A Carl Conversation 1974

[Gerry]

I think the fact is unless you've spent a fair amount of time with the Beach Boys in unguarded moments ,. there is no way to know exactly what they are like and how they might react in certain situations. To say  "that doesn't sound like Carl" or " I don't think that's something Mike would do" is to my mind ridiculous and presumptuous.

[Steve Latshaw]

<<I think the fact is unless you've spent a fair amount of time with the Beach Boys in unguarded moments ,. there is no way to know exactly what they are like and how they might react in certain situations. To say  "that doesn't sound like Carl" or " I don't think that's something Mike would do" is to my mind ridiculous and presumptuous.>>

I agree with this statement completely, which is why I said it didn't sound like any of them.

[adamghost]

Ya Adam...I don't think we're debating the Mr. T thing.  It's the other one.  Anyway...I asked about the sound guys bringing folks...not backstage for a 'sec'...but rather to a party where they can just come in, sit down, eat, drink...in fact get ploughed, and just amble over, again sit down and shoot the breeze with the stars of the show.  Generally...from what I've seen along the way...even in the early 70s...those things were controlled to at least some degree.

I mean really?  "Hi Dennis.  Mind if I lie down here in the corner beside you?  I have a couple of questions."

Ya...come on back stranger...and join the 'party'?  I don't think so.

I know you weren't talking about Mr. T.  I only brought it up in passing as an illustration.  I read the thread.

And yup, random people go to backstage parties all the time too.  More so than dressing rooms, I'd say.  I was standing in line at House of Blues one night waiting to see the Raspberries and wound up one on one with Eric Carmen on the back balcony at the end of the night.  It had nothing to do with anyone I knew, it was just pure dumb luck.  It happens.

[Lee Marshall]

Cool.  I used to visit his site a LOT.  And he posted there frequently too.  Then suddenly...it was gone???   BIG Beach Boys fan...ol' Eric.  And he always sounded like a fan too.  I guess we went to different shows...you and I.  I recall many a night when there were NO parties after a BBs show...just some quiet time...a few drinks...a few friends...some hand picked invitees...'cause all of that party stuff catches up to guys who'll be needing their singing voices again...tomorrow.

And the "Im HERE!!!" thing.  Mike was just as likely to be alone outside trying to see something up in the far reaches of the night sky...how the planets were aligned, and what might be shooting across the sky...like  the perseid meteor showers.

The only thing which struck me as even remotely near possible in that whole 'descriptive' was Denny...but not rolled up like a ball in the corner on the floor.  Granted...I wasn't there but...I'm saying that the author wasn't either.

[Pretty Funky]

I'm sure Carl had his moments. His 'Shut up you guys' comment during In Concert shows he could snap when required.

[Lee Marshall]

Absolutely.  I don't think he enjoyed that aspect of things but yes.  Everybody has their limit...and everybody tumbles and stumbles...including Carl D Wilson.

[wantsomecorn]

And yup, random people go to backstage parties all the time too.  More so than dressing rooms, I'd say.  I was standing in line at House of Blues one night waiting to see the Raspberries and wound up one on one with Eric Carmen on the back balcony at the end of the night.  It had nothing to do with anyone I knew, it was just pure dumb luck.  It happens.

Very true -  my dad told me a great story about how he and his friend, at age 19, went backstage at a Who concert and wandered around unquestioned right up to where they were having their private party, when someone guarding the door finally told them to buzz off. 

[Smilin Ed H]

I'm going back to the question I asked earlier which, so far, has been ignoredor at least side-stepped...INSIDERS...Help out here please...the question again was...

"And do sound crew guys get to invite people to come hang out WITH THE BAND after a gig?"


...'cause if they couldn't and didn't...then THIS didn't happen.

I don't know if any of us here would know what the arrangements were back then with this type of thing.  I could see the crew getting a pass or two each to hand out to friends.  But this story sounds as if it were a little bit embellished for effect.  This paragraph:

"I didn’t understand what was going on in their lives at that point in their history. Frankly, I was one of those people who saw them as The Beach Boys, not as Carl, Dennis, Al, Brian, Mike, but as a phenomenon and as the group that expressed what I felt in music. If any one of them felt used, rejected frightened, I don’t think I ever gave that a thought. Later I would find out, through documentaries, that Brian had had a breakdown and was literally in bed, clinically depressed perhaps. That they had a falling out with their father who had been their producer early on. And that Dennis was keeping company with Charles Manson and family."

Makes no sense.  Yeah, Brian had had his problems, but those were well known to the public by 1974.  Yeah, they had had a falling out with their father...in 1965.  Poor Murry was gone by 1974.  And Dennis had kept company with Charlie, but that was back in 1968.  

