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Author Topic: The Lorren Daro Thread  (Read 233833 times)
Mikie
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« Reply #400 on: January 24, 2015, 09:35:56 AM »

Well, yes, "cute" (leaving the other part for others to contemplate...) is actually an understatement when it comes to Wild-Honey...I think we are all happy to have her back from a bit of a hiatus here, and not just because of her looks, either.

Yes we are!  Looking forward to many more posts from her in the future.
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #401 on: January 24, 2015, 09:52:55 AM »


It worked well with ‘Surf’s Up’ and ‘Heroes and Villains’, but not with ‘Smile’, or much of the other stuff they did together.


Hi Lorren,

Based on my reading of the above and another post, I think you may not realize that "Surf's Up" and "Heroes and Villains" were both part of Smile. I point this out only to reemphasize to the group that it still seems we're expecting you to have a command of the kind of facts that come so naturally to us, but that are less meaningful from your perspective.

"Sail on Sailor" was worked on by Brian and Van Dyke a number of years after their Smile collaboration. Recent evidence that I've seen relayed here suggests that the kernel of the idea for that song was much more Van Dyke's than Brian's. Later the song was worked on by several other writers, with the final product being a true example of a song written by committee.

I, for one, am really enjoying these posts and our interactions with you.

If you want a good timeline of B. Boys/Brian activities that might jog your memory, I suggest you visit Andrew Doe's gigs and sessions timeline (with much of the background research done by Ian Rusten and Craig Slowinski, both members of this site, among other people Andrew names on the landing page) at http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs.html

Nothing any of us could reconstruct for you here could possibly compare.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 10:10:16 AM by Jesse Reiswig » Logged
Les P
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« Reply #402 on: January 24, 2015, 10:03:56 AM »


With Brian, the most influential subject was metaphysics. I began with easy books: Gibran, Krishnamurti, Gina Cerminara’s bio of Edgar Cayce, Alan Watts on Zen. Then came a lot of talk about those ideas and going deeper along the way. Brian lapped it up like ambrosia. I helped him apply those ideas of universal love, logic and justice to his frustrations and a lot of it worked for him. He began to see things in a larger way. It calmed him down and created a base for thinking in a philosophical way. I saw the results in his songs later on.

Lorren, thanks for all the interesting posts.   Can you please name some songs in which you see this direct metaphysical influence?
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Lee Marshall
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« Reply #403 on: January 24, 2015, 12:33:01 PM »


Is there another meaning of "booger" that I'm not aware of? Smiley

It doesn't really mean booger Micha.  It's like calling someone a 'good sh!t'...or an 'old fart'...or a 'little booger'...the 'word' loses it's  usual meaning and it becomes 'cute'.  Probably better not to experiment with THESE though.  Sometimes it works.  Sometimes it doesn't.  And it depends WHO it is saying 'it' to which whomever.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 12:35:13 PM by Add Some » Logged

"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #404 on: January 24, 2015, 12:37:04 PM »

Then there's the word "bugger" which has a whole other meaning.

Lorren, you awake yet?  Smiley
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #405 on: January 24, 2015, 12:45:27 PM »

Hope he is.  In bemoaning the fact that the torrent of questions has died down...Lorren missed my last 2.  Back by AGD's posts on the previous page Lorren.  You aren't 'old news' by the way.  The place quiets down on the weekend.  So anyway...while I'm here...a 3rd question to go with the one about Bob Hope/Jack Benny and the other about Smile/Smiley Smile...

....In the group of artistically inclined folks who congregated...did they give Brian the respect he was due...or did they do that thing that the self-proclaimed 'special' people do and pretty much just USE him 'til he was no longer 'amusing'?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 12:47:24 PM by Add Some » Logged

"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #406 on: January 24, 2015, 01:14:56 PM »


Buddhahat: I was at the instrumental sessions, never the vocals. No specific info about ‘God Only Knows.’ I watched Brian and Tony work at the grand piano at the Laurel Way house a couple of times. Boring to watch, actually. Brian played stuff for me all the time. Every time I was at the house, he’d sit down and play fragments of songs and asked what I thought. It was hard to have opinions because they hadn’t taken form yet.

