The Smiley Smile Message Board

Or am I just having a senior moment and can't find it ?

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,13147.0.html

Yep, Pulled; like Roast Pork!

No, the recent one... like yesterday...

Yeah, it's gone.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,19570.msg493847/topicseen.html#msg493847 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,19570.msg493847/topicseen.html#msg493847)

Brian demanded it.  ;D

Whatever the reason... good call. Made me feel unclean.

Lock it. Delete any content that may cause genuine legal exposure for the Chairman of the Board.  Note such reasons or trade offs in the post.

But to vanish an entire, and somewhat visible, thread?

I missed it entirely. How do I read the unreadable?

I wouldn't have pulled it. It might have been uncomfortable but it should be kept - locked if need be - as a matter of record.

I was also a bit surprised to see it gone.  Not that I think removing the thread, or at least closing it, was a bad idea; he did, after all, start spewing false information and ad hominem attacks (against Marilyn Wilson, of all people!) from his first post.  I was just a bit surprised that it vanished without warning; for a moment, I wondered if I'd imagined the whole thing.

I'm not a lawyer, and anyone can sue anyone, especially here in the United States, but I don't know that I've ever worried about "legal exposure" from something someone else has said on this board.  But thank you for thinking of me.   :)

Maybe you did...

Maybe we all did...

Did "Lorren Daro"  get the banhammer ?

It's unfortunate that it was nuked.  We could have learned something.

For better or worse, you did not imagine it.

How certain are people that it was the real Darro?

Yes, it was a bad acid trip we all took...

It's Over Now!

A bit of a shame this. I'm presuming this new nervousness is due to Brian's presence on the board. Either that or Brian's people directly requested it.

Wonder if it's worth directing any questions direct to Daro's blog then posting the responses here, just minus the defamatory stuff?

Is it over?  Why?  Don't want to duplicate the error.  I have to imagine that the SS membership was "pulled" too?  An explanation is due is it not?  The guy's facts were severely off in at least a couple of different cases.  But THAT isn't why the thread didn't fly.  Not the kind of guy Dan Quayle would have described as a "happy camper".

[Sure was highly entertaining though...I gotta say.]

Pretty sure the Darro thread on the Hoffman board was pulled down too.

Fishy.

Even though I didn't agree with the tone of the thread, deleting it and pretending it didn't exist isn't the way it should've been handled.

Maybe Brian will stand up for him and say "yeah, it's all true, I've been lying to everyone all these years".

Not.  ;D

What a strange thread. He insulted virtually everybody Brian has ever known and worked with. Then he claimed Brian didn't write the lyrics to any of the songs The Beach Boys recorded. My favorite part was when he claimed that Capital records refused to release Smile. How can you release an album that was never finished?

I don't think it's a shame at all. The guy sounded like an angry, bitter, old fart! The name-calling was totally uncool and offensive - even the way he described Brian.

And does he really have that much to add from a historical perspective? I'm more interested in the music and the ones involved in realizing the music.

He won't be missed.

I wholeheartedly support the mods' actions on this.  Disclosure: I count Marilyn among my personal friends, but I am open to differing thoughts and opinions on how she and the Wilson family coped with Brian's mental and emotional state -- as long as they are offered tastefully and respectfully.  Daro elected to take the "low road" instead of the "high road," and therefore will never have my respect.

Lee

The "low road" Lee?  I thought he took the subway...the 'Underground' in London.  Like WAY LOW.

Not fishy. It will be addressed later but I'll leave it at this...there were several things posted in there that crossed several lines that shouldn't have been crossed.

I'm sorry, buddhahat, I respect you as a poster, but it's not exactly right to say like "yes, he might be rude about Marilyn, but he was there, it's a 1st-hand account". But then it means others close to Marilyn have been giving wrong impression of her, including Brian. All I ever heard & seen shows the opposite image, that she was 'loving', 'nice lady', 'good wife'... Yes, she hired Landy, but how could she possibly know about his evil intentions? The guy sounded a bit tipsy coming here all of a sudden & posting his gibberish.

The comments about Marilyn were totally despicable.  The Mike bashing is getting old and the "idiot savant" comment was insulting as well.

It's a shame because I'm sure he had some interesting stories to tell.

Would there be anything left once you edited out the defamatory stuff?

deleted comment...

...having a sudden change of opinion on the matter...

Yep, I was way too kind...

That was not Lorren Daro.

Is this what everyone is addressing here? lorrendaro.wordpress.com (http://lorrendaro.wordpress.com) I missed what was going on in here, but saw this on Facebook this morning.

:-X

I don't share his beliefs about Marilyn. Agreed - all we ever hear about her is positive so his comments are surprising to say the least.

Nevertheless, if we were to ban all threads and posts that in some way insult The Beach Boys, their friends and family, then this board would be pretty thin on the ground.

I sense that the offence caused by Daro's comments is directly proportionate to people's feelings towards those insulted i.e. the board as a whole likes Marilyn and Brian, therefore what an evil man this Lorren Daro must be. Would he have been so readily chased away had he been solely slating Mike Love and Dr Landy? Personally I doubt it.

My point is, as a board, we either permit negative comments about principal players or we don't. Otherwise we might as well draw up a list of who's ok to bash and who isn't. My guess is, the list would be something like this:

Not OK to insult:
Brian, Carl, Dennis, Al, David Marks, Marilyn

OK to insult:
Mike Love, Eugene Landy, Jeff Foskett, Lorren Darro, Charles Manson

Contentious:
Van Dyke Parks, Bruce, Melinda, Darian

^^^ Ridiculous, right? But honestly, I do see evidence of this hypocrisy here.

Also, I see a lot of comments about what a despicable human being Loren Daro is, lower than the low etc. - pretty heavy stuff. Really? Because he called someone he once knew a cow and is willing to explain his reasons? Because he called Brian an idiot savant?? Because he laughed whilst describing Brian's bad trip on Beautiful Dreamer???

All those posters who are such a great judge of character and who are able so confidently to assess Daro's moral worth - have you ever met or spent time with the guy? Again I see a lot of hypocrisy and double standards here.

This.

I initially judged Marilyn's character based on written descriptions, second-hand accounts, and interviews she gave.
Later I met Marilyn in person, and my positive judgment of her character was reinforced.
I initially judged Lorren Daro's character based on written descriptions, second-hand accounts, and interviews he gave.
I have no desire to meet him in person.

Lee

Totally agree, buddhahat, but you're just pissin' in the wind if you're waiting for anyone to actually see your point.  :wall

Nobody on this thread that I've noticed has said that he's lower than low.  What they said is that he took the low road.  That's a very big difference.  Saying someone is "lower than low" is a judgment of character; saying that someone "took the low road" (or the London underground or whatever) is a judgment of specific actions.  In this case, those actions are ones that everyone who saw the thread witnessed.

And call it a double standard if you like, but when someone shows up and says that everything we've been told about Beach Boys history by everyone else is wrong because everyone else is a liar and then starts spewing ad hominem attacks against everyone he can think of in lieu of providing evidence for his new history, my instincts tell me not to trust him.  That in addition to the fact that he was responding to criticisms that no one on this board was making until he showed up and began "responding" to them.

Good description. Too bad though the thread is gone because over night I had come up with a witty way to tell him what I think of him without actually insulting him, using a collage of quotes of what he wrote.

No, this poster won't be missed. Reminded me of KittyKat in a way.

Billy, when is later? And where?

I just think it's lame no one else said what they're saying now to his "face" when he was actually here.

I do get what you two are saying, but at the same time if he really did dislike Marilyn there's ways to express that while still being respectful or at least tactful. To just come in with "she was a moronic cow who ruined everything" is the height of crass and immaturity. Just because he was "there" he shouldn't get a free pass to be rude and careless.

Combined with how he insulted Brian as well, tried to insinuate that everyone Brian ever knew was a jerk (except Darro himself of course) and his story was full of misinformation...I think we can make a few assumptions about what kind of man he is off that. And I don't think anything he'd have told us would have been in any way accurate. Yeah, every first hand account is biased, but the guy really was trying to paint himself as the only good influence in Brian's whole life, the unsung hero of the story and going out of his way to knock everybody down. Was that really worth listening to? I didn't think so. I know some of you did, and it's a shame you didn't get to ask whatever questions you may have had but I say good riddance to him.

Oh, come on. The guy, Daro or not,  wasn't here to share insights or provide information. He was here to inflame. The post title was about answering criticism of his "essay" that was written two years ago and that no one had been discussing, much less criticizing,  since it came out in the first place. He cut and pasted the same comments here and in a dead thread about it over at the Hoffman board.  He claimed he was here to defend himself, "taking on all comers" but all he did was spew invective and get everyone riled up.  Then he disappeared from both boards, with no real information given.

The Hoffman board realized this wasn't beneficial and took the thread down yesterday. Our mods did the same today. Probably had zero to do with Brian popping in and everything to do with the trolling nature of the whole thing. No loss, I say.

I hear you Mujan.  While I didn't appreciate what he said about Marilyn...and while his 'facts' were wrong and while he must have been under the influence of something or other...maybe a libation or 2 too many...I expected there to be some INTERESTING backlash.  And then some entertaining responses.  And while all of this was happening I figured we'd learn something...IF the guy wasn't an imposter.  So I just sort of reacted w/o really saying anything.

But it didn't happen.  It did not continue or unfold as I thought it might.  He came in yesterday.  Saw that Brian had dropped by...likely read a few posts in his thread and left...never to return as it turns out.

I don't need to know a person in order to get an impression.  He made one.  It wasn't favourable.

Like...what a dink.

Really.

Very true. The timing of it as well... was it just some crank out to cause trouble, then?  What with the lack of any kind of new information and a similar put down Brian style... we were probably about due for a hoaxer with a grudge.

His appearance in the Beautiful Dreamer DVD told me a lot. I mean, his physical appearance...

He came across as super-defensive, strident, factually incorrect, and more than a little gaga.

That said, these were his own impressions of people he knew. That's different than some stranger characterizing Marilyn or Brian in insulting terms. If someone were writing a book and interviewed Darro, they might well decide to include those quotes (in context, of course).

Anyway, if the mods decided his thread didn't fit tonally with the board, that's a fair call, imo.

I don't like all the seeming secrecy recently concerning moderator actions. They should be open and tell us what's going instead of making things disappear without so much as a single word. Besides, it's entirely possible to delete and edit posts to get rid of what they don't think is okay, and not just eradicate an entire conversation that many people took part in.

The truly defamatory stuff comprised only 15% of the post while the other 85% was about things nobody (I hope) cares about. He wrote a paragraph defending his I-introduced-Brian-to-LSD story, another paragraph about his nobody-asked-me-but-here's-why-I-changed-my-name-from-Schwartz story, a couple sentences denying that he was ever a 'sycophant' to Brian, and a few more sentences which contain several vindictive accusations toward Marilyn. This board doesn't need any more threads like that.

There was also nothing about him calling Brian an "idiot savant", not sure where that came from.

I didn't see the thread at all, but I WOULD have asked why he changed his name. :)  (And since Beautiful Dreamer came out I thought his last name was changed to "Darg"! Must have been that weird font they used for CG.)

Gotta say that it's hasn't been boring here the last few days...Mike Love checkin' out the board, Loren pissing almost everybody off, Brian says hello...I'm glad I stuck around for it. It surely has broken up the mundane week I've been having.

Well it was to avoid anti-semitic confrontations while living in the "WASP-dominated Monterey Peninsula," in his words. Mystery solved.

I thought it was taken down because there was no mention of the Beatles...   >:D

He called him that in one of his responses.. I saw it myself and it upset me that he said that.. it was like calling him "retarded" or something and I did not like it.. >:(

Totally agree. Loren's mistake was bashing the wrong people. If he had just written that Mike is "devil-like", "fucking slimeball" and the likes the thread would still be up and running, 18 pages at the least.

This place is like the old Male Ego Board but just for one kind of insults. The other kind is out of line, insulting and verboten.

According to something I read, he changed his name to balance the cyphers.

Oh, I could only find a cache of the thread on Google which shows the opening post and nothing else.

yup... it looked like he was saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Brian COULDN'T do Smile without Van Dyke Parks because Van Dyke is a Genius and Brian doesn't know what he's doing (Hence an "Idiot Savant") and that's why Smile was never finished , hence him also saying that Brian didn't write his own lyrics etc, at least that's what I got out of it... maybe others got a different interpretation than I with that remark.. but either way it's disturbing..

I have no reason to believe that wasn't him...
I googled "Loren Daro Productions" and there's a LOT of stuff out there that would seem as though he's legit. He even has a LinkedIn page. I'm not sure if someone would go to those lengths to make Amazon reviews and other stuff attributed to his name.

Anyone want to do some emailing to his gmail account?

I have no idea if it was Lorren or not.

I do not agree with the choice of words and think some of the opinions are out of line in my opinion.

Je Suis Lorren or fake Lorren.

His statements were reposted on his "Brian Wilson and LSD" Wordpress page as an additional comment, where he also continues to claim that I Just Wasn't Made for These Times and Good Vibrations were written about him and his wife, and that BDW had privately confirmed it to him. Too bad he has little credibility at this point.

Exactly.  

We probably could have learned more. We all feel strongly about the drugs, but let the guy speak. We already read a lot of CRAP here anyway, so what do we have to loose? I think, given at least a warning, that his attitude and slanderous disposition could have been adjusted. If he was warned and he kept doing it, then all bets are off. If it wasn't the real Lorren Shwartz/Daro, then of course all bets are off again.

And Buddahat, your posts were all good ones and each one reflected my thoughts exactly about this.

Not what an idiot savant means. It means that Brian was a music genius (Savant), but knows little of anything else, in this case being a lyricist. Just a very harsh way of saying that Brian could not write lyrics close to what Van Dyke Parks did for Smile.

"The guy" spoke - he came out of nowhere, allegedly to correct the criticism of an online article that was over two years old and has no listed critical comments anyway.

Strike one...

His chosen mode of expression was, shall we say, ill-chosen ?

Strike two...

There was nothing new that was in any way credible ("Brian confirmed it to me..." doesn't fly, Orville), there were several gross errors of fact and some of the tales related differed significantly from earlier versions.

Strike three - yer out !

Brian wouldn't have made Smile without Van Dyke Parks. It would have been a different album with a different collaborator. Even if all the melodies existed before the words, the absence of VDP's inspiration and musical input would have made for a very different record.

The term now used for 'idiot savant' is 'autistic savant.' Maybe that is how he sees Brian. I wouldn't have used either term.
I think what he meant is that Brian is highly gifted in the area of music, especially in arranging, harmony, melody writing and production and that he wasn't enough of a lyricist to author a Surf's Up or a Cabinessence.

He flatly stated that Brian never wrote any lyrics, period, that they were the uncredited work of Mike, Usher, Christian et al, as confirmed - like so much of his piece - by Brian in private conversation. Then, illogically, he gives Mike grief for trying to get that credit recognised. Heads I win, tails you loose.

Perhaps that is the answer?  Something is loose?  Maybe what we saw wasn't an imposter or an attempt to falsely accuse, but instead the actions of someone who can't properly remember the past and is empowered by the internet to display that factual failing?

Pulling the thread was a positively Hoffmanesque move. Why not just let the guy have his say and debate him if you don't agree? Way too many people here not willing to even listen to a narrative that contradicts their own. Now cue AGD intoning how we can't believe anything he says because he was wrong about Brian never writing lyrics.

EDIT: See he beat me to it.

Hear, hear!

So Charles...The guy raised some dust...and...as it turned out...still left no tracks?   ???

We're just here...now...following the scent?

This is exactly what I mean. What has his physical appearance got to do with anything? Call yourself a historian? Do you always factor in somebody's appearance when judging the validity of their recollections?

Almost everything has a price to obtain.   

I balance it with what they're saying. He chose to look like a slimeball and giggle his way through a serious and highly contentious topic: doesn't inspire confidence. The bigger question is, WFT was he doing there in the first place ?

As for my credentials as an historian, they may be questionable (many have), but at least I have the balls to post under my own name and not hide behind a pseudonym.

For those interested, I asked Lorren Daro about his claims that he and his wife inspired IJWMFTT and GV respectively. Here's what he had to say. It's up on his site so I presume he won't mind me sharing it here. I'm sure there'll be a lot of skepticism (and fair enough) but I thought some of you might be interested to read it anyway. As always with these things - who knows for sure (apart from AGD of course)? As he voluntarily withdrew from the threads I urge people not to go over to his page and give him further grief about this but each to their own.

Hi, Buddhahat:

Thanks for your support. I left the Smiley Smile site voluntarily. The invective I got was beyond belief. There were some who were rational and encouraging, but not many. This country is so f***ed up…

At the age I knew Brian, I was out of sync with my time. We talked about it many times. I had quit three major agency jobs, sick from the lying. I hated working nine to five, the LA freeways were driving me nuts. etc, etc. The culture was still in the militant fifties. Brian told me directly that he wrote the song for me — out of pity, I assume. Brian, however, was exactly right for his time. That’s why the group was an instant hit. All of Brian’s songs were pertinent for his young audience. The fit with his audience was perfect.

Brian was in love with my wife, Lynda — many were. Sweet and foxy and gentle. She went around saying, “Good vibes”, all the time. Listen to the lyrics, they’re about a girl he loves from afar and can’t have. Since Brian could never say that he wrote songs about me and mine, he covered by saying the one about me was about him — absurd. He claimed that ‘Vibrations’ was about his mother, Audrey. Even more absurd. And, again, he told me directly that the song was about Lynda.

Why should I lie about this? What’s the advantage to a 77 year old man? I’m not the type to brag or make points by claiming his songs are about me. I never cashed in or profited from my relationship with Brian. I only wish to clear my vilified name for having ‘ruined’ Brian — which I did not. I saved him many times by fending off the villains around him — confronting them when he couldn’t.

Thanks for asking. I’m done with this project. You can’t change people’s minds when they don’t want them changed. The essay was enough. What’s that line from Sam Peckinpah? “I want to enter my house justified.”

Well ya...Makes some sense when spelled out THAT way.  But the method he chose to accomplish his goals...wasn't going to get him from here over to point B.  It ain't the people here so much as he himself who sabotaged his intentions'.  As such the chance to enter his house justified was squandered.

Getting another guys attention by hoofing him square in the 'coins' seldom works out as well as the kicker might have envisioned.  Kickees...kick back.

I think that it's (unfortunately) a minority opinion that the thread should have stayed up, but it's one that I concur with. While Daro's remarks were immoderate in places, there was an opportunity to possibly learn something new about the events surrounding Brian Wilson's most creative period. That shouldn't be tossed away due to some initial negativity and disrespect. Marilyn Wilson has endured much worse than those remarks--though I want to be clear that I in no way condone them.

Brian has survived so much more than what at most would be a tempest in a teapot that I must wonder about the motivations involved here. While it might turn out that a) this person is a fake or b) this person is real but is so flawed by age and the bitterness of lingering memory that the result of engagement/interrogation would prove fruitless, it was nonetheless an opportunity that was quickly and summarily flushed down the toilet.

It's clear from what buddahat posted that the chances of this person re-engaging are slim; he made a mistake by coming on with such intemperate remarks, but the nuclear response and the moralizing that's followed in its wake is extremely disappointing. Just what is it that we are afraid of finding out? How could it be any worse that what Nick Kent or Steven Gaines have already put out there??

Let's see what the mods have to say.


Pot. Kettle. Black... and some of us are not American.


Looks like Darro has - most conveniently - forgotten that he's claimed Brian never wrote any of his own lyrics. Those lyrics are unquestionably Mike's, just as the other set is unquestionably Tony's. I call bull, and sh*t.

Oh, and it's Audree, btw.


Answered his own question.

I question that, on these grounds: if one part of his piece can be shown to be totally incorrect, then the credibility of the rest is suspect. So happens he is utterly wrong about Mike & the family influencing the 1991 pseudobiography in any way whatsoever, for the reasons I stated in the original thread, that is that at that time Brian was not in contact with anyone not approved by Landy, and that included the rest of the band and his family, thus there was no possible conduit for any such influence. I doubt Landy would have given it a seconds thought anyway. So, in this respect Darro is at best mistaken, less charitably lying, any way you slice it plain wrong. Ergo, the rest of his narrative is suspect, especially as in places it differs from an earlier version.

So yer tellin' me Mike wrote a song about how he found his aunt Audree to be rather saucy?

(I'm just sayin'! I have no idea what to make of Darro and am honestly bored by most of this brand of drama, I just found this to be kinda funny.)

That's actually funny. :-D I had spotted the inconsistency between claiming Brian wrote no lyrics and Brian writing IJWMFTT and GV about Darro and his wife, but this I overlooked! :)

Anyone who was 'there' and is still alive to tell the story should be allowed to share their side no matter how dubious the claims are, but it's in extremely bad taste to leave up his baseless and acidic remarks, let alone post them one day after The Man Himself visited.

At best, Darro could have said his piece about the lyrics, and then after asking Tony Asher/Van Dyke Parks/et. al for corroboration, we can come away all the more enlightened about the history of these songs.

Short answer: The thread was moved out after word came that the Hoffman forum had deleted the same post and follow-up discussions on their board. The mods who were on board last night discussed this and the decision was made to do the same thing, until further notice. And that is simply what was done. If further clarification is necessary, it can be posted later.

Here's the thing: We all work, we have different schedules, we're not always on board at the same time. Therefore, some of the discussions and decisions that are made can be delayed until another mod or mods can discuss it. Or simply, we may not be on the board when things like this go down, but try to address them when we do get on the board. As in this case. And it's not over.

No one was forced off the board, banned from the board, or in another way asked to leave the board. It was voluntary as indicated.

I never felt any real contempt for anybody in the Beach Boys story, except for Manson & Landy. With Landy, only after the second go around. There is so much Bullhonky out there regarding who are the heroes and who are the villains, that I could never come to any definitive conclusions about anybody who hovered around their inner circle.

Nonononononononono... that NOT what I told you to say. I want my $100 back.  >:(

Fair point about the contradiction. However I don't accept your argument that Daro and his wife can't have influenced the songs because Asher wrote one and Love the other.

We know that Brian brought ideas and concepts in for Asher to flesh out. For example could Brian not legitimately claim to have written Caroline No for Marilyn (or Carol Mountain was it? I'm not as up on this stuff as most here), even though Asher wrote the lyrics? One could argue both Brian and Asher were responsible for the subject matter, no? If Daro did share his experiences of being out of step with the times with Brian, Brian could feasibly have taken that concept to Asher, then subsequently confided to Daro that he wrote the song about him. I'm not saying these things definitely happened but just that it's not beyond reason.

Similarly is Brian's claim that GV was inspired by Audree and the dog thing also bs because we all know Mike wrote the hook?

Personally, I don't think your argument holds up here.

That's where it stands currently, I can only offer the truth as of the present time. I'll hold the 100 in escrow... ;)

Yeah, that literally made my skin crawl the first time I saw it. What kind of trip-sitter, much less "friend" laughs hysterically at a bad trip (or bad phase of a trip) and continues to do so every time it's brought up*? Definitely not somebody I'd want to be around when my consciousness is being expanded.

And I agree, why was he even invited? What did he even have to offer aside from "yeah I gave him acid and laughed in his face while the trip got dark"? I think some of you are vastly inflating his importance. This is a guy whose sole claim to fame is turning Brian onto psychedelics. Hes so hung up about it he's still acting like it's something great accomplishment. But that's not enough--he has to be the inspiration behind two of the best songs as well. And he was the only one who cared about Brian ever. Uh huh.

If he had any interesting anecdotes outside of the trip itself, he could have mentioned them in the essay or initial response. He did not. He wasn't involved in the music and as far as I can tell was little more than a drug hookup. Maybe he might have something cool to say, but he seemed far more concerned with flinging insults at everyone but himself. When I turned it around on him, he had nothing to say. You'd think he'd have thicker skin based on how casually he dishes it out.

* Peter Carlin mentions him "cackling" about it too in the catch a wave book.

If...

It's been proven that he's inaccurate in at least one major instance he relates, so what's to say he's being accurate - or honest - here ?  Just as likely.

Also, this.

Goddammit, what's the world coming to when a man won't stay bought ?   :old

OK...I'm old.  My mind is clouding over.  Memory...not that good honestly.  So...Did Darro say somewhere in one of the items he posted that he couldn't figure out why the guys writing the books about Brian and the Beach Boys didn't talk to him more...or use him as a resource?  I seem to recall that.  Maybe?

I'm guessing that after talking to him...if his 'take' on facts was so off the mark that they MIGHT have thought..."Uhhh...no...let's not go there...that ain't workin'"  Otherwise...why wouldn't they have included more from a source that close to the action?  I say that because I initially figured that if we sat back and let this guy 'go' that we'd learn something.  That's why I wanted the thread to roll.  Fill in some blanks for us...PLEASE.  But one can't fill in the blanks with fiction.  There's nothing to be gained.

And if the other site yanked down his 'thingy'...they must have done so for a reason.  It, I'm guessin', wasn't merely performed as a bandwidth saving measure.

So what looked like a golden goose about to lay some eggs...may, rather, have turned out to be a bull.  [and those weren't golden eggs.]

I'm the one who was most hostile towards him and I'll tell you right now it's not part of some vast cover-up. If we heard SMiLE was completely plagiarized or Bruce ate a kitten or Carl was adopted...I'd want to know about it. It's not about shutting up an alternate viewpoint so much as knocking a pompous and childish man off his high horse. That's how I saw it. The rest of you don't have to be happy about it, but I said what I felt he deserved to hear. If my remarks made him leave, shame on him for slandering people if he can't deal with the fallout. Don't dish out what you can't take in, etc.

If you're referring to the mods, I'd say give them a break. I once called this board badly moderated myself, a claim I now think was untrue and out of line. They strike me as good intentioned people doing the best they can. Whatever was done was for the best, I'm sure, and again not some conspiracy to shut up a dissenting voice.

Buddhahat, for whatever it's worth coming from me I am truly happy you got your question answered and I hope anyone else who had one can do the same. I still think the guy's full of it, reading that email, but that's just my take. I agree with AGD--it's not Brian who even wrote those lyrics and just because Daro thinks Brian was just right for those times doesn't mean Brian himself felt that way. It's not that GV is about Audree, just that she introduced the phrase/concept in his mind. I believe that over Daro, but to each his own.

And it's not the "idiot savant" comment so much as the claim that he was faking mental illness until the 70s that pissed me off regarding Brian. Totally uncalled for, and I'll bet ANYONE else who knew him then would call bullshit on that. Seeing as how he lied about so much else, I trust them over Daro.

