Mike and Bruce Tour 2015

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

I was trolling and baiting "Shark".  I sacrificed myself as bait.

-good one, Mikie, but I'd prefer to see you trolling than be arrogant, condescending, dismissive, unfeeling and FLAT OUT RUDE and ABUSIVE. No one should have to put up with that kind of behavior IMHO.

[Mikie]

Very true, Sir.  Been following this thread for awhile and remembering what Rodney King said. 

And as the late great Carl Wilson once exclaimed:

It's about time we get together and be up front and love one another - brothers sisters everybody - we better start to help each other now. We need it now!

[Shark]

To answer Cam's question, the management of the performer or their PR staff will supply us with images, etc. for advertising.  I don't believe we have ever supplied a "bio" of a performer anywhere on our website or to the press to advertise a show so I can only speak from what I know first-hand.  For instance, you may remember the "commercial" for the C50 tour that showed a lot of the "lost" Good Vibrations recording video along with other montages through the years.  We were supplied with that to advertise the show.  For this year's Mike and Bruce show we had received the latest band photo- inclusion of JF and no Christian Love.  We just booked them w/America for the spring.  I haven't seen a rider or any other media come through yet for the show but we probably won't put it on sale for another month or so anyway. 

I can't speak for other venues, promoters, etc. on what they use to advertise shows.  We promote our own shows so we don't deal with bringing in outside promoters.  We book the acts ourselves and promote the shows ourselves.  We get our promo materials from the artists' management or tour management.

[Jim V.]

Who's "Shark"? 

According to Cam, someone with "solid info".

Or someone who must be a fraud and imposter because you don`t like what they are saying?

I haven't a problem with Shark at all. Maybe he's for real. I don't know either way.

I just find it funny that Cam doesn't like to believe ANYTHING unless it's been totally vetted, but then some person pops up here posting as "Shark" and all of the sudden, we have "solid info". It's almost like Cam likes to act like he gives a fair shake to the known facts, but in reality, he picks and chooses just like the rest of us.

[Mikie]

I haven't a problem with Shark at all. Maybe he's for real. I don't know either way.

But what if he's a lone Shark? Would you see him differently then?

[lee]

I personally have no reason to not believe Shark. All they've said is that the "rider (or parts of different riders) on that site is definitely not a rider being used by Mike and Bruce post 2007". I'm glad that someone had that tidbit of information and shared it. It's not like Shark is offering up "solid info" on a new Beach Boys album in the works or an upcoming BW tour.

I just bought that 1990 rider off of ebay for $10 just because I thought it would be fun to flip through. Clearly, you don't need to be a insider with direct contacts to obtain this kind of info.  

[wantsomecorn]

I haven't a problem with Shark at all. Maybe he's for real. I don't know either way.

But what if he's a lone Shark? Would you see him differently then?

You know, the shark from "Jaws" was named Bruce...

oh, god, I think Mr. "Iwritethesongsgrammy1976@aol.com" himself has infiltrated the forum!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I personally have no reason to not believe Shark. All they've said is that the "rider (or parts of different riders) on that site is definitely not a rider being used by Mike and Bruce post 2007". I'm glad that someone had that tidbit of information and shared it. It's not like Shark is offering up "solid info" on a new Beach Boys album in the works or an upcoming BW tour.

I just bought that 1990 rider off of ebay for $10 just because I thought it would be fun to flip through. Clearly, you don't need to be a insider with direct contacts to obtain this kind of info. 

I was trying to get that across earlier.  Not necessarily that it was old like pre-1998, but that this one was at least five years old, because again to my knowledge none of the current members dip, making it unnecessary to be included in a rider.

[Cam Mott]

Who's "Shark"? 

According to Cam, someone with "solid info".

Or someone who must be a fraud and imposter because you don`t like what they are saying?

I haven't a problem with Shark at all. Maybe he's for real. I don't know either way.

I just find it funny that Cam doesn't like to believe ANYTHING unless it's been totally vetted, but then some person pops up here posting as "Shark" and all of the sudden, we have "solid info". It's almost like Cam likes to act like he gives a fair shake to the known facts, but in reality, he picks and chooses just like the rest of us.

OMG, it's like you are in my head. That is solid info and I have no reason to doubt you.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Candygram.

[Jim V.]

Who's "Shark"? 

According to Cam, someone with "solid info".