Notice how all this is slowing down? I’m not the new novelty any more. It’s okay. Glad to have had this experience. Some very fine people here…


Hi Lorren,

Thanks for answering another of my questions.

The slowdown is probably a combination of factors - often I notice less traffic here at the weekend but also the thread has cooled down emotionally a bit which is no bad thing imo. I sense those of us who are here are really valuing your contributions, candour and humility in admitting the difficulties in recalling this stuff 50 yrs later. I hope you stick about for a bit longer.

It's ironic to hear that you found it boring watching Tony and a Brian at work at the piano, creating Pet Sounds! I could practically hear the collective jaw of the message board hitting the floor as I read that. I think for many here that period of creativity is charged with a sort of mystical aura but it seems fitting that you are so matter of fact about it. If only somebody had recorded their writing sessions though! As far as I'm aware there's only one recording of Brian demoing a Pet Sounds song - A solo piano version of Don't Talk that appears on the Pet Sounds sessions. It is stunning though.

I have been driving around today with a mental picture of your and Brian's encounter with a foam-eared Phil Spector. Can you remember any other details of that night? What had brought you there - was he a friend of yours, perhaps? Was it just you and Brian or were there others there? We know Brian was in awe of Spector. Did he ask Phil about his work or was he pretty tongue-tied around him? Spector was obviously a huge influence on Brian. Do you remember any resentment from Spector towards Brian, or a sense that he was threatened by this young pretender?!

Best,

Buddhahat
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 02:09:42 PM by buddhahat » Logged

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« Reply #407 on: January 24, 2015, 01:31:01 PM »



It's ironic to hear that you found it boring watching Tony and a Brian at work at the piano, creating Pet Sounds! I could practically hear the collective jaws of the message board hitting the floor as I read that.


No way Budd.  Not a chance.  The floor?  The desk stopped my jaw cold. Wink
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #408 on: January 24, 2015, 02:02:20 PM »



It's ironic to hear that you found it boring watching Tony and a Brian at work at the piano, creating Pet Sounds! I could practically hear the collective jaws of the message board hitting the floor as I read that.


No way Budd.  Not a chance.  The floor?  The desk stopped my jaw cold. Wink
I found his comment to be about right. Watching people write songs is, indeed, boring. It's work, not entertainment.
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« Reply #409 on: January 24, 2015, 02:15:46 PM »



It's ironic to hear that you found it boring watching Tony and a Brian at work at the piano, creating Pet Sounds! I could practically hear the collective jaws of the message board hitting the floor as I read that.


No way Budd.  Not a chance.  The floor?  The desk stopped my jaw cold. Wink
I found his comment to be about right. Watching people write songs is, indeed, boring. It's work, not entertainment.

Indeed, I can imagine this. That jean luc Godard film of the stones recording sympathy for the devil is periodically fascinating and tedious if memory serves ...
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« Reply #410 on: January 24, 2015, 02:16:40 PM »



It's ironic to hear that you found it boring watching Tony and a Brian at work at the piano, creating Pet Sounds! I could practically hear the collective jaws of the message board hitting the floor as I read that.


No way Budd.  Not a chance.  The floor?  The desk stopped my jaw cold. Wink

 Grin
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Lorren Daro
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« Reply #411 on: January 24, 2015, 03:44:14 PM »

Les P: For me, the metaphysical influences began with ‘Pet Sounds’ It was a different style of songwriting. The rocknroll was virtually gone and much deeper issues were being dealt with. This continued with the ever more obscure and non-commercial content of the songs he wrote with VDP. I’m reminded of the career of Herman Melville: He began by writing pure adventure stories that became, little by little, spiritual ones. ‘Moby Dick’ was the perfect blending of the two. The books after that were more and more spiritual, and sales fell off until he wasn’t read at all. Something like this has happened to Brian.

Add Some: Good question: Almost everyone around him, except ML, were in utter awe of Brian. They knew what he was – some kind of musical genius – but appearing in the form of a (don’t go crazy now) simple-minded teenager – kind of like Mozart (another idiot-savant with a stern father).  Brian was never comfortable on television or with celebrities, not even in my living room. Brian’s gifts, which are stunning to us, was just his normal state of being – nothing special, just what he does. Never once did I see evidence of a ‘big head’ on Brian’s shoulders, in fact, he was completely self-effacing.