Correcto mundo!  I'd rather see someone 'debated' off the board and give him/her a chance to argue the facts than be forced off after a few posts.  So many of us have read all the books and are well-versed enough and know how to reference most of the facts, that I think we are qualified to counter (or correct) someone when they post statements that don't have any proof or haven't already been established as fact.  I mean, AGD usually has a field day with posters and guys like Daro (remember Barbie?) Wouldn't that be more fun than running someone's ass off the board right away?

Stuff like........Brian has always said GV was about the time he was with his mother as a kid and walking past a barking dog in the neighborhood and asking her why some bark at some people and others don't (dogs can hear vibrations from people).  I never heard it was about any one person before.

And Marilyn. I met Marilyn twice and she was very nice to me and my daughter. No question there at all. Same with Diane. But Marilyn was also a very young wife and mother to a rock star which wasn't easy....

My only real regret is that the thread is gone. Even locked, it stood as testament to the degree to which Donnie Darko was acting as knob.

I disliked the way he referred to Marilyn, the "idiot savant" comment and particularly the reference to BW as a "pig" to VDP's silk purse or whatever.

As for the GV inspiration being Brian's secret longing (I wouldnt use the word "love" even though I don't believe the story to begin with…) for his wife… well, that's arse about tit. The LAST person I'd 'fess up about such a lust would be the woman's husband. I'd probably tell him the song was based on something my mum told me about Doog Vibrations…

Still, if the guy's not banned he can come back and explain things in a more civil manner, we'll all learn something (potentially) and he can push his agenda again.

As said in the deleted thread, Mujan stated some very good truths. Much still to be sorted.

Sadly, Van Dyke Parks seems to accept Daro's comments as fact. *sigh*
https://twitter.com/thevandykeparks/status/458458606388531200

What the hell happened between Brian and Van Dyke these past few years???

Notice he's not corroborating them, just saying "oh that's the way it happened? Why am I the last to know?" Definitely a shame he's using this as a passive aggressive dig at Brian. Very disappointing. I'd like to know the answer to that as well, and I have to say between things like this and not offering an essay to the SMiLE box set, I'm really starting to think less of VDP. Maybe whatever happened is Brian's fault but at least he's not wasting his time making passive aggressive digs online and screwing the fans over it, whatever "it" is.

okay thanks I didn't know that,,thanks for telling me,, ;D

May I mildly point out that I, personally, ran no-one off in this instance ? I stated my problems with the article and the poster... and next thing I knew, the thread was gone.

That said, he would have jumped ship anyway, as he didn't strike me as someone amenable to correction and reasoned argument. His basic tenets were "I was there" and "Brian told me...".

If anything scared him off it was probably Brian joining the forum. Suddenly he can't play up the "I'm the one who was there, I'm the authority on this" angle when Brian could easily come and say "Yeah...none of this is true. And shut up about my first wife, ya knob."

Yup, that was a true "piss or get off the pot" moment.  ;D

Andrew, your logic in dismissing this person (mostly) out of hand is flawed. Could any of us stand up to highly pointed, lawyer-like scrutiny about details of events that occurred fifty years previously?? Of course not. But we can apply standards to folks here whenever we choose to, and believe that we are being rational when, in fact, we are not.

Everyone here has some vested interest in the narrative of Brian's life, particularly WRT the cauldron of controversy and chaos that still swirls around the SMiLE project (and yes, more than a decade since the matter was supposedly "settled"). And that does color much of the discussion here. I think buddahat exaggerates a little bit about sacred cows, but IMO he's dead on with respect to how certain parameters ebb and flow throughout the significant discussions that deal with history and personal lives. (The music itself is a different matter.)

I read the entire thread as it was happening yesterday and it was clear that Daro was attempting to respond to all comers, doing what anyone who found himself in something akin to a "state of siege" would do--look for those who were responding with what appeared to him to be a civll tone and trying to build some kind of sense of exchange. But he was soon overwhelmed by the various escalating flavors of hostility (of which yours, of course, is merely the most pungent...) and he did what almost everyone would do in that situation--he bailed out.

I'm sure you'll disagree about your tone and call it "reasoned"--but it wasn't. It was part of a feeding frenzy that came to an abrupt conclusion because Daro left--as several folks in the thread lamented at the time.

Now did Daro start out with assertions that were uncivil and inflammatory? Oh yes, he did. But let's be honest: is it necessary to resort to similar tactics and tone so quickly, as if we have these itchy, highly sensitive trigger fingers that force us to draw out our verbal Colt-45s or personal nuclear devices at the first sign of offense? No, it isn't. And there were clearly enough people doing just that in the thread to make it into something ugly enough that the moderators here decided to wipe it away without so much as making a formal announcement.

That's bordering on hysterical behavior, and is an unfortunate blight on the records of guys who I think usually do a fine and courageous job of dealing with what goes down here. Again, I ask: just what is it that we are afraid of finding out? That Brian Wilson isn't perfect? That he was troubled? That he may have had to resort to some passive-aggressive tactics to deal with the "frenzy of renown" and his always tetchy relationship with Mike Love and his father? All Daro would do is provide additional details (some of which would doubtless be highly colored by his own point of view) that would fill in a story that has already been sketched out.

Mujan, your last post is highly speculative at best. There's no way to know if Daro ever knew that Brian was here. And we've lost the chance of them actually meeting up here, and having your fantasy exchange between them actually take place. And note that Andrew is conveniently agreeing with you--agreeing about something for which there are no facts in evidence.

Not defending whoever the poster was (real or hoax) but it is possible that GV could have linkage to the wife.  Asher wrote his lyrics tuned to what Brian wanted the song to be about, right?  He didn't just write about whatever he (Asher) wanted to.  Brian would say something like, "This song is about  such and such and so I want lyrics that say this and this."  Asher would then write to that topic/idea/whatever.   So it is possible that Brian relayed the thing about this friend of his having a hotty wife who says "good vibes" all the time and also how this connects to a memory he has from childhood of his mom telling him that dogs sensed peoples vibrations (like E.S.P. or whatever)  and this could have been the origination of that song.   IJWMFTT could have been about Daro, or Brian himself - or a lot of people I would imagine (all of the above even).  
I know this is all could have beens and maybes, but it is a possibility.  
Except, I suppose, that Brian states otherwise (and as far as I know always has) - and so, in that event,  this whole post of mine is basically moot and useless.....sigh.  Oh well.    :-\

Nah, Brian (or Melinda or whoever posted for him) is definitely not going to engage in any argument with Daro or make comments on the board. Brian's posts will be all business and all positive and maybe a Q&A before his record is released if we're lucky. Nothing controversial. In fact, I'd be very surprised if "he" posts again here in the near future. Just like his own board (which he hasn't posted on in quite awhile). Touch and go - here he is, then gone. Doubt very much Daro bailed because he saw Brian's one post.

I'm out. Better things to discuss elsewhere.........like bootlegs.  :P

A question. Why suddenly decide to respond, and most immoderately, to perceived criticisms of a blog post that was over two years old ? Which criticsms, I might add, were deleted, assuming they ever existed: the blog as I saw it yesterday had precisely two comments, one of which was lauding it and the other begin from Darro himself dated within the last few days.

As for my post being pungently hostile... I merely listed the most annoying/improbable aspects of it. I'd like to eb able to read it again to check, but that's my recollection.


The nonsense about Brian's pseudobiography wasn't 50 years ago, but rather 24. As I've pointed out, there was no possible way that the band or the family could have influenced the content - and that they tried to sue Brian over it is proof they didn't - yet Darro insists, or strongly infers, that this was the case, that he specifically was excluded from the book by orders of 'the family'. Simply put, he's not that important in the BB cosmos, except in his own mind. As someone stated, he's famous as the guy who gave Brian acid, and what did his #1 buddy have to say about that ?

"I should have passed on the LSD and marijuana and all that, It kind of screwed my mind up" [2015]

"I did my dose of LSD... it shattered my mind. I came back, thank God, but I don't know in how many pieces" [1976]

No, actually your post addressed good alternate points of view. I thought about that too - Ashers' lyrics tied to the wife. Who knows? We didn't get a chance to clarify or put to rest!

Well...I disagree a tad...with Don.  There is a way to know that Darro knew Brian was here.  I saw it with my own eyes.  The list of those viewing the board is listed and refreshed every time you move from topic to topic.  Darro was here for at least 10 minutes while Brian was 'in attendance'.  I saw it and took note of it...as i was interested in his continuing with his 'story'.  I was disappointed when he bailed.  And I mentioned it in the thread.  [now erased]

As he progressed initially...his verbiage deteriorated.  It could be that he was in a hurry.  It could be that he was getting tired.  It could be that he was drinking as he hovered and waited to respond to responses.  For whatever reason his level of comprehension or at least the ability to communicate lessened.

Remember this though.  He challenged everyone to come and give him their worst.  Right from the get-go he expected us to talk out of our asses and that he was ready for it...because HE knew the real facts.  But he didn't did he?  He knew BS.  He knew how to slam Marilyn and Mike.  He knew that Murry was a bit of a dink.  No debate there I wouldn't think...although the word "bit" might be changed.

The guy could have been interesting.  He could have been an historical asset.  But he seemed instead to be more of a guy who took too many trips without a suitcase.

Interesting and well-considered theory. Alas, it founders on the rock of Asher's "GV" lyrics being merely a place-holder (evident from the clumsy scansion), as he told me when I asked about them. They were never intended to be the final item.

Some of it could both be true at the time possibly. Brian could have had the idea from his Mom and still also been writing it for Linda because she also used the phrase. Anyway he was just saying that is what Brian told him wasn't he?

Marilyn could have been sweet as pie and i believe with no need for proof that she was/is and still sour towards a guy she may not have trusted or thought was the cause of harm toward her husband.

Lorren backed off on the lyrics but really how DO we know Brian wrote any of the lyrics attributed to him? I'm not saying that Lorren is right or that Brian didn't write any lyrics, I beieve he did,  but how do we know? Maybe Brian will answer that one himself. (batting my eyes toward Brian)

Andrew, I was merely indulging in some humor there, based on your well-established persona. I refer to the collective effect, and not to you personally. My apologies if it reads another way.

Again, I think to categorically assume that Daro could be dismissed out of hand from one or two pointed questions is unfounded. It reads to me like justifying collective behavior (and rationalizing what appears at the moment to be akin to a "cover-up) after the fact.

It is not one of the board's best moments, and it is odd and sad that it occurred on the same day that Brian posted here. I do not think, however, that it makes sense to try to connect those dots.

Loren Daro is, according to these posts, 77 years old and has probably created more problems for himself "per capita" due to his own personality than any ten of us here. He may have some justification for feeling haunted and hounded: without a more sensitive set of interactions, we likely will never know that (or not). Opportunity missed, even if odds are 70%+ that it would prove a dead end.

You'd be like that too, Lee, if you started receiving incoming flak from posters!

Ya Mikie...I suppose so.  But I sure as sh*t wouldn't have opened the converstation quite the same way he did.  I mean come on man...as they say in the pre-game NFL shows...come on man.  He said he expected it.  I wanted more from the guy.  I was, at the very LEAST, expecting to be both entertained and informed.  T'was a failure on both counts.

Yet here we are still yackin' about it.  He can SEE that right now if he wants to.  He hasn't been banned.  He can come back and try again...more reasonably.  If he has points to make they can still be made.  If you can teach a 77 year old dog new tricks he can come again...differently.  I would welcome it.  But if he's just gonna make sh*t up and bounce off the walls again?  Forget it.

Who knows about the timing but his sign off in response to my question suggests a need to tie up loose ends for himself. For all we know he might be ill. Why suspect though that there is any other motivation than a man trying to clear his name? People were pretty negative about him post the beautiful dreamer doc and, in all honesty, I never really understood that reaction. So he giggled? I had a terrible bad trip in a house full of friends as a teenager. These people liked me but still couldn't help pointing out how hilarious my behaviour was the next time I saw them. And I had to concede - there was comedy despite my terror at the time.

Some posters here are way too protective of Brian IMO. I suspect him hiding his head under a pillow or whatever may well have been funny at the time and Daro picturing that moment maybe experienced genuine mirth. Only retrospectively with knowledge of the terrible dark times Brian would encounter does the anecdote take on a more tragic dimension. But why do we demand that everyone be so sensitive around Brian's mental health issues? Why not laugh at some of the craziness like Lorren does in the doc? Wait - we do laugh at Brian's craziness, frequently. Be it the Norbit comment or Brian getting iggy pop and alice cooper to sing shortenin bread or whatever. Just because we see the funny side, doesn't mean we don't care about the tragedy also.


Thank you, eloquent voice of reason!

Oh crap, Mott's batting his eyes again. There goes the neighborhood...

Hasn't Tony Asher or Brian said that initially he or Brian were wanting to use the shortened phrase "Good Vibes" but it ended up as "Good Vibrations" for some reason. Am I remembering that or did I dream it?

*deleted*

I'm so full of myself I quote my own posts.

Were I in his situation, I would have been considerably more reasoned and measured: that way folk tend to take you more seriously. Or at least keep the blunderbusses hidden...

Uh... Cam, ol' buddy, ol' pal... try quoting the right post.  ;D

I have never heard that in my almost 40 years of BB fandom. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Actually, yeah, it does.  :)

It's gonna work one of these days. (There all is well now)

Maybe so. I'll scour my archives.

If you've ever scoured your archives, you know how painful it can be.

That VDP twitter comment... anyone looked at the date and time ?

5:13 AM - 22 Apr 2014

No, but I once tethered my coconuts: painful, yet strangely exhilarating.*

[* anyone gets this reference, sir, I tip my hat, and upon my demise Bellagio Towers and all therein shall be willed to you]

Disturbing and no I don't get it.

It doesn't take me long to scour. From e-mail with Tony on April 15 1999:

Me: Did you write your lyric for "Good Vibrations" after that first instrumental tracking session for the song in mid February 1966?<

Tony: No. I don't know exactly when I wrote it in terms of the date. But it was before any sessions. Brian just played a riff on the piano and said that he wanted to write a song about this thing that his mother had told him: that dogs could get vibrations from people, so that's why you shouldn't be scared around a dog when it barks at you. Her theory was that if you acted confident, the dog would get the vibes and leave you alone. All Brian had at the time was a feel and maybe some chord changes.

Me: Was your original title "Good, Good, Good Vibrations"?

Don't remember. Brian wanted the lyric to include "Good Vibes" instead of vibrations. He argued that the expression that everyone used was "vibes" not vibrations. I acknowledged that, but convinced him that using vibes would trivialize the lyric.

Thanks for sharing that exchange Cam.

As you suggested earlier, maybe both inspirations for GV are valid?

Is this thread over yet?  Is it gonna be pulled like the last one? 'Cause anybody reading it doesn't have the original reference thread to read anymore so it's kinda hard to tie it to anything.

Who's gonna win the Super Bowl?

Ah... note, "everyone", not "Loren's hot wife".

Andrew ; No , you did not run this guy off the board; I was sitting here watching the Brian thread , I had just read a post , from I think Mujon, and I saw Daro sign in. He was not on the board long enough to read two sentences , and he signed off, and he never came on again. This was about 4:45 my time ( New York).  I think he just saw the Brian thing , and exited stage left. Quickly.

"Everyone" would include Lorren's hot wife Linda, ol' pal o' mine. (batting my eyes your way)

Just how hot is Lorren Daro's wife?

Yesterday's Daro thread needs to be reinstated and merged with this thread.

I appreciate the work the mods do, but they clearly made a mistake in deleting yesterday's Daro thread after they received news that a similar thread had been taken down on the Hoffman board.  Over on the Hoffman board threads are taken down with regularity, for unexplained and often dubious reasons, but there is no reason for the SS board to follow suit.

The stuff Daro posted yesterday was an update, with some additional info, of stuff he posted on the web in 2012, which was discussed on this board at the time.  Then a big surprise occurred two years later when, after reading Daro's comments, Van Dyke Parks tweeted, "Why am I always the last to know? This explains so much.  Some truth well served."

Personally, I found many of Lorren Daro's comments to come across as vindictive, sophomoric, and inflated in self importance.  His comments about Marilyn Wilson were particularly juvenile and distasteful, and there were obvious inconsistencies, contradictions, and outright bullshit in much of what he said.

In other words, the guy really did himself no favors in posting what he did, but on the other had he was an influential player in BW's life at a pivotal time in BW/BB history, and as students of the history of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys I think it's imperative that we have the opportunity to hear from anyone who played an important role, at one time or another, in the history of the band and its members.

Mods, please reconsider.  Reinstate the original thread, and merge this one with it.  In my opinion Daro further damaged his reputation by posting on this board, but  regardless of what he said, from a historical standpoint Daro's comments need to be part of the discussion on this, the premier Brian Wilson / Beach Boys message board, as do the comments of the SS message board members whose posts were also deleted when the original thread was axed.

Exactly.

When all is said and done, and it's not yet, I'm going with the one who was there at the time. There is no more authentic take on any subject than being present with the players in the same setting at the time it went down. Nothing...nothing can substitute that experience. You may not like the man, or his point of view but don't judge  him on a few posts, give credit where credit is due. He was infinitely closer to the scene than the majority here. In other words, let's not  shoot the messenger because someone here thinks they know better. Were you there in the mid sixties? Did you experience being with Brian and his family like this guy did, huh? Quite honestly, I'd like to see as much light as he cares to shed about all things Beach Boys because there is much more to learn regardless of who you are or what you think you know. 

The mods made the right choice in my opinion.

Patriots

With all due respect, do you even hear yourself? Cover-up? Really? You're giving the whole situation WAY more gravity than it deserves. A raunchy, delusional old man came, said nothing of value, left and the thread was deleted presumably out of respect for Brian. End of story. The only one who ought to be ashamed of what they said in that thread is Daro himself. Perhaps you could argue the thread be reinstated for historical/curiosity purposes, but there's no conspiracy here as you insinuate.

As far as I know, no sites are hosting critical dialogues on him. No one attacked him on his essay page. If he feels hounded he must be the most sensitive man alive--very ironic considering he has no problem saying whatever rude drivel he can think about anyone else in the beach boys world.

AGD didn't ask him what he had for breakfast April 20, 1966. These are basic, well-established facts that he got wrong. If you're coming here as an authority and trying to set the record straight, you need to know your stuff.

::)

This is getting ridiculous. Hey y'know what, Brian wrote GV about my uncle Charlie. He told me so in a PM. Yeah, Uncle Charlie would always talk about getting "excitations" from young women. He referred to my aunt rose's vagina as "a blossom room" and always encouraged her to wear colorful blouses.

Uncle Charlie was "there" you see. So we have to take that into account now. He was "there" and you weren't.

Hey you suppose Brian wrote it about the 3 of them? And where does that leave the Lovester's contribution/inspiration?

He watched. :)

I'm sorry it took me so long to respond, but I just got home from work a little bit ago and had to get caught up with the latest posts.

I want to make several things clear. First of all, this decision was one made by us moderators, and *only* us moderators. We weren't pressured or influenced in any way to take it down. In fact, the initial gut reaction I had *was* to take it down, but I decided to keep it up a bit longer to see where it was going to go. Looking at it yesterday with a clear objective head, though, we felt it was prudent to remove it, as there were several things posted by Mr. Daro that were crossing the line in many areas, least of which were the fact that they were out and out falsehoods, and borderline libelous. With that said, he was *not* banned nor asked to leave. The problem wasn't the poster but rather the content (and the delivery). I don't know why the post at the Hoffman board was removed, and quite frankly doesn't concern me. That is the Hoffman board, and this is the Smiley Smile board.

I'm not quoting this post by Custom Machine in response to him, but rather because it touches on several things that were a major factor in the removal of the thread. I understand why there is some doubt, and I do understand why it is indeed important to have it kept rather than destroyed, for archival purposes. Rest assured that the thread has been saved, not erased, and maybe one time in the future it can be revisited. For now, however, please understand that because of the potential damage certain statements could cause, the thread had to be moved for the time being.

Ya...This is about exactly where I sit. :hat

:hat Sounds sensible enough to me. I dig the new pic, although I do miss Scarecrow.

:lol I wish I could take credit for it, but it came from this board!

Yes, from bossaro. Now all we need is for Brian to upload the other to *his* Facebook and it can all come full circle!

Perhaps one, or all, of the mods can explain to us less enlightened folks how Mr Daro posting something possibly libelous is a threat to this very public, un-moderated board; Un-moderated in this sense meaning of course that every post is not first approved by a nod before it can be viewed.
Personally I don't see how any post by anyone here could ever be construed as having been approved by the owner/managent of the board, unless/until each and every post has to pass mod scrutiny before seeing the light of day.  

This is now two explanations which have been posted regarding this issue. The decision was made, it was discussed before it was made, and at this point as Billy said the thread has simply been moved. It has to stand as that. I totally understand posting disagreements and opinions, but at some point this cannot become an ongoing complaint department thread on this stuff, out of all things.

Many have complained about the lack of positivity and the overall negative tone of the board, I'd ask that in return those people read this thread and see what good rehashing this for a dozen more pages would bring to this board. Understand that is not the reason behind the actions, as Billy clearly explained, but just consider what this has led to. Or not.

Anyone who wants to read the original message which was reposted here and on the Hoffman board can easily find it. You could even engage the debates and challenges on those pages, and post comments and challenges directly to the author. But the decision was made as far as its third overall online appearance on this board, and as Billy said there were other factors involved. And for the third time stated in this post, no one was asked to leave, driven off the board, banned, or removed in any way. I'd ask those who suggested such things happened in this case reconsider what they posted and possibly consider that such knee-jerk reactions having little or no knowledge of the situation can create a lot of bad vibes. The use of "vibes" was deliberate.

I agree with and support what Billy said 100%, in fact at this point it's more like 110%. This whole thing is sad. 'Nuff said from me.

Oh no, I think it obviously has always only been a love song to a dog.

I think you all need to take it literally and see it was written about a vibrator.

It was initially unnerving to say the least seeing his comments about Marilyn. That increased ten fold when Brian posted.

Smart move by the mods pulling the thread.

I normally just read and never join in, but I must say, that thread was AWESOME. I was hoping it'd last longer; I love reading all my favorite posters comments...then to have a guy who was borderline nuts yet somehow partially convincing at times was extra fun!

Van Dyke just posted on twitter. "I confirm Lorren Daro's account of the 60s: an inconvenient truth, in its candor. Never judge a book by its movie!"

Business just picked up.

Still I wonder if he means it or is just playing the other side as a passive aggressive "f*** you" to Brian.


Yeah...for better or worse this "story" ain't going away so soon.

Maybe this is how VDP gets his kicks these days

Wait, so does Van Dyke Parks read this forum too???

Van Dyke's twit today is timed too well to think he doesn't read this board.  This place is far more entertaining than watching TV!

We ought to lock him, Brian and Mike in a thread until they're all best buds

I think more what he is getting at is to not believe everything you hear. The man loves word play.

Sure...Van Dyke Parks and Rec. :lol

Hey VDP...Whatchu think of my SMiLE mixes?? :)

Excellent well-worded posts by Jason, Buddahat, Don, OSD, and Custom Machine to show support of the original thread staying intact. Very good responses by Billy and GF to support their views and why they agreed to abscond with the thread. Hopefully we can somehow rejuvenate the original thread and tie it to this one. Maybe the slanderous comments and statements that violated the rules can be edited out somehow. Maybe Mr. Daro will come back for a proper dialogue; I believe it would be entertaining and educational at the same time.

"I heard it as an aromatic medley of opportunistic tranquility." - What Van Dyke Parks might say.

I second this.

I really don't understand the majority of responses here.  Everyone wants to know what really happened, but when we get a visit from someone who was there you rage against him.  Sorry, it doesn't make sense.  Because he doesn't like Marilyn?  I'm sure she's a lovely woman, but she doesn't need an army of white knights on the Smiley Smile forum to protect her.  And somebody not liking one of their friend's spouses is hardly unusual.  He's entitled to his opinions, popular or not.

So, to sum up, does this mean that Murry was right about Mr. Schwartz?

Gerry, if that was really Lorren, I wanted to see if he remembered the Beach Boys recording sessions, specifically the Rhonda session with Murry. On the session tape, you hear Brian ask Lorren to "get the guys" to come back into the studio after their break.

what if vdp is actually daro

Because he was abusive and very, VERY likely spinning the truth to such a degree that his input was worthless. Just because he was "there" doesn't make his account reliable. Should he come back though, sure, he has as much right to speak his mind as anyone. I never intended to run him off, if my comments were the cause, and I've spoken my peace anyway.

It's not that Marilyn *needs* defending so much as I hate to see a good person so shamelessly put down. Call it whatever you want. Although I detest that particular term, as my understanding of it is where the guy hopes to be "rewarded" for his kindness. And somehow, I doubt Marilyn is interested. I call it being a decent person. Potato po-tah-toe maybe. Either way, that's the mother of Brian's children and he's probably the reason we're all here. Not to start that again, but is it really so crazy to think she deserves to be respected and defended if need be?

In any case, that was just one of many problems with Daro if you read this thread.

Uhh...thanks, Van :lol


If he is Daro, that's certainly the best (worst?) trolling of all time and more than a little pathetic...

VDP was one of the few people Darro wasn't insulting, in fact praising.

Him and Brian's stoner friends I believe.

In real life relations there are no heroes and villains, just humans with flaws.

Brian has always stated very specifically that his mom told him about dogs & vibrations (just as he's always said it was Danny Hutton's calling everyone "Darlin'" that was responsible for another BB classic title). Thus, it's reasonable to assume that if Darro's wife had inspired him, he'd have told Tony "hey Loren's wife keeps saying "Good Vibes", what a great name for a song!" or some such.

As for VDP's tweet... I'm slightly flattered that he seemingly referenced a post of mine but the fact is, his original tweet on the topic was some 8 months old.

He made another tweet on the topic two hours ago.

An excellent and well-expressed post. Aside from his physical appearence and cackling in the DVD (and in this I'm not alone), the problem I have with giving his recent claims due gravitas are that they run counter to what a lot of other folk who were also there at the time have said, and that his sole proof is, in essence, "Brian lied to everyone else, but he told me the truth." The claims about Brian's 1991 book are so very easy to prove to be untrue, and note, he made much play about Brian not writing his own lyrics... then claimed that Brian wrote "IJWMFTT" and "GV" about him, and his wife, in the latter case actually using the words "listen to the lyrics"... which, aside from directly contradicting what he'd already said, were written by Mike in the latter instance. The relation of Brian's first trip has changed somewhat with each retelling. Based on these grounds, and his unfortunate mode of expression coupled with a disrespect for some key players, it's very hard to take him seriously, the more so when, as Ray noted, he apparently skedaddled as soon as he saw Brian was here. Why not stick around as ask Brian to confirm his claims ?

