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Author Topic: The Lorren Daro Thread  (Read 233713 times)
barsone
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« Reply #375 on: January 23, 2015, 02:33:42 PM »

Again thanks for all the posts Lorren and yes its a bitch getting old.  I do have one question.  During that short period where you were the tour manager,  how was your perception of Al Jardine within the context of the group in the 63-66/67 timeframe.  Obviously at the early part of BB history, he was in  then out  then back in, which is probably why Marks has no idea who you are.  Could you sense back then that Al was an outsider (not family) and not a relevant member of the group and maybe not taken seriously.  Like when the group came back for their voices on the PS tracks.  Curious what Al was like during those sessions ?
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« Reply #376 on: January 23, 2015, 02:42:00 PM »

Barsone:  Yes, I've been waiting for this question: I loved Al Jardine. He was the sweetest of them all. I could talk straight to him and get straight answers. He was always on the outside of the group, but made superb contributions to their music. Carl and Dennis, after all, were not terribly bright. ML easily ruled them. My impression is that Al went along, but had barriers that ML wouldn’t cross. He had integrity and a clear sense of himself and his talent. I spent more time with him than any of the band, excluding, of course, Brian. Thanks for asking…

Lorren Daro
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« Reply #377 on: January 23, 2015, 02:55:42 PM »

AGD: Will you please get over the ‘mindless prick’ business. You’re beginning to sound insecure. I didn’t mean you. You know whom I meant. What will you do when someone calls you an asshole? Will you faint dead away?

Been called that, and far worse, on here and other fora over the years.  Grin

Quote
I quit GAC in June of 1963. Brian brought me on for one short tour in the winter of that year. It was not twelve dates, but just a few. We flew to New York and did gigs in New England, none in NYC. That was the one and only TM job I did. We were home before Christmas as I recall. For God’s sake, AGD, this was fifty years ago…

Ian Rusten (concert historian without peer) has no fall New England shows documented - if you could recall just the towns, he'd have something to work on. This is what he's got thus far:

October   
11 - Timers session: No-Go Showboat (RCA - BW bvs)
18 - session: Bobby Left Me/Little St. Nick/Drive-In [Western]
19 - Y-Day Concert, Hollywood Bowl, Hollywood CA
        [w/The Routers, Mike Clifford, The Cornells, Paul Petersen, Soupy Sales,
        The Mixtures, Keith Colley, Eddie & The Showmen, Dodie Stevens, The
        Fleetwoods, Vic Dana, Duane Eddy, The Honeys, The Challengers,
        Jan & Dean, The Surfaris & Bobby Rydell]
20 - single session: Little St. Nick/The Lord's Prayer (vocals) [Western]
?? - Jan & Dean session: Drag City vocals (BW)
?? - Jan & Dean session: Little Deuce Coupe
23 - Santa Maria HS Gym, Santa Maria CA* [w/Jan and Dean and the Honeys]
31 - Loyola University, Loyola CA [2 shows]
?? - Jan & Dean session: Drag City

November
  6 - session: I Do [RCA]
14 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve 
15 - Wallich's Music City grand opening, South Bay Center, Los Angeles CA*
        [w/host Bob Crane, Jan and Dean, Dodie Stevens, The Lennon  Sisters, Dick Dale,
        Wayne Newton, Rose Marie, Jack Jones, Tim Morgan, Gene McDaniels,  The
        Righteous Brothers, The Surfaris, The Ventures and Kay Starr]
16 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
17 - Jan & Dean session: Dead Man's Curve
22 - Dick Clark's American Bandstand Celebrity Party ABC TV [w/Frankie Avalon,
        Annette, Jan & Dean, Dick Dale, Wayne Newton, Dick & Dee Dee, Trini
        Lopez, Johnny Mathis, Connie Francis, The Challengers & Donna Loren]
22 - Memorial Auditorium,  Marysville CA [w/Freddy & The Statics]
23 - Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento CA [cancelled]
29 - National Guard Armory, Indio CA*
30 - Channel 18 Saturday Night Bandstand Dance, Municipal Auditorium, San Bernadino
       CA [w/The Torquays, The Astronauts and The Dave Pell Octet]
13 - Sharon Marie session: The Story Of My Life/Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby [Western]
20 - Civic Auditorium, Stockton CA
21 - Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento CA* [recorded for Beach Boys Concert]
27 - The Terrace, Salt Lake City UT*
28 - The Terrace, Salt Lake City UT*
31 - Cinnamon Cinder, San Bernardino CA*
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SenorPotatoHead
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« Reply #378 on: January 23, 2015, 02:56:39 PM »

"SenorPotatoHead: Yes, sentimentality. As opposed to sentiment. Two very different things.  Isaiah Berlin once wrote that sentimentality is the cause of all the violence in the world."