Buddhahat: “I have been driving around today with a mental picture of your and Brian's encounter with a foam-eared Phil Spector. Can you remember any other details of that night? What had brought you there - was he a friend of yours, perhaps? Was it just you and Brian or were there others there? We know Brian was in awe of Spector. Did he ask Phil about his work or was he pretty tongue-tied around him? Spector was obviously a huge influence on Brian. Do you remember any resentment from Spector towards Brian, or a sense that he was threatened by this young pretender?!”

I didn’t arrange the meeting. Brian had talked to him on the phone and he invited him over. It was just Brian and myself. I think he wanted moral support. Brian was tongue-tied. No real conversation. Spector didn’t know what to make of him. No resentment, no threats. It was Phil Spector, for crissakes. He wasn’t threatened by anything.

Note to All: You may not like what I’m going to say here, but I owe both you and myself the truth as I see it, feel it, believe it. Many of you are asking me the wrong questions. Maybe this will help:

I loved the Beach Boy’s records, but I was not a fan-boy. I didn’t keep track of all the details of their lives and careers, or even the music. I lived in a different social and educational environment. I grew up in Beverly Hills, I graduated from UCLA with a degree in English Literature and worked on a Master’s for a year before I joined MCA as a Junior Agent in 1960. At GAC in early 1963, I founded their first rock department because they asked me to. I was a Beatnik, jazz-loving, Lenny Bruce-loving hipster and an over-educated quasi-intellectual. That’s why me and VDP hit if off immediately.

I say all this because, in light of it, maybe you can understand that I wasn’t interested in a bunch of lower middle class teenagers from the LA suburbs. I was interested in an orchid amongst the dandelions – Brian. I immediately sensed, as many did, that this was a very special person who needed to know more about the world, about what great writers were saying, and about himself. I was a mentor, advisor and protector, not a playmate or pal.

As soon as I got to know him, I realized what he was up against with the troika of Murry, ML and Marilyn. I saw his complete inability to confront them. I saw that I could help him do that, as much for posterity as for myself. I faced off all three of them, which drove them nuts. I built a kind of mental fence around him. I showed him how they were using him, abusing him, exploiting him for their own purposes. Murry wanted to feed off  his fame. Marilyn wanted to mold him into the kind of man she was taught to want growing up in an old-fashioned Jewish household. ML wanted fame, money, chicks and power, and to tell everybody else to f*** off.

I didn’t perceive Brian’s social or musical environment they way you all are doing. I wasn’t collecting minutiae, I was doing social work and therapy. I wanted to give him the balls to stick up for himself and to understand the magnitude of his talent. After the LSD, he began to see things in a different way, and the troika didn’t like it at all. They saw the changes as all my fault, and I became the villain. But, I will tell you here: I don’t give a sh*t what they, or anyone else, thinks or thought. I’m not a fool. I knew what I was doing. Aside from a coat and a nail clipper, I never took a thing from Brian. It was my contribution to the world that I bring it a strong, fully self-aware, enlightened artist. I only got partway there, but it was enough for him to get rid of Murry, to divorce Marilyn, to stop taking sh*t from ML and to find his own artistic path, beyond all the commercial expectations of everyone around him. I helped him do that, and I’m proud of it.

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« Reply #412 on: January 24, 2015, 04:15:13 PM »

Fascinating to get your perspective Lorren, especially as your strong feelings towards the characters involved make the telling feel very much alive for me.

I have read about the tensions that existed and the pressures Brian was under at this time but usually through the writings of a detached third party. It's a different thing entirely to hear a personal, emotional account such as yours.

Unfortunately I have to turn in now but thanks again for taking the trouble to answer all my questions.
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« Reply #413 on: January 24, 2015, 04:16:13 PM »

Lorren, can't you expand on the Mike Love angle from where you were sitting? Are you really afraid he's going to set his legal dogs on you over a thread on Smiley Smile? He's have to sue hundreds of people online if so. Curious about the song credits thing...