But to me, the most bizarre aspect of the whole farrago is that two years after the article was posted to seeming general indifference, he turns up here and elsewhere out of nowhere, all guns blazing, saying he's putting the record straight on criticisms that, unless I've missed something, no-one can find, certainly not on his own blog. To crib my ol' drinking buddy Will, methinks he doth protest too much. Before this, Darro was known, perhaps unfairly, for one thing and one thing only in the BB fan world: he was the guy who gave Brian LSD, an experience Brian later said shattered him, blew his mind and not in a good way. Now, suddenly, he's Brian's #1 buddy and the only person to protect him from all the others seeking to hitch a ride on his coattails. On the available evidence, I'd have to say he didn't do much of a job.

A final observation: being there at the time doesn't guarantee accurate recall. I've been that Person X wasn't at a particular session by Person Y (who also was present), yet the former is both listed on the AFM sheet and clearly audible on the session tapes.

Yes, I know - hence my reference to the original tweet.

 :woot Absolutely wonderful response, AGD. You summed it up perfectly. :woot

 :thumbsup We can end this thread here, gentlemen. There's really nothing more to be said after that. :thumbsup

Doesn't necessarily mean anything, and sure isn't related to Daro ...

But ...

Doesn't the David Marks "Lost Beach Boys" book have David claiming some of the good vibrations stuff being because of his mother?

Been a while since I read the book, but for the life of me, I have some memory of having read that.

Anyway. Not refuting dogs, Brian's mom, groovy chicks or anything. I wasn't there, and don't PARTICULARLY care about the origin (I love the song on its own merits).

Did Brian say he named after Hutton or did Hutton say it was named after Hutton?

Either way, I'm not arguing with you old friend or the dog story. There is plenty to criticize, doubt, dispute, and argue with but the claim that Brian may have told someone that their wife was also an inspiration of GV has not been discredited yet. Both could be true.

Again, I'm astonished to hear you reiterate your belief that his physical appearance on the BD doc somehow undermines the authenticity of his claims. Using your own logic, where you call into question the veracity of a subject's entire recollection of events because you can prove they got one detail wrong (I see you do this time and time again), it should be perfectly acceptable for me to rubbish your opinions of Lorren Daro based on your blatant prejudice towards his physical appearance. Please, I would love to hear how, as an historian apparently dedicated to ideals of truth and factual accuracy, you can defend the act of judging someone's words based on their physical appearance? By your own rationale it should be OK for me to come on here and rubbish all Mike Love's recollections of the BB glory days because I think he looks a bit sleazy on stage these days, or because he was shitty about Brian on that 'Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous' show in the 80s. Trust me, ML comes across far worse on far more archival interview footage than Daro does in that doc.

However, I don't share your 'it's all true or none of it is' philosophy and so therefore wanted to respond to some of the more interesting points you make:


As I said earlier, this is a good point. Daro does contradict himself here. However, being that Daro is not a BB fanboy like the rest of us, it's entirely feasible that he was unaware that Brian, during his career, occasionally contributed to the lyrics, or wrote them entirely. I imagine it would be easy to spend a lot of time with Brian during the Pet Sounds/Smile period and leave thinking that Brian never wrote his own lyrics.


As I said earlier, we know Brian took concepts in to writing sessions with Asher, so could easily have asked Asher to write a song about being out of step with the times (a concept inspired by discussions with Daro), then told Daro that the song was written about him. If Daro goes on to claim Brian wrote the song about Daro, he could mean 'write' in the loosest of terms i.e. that Brian took the concept to Asher who wrote the lyrics. Daro would therefore not be contradicting himself there. Brian did part-write the lyrical concept inasmuch as he supplied the initial concept. And, no, I'm not claiming that Daro's account of IJWMFTT is true - just creating an example of how, knowing BW's working process with Asher, Daro could simultaneously claim that Brian never wrote his own songs, yet wrote IJWMFTT for Daro. He's not lying - just clumsy with his phrasing and historical knowledge of BW's writing practice.


As for GV, although it pains me slightly AGD, I need to bow to your superior knowledge of the facts here: How come Asher claims to have written the Good Vibrations bit as per Cam's post above? Do we know for certain the Mike wrote that bit?  Either way, Cam's quote does lend some credence to Daro's claim that GV was about Lynda inasmuch as we have a quote where one of the song's writers (prior to and seemingly unaware of Daro's claim it should be noted) describes it being a phrase everyone was using and that Brian brought it to his attention. Yes, 'everyone' is not the same as 'Lynda' but maybe Brian was thinking of Lynda when he told him 'everyone is using the phrase'. Or maybe Asher is just generalising, or misremembering the fine details of that writing session. Again here, Brian, having taken the intial concept of the Good Vibes phrase in to Asher, could then have told Daro he wrote the song about Lynda. Although it's far from a smoking gun, Cam's quote does strengthen Daro's claim imo.

As for the Audree, dog story - Need we choose one or the other? Why can't both the Audree and Lynda stories be true? Sometimes various sources of inspiration can coalesce to form the basis of a song, surely?


I don't understand the reasoning behind the above point. Do any of us really believe that BW would answer anything other than safe, brand-friendly, questions on this board? Why should Daro exiting as BW arrives undermine the honesty of his claims? Daro, although saying some insensitive things about Brian, appears to remember him as a friend. I expect he was embarrassed to see BW show up at the exact same time. Really, what were the odds? If he'd stuck around and said more insensitive things you'd be criticising him for rubbing it in Brian's face. Leaving at that point (if BW's presence was a contributing factor) was a sensible thing to do.  I have been critical of Mike Love on the board and I suspect if he were to show up and start posting, I'd promptly log off in embarrassment. It doesn't mean I don't believe what I was posting, just that I'd rather not make my points direct to Mike Love's face.


Of course witnessing historical events first hand isn't a guarantee for perfect recall of facts. Most of us arguing in support of Daro's presence on the board are suggesting that Daro's being there adds value to the information he's supplying compared to Jo Schmo hypothesising on what ifs 40 years down the line, behind a computer screen in another continent. Daro's is another perspective from a Smile-era insider that, just as we do with the words of Vosse, Anderle, Siegel etc. we can examine and analyse rationally, or at least that was the hope before egos, fear and small-mindness threw a spanner in the works.


Finally, I find it surprising that you haven't at least expressed a passing interest in VDP's latest quote. Does this not also strengthen Daro's recollectons? Or are you also struggling with the 'inconvenience' that VDP alludes to? I would be interested to hear your take on the comment, and on VDP's integrity. From other corners of the board I can already see it being called into question based on VDP's lack of positivity towards Brian of late.

I thought that vibes story had been published since I heard it:
http://www.npr.org/2000/06/19/1075634/good-vibrations

I remember in the wake of the Beautiful Dreamer release that there was quite a lot of negativity directed towards Lorren Daro - Primarily for him having supplied drugs to Brian in the 60s, but also because, to some, he appeared flippant about it on camera. There were also, iirc, questions raised about his name change. I can't remember if people were scathing about it but I wouldn't be surprised.

Unfortunately the search function is currently not my friend as I can't find the exact posts I remember although there are some later ones alluding to the above stuff.

My point is, he quite rightly felt the need to 'set the record straight' as I suspect would you or I if we encountered that sort of vitriol directed towards us online. I don't think he's being over-sensitive at all. I suspect his original essay was a direct reaction to content he read on this board.


I find the above challenge ironic, given you're a relative newcomer and weren't a member when Lorren Daro first became a contentious figure here. I've participated in this board for 9 years and wouldn't dream of accusing anyone here of not knowing their stuff - most of them are far more clued up than me on BB 101 - Even you, I suspect.

Nothing personal, Mujan. We obviously have our differences and I'm not singling you out for any other reason than you're one of the more outspoken on all this and I find your comments more provocative.

Thanks - I don't think I was aware of this. Interesting reading.

I don't know if Daro and Van Dyke remained friends. The Daro thread would have been a good place to ask. However, having seen VDP's twitter, and considering the latter's famous quote about spanking Brian out of his behavior/state of mind, I wonder if those two share the thesis about Brian faking insanity in order to cope with the demands of his life and environment.

Wasn't VDP Lorren's friend first?

No secret I'm not a fan of VDP (musically...don't know him as a person although I have a very strong feeling we wouldn't get on at all) but maybe the tweet is being analyzed wrong by us.

I believe so, I'm pretty sure Asher and Daro knew each other prior to PS. Doesn't LD also say that in the essay?

Could be re. VDP. It also seems like lately VDP's suggesting things weren't as rosey between he and Brian as we fans had wanted to think. Just projecting from Anderle and Vosse's comments about relations between the two in the time period. Maybe one or all of them will comment on the board.

Darro stated that Brian never wrote his own lyrics, and backed that up by claiming Brian had told him that back in the early days it was Mike, Usher & Christian, uncredited. Thus, it's not him misunderstanding. He's very firm on this point: Brian never wrote lyrics, because Brian told him so... and then he cites the lyrics of "GV" as "proof" that it's about his wife. That's the kind of logic that would insult the intellect of a fern. Pretty much all his claims come back to the same refrain: "Brian told me so...".


No, it doesn't strengthen Darro's recollections in any way or form, because it's not about them. VDP says he can "confirm Lorren Daro's account of the 60s", not that he can confirm the specifics of what Darro has said about Brian. For someone who chooses his words as carefully as he does, that's a significant difference. I didn't comment on it because I figured everyone else would similarly pick up on what Van Dyke said... or didn't.

Yup, and anybody who knows anything about the BB history knows that when it comes to songwriting credits, one must (in the words of Walter White) 'tread lightly'.

Eh, I'll give him a pass on the Brian/lyrics question.

Remember, at that time Brian was receiving sole writing credits on many songs that actually had lyrics written or co-written by Mike. Brian might have mentioned that to Darro, information that Darro garbled either then or in memory (it's been 50 years) as Brian never wrote the lyrics.

Yes but Daro would've been aware of Brian's writing practise I'm sure i.e. taking concepts in to his writing partners as springboards. So Daro could believe that Brian never wrote lyrics specifically, yet had a hand in steering the subject matter i.e. 'wrote' songs in a loose sense.

I don't share your belief that the above contradiction totally undermines the claims. I think your thinking is inflexible to say the least regarding that point and you're getting hung up on a small detail and stubbornly ignoring the bigger, more interesting, question - i.e. could Daro and his wife have feasibly inspired those songs? In the case of GV and Asher's similar comments about Brian originally intending it to be 'Good Vibes' because 'everybody's saying it' I'd say it's not unreasonable at all to consider that he may be telling the truth.

The contradiction you highlight just strikes me as a minor linguistic error at most - the type that occurs when people describe the abstract, alchemical process of 'writing a song'.

Out of curiosity - What is the proof that Mike Love wrote the Good Vibrations hook? I know the story about him coming up with it in a car. It's obviously in conflict with Asher's claims. Have these two stories been reconciled somehow i.e. has one been exposed as false?

I see a great deal of "after-spin" going on here, which is understandable. But Andrew continues to attempt to discredit Daro with only a trace amount of evidence--a few comments that he is exploding out of context and examining with a logic that is half induction and half obsessive desperation. Trying to discredit Daro solely on the lyrics question is the type of approach that gets you a D- in debating class. There are broader issues here that are being side-stepped. The fact is that despite what we think we know about the 1966-67 time period, there is still much that we don't. Anderle's discussions with Paul Williams created a set of inchoate scenarios; Tom Nolan tried to go further into the supposed flashpoints for the project; a great deal of research has been done to look at the session logs--and the result of all that is still mysterious and "beautiful even its obscurity."

So here we have someone who was documented as a particularly infamous person in the 1965-67 scene who shows up, possibly suffering from his own demons, who begins very badly (a not-uncommon occurrence, if one examines prior examples here...) and the response is to demonize, marginalize, immediately discredit and dismiss him out of hand. That all might well be the right result but it is impossible to make that claim given what has happened to date. No amount of "geometric logic" is sufficient to draw these conclusions. People need to reexamine their own motives for the behavior being exhibited here.

I am 100% in favor of what the mods did with one major exception--I believe that they should have drawn a straw, and the one who got the short one should have posted here announcing that after careful review from the umpiring crew in New York (and, hey, Brian would love a baseball reference...) that the thread was being pulled. To do so in the "dead of night" was ill-considered IMO. And I hasten to say that this is one of the very few times that the mods have made such a mistake--I have nothing but respect for the work they do here (in addition to being some of the most attuned-to-the-music folks we have here). Making the decision is hard, and I accept the decision even though I personally disagree--it's their call, and I respect that. But we should have been told what that decision was and what was happening at the time, instead of operating as if it could simply disappear without a trace.

Brian and VDP is a long, LONG separate thread that should happen here--or, perhaps, happen again in light of recent developments, even if it's happened before (and I apologize...time constraints really prevent me from checking back through the archives). It is one of the keys to that time frame--and given that Daro (Schwartz) knew VDP before Brian (as Billy was just referencing with his question), it only points out the lost opportunity to examine all that. VDP has been strategically hazy and surreal about SMiLE for years, perhaps because he's still working out the long-term effects of that complicated relationship.

Finally--a lot of the literature touches upon the unique family elements that made life so complicated for Brian. They reference the pressure he was under. It seems that there are acceptable ways to suggest the he was "in over his head" during this great creative surge and there are unacceptable ways--and it occurs that Loren Daro's comments have been examined in the light of the semi-consensual narrative that's built up over time and are being rejected because they potentially disrupt that narrative.

Sorry, I'm not with you. Yes VDP is not being specific by using the phrase "Lorren Daro's account of the 60s" - but it is twitter remember so he doesn't have much room to focus. However, in light of the timing, it's fair to assume VDP is referring to Daro's essay. What else could he be referring to? I wasn't suggesting that VDP was specifically endorsing Daro's claims about GV and IJWMFTT. I was arguing however that VDP's support of Daro and his essay strengthens Daro's claims in the essay and his credibility as a source IF, like me, you trust the credibility of VDP as a source.

If you are seriously arguing that VDP is NOT referring to the essay in question but some other hypothetical account of the 60s that Daro made somewhere off the record, then I really see no point in continuing this discussion with you as that is just not rational imo. Maybe I misunderstood you?

As stated before, several times, it's not just the lyrics contradiction, but also the nonsense about the 1991 book, the reliance on "Brian told me this, but lied to everyone else" and the sudden appearance from nowhere two years after the article was posted, vowing to set the record straight in the face of criticisms that, to date, no-one can actually find. Oh, and the immoderate language and character assassination. In 1966, Marilyn was eighteen years old ! At an age when most girls were still in highschool or junior college, she was running a household and trying to care for an increasingly fragile, easily led husband. When Brian took his first trip, she was just seventeen. And Darro called her a cow. Like I said,  in the now quarantined thread, pure class. Ignoring the inaccuracies and questionable claims, Darro's article was extremely self serving, to the point of obnoxiousness. As I stated before, if he was the only one to try and protect Brian, he did a damn poor job.

Andrew - once this poster, "started" on the lyrics, which were adjudicated, nothing that was said, appeared credible to me.  A full inquiry was made.  

My first thought was "who was driving, while 'trip' impaired?" Who was being responsible? It is hardly anything to have bragging rights over.  I hope I correctly remember (because I can't re-read them) the tale, as inconsistent throughout, and agree. And, find it offensive that with a status as "guest" in Marilyn's home, why he would insult her.  What happens in Vegas...

Maybe there is an agenda (of revisionism) at hand...I'm at a loss to figure what his "goal" might be.

And, I do understand why the thread was pulled and archived.  But since the awful events of the last few weeks, folks are now very sensitive about anything (however inappropriate, insensitive, false or even potentially libelous) being removed, as folks have died for such.  But, maybe the flip side is that it is a privately run and funded forum...

And we are "guests," and should behave accordingly.  ;)

I thought I made it clear that I pulled it when I did because I had just got home from work? It wasn't I'll considered...it was the only time it was feasible. Sorry if I sound harsh...I feel like sh*t and the only reason I'm even online right now is because I called in sick. But yeah, by the time I get home, I literally have maybe two hours tops to eat, put my daughter to bed, shower, get my clothes ready for work the next day, possibly take a sh*t, and read the board. I wish I did post something when it was deleted, but everything happened at a rush; thankfully, my schedule changes to 3-midnight starting Sunday, so I'll have a little more time, but between work and moving, things have been crazy lately.

Of course Van Dyke is referring to the article, but parts of it are about the 1960s music business culture, and in my mind, this is what VDP is referring to. You asked "Does this not also strengthen Daro's recollectons?" and my response was that, regarding what he had to say about Brian, no, it didn't.

Twitter affords 140 characters (the main reason I hardly ever use it - that's about hallway through the first sentence for me), more than enough for VDP to have said something like "I confirm that what Loren said about Brian is accurate": that's just over 50 characters. Van Dyke's wording was very specific - "I confirm Lorren Daro's account of the 60s". Do you see any mention of Brian Wilson in there ? I don't.

But... we're going round in circles here: you're sure you're right, I'm sure I am. I've had my say, in considerable and doubtless tedious detail. Bottom line - the inaccuracies, the lack of supporting proof, the internal contradictions and the intemperate mode of expression combine to make me have the gravest reservations as to Darro's credibility and trustworthiness, especially at this late remove.

I think some people are giving far too much creedence to the opinions of a guy whose one claim to fame in life is turning Brian Wilson onto acid for the first time.

Not only that, but it seems he only comes out of the woodwork anytime Brian's involved in something major. 2004-2005, 2012, now...notice a pattern? I'm trying like hell to not be a hypocrite and really go off, but it's starting to get extremely difficult.

Thank you. To be fair, though, his other more worthwhile contribution was hooking Brian up with Asher.

Backing up what Billy posted, again 110%. At this point, we have posted several explanations and clarifications on what is an ongoing issue. Both Billy's posts and my own specifically mentioned the time/schedule factor...where we are simply not able to be on the board 24/7 due to work, family, scheduling, and basically real life everyday issues. Things happen, they're dealt with, we try to explain the big stuff when we are able and after we've discussed it.

At this point, can I post an appeal to let this rest and also in a much lesser way, to trust that everything that happened did in fact happen for a reason? And to again consider letting this one go and not have this continue to be a challenge-the-mods discussion? Seriously, there are terrific things going on in this forum, uplifting and positive things, and it saddens me to see this be the distraction which takes focus away from the best qualities of this board and the people who regularly post here.

Please, that's all I'm asking.

I'm done, said all I have to.

Several times...  ;D

It's not exactly hard to find this criticism: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,13147.0.html

The mods are amazing. And more patient and tolerant with squabbling than Job.

I respect the call you made.  The question is why would anyone post such stuff?  

And it is an "observation" and not a "criticism."

One for the mods  :beer

And that would be one of OSD's unopened Bud Lights! (I couldn't resist!)  :lol

(Low alcohol percentage ! )

So much for stopping it. Much appreciated.

That May 2012 thread started the day it originally appeared on a blog then was reposted here, on Hoffman, and other boards, and it ended 4 days later. Done, over, case closed. May 31 2012, last post. What happened that next Tuesday, back in June 2012? Check for yourself.

And over two years later, this starts up again...replying to 2+ year old criticisms after a 2 year lag? The only coincidences I believe in are when someone happens to pick the winning numbers in the lottery and wins millions. And stuff like that.

Thank you for the kind words, that is very much appreciated!  :)

Couldn't the criticism of the mods stops but the discussion of the claims continue?

The topics like Darlin and GV exist in other threads, Cam, as recent as last month in the case of the Darlin naming story. They're on the board already.

Why the conspiracy theories?  Funny thing happens if you google Lorren Daro: both the 11 page thread here and the one on the SH site are what you get on the first page.  Isn't the easiest, most logical solution that the guy happened to google himself and that's what he found and chose to address it?  

Okay...then why would he only google himself and choose to respond *only* when Brian's profile is raised?

What about the Brian/VDP/Darro relationship in the 60's? Or should we let things settle down first?

Sorry Billy, I really think you guys are reaching there.  Brian has been a celebrity since before either of us were born.  I don't see why someone would need a tie-in with a new album to get attention for having associated with him if that's what you're suggesting.   :shrug

(http://i.imgur.com/CZ0sgJT.jpg)

I absolutely 100% respect the mods' decision to take the thread down although I would have preferred they had kept it up - due to timeshift I went to bed before it was taken off, so I don't know what was written just before it was taken down which may have been even more offensive than its beginning. It's a tough job they do.

As to Darro's credibility: interesting and unusually respectful discussion :wink - my take on this is that though you can't conclude from some wrong claims that ALL other claims are wrong too (I guess even the Badham book though seemingly full of flaws contains more correct info than it contains wrong info), BUT a guy who scatters that many insults over a first posting is not someone I would trust in anything.

Just crossed my mind: Do the board mods wear mod gear?

The return of the Mod Squad. :afro :lol ;)

The contract rider specifies we each get matching Vespa scooters.  ;D

Said I wasn't going to do this, but f*** it...


Because that's all he's known for.  To the general public, he's done little to nothing worthwhile on his own,and has a serious axe to grind because of it. There's jealousy and bitterness to spare. But don't take my word for it. Why not ask anybody who has interviewed or interacted with him for the past, oh, I dunno, 20 or so years? Do you think they are all lying? Hell, even ignoring that,  from his posts here alone it should've  been obvious that anybody that disagreed with him was immediately 'pulling opinions out of [their] ass ' and yet had the nerve to accuse Rocky of the same? Pot, kettle, black. Everybody's wrong except for him. I can understand the issue with Gaines for obvious reasons, but do you honestly believe that every single person who has ever discussed him on (and off...) the record is making up sh*t about him? Please understand I'm not flaming you and you are indeed entitled to your opinion, but also please understand that he has a reputation for a reason, not because he's the victim and everybody else other than VDP is lying.

Truth be told, I was hoping for more when I saw he registered here.  

:lol

No worries bro. :)

As to the rest, I can only speak on what I personally saw.  He certainly had some contentious opinions, but he wasn't exactly welcomed here with open arms either.

It's much the same as what happened in May 2012 on each of the boards where that first blog post was reposted and reacted to. The internet is great that way, a lot can be found by a simple search. It's not worth reposting and all of that, but seriously, go back and check the reactions from 2012. It's hard to justify posting a scorched-earth, flamethrower statement with direct personal attacks and name calling included, and expect no one to react just as strong in return. And this has now happened each time when such a message appeared out of the blue, on several forums.

Let me speak to something else, repeating myself I know, but it was upsetting and still doesn't feel right. Some of the reactions posted which suggested things that simply did not happen here on the board, and suggesting anything of the sort that anyone was chased off, or otherwise... going as far as using the term "fanboys" as a derogatory swipe against people here for no reason, is troubling. I'll restate again - It played out exactly to the letter as several others have posted both here and in the other thread. I can back that up directly as I was online to see exactly what happened and when, down to who was logged in and reading the board and when they were not. I hope no more clarifications or explanations are necessary at this point, because what was reported was what happened, it's simple as that. At least be fair and consider that before debating and criticizing based on a reading of events that has no basis in what actually went down in real time.

Also, also this.

Not to shut buddhahat or anyone else down, but at the end of the day this really is what it all boils down to. I'm sick of seeing these insinuations of a conspiracy to hush up anything that clashes with the established narrative too. I think we're all adults here and open to being proven wrong and learning info that conflicts with what we know. But for the many reasons AGD and Billy has listed, it's clear that Daro is not a credible source and has a clearly self serving agenda. He's a glorified acid/weed hookup looking to make a name for himself. I'd be interested in hearing what he had to say regardless if he weren't so shamelessly abusive and narcissistic in his posts. At the end of the day I don't trust him and doubt he had much worthwhile to say.

Like AGD said, we're going in circles and nobody will convince the other. But there's very valid reasons to discredit Daro's bold claims that don't involve some crazy conspiracy. And with this final post, I'm respecting Guifarfool's wishes and letting this thread die. Anyone who trusts Daro can email him for information, but his thread had no purpose except to witness how pathetic and bitter a man could sink. That's my final word on the subject.

Sure, but those weren't the only claims.

Also, the "vibes" thing with Asher seemed to be new info to some and was on topic of the claims specifically.

I don't agree that this thread should be shut down at all, much that I respect the mods and the difficult job they have here sometimes. For what reason should this thread be terminated? I don't see any name calling, or swearing, or bullying. Maybe I'm deluded but I thought we were all being pretty respectful towards one another.

Only a few months ago people were bemoaning the lack of quality discourse here, the glut of list and poll threads (some of which I was responsible for I'm afraid). Then we have some serious, challenging discussion crop up about the Smile era and everybody wants it shut down. Confused, to say the least.

He already has a name (well, a few. still...).  He worked for major talent agencies and represented, or had dealings with, well known, signed acts. Additionally, he was friends with the a number of people involved in the Hollywood music scene of that time. He's wasn't a Sunset Blvd. bumpkin.

Why doesn't someone go on Twitter and politely ask VDP to what specifically is he referring to in his tweet?

I don't see any justification for the narrow minded stereotype being pushed here of Daro as some sort of degenerate drug pusher. Whether you do or don't believe daro's claims that he resisted Brian's requests for drugs for quite some time, what on earth is wrong with Daro supplying cannabis and LSD to Brian in the first place? Really? Should we blame Bob Dylan for turning The Beatles on? Or is that different because the beatles didn't go on to endure severe mental health problems - something that Lorren Daro couldn't possibly have anticipated at the time? Why aren't we piling in to Danny Hutton for supplying Brian with drugs, or whoever else gave him speed and coke (probably far more detrimental to his psychological well being)? The BB story is littered with far worse examples of irresponsibility around drugs. As has been argued before, BW was not a child. He was a fully grown adult. People here seem to blame Daro for somehow not fulfilling his responsibilities as a glorified child minder. These were young, successful men experimenting with drugs IN THE 60s for crying out loud. I had friends hook me up with drugs as a teenager (younger than Brian was at the time) and it didn't play out well for me on several occasions. Who do I hold responsible for those bad trips, bad comedowns etc? Me and me alone.

We know VDP doesn't like being pinned down on his words and I reckon that stretches to twitter too. A private email might be a better approach if anybody knows his address?

In honesty though, I don't see any ambiguity in his phrasing. He is making a very public show of support for Daro's essay. Those who can't entertain Daro's side of events conveniently choose to ignore the tweet, or reconstrue it to their own ends. Whether he spells it out or not I think people have chosen their sides on this one.

He made nasty personal attacks on people he'd actually known.  I don't get why people took it so personally and act like he's attacked their grandmother.  Is it not better to act with a little detachment, remember that he's a part of the history and we're (mostly) just internet dweebs, and learn what you can from such a person, even if he appears dislikable?  Argue with his points, sure, and discount what you don't believe, but I don't see the point of laying into him with such ferocity on a personal level that he then leaves.  He probably would've chilled out a bit.