LostArt, in fairness, there wasn't that much information readily available about the Beach Boys in 1974.  I became a fan in 1976 at age 19, and I could only find one thin (but valuable) volume about them (Ken Barnes', which came out in 1976), and whatever magazine articles that came out around the Brian's Back campaign.   Before Barnes' book there was even less information available, and one couldn't go online and get, for example, the 1971 Rolling Stone article.  (Even if you knew it existed, where would you get it?  At least in Houston, university libraries didn't carry back issues of Rolling Stone).  

Edit: my apologies if you were around back then, and know this very well.  My point is just that what we now take for granted as BB history was not known by everybody.

It wouldn't surprise me that this fan was only casually familiar with the history of the band, and happened to catch Carl on a bad day, even if his account may not be 100% accurate.

As an aside, the Mr. T story raises my esteem for Carl even more!

Ok, not everyone who went to a Beach Boys' concert in 74 knew that the band had three brothers, a cousin and a friend. But you know, if you knew who Brian Wilson was (the leader, composer, arranger etc) you'd certainly know that he didn't tour.

I think this dude happened to go to a get tigether with the band but each time he told the story in the last 4 decades it got more... perfect and rounded. It happens.

And his story as is, makes for a much better reason for him to "turn to jesus" than the probable actual happenings

With that beard and open neck shirt, maybe he thought Carl was Jesus. Everyone son of God has his off day.

[Micha]

But you know, if you knew who Brian Wilson was (the leader, composer, arranger etc) you'd certainly know that he didn't tour.

I respectfully disagree with this notion. Obviously that guy has not followed the Beach Boys' history as closely as we do, as is obvious from the amount of misinformation he displays. But just imagine him having the Today! album as a teenager, playing a lot, looking at the cover with "plus three more songs written by Brian Wilson" on the front (!) and "Produced by BRIAN WILSON" on the back. Then probably after GV he pays no mind anymore until years later he goes to the concert, remembering Brian's name.

If he hadn't just seen Carl in the concert, he wouldn't have recognized him, probably even not even known Carl's name!

And as I said, it is practically impossible that this event went down exactly like he wrote it like a movie scene that goes word for word after the screenplay. But I'm sure it happened in some form and is not entirely fictional, and what he remembers about it is close to what he wrote.

[Wild-Honey]

Hi Micha!    Hmm they wouldn't have had those big screens at concerts either? 

[Micha]

Hi Honey! You mean the guy may have not been close enough to the stage to later recognise Carl? Maybe he was close enough or he recognised the clothes, who knows?

[Wild-Honey]

Micha,  I thought that's what you were getting at?  How did he know who they were?  Eh, forget me, my brain isn't working so well :/   

[Amy B.]

No one is a complete saint 24/7, not even Carl Wilson. Besides, to me it didn't sound like he was actually calling the guy an asshole...he was saying, "if your goal in life is for everyone to love you in a surfac-y way, that makes you an asshole." That's quite different. It sounded to me like he was giving the guy some tough-love advice, and that jibes with "advice-giving Carl," like the time he told Jeff Foskett to play all 6 strings of his guitar. It sounds like Carl was lamenting the soul-sucking aspect of being in a band and advising the guy to find another dream that maybe would be more spiritually fulfilling.

ETA, it always seemed to me that Carl always kept any anger/sadness/resentment bottled up as a protective measure, maybe starting when he was growing up in an abusive household. Just because he was the calm, nice, steady brother does not mean he never felt those emotions.

[Andrew G. Doe]

In 1983, we did Philly first; then we did the National Mall in Washington, D.C.; and then we did Miami.

Nope.

In 1983, on July 4th the band did Caesar's Boardwalk, Atlantic City and... nothing else until the 7th.

In 1984, on July 4th, they did the Washington Memorial and then Lummus Park, Miami.

In 1985, on July 4th, they did  Ben Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia, and then the Washington Memorial.

So, dude who wrote this managed to conflate details of three different years. Of course, to some people, this doesn't matter. Why does it have to be right, huh ? 

[The 4th Wilson Bro.]

No one is a complete saint 24/7, not even Carl Wilson. Besides, to me it didn't sound like he was actually calling the guy an asshole...he was saying, "if your goal in life is for everyone to love you in a surfac-y way, that makes you an asshole." That's quite different. It sounded to me like he was giving the guy some tough-love advice, and that jibes with "advice-giving Carl," like the time he told Jeff Foskett to play all 6 strings of his guitar. It sounds like Carl was lamenting the soul-sucking aspect of being in a band and advising the guy to find another dream that maybe would be more spiritually fulfilling.

ETA, it always seemed to me that Carl always kept any anger/sadness/resentment bottled up as a protective measure, maybe starting when he was growing up in an abusive household. Just because he was the calm, nice, steady brother does not mean he never felt those emotions.

One of the more intelligent posts I've seen so far in this thread.

