'Walking the Line', though.

As for 'Smart Girls', well...I don't know the details on that one, but to my ears it always sounded like Brian taking the piss out of the song. I've always kind of looked at it as a parody...much less painful that way!

False

Flashback: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUfPvSvbhJA.

Brian & Alexandra were watching Yo MTV Raps one day...and the rest is history.

On the topic of lyrics, I wonder why B.W. took out the words "sweet insanity" on the Gettin' in Over My Head version of Rainbow Eyes. There's some lines excised/changed on Make a Wish, too.

Correcto mundo!

How about "Country Feelin'" and "Daddy's Little Girl"?  Wilson or Landy?

I always thought the original Brian lyric for There's So Many were those of the demo version.

Yeah, I was referring to the demo version too, although I have a strong doubt that Landy did too much to the finished one.

The problem with the reissue mixes was down to the fact there is no single, banded & sequenced master. As Mark explained at the time, the songs were stored individually on racks, and almost inevitably, wrong mixes were pulled.

As for pulled credits, Landy's on the 1985 album reissue were removed after negotiations involving monetary recompense. I'd assume the same applied to Brian's first solo album credits.

Thanks for the info, AGD.

Regarding Landy's credits being bought out, I suppose that would make him and Charles Manson the only known cowriters in the band's catalog who have their names missing from the credits of songs they actually contributed to, due to having been bought off? It always strikes me is weird that that can happen, since, while I completely understand the band wanting to watch its hands of those people, it's not accurate in terms of who actually contributed, in some fashion, to the songs.

That's the most "normal" Brian interview I have seen during that time period. He seems relaxed, and doesn't have many of the Landy-induced tics and mannerisms that were sadly common then.

Century Deprived - there might have been a lot of factors for different reasons that the authorship was bought out.  Manson reportedly intimidated ( an understatement) Dennis/and or the band, for recognition and publicity. 

Landy's work might not have been his actual work but his scheming and more subtle intimidation and crossing the line, professionally.

Not all work has authorship credit if it is a "work for hire" in which case the boss/owner owns the work or the invention.

We don't know all the factors that led to those decisions, but perhaps "throwing money at the problem" disconnected the relationships which was essential to cut the ties as between and among the two charlatans. 

This band, with a public "wholesome" image doesn't need to be tied to murderers and "unprofessional professionals."

Absolutely understood, and by no means was I trying to come off as judgmental or contrarian about those decisions that were made. They make perfect sense, or at least they make perfect sense to me, even with my limited knowledge of not being an insider. I was just pointing out that is an odd and unusual situation, that a person could contribute something to a song (or presumably a movie), but not be credited due to a payout. I imagine it may happen more often then I realize, and probably has happened many times outside of this band, but I hadn't heard of the practice of it until this band.

And yes, regarding Manson and Landy… Charlatans they were indeed.

Century Deprived - I think we are on the same page; I didn't think it was judgmental.  And those are pretty established concepts, "work for hire" or "independent contractor" to "perform work in behalf of another."  But I wouldn't have known either if I had not taken classes in that area.  And it is doubtful that this is the only band that has arrived at such arrangements.  Both decisions, wise, for the business to move on after a disaster.  We only grow from our mistakes. 

Hi all,

Manson was once a part of Dennis's life.  Landy was once a part of Brian's life.  While a majority of fans don't like it this is how it was.  The former is in jail.  The latter is dead.  Both men were wrong.  I am sure that whomever bought Landy back in is kicking himself now.  It would be natural for Alexndra to say that she and Eugene were victims.  Each side wants to be the vicitm.  Yet in the end Brian was the victm of Landy and Dennis was the victim of Manson.  I know that Manson would say he was the victm of Dennis.  It is amazing what people will say when they have lost the cases.  Dennis is dead.  Brian is still with us and has an ablum coming out on Tuesday, April 7.  I am looking forward to enjyoing that.  Yes, Carl did put others first.  I am sure he received some spanknigs from Murry.  Both men are dead.  Did any of you notice in the Diane Sawyer interview that at one point Landy compated himself to Brian?  What a crock!!!  Landy had illusions of a very posh and grand life for himself.  When he took over Brian's life he lived in Brian's house while Brian lived in a house very much like the ones we live in.  While Landy had the babt grand piano Brian had and upright piano.  The latter is the type you see in every Chorus room in school.  If any of you are looking for the best description of the Landy years read Catch A Wave by Peter Ames Carlin. 

Gads, I'm going to sound like I'm defending Landy - one of the last people I'm inclined to ever defend.  Brian told me he preferred his upright to a baby grand for composing as the soundboard faced him as he played.  Why Brian didn't have both pianos for obvious reasons would be the bigger question.

Hi all,

Yes, Debbie why Brian didn't have have both types of pianos would be the bigger question.  Brian knows more about pianos than I would.  Yes, he had the best upright.  He would know more about soundboards than I would.  I know that whatever Landy wanted he got.  Manipulators make me sick!!!  The type of Landy did as well as the type that one family member does to another to get their way.  Landy did give Brian pills so that he could control him.  People manipulate because they know they can get their way or are scared of something.  What the latter manipulator doesn't get is that there is a way that things can work out so that everyone can get some of what they want.  Landy wanted total control.  In the end he lost.  I am sure that whomever bought Landy back into Brian's life the second time is kicking himself.  Landy looked at Brian and saw money for himself.  In the end Carl saved the day and Brian's life.  There is a saying that goes to the vicot goes the spoils.  Landy really got the spoils and then got caught.  If everything between Brian and Lady was suppsoed to be between them only then how did his family find out about the revised will?  The Wilson family is wonderful!!!   Thank goodness that Melinda literally ran into him in 1992.  He started dating her again and in 1995 they got married.  She is the reason he is in the best shape he has ever been in since before taking drugs.  We owe Carl, Audree, the grirls, Melinda and the peopel who ruled in Car's favor gratitude.  Now all that remains is to wait until No Pier Pressure comes out.  It will be marvelous!!!  A late Easter gift!!! 

Country Feelin' - Landy
Daddy's Lil Gil - Wilson

I've just gone through this whole thread. There's no opinion I can add about Eugene's methods/character that hasn't already been given.

But I think it speaks volumes upon volumes about Brian that he missed Eugene. What a beautiful soul Brian has.

Brian missing Landy is a classic example of Stockholm Syndrome.

I recently got an Ancestry.com account, and in addition to trying to figure out some personal family tree stuff, I randomly for sh*ts and giggles typed in a few non-family names. Landy was one of them. And lo and behold, I discover that when Landy moved to Hawaii after having been forcibly removed from Brian, he wound up living literally walking distance from a park called Wilson Playground.

I cannot think he was unaware of this when he chose where to live. Creep-a-delic!

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2czdmwi.jpg)


(http://i65.tinypic.com/f4gsy8.jpg)

Interesting...