I wonder sometimes just what and how much VDP is holding back.

Just to throw this out there...

Speaking only for myself...

My issue with Mr. Daro has nothing to do with drugs, as #1- Brian was a grown man and could make his own decisions (and would've gotten it from anyone else) and 2) I make Tommy Chong look like Pat Boone, so that'd be hypocritical. My own feelings were stated earlier,so no sense repeating myself, but I wanted to be very clear.

Bottom line (for me) : he was abusive to a fellow board member -- that is, Brian Wilson, and thus, the mods made a correct decision in deleting the thread. If Brian hadn't joined, should the thread have been deleted? That's another question, one which is thankfully moot.

Is it time to open the bar?

I have never, at least in this discussion, stated that I have any problem with him supplying drugs to Brian. As stated before, several times, my problems are with his changing his story every time its told, contradicting himself when it suits, talking nonsense about the 1991 book (which even you cannot deny), coming across as an obnoxious, self-serving and unpleasantly bitter individual and protesting too much. In court on the witness stand, any half-way competent lawyer would make mincemeat of him.

I note that in the original 2012 thread on this article, you were also supportive of Darro from the beginning. Whilst I applaud your consistency, I also have to consider there might be some kind of a vested interest.

Agreed 110%, I posted what I posted eariler because when someone pisses over so many people from such a great height, they need bringing back down to earth somewhat.

A capital notion, young Cameron. Why are you waiting ?

You know, reading the thread from 2012 (which I've just done: thanks Avan Todd) is very illuminating. Andrew dismisses Daro as a fraud in #4 and is absent from that point on. At which point, the next five pages of the thread actually attempt to suss out Loren Daro in the context of the times that he (apparently) just wasn't made for.

Everyone who has been in this thread should go back and read it in its entirety. Because you will see that a great and interesting thread turned sour and filled with snarky one-liners. Prior to that, however, a great deal of informative and open-minded speculation about the 1965-67 period ensues, including this superb post from one of our esteemed (and I do mean that unironically...ESTEEMED) moderators, guitarfool2002. Read it, please, and understand why several of us here are so tenaciously arguing for open-mindedness even in the face of bad behavior (Daro's!!!) and instant skepticism/hostility.

A final note before the quote: should you peruse it (and it does get depressingly familiar to many threads here...), you'll see that ontor was able to initiate an email exchange with Daro that was partially uploaded into the thread. Also worth reading, even in its fragmentary state.


NOTE: modified after posting to correct misspelling of Avan Todd's name...

AGD I wasn't directing the above comments at you.

As for a vested interest - no, not at all. I don't know the man and had no contact with him prior to posting on his web page yesterday. Actually, I have a feeling I was defending Daro before the 2012 thread, probably back when beautiful dreamer came out, but I can't find the relevant threads. Back then his (admittedly awkward) comments about Marilyn hadn't been made yet and so the negative reaction I witnessed on this board was, as far as I could tell, based solely on his appearance in the documentary. I interpreted this as prejudice pure and simple and it touched a nerve somewhere. I also feel he was a victim of the editing. I don't see anything in his comments in beautiful dreamer, or his laughing, that warranted the type of vitriol he received prior to his 2012 essay.

As for the Marilyn comments, I can understand why some here were shocked. She comes across in interviews that I've watched as a nice person, one who still cares for Brian - a good egg. But I've never met the woman or spent significant amounts of time with her, during a probably crazy but highly stressful period. Who's opinion is more reliable here - mine or Daro's? I'd argue Daro's by a mile and even if it's refuted by many other acquaintances of Marilyn's, at the end of the day, Mr Daro is entitled to his opinion.

did anyone else notice daro was logged in on the board and reading this post a few minutes ago? wonder why he did not post a comment or two.....

You will, however, agree that he is hardly an impartial witness. He sees Marilyn as a prime mover in blackening his name. On the other hand, she saw him as the man who changed her husband forever.

Lorren was presenting his experiences and understandings. Sure he could have expressed himself differently and he seemed to be reconsidering that maybe when everything went south. Anyways I hope things can settle down and we get to explore his understandings and opinions further. It should be part of the record.

What little contact I had with Loren a longish while back he was very warm and friendly and intelligent and I believe he had a big influence on Brian's spirituality I guess you could say. Maybe things got off on a wrong foot but I suggest we don't form our opinion of him from what little we know about him now. There is a lot more to him than this I believe.

Can we come to a consensus on how to spell his first name AND his last name, though?

Lorren Daro (formerly Loren Schwartz)

PLEASE BE KIND AND IGNORE THIS POST. IT WAS DONE IN ERROR WHEN I CLICKED AND COPIED THE WRONG 'WORD' DOCUMENT. IN CASE YOU'RE INTERESTED, THE 5mg DOSE IS FOR PROSTATE PROBLEMS, NOT SEXUAL ONES.


To Eliseo and all that may have helped...

Hooray! Well-Care has approved your request to lower the Tier from Four to Two.

Instead of $225 for 90 tabs of Cialis 5mg, I will now pay $97...

This will have to be approved again in one year, and a prior approval of the prescription will have to submitted again in July, but we'll deal with that later.

Many, many thanks...

Lorren Daro

I'm happy for you, buddy.

The f***? Your (daro) brain on drugs????

Maybe it IS Van Dyke, and now that the secret's out he's just going full-troll?

Edit: Apparently Not

Cialis is a drug, so I guess yeah.

???

I voluntarily withdrew from this site, and not because Brian visited it, of which I was unaware. He appeared after I left. The invective was beyond my ability to respond. Grateful thanks to Don Malcom and Buddhahat, among others, for their reasoned and rational responses.

What else can a historian do than repeat what the principals told him? What else can he do than relate what he observed at the time? I am not here mainly to protect Brian, although I hope I can. I am here to serve the truth as I remember it.

Yes, I was wrong about Brian not writing ‘all’ the lyrics, and I posted that apology long ago. But, many of you don’t read or remember what has been posted, but insist on your own immediate, unfounded and uninformed opinions. Yes, Brian wrote the lyrics to several early songs, but had help that was not attributed due to Murry’s objections. Those early songs were mostly simplistic and elementary. The deeper, more meaningful lyrics that appeared later were credited collaborations.

What is all this ‘old man’ sh*t? I do not drink or use drugs. I am not ill. I smoked my last joint in 1981. I wrote a book on health supplements and lead a clean life. My mind is clear, as is my memory most of the time. Count the celebrities you see on TV that are my age, are they mentally disabled? Is Betty White? Is Barbara Walters? Is John McLaughlin? Is Dan Rather? Is Bill Moyers? Is Sean Connery? Is Clint Eastwood? Etc. Etc…

As to my ‘physical appearance’ on ‘Beautiful Dreamer’, I was 65 at the time. I didn’t look that bad. If  you’re objecting to my facial expressions, that’s who I am. I wonder how many of you would look good on TV. As Popeye said, “I yam what I yam, and that’s what I yam!”

Yes, Marilyn is a lovely, sweet person. But none of you were there when she refused to support Brian, when she yelled hysterically at him for every new thing he pursued that she, Mike, Murry and the Capitol executives objected to. SHE WAS NOT A LOYAL WIFE TO BRIAN! That is what I object to. And how could you know what went on in those days just by meeting her today? There is no insult to her that would be inappropriate. And, I don’t care if she’s the mother of Brian’s children – divorce courts are full of them.

Yes, I spelled Audree wrong. I apologize. Yes, I spelled Sachen wrong, I apologize. Just because few, or none of you, know this history doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Have I used anger and invective to present my case, yes, I intended to do that. Am I angry about the abuse I’ve endured. Yes. Am I angry about the abuse Brian has endured? Double yes. Why so many of you dismiss what I have posted because of the tone of my writing is beyond my understanding. This is my personality, which has grown out the injustice I have seen and experienced in this world. Since my youth, morality has taken a dive in America. I object to that. I am a man of moral seriousness, which is the heritage of my race. Take it or leave it.

Tony Asher was once my best friend. We had a falling out along the way, plus he tried hard to get my wife to leave me. My information about the origins of ‘Good Vibrations’ came directly from Brian. I’m not surprised that Tony refused to confirm my assertions. As for Brian’s appearance on the site, once again, I never read it. I left before he appeared. I would, however, have no problem having a dialogue with him anywhere, any time. As far as I know, we are still friends. We met in San Francisco a few years ago and spent a day together talking over old times. We spoke of much that I have written about and he had no objections or concerns to offer.

I have no objections to my posts being pulled from Steve Hoffman. I never posted them there to begin with. They just appeared there following my posts to this site. I don’t know why.

From ‘The Legendary OSD’:

“When all is said and done, and it's not yet, I'm going with the one who was there at the time. There is no more authentic take on any subject than being present with the players in the same setting at the time it went down. Nothing...nothing can substitute that experience. You may not like the man, or his point of view but don't judge him on a few posts, give credit where credit is due. He was infinitely closer to the scene than the majority here. In other words, let's not shoot the messenger because someone here thinks they know better. Were you there in the mid sixties? Did you experience being with Brian and his family like this guy did, huh? Quite honestly, I'd like to see as much light as he cares to shed about all things Beach Boys because there is much more to learn regardless of who you are or what you think you know.”

Thank you, Legendary, for this. Would that many of your members have the same kindness of heart…

Many of the criticisms I have been trying to answer appeared on the WordPress site when I first posted the essay. My intention was to carry over these issues to this site in order to reach a wider BW audience. I know most of you were not aware of this contentious debate. I’m sorry for the confusion over the timing.

For the record, when I first posted my essay on WordPress, Van Dyke Parks and David Leaf both wrote me praising the piece. For the record: I still love Van Dyke, and I know he loves me.

Van Dyke just posted this on Twitter. "I confirm Lorren Daro's account of the 60s: an inconvenient truth, in its candor. Never judge a book by its movie!"

Van Dyke was there for much of the history I related. His ‘Why wasn’t I told…’ line was a sarcasm. He lived much of it with me. He was there as I was. He felt the same about Marilyn and the entire crew of assholes I wrote about. Again, these were a few terrible people, not everyone around Brian. The villains were, specifically: Mike, Murry, Marilyn, Sachen and the Capitol executives. They are all welcome to charge me with libel. I would be happy to appear in court to defend my positions, or to dialogue with them in any way they choose.

It’s important that you all know that life with Brian in those days was rife with lies. People lying to Brian: Brian lying to protect his real feelings intentions, desires and feelings. I was not the only one he didn’t lie to. He was straight with Anderle, with Van Dyke, with Vosse most of the time, with Carl, and several others.  Most everyone around him had their own agendas. I had none except to be his friend and advisor when he obviously needed one. I was there to confront and take issue with the people around him who wanted to use him, to exploit him, to make money from him. I am trying to expose these bastards for what they were, and probably still are. Murry, the helping father – NOT! Marilyn, the loving and supportive wife – NOT! Capitol, the encouraging executives – NOT! Mike, the protective pal – NOT! Sachen, the helpful assistant – NOT! Faced with this rogue’s gallery, who wouldn’t lie all the time.

Once again, since I was the villain of the piece, Brian could not, once our journey was over, sound supportive of me in any way. Just mentioning my name would find him in a sh*t-storm. He quickly learned cover stories for the songs, the LSD, the ideas I presented. These cover stories have been cast in stone for so long that even Brian must now believe some of them. None of that is my concern. My purpose is to expose these true villains for what they are: the ones who made Brian’s life miserable and helped to drive him to the mental problems that still plague him. One more time, I love and have always loved Brian. I take this sh*t from most of you to help him, to exonerate both he and myself. To show that someone understood what he faced at the time.

Please remember that the three years following his LSD experience were the most creative of his entire artistic life. After that, the bullshit he got from that list of true villains finally got to him, plus the bad drugs, the food, the conflicts with his wife, the problems with his ideas for new albums, and a host of other issues. I was long gone by then. Keep in mind that Mike called “Good Vibrations” “…a bunch of avant-guard sh*t.” Doesn’t that tell you something? So he wrote a 'hook' -- big deal...

For the record: Brian was driving – very well – during the later hours of his LSD trip. It was easy. His habit at the time was to drive around for hours in West Hollywood turning every two blocks, blasting the radio and thinking. It was second nature for him, so there was no danger. If there had been, I’d have stepped in.

All right, enough…

I’ll keep reading the posts, although it’s upsetting. I will keep track of the issues and post a reply when I feel it’s right. Enough support for me has been shown so far that I’m newly encouraged to continue.

Lorren Daro

The Cialis reply was posted in error. I accidentally copied an email to my doctor...  The drug is used for a prostate problem, not for recreational use -- which I don't need it for.  Sorry...  Lorren Daro -- spelled: Lorren Daro

My main concern when all this started was is this guy an imposter, just some "fan" trying to play a game.The board has seen quite a few over the years.
If this is the real Lorren Daro and I think it most probably is, we should respect him for Brian"s sake. In all the years Iv never heard Brian say anything negative about Lorren Daro the person. I've forgotten the interview, it might of been the Charlie Rose interview with the group, Lorren"s name gets brought up and Brian is the only one (other than David marks) that doesn't have anything negative to say.

Lorren I"am just thinking of the timeline, was it after the smile period that you had left or were you still around in the 70"s ?

Lorren, I am interested to hear your take - including memories of any specific incidents - on the arc of the Smile project, particularly why it was not completed.

Methinks thou doth take boner pills

I've just been looking over this entire thread.  People on the board can agree or disagree Mr. Daro's take on things... it's really immaterial.  What we have here is the viewpoint of someone who was there in the 1960s with Brian Wilson... and it's a rare viewpoint to have on this board.  I will gladly read anything he has to say, as it only increases my knowledge and perspective on the Beach Boys history and music.  Any opinions I have are my own business.  

Thank you for taking the time to post here, Mr. Daro.  I think a lot of people, myself included, are fascinated by what you have to say.

Glad to see that Lorren Daro has rejoined the discussion, continuing to offer his perspective concerning what transpired at the time he and Brian were hanging out in the mid-sixties.  For sure many players at the time would disagree with his take on these events, but since he was there when some when some major stuff was happening from a creative standpoint, it is my hope he'll continue to post and answer questions proffered by SS board members.

I gotta say, though, that the Cialis post baffles me.  If it was cut and pasted in error, is he aware that the post can be edited?  Or was it a subtle way to indicate, after he was referred to as an old guy, that with the benefit of Cialis for Daily Use he's still going strong in the virility dept?

And one more thing - I've had the opportunity to speak with Marilyn Wilson on a few occasions over the years, and she always came across as a very friendly and incredibly nice person.  Plus I absolutely love her singing voice.  Mr. Daro, if you want to be taken seriously, please refrain from the juvenile sounding verbal attacks found in your first post on this board.

I think this latest post is a much better approach to opening the dialogue.  I too am glad to see that you've returned.  There's much to learn.  So I'll read lots...and post little. :hat

I was one of the individuals who supported the original thread staying up instead of being deleted. I look forward to reading more posts from you, Lorren. Is there something you can tell us that would let us know that you're the real Lorren Daro? Do you remember being at Beach Boys recording sessions in the 60's? I hear your name referred to in the Rhonda vocal session tape, and it sounds like you were a friend of Brian's and his assistant. I'm interested in finding out more about your experiences in the studio with Brian & The Boys.

Thanks!

Well....tomorrow WILL be a very interesting day when the gents (and ladies) across the water wake up for their morning tea...    Nice well thought post/rebuttal Mr. Darro.   I have no commentary either way other than your original post of a couple days ago (if presented like this post) would have caused ALOT less furor/angst/and most of all less stress for ALL concerned.  And especially for the mods who truly do a GREAT job when things get out of hand.  I truly understand you have a lot of pent up anger and emotion relating to your past place in history in the BB story.  I get it.  Sure there will be those on the thread will lash out and not agree with your story, but keep on posting like you did this evening and I think you'll get more positive "good vibes" than the negatives. Sure to be a lot of emotion/commotion tomorrow on the thread.  I going to bed early  to get up early  to read what the pundits have to say.  Again thanks for reposting.    

                                            

Glad to see you're back posting, Lorren.

I'm curious what years you were around for so we can better focus our questions for you. Did your time within Brian's scene extend to the Wild Honey or Friends time period at the Bellagio house (those years have always been hard to get much info on)?

We should treat him well because he's a fellow human being.  :)

Welcome back Lorren!...Thank you for returning. I'm sorry for the way some of our forum members treated you.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your experiences.

P.S. You can click the modify button on the upper right of any of your post's and edit the content anytime you want to.

At least it seems he is willing to learn, as he toned down the insults in his new post. I can't understand though that he doesn't understand that name-calling affects his credibility:


And Mr. Daro, what do you mean with "heritage of your race"?

I respect Loren for stepping back into what he knows all too well is a very hostile arena. I also deeply apologise for spelling his surname incorrectly: for someone like me, famously picky/petty about this sort of thing, that's a major misstep on my part,

[edit - I've corrected the spelling in the thread title]

I don't respect him for coming back in itself. I *do* respect him for coming back with a thorough, well written and non-abusive response, however. Had that been how the last thread began, we'd have had no problems in the first place.

For the sake of the people who wanted to hear more, I am glad you're back. I remain skeptical of many of your claims, but I *am* open to hearing more if they're as well spoken as that last post. I'm sorry for calling you a glorified drug hookup. I took offense at your harsh, black/white, not-tactful phraseology and gave it back to you. But if you're willing to continue to explain why you dislike the people you do in the same tactful, well-explained manner as that last post, I'm willing to listen with an open mind.

Right.

Agreed.

Great that this is back on track.  I hope we learn much that adds to the backstory of our favourite band.

I agree that my initial posts were too full of anger. I’m sorry I didn’t calm down and moderate the tone. The anger is still there, but enough of you have objected that I now see your point. More with honey than vinegar, right? A lot of this has been pent up in me for years. Thanks for seeing through the dark clouds and urging me to change my approach. Never too late to learn…

Here are answers to posts I thought deserved one:

I moved to Big Sur and then Carmel Valley in 1969. After that, I cut all my ties to Hollywood, Brian included.

I believe ‘Smile’ wasn’t completed because of objections to it by both Mike Love and the record company, which refused to release it, even if it was completed. I agree with that decision. The music, and the lyrics written by VDP were great, but Brian’s contributions were ludicrous. I mean, “…I gotta eat my vege-tables.” Indeed…

As if this mattered: Cialis has practically no effect on sexual performance at a dose of 5mg, which is what I take. One needs 25mg at least to accomplish that. The drug comes in 5mg, 25mg, 50mg and 100mg versions. The 5mg helps open the prostate gland to make urination easier, and it allows me to avoid the brutal surgery required in order to fix the problem. If you watch a Cialis commercial, they clearly mention its use for prostate problems. I did post it in error. I don’t need to brag about my sex life, which, thankfully is somewhat normal considering my age. Such cynical people some of you are…

I was not at the ‘Rhonda’ sessions. I went to very few sessions other than that I was there for almost the entire run of sessions for ‘Pet Sounds’. I will say that I sat next to Brian on a plane from New York to LA while he wrote that song. I made no contributions to it. Sessions including Mike Love and the Boys were deliberately avoided by me. There was no purpose in doing that. My relationship was with Brian, not his band.

If I have it right, my years with Brian ran from1963, when I was their Tour Manager for a short while (until Mike drove me away screaming) until the end of 1966, when he moved to Bellagio Road. I visited him there once, where he played me some unfinished versions of “Good Vibrations” and “Smile” No vocals, just music. It sounded nice, but there was nothing to think about them.

As to “…the heritage of my race,” it refers to what Susan Sontag labeled the Jews as “The keepers of moral seriousness.” Jews take morality seriously (some, of course, do not), but the overwhelming heritage of Jewish culture with its philanthropy far exceeding the size of its population, the abundance of great Jewish artists, musicians, writers, scientists, financial experts, legal and educational scholars, and Nobel Prize winners speaks volumes about the sense of right and wrong which prevails in this small society. Jews are three percent of the U.S. population – think of their accomplishments in that light.

Lorren Daro

I have a question:

I would like to post a photo of myself and a process for proving who I am -- since so many members are concerned about this. I tried to post the photo with some text using the 'Attachment' feature, but when I previewed the post, no photo was shown. Can you tell me how to post a Reply with a photo and some text. I don't want to post just the text, it's meaningless without the photo.

Thanks,

Lorre Daro

The available documented evidence - a memo stating that that Capitol wanted to release a truncated, 10-track version of Smile after they'd put Smiley Smile out - would argue strongly against this, as would Capitol's increasing desperation in trying to get Brian to finish the damn thing. Of course, it's entirely possible that once they heard it, they might not have released it, but... they released - OK, before someone picks me up, they distributed - Smiley Smile, and that may be the single weirdest album ever recorded by a band of the sixties.

As for Mike, as has been noted before, if he really disliked the songs that much, it would have been so much easier for him to just refuse to sing them. But he did, in some cases superbly (try singing his bass line on "Our Prayer": it's a complete bitch).


Then who was Brian talking to when he asks someone called Loren to "get the others in" ? It's on the tape for the legendary Murry-interrupted vocal session. Mystery.


Brian & Marilyn moved to the Bellagio house in April/May 1967 - Cam has a more exact date. I'm not being picky for the sake of it, just establishing an accurate timeline.

I would very much like to know where the notion that the family and/or band in some way influenced what was, and was not, in Brian's 1991 pseudobiography came from. At this point he was firmly under Landy's control and estranged from both. I'd suggest that whoever told you that was being inventive.

I fully appreciate you may not want to respond to me, but the latter question intrigues.

You can upload your photos here:
http://tinypic.com/

There's an "insert image" function in the reply box - 2nd row of icons, 2nd left, below the I - but said image has to be online somewhere first as it's the url that needs to be inserted.

I too don't want to seem like I'm nitpicking but I asked your timeline because about a year ago I sent an email to you after reading your essay and in your reply to me you said you lost contact with Brian when Dr Landy arrive on the scene, you said there was no more you could do for Brian at that point. Now your saying you cut you contacts at the end of the smile period.

Thank you for answering my question about the race issue. Unlike the common view in my country used to be 80 years ago, I do not see Jews being a "race" any different from my own, just a different cultural background. Personally I think we had more than enough of this "race" nonsense, that's why I was confused by someone bringing up that word.

Yeah, the attachment option is not very usefull. It's very limited when it comes to kB's, and even when you use a low-res picture, it often results in arror-messages. Sorry.

Depending on where you'd like to post it; ff you'd like to add a picture in a reply, the best way is to upload it, is with www.tinypic.com and copy-paste the url (like halblaineisgood just advised)

If you'd like to add a picture to your profile (an avatar), you can do so by going to your personal settings (Profile info > Forum Profile Information). You can either copy-paste an url link, or directly upload a picture (the last option does require a picture of max. 20kb only)

This is so interesting!  Some of you have questions regarding exact dates/times etc?  You obviously know your stuff, but how often does a fan know more about the details of their idol than the idol themselves does?  How often does someone remember what month they moved house, let alone when an acquaintance did?  Would I remember what month one of my friends moved house 20 years ago?  Not a chance. A lot of people here know the details of recording sessions etc because they have studied it, researched it and live and breathe it,  you probably know way more than Brian does about it.  Not saying Loren is right or wrong....     Again this is so interesting!!! :)

You'd be surprised. One of the band - no names, no pack drill - was, until someone played him the album in question, convinced that a certain song was never released - which it was - and swore black was white that he didn't sing the lead on it - which he did.

Now, personal, day-to-day life details... that's something else. No, of course we don't.

That's exactly what I mean AGD! :)  Fans oftentimes know more.  I wonder if Brian would remember when he moved to Bellagio?   Day to day life details?  Fans wouldn't know and Idols wouldn't remember :)

Let's see... which one is known for having a REALLY bad memory on such things... that of course is no other than... ;D

Lorren,

"End of 1966" makes sense. Brian took a contract on the Bellagio house in March 1967 and there is a press account from April 1967 of their moving.  We had a few conversations about 15 ears ago and I remember you telling me then that you sort of withdrew from Brian's scene around the Pet Sounds/SMiLE period.

I'd like to hear more about your "salons" if you care to share sometime.

Cialis is available in 2.5mg, 5mg, 10mg, and 20mg strengths. most men take 10mg or 20mg for boners.
Viagra is available in 25mg, 50mg and 100mg strengths.

just an fyi.......

Al and Honkin Down the Highway?  :)

How did Van Dyke feel about Brian's ludicrous contributions back in the day?

I would like to know what artists/styles of music you guys were listening to at your house parties, and did anybody bring music with them, or were you at the helm where that was concerned. (since these were held at your home)

I ask because you made a comment about "Vegetables" being a song you weren't fond of, and I know it's a favorite here, so it made me wonder what kinds of music "turned you on" in your life. I imagine you must be well aware of the entire "culture" that sprang up around the non-release of SMiLE, and I think some of our members are going to be squirming in their seats a bit that someone who was there wasn't completely knocked out by it.

Royce  :)

Loren, do you suffer from (or do you suspect you suffer from) any mental conditions? Like psychopathy, sociopathy et cetera?

Um... correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Van Dyke write those lyrics... and didn't Brian never write his own lyrics ?  :angel:

Seconded, AGD. This Daro canonization is getting weirder and weirder.

Did he forget that he sang the lead vocal on it when he re-recorded it for his own solo album as well?

Nothing daro is saying is making sense. It's all contradictary posts that seem to want to put BW in the worst light possible.

He makes sense to me. I am curious to hear more from him.

Lorren,

I have just a few questions for now.  You say that Capitol was not going to release the Smile album, even if Brian had finished it.  However, Capitol had already started the promotion machine rolling for the album by late '66, and had hundreds of thousands of album covers and booklets printed up in advance of them (Capitol) receiving any final product from Brian.  At that point, obviously, they were planning on releasing the album, including the song "Vegetables".  Are you saying that at some point in time, they informed Brian that they were not going to release the album even if he finished it, or is that just a feeling that you got from the way things were going?  Did you and Van Dyke ever discuss the direction that Brian was taking with the album in early '67?  Did you ever get the impression that Brian thought that Van Dyke's lyrics were too 'sophisticated' or 'avant garde' for a Beach Boys record? 

I could ask more, but I'll stop here.  If you respond, I may have more questions for you.  Thank you for sharing whatever pieces of information that you remember...I know that was a long time ago.

Artie

There are some glaring issues that I find beyond outrageous.  

First, you knew or should have known that Brian was in a somewhat fragile state (after largely leaving the live shows) when you allegedly helped provide an "experience" to "enhance creativity."  Many "show biz" boomers have been similarly exploited, by predatory managers, etc.

