Was Dennis in the Wrong Group?

[clack]

If not the Beach Boys, who? I mean, what other mid-60's SoCal bands could he have wound up in?

The only one I can think of offhand would be the Byrds. After all, they chose non-drummer Michael Clarke because he had long hair ( a rarity in July '64). If Dennis was at the right party playing bongos, with Rolling Stone-long hair, maybe he might have become a Byrd. However, would being a Byrds drummer given him more room to grow as a singer/writer/arranger/producer than did the Beach Boys? Unlikey.

[retrokid67]

Well in the 70s I think he was.  They needed his songs more than they realized.  I bet WIBNTLA wouldn't have been shelved for 42 years if he had been in another group.

[Sound of Free]

Well in the 70s I think he was.  They needed his songs more than they realized.  I bet WIBNTLA wouldn't have been shelved for 42 years if he had been in another group.

Don't forget, Dennis himself was the one who decided to shelve it. If Dennis had been flexible about the album's sequencing, it would have come out in 1971.

[Niko]

They needed his songs more than they realized.  I bet WIBNTLA wouldn't have been shelved for 42 years if he had been in another group.

Dennis wanted WIBNTLA to end Surf's Up, Carl wanted the title track to close the album. Dennis became upset and pulled both WIBNTLA and 4th of July from being on the album.

Dennis held back from releasing it, not Carl or any other member of the band.

[retrokid67]

I know that, but the band even then didn't take his stuff seriously because it wasn't the commercial stuff Brian had done.

[Niko]

I know that, but the band even then didn't take his stuff seriously because it wasn't the commercial stuff Brian had done.

What do you mean by "didn't take his stuff seriously" - it's not like they kept him from putting songs on their albums or taking leads while playing live.

[retrokid67]

I know that, but the band even then didn't take his stuff seriously because it wasn't the commercial stuff Brian had done.

What do you mean by "didn't take his stuff seriously" - it's not like they kept him from putting songs on their albums or taking leads while playing live.

I mean his stuff wasn't "commercial enough" for them.  We know the reason why his songs weren't included on Surf's Up, but how about the In Concert album?  They couldn't include not one of his songs on there?

[Micha]

Ha. Was Harpo Marx in the wrong group.

No, but Zeppo Marx was.

[drbeachboy]

I know that, but the band even then didn't take his stuff seriously because it wasn't the commercial stuff Brian had done.

What do you mean by "didn't take his stuff seriously" - it's not like they kept him from putting songs on their albums or taking leads while playing live.

I mean his stuff wasn't "commercial enough" for them.  We know the reason why his songs weren't included on Surf's Up, but how about the In Concert album?  They couldn't include not one of his songs on there?

Dennis' stuff was no more or no less commercial than any other track found on the Surf's Up album. I saw The Beach Boys three times, two of those three within a year of In Concert and really don't remember Dennis doing much lead singing at those shows. More of a Co-MC with Mike and singing background vocals.

[SMiLE Brian]

Denny knew how great he was. POB proved it to the public once and for all.

[runnersdialzero]

I know that, but the band even then didn't take his stuff seriously because it wasn't the commercial stuff Brian had done.

What do you mean by "didn't take his stuff seriously" - it's not like they kept him from putting songs on their albums or taking leads while playing live.

I mean his stuff wasn't "commercial enough" for them.  We know the reason why his songs weren't included on Surf's Up, but how about the In Concert album?  They couldn't include not one of his songs on there?

Dude, what? When did anyone ever say or even allude to Dennis' songs not being "commercial enough" to be included on albums? He was a major creative force on several albums after he started writing songs.

I've only heard praise from the other guys in relation to Dennis' songs.

[retrokid67]

I know that, but the band even then didn't take his stuff seriously because it wasn't the commercial stuff Brian had done.

What do you mean by "didn't take his stuff seriously" - it's not like they kept him from putting songs on their albums or taking leads while playing live.

I mean his stuff wasn't "commercial enough" for them.  We know the reason why his songs weren't included on Surf's Up, but how about the In Concert album?  They couldn't include not one of his songs on there?

Dude, what? When did anyone ever say or even allude to Dennis' songs not being "commercial enough" to be included on albums? He was a major creative force on several albums after he started writing songs.

I've only heard praise from the other guys in relation to Dennis' songs.