I don't know if this guy's account was real or entirely fabricated.  But to dismiss it completely by presuming to know how Carl would react in that situation is more laughable than anything the blogger wrote.  It's certainly unlikely that his account jibed exactly with what – if anything – might have happened on a particular night 40 years ago.  But to flatly call the man a fraud because "this just doesn't sound like Carl" is silly.

I get the feeling that at least some of the ridicule aimed at the writer may have more to do with the man's profession of faith than to any knowledge of what may or may not have transpired that night in 1974.

[Steve Latshaw]

<<One of the more intelligent posts I've seen so far in this thread.
I don't know if this guy's account was real or entirely fabricated.  But to dismiss it completely by presuming to know how Carl would react in that situation is more laughable than anything the blogger wrote.  It's certainly unlikely that his account jibed exactly with what – if anything – might have happened on a particular night 40 years ago.  But to flatly call the man a fraud because "this just doesn't sound like Carl" is silly.
I get the feeling that at least some of the ridicule aimed at the writer may have more to do with the man's profession of faith than to any knowledge of what may or may not have transpired that night in 1974.>>

My opinion has nothing to do with the guy's faith.  I share his faith.  If anything, I'm frustrated that he's using what appears to be a fictionalized story to witness.

[The 4th Wilson Bro.]

<<One of the more intelligent posts I've seen so far in this thread.
I don't know if this guy's account was real or entirely fabricated.  But to dismiss it completely by presuming to know how Carl would react in that situation is more laughable than anything the blogger wrote.  It's certainly unlikely that his account jibed exactly with what – if anything – might have happened on a particular night 40 years ago.  But to flatly call the man a fraud because "this just doesn't sound like Carl" is silly.
I get the feeling that at least some of the ridicule aimed at the writer may have more to do with the man's profession of faith than to any knowledge of what may or may not have transpired that night in 1974.>>

My opinion has nothing to do with the guy's faith.  I share his faith.  If anything, I'm frustrated that he's using what appears to be a fictionalized story to witness.

Not at all certain I was referring to you, Steve (I'd have to go back and review the thread).  Several posters did, however, make light of the man's "come to jebus" (or something similar) experience.  I just find those kind of remarks distasteful, and it really has nothing to do with my personal faith or lack thereof.

I would, however, be interested to know what it is that makes you so certain it was a "fictionalized story."

[Steve Latshaw]

I'm not certain it was a fictional story.  I have no way of knowing for sure.  But based on my experiences around these guys in the late seventies, early eighties and in more recent years, in backstage, bar and other social situations during tours, none of this rings true. 

Also - the dialog, as someone posted above, is too hokey to be believed.  I've made quite a few films and written quite a few scripts, a very small handful might even be called good, or adequate.  And the scene as written is what's known in the jargon as "too on-the-nose."  As posted above, we start with the young fan, starry-eyed, seeing his rock and roll idols.  He tries to make small talk with Carl, who, instead, asks him a profound question about life.  The young fan's answer allows Carl to illustrate just how shallow the kid's dreams are.  And then, as if by magic, Carl shows him the results of such shallowness... drunken debauchery in the form of Dennis... uncontrolled ego with attendant groupies in the form of Mike, and then a final stinger showing the kid that he'll just go down the same road... an "asshole" like the others.  A beautiful, teachable moment.  It's almost Dickensian. 

[The 4th Wilson Bro.]

I'm not certain it was a fictional story.  I have no way of knowing for sure.  But based on my experiences around these guys in the late seventies, early eighties and in more recent years, in backstage, bar and other social situations during tours, none of this rings true. 

Also - the dialog, as someone posted above, is too hokey to be believed.  I've made quite a few films and written quite a few scripts, a very small handful might even be called good, or adequate.  And the scene as written is what's known in the jargon as "too on-the-nose."  As posted above, we start with the young fan, starry-eyed, seeing his rock and roll idols.  He tries to make small talk with Carl, who, instead, asks him a profound question about life.  The young fan's answer allows Carl to illustrate just how shallow the kid's dreams are.  And then, as if by magic, Carl shows him the results of such shallowness... drunken debauchery in the form of Dennis... uncontrolled ego with attendant groupies in the form of Mike, and then a final stinger showing the kid that he'll just go down the same road... an "asshole" like the others.  A beautiful, teachable moment.  It's almost Dickensian. 

LOL.  I certainly see your point – and it's a valid one, indeed.  And as for sharing any time with the Boys, I'm sorry to report that I never had the opportunity.  So I guess I'll defer to someone who knows them and their tendencies much better than myself.

[Lee Marshall]

As for the religious aspect...I never saw THAT until sometime yesterday.  I completely missed it when I read the script the first time.  That had nothing to do with my suggesting that THAT didn't sound like something Carl would just launch into.  Maybe down under in Australia when he was 'pissed' but not so much back then in the mid 70s.  Not suggesting that Carl was a saint. [or perfect]  Carl reacted to situations the way many would as has been mentioned here several times..