Second,  there appears a complete refusal and failure to appreciate the "collateral damage" that was inflicted on those who were in Brian's "sphere" including a spouse, children, extended family, band members, and corporate entity, alongside Brian as a result of this or these events.  There appears to have absolutely no remorse for the harm inflicted.

Third, an attempt to contort an "epiphany" 1981 with some "healthy lifestyle choices" as a sort of self-absolution is ridiculous.

And, fourth, blaming those in this "sphere" as "non-supportive." This appears to be classic "victim-blaming."  It is the rapist blaming the rape event on a "short skirt." It is the murderer of a doctor blaming the death of his mother on the surgeon.  

And, I would liken it to a spouse who comes home drunk, and incapacitated to function as a responsible parent, breadwinner, and supportive spouse, and all happening with a "new best friend."  I would liken it to someone who gets your kid hooked on drugs, wreaking havoc on an entire family, his or her friends, a job, a school experience that becomes an overnight failure, etc.  Over 80 of my former students are dead from drugs. That is about a funeral or two, a month for the last 10 years, and math is not my strong suit.  "Collateral damage" from predators.

Following this reported "event," there are disconnected relationships, hospitalizations and stress that is unending, aggravating an apparent preexisting condition, and no apparent remorse forthcoming. If you were an interloper in my life, with a family member, you'd hear plenty of "Italian-style" hollering.  The whole concept of positioning Marilyn in an "enemy" concept is beyond absurd.  And, I do not know her, except from her reputation of a singer, good mom, and spouse who appears to have been supportive. I am not a witness but suspect, as with these "inconsistencies" this is not credible.

Ex.  The Post-LSD Syndrome: Diagnosis and Treatment by Irwin I. Roth. "The author proposes the recognition of a condition, which he terms The Post LSD Syndrome, in which patients who have had prior experience with LSD experience a triad of distressing symptoms, the triad of unique symptoms consists of a sleep disturbance, anxiety and forms of mental instability which are described in detail.  These symptoms can occur after decades of even one exposure to LSD.  The author describes in detail a variety if case studied which illustrate the various forms of pathology which the condition can manifest.

Typical cases which consist of a fairly clear and direct presentation of the basic triad of symptoms are described, as are atypical cases in which other symptoms may appear to predominate, such as depression and addictions.  Situations in which other conditions may coexist with The LSD-Syndrome and in which they reenforce each other, such as PTSD, are also described. The book is written for the benefit of the general public as well as for professionals, in the hope of helping people obtain treatment."  This is the book promo.

This "creativity defense" is utter and irresponsible nonsense that has been propagandized by those who did not have to live with the consequences and who seek to "study" and "publish" studies.  People can be creative without the "benefit" of drugs.  In the interest of fairness, I have read that LSD has been used in a very limited context in the medical context for difficult-to-treat depression, to be fair.  However, this is different from "street dispensation" of a then-known dangerous substance. ***

***"Lysergic acid diethylamide comes from ergot mold, synthesized by Albert Hoffman in 1938. In the 1950's the CIA thought the drug would be applicable for mind control and chemical warfare." (Wiki)

JMHO

My thoughts exactly. Information about Brian and the rest of them is what we all are looking for here, aren't we? We may not like some of it but oh well. We are getting some first hand experiences handed to us on a silver platter. How often does that happen? As with Ray's posts, we're getting gifts that don't happen in Smiley Smiledom nearly enough.

I have not much to add but I just wanna point out the only way you can be sure to sell a million units... in January... is by releasing the album. And you claim they did not wanna release the album? Then why promote it?

Maybe you just forgot about being at the session, Lorren. It's on the session tape, though we don't hear your voice. There was nobody else named Lorren or even "Laura" in the Beach Boy world at that time. Also, the original version of Rhonda was recorded in early January, 1965, which means it had to have been written in late 1964, or very early 1965 when he was resting at home in L.A. after the nervous breakdown in December.


It's interesting that you were The Beach Boys' tour manager in 1963. I know Murry played an active roll in touring with them and being their manager in '63, then handed the reigns to David Marks' Dad for awhile until Murry re-assumed responsibility, then was ousted in early 1964. Do you remember any stories from being their tour manager back then?

Among them Brian Wilson himself on the board as a member and answering questions.

Just keeping it in perspective.  ;)

Absolutely! What a great time to be a member of this board as it unfolds into a new era. Love it! :woot :woot :woot

Lorren,

I was one of those who castigated you for taking the "low road" instead of the "high road" in your first post.  I disclosed that I am a personal friend of Marilyn Wilson-Rutherford, however I have only known Marilyn for the last 25 years, so I can't speak to her actions 50 years ago, other than what she has told me in personal conversations (which are obviously from her perspective).  I'll admit that I was offended by your tone and choice of words directed at my friend -- and at a lady in general.  Down south (I was born and raised in Jackson, Mississippi, less than two hours away from Hattiesburg where Van Dyke was born -- he and I have discussed this several times) we just don't do that to a lady -- at least in public!  I felt that you could have gotten your point across in a public forum with less offensive terms such as "naive," "immature," "over-protective" "ill-prepared to be a wife at 16 years old," "ill-prepared to be the wife of a musical genius at 19," etc., and even with regards to your personal relationship with her, "disliked me," "didn't trust me," even perhaps "hated me."  All of which I could have tolerated, and most of which I would probably agree with.

I respect your decision to return to this board, and I will try to read with an open mind -- as long as the blows remain "above the belt."

Lee

In all fairness, back in the mid 60s when people started popping trips like it was going out of fashion, few had any idea of what the long term effects of LSD could do to them.

And, I might add, in 1965 LSD was not yet an illegal substance.  I was going to comment on some of filledeplage's comments, but I thought better of it.  I will say this...during the '90s I played in a band with a guy who had grown up in L.A. in the '60s.  He, in fact, became a member of a very famous group, and they had several hit records in the late '60s / early '70s.  I spoke with him often about his own experiences with various substances back then, and he said that virtually everyone who was a musician in L.A. in the '60s did one drug or another (or several, of course).  It was the norm, rather than the exception.

Plus it was undiluted acid back then, very strong, and much different than today's LSD.

Hi Lorren,

Thanks for taking the trouble to return. Quite daunting I'm sure, so respect to you.

I've said my bit in your defense so won't clog this thread up any more with that stuff. I hope your time here is not entirely unpleasant and can see there is quite a lot of interest in what you have to say which is heartening.

My question, which may have already been asked, is a broad one really. Do you have any specific or fond memories of your time with Brian and Van Dyke Parks relating to their work on Smile? Do you remember Brian's sandbox for instance? Or did you ever see them discussing, or working on specific Smile songs?
 
Perhaps the following titles might jog your memory but no worries if not:

Surf's Up
Heroes and Villains
Do you Like Worms
Cabinessence
Wonderful
Fire
The Elements

Best,

Buddhahat

Mikes Beard and Lost Art - I do get what went on in the 1960's, being a 60's kid and went to college and grad school in the 70's. Dr. Tim Leary wrote and espoused this transhumanist concept involving "space migration, intelligence increase and life extension." (SMI2LE ) (the 2 should be as in 2 squared and I'm on an ipad.) He was involved with LSD experimentation. They knew in the 40's and 50's it was dangerous.  If the CIA was contemplating using if for mind control and chemical warfare and Leary was a PhD, he should have known the risks. Leary was not an MD. I'm not looking at legal issues but moral issues.

What I have just read on Tim Leary is that he used psilocybin (Mexican mushroom) with psychedelic properties on a "cohort" of Concord prison inmates, and Andover Theological Seminarians as subjects.  His career is a very checkered one, to say the least, from what I have read, and allegedly inflating his research results. This is a huge oversimplification.  And yes, it is widely known that lots were involved.  

But I guess my point and question would be the collateral damage to the whole "sphere."  And whether there was some kind of "agency relationship" between the two persons.  Meaning as between Brian and Mr. Daro.  Did he have a duty, by extension, to the band, if he was a manager to protect him, and thus protect the band as well, by extension? Now, I'm looking at legal and moral issues.  

And Mikie is correct on potency.

This guy is 75. Brian appears to be so forgiving of so much, without formal apologies.  One only needs to look at him while being serenaded at the Kennedy Center a few years ago.  I think Mikie linked that the other night. Thanks.

Maybe Mr. Daro should say he is sorry, even if he was "asked" to procure the stuff for his "error in judgment."  Brian is on our forum!

Maybe it is time. Just sayin'.   ;)

Brian potentially answering questions, as to date , he hasn't answered any. 

Just keeping it in perspective.

Concerning the lyric issue:  he did, it seemed to me, acknowledge his error on this, or at least his error in how he worded himself, in his last, long, post.

It seems incredible to me that just in these past few days we suddenly have Lorren Daro, Mike Love and Brian Wilson all presenting themselves here.   This is really by chance, coincidence, synchronicity?   Now that's groovy!  
This is the most exciting thing to happen on this board since....since....well, for me, ever!   :happydance

Agreements with others though who have stated that we can all have a discussion without resorting to truly repugnant means of expression.  There are ways to express negative/contrary opinions and/or thoughts without being stupid and foul mouthed.

Question for Lorren:  What have you against Vega-Tables, exactly?   That it is, seemingly, a silly, child-like song?   Does everything need to be so serious and lofty?   What about some good old fashioned goofy, silly fun?   Just asking.

Mr. Daro said that he was a tour manager for a brief time in 1963.  By 1965 he was no longer working for the band, and was just a friend of Brian's.  No legal issues there.

While Mikie is correct that LSD was more potent then, it was also a cleaner dose.

As much as we do know now about how LSD can affect some people, we do not know exactly how it affected Brian.  We know that it may have played a role in Brian's downward slide, but considering all the other substances that he and half of L.A. were taking, and the mental health issues that he was born with, we just don't know.  But let's for a minute assume that the LSD played a significant role in Brian's decline.  Does Mr. Daro owe Brian an apology?  Well, he said that they spent the day together in the Bay area a few years ago talking about old times.  Perhaps he apologized then.   

I was under the impression that LSD back then is basically the same as it is now. That 125ug from the 60's would be the same as 125ug today, provided they were dosed correctly.

Nope. It was much, much purer, much more potent.

I checked with two people on that. Fred Vail vaguely recalled the name (Lorren Schwartz, not Daro) and allowed that he might have been tour manager for a short time... David Marks had never heard of the name at all.

Hmmm.  Might have been, then?

Fred says maybe, David says never heard of him. Go figure.

Somewhat more pertinent was Lorren's response on his blog last night when informed that VDP had tweeted “I confirm Lorren Daro’s account of the 60s: an inconvenient truth, in its candor. Never judge a book by its movie!”

"Wow! What a relief that VDP posted that Twitter! What a slap in the face for all those mindless pricks that inhabit that Website. I love him so much…

Thanks for letting me know, dear Buddhahat…"

Odd how buddhahat neglected to clue us in about that...  still, nice of Mr. Daro to come back to straighten things out with us mindless pricks. I may be a prick now and then, but I'm not mindless.

To prove this we'll have to run some experiments on Andrew using current LSD and a stack of Carol Kaye documentation in a controlled environment.

(http://www.xolton.com/images/DRLSD1.jpg)

You're not a prick...just a hard workin' guy.  ;)



edit:  There are some mindless pricks here, though.


Kidding...I kid. :angel:

According to him, I'm a mindless prick - we all are - and he knows. He was here.  ;D

Seriously, if you're trying to rebuild an already tarnished image, that's really, really not going to help.

I bet our guests don't expect the Spanish Inquisition when they come here to share.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Cardinal Fang, fetch the Comfy Chair!

And a cup of coffee at 11:00.

You've made many derogatory remarks about Lorren Daro here so I'm sure you're one if the people he's referring to. Does his response surprise you? Can you really claim it's unjustified in light of the vitriol you've directed towards him, in part, about his appearance - something he has no control over?

And why would I post his comments here? What good would it do? It might seem like I was suggesting you are all mindless pr*cks (which I'm not btw). There's just no rational reason I would share that info with you when you can find it out for yourself. The only info I recounted from his site was stuff I thought would be interesting to the board.

I throw the towel in here. I think it's a great shame that some seem hell bent on stirring up more controversy when we have an opportunity of maybe finding out some more interesting details about this period.

Looking forward to BW on Monday. Let's hope AGD, the human fact-checker, doesn't sabotage that opportunity too.

As I said, for anyone wanting to improve their perceived image, it's a really dumb thing to do.

And yes, of course it's directed at me, and all the others looking at his piece and thinking either "that sort of language isn't necessary" or "something not quite right here", or both. It's very hard to have an unbiased view on someone who's just called you a mindless prick, essentially behind your back. My name's not Mohandas K. Ghandi.

But weight is weight, 125ug back then is still 125ug today.

Sure it was more readily available and reliably dosed back then, but that same chemical still exists today.

I, for one, vote in favor of hearing everything Daro has to say.  The bickering going on here is needless noise.

Me too...Let's not chase the guy away again...or do something to spark him into typing a response that'll get this thread closed and removed too.  Been there.  Done that.  Got the T-Shirt...and it reads "We're Habitually Stupid!!!"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just to ne 100% clear here..."WE'RE" is pointed at ALL of us and not at ANY single entity particiapting in this or in the previous thread.  We all share in the collective vibe...me included.

Beer is beer, but there's 2.1%. 3.0%. 4.4%...

I mean, I get that. But the point I'm trying to make is that LSD doses of the same 60's purity still do exist, even if they're not as common.

Been following this alternately fascinating and disheartening thread for the last day or two.

My main question is: Why must Lorren Daro be right for his contributions to this forum to be valuable? He is not a scholar, he is not a professional expert writing a history of the band or Brian Wilson. He is a participant in the story at a particular period of time, and anyone who has done in-depth research or conducted interviews knows that the memories of participants can be wildly divergent, and often incorrect.

The value of what Lorren might have to contribute is not in its factual accuracy, but in his perspective. You may think his perspective is wrong on many issues, but that doesn't make it valueless. His perspective--especially when very different from the consensus--is exactly what makes his comments potentially interesting to us. We don't have to agree with them, and it's perfectly fine to personally believe they may be skewed by an agenda, but exploring them with him, by weaving another voice into the fabric, can only make our understanding of this time period fuller. Just use your brains, the confirmed facts, and your own judgment to evaluate the accuracy or potential accuracy of what you're hearing.

One specific comment: It's not really so surprising Daro might not remember being at the "Help Me, Rhonda" session, even if he was, in fact, there. After all, the infamous dialogue tape suggests very little of value was recorded that day. Perhaps Daro has no memory of being at a Rhonda session because it wasn't even apparent what they were recording that day?

Finally a voice of reason. What he said.

I would like to suggest also, the idea that "being right" or "correct" as far as ones opinions on nouns (e.g. people, places and things) such as Daro has presented, is often dependent on each persons particular view point/perspective.   Meaning: when it comes to events that happen there is often not simply one black and white "truth" to it.

Not to pick on Marilyn at all, but by way of example: in the moment and time of some of these events she may have impressed some people as, shall we say - "not at her best".  Even though really, and particularly NOW, she is very likely an incredibly sweet and wonderful human being.  
We really are all "heroes and villains".   This human condition we all inhabit is a ridiculously intricate, nuanced and malleable thing.   There could never be a coin with enough sides to flip on the variables involved.  

What they said.  :)

I agree. I understand being angry with me, but "mindless pricks" seems like a particularly juvenile and somewhat unwarranted insult. "Overzealous" "SJW" "moral crusader" even "white knights" I could understand. But mindless? The complaints against him were entirely warranted considering what he said. Pricks? Well, you started the name-calling, not I. I think I'm a pretty even-tempered, conciliatory person for the most part. Only times when I lost my cool were to Mikie and you, Daro, and I believe I was completely justified in both instances.

I have to agree, that insult and the further inaccuracies and contradictions in your story, only further reinforces my initial impression. Just sayin'.

... okay, we already locked and removed one Daro-thread; please don't let this one derail any further resulting in another topic we have to close. Please move on, agree-to-disagree, etc.

Btw, the 'mindless pricks' remarks was quoted directly from Daro's blcok (if I recall correctly), so it's mentioning here wasn't a direct call out from one board member to another to begon with. Yet we take it personal again... sheehs....

Well said SMiLE Holland.

Touchy bunch, ain't we?

Lorren, thank you for your reply.  Are you aware of any instances of Brian destroying or erasing tapes out of frustration, anger, discouragement, etc?  

And do you have an opinion why Brian started re-recording 'Smile' tracks almost obsessively; for instance, was it his personal creative perfectionism that drove him, or some other reason (self-doubt due to criticism, commercial pressure, pressure from group, etc)?

That specific Rhonda session has been on collector's cassette tapes, then CD's, then YouTube, and web sites and blogs all over the internet. It's been public domain for many years. If I knew The Beach Boys and/or someone else knew that I knew The Beach Boys and this tape was brought to my attention and they asked, "Mike, is that you that Brian Wilson is talking to on this Beach Boys session tape along with his drunk father?", I'd know it right away. When I first heard the tape and Brian was heard calling for "Lorren", I immediately knew it was Lorren Schwartz, the guy I'd previously read about in articles and books related to The Beach Boys. There aren't that many guys with the first name "Lorren" out there.  Plus, Lorren says he was at the Pet Sounds sessions, which were only one year after the the Rhonda sessions. I'm thinking pretty much anybody who was there would remember Murry coming in (first time since he was fired the year before?) and all but ruining the session. Another memorable event would be Brian throwing Murry up against the wall during an "I Get Around" session.

But I don't fault Mr. Daro for not remembering the Rhonda session specifically. It was a long time ago, and my memory is starting to fade about 1965 events and highlights too!  Some things you remember and some you don't, that's all. I would hope he'd remember, though.

The "Rhonda" sessions are epochal to the people THAT WEREN'T THERE. For Daro, it was probably just another argument between Brian and Murry, and hence, not overly memorable. This whole "Gotcha! You were actually there on 6/24/64, liar!" nonsense is tiresome. I get the need to get the facts right, but this insane obsession with specific dates and events just isn't how people remember their lives.

Nobody here has ever called Lorren a liar for not remembering the Rhonda session, there, Cohen of Controversy. Get your facts straight.

When he first appeared, people were questioning if it was a hoax for those sorts of reasons. That's what I was referring to.

I, too, couldn't agree more with the above post.

I have found it mystifying how much ire has been thrown back at Lorren Daro. Only Lee Dempsey to me articulated his perspective with any real emotional truth. I now get where Lee was coming from and it makes total sense. Others, not so much. This place felt a bit like a Wild West posse. Did Lorren murder all of our daughetrs or something? Sheesh.

Most everyone seems to agree (even Lorren himself now) that his initial post crossed the line in the tact and respect department. So yeah, guilty as charged. So he may have some facts wrong (from 40-50 years ago). So he may have an agenda, a bias. Who doesn't? So as long as he makes an effort to work more toward a respectful dialogue, please, for the love of God, let's not chase him off again just because we might not agree with everything or even mistrust some of it.

That said I totally support the mods. Pulling the thread isn't something i would have done personally (I think - hard to say as an observer), but I respect their decision, given some of the more scathing personal remarks that were made there.

One thing really cracks me up here. All the Johnny-Cum-Lately's that have made comments who weren't even around to read the first thread. They comment on the comments of the posters who were actually there to read Mr. Daro's initial posts with their own observations and after-the-fact comments. Some jump on the ol' proverbial bandwagon and some make it known that they're clearly not going to jump. It's just funny.  :-D

I would like to respectfully suggest at this point that we try to shift the emphasis here to asking Lorren Daro as many questions as we can regarding his experiences, impressions--and opinions--with respect to the time he was Brian's friend.

I would suggest that we compile the questions and then refrain from replying until Lorren (if he is so inclined) completes answering the entire list of questions or indicates to us that he's completed what he is willing, alble and ready to address. I am confident he will candid, possibly in ways that will be uncomfortable to some. But, as has been stated, this is a fascinating and rare opportunity, and we should understand that and act accordingly.

I believe that this group can compile an incredible, highly encompassing set of queries and this would make for a fascinating parallel with the analogous event that is apparently going to occur with Brian.

Once that is completed, then fur may fly--or not--it will be a Smiley Smile free-for-all. In anticipation of that, I have just acquired a flak jacket that rumor has it was formerly owned by a Mr. A.G. Doe, who outgrew it and now is sporting even more formidable attire.

 :hat

I think asking Lorrem questions is totally ok. It's up to each one of us to filter the answers to our liking. No insider carries the gospel or real truth on two stone tablets, no matter how much he's been or currently is Brian's friend. Everyone's biased.

So Lorren...Good evening to you.  Hope you're feelin' OK...and a little more relaxed.  I want to pick your brain a touch.  Back when Brian had 'Pet Sounds' pretty much ready for the rest of the group to add in their vocals...thats after he'd recorded most if not all of the instrumentation and had already recorded his own vocals onto most of the tracks...what was going through his head?  THEY were coming back from being on the road...in Japan was it?  He was sitting there with a bold new expression for a group hopefully looking forward to a brighter future.  Was he excited or apprehensive about the reaction he was going to get?  What did he expect to hear from them collectively and individually?

That was weird.

Excellent point.  Let's not forget that Brian and Mike can't agree when and where they wrote Fun, Fun, Fun, with Brian telling Mike, "Your brain is getting senile!"

Mr Daro can you please explain this to me. The time you explained the timeline to me is vastly different to what you had said previously to me, about a decades difference.

And earlier he said he'd been in contact with him a couple of years ago :/

OK, here's my question - Lorren, do you have any particularly memorable experiences you'd like to share of time spent hanging out with Brian Wilson, Tony Asher, and/or Van Dyke Parks?

To be hairsplittingly correct, he only said there are mindless pricks inhabitating this forums but not specifically that all posters here are. But I guess we can take it as very likely that he included you in this category. ;D Probably me too, as I do not have a favorable opinion on people who expectorate insults like "mindless pricks" at such a rate. That doesn't mean his perspective wasn't interesting to know, as other posters pointed out.



Taht would be a good alternate name for the Beach Boys. "Dave Marks And The Touchy Bunch" :-D



Many people from the 60s say they don't remember much of the time due to some substances... ;D



Were Brian and Mike even there when they wrote it? :-D



THE COMFY CHAIR??!? :o :o :o :o

What, are you questioning his wisdom? Well obviously you sir, are a mindless prick!  ;D

Just like when you've liked a band your whole life and then someone comes along and starts liking them too, and it's just soooo annnoying, right?  Cos you discovered them first,  and who are they to have an opinion...  THEY WEREN"T THERE AT THE BEGINNING!  ;)

Anyway,  Lorren,  maybe  Marilyn was just scared to death of drugs, rather than trying to hold him back? Maybe she also didn't fit in with the crowd and felt intimidated?

The following is a comment posted on WordPress by ‘Johann’

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my opinion, some of those self-styled historians at the Smiley Smile board come off as a bit creepy, and can't see the forest for the trees.

How any of them could possibly know how Brian's wife treated him or Lorren behind closed doors 50 years ago  is beyond me.
 
I found the following passage on page 134 of the Steven Gaines "Heroes and Villains" book to be interesting:

”According to Marilyn Wilson, Loren Schwartz began to rule Brian's life. "Brian was just completely taken with him," she said. Feisty and dedicated (LD: Wrong), Marilyn kept up an active campaign for Brian to end their friendship. "(Brian) would always want me to go over to Loren's house, and I would say, "No, I'm not comfortable with those people." (LD: Lynda and her got along fine)

When the fighting over Loren became explosive, Marilyn threw up her hands.
 
The book goes on to say Marilyn separated from Brian, who didn't seem to care about the separation, at first. Marilyn said, "He wasn't devastated at all." (LD: She’s right, he wasn’t – she wasn’t Diane)

Ultimately they reconciled but "Brian's fascination with Loren Schwartz and drugs did not end, and soon Loren was a daily visitor to Laurel Way."
----
If even half of this scene is true, then it's not difficult to see why Lorren doesn't view Marilyn in the same way as many of her supporters at the Smiley Smile board, most of whom have likely never met her, or know her beyond fawning over her during a short meeting, or being a Facebook 'friend' of hers.

Continue to fight the good fight, Lorren.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone wishes to read the original essay I posted on WordPress, which began this whole controversy, here is the Website:

https://lorrendaro.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/brian-wilson-and-lsd/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AGD: As to asking me to ‘…get the others in.’ It’s long ago, but I think I was in the studio with Brian and some musicians and Murry, over the PA, asked me to bring them into the booth to hear a playback. Aside: After I had confronted Murry (before this) and got in his face, he realized that I wouldn’t take any sh*t from him, he became sort-of friendly with me. I think because I had more sway with Brian at that point then he did. Brian either had just, or was about to, fire Murray as manager. I can’t recall the dates or the sequence. Perhaps some of you can fill me in.

As to the Bellago move, I was on the road with some group in early 1967. It makes sense that Brian moved from Laurel Way in April, 1967. What I should have said was that I left my relationship with Brian at the end of 1966, even though he didn’t make the move until April, 1967. I saw him once more later in 1967 when I heard the tapes I described. I had been living in Japan. It was just a visit to the new house and not a continuation of our relationship. Hope this makes sense. I can’t speak to the autobiography or Landy. I was long gone by then.

Micha: I used the word ‘race’ as an easy metaphor for Jewish culture and society. We use the word among ourselves because we feel like one. I should have used a different word, but it comes so easily.

MrRobinsonsFather: I’m sorry but I can’t remember the dates involved with Landy and when I left. That period is too hazy for me, and was also when I replied to your email. I think I left before, or just as, Landy’s invasion. I remember conversations with our mutual friends about Landy, and I smelled a rat immediately. I wasn’t wrong.

To Cam: I don’t know if you ever read my essay, but I think there’s enough there to describe the ‘salons’. If you need more, I can dredge up some details.

Thank you, Wild Honey, you describe my calendar predicament perfectly. I was inside it all, not outside taking notes. Maybe I need a hypnotist…

Dancing Bear: VDP would tell you this: He agreed with me about how ludicrous Brian’s lyrics were, but his collaborations were seen by him as furthering his career – and VDP isn’t shy about saying so. He recently wrote an article for TheDailyBeast.com describing Brian as being a ‘bully’ when he worked with him. Some of you may not know it, but VDP is an international star. He is welcome in Japan and all over Europe to give concerts, and his records sell well everywhere but here. He, too, is a musical genius, but not an idiot. If he put his mind to it, he’d be a major poet. Why SS members hate him, I can’t understand…

Tricycle: I’m sorry, but ‘Smile’ is a mess. There’s no accounting for taste. At my home, the stars were The Beatles, Crosby, Stills and Nash, Motown, Ray Charles (‘Drown in My Own Tears’ Wow!), a number of folk groups, Brian’s acetates – straight from the machine, Dylan, of course… I’ll try to think of others.