Or someone who must be a fraud and imposter because you don`t like what they are saying?

I haven't a problem with Shark at all. Maybe he's for real. I don't know either way.

I just find it funny that Cam doesn't like to believe ANYTHING unless it's been totally vetted, but then some person pops up here posting as "Shark" and all of the sudden, we have "solid info". It's almost like Cam likes to act like he gives a fair shake to the known facts, but in reality, he picks and chooses just like the rest of us.

OMG, it's like you are in my head. That is solid info and I have no reason to doubt you.

I must be in your head. You've managed to go like three posts without absolving Mike of responsibility for all the bad things related to him. You better get back on that bud!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Are we really doing this again?

[Lee Marshall]

You know Billy...when the moderators HAVE to spend this much time in one thread...and for days on end no less...it's pretty easy to figure out that the thread, not unlike the one locked down just before it's twin brother rose from the ashes, is flawed and not worthy of any more oxygen.

It's a thankless task you folks perform...but you're trying way too hard with this one.  Put it down.  It's a dying dog.

[Jim V.]

Now as for why SmileBrian wasn't suspended for baiting (which to be perfectly frank, he was), well he came very close to it. I normally wouldn't bring this up on the board, but Andrew's post above requires me to be very clear about this. Neither he nor anybody else on the board is allowed to troll and derail threads while others get punished for it.

I'm hoping you're referring to Smile Brian there and not me. I've been a lot of things here and elsewhere - arrogant, condescending, dismissive, unfeeling and flat out rude and abusive (and proud of none of it) - but I've never trolled.

As for what constitutes fair, acceptable criticism...

"Mike seems to sometimes take too much credit" - acceptable.

"Mike is a f****** s********" - unacceptable and if anyone needs to have that difference explained, then, well...

I post here because I love this band and this music like no other: both have materially affected the direction of my life. I've been places I wouldn't have otherwise, made lasting friends and had relationships I wouldn't have otherwise. I've got to meet the people responsible for this and personally thank them. Now, they know me, and sometimes ask me for such little help as I can offer as regards their own history (as Brian would have it, that's a real trip !). Even before I loved the band, I had a hugely overdeveloped accuracy gene, and The Beach Boys only made it worse. That I care to have their history and music accurately documented is why I (and others such as Stebbins) kept nagging tedesco about his website, and why I'll give Carol Kaye a hard time for her lies any chance I get (she does the same to me). I enjoy, for the most part, the exchanges here but when two or three posters routinely cause any given thread to degenerate into a Mike Love bitchfest, then I have to wonder. yes, in the last couple of years I've moved my position on him more than somewhat and yes, during this time he and his wife have extended their hand to me and improved my access, which I admit is a two-edged sword, and in some eyes the mark of a turncoat. Initially, like most here, I swallowed the Leaf Line on Mike from 1978, hook, line & sinker, and know something ? He has said and done some things that make you go "hmmm" (and next time we meet, I'm going to ask about the HOF speech, promise)... but so have the rest of the band. I don't pretend Mike is my friend, any more that I think David or Bruce are, but I've got to know him a little since 2012, and know something (again) ? He's just a man. He has feelings. The person I see, albeit briefly, in "private" isn't the brash front-man. And yes, I know that around the fans he's on. Might be many things, but I'm not dumb. I edged towards the center after the frankly nonsensical reporting over the end of C50, when anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together should have seen that no-one fired anyone else. The true story of what happened in June-September 2012 needs to be told, if only to show there was wrong on both sides. But I digress. I'm not a Brian-hater. I don't think a whole bunch of his organization, and haven't since, oh, about 1998, but as Dennis pointed out in 1976, he IS The Beach Boys. No-one else comes close, even Dennis at his very best, and certainly not Mike (know something, pt.3 ? he knows that too), Alan, Bruce, Carl or David. Brian's a once-in-a-lifetime event, a true genius, but there's only one Brian in the BB: without the others, I don't doubt he'd have found an expression and outlet for his amazing music, but we'd have had to manage without the likes of "California Girls", "WIBN" and "GV". Without The Beach Boys, there would have been no TLOS, to my mind his crowning solo achievement. But I digress, again. Currently, this place is like a great party at which the kids have been allowed to to stay up for, and they're bored, and running around, making noise, screaming "look at meeeeeeeeee" and frankly being a royal pain, and recent posts in this thread have shown I'm not the only one of this opinion. Time to get the house in order, the kids in bed and the guests out the door.