Any incident with Mike Love that sticks out after all these years and captures his essence? A bit sulphurous, a bit sweaty: essence of Love. Ask for it by name at fine stores.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 04:22:12 PM by ontor pertawst » Logged
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« Reply #414 on: January 24, 2015, 04:39:53 PM »

Lorren, do you have any picture of Brian during that era. Any pics of the famous sandbox?
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« Reply #415 on: January 24, 2015, 04:57:35 PM »

Hi Lorren,

Random questions:

1. How obvious were Marylin, Murry and Mike in their desire to control Brian?

2. Was it to his face, or behind his back?

3. What methods did each of them use, and was it coordinated in any way?

4. How long after you befriended Brian did you point these things out to him?

5. Did he already seem aware of some of this, and what was his initial reaction to you telling him these things?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:16:15 PM by Tricycle Rider » Logged

Some of our forum members suffer from an acute form of cynicism resulting in a complete lack of patience and manners in the face of anything joyful or optimistic. Try to humor them as best you can for the time being, and one day, with your help, we will find a cure for this devastating disease. This has been a public service announcement.
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« Reply #416 on: January 24, 2015, 05:37:07 PM »

Lorren,

You noted earlier that Brian needed help conveying his thoughts into lyrics, but did he need help coming up with melodies, instrumental arrangements or vocal arrangements?

Thanks, and sorry if this question has already been asked.
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« Reply #417 on: January 24, 2015, 07:22:34 PM »

Lorren,

Can you find this thread now that it's been moved?
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Tell me it's okay.
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« Reply #418 on: January 24, 2015, 09:30:55 PM »


My impression during that visit to Bellagio, was that Brian was frantic and falling apart. All those negative forces were falling in on him. I didn’t get the music I heard. He played several different versions but I couldn’t sort them out. He was clearly on drugs, and it was the last time I was interested in seeing him. There was nothing I could do to help him…


That's a very sad picture.  As his mentor of sorts, did you try to tell him what you saw happening to him?   Was he at all aware that he was falling apart, or was he too caught up in it to realize there was a problem?

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Lorren Daro
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« Reply #419 on: January 24, 2015, 10:25:01 PM »


Buddhahat:  Thank you, as usual, my defender…

Ontor pertwast:  With his money, anger and insecurity, ML wouldn’t hesitate to sue whomever he felt insulted him. If I name incidents, I open myself to legal action. Don’t all of you know who and what he is by now? Essence of Mike Love? Try Zyklon B.

Smiler21: I have a few proof sheets from that era. I showed them to David Leaf. He didn’t find them usable, and he was right. I didn't want to seem like a fan snapping pictures. I have no shots of the piano, but I’ve seen some…

Tricycle Rider:

1. How obvious were Marilyn, Murry and Mike in their desire to control Brian?

As obvious as a train wreck.

2. Was it to his face, or behind his back?

Both…

3. What methods did each of them use, and was it coordinated in any way?

Anger, argument, insults, derision -- all planned in advance.

4. How long after you befriended Brian did you point these things out to him?

It took about a month to perceive the lay of the land.

5. Did he already seem aware of some of this, and what was his initial reaction to you telling him these things?

He was aware of all of it. It was driving him nuts. Why were they all so disloyal? Weren’t they supposed to love and honor him? His reaction when I finally sat down with him and told him what I thought, was like a great weight lifted off his shoulders. Here is someone who understands and can probably help me. Things got better from that moment on.

Clinikillz: As far as I could tell, Brian needed no help whatsoever with any musical aspects. The lyrics were a different thing: He had ideas, but they had to be converted into rhythm, hooks and meter. Brian’s musical education came from the leader of a famous singing group, The Four Freshman. I forget his name. He taught Brian modern harmony and song construction. Without him, Brian would have been lost. He owes him everything. I met him once in the studio.

Runnersdialzero: What thread is that? I’m on ‘The Lorren Daro’ thread right now. Is there another?

Les P: See my answer to Tricycle Rider. Brian wasn’t falling apart. He was frustrated and nerve-wracked and isolated. And he was definitely aware of the problem but didn’t know how to deal with it.

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« Reply #420 on: January 24, 2015, 10:48:25 PM »

Hey Lorren,

You stated - "I was interested in an orchid amongst the dandelions - Brian"

So my question is - what are your thoughts on Dennis Wilson's musical abilities / contributions to the BB's?  Have you heard his 1977 solo album "Pacific Ocean Blue"?  In my opinion, Brian wasn't the only genius in that family.