Modern Cargo: At times, I have described myself as a ‘benign sociopath.’ I don’t particularly like society, with its herd mentality and rampant violence, bigotry and greed. I have never had a breakdown or a mental illness. I prefer one-to-one relationships. The minute you’re with more than two people, it all falls apart. I’m an only child accustomed to being alone – preferring it, actually. I always had one best friend and one woman in my life. I was married for seventeen years to Lynda, two kids, boy and girl, now in their forties. Always a bit strange, no small talk, philosophical mind, drawn to metaphysics. Always felt out of place, corporations seemed like monasteries to me. Could read and write at two. Skipped a year in school. Grad of UCLA. Lived by my wits, free from nine to five. Mom thought I was crazy. Sent me to a shrink. He told me it was my Mom who was crazy. Kicked me out after three months, saying I didn’t need him. Lovely guy. I hope your question was serious and not sarcasm…

Oh, AGD: You know that Brian fed his ideas to his collaborators and they wrote the lyrics for him – ask Tony Asher. Brian usually knew what he wanted to say, but couldn’t fit the words into the music. The people he worked with knew how to do that. Do you really think that VDP would write a song about how much he loved vegetables. Stop provoking me or I’ll revert to my evil twin.

LostArt: I never discussed the direction of VDP’s collaboration with Brian at the time. Everyone thought that VDP’s lyrics were too sophisticated to work with ‘Smile.’ I don’t know who told me that Capitol refused to release it. But it was very clear at the time that they did. This was at the end of my journey with Brian, so I wasn’t deeply in enough to know the details. Am I wrong in thinking that VDP and Brian collaborated on ‘Surf’s Up’ and ‘Sail On Sailor’? I loved those cuts. If so, those collaborations worked while ‘Smile’ didn’t. I’m sorry if SS members aren’t happy that I don’t like ‘Smile.’ I’m determined to be honest here, for good or ill. I owe that to both you and myself. I try not to bullshit anyone.

Filledeplage:  You are about as full of sh*t as anyone I have ever had contact with. You are so far off the mark that it’s truly astonishing. Obviously, you have never taken LSD, and you read too many books and believe them without true contemplation. You folks think I’m full of bile and invective. This guy makes me feel like a saint. Please don’t write to me again as I will ignore you.

Modern Cargo: My impression was that Capitol was ready for a blockbuster, but when they heard the finished product, they wrote off the PR and bailed out. Again, I don’t blame them. This used to happen a lot when groups were like demigods and had great influence with the record companies. They learned quickly to rein them in.

As I said, Mikie, I’m confused about the dates. Knowing the date Brian fired Murry might help. Did I start being Tour Manger after he was fired, or in between somewhere? I only did one tour with the BB’s. Stayed in New York, toured New England. Hanging with Mike Love once was enough for me. Greener pastures lay beyond. No particular memories. Just another bunch of concerts like the hundreds that were ahead of me for eight more years.

Paul J B: Hey, Paul, did you ever meet ML? If you had you would sing a different tune. Of course, he did his work. Why not? It made him a fortune. His resentment of Brian and his toxic jealousy of him created a poisonous stew. Did you know that ML hired a virtual army of lawyers who pursued Brian for years demanding royalties for songs he never contributed to? It made Brian sick. I saw the pain and sorrow it caused him. And I think it contributed strongly to his drift into hard drugs and mental illness. So many people hate ML. Do you think we’re all crazy?

LeeDempsey: Would you prefer to write my responses for me?

My pal Buddhahat: I wasn’t around when VDP and Brian worked together. I was around when he worked with Tony Asher, however. Yes, of course I remember the sandbox. Also the blue gym mats lining the entire living room floor in the Laurel Way house. The famous tent had no opening in the top. The smoke was unbearable. I told Brian to open it up, but he said having it closed was the point. The pro jukebox was some Beatles, but mostly Phil Spector. We went to his house together one evening. He met us at the door wearing large foam ears and feet, but we never mentioned them. The conversation was awkward. Two more different people you could not imagine. See my previous comments about ‘Surf’s Up’ and ‘Heroes and Villains’. I loved those songs…

Filledeplage: I’m 77 and I have nothing to apologize for. Please don’t ask again. I know what I did, and it was right.

Senorpotatohead: No, dear Senor, we can’t. No room in this seriously screwed up world for childish nursery rhymes. We need a deeper understanding of ourselves and our motives and actions in this life. Artists are here to help us, to enlighten us, to drive us forward into love and understanding. What the hell do we need an ode to vegetables for? Just asking…

Lost Art: Once again, no problems, only superb creativity for three years following his trip. The lack of understanding and compassion of the people around him – Marilyn and ML included – drove him down. The coke, the speed, the food, the agoraphobia conspired to finish him off. I often think of him today as a great oak, hollowed out, as if from a fire…

AGD: I knew Fred Vail from my agency work with GAC and Ashley-Famous. I founded their rock divisions in 1963 and 1966, respectively and booked many a group with the concerts he promoted. Ask him if he remembers the Four Seasons West coast tour in 1963. He made a fortune. I booked it. I never knew David Marks.

AGD: I didn’t mean you, AGD. I meant those other mindless pricks that inhabit this site. Ask Buddahat about them…

Cam: You are too cool for school…

Everyone: Oh, stop with the paranoia for crissakes! Just because I used the word, ‘we’re’, aren’t you guys hip enough to know that I meant the mean-spirited, mindless asses that spew vindictive and uniformed criticism, and not those of you with rational and reasonable minds? You know who you are, and, unfortunately, the asses don’t know who they are…

Jesse Reiswig:  Oh, Jesse, I love you…

Mujan: Oh, Mujan, can I ever get you to love me…?

Michael Paul Garneau: You are SO right!

Les P: I wasn’t aware of Brian destroying tapes. My impression during that visit to Bellagio, was that Brian was frantic and falling apart. All those negative forces were falling in on him. I didn’t get the music I heard. He played several different versions but I couldn’t sort them out. He was clearly on drugs, and it was the last time I was interested in seeing him. There was nothing I could do to help him…

Don Malcolm: Again, you save the day! I love you, too…

Add Some: Good question. Yes, Brian was apprehensive, and he was right to feel that way. He knew how difficult it was going to be with ML. Carl and Al, and Dennis for the vocals, not the drums, of course, weren’t going to be a problem. But anything that wasn’t going to drag in more groupies (many ultimately wives) for ML wasn’t going to sit well with him. If I remember correctly, his first question was, “How are we going to perform this?, and he was right to feel that way, too. A big change that changed everything.

MrRobinsonsFather: I’m not sure what you mean. I left the relationship just before he moved from Laurel Way. I saw him the last time much later for one day at the Bellagio house. I had been living in Japan for a year in between. We met again around 1998 (I said a ‘few years,’ not a couple) in San Francisco for a day. You’ll have to help me to fill in the blanks you are perceiving…

Custom Machine: Every day with Brian was thrilling. A true musical genius and the sweetest person one could ever know. His greatest charm was his self-effacement. Tony Asher was my best friend for nine years and I loved him. Van Dyke is a true poet and a genius in his own right. In a town full of uneducated charlatans in a business dominated by the Mafia, Van Dyke and I were almost alone on a desert island. He spoke in poetry, and I am proud to say that I was one of the few around him who understood virtually everything he said. It is why we became friends. Both highly educated, we understood each other’s language. I was eager to introduce him to Brian, and it made his fortune.

Micha: My hero was Humphrey Bogart, a famous expectorator of insults. It’s in my DNA. Can you handle it? As for the Sixties, it has been said that if you remember it, you weren’t there. The ‘comfy chair’ and the lines quoted are from a sketch by Monty Python. If you don’t know who Monty Python is, you are truly a mindless prick. Don’t faint, just kidding…

Wild-Honey: I’m not sure I understand what you mean about being first to like a band. Can you elaborate? It sounds like a question I would like to answer.  As to the second: “Anyway,  Lorren,  maybe  Marilyn was just scared to death of drugs, rather than trying to hold him back? Maybe she also didn't fit in with the crowd and felt intimidated?” Yes, all of that is true, and I don’t fault her for that. What I object to is that she was his wife, his life’s companion. If she wasn’t up to it, why did she marry him and take on the responsibility (a true and heavy burden at the time) of covering for him, for supporting him, for backing him up in difficult situations, to act as if she truly loved him instead of being completely obsessed with herself and her own needs? It is unforgivable, and I won’t give her an inch. If you can’t handle the job, Marilyn, get out and let him find someone like Melinda who can…

Lorren Daro

Thank you for the mindful reading of our posts and the calm response.


Actually "THE COMFY CHAIR??!? :o :o :o :o" is Terry Gilliam's response line (wiggling his eyes like those smileys) to Michael Palin's line "Cardinal Fang, fetch the Comfy Chair!" This was one of the first sketches from the Monty Python's Flying Circus TV series I ever saw, and thanks a lot to Terry Jones for buying the orignal tapes from the BBC who would have erased them hadn't he bought them. Seems like I know a lot more about Monty Python than you do, Mr. Daro. Still thanks to you for sharing your perspective of the mid-1960s events in Brian's life.

Thank you, Lorren, for taking the time to answer my question and so many others. Even, it might be pointed out, those from your detractors.

If anyone still doubts that you are who you say you are, I don't think there's much that can be done at this point.

I love the thought of you and VDP (I assume that's who you meant) arriving at Brian's front door, him opening it in foam ears and feet and then, awkwardly, nobody mentioning it. Priceless, and worth the price of admission alone!

I think there's more than enough here to keep us going for a while.

There's been suggestions by AGD on the board that I have some sort of vested interest in clearing your name. Far from it. Just disagreed with the tone and basis of the insults hurled your way since Beautiful Dreamer was released. Rather than pollute this thread further I will happily discuss that in the sandbox with anyone who suspects the same.

Yeah, that was a great post Lorren.  I really enjoyed it.  Though I will point out, you'll find quite a few of us here that adore the works of VDP - with Brian or otherwise.  Anyway, thanks for taking the time to share with us.  I'm looking forward to reading more.

Wild-Honey: I’m not sure I understand what you mean about being first to like a band. Can you elaborate? It sound like a question I would like to answer.  As to the second: “Anyway,  Lorren,  maybe  Marilyn was just scared to death of drugs, rather than trying to hold him back? Maybe she also didn't fit in with the crowd and felt intimidated?” Yes, all of that is true, and I don’t fault her for that. What I object to is that she was his wife, his life’s companion. If she wasn’t up to it, why did she marry him and take on the responsibility (a true and heavy burden at the time) of covering for him, for supporting him, for backing him up in difficult situations, to act as if she truly loved him instead of being completely obsessed with herself and her own needs? It is unforgivable, and I won’t give her an inch. If you can’t handle the job, get out and let him find someone like Melinda who can…

Lorren Daro


Thanks for your reply :)   And thanks for describing your life and yourself, you seem like an interesting person who's had a very interesting life, lucky you!   My first post was a cheeky reply to Mikie (about the band etc) .   I could argue a little bit with the supportive marriage bit (two way st etc), and I do think she was way too young to even comprehend what she was getting in to, but I get you are firm in your beliefs and you may be right for all we know :)  Thanks again for taking the time and effort to reply.  

To Buddhahat:   I'm surprised at you. It was Brian and myself that showed up at Phil Spector's door. Spector was wearing the foam ears and feet. Thanks again for your support, and the check is in the mail...  LD

I find this all a little unsettling and have no idea why we are all so fixated with the past. The present is so exciting and for me far more rewarding as a "fan". I am more referring to the personal stuff.

Those are a lot of answers! Thank you
I think I understand now. Your saying that you left late 60's then came back for a visit around 76 when the Landy scene started.

MrRobinsonsFather:  If it was 1976 that Landy showed up, then I'm really wrong about the timeline. I wish my memory was more specific. Yes, I left Brian in 1966. Since I was gone, I am very hazy about what happened later. The news was all second hand. Sorry. Maybe you can write out a clear timeline for me that would help jog my memory. I seem to remember the days events, but not the calendar...

Aah - I misunderstood your reply. Phil Spector in the foam ears and feet! No less entertaining a mental image.


 8)

I find the personal aspect the most interesting..  I like knowing what inspires someone to do something, or not do something.  Though, I remember reading Heroes and Villains and the David Mark's book and wincing at descriptions of Carl's. early um, "encounters"  I don't actually like reading or want to know that kind of thing.     I love this thread,  Lorren is describing what was happening around him and nothing really private is being told about anyone else,  mostly his opinions about people and events.   The past is interesting because it's what created the present :)

One more question from me:   Do you think Marilyn and Murry (possibly others)  were actively working with each other  in regards to  oppressing Brian's different direction with music/life? (This is kind of what I'm picking up from you??)   I understand this. Not saying I agree, but I understand (Fear does funny things to people).  Okay,  now I will leave the questions for the technical, far more informative and knowledeable SS'ers.  :)

Thanks for that great post Lorren.  Worth the wait...and what I had hoped for from outset 1.  Hopefully this will satiate our various needs here while, at the same time, it helps you to realize your goal.

Lorren Daro has contradicted so much in his short time posting...I just can't take him seriously.

If he'd have come to the board on day one sharing his side of the story in a normal, respectful way, I'd have sympathized with him and listened to him. But how many times has he contradicted his own stories so far? As well as being rude to so many here....

I think he's full of sh*t.

Say, Lorren, please tell us about Mike and why you dislike him so. Just curious.

He's made very few posts containing any substance...it's like he forgot all the interesting stuff he could have shared!! what sad, what shame  :(

Lengthy posts from someone who constantly makes me think of the phrase, `The empty vessel makes the most noise`...

Well, maybe if he hadn't had to spend so much time defending himself he could have spent more time indulging our questions. As it is, I find his answers, coupled with his essay, prove very revealing and offer an alternative and fascinating insight into that period.

You could levy your disappointment at any number of interviews with BB insiders from the golden days. How much did we really learn from The Smile Sessions book, for example, where quite a few key players were interviewed (with one notable exception)? Astonishingly little, although I'm grateful for what we got.

Maybe the simplest answer is that a lot of this was so long ago that it has already been forgotten, or that those involved just never placed the same significance on those events than we expect them to. If I was asked off the cuff about my university days (less than twenty years ago) I might be able to recall a handful of amusing or interesting anecdotes from a three year period that was one of the more exciting of my life. A little coaxing and I could probably dredge up some more. Remember Lorren would not have hung out with Brian every single day during his time with him, I'm sure. I think people have unrealistic expectations of how memory works. "You were there - tell me all about it in minute detail and make sure it's all 100% accurate!"

Mr. Daro - I appreciate your reply to my, admittedly not all that important question regarding Vega-Tables.   I do see your point somewhat, it is a pretty screwed up world, but maybe that's why taking a moment to have some just plain fun is worthwhile?  I don't know, I guess I have always looked at Vega-Tables as akin to say, Yellow Submarine by that other band  :P .   Perhaps it is also that I remember first hearing Vega-Tables as a child and, like Yellow Submarine, was a particular favorite at that time.  Sentimentality, I suppose.  What can I say?   ;)
Anyway, vegetables are good for us!   :-D

Mr. Daro, given your opinion about Smile, what were your thoughts about the Smiley Smile album when it came out?

If Lorren Daro was the band's tour manager in 1963 but never knew David, then he was TM for 12 gigs, all but two in California, from October 19th... which would account for Fred's vague recollection and for David having never heard of him. Any other scenario in 1963 is entirely impossible.

And, to paraphrase Brian's words on early October 2012, while it's nice to know I'm not a mindless prick, it sure felt like that was what I was being called. I appreciate that some here find my logic & fact based approach to such recollections, at best, annoying but without a framework that (more or less) accords with established fact, they're hard to accept. I admire that Lorren has admitted some of his recall has been inexact: there are other players in the BB game who still won't budge even when shown unequivocal documentation. They know, they were there... even when they weren't.  ;)

I'm not going to comment on this topic any more, if only because I've already said too much and sailed perilously to the rocks of tedium nor, despite what buddahhat fears, will I chime in to the BW Q&A to correct him on this topic or that. Already done that.  ;D

Interesting about your view of VDP's work with Brian, Daro. I thought the genius of the whole proceedings was the combination of Brian's simplicity with VDP's baroque stylization. Part of what makes Smile so interesting is that you go from "columnated ruins domino" to "I'm gonna be 'round my vegetables". Listening to VDP's Song Cycle, there are some absolutely BRILLIANT songs there, but I can't help but think that some moments of true levity would have taken the album up to another level of accessibility.
I think VDP even adopted some of that sensibility, as on his next album he had songs like "Four Mills Brothers",  which is a very funny song.  "Palm Desert" has some zingers, but it's darn opaque.

Of course, if VDP heard this he might think I'm a blowhard. But that's OK, as Syd Barret once sang: "And the wind, you can blow it."

Thanks for all your input and dealing with us, Lorren.

Paul J B: Hey, Paul, did you ever meet ML? If you had you would sing a different tune. Of course, he did his work. Why not? It made him a fortune. His resentment of Brian and his toxic jealousy of him created a poisonous stew. Did you know that ML hired a virtual army of lawyers who pursued Brian for years demanding royalties for songs he never contributed to? It made Brian sick. I saw the pain and sorrow it caused him. And I think it contributed strongly to his drift into hard drugs and mental illness. So many people hate ML. Do you think we’re all crazy?



Thanks for the reply. Most people that "hate" Mike Love are misguided followers that have never met him either. I have met Brian twice and I sure don't claim to know him. Anyone that follows the Beach Boys closely is well aware that Mike sued over song royalties. Has it not been documented that Mike indeed wrote many lyrics for Beach Boys classics that he had not received compensation for back in the day? That did not happen when you were "hanging'" with Brian or when Brian withdrew and stopped producing hits for the Band and instead spent a great deal of time doing drugs.

In short yes, I think most people that hate Mike Love are crazy. Most people that hate Murry Wilson are crazy. I find it ridiculous that a minority of Beach Boys fans who claim to love Brian, (a man that uses love and mercy as his slogan) and grew up in the supposed generation of love, find joy in hating a man they too have never met.

I would agree that part of  the brilliance of Smile lies in that delicate counterpoint between high art and dumb whimsy, although I don't believe for a minute that Brian purely handled the simplistic part (not directed at you Mr Cohen). Lyrics aside, his music for Smile explores the counterpoint between complexity and simplicity with nursery-rhyme style melodies such as as Barnyard and the Bach-like complexity of Wonderful. I think Anderle was bang-on when he described Smile as Brian's 'cubist period' as it explores the same territory imo.

Well, I just want to say right here that............I think you're a cute little booger.  ;)

Mikie, the original silver-tongued charmer.  ;D

Thank you Lorren for your time. I really like reading your posts. I have two questions. What were the books, movies, music that fueled creatively Brian while you were in the picture with him. Also, could you describe a typical evening with him during and/or special anecdotes. Best regards, J.F.

Thanks for sharing your insights and perspectives, Lorren.  You self description (above) helps one to understand why Brian found you an intriguing guy to hang out with.

My next question - What was a typical evening like at your "pad" circa 1964-66 with various people such as Asher, Parks, and Wilson in attendance?  Music?  Food?  Drink?  Topics of conversation?  Various illegal (e.g., marijuana) and legal (e.g., LSD prior to 10-66 in California) drugs?

Edit:  Just noticed my question is similar to part of Smiler21's above.

Wild-Honey:  Oh, yes, cute one. Murry and Marilyn and Mike – the three M’s, as in murderous mf’ers, were the troika of villains in Brian’s life. And, they won the trifecta, bringing him down like a giant sequoia. My mission is to expose them.

Buddhahat: You score for me once again!

SenorPotatoHead: Yes, sentimentality. As opposed to sentiment. Two very different things.  Isaiah Berlin once wrote that sentimentality is the cause of all the violence in the world.

Fire Wind: Listened to it once. Didn’t like it.

AGD: Will you please get over the ‘mindless prick’ business. You’re beginning to sound insecure. I didn’t mean you. You know whom I meant. What will you do when someone calls you an asshole? Will you faint dead away? I quit GAC in June of 1963. Brian brought me on for one short tour in the winter of that year. It was not twelve dates, but just a few. We flew to New York and did gigs in New England, none in NYC. That was the one and only TM job I did. We were home before Christmas as I recall. For God’s sake, AGD, this was fifty years ago…

Mr. Cohen: What a breath of fresh air! Yes, that’s it exactly. It worked well with ‘Surf’s Up’ and ‘Heroes and Villains’, but not with ‘Smile’, or much of the other stuff they did together. Also, spot on with the ‘Song Cycle’ comment. I feel exactly the same way about it. I think it’s why that album never broke through. Another thing, several of my musician friends have commented that VDP’s sense of melody is deficient. They think that contributed to the problem, as well. VDP;s genius is with words, after all. Also, am I wrong that they collaborated on ‘Sail On Sailor’, too? Can you inform me about that?

Paul J B: Crazy to hate MURRY!!! Where the f* is your head? A more brutal, narcissistic, insane psychopath is difficult to imagine. Please leave me alone.

Smiler 21 and Custom Machine: So much to think about with this. At my ‘salon’, it was only marijuana – coke didn’t show up until the early eighties and ruined the whole scene. No alcohol. Normal snacks. No discussion themes, but everyone talking with each other in their own conversations. Yes, Asher, VDP, Brian, David Crosby, Roger McGuinn, Steve Stills, various film actors/actresses, ad agency creatives, Jack Nicholson once, Peter Fonda (with Crosby) twice. Dennis Hopper once. So many I can’t remember it all…  With Brian, the most influential subject was metaphysics. I began with easy books: Gibran, Krishnamurti, Gina Cerminara’s bio of Edgar Cayce, Alan Watts on Zen. Then came a lot of talk about those ideas and going deeper along the way. Brian lapped it up like ambrosia. I helped him apply those ideas of universal love, logic and justice to his frustrations and a lot of it worked for him. He began to see things in a larger way. It calmed him down and created a base for thinking in a philosophical way. I saw the results in his songs later on. Note: A fellow named Larry Geller, whom I knew and liked, did the same thing for Elvis Presley.

One More Thing: I’m not going to get specifically into my opinions about Mike Love. If I wrote down what I really feel about him, he’d have his lawyers on me like a pack of wolves. There is enough on the record elsewhere about his actions and character. Too many SS members are ML partisans to confront them here. I will say that the grief ML has given Brian over these many years created the most injury he has had to sustain.

Lorren Daro

Again thanks for all the posts Lorren and yes its a bitch getting old.  I do have one question.  During that short period where you were the tour manager,  how was your perception of Al Jardine within the context of the group in the 63-66/67 timeframe.  Obviously at the early part of BB history, he was in  then out  then back in, which is probably why Marks has no idea who you are.  Could you sense back then that Al was an outsider (not family) and not a relevant member of the group and maybe not taken seriously.  Like when the group came back for their voices on the PS tracks.  Curious what Al was like during those sessions ?

Barsone:  Yes, I've been waiting for this question: I loved Al Jardine. He was the sweetest of them all. I could talk straight to him and get straight answers. He was always on the outside of the group, but made superb contributions to their music. Carl and Dennis, after all, were not terribly bright. ML easily ruled them. My impression is that Al went along, but had barriers that ML wouldn’t cross. He had integrity and a clear sense of himself and his talent. I spent more time with him than any of the band, excluding, of course, Brian. Thanks for asking…

Lorren Daro

Been called that, and far worse, on here and other fora over the years.  ;D


Ian Rusten (concert historian without peer) has no fall New England shows documented - if you could recall just the towns, he'd have something to work on. This is what he's got thus far:

October   
11 - Timers session: No-Go Showboat (RCA - BW bvs)
18 - session: Bobby Left Me/Little St. Nick/Drive-In [Western]
19 - Y-Day Concert, Hollywood Bowl, Hollywood CA
        [w/The Routers, Mike Clifford, The Cornells, Paul Petersen, Soupy Sales,
        The Mixtures, Keith Colley, Eddie & The Showmen, Dodie Stevens, The
        Fleetwoods, Vic Dana, Duane Eddy, The Honeys, The Challengers,
        Jan & Dean, The Surfaris & Bobby Rydell]
20 - single session: Little St. Nick/The Lord's Prayer (vocals) [Western]
?? - Jan & Dean session: Drag City vocals (BW)
?? - Jan & Dean session: Little Deuce Coupe
23 - Santa Maria HS Gym, Santa Maria CA* [w/Jan and Dean and the Honeys]
31 - Loyola University, Loyola CA [2 shows]
?? - Jan & Dean session: Drag City

November
  6 - session: I Do [RCA]
14 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve 
15 - Wallich's Music City grand opening, South Bay Center, Los Angeles CA*
        [w/host Bob Crane, Jan and Dean, Dodie Stevens, The Lennon  Sisters, Dick Dale,
        Wayne Newton, Rose Marie, Jack Jones, Tim Morgan, Gene McDaniels,  The
        Righteous Brothers, The Surfaris, The Ventures and Kay Starr]
16 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
17 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
22 - Dick Clark's American Bandstand Celebrity Party ABC TV [w/Frankie Avalon,
        Annette, Jan & Dean, Dick Dale, Wayne Newton, Dick & Dee Dee, Trini
        Lopez, Johnny Mathis, Connie Francis, The Challengers & Donna Loren]
22 - Memorial Auditorium,  Marysville CA [w/Freddy & The Statics]
23 - Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento CA [cancelled]
29 - National Guard Armory, Indio CA*
30 - Channel 18 Saturday Night Bandstand Dance, Municipal Auditorium, San Bernadino
       CA [w/The Torquays, The Astronauts and The Dave Pell Octet]
13 - Sharon Marie session: The Story Of My Life/Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby [Western]
20 - Civic Auditorium, Stockton CA
21 - Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento CA* [recorded for Beach Boys Concert]
27 - The Terrace, Salt Lake City UT*
28 - The Terrace, Salt Lake City UT*
31 - Cinnamon Cinder, San Bernardino CA*

"SenorPotatoHead: Yes, sentimentality. As opposed to sentiment. Two very different things.  Isaiah Berlin once wrote that sentimentality is the cause of all the violence in the world."

Right.  Now that you mention it, I have witnessed a particularly large amount of hostility in the produce section of the market.    
  

On the other hand, Andrew (who recused himself from this thread previously, I might note...) it's possible that:

1--these are dates not documented for some reason (Ian notes this phenomenon in his book);
2--Lorren's memory may be playing enough tricks on him that the dates he's remembering are actually from fall 1964 (Rochester NY, New Haven CT, Cleveland OH, Detroit MI, Cincinnati OH).

Lorren--I hope someone interviews you on camera in a more free-form; it's clear from your writing style that in the right setting you'd be very articulate (and opinionated!!) on camera. I hope to ask a few questions a bit later on, hope everyone will continue in the spirit that has (mostly) coalesced.