Also time to remember that the neighbors are watching...

I think that this was an honest, interesting post.

First off Andrew, I think you have been an invaluable part of The Beach Boys fan community for quite a while now. I've been part of it for maybe 11 or so years, and honestly I don't remember a time on this forum (or The Smile Shop) where you weren't extremely helpful in figuring out the truth about what's gone on through the history of the group.

However, you do seem to have become a bit starry-eyed because of your recent induction into Club Kokomo. I mean, I find it interesting that the "Mike haters" like OSD and SMiLE Brian are the proverbial annoying kids at the party, but Mike apologists like Cam Mott and Pinder (who do nothing but try to advance the Kokomonian* agenda) are considered amongst the grown-ups? Just seems like if you were bothered by the one-sidedness of one side, you'd be just as annoyed by the same ridiculousness of the other side. It seems to me that the Mike attacks seem to bother you more than the attacks on Brian and Melinda because you're somewhat closer to the Mike world these days, whereas on the other hand, you're not exactly a huge fan of the former Miss Ledbetter. So yeah, now of course you'd point out that Mike has feelings but you don't seem to give a damn about Melinda's when trashing her.

Personally, I think some of the attacks on Mike are ridiculous. However, a lot of the time he just brings it on himself by being so damn insecure. He always seems to have this need to puff his chest out and tell us how great he is. And why? Any of us with a brain cell knows he sang some of the most popular, classic leads in music history. We know that he wrote the lyrics to classics like "I Get Around" and "California Girls" and "Good Vibrations". We also know he's co-written some really tender, artistic stuff like "Please Let Me Wonder", "Aren't You Glad" and "All This Is That". And that's only scratching the surface. The dude is a legend, and if he stopped trying to remind us that "Kokomo" was a huge hit and that it him, yes ladies and gentleman, him who co-wrote it without any help from Cousin Brian, many of us would probably be much more understanding of Mike's thoughts on The Beach Boys and his place in the group.

I mean, to put it in perspective, it would be like George Harrison bragging about how successful "Got My Mind Set On You", "When We Was Fab" and the Cloud Nine album was in 1987, while constantly pointing out how Paul McCartney hadn't had a hit like that in a while. I mean, I'm sure George had a bit of resentment built up due to being slighted next to Lennon and McCartney, just as Mike does when he's slighted next to Brian. However, it seems that whereas George decided to let his accomplishments speak for themselves, Mike needs to point out again and again and again how he did "Kokomo", how he didn't do drugs, how he took the guitar out of McCartney's hands and played him "Back in the U.S.S.R.", how he kept touring and flying The Beach Boys flag while Cousin Brian was being lazy, etc.

It all just reeks of a sad, insecure man. And I don't say this to make fun. I think it's a shame. I don't think he should be insecure. He's done a lot of great sh*t, and hopefully will do some more. I don't doubt that Mike's a good family man who wants to provide for his wife and daughter and everybody. I'm sure he does love "Cousin Brian". But I just think he's either tone deaf to how pathetic the bragging and everything looks. I will say one thing though. I was going to complain how he tackily wears a "Beach Boys" hat everywhere even though he's the lead singer. Then I thought about it. I think since he came from next to nothing and he has that middle-American, conservative, business-owner vibe, he just likes wearing the hat showing the logo of his business (The Beach Boys) just as the guy down the street who owns his own pool cleaning company likes wearing his polo shirt with his companies logo on it. For pride. They are proud of their work and they wanna show it off. The only difference is that in rock 'n roll you don't see stuff like that. I doubt you're gonna catch Pete Townshend with a Who logo on his sports coat or Keith Richards sporting a shirt with a pair of the Stones lips on it. They're "too cool" for that. Mike isn't. For better or worse.

Regardless, I for one am looking forward to hearing Mike's side of things in his book. I truly hope he tones down the braggadocios stuff and focuses on his story. And more importantly, I hope he releases some more damn music. I personally really like a bit of his solo music, and I think it's a shame that most of the stuff recorded for First Love and Unleash the Love is unreleased. Not to mention the fact that the Celebration stuff and Looking Back With Love isn't on available on CD or digitally. Truly a shame that he hasn't had either the interest or confidence in getting this stuff out there.



*Did I make up "Kokomonian"? Maybe not. I don't know.