Um, I've heard and read that many times before...a couple of them threatened to kick him out of the group if he went and did a solo tour.  I know his health and bad habits (and finances) prevented it, but I bet it had more to do with jealousy than anything.  And another thing I don't get is why he was stuck singing YASB all the time when he had many great songs on POB.  River Song had been performed before with Blondie so why couldn't he sing it (at least during '77 or '78)?

[runnersdialzero]

I know that, but the band even then didn't take his stuff seriously because it wasn't the commercial stuff Brian had done.

What do you mean by "didn't take his stuff seriously" - it's not like they kept him from putting songs on their albums or taking leads while playing live.

I mean his stuff wasn't "commercial enough" for them.  We know the reason why his songs weren't included on Surf's Up, but how about the In Concert album?  They couldn't include not one of his songs on there?

Dude, what? When did anyone ever say or even allude to Dennis' songs not being "commercial enough" to be included on albums? He was a major creative force on several albums after he started writing songs.

I've only heard praise from the other guys in relation to Dennis' songs.

Um, I've heard and read that many times before...a couple of them threatened to kick him out of the group if he went and did a solo tour.  I know his health and bad habits (and finances) prevented it, but I bet it had more to do with jealousy than anything.  And another thing I don't get is why he was stuck singing YASB all the time when he had many great songs on POB.  River Song had been performed before with Blondie so why couldn't he sing it (at least during '77 or '78)?

Threatening to kick him out of the Beach Boys if he did a solo tour was a dick move, but it has nothing to do with his songs not being "commercial enough." Also, did you ever think that maybe he WANTED to sing "You Are So Beautiful" and wasn't just "stuck" doing so? You're inventing things and using them against the rest of the band.

[retrokid67]

I know that, but the band even then didn't take his stuff seriously because it wasn't the commercial stuff Brian had done.

What do you mean by "didn't take his stuff seriously" - it's not like they kept him from putting songs on their albums or taking leads while playing live.

I mean his stuff wasn't "commercial enough" for them.  We know the reason why his songs weren't included on Surf's Up, but how about the In Concert album?  They couldn't include not one of his songs on there?

Dude, what? When did anyone ever say or even allude to Dennis' songs not being "commercial enough" to be included on albums? He was a major creative force on several albums after he started writing songs.

I've only heard praise from the other guys in relation to Dennis' songs.

Um, I've heard and read that many times before...a couple of them threatened to kick him out of the group if he went and did a solo tour.  I know his health and bad habits (and finances) prevented it, but I bet it had more to do with jealousy than anything.  And another thing I don't get is why he was stuck singing YASB all the time when he had many great songs on POB.  River Song had been performed before with Blondie so why couldn't he sing it (at least during '77 or '78)?

Threatening to kick him out of the Beach Boys if he did a solo tour was a dick move, but it has nothing to do with his songs not being "commercial enough." Also, did you ever think that maybe he WANTED to sing "You Are So Beautiful" and wasn't just "stuck" doing so? You're inventing things and using them against the rest of the band.

I used "commercial enough" because I remember either reading that or someone saying it and it stuck out in my mind.  And i'm not inventing things, i just find it STRANGE that he had the most successful BB related album during that period and poured his heart out on all of those songs but none of those songs were included in the setlist.  And it wasn't the whole band making dick moves.  He and Carl were outnumbered in group votes many times and Brian was manipulated into doing whatever Mike Love and company said.

YASB is a great song but back then, nobody knew that was actually one of his songs.  Joe Cocker is the one who made it famous so to them he was singing a Joe Cocker song, not a Denny Wilson song.

[Lee Marshall]

I'm still not so sure that "the rest of the Band" took Denny all that seriously Runners.  Brian did.  He KNEW.  Meanwhile the other guys were all too often starving for songs for the 'next' album.  I just sometimes think they only took Denny's materials begrudgingly because they felt that they HAD to/that they had no choice...that they still looked at Denny as the 'Phuck-up' and because of that they couldn't HEAR the forest for the life-long trees which had built up the negativity dating back to childhood.

Why else would Denny have held his music back and felt that he had to go solo?  It wasn't a power trip.  River Song?  Outstanding.  Maybe the best thing available between Holland and TWthe man in the skyMTR.

[retrokid67]

I'm still not so sure that "the rest of the Band" took Denny all that seriously Runners.  Brian did.  He KNEW.  Meanwhile the other guys were all too often starving for songs for the 'next' album.  I just sometimes think they only took Denny's materials begrudgingly because they felt that they HAD to/that they had no choice...that they still looked at Denny as the 'Phuck-up' and because of that they couldn't HEAR the forest for the life-long trees which had built up the negativity dating back to childhood.