And kudos to Guitarfool for most appropriately moving this thread over the the "Honored Guests" section.

Lorren...thanks for your previous response.  2 questions this time...

1.  At any time leading up to completion of 'Pet Sounds' did Brian wonder out loud whether or not he might make it a solo project?
2.  With the inner mental image of HOW he wanted his music to sound on record...was Brian disappointed that THAT sound could not be replicated live on stage?

Both very fair points. Ian admits that there are still gigs missing - principally in 1962 - but a whole new 1963 tour would be some find. As for it being 1964...  Lorren says shows in New England, not the midwest, and specifically says no shows in NYC. Business as usual in the BB world. I'm sure Ian is on this as we speak.  ;D

Lorren, I was wondering if you could comment a bit on the Pet Sounds sessions.  What was the mood like at the time?  Was there a vibe that something very special was happening or was it seen as just another album?  Also, did you get the sense that the band was resistant to the material or did that only come later?  Any thoughts you'd like to share would be interesting...  Thanks!

Don Malcolm: Oddly enough, David Leaf recorded the interview with me for almost two hours, of which he used about ten minutes. Much of what I’ve written here was said before on during those two hours. David sent me a copy.

AGD: As I remember it, and as I said, this was in cold December, not November. Thinking it over, it might have been 1964. Same month. So much of this is lost to me because, high most of the time, I never kept track of dates and years. I was in Chicago with Lynda when Kennedy was killed in 1963, another reason why it must have been 1964. I don’t know why this matters, but I hope it does. Leave it to Don Malcolm to come through again…

Add Some: I am quite sure that Brian never intended ‘Pet Sounds’ to be a solo project. His ideas for the vocals were there from the beginning. He wasn’t ready to walk away from the Boys. Also, I don’t think he cared about presenting the album onstage. This was a studio album with the Wrecking Crew and was meant to be just that. That’s why ML hated it. He thought the golden eggs from his golden goose were gone forever…

 Avon Todd: ‘Pet Sounds’ was certainly something special for Brian. It was his big departure from the old ways. The Wrecking Crew was absolutely in awe of Brian, and many said it was one of the high moments of their careers. I can’t say for sure, but I believe that the Boys weren’t fully aware of what he was doing. ML, or any of the others were not at the sessions, at least I never saw them there, and I was there for almost all of them. (Vosse was there, too. You can ask him about this). I believe he told them that they would put vocals on the tracks when he was done. Murry was there for one or two and tried to bully Brian as best he could. Brian eventually asked him to leave the studio and not come back.  

One remarkable moment was when Brian went into the studio to consult with one of those incredible musicians and I was in the booth with Murry and some Capitol executives. Here’s what I heard him say: “Brian isn’t the real talent in the family, I am. I write much better songs than he does. He can’t hear stereo. He’s deaf in one ear, you know. I taught him everything he knows. If it wasn’t for me, he’d be nothing.” Murry, as Brian told me, had hit him in the side of his head with a 2X4 when he was a boy. That’s what caused his deafness.

An added note: I’m sure you all know this, but I’ll say it anyway. Dennis stopped playing the drums on the records very early on. Brian would have a session with him and never use it. Brian usually sang each of the vocal parts into the earphones of all of them but ML and, I think, Al Jardine during recordings. Many of the tracks include almost all Brian’s vocals and very few of the Boys.

Lorren Daro

Hi Lorren,

When you say you were there for the entire Pet Sounds sessions, did you mean the sessions for Pet sounds the album or Pet Sounds the song?

Do you have any other recollections about specific Pet Sounds songs - God Only Knows for example?

Did you witness Brian and tony Asher collaborating at any point?

Finally, did Brian ever play you any of his compositions at the piano?

As ever, thanks for your patience with all these questions.

Lorren, you're new here - here's why it matters, to me and several other fact-geeks here. The incomparable music of Brian Wilson & The Beach Boys has given me immeasurable pleasure over the years, has materially altered the course of my life and gotten me places I would never have otherwise gone. Yet they command far less respect than they should and there are so, so many misapprehensions about them and their music. Everyone knows they never played on their hits of the 60s. It's a Quixotic quest, but I want their history accurately documented and to this end, I'm doing the best I can: others are doing far better. Win a few, loose a few. Does any given recollection have to be "right" ? Would be nice, but that it fits into the accepted framework of known, documented dates helps a lot (although those very dates can be open to question and have, in the past, crumbled on closer scrutiny). I've made some appalling errors of fact and deduction, some enshrined in print. That's why it matters. Because the music deserves nothing less. That's why I sometimes seize upon an erroneous recollection - by anyone, Brian included - and worry the living bejeezus out of it.

Vosse has passed away.

Audree said it was congenital, a damaged 9th nerve and that they noticed it when Brian was very young, under two. You're suggesting Murry hit a toddler around the head with a 2x4 ? Brian told you that ? He's also said it was a kid down the block. Brian said he burned the "Fire" tapes. Brian denied there was going to be any reunion in 2012. You see my point.


No, we don't know this... because it's not true. See my previous post. You're propagating a long-discredited canard, discredited by not only the session contracts but also by the session tapes. I think David Leaf claimed Brian went through agonies about how to tell Dennis he wasn't drumming on "Little Deuce Coupe". Touching story, unfortunately entirely untrue. Far better people than I have researched this topic and, for example, the complex drum pattern on "When I Grow UP..." ? That's Dennis. Lorren, this is the single thing that adhering to will seriously damage your credibility here, because it's simply demonstrably not true. And this is an instance when being right does matter.

Great Lorren.  Thanks again.  I asked about Brian keeping Pet Sounds as a solo venture I guess because of his possibly anticipating negative reactions from some of the guys and also because he did such a fine job doing all of the vocals on his own...but you futher explained that with your response to Avon Todd.

Brian was never one for being 'on camera was he?  I know I react badly when it happens infrequently to me.  I'm remembering the bit he did with the Boys, Bob Hope and Jack Benny.  Uncomfortable.  [and then some]  Any stories there?

You've mentioned a few times that Capitol didn't like Smile and wouldn't release it...YET...they accepted Smiley Smile?  How the heck would they think that Smile was anywhere near as 'ODD' as the replacement record?  Smiley Smile is the one that's way off base isn't it?  I thought, according to David Anderle [and Paul Williams was it?], that Capitol was freaking out because Brian couldn't meet any of the passing deadlines with the completed Smile album and that they were entirely pissed of that there was nothing to release.   Smiley Smile was like a WTF last minute replacement  I don't think Smile ever got close to completion until Brian sat down and, with some assistance, mapped out a Smile finish line about 12 years ago...???

It's surely one of the bigger WTF ? moments in BB history, and lord knows, there are enough of those, but bear in mind that Capitol didn't actually release Smiley Smile, rather they distributed it for the bands Brother label. That said, they sure as hell funded several months worth of Smile sessions, so I'm guessing they were looking to recoup something, anything. That or someone spiked their coffee. Oh to have been in the tower the first time they heard it...

Thanks for your recollections about Al. What was Bruce like, Lorren?

That made me laugh, out loud :)   (adopting it)

AGD: I’m beginning to understand what’s going on here. It seems that I’m as much of a victim of bad rumors as anyone else. I lot of what I’ve said was from Brian’s mouth – the 2X4 deafness, Dennis’s drumming, the journey of the ‘Smile’ records, etc. And, no, AGD I’m not going to cling to these ‘facts’. I’m here to learn, as well as to relate what I think I know. My distant memories are suspect. I see that now. Good thing you’re here to keep me on the path. I didn’t think I would run into all this scientific analysis…

Buddhahat: I was at the instrumental sessions, never the vocals. No specific info about ‘God Only Knows.’ I watched Brian and Tony work at the grand piano at the Laurel Way house a couple of times. Boring to watch, actually. Brian played stuff for me all the time. Every time I was at the house, he’d sit down and play fragments of songs and asked what I thought. It was hard to have opinions because they hadn’t taken form yet.

Notice how all this is slowing down? I’m not the new novelty any more. It’s okay. Glad to have had this experience. Some very fine people here…

Well, there's the "Holidays" session Dennis drummed on, and Brian never used it. :angel:

Is there another meaning of "booger" that I'm not aware of? :)

Well, yes, "cute" (leaving the other part for others to contemplate...) is actually an understatement when it comes to Wild-Honey...I think we are all happy to have her back from a bit of a hiatus here, and not just because of her looks, either.

As for the Wrecking Crew/Dennis issue that Prosecutor Doe has referenced, I think that (again) there may be a plausible explanation for all that. Please take into account that during the major portion of the time Lorren was intensively involved with Brian, particularly 1965 and 1966, it was indeed the time frame when the Wrecking Crew became the primary "studio instrument" for Brian (and, of course, that means Hal Blaine).

Also consider that it's very possible that Brian felt several ways about this changeover, and, being an emotional guy, may well have expressed several differing points of view about it to confidantes at that time. Very likely he could have felt guilty about it, while also justifying the change as necessary because of the evolution his songs were undergoing, particularly in late 1964 through Pet Sounds. I think we can see how that would have been a matter of concern, and a topic of conversation.

The context of the times and the context of the friendship are two things that need to be taken into consideration when digesting and evaluating these reminiscences. I must admit to being a bit taken aback by Lorren's note that Dennis and Carl weren't all that bright---but I stopped to think about the 1964-66 period and remembered just how young they were then--Dennis was 19-21, Carl 17-19. Lorren would have been around 26-28 at this time, and personally I cannot think of a time in life (17-27) that makes more difference in terms of becoming aware of the world and harnessing one's mind and talents in response. It wouldn't be until 1968 for Dennis to write songs, though we can see him becoming more interested in the piano in the photos in Bill Yerkes' great volume about the '66 tours. Carl would soon evolve into the band's musical leader, but there were only inkling of that in this time frame and it makes sense (to me at least) that these signals simply may not have sufficiently manifested themselves.

Remember that Lorren's world was the one thet Brian went to in order for a respite from the Beach Boys, as he sought other forms of life experience. While some (not D.A. Doe!!)  have the urge to disparage some of those activities (cough-DRUGS-cough), this was the zeitgeist and it's clear that no one was going to keep Brian Wilson down on the farm (you can complete the rest of lyric on your own...)

It's possible that Brian actually magnified his fears about the band's ability to cope with the changes. But that there was a jealous, possessive cast to this tug of war is clearly the case (documented dozens of times over by just about everyone who's written about the band), and the push-pull there was nothing more or less than a maelstrom. I can think of no better illustration of that than in the great photo back in the "official" photo thread (I hope someone with skills at reposting it will do so here; I'm afraid it's beyond my skill set at this point...) where Brian and Mike are on either side of Phil Spector at one of his sessions. One only needs to look at the expression on Mike's face to grasp the "territorial" undercurrents swirling around at the time. And if you think about it, it makes perfect sense--many vested interests, many competing impulses. That is what happens when one is at the center of the "frenzy of renown."

Thanks Don,  that made me beam with happiness. I've had a tough time lately and I'm happy to be back here too :)

AGD: As I'm just about to slip into bed, it occurred to me that Audree had plenty of reason to lie about the deafness issue. If she blamed Murry for it, he would have hit the ceiling. Audree was classically passive, and we all know how dangerous Murry was. If what Brian told me was not true, why would he lie to me? What would be the advantage to him? He trusted me. I was the last person he would lie to. Our relationship was built on truth-telling. The whole point is that he could tell me things that he couldn't tell anyone else around him. He was isolated...

They collaborated on "Sail On Sailor". Other people here are probably better with the details on that.

As for VDP's melodic sense, I'd say he composes as he talks. Dense and breezily overflowing with ideas. I like it, but it's not like what you hear on pop radio.

I don't know about anyone else, but I wanted to wait until it got a little less intense so you wouldn't feel so overwhelmed!

I'd like to hear about your experiences with Danny Hutton. He seems like a sincere and interesting guy.

Yes we are!  Looking forward to many more posts from her in the future.

Hi Lorren,

Based on my reading of the above and another post, I think you may not realize that "Surf's Up" and "Heroes and Villains" were both part of Smile. I point this out only to reemphasize to the group that it still seems we're expecting you to have a command of the kind of facts that come so naturally to us, but that are less meaningful from your perspective.

"Sail on Sailor" was worked on by Brian and Van Dyke a number of years after their Smile collaboration. Recent evidence that I've seen relayed here suggests that the kernel of the idea for that song was much more Van Dyke's than Brian's. Later the song was worked on by several other writers, with the final product being a true example of a song written by committee.

I, for one, am really enjoying these posts and our interactions with you.

If you want a good timeline of B. Boys/Brian activities that might jog your memory, I suggest you visit Andrew Doe's gigs and sessions timeline (with much of the background research done by Ian Rusten and Craig Slowinski, both members of this site, among other people Andrew names on the landing page) at http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs.html

Nothing any of us could reconstruct for you here could possibly compare.

Lorren, thanks for all the interesting posts.   Can you please name some songs in which you see this direct metaphysical influence?

It doesn't really mean booger Micha.  It's like calling someone a 'good sh!t'...or an 'old fart'...or a 'little booger'...the 'word' loses it's  usual meaning and it becomes 'cute'.  Probably better not to experiment with THESE though.  Sometimes it works.  Sometimes it doesn't.  And it depends WHO it is saying 'it' to which whomever.

Then there's the word "bugger" which has a whole other meaning.

Lorren, you awake yet?  :)

Hope he is.  In bemoaning the fact that the torrent of questions has died down...Lorren missed my last 2.  Back by AGD's posts on the previous page Lorren.  You aren't 'old news' by the way.  The place quiets down on the weekend.  So anyway...while I'm here...a 3rd question to go with the one about Bob Hope/Jack Benny and the other about Smile/Smiley Smile...

....In the group of artistically inclined folks who congregated...did they give Brian the respect he was due...or did they do that thing that the self-proclaimed 'special' people do and pretty much just USE him 'til he was no longer 'amusing'?

Hi Lorren,

Thanks for answering another of my questions.

The slowdown is probably a combination of factors - often I notice less traffic here at the weekend but also the thread has cooled down emotionally a bit which is no bad thing imo. I sense those of us who are here are really valuing your contributions, candour and humility in admitting the difficulties in recalling this stuff 50 yrs later. I hope you stick about for a bit longer.

It's ironic to hear that you found it boring watching Tony and a Brian at work at the piano, creating Pet Sounds! I could practically hear the collective jaw of the message board hitting the floor as I read that. I think for many here that period of creativity is charged with a sort of mystical aura but it seems fitting that you are so matter of fact about it. If only somebody had recorded their writing sessions though! As far as I'm aware there's only one recording of Brian demoing a Pet Sounds song - A solo piano version of Don't Talk that appears on the Pet Sounds sessions. It is stunning though.

I have been driving around today with a mental picture of your and Brian's encounter with a foam-eared Phil Spector. Can you remember any other details of that night? What had brought you there - was he a friend of yours, perhaps? Was it just you and Brian or were there others there? We know Brian was in awe of Spector. Did he ask Phil about his work or was he pretty tongue-tied around him? Spector was obviously a huge influence on Brian. Do you remember any resentment from Spector towards Brian, or a sense that he was threatened by this young pretender?!

Best,

Buddhahat

No way Budd.  Not a chance.  The floor?  The desk stopped my jaw cold. ;)

I found his comment to be about right. Watching people write songs is, indeed, boring. It's work, not entertainment.

Indeed, I can imagine this. That jean luc Godard film of the stones recording sympathy for the devil is periodically fascinating and tedious if memory serves ...

 ;D

Les P: For me, the metaphysical influences began with ‘Pet Sounds’ It was a different style of songwriting. The rocknroll was virtually gone and much deeper issues were being dealt with. This continued with the ever more obscure and non-commercial content of the songs he wrote with VDP. I’m reminded of the career of Herman Melville: He began by writing pure adventure stories that became, little by little, spiritual ones. ‘Moby Dick’ was the perfect blending of the two. The books after that were more and more spiritual, and sales fell off until he wasn’t read at all. Something like this has happened to Brian.

Add Some: Good question: Almost everyone around him, except ML, were in utter awe of Brian. They knew what he was – some kind of musical genius – but appearing in the form of a (don’t go crazy now) simple-minded teenager – kind of like Mozart (another idiot-savant with a stern father).  Brian was never comfortable on television or with celebrities, not even in my living room. Brian’s gifts, which are stunning to us, was just his normal state of being – nothing special, just what he does. Never once did I see evidence of a ‘big head’ on Brian’s shoulders, in fact, he was completely self-effacing.

Buddhahat: “I have been driving around today with a mental picture of your and Brian's encounter with a foam-eared Phil Spector. Can you remember any other details of that night? What had brought you there - was he a friend of yours, perhaps? Was it just you and Brian or were there others there? We know Brian was in awe of Spector. Did he ask Phil about his work or was he pretty tongue-tied around him? Spector was obviously a huge influence on Brian. Do you remember any resentment from Spector towards Brian, or a sense that he was threatened by this young pretender?!”

I didn’t arrange the meeting. Brian had talked to him on the phone and he invited him over. It was just Brian and myself. I think he wanted moral support. Brian was tongue-tied. No real conversation. Spector didn’t know what to make of him. No resentment, no threats. It was Phil Spector, for crissakes. He wasn’t threatened by anything.

Note to All: You may not like what I’m going to say here, but I owe both you and myself the truth as I see it, feel it, believe it. Many of you are asking me the wrong questions. Maybe this will help:

I loved the Beach Boy’s records, but I was not a fan-boy. I didn’t keep track of all the details of their lives and careers, or even the music. I lived in a different social and educational environment. I grew up in Beverly Hills, I graduated from UCLA with a degree in English Literature and worked on a Master’s for a year before I joined MCA as a Junior Agent in 1960. At GAC in early 1963, I founded their first rock department because they asked me to. I was a Beatnik, jazz-loving, Lenny Bruce-loving hipster and an over-educated quasi-intellectual. That’s why me and VDP hit if off immediately.

I say all this because, in light of it, maybe you can understand that I wasn’t interested in a bunch of lower middle class teenagers from the LA suburbs. I was interested in an orchid amongst the dandelions – Brian. I immediately sensed, as many did, that this was a very special person who needed to know more about the world, about what great writers were saying, and about himself. I was a mentor, advisor and protector, not a playmate or pal.

As soon as I got to know him, I realized what he was up against with the troika of Murry, ML and Marilyn. I saw his complete inability to confront them. I saw that I could help him do that, as much for posterity as for myself. I faced off all three of them, which drove them nuts. I built a kind of mental fence around him. I showed him how they were using him, abusing him, exploiting him for their own purposes. Murry wanted to feed off  his fame. Marilyn wanted to mold him into the kind of man she was taught to want growing up in an old-fashioned Jewish household. ML wanted fame, money, chicks and power, and to tell everybody else to f*** off.

I didn’t perceive Brian’s social or musical environment they way you all are doing. I wasn’t collecting minutiae, I was doing social work and therapy. I wanted to give him the balls to stick up for himself and to understand the magnitude of his talent. After the LSD, he began to see things in a different way, and the troika didn’t like it at all. They saw the changes as all my fault, and I became the villain. But, I will tell you here: I don’t give a sh*t what they, or anyone else, thinks or thought. I’m not a fool. I knew what I was doing. Aside from a coat and a nail clipper, I never took a thing from Brian. It was my contribution to the world that I bring it a strong, fully self-aware, enlightened artist. I only got partway there, but it was enough for him to get rid of Murry, to divorce Marilyn, to stop taking sh*t from ML and to find his own artistic path, beyond all the commercial expectations of everyone around him. I helped him do that, and I’m proud of it.

Fascinating to get your perspective Lorren, especially as your strong feelings towards the characters involved make the telling feel very much alive for me.

I have read about the tensions that existed and the pressures Brian was under at this time but usually through the writings of a detached third party. It's a different thing entirely to hear a personal, emotional account such as yours.

Unfortunately I have to turn in now but thanks again for taking the trouble to answer all my questions.

Lorren, can't you expand on the Mike Love angle from where you were sitting? Are you really afraid he's going to set his legal dogs on you over a thread on Smiley Smile? He's have to sue hundreds of people online if so. Curious about the song credits thing...

Any incident with Mike Love that sticks out after all these years and captures his essence? A bit sulphurous, a bit sweaty: essence of Love. Ask for it by name at fine stores.

Lorren, do you have any picture of Brian during that era. Any pics of the famous sandbox?

Hi Lorren,

Random questions:

1. How obvious were Marylin, Murry and Mike in their desire to control Brian?

2. Was it to his face, or behind his back?

3. What methods did each of them use, and was it coordinated in any way?

4. How long after you befriended Brian did you point these things out to him?

5. Did he already seem aware of some of this, and what was his initial reaction to you telling him these things?

Lorren,

You noted earlier that Brian needed help conveying his thoughts into lyrics, but did he need help coming up with melodies, instrumental arrangements or vocal arrangements?

Thanks, and sorry if this question has already been asked.

Lorren,

Can you find this thread now that it's been moved?

That's a very sad picture.  As his mentor of sorts, did you try to tell him what you saw happening to him?   Was he at all aware that he was falling apart, or was he too caught up in it to realize there was a problem?

Buddhahat:  Thank you, as usual, my defender…

Ontor pertwast:  With his money, anger and insecurity, ML wouldn’t hesitate to sue whomever he felt insulted him. If I name incidents, I open myself to legal action. Don’t all of you know who and what he is by now? Essence of Mike Love? Try Zyklon B.

Smiler21: I have a few proof sheets from that era. I showed them to David Leaf. He didn’t find them usable, and he was right. I didn't want to seem like a fan snapping pictures. I have no shots of the piano, but I’ve seen some…

Tricycle Rider:

1. How obvious were Marilyn, Murry and Mike in their desire to control Brian?

As obvious as a train wreck.

2. Was it to his face, or behind his back?

Both…

3. What methods did each of them use, and was it coordinated in any way?

Anger, argument, insults, derision -- all planned in advance.

4. How long after you befriended Brian did you point these things out to him?

It took about a month to perceive the lay of the land.

5. Did he already seem aware of some of this, and what was his initial reaction to you telling him these things?

He was aware of all of it. It was driving him nuts. Why were they all so disloyal? Weren’t they supposed to love and honor him? His reaction when I finally sat down with him and told him what I thought, was like a great weight lifted off his shoulders. Here is someone who understands and can probably help me. Things got better from that moment on.

Clinikillz: As far as I could tell, Brian needed no help whatsoever with any musical aspects. The lyrics were a different thing: He had ideas, but they had to be converted into rhythm, hooks and meter. Brian’s musical education came from the leader of a famous singing group, The Four Freshman. I forget his name. He taught Brian modern harmony and song construction. Without him, Brian would have been lost. He owes him everything. I met him once in the studio.

Runnersdialzero: What thread is that? I’m on ‘The Lorren Daro’ thread right now. Is there another?

Les P: See my answer to Tricycle Rider. Brian wasn’t falling apart. He was frustrated and nerve-wracked and isolated. And he was definitely aware of the problem but didn’t know how to deal with it.

Hey Lorren,

You stated - "I was interested in an orchid amongst the dandelions - Brian"

So my question is - what are your thoughts on Dennis Wilson's musical abilities / contributions to the BB's?  Have you heard his 1977 solo album "Pacific Ocean Blue"?  In my opinion, Brian wasn't the only genius in that family.

Thanks,
OHD

1, You clearly do as proven by many of your posts.

2, Yes, you really were a wonderfully positive influence.

Yes, clearly you loved Brian so very much. Are you too over educated to understand the term 'fairweather friend'?

Speaking here, not as Lorren Daro's self-appointed defender (a role that has probably outstayed its welcome for all involved) but for myself, as somebody who is enjoying the opportunity to ask him questions:

This is obviously an open forum but is it really necessary to keep butting in with this petty moralising? It's not even that clear what's being railed against from these last two posts.

Some members took offense at Lorren's intial comments and expressed their ill feeling. Fair enough. Lorren has had the decency to explain the motivation behind his more controversial comments, to take reponsibility for that which he agreed was too angry in tone, and even to temper his subsequent replies here so as not to cause unnecessary offence. He even offered a disclaimer before some of his recent answers:


I guess my point is some of us here are clearly benefitting from the chance to pick Lorren's brains. Is it too much to ask that:

1. If you really feel offended by what he has to say, you at least word it in a less petulant way?

2. Ask yourself if your contribution has any value other than attempting to derail the thread?

Thanks for explaining! :) No, I won't experiment, as English is not my first language so I'm not aware of all subtleties. I'm aware of some, I recall an incident on German TV when a show host called an American guest a "big woman", innocently meaning "tall woman", unaware of that "big" can mean "fat" in a way, causing ill feelings.



IIRC "Moby Dick" wasn't a success until after Melville's death (Coincidentally, I re-read it last year or the year before, and I can see why that was), while Brian got to witness the deserved appreciation Pet Sounds and SMiLE received. I guess we're all happy about that. :)

These explanations of what 'went down' back in 1966ish are quite revealing Darren.  In a sense it's almost NOT 'our' business yet the information helps us to see things, which are imprtant to us, more clearly.  So...we investigate.

It's difficult to react to parents as an ADULT/a peer which is what Brian needed to do to get Murry off his case and away from detracting from the work at hand.  We've learned enough to see that Murry was pretty much a bully.  Too bad no one was able to control him BEFORE he impacted so negatively on his family.  As for Marilyn...I'm sure she felt empowered to 'join in' having watched the others close to Brian 'play' him in order to try and run the show to their own advantage.  Looks, ultimately, like THAT backfired.  Brian dealt with them both...eventually.  Well...you did point out way back when you first joined us that Brian wasn't confrontational.

Perhaps in becoming somewhat moreso in that regard, thanks in part to guidance you seem to have provided, he did step up to be counted but still wasn't really all that  adept at doing it?  Yes?  No?

Anyway I'm getting to the question.  It's one thing to deal with the father figure...who clearly deserved what he got.  I think we knew that before you arrived.  It's also one thing to deal with your 'life partner' when that scenario turns out to be seen as a one-way street...but what about Mike?  He wasn't just a cousin...he was an important and key component of a very successful unit which was working to Brian's benefit in different ways.  You two must have talked about THAT?  Did Brian ever consider firing Mike?  As it was Mike's 'place' in the group began to slide from view at THAT time.  He sang a lower and lower percentage of leads.  He wrote fewer lyrics used by the group going forward and his presence on stage became less and less commanding at least until the mid 70s when suddenly everything shifted back in his direction...thanks to Endless Summer and 15 'Over Inflated' Ones.  Was there a specific effort...under the table so to speak...to put Mike in his place...or at least to move him back into the shadows?  It couldn't have been a coincidence that he sort of faded back into the 'pack'.