Thanks,
OHD
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« Reply #421 on: January 25, 2015, 12:04:44 AM »


I didn’t perceive Brian’s social or musical environment they way you all are doing. I wasn’t collecting minutiae, I was doing social work and therapy. I wanted to give him the balls to stick up for himself and to understand the magnitude of his talent. After the LSD, he began to see things in a different way, and the troika didn’t like it at all. They saw the changes as all my fault, and I became the villain. But, I will tell you here: I don’t give a sh*t what they, or anyone else, thinks or thought. I’m not a fool. I knew what I was doing. Aside from a coat and a nail clipper, I never took a thing from Brian. It was my contribution to the world that I bring it a strong, fully self-aware, enlightened artist. I only got partway there, but it was enough for him to get rid of Murry, to divorce Marilyn, to stop taking sh*t from ML and to find his own artistic path, beyond all the commercial expectations of everyone around him. I helped him do that, and I’m proud of it.



1, You clearly do as proven by many of your posts.

2, Yes, you really were a wonderfully positive influence.
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« Reply #422 on: January 25, 2015, 02:49:51 AM »


 I wasn’t aware of Brian destroying tapes. My impression during that visit to Bellagio, was that Brian was frantic and falling apart. All those negative forces were falling in on him. I didn’t get the music I heard. He played several different versions but I couldn’t sort them out. He was clearly on drugs, and it was the last time I was interested in seeing him. There was nothing I could do to help him…


Yes, clearly you loved Brian so very much. Are you too over educated to understand the term 'fairweather friend'?
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« Reply #423 on: January 25, 2015, 04:35:49 AM »

Speaking here, not as Lorren Daro's self-appointed defender (a role that has probably outstayed its welcome for all involved) but for myself, as somebody who is enjoying the opportunity to ask him questions:

This is obviously an open forum but is it really necessary to keep butting in with this petty moralising? It's not even that clear what's being railed against from these last two posts.

Some members took offense at Lorren's intial comments and expressed their ill feeling. Fair enough. Lorren has had the decency to explain the motivation behind his more controversial comments, to take reponsibility for that which he agreed was too angry in tone, and even to temper his subsequent replies here so as not to cause unnecessary offence. He even offered a disclaimer before some of his recent answers:

Note to All: You may not like what I’m going to say here, but I owe both you and myself the truth as I see it, feel it, believe it. 

I guess my point is some of us here are clearly benefitting from the chance to pick Lorren's brains. Is it too much to ask that:

1. If you really feel offended by what he has to say, you at least word it in a less petulant way?

2. Ask yourself if your contribution has any value other than attempting to derail the thread?
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Micha
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« Reply #424 on: January 25, 2015, 04:39:36 AM »


Is there another meaning of "booger" that I'm not aware of? Smiley

It doesn't really mean booger Micha.  It's like calling someone a 'good sh!t'...or an 'old fart'...or a 'little booger'...the 'word' loses it's  usual meaning and it becomes 'cute'.  Probably better not to experiment with THESE though.  Sometimes it works.  Sometimes it doesn't.  And it depends WHO it is saying 'it' to which whomever.

Thanks for explaining! Smiley No, I won't experiment, as English is not my first language so I'm not aware of all subtleties. I'm aware of some, I recall an incident on German TV when a show host called an American guest a "big woman", innocently meaning "tall woman", unaware of that "big" can mean "fat" in a way, causing ill feelings.


I’m reminded of the career of Herman Melville: He began by writing pure adventure stories that became, little by little, spiritual ones. ‘Moby Dick’ was the perfect blending of the two. The books after that were more and more spiritual, and sales fell off until he wasn’t read at all. Something like this has happened to Brian.

IIRC "Moby Dick" wasn't a success until after Melville's death (Coincidentally, I re-read it last year or the year before, and I can see why that was), while Brian got to witness the deserved appreciation Pet Sounds and SMiLE received. I guess we're all happy about that. Smiley
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Ceterum censeo SMiLEBrianum OSDumque esse excludendos banno.
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