Right.  Now that you mention it, I have witnessed a particularly large amount of hostility in the produce section of the market.    
  
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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #379 on: January 23, 2015, 03:05:41 PM »

On the other hand, Andrew (who recused himself from this thread previously, I might note...) it's possible that:

1--these are dates not documented for some reason (Ian notes this phenomenon in his book);
2--Lorren's memory may be playing enough tricks on him that the dates he's remembering are actually from fall 1964 (Rochester NY, New Haven CT, Cleveland OH, Detroit MI, Cincinnati OH).

Lorren--I hope someone interviews you on camera in a more free-form; it's clear from your writing style that in the right setting you'd be very articulate (and opinionated!!) on camera. I hope to ask a few questions a bit later on, hope everyone will continue in the spirit that has (mostly) coalesced.

And kudos to Guitarfool for most appropriately moving this thread over the the "Honored Guests" section.
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« Reply #380 on: January 23, 2015, 04:10:54 PM »

Lorren...thanks for your previous response.  2 questions this time...

1.  At any time leading up to completion of 'Pet Sounds' did Brian wonder out loud whether or not he might make it a solo project?
2.  With the inner mental image of HOW he wanted his music to sound on record...was Brian disappointed that THAT sound could not be replicated live on stage?
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« Reply #381 on: January 23, 2015, 11:43:03 PM »

On the other hand, Andrew (who recused himself from this thread previously, I might note...) it's possible that:

1--these are dates not documented for some reason (Ian notes this phenomenon in his book);
2--Lorren's memory may be playing enough tricks on him that the dates he's remembering are actually from fall 1964 (Rochester NY, New Haven CT, Cleveland OH, Detroit MI, Cincinnati OH).

Both very fair points. Ian admits that there are still gigs missing - principally in 1962 - but a whole new 1963 tour would be some find. As for it being 1964...  Lorren says shows in New England, not the midwest, and specifically says no shows in NYC. Business as usual in the BB world. I'm sure Ian is on this as we speak.  Grin
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« Reply #382 on: January 23, 2015, 11:50:20 PM »

Lorren, I was wondering if you could comment a bit on the Pet Sounds sessions.  What was the mood like at the time?  Was there a vibe that something very special was happening or was it seen as just another album?  Also, did you get the sense that the band was resistant to the material or did that only come later?  Any thoughts you'd like to share would be interesting...  Thanks!
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« Reply #383 on: January 24, 2015, 12:32:39 AM »

Don Malcolm: Oddly enough, David Leaf recorded the interview with me for almost two hours, of which he used about ten minutes. Much of what I’ve written here was said before on during those two hours. David sent me a copy.

AGD: As I remember it, and as I said, this was in cold December, not November. Thinking it over, it might have been 1964. Same month. So much of this is lost to me because, high most of the time, I never kept track of dates and years. I was in Chicago with Lynda when Kennedy was killed in 1963, another reason why it must have been 1964. I don’t know why this matters, but I hope it does. Leave it to Don Malcolm to come through again…

Add Some: I am quite sure that Brian never intended ‘Pet Sounds’ to be a solo project. His ideas for the vocals were there from the beginning. He wasn’t ready to walk away from the Boys. Also, I don’t think he cared about presenting the album onstage. This was a studio album with the Wrecking Crew and was meant to be just that. That’s why ML hated it. He thought the golden eggs from his golden goose were gone forever…

 Avon Todd: ‘Pet Sounds’ was certainly something special for Brian. It was his big departure from the old ways. The Wrecking Crew was absolutely in awe of Brian, and many said it was one of the high moments of their careers. I can’t say for sure, but I believe that the Boys weren’t fully aware of what he was doing. ML, or any of the others were not at the sessions, at least I never saw them there, and I was there for almost all of them. (Vosse was there, too. You can ask him about this). I believe he told them that they would put vocals on the tracks when he was done. Murry was there for one or two and tried to bully Brian as best he could. Brian eventually asked him to leave the studio and not come back.  

One remarkable moment was when Brian went into the studio to consult with one of those incredible musicians and I was in the booth with Murry and some Capitol executives. Here’s what I heard him say: “Brian isn’t the real talent in the family, I am. I write much better songs than he does. He can’t hear stereo. He’s deaf in one ear, you know. I taught him everything he knows. If it wasn’t for me, he’d be nothing.” Murry, as Brian told me, had hit him in the side of his head with a 2X4 when he was a boy. That’s what caused his deafness.