Hi Lorren,

Somebody has to ask:

Did you ever get a sense of Brian's competitiveness with The Beatles? In particular did you witness a sense of defeat in him when they released the Strawberry Fields Forever single, or Sgt Pepper album, in relation to his own inability to complete Smile?

You said there were Beatles records in the Jukebox at Brian's at that point. What were his (and your) favourites at the time?

Many thanks

Sorry my mistake, Landy first appeared in 1975. I was going to do a quick timeline but remembered you can go to straight to Andrew's website and find more than enough detail there :
http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/bbtimeline.html

I just thought of 2 questions

1. When you visited Brian in the mid 70's did you notice his vocal change from the previous time you had seen him. Everyone's voice changes with age but Brian had done damage to his vocal chords in just a matter of a couple of years (much like Harry Nilsson).
Could you describe that visit.

2. How many lsd trips would you say Brian took without you. There are different accounts with how many trips he took. Brian says in recent years it was only the one trip, but most accounts including his wife Melinda say it was at least more than three.


Thanks Lorren

Coca Cola or Pepsi?

And correcting someone's recall and providing an accurate framework/timeline is attempting to derail this thread... how, exactly ?

Lorren,

What about Capitol Records?

1. How did they pressure Brian, and was he the only one they hounded?

2. Did they ever show up at the studio and hassle him while he was trying to record?

3. Did you ever see, or did Brian ever say, that he was encountering trouble at the studio(s) in regards to him "touching" the consoles/studio equipment? (you know, Union Rules and all that)

4. Are you aware of any hassles Brian encountered with them regarding "Singles" releases?

Thanks, Royce :)

Lorren - I don't believe this has been asked yet, but have you any information regarding the handwritten list (which has been determined not be in Brian's handwriting, but possibly Carl's or Diane Rovell's) of tracks which was used to create the (temporary?) back cover of the Smile album?   It would have been written (as far as I know) sometime around December of 1966.  There has been a lot of controversy over this list for a long time.    
Thanks.

It obviously wasn't clear but the post you quoted was directed towards the two posts previous to it. Not yours.

buddhahat, you have played a fundamental role in bringing Daro back, or keeping him here. You have pacified what seemed a derailed thread. For that, I must thank you. I'm sure most people here -Lorren Daro included- share my thoughts. Nevertheless, your baroque and relentless praising (cheering?) for him, and your generaly unnecessary defense, is dangeroulsy starting to resemble this:


(https://studrunningback.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/spike-and-chester.jpg?w=640)


I'm affraid you are becoming Daro's Chester. Please, do not.

This just struck me as a nifty name for a band  :lol 

If you're going to insult me, at least spare me the condescending preamble but ...



point taken  :shrug

I don't think that was intended as condescention. I think he was just saying, you stuck up for Daro when no one else would and helped bring him back, which is good. But now you're being overly protective of him (while calling out others for being too protective of Brian) and its kinda off-putting. There's such thing as healthy criticism and fact-checking, so just relax. Daro's a big boy and can defend himself.

That is incorrect. If you look back on the thread, you'll see quite a few of us that "stuck up for Daro" and wanted him to come back. It was the right thing to do.

Yeah, it is nice he came back, whether you believe him or not.

I guess a better way to phrase it is buddhahat took up the cause more passionately than anyone else. Which is nice, but it's kinda weird and unnecessary at this point where you can't say anything even slightly critical of the man without buddhahat (in his own words, more or less, but in reference to me) charging in on his white horse to save the day. that's been my perception lurking through the thread, and evidently I'm not alone. I mean, it's not a big deal, but it is a valid point to raise against someone who criticizes the rest of us for being too protective of Brian. Since he's come back, no one has been abusive or even overtly hostile to Daro. So...just let the man defend himself. I'm sure he's quite capable

Why even bring it up I think many of us are wondering.

***Deleted Post***

Well, not to derail the thread, as I was just trying to get buddhahat to consider that he wasn't being condescended to, and the other guy had a valid point, but I'd like to respond to this.

I said far worse to Daro on the thread that was pulled. I have no regrets about it and I'd absolutely say it to his face had he also said what he had in my physical presence. I'm sure these guys would to. Just because they're not positive comments doesn't make them hostile or abusive.

If buddhahat wants to be Daro's "cheerleader/defender" for lack of better terms, that's his business. But it's kinda unnecessary, and apparently I'm not alone in thinking so. This is a grown man here. Let him defend himself. I've endured far worse on this board and elsewhere and I'm sure I'm not alone. He chose to come back, knowing what to expect. Give him a little credit. Especially if you're going to raise the point that I and others are "too protective of Brian."

But, I really don't want to shift focus here. Daro came back to answer questions and that's what this thread is for now. I just thought that since someone else brought it up, and buddhahat brushed it off, that I should reiterate that it really does seem unnecessary, to be someone else's second mouth every time they get a reply that isn't 100% lauditory.

Thanks again.  I am trying to get a handle on how Brian ended up isolated.  You, Michael Vosse, David Anderle, Van Dyke Parks, and Derek Taylor all left the scene eventually.  Was it just an untenable and hopeless situation to stay around (that is the impression I get) or did Brian initiate cutting some ties as well?  

Also, you've talked about Brian's romantic feelings for Diane Rovell, but she also served a role coordinating musicians for sessions, etc.  Did you consider her to be supportive of Brian?

Edit:  I don't remember seeing this discussed (sorry if I missed it), but do you remember Brian being disappointed by the sales of 'Pet Sounds' and perhaps by Capitol's lack of support?   Although he went into the "Good Vibrations" and 'Smile' projects, did that cause self-doubt for him?   (Capitol released a greatest hits album less than 2 months after 'Pet Sounds' release).

Aside from the now-obvious impossibility of asking Michael Vosse to confirm Lorren's presence during the Pet Sounds sessions, there's something else lurking in the deeper, darker recesses of my mind about him (Vosse) and said album. Got some reading & Googling to do after work.

Later: OK, from what I know of when Brian first met Vosse - for the latter to do an interview for Teen Set - and what Vosse himself said about the Frank Zappa interview that preceded it (and that it was printed in the 12/66 issue), I'm getting the very strong impression that Michael first met Brian after Pet Sounds was released.  Corrections, thoughts, additions, heartfelt requests to STFU ?

It's long been documented that Brian forced at least Vosse and Siegel out of the picture by his (to them) irrational behaviour: the former by refusing to see him at a delicate point in negotiations with Capitol over the release of "H&V" on Brother, the latter because he got it into his head that Siegel's gf was a witch and messing with his head. I think Van Dyke officially left when offered an album deal by Warners but he's also stated that he walked away from an apparently impossible (family/band) situation.

Thanks, Andrew.  I am familiar with these accounts (though I had forgotten the Vosse negotiations bit), but I am curious if Lorren has additional information or opinions about these departures.

 
Mujan - I was responding to two posts only, which I found unnecessarily sarcastic and didn't really bring anything to the discussion imo and felt like a thread crap. I have no problem with people flagging up inaccuracies in Daro's account, providing it's not the usual mindless  'this guy's full of sh*t' approach. This is less about being Daro's Chester (nice one, Putin) and more about just trying to defend the thread itself so Daro is more inclined to post here.

All the above said however I accept the accusations of hypocrisy on my part. I may have gone too far and can see that this itself is now distracting and has become an irritant to some, hence my 'point taken' comment.  

Are you the one who turned Brian on to the comedy LP "How To Speak Hip" by Del Close and John Brent?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6a7X96L0Y4

Royce

Hardly that.

Anyone who starts a sentence with, `It was my contribution to the world...` is asking for an awful lot more than he has received so far. People have generally been understanding and accepting in the face of plenty of antagonism and inaccuracy.

My head is right where it should be.... You seem to not know that we've heard all of this crap before from a guy named Landy, who also promoted himself as a great guy that only had Brian's best interest at heart. Good luck with your agenda. I will leave you alone now.

OK, found it - in the legendary Fusion piece, Vosse states that he wanted to talk to Brian about Pet Sounds, and that Brian was then working on Smile. So... even if he were still with us, Vosse couldn't confirm Lorren was present at the Pet Sounds sessions because he himself wasn't.

Thanks, Andrew. I definitely understand the desire for and necessity of establishing a timeline that contextualizes and corroborates these accounts with other known facts.

IMO the several hours of David Leaf interview material with Lorren might be worth transcribing as additional background material. To the extent that it sheds light on any details not covered in questions posed here, it might prompt some other directions for discussion that would prove more satisfactory to the various flavors of skepticism that continue to manifest themselves here.

You had mentioned earlier Vosse's leaving and I believe that Michael told me that he left because he didn't have anything to do or nothing was getting done or he otherwise didn't feel like he was earning his money as the TV/movie guy and he left to help with Monterey. They did give him the Ford Mustang they had provided for him to use in the job I remember.

I was remiss in not mentioning that Michael didn't just walk away from Brian, but from Brother Records entirely.

Lorren – thank you very much sincerely for all of your recollections on this board. Count me in as someone who greatly values your point of view and stories.

Do you recall any info about why the “Caroline No” single (released pre-Pet Sounds) was released as a “Brian Wilson” solo single? Was this Brian’s idea or Capitol’s? Was it a way to test the waters to see if he was a viable solo artist (and for what reason - to break away from the band?), or perhaps a passive aggressive maneuver to show that he could carry a song without needing the band’s name?

Side note  (I don’t know if you’re aware of this, since you weren’t in Brian’s circle anymore in late 1967) - I’ve always found it interesting that after the failure and non-release of SMiLE, Brian reverted back to primarily writing with Mike for Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, and a single for the song “Getting’ Hungry” from 1967 was oddly very specifically credited as by “Brian and Mike”, which to me seemed to be a very specific attempt to “undo” the solo “Brian can do it on his own” aspect that had been built up over the past couple of years. My outside opinion is that this crediting (and reverting to Mike as the main collaborator) seemed like the actions of a defeated and bullied man.

Add Some:  No, Brian didn’t ‘…get there’. I could take him only so far. That’s why I said ‘partly there’ in my post. But, as I wrote, it was enough to get rid of Murry, Marilyn and at least put ML at a distance. Brian couldn’t get rid of ML. He controlled the band, he was the lead singer, ML was ‘the band.’ Lose ML and you lose the road. He couldn’t do that to Carl, Dennis and Al. It was an institution that he would have to work around. Which is what he ultimately did. Little by little, and with the help of the media, ML began to understand that his contribution to the material was trivial, and that Brian was increasingly perceived as a genius. I think he faded because there were no more battles to be won.

Buddhahat: Brian was intimidated by The Beatles from their first records. At first, they were just rockers, but what knocked him off his feet was ‘Revolver’ -- whole new change in tone and artistry. From that album on, he felt competitive, and I think the roots of ‘Pet Sounds’ were planted by it. With the production values of Spector, combined with the depth of ‘Revolver’, ‘Pet Sounds’ was his answer to The Beatles. His listened to them constantly, but none hit him deeper than ‘Revolver’. He knew that even with his own great talent (and he was aware of it), he would never reach the heights they had flown to.

MrRobinsonsFather: Sorry, dear friend, I never visited Brian in the Seventies. I moved to Big Sur in 1969 and never looked back. I didn’t notice any change in his voice as long as I knew him. Sorry.

Tricycle Rider: As far as I could tell, Capitol was always supportive. They often appeared at the ‘Pet Sounds’ sessions, but said nothing. He was the Golden Goose, so why hassle him? I never heard of any issues of Brian touching the board. I was in the booth with him for many hours and he often moved the controls on the board. The engineer never seemed to mind. Fairy dust, I think.

OneEar/OneEye: I have no information on this subject. As I recently posted, my interest was in Brian, not in the music. Questions like this are not relevant to my experience.

Les P: I don’t remember Derek Taylor being that close to ‘the scene’. Van Dyke, Vosse and Anderle were. I don’t know if Brian cut ties with those I named, I doubt it. He never cut ties with me. After visiting him at the Bellagio house, as I previously wrote, he was on edge, a little frantic and unhappy. I felt it was time to go. I had done all I could by then. As for Diane, I’m sure Brian did all he could to keep her around. I know this: She was not in love with Brian and would never be. They were two very different people. She was regal, intelligent and gorgeous, and my impression was, like any Jewish girl of that kind, she wanted to marry someone sane and professional who could provide her and their family with a stable, affluent environment. Brian certainly was affluent, but stable he was not. As for Brian’s ‘self doubt’, I never perceived that in him. Like any true artist, he believed in his visions.

AGD: Correction: I had met Michael Vosse at Brian’s house a number of times before the ‘Pet Sounds’ sessions. We became good friends. I hung out with him for a time when David Leaf was interviewing both of us for the ‘Beautiful Dreamer’ documentary in San Francisco. He didn’t look well to me – haggard, weak and covered with extreme dandruff. Michael was at almost as many of the ‘Pet Sounds’ instrumental sessions as I was. We talked a lot during that time. He told me that he was there writing a story for ‘Rolling Stone’. I don’t know if it was true, but he said it was. Michael always seemed trustworthy to me. I liked him a lot. I don’t know anything about Vosse and Siegel leaving Brian, or being thrown out, for that matter. As for troubles with the 'family band,' I wouldn’t doubt that for a minute, what with ML and all.

Tricycle Rider: Yes, I am proud to say that I turned Brian on to ‘How To Speak Hip’. Del Close and Jon Brent were acquaintances of mine – we had mutual friends. I also introduced him to Lenny Bruce, Lord Buckley, Mort Sahl and Brother Dave Gardner. He didn’t get much of what they were saying, but remember that Brian didn’t know who Clark Gable, Gary Cooper and Cary Grant were. Talk about isolated…

Paul J B: There is nothing you could have said that could have hurt me more deeply than to be compared to Eugene Landy. Landy isolated Brian more than ever before – I tried to free him. Landy fed Brian injurious drugs and kept him in stupor to control him – I tried to free Brian’s mind with deep conversations, and, reluctantly, with pot and LSD, and I believe I did. Landy was a charlatan and a quack in for the fame and the money – I was the opposite. Paul, you are one cruel SOB to have the nerve to post what you did. I’m shaken by your sadism.

AGD: You don’t need Vosse to verify that I was at those sessions. Just ask Brian. God, you’re hard to please…

Century Deprived: Yes, ‘defeated and bullied.’ It was a downward slope after that. He has never fully recovered. He’s in the hands of his keepers now and forever…

Note to All: Please read, or re-read, my Reply #411 on: January 24, 2015. Perhaps this will result in my being asked questions that I can answer with experience and relevance instead of those that are beyond my ability to address.

What Nicko & the camp said 10fold.

Vosse from the Fusion article he wrote shortly after Smile crashed and burned:

"I first met Brian when I was sent to do an interview for Teen Set magazine (Capitol puff rag)... I wanted to talk about Pet Sounds because I felt he wanted to do soem sort of religious music... He was telling me about some of the things he was working on... In the press releases the album was referred to as Dumb Angel but he told me the record was going to be called Smile."


Yet you originally stated that he could verify your presence. And yes, I am.

In what way exactly did you help to get rid of Marilyn? You mean in convincing them to divorce a few short years later in 1979?

And what sort or excrescence feels pride at supposedly wrecking somebody else`s marriage?

How could Pet Sounds be inspired by Revolver, when Revolver came out 3 months after Pet Sounds?

Evidently Brian was once more lying to all of us when he said Pet Sounds was his response to Rubber Soul.

....although, in fairness, even ex-Beatles have been known to confuse Revolver and Rubber Soul.  That's the trouble with the 60s, the people who 'were there' often have the worst recall.  If only they'd kept daily journals for the archivists of the future; what were they thinking...?  ;)

I agree...on THAT one...Revolver/Rubber Soul...I think Lorren just got 'em mixed up.  Anyway he has pointed out twice now that he would prefer that the questions come from a different angle and referenced a thread number this time.  So I'm going to check that out.

I went to the same high school as former National Baseball League MVP Joey Votto.  Can't tell you a thing about him though.  The timing's way off.  [but only by about 30 years]

Fair enough, though I would think that having an interest in Brian might naturally lead one to the music as well. 
Guess not, at least in your case anyway.   
   

Lorren -

As an improvisor in the style pioneered by Del Close, I'm also very interested in any experiences with him you'd care to share. Are you aware of Brian and Del ever crossing paths? I remember being amazed the first time I heard about Brian being a fan.

If the people who 'were there' have the worst recall, why are we even asking this guy any questions at all? This seems to be just another thing that he's contradicted himself on.

Tony Asher said that he introduced Brian to How to Speak Hip

I'm also wondering why the hell anybody would think Daro would remember the meaning behind a single handwritten note he hasn't seen in 50 years -- if ever at all.

Daro, I do have to ask about this comment:
In a 1995 TV documentary, Brian said:

"I was flipping out. I couldn't understand how a group could be just yelled and screamed at. The music they made, 'I Want to Hold Your Hand' for example, wasn't even that great a record, but they just screamed at it. ... It got us off our asses in the studio. We started cutting – we said 'look, don't worry about the Beatles, we'll cut our own stuff."

What do you make of this comment? It doesn't sound like he was actually intimidated by their music, at least until Rubber Soul (...or "Revolver").

Daro,

If you have the time, it may be a good refresher to peruse some texts that have been written over the years involving the epochs you were around for. Besides the Wikipedia pages for Pet Sounds and Smile, there is also a website that reprints the 200-some-odd-pages liner notes that were published with The Pet Sounds Sessions box set in 1997. I will attach some links:

-Mike Love's preface written for The Pet Sounds sessions booklet (http://albumlinernotes.com/The_Making_of_Pet_Sounds.html)
-Tony Asher's comments from The Pet Sounds Sessions (http://albumlinernotes.com/Tony_Asher_Interview.html)
-Marilyn Wilson comments from The Pet Sounds sessions (http://albumlinernotes.com/Marilyn_Wilson_Comments.html)
-Pet Sounds article on Wikipedia (written by the public, not any single editor) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Sounds)
-Smile article on Wikipedia (written by the public, not any single editor) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile_(The_Beach_Boys_album))

Feel free to quickly skim through these pages. Maybe they'll conjure up some additional thoughts, memories, or inconsistencies from your POV that have yet to arise in the thread. At best, you'll be brought up to speed with the rest of the board's knowledge.

Nicko1234: What I meant by getting rid of Marilyn was he distanced himself from her, and no longer took her hysterics personally. It eventually led to divorce. Do I regret breaking up that marriage? Not for a second…

Mr Verlander: Yes, I may have been wrong about ‘Revolver’. It may have been ‘Rubber Soul’. These are all slightly dim memories. I’m doing my best, but I screw up now and then.

AGD: Please read the above about the Beatles album mistake.

I didn’t imagine that Vosse was at the ‘Pet Sounds’ instrumental sessions. I don’t know or care why he states differently. He may have had his own reasons for doing that. I don’t imagine human beings where they don’t exist. I wish I had someone else to verify this, but I don’t. I guess we’ll have to live with it. You’re a snide f***, aren’t you, AGD? You don’t get out much, do you?

OneEar/OneEye: I said that I love the BB records, and a lot of other music, as well. I used to be a professional musician. But, my interest doesn’t include the technical aspects of music. My true interest is in human beings and their behavior. My greatest loves are for literature and philosophy. Sorry…

Doinnothin: Del Close, and Jon Brent, for that matter, never met Brian that I know of.

Puni puni: I introduced the ‘How To Speak Hip’ album to Tony Asher. We played it many times together in my living room. He passed it on to Brian, as I did. I know I was the first to play it for him.

Note: I’m getting tired of this nit-picking and dumb questions. People trying to bust me at every turn. This is no longer fun – or meaningful. Yes, I’m an old man. I don’t have the clear memory or the patience for this anymore. Yes, I make mistakes, but they’re usually technical ones – dates, etc. – I ask for depth and I get shallow. I’m drifting away…

Thanks for the clarification on How to Speak Hip. Again, I agree that some of the questions you've been asked are unforgivingly trivial, like dates or specific track information. I can hardly distinguish what I did in the months of 2012 between the months of 2013, let alone 2002 or 2003, or in your dramatically understated case, 1964 and 1965.

I also would not consider the publications written by Vosse or other people from that era to be gospel. Even though most people treat such contemporary articles as 100% truth, I've found some of them susceptible to bias, falsehoods, or other inaccuracies. It'd be a shame if you do decide to leave.

I think anyone can understand an older person making some factual errors. But not somebody constantly contradicting himself from one post to the next.

And asking for details is hardly shallow is it. Simply accepting everything (including the completely false stuff) that anyone posts would hardly be `deeper` would it...

And some of us questioned the quality of the queries put forward in yesterdays Q and A?  Child's-play.  I kind of look at Lorren as a mine.  [Sorry Lorren...I know you're actually blood, flesh and bone...with feelings too]  The thing is...THIS is an opportunity...chalk full of gems.  Yes sifting is required.  Some of you?  Good thing you're not miners.  You'd have starved to death after your supplies ran out.

There is work to be done here.  Let those who can...do it.

Or is it just another means to once again chase information away and into hiding...never to be accessed again?   The man is in the second half of his 70s for gawd sake.  This shyte happened  when he was in his late 20s.  Who sat next to YOU in your Grade 1 class picture?  Both sides?  And who's that behind you?  Got the answers?  Can you name the crossing guards?  Don't expect perfect.  Expect some gems.  Doctor Gee Zeus!!!!

Un-fucking-believable. :angry

And we asked for reliable insight and are getting nothing but contradictions and inaccuracies. I don't want to see you go, but drop the woe is me attitude. Nobody has said anything uncalled for, and AGD is just trying to tie what you're saying into what else we know as best he can. Petty insults his way only make you look worse.

But, I've got a question. I asked this to Brian and (predictably) got no response. So, were you one of the people who was involved in the Psychedelic Sounds comedy sketches by any chance? I'm not sure who all was. They were recorded in December '66. If you were there, if you remember...what can you say about them? Did Brian talk about how they might fit into SMiLE or if they were for something else?

AGD and others - relax, man. That's all I have to say about that.

Hey, Daro, what I'm really interested is what the LSD experience was like back then. I know growing up in the '90s, I had tons of information on esoteric topics thanks to the internet. I was logging in by about '96, and that really opened worlds of new thought to me.

Growing up in the '50s, I'd imagine access to unconventional information was much harder to come by. Knowing where to look for and how to find all the heady ideas circulating back then almost required knowing the right people. Growing in Hawthorne like Brian did, it would've been tough to plug in. Who would've planted the seeds of greater ideas in one's head in a town like that?

So when you did meet the right people, read the right books, and perhaps dabbled in the psychedelic experience, it must've been mind-blowing on a level I can't imagine. I know my first psychedelic experience was very shocking, even though I was thoroughly versed on what to expect. For someone like Brian, it must've been like - well - seeing idea.

I'm curious about what sorts of philosophical ideas relating to music and life were being passed around then in the "hip" circles. People must've felt they were right at the stage when one grand epoch transitions into another one. It was, undoubtedly, monumental. I sense Brian combing all sorts of eras in his music in a very intelligent way, sort of like this expansive vision of everything that was America at that time.

I guess I don't know where I'm ultimately heading with this one, but I thought maybe it could spark an interesting discussion.

One persons "trivial" may be another's "meaningful".   If he doesn't know the answer to something or feels it is beneath him (or whatever) to address it, that's fine - don't answer it, but there's no need to be insulting those who are asking questions is there?   Just because you feel they aren't worthy enough questions?   ::)
As far as I have seen so far there hasn't been anything "deep" being presented.   This is being blamed on the questions being posed, but maybe it's just a matter of there not being much depth there in the first place.   All I have read thus far is the same old "people around Brian (family/wife/record company) were not nice to him and he wasn't allowed to flourish, etc.  
All that may very well be true - but it's nothing new or deep.  

Sorry if you don't appreciate my post here, but I am little rankled by some of this crap.   I will excuse myself from any further participation in this thread.
So please carry on you miners of gems, you lofty, deep thinkers  :thumbsup

Hello, mods - someone's just called me a snide f***. I'm guessing they're going to get banned for that, right ? Because those are the rules, aren't they ?


OK... all I've been doing is looking into what you've claimed to tie it into the established timeline (or for internal credibility), and pretty much every time, you've come up short.

The tour you managed was 1963... oh. no, it was 1964, dates which no-one has documented...

You last met Brian in 1967... oh no, you told someone else it was 1981...

Vosse can confirm you were at the Pet Sounds sessions... aside from his being two years dead, his contemporary account proves that he wasn't at those sessions. yet you still claim he, and you were.

You claim the family and band influenced the content of Brian's 1991 book to keep your name out of it... a good trick as he was under Landy's thumb by then and estranged from pretty much everyone.

And you expect me to take your claims seriously ? You came here with one agenda, as you stated - to "clear" your name. There's an increasing number of folk here not buying that, due in no small part to your antagonistic manner. You make think me a snide f***, but at least I'll not go down in BB history as the man who blew Brian's mind with acid and laughed about it. Stay classy.

By "Psycodelic Sounds", he means these recordings, Daro: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWTHzKFd1KI

Lorren,
There are those of us that are enjoying your company, trying to ask decent questions, and trying above all, to learn some things. Please consider staying around a bit longer for US. Perhaps you could just stop replying to those only interested in antagonism of one sort or another?

The "How To Speak Hip" LP is a riot isn't it? I suppose that whole culture began with "fast talking" (a phrase most will not get these days)

My mind is blown about Brian not knowing who Clark Gable, Gary Cooper and Cary Grant were! I mean, how could ANYBODY be that isolated? (a rhetorical question) It must have been something to see that kind of musical mind wrapped in such an uncultured young man.

This brings something to mind. (for me anyway) What the F**K has happened to education in this country? How did we get from the International Geophysical Year to here in such a short time?. I had a long discussion with my dear departed friend Rick Jaeger (drummer for Dave Mason, Pointer Sisters, Crosby Stills and Nash etc...) and he was just beside himself over it. People (warning, sweeping generalization) are so stupid these days it's painful. I suppose any culture infatuated with famous people and money is bound to turn out like this.

Did you ever try to turn Brian on to other musical artists, or did you think he didn't need that?

What instrument(s) do you play? What were your musician experiences? Is it OK to talk about things other than Brian?

Turn Signal:

What do you think about anti gravity technology and other life in the universe? (seriously)

What, are you five? "Teacher, teacher! He called me a bad name!"

You guys are unbelieveable. I doubt banning is even necessary at this point. I don't see why he would possibly be compelled to post anything more after the repeated rudeness and hositility directed at him.

Just reminding folk of the rules here, which apply to all posters.

A historian, there, trying to get a historical figure banned from the discourse.