I'm just saying that the man had a most special kind of 'heart'.  We was a warm person and I just can't see him teeing off on a poor unsuspecting fan who just showed up in his face seemingly out of the blue.

Lorren Daro and I could both use his magical 'recall' ability though.  "TOO ON THE NOSE" indeed.  

[The 4th Wilson Bro.]

As for the religious aspect...I never saw THAT until sometime yesterday.  I completely missed it when I read the script the first time.  That had nothing to do with my suggesting that THAT didn't sound like something Carl would just launch into.  Maybe down under in Australia when he was 'pissed' but not so much back then in the mid 70s.  Not suggesting that Carl was a saint. [or perfect]  Carl reacted to situations the way many would as has been mentioned here several times..

I'm just saying that the man had a most special kind of 'heart'.  We was a warm person and I just can't see him teeing off on a poor unsuspecting fan who just showed up in his face seemingly out of the blue.

Lorren Daro and I could both use his magical 'recall' ability though.  "TOO ON THE NOSE" indeed.  

I was basically playing the devil's advocate regarding the guy's story.  I thought – still do, actually – that too many posters dismissed the story entirely, when it is possible that he either just embellished it or maybe didn't relate the details with complete accuracy.  I think it's also quite possible that the guy was either unable to relate Carl's remarks in their proper context, or that the context may have been lost on him altogether.

Anyway, if my reaction to the thread made it seem like I was being critical of Carl, heaven forbid.  There is no one – NO ONE – who holds Carl in higher esteem than I.  The man is my idol, has been for almost 50 years.

[Steve Latshaw]

<<Not suggesting that Carl was a saint. [or perfect]  Carl reacted to situations the way many would as has been mentioned here several times..>>

And I've been on the receiving end of Carl's famous stink eye.  In May of 1983, I was working for a radio station at the time (WTAO-FM - Murphysburo-Carbondale, IL) as a DJ.  I was down in Memphis for a Beach Boys show (Firefall opened... 5/31/83, Mid South Fairgrounds, thanks to Mr. Rusten and Mr. Stebbins).  We were in the hotel bar before the show.  Dennis and Bruce were standing next to me as I had a conversation over beer with Carl about his new solo album.  Among other things, I told him I was pushing the program director to add a couple of album tracks from Youngblood.  Carl remarked that it would be great to hear it on FM radio... he said, "All that compression..."

I looked at him, dumfounded.  I was a DJ.  A voice guy.  And relatively inexperienced at that time.  I didn't know compression from capital gains in 1983.  I hemmed and hawed, finally saying, "...yeah, that does make it better, right?"

At that moment he and I both realized that he knew I didn't know what I was talking about.  He raised his eyebrows and I smiled and turned back to my beer, feeling like the idiot I was.  A dinner and desert evening with Carl, Gina and some friends later that year made up for it but, whew... you didn't pretend to know what you didn't around that guy.  No tolerance for B.S., and rightly so.

[Lee Marshall]

No I didn't get the sense that you were being critical of Carl from your post [ s ].  It was more about wanting to let you know that I wasn't poopin' on the guy because of anything religious.  I am NOT religious but I understand that some folks see a benefit in it.  I am not here...or anywhere else for that matter...to ridicule them.  While I'm not 'religious'...I AM spiritual.  There is a difference.

[The 4th Wilson Bro.]

No I didn't get the sense that you were being critical of Carl from your post [ s ].  It was more about wanting to let you know that I wasn't poopin' on the guy because of anything religious.  I am NOT religious but I understand that some folks see a benefit in it.  I am not here...or anywhere else for that matter...to ridicule them.  While I'm not 'religious'...I AM spiritual.  There is a difference.

Not a problem.  As a footnote, let me say that I also don't consider myself a religious person.  To me, that term is more about "ceremony" than it is about faith or (your preference) spirituality.  I consider myself to be a person of faith, though I have absolutely no problem with anyone using the word "spiritual."

[mikeddonn]

In 1983, we did Philly first; then we did the National Mall in Washington, D.C.; and then we did Miami.

Nope.

In 1983, on July 4th the band did Caesar's Boardwalk, Atlantic City and... nothing else until the 7th.

In 1984, on July 4th, they did the Washington Memorial and then Lummus Park, Miami.

In 1985, on July 4th, they did  Ben Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia, and then the Washington Memorial.

So, dude who wrote this managed to conflate details of three different years. Of course, to some people, this doesn't matter. Why does it have to be right, huh ?  

Andrew, I posted that on the previous page but nobody bothered to read my post! . I also cracked a joke about Mr T (BA Baracus) and planes!  Oh well...

I was also wondering why everyone seem quick to believe the T story about Carl, which contained errors, but seemed to dismiss the 1974 story out-of-hand.