Why else would Denny have held his music back and felt that he had to go solo?  It wasn't a power trip.  River Song?  Outstanding.  Maybe the best thing available between Holland and TWthe man in the skyMTR.

Thank you!

[runnersdialzero]

I've decided. I want the baby to be a cinnamon roll.

[runnersdialzero]

I'm still not so sure that "the rest of the Band" took Denny all that seriously Runners.  Brian did.  He KNEW. 

Brian is the only Beach Boys that appears absolutely nowhere on Dennis' album.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think that past a certain point in the band's history/evolution, that certain members were in the wrong group. I think that if you remove one of either Dennis, Mike, or Brian from the Beach Boys at a point when the musical differences/direction become too great, that if those people had other projects/outlets that they could legitimately find fulfillment in, that everyone would have been happier ultimately. I don't see how the groupings of Dennis and Mike, or Mike and Brian could happily and emotionally healthily coexist in the band past the early 70s and mid-to-late 60s, respectively. IMHO.

[metal flake paint]

I'm still not so sure that "the rest of the Band" took Denny all that seriously Runners.  Brian did.  He KNEW. 

Brian is the only Beach Boys that appears absolutely nowhere on Dennis' album.

What was Al's involvement?

[Cyncie]

The Beach Boys are what they are, and Dennis was a Beach Boy. I don't see him as a victim of the group in any way.  Sure, there were conflicts, but he certainly wasn't the only one dealing with the band's growing pains.

Was Brian in the wrong group after Smile? He was going in a different creative direction, surely. He had a breakdown because of the pressure. You might even say Brian had enough of the group and effectively withdrew, leaving the creative hole that Dennis and the others tried to fill. But, to say Brian was in the wrong group implies interchangeability. No other group was the Beach Boys. For better or worse, they were, and still are,  Brian's band.  And, he knows it. His current backing band said that, during C50, Brian would often stop to listen, and frequently would say, "Hey! That's my boys!" But, Brian has been around long enough to heal from the conflict and hurt and gain some perspective. Unfortunately, Dennis didn't make it that far.

I also don't see Dennis as a victim in the solo career vs. band conflict. Very few performers are given the opportunity to stay with their band AND have a separate solo career. Phil Collins made it work, but a lot of others have been refused the option to  try it.  Usually, once a singer starts talking about a solo career, the band gig is over.  Understandably so, since a band is a full time job and a solo career can create conflict of interest. Given the fact that Dennis was often not turning up for concerts as it was, I can see why the band didn't want his attention split any further.

Ideally, Brother Records would have served its intended purpose and given everyone a means for personal projects.  Then, both Brian and Dennis could have explored those ideas that didn't quite fit with the band.  Unfortunately, the band was in panic mode and was trying to save the Titanic by rearranging the deck chairs.  In the end, no one was happy.

If Dennis felt the band was suffocating him and he was better off solo, he could have just made the break. But, he didn't. Because he was a Beach Boy. The Boys shaped the band, and in turn, the band shaped them.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

I thought that the reason that certain other band members discouraged Dennis from pursuing a solo career further was that Pacific Ocean Blue sold as well as it did to the point that it was seen as a threat to the Beach Boys' own releases, which certainly doesn't lend credence to the theory that the other band members didn't see his work as commercial.

I do think there's a good possibility that Dennis would have been better off had he walked away from The Beach Boys at that point and finished Bambu on his own, and that we might also be better off, as a completed Bambu would have almost certainly been a much better album than any of the three post-POB albums he appeared on.  Then again, there is also the possibility that he wouldn't have been able to complete that album even if he had walked, as he had quite a few personal demons beyond interactions with the other Beach Boys.  However, I do not believe for a minute that Dennis should not have been a member of the Beach Boys from the beginning.  Not only was he integral to their image and success, but his own musical skills developed in large part out of learning for his older brother.  Dennis wrote some great Beach Boys songs and Pacific Ocean Blue is a great album, and both his Beach Boys and solo songs have a uniquely Dennis-sound to them, so I don't want to take any credit away from him.  But I do think that that specific Dennis sound wouldn't have developed if he hadn't been a member of the Beach Boys.

[kookadams]

I guess that depends on whether there was another band that would have taken on a drummer  who looked cool but couldn't actually play drums. When they decided to be a band, Dennis wasn't much of a musician, yet. The talent was there, but he had never developed it.  He learned his craft on-the-job, so to speak. The Dennis who recorded POB was the product of years of learning on the go, being in The Beach Boys, and being in the studio with Brian. Dennis may have felt constrained by the band by the time POB came along, but like it or not, he was also a product of it.