An added note: I’m sure you all know this, but I’ll say it anyway. Dennis stopped playing the drums on the records very early on. Brian would have a session with him and never use it. Brian usually sang each of the vocal parts into the earphones of all of them but ML and, I think, Al Jardine during recordings. Many of the tracks include almost all Brian’s vocals and very few of the Boys.

Lorren Daro
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 12:40:09 AM by Lorren Daro » Logged
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« Reply #384 on: January 24, 2015, 12:53:32 AM »

Hi Lorren,

When you say you were there for the entire Pet Sounds sessions, did you mean the sessions for Pet sounds the album or Pet Sounds the song?

Do you have any other recollections about specific Pet Sounds songs - God Only Knows for example?

Did you witness Brian and tony Asher collaborating at any point?

Finally, did Brian ever play you any of his compositions at the piano?

As ever, thanks for your patience with all these questions.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 01:25:38 AM by buddhahat » Logged

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« Reply #385 on: January 24, 2015, 12:57:58 AM »

AGD: As I remember it, and as I said, this was in cold December, not November. Thinking it over, it might have been 1964. Same month. So much of this is lost to me because, high most of the time, I never kept track of dates and years. I was in Chicago with Lynda when Kennedy was killed in 1963, another reason why it must have been 1964. I don’t know why this matters, but I hope it does.

Lorren, you're new here - here's why it matters, to me and several other fact-geeks here. The incomparable music of Brian Wilson & The Beach Boys has given me immeasurable pleasure over the years, has materially altered the course of my life and gotten me places I would never have otherwise gone. Yet they command far less respect than they should and there are so, so many misapprehensions about them and their music. Everyone knows they never played on their hits of the 60s. It's a Quixotic quest, but I want their history accurately documented and to this end, I'm doing the best I can: others are doing far better. Win a few, loose a few. Does any given recollection have to be "right" ? Would be nice, but that it fits into the accepted framework of known, documented dates helps a lot (although those very dates can be open to question and have, in the past, crumbled on closer scrutiny). I've made some appalling errors of fact and deduction, some enshrined in print. That's why it matters. Because the music deserves nothing less. That's why I sometimes seize upon an erroneous recollection - by anyone, Brian included - and worry the living bejeezus out of it.
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« Reply #386 on: January 24, 2015, 01:00:38 AM »

Vosse has passed away.
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« Reply #387 on: January 24, 2015, 01:23:18 AM »

Murry, as Brian told me, had hit him in the side of his head with a 2X4 when he was a boy. That’s what caused his deafness.

Audree said it was congenital, a damaged 9th nerve and that they noticed it when Brian was very young, under two. You're suggesting Murry hit a toddler around the head with a 2x4 ? Brian told you that ? He's also said it was a kid down the block. Brian said he burned the "Fire" tapes. Brian denied there was going to be any reunion in 2012. You see my point.

Quote
An added note: I’m sure you all know this, but I’ll say it anyway. Dennis stopped playing the drums on the records very early on. Brian would have a session with him and never use it. Brian usually sang each of the vocal parts into the earphones of all of them but ML and, I think, Al Jardine during recordings. Many of the tracks include almost all Brian’s vocals and very few of the Boys.

No, we don't know this... because it's not true. See my previous post. You're propagating a long-discredited canard, discredited by not only the session contracts but also by the session tapes. I think David Leaf claimed Brian went through agonies about how to tell Dennis he wasn't drumming on "Little Deuce Coupe". Touching story, unfortunately entirely untrue. Far better people than I have researched this topic and, for example, the complex drum pattern on "When I Grow UP..." ? That's Dennis. Lorren, this is the single thing that adhering to will seriously damage your credibility here, because it's simply demonstrably not true. And this is an instance when being right does matter.
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« Reply #388 on: January 24, 2015, 01:35:14 AM »

Great Lorren.  Thanks again.  I asked about Brian keeping Pet Sounds as a solo venture I guess because of his possibly anticipating negative reactions from some of the guys and also because he did such a fine job doing all of the vocals on his own...but you futher explained that with your response to Avon Todd.

Brian was never one for being 'on camera was he?  I know I react badly when it happens infrequently to me.  I'm remembering the bit he did with the Boys, Bob Hope and Jack Benny.  Uncomfortable.  [and then some]  Any stories there?