[guitarfool2002]

Shark is a legitimate poster who has previously contributed some terrific firsthand, eyewitness information about what he saw during the C50 tour while it was "breaking news", including interesting bits about song selection and other interactions.

The Smoking Gun pages in question are 1&2, we know they could not have come from prior to 1998 (no need arguing that anymore), and if we go on what has been posted recently, they most likely date from 1999-2007. And that was the point, they date from when the current touring and promotions operation more or less was handling the tours.

We also learn that the band's PR or touring/management staff supplies the venue with materials to use in advertising the show, in this case, so if a wrong photo is used or specific language appears, if it's this venue...they had nothing to do with it and are publishing what they were sent by management. And if there are mistakes or names/titles that are in question, the material came from management. Again, at least in this case.

That seems to be the case. 

[guitarfool2002]

Why are we such dicks to each other?

Exactly. I have a shot at posting some of my thoughts on all this, and want to cover just a few things, but first I'd like to address this:

As mentioned previously, this thread was clearly started as an attempt at trolling and it has succeeded spectacularly.

I think Billy does a fine job as a moderator with little assistance but I think lessons can be learnt from this. The thread could have been closed or, at the very least. actions should have been taken to keep it in order.

First of all, I have a thick skin and stuff like this rolls off rather easily. Others may not.

So the question is, why would you post a cheap shot like that inside of a discussion which saw a number of posters calling for civility, respect, less personal attacks, and a less cynical or negative tone overall on the board? What was the purpose of posting a flippant remark like that, was there a reaction from me or from anyone else you had hoped to get in return? Was it to start something up, get someone angry enough to start engaging a pissing match again?

I honestly don't know, but I'm curious. I'm doing this to point out something which will be addressed later. The remark itself means nothing to me, but again in the context of these calls for less of the personal attacks and more of the civility, why include this in a reply?

Feel free to contact anyone off the board. Seriously. If something is done by the mods or otherwise that upsets you, or that you have a question about or an issue with, drop a line.

I called this out to use as an example, I don't care who said it or who specifically it was targeted to, but at some point the tendency to post a cheap shot like this may be what everyone is sick and tired of seeing in general, particularly between posters  who are known to each other in this "community".

And also, consider if someone who read this and felt it was a personal attack, if some of the suggestions being made about deleting posts, censoring posts, responding a certain way to personal attacks in general...the poster here would be subject to a warning or a ban, right?

That's why I cannot see enforcing anything close to the standard which it seems some are advocating. Someone's definition of a personal attack might be different than another, so who decides how much someone should or should not take a flippant remark to heart versus ignoring it?

[Mikie]

Shark is a legitimate poster who has previously contributed some terrific firsthand, eyewitness information about what he saw during the C50 tour while it was "breaking news", including interesting bits about song selection and other interactions.

I can truthfully say that most of us have never heard of him. Could be new to the board or "Shark" is an alternate alias. Can't remember him contributing anything during the year 2012, much less during the C50, at least under Justin's threads. So without formal introductions and with only 16 posts under his belt, it's no wonder his credibility is questioned and previous contributions all but forgotten.

[Mikie]

The Smoking Gun pages in question are 1&2, we know they could not have come from prior to 1998 (no need arguing that anymore), and if we go on what has been posted recently, they most likely date from 1999-2007. And that was the point, they date from when the current touring and promotions operation more or less was handling the tours.

Those riders on the Smoking Gun site have been there forever and two days. I remember they were discussed a long time ago, if not on this board or at least one other. Anybody with half a brain should have known they're way outdated now.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Now as for why SmileBrian wasn't suspended for baiting (which to be perfectly frank, he was), well he came very close to it. I normally wouldn't bring this up on the board, but Andrew's post above requires me to be very clear about this. Neither he nor anybody else on the board is allowed to troll and derail threads while others get punished for it.

I'm hoping you're referring to Smile Brian there and not me. I've been a lot of things here and elsewhere - arrogant, condescending, dismissive, unfeeling and flat out rude and abusive (and proud of none of it) - but I've never trolled.

As for what constitutes fair, acceptable criticism...

"Mike seems to sometimes take too much credit" - acceptable.

"Mike is a f****** s********" - unacceptable and if anyone needs to have that difference explained, then, well...