That goes for all of them. Brian needed the boys. They needed him and each other.  Change anything, and you don't have the Beach Boys, and without the Beach Boys, none of this would have happened for any of them.

dennis was WAY better drummer than ringo.

[Kurosawa]

Dennis, I think, clearly suggested that HE felt he was in the wrong band.  And I think he did it a number of times.  And I also think it may well have been his own 'band-mates' who considered him to be the "dumb, blond, surfer".

Was it the substance abuse which caused his behavioral problems?  Likely.  But what caused the substance abuse?  Could be a number of different things.  Murry for starters.  Denny was a rebel from before he started throwing garbage and stuff on the neighbour's lawn across the street.  Welcome to the neighbourhood David Marks.  Being disrespected by his own band-mates must have been a real kick in the nuts...which they delivered over and over.  While Dennis remained closer to Brian...he clearly had little respect for his cousin.  For Carl and the others?  I don't know.

Denny, as far as I'm concerned, was musically gifted...and next to Brian, as things evolved...the MOST talented Beach Boy in the group.  Yet he couldn't get his songs included on albums?  [at least not in the numbers deserving of the actual tuneage]  Why?  Because he was just Denny...the dumb, blond surfer?  Then the 'Boy's do up the 'Love You' album and Denny, at the very, VERY least, equals it in terms of success, sales, critical acclaim and content with Pacific Ocean Blue.  None of THAT was good enough for the Beach Boys?

By that point Denny was in a downward spiral that would only get worse and worse.  He held his best stuff back from the group...saving it for his solo project[ s ]...like the upcoming Bamboo album.  Denny began to miss shows...whether he was physically there and chose not to participate/couldn't participate or whether he didn't even bother to show up in the alotted town.  His physical appearance and generally healthy 'look' slowly dissipated.  He was only 39 when he passed.  He looked like he was closer to 59.

I'd say that Dennis Wilson was in the wrong group...for the ultimate good of Dennis Wilson...from around Surf's Up...on.  I think, among other things, that being a Beach Boy...killed him.

What was it Dennis said about Pacific Ocean Blue? "Nobody listened to it...not even my brothers." Even if that wasn't exactly true, it's how he felt. Of course he never would have became the writer be turned into without learning from Brian, but still, he never really got himself together musically or personally. He made the one great album, he had a lot of great tracks on BB albums, but Denny never realized his potential, and died before he had a chance. I don't know that anyone could have controlled him enough to keep him focused, but if someone could have, then he should have quit the band around the time POB came out and went solo.

It's actually amazing Dennis lived as long as he did.  By 1981 he already looked like he could have dropped dead any minute.

[bluesno1fann]

I don't think anyone thinks of Dennis as "the dumb blonde surfer boy."

At least not these days. But back in the 60's...

It might be easy to form this kind of opinion about Dennis because of how the music he made appeared to be regarded by the rest of the group...but he got a lot of his songs onto Beach Boys albums (Sunflower has four!), even if just as many stayed unreleased, unrecorded or put out without much publicity.

BUT. He was clearly the most appealing to the ladies, he had a great voice with a decent number of leads early on AND was integral in both founding and defining The Beach Boys image into what they became famous for.

From my perspective, most real music fans see Dennis as he was - a great artist.

That is true, but much of the praise for Dennis seems to have come in the last decade or so. As said by Jon Stebbins:

Wow I guess things have really cycled a 180 if you think about it. It wasn't too long ago...15 years or less...that Dennis was routinely labeled as the LEAST talented of the Beach Boys. I know it seems ridiculous to many of us now, but a little while back even solid Beach Boys fans and some "historians and authors" tried to tell us that Dennis was a good looking guy with nothing to back it up. They said he didn't sing much on the records (I know, did they ever really listen to a Beach Boys blend?)...they said he never played drums on the records (so stupid and untrue)...they even wrote in some cases that POB had no impact in it's time...geez buy a back issue of Rolling Stone or Creem. Anyway...he became the poster child for "most underrated Beach Boy" by a whole lot of people who started paying attention. Now...in 2013 we got a guy telling us he's "Insanely Overrated"...I got a good laugh out of that one.

Dennis has been vindicated by history. Unfortunately, he didn't live to see it. Very bittersweet.