You've mentioned a few times that Capitol didn't like Smile and wouldn't release it...YET...they accepted Smiley Smile?  How the heck would they think that Smile was anywhere near as 'ODD' as the replacement record?  Smiley Smile is the one that's way off base isn't it?  I thought, according to David Anderle [and Paul Williams was it?], that Capitol was freaking out because Brian couldn't meet any of the passing deadlines with the completed Smile album and that they were entirely pissed of that there was nothing to release.   Smiley Smile was like a WTF last minute replacement  I don't think Smile ever got close to completion until Brian sat down and, with some assistance, mapped out a Smile finish line about 12 years ago...Huh
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 01:41:39 AM by Add Some » Logged

"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #389 on: January 24, 2015, 02:43:49 AM »

You've mentioned a few times that Capitol didn't like Smile and wouldn't release it...YET...they accepted Smiley Smile?  How the heck would they think that Smile was anywhere near as 'ODD' as the replacement record?  Smiley Smile is the one that's way off base isn't it?  I thought, according to David Anderle [and Paul Williams was it?], that Capitol was freaking out because Brian couldn't meet any of the passing deadlines with the completed Smile album and that they were entirely pissed of that there was nothing to release.   Smiley Smile was like a WTF last minute replacement  I don't think Smile ever got close to completion until Brian sat down and, with some assistance, mapped out a Smile finish line about 12 years ago...Huh

It's surely one of the bigger WTF ? moments in BB history, and lord knows, there are enough of those, but bear in mind that Capitol didn't actually release Smiley Smile, rather they distributed it for the bands Brother label. That said, they sure as hell funded several months worth of Smile sessions, so I'm guessing they were looking to recoup something, anything. That or someone spiked their coffee. Oh to have been in the tower the first time they heard it...
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« Reply #390 on: January 24, 2015, 03:01:42 AM »

Thanks for your recollections about Al. What was Bruce like, Lorren?
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« Reply #391 on: January 24, 2015, 04:51:23 AM »

Just like when you've liked a band your whole life and then someone comes along and starts liking them too, and it's just soooo annnoying, right?  Cos you discovered them first,  and who are they to have an opinion...  THEY WEREN"T THERE AT THE BEGINNING!  Wink

Well, I just want to say right here that............I think you're a cute little booger.  Wink

That made me laugh, out loud Smiley   (adopting it)
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« Reply #392 on: January 24, 2015, 06:52:02 AM »

AGD: I’m beginning to understand what’s going on here. It seems that I’m as much of a victim of bad rumors as anyone else. I lot of what I’ve said was from Brian’s mouth – the 2X4 deafness, Dennis’s drumming, the journey of the ‘Smile’ records, etc. And, no, AGD I’m not going to cling to these ‘facts’. I’m here to learn, as well as to relate what I think I know. My distant memories are suspect. I see that now. Good thing you’re here to keep me on the path. I didn’t think I would run into all this scientific analysis…

Buddhahat: I was at the instrumental sessions, never the vocals. No specific info about ‘God Only Knows.’ I watched Brian and Tony work at the grand piano at the Laurel Way house a couple of times. Boring to watch, actually. Brian played stuff for me all the time. Every time I was at the house, he’d sit down and play fragments of songs and asked what I thought. It was hard to have opinions because they hadn’t taken form yet.

Notice how all this is slowing down? I’m not the new novelty any more. It’s okay. Glad to have had this experience. Some very fine people here…
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« Reply #393 on: January 24, 2015, 07:01:53 AM »

Quote
An added note: I’m sure you all know this, but I’ll say it anyway. Dennis stopped playing the drums on the records very early on. Brian would have a session with him and never use it. Brian usually sang each of the vocal parts into the earphones of all of them but ML and, I think, Al Jardine during recordings. Many of the tracks include almost all Brian’s vocals and very few of the Boys.

No, we don't know this... because it's not true.

Well, there's the "Holidays" session Dennis drummed on, and Brian never used it. angel
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« Reply #394 on: January 24, 2015, 07:02:56 AM »

Just like when you've liked a band your whole life and then someone comes along and starts liking them too, and it's just soooo annnoying, right?  Cos you discovered them first,  and who are they to have an opinion...  THEY WEREN"T THERE AT THE BEGINNING!  Wink

Well, I just want to say right here that............I think you're a cute little booger.  Wink

That made me laugh, out loud Smiley   (adopting it)

Is there another meaning of "booger" that I'm not aware of? Smiley
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« Reply #395 on: January 24, 2015, 07:04:35 AM »

Well, yes, "cute" (leaving the other part for others to contemplate...) is actually an understatement when it comes to Wild-Honey...I think we are all happy to have her back from a bit of a hiatus here, and not just because of her looks, either.

As for the Wrecking Crew/Dennis issue that Prosecutor Doe has referenced, I think that (again) there may be a plausible explanation for all that. Please take into account that during the major portion of the time Lorren was intensively involved with Brian, particularly 1965 and 1966, it was indeed the time frame when the Wrecking Crew became the primary "studio instrument" for Brian (and, of course, that means Hal Blaine).

Also consider that it's very possible that Brian felt several ways about this changeover, and, being an emotional guy, may well have expressed several differing points of view about it to confidantes at that time. Very likely he could have felt guilty about it, while also justifying the change as necessary because of the evolution his songs were undergoing, particularly in late 1964 through Pet Sounds. I think we can see how that would have been a matter of concern, and a topic of conversation.

The context of the times and the context of the friendship are two things that need to be taken into consideration when digesting and evaluating these reminiscences. I must admit to being a bit taken aback by Lorren's note that Dennis and Carl weren't all that bright---but I stopped to think about the 1964-66 period and remembered just how young they were then--Dennis was 19-21, Carl 17-19. Lorren would have been around 26-28 at this time, and personally I cannot think of a time in life (17-27) that makes more difference in terms of becoming aware of the world and harnessing one's mind and talents in response. It wouldn't be until 1968 for Dennis to write songs, though we can see him becoming more interested in the piano in the photos in Bill Yerkes' great volume about the '66 tours. Carl would soon evolve into the band's musical leader, but there were only inkling of that in this time frame and it makes sense (to me at least) that these signals simply may not have sufficiently manifested themselves.

Remember that Lorren's world was the one thet Brian went to in order for a respite from the Beach Boys, as he sought other forms of life experience. While some (not D.A. Doe!!)  have the urge to disparage some of those activities (cough-DRUGS-cough), this was the zeitgeist and it's clear that no one was going to keep Brian Wilson down on the farm (you can complete the rest of lyric on your own...)

It's possible that Brian actually magnified his fears about the band's ability to cope with the changes. But that there was a jealous, possessive cast to this tug of war is clearly the case (documented dozens of times over by just about everyone who's written about the band), and the push-pull there was nothing more or less than a maelstrom. I can think of no better illustration of that than in the great photo back in the "official" photo thread (I hope someone with skills at reposting it will do so here; I'm afraid it's beyond my skill set at this point...) where Brian and Mike are on either side of Phil Spector at one of his sessions. One only needs to look at the expression on Mike's face to grasp the "territorial" undercurrents swirling around at the time. And if you think about it, it makes perfect sense--many vested interests, many competing impulses. That is what happens when one is at the center of the "frenzy of renown."
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« Reply #396 on: January 24, 2015, 07:24:21 AM »

Well, yes, "cute" (leaving the other part for others to contemplate...) is actually an understatement when it comes to Wild-Honey...I think we are all happy to have her back from a bit of a hiatus here, and not just because of her looks, either.


Thanks Don,  that made me beam with happiness. I've had a tough time lately and I'm happy to be back here too Smiley
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« Reply #397 on: January 24, 2015, 07:39:48 AM »

AGD: As I'm just about to slip into bed, it occurred to me that Audree had plenty of reason to lie about the deafness issue. If she blamed Murry for it, he would have hit the ceiling. Audree was classically passive, and we all know how dangerous Murry was. If what Brian told me was not true, why would he lie to me? What would be the advantage to him? He trusted me. I was the last person he would lie to. Our relationship was built on truth-telling. The whole point is that he could tell me things that he couldn't tell anyone else around him. He was isolated...
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« Reply #398 on: January 24, 2015, 07:49:09 AM »

Quote from: Lorren Daro
Another thing, several of my musician friends have commented that VDP’s sense of melody is deficient. They think that contributed to the problem, as well. VDP;s genius is with words, after all. Also, am I wrong that they collaborated on ‘Sail On Sailor’, too? Can you inform me about that?
They collaborated on "Sail On Sailor". Other people here are probably better with the details on that.

As for VDP's melodic sense, I'd say he composes as he talks. Dense and breezily overflowing with ideas. I like it, but it's not like what you hear on pop radio.
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Tricycle Rider
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« Reply #399 on: January 24, 2015, 09:27:17 AM »

Notice how all this is slowing down? I’m not the new novelty any more. It’s okay. Glad to have had this experience. Some very fine people here…

I don't know about anyone else, but I wanted to wait until it got a little less intense so you wouldn't feel so overwhelmed!

I'd like to hear about your experiences with Danny Hutton. He seems like a sincere and interesting guy.
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Some of our forum members suffer from an acute form of cynicism resulting in a complete lack of patience and manners in the face of anything joyful or optimistic. Try to humor them as best you can for the time being, and one day, with your help, we will find a cure for this devastating disease. This has been a public service announcement.
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