I post here because I love this band and this music like no other: both have materially affected the direction of my life. I've been places I wouldn't have otherwise, made lasting friends and had relationships I wouldn't have otherwise. I've got to meet the people responsible for this and personally thank them. Now, they know me, and sometimes ask me for such little help as I can offer as regards their own history (as Brian would have it, that's a real trip !). Even before I loved the band, I had a hugely overdeveloped accuracy gene, and The Beach Boys only made it worse. That I care to have their history and music accurately documented is why I (and others such as Stebbins) kept nagging tedesco about his website, and why I'll give Carol Kaye a hard time for her lies any chance I get (she does the same to me). I enjoy, for the most part, the exchanges here but when two or three posters routinely cause any given thread to degenerate into a Mike Love bitchfest, then I have to wonder. yes, in the last couple of years I've moved my position on him more than somewhat and yes, during this time he and his wife have extended their hand to me and improved my access, which I admit is a two-edged sword, and in some eyes the mark of a turncoat. Initially, like most here, I swallowed the Leaf Line on Mike from 1978, hook, line & sinker, and know something ? He has said and done some things that make you go "hmmm" (and next time we meet, I'm going to ask about the HOF speech, promise)... but so have the rest of the band. I don't pretend Mike is my friend, any more that I think David or Bruce are, but I've got to know him a little since 2012, and know something (again) ? He's just a man. He has feelings. The person I see, albeit briefly, in "private" isn't the brash front-man. And yes, I know that around the fans he's on. Might be many things, but I'm not dumb. I edged towards the center after the frankly nonsensical reporting over the end of C50, when anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together should have seen that no-one fired anyone else. The true story of what happened in June-September 2012 needs to be told, if only to show there was wrong on both sides. But I digress. I'm not a Brian-hater. I don't think a whole bunch of his organization, and haven't since, oh, about 1998, but as Dennis pointed out in 1976, he IS The Beach Boys. No-one else comes close, even Dennis at his very best, and certainly not Mike (know something, pt.3 ? he knows that too), Alan, Bruce, Carl or David. Brian's a once-in-a-lifetime event, a true genius, but there's only one Brian in the BB: without the others, I don't doubt he'd have found an expression and outlet for his amazing music, but we'd have had to manage without the likes of "California Girls", "WIBN" and "GV". Without The Beach Boys, there would have been no TLOS, to my mind his crowning solo achievement. But I digress, again. Currently, this place is like a great party at which the kids have been allowed to to stay up for, and they're bored, and running around, making noise, screaming "look at meeeeeeeeee" and frankly being a royal pain, and recent posts in this thread have shown I'm not the only one of this opinion. Time to get the house in order, the kids in bed and the guests out the door.

Also time to remember that the neighbors are watching...

I think that this was an honest, interesting post.

First off Andrew, I think you have been an invaluable part of The Beach Boys fan community for quite a while now. I've been part of it for maybe 11 or so years, and honestly I don't remember a time on this forum (or The Smile Shop) where you weren't extremely helpful in figuring out the truth about what's gone on through the history of the group.

However, you do seem to have become a bit starry-eyed because of your recent induction into Club Kokomo. I mean, I find it interesting that the "Mike haters" like OSD and SMiLE Brian are the proverbial annoying kids at the party, but Mike apologists like Cam Mott and Pinder (who do nothing but try to advance the Kokomonian* agenda) are considered amongst the grown-ups? Just seems like if you were bothered by the one-sidedness of one side, you'd be just as annoyed by the same ridiculousness of the other side. It seems to me that the Mike attacks seem to bother you more than the attacks on Brian and Melinda because you're somewhat closer to the Mike world these days, whereas on the other hand, you're not exactly a huge fan of the former Miss Ledbetter. So yeah, now of course you'd point out that Mike has feelings but you don't seem to give a damn about Melinda's when trashing her.

Personally, I think some of the attacks on Mike are ridiculous. However, a lot of the time he just brings it on himself by being so damn insecure. He always seems to have this need to puff his chest out and tell us how great he is. And why? Any of us with a brain cell knows he sang some of the most popular, classic leads in music history. We know that he wrote the lyrics to classics like "I Get Around" and "California Girls" and "Good Vibrations". We also know he's co-written some really tender, artistic stuff like "Please Let Me Wonder", "Aren't You Glad" and "All This Is That". And that's only scratching the surface. The dude is a legend, and if he stopped trying to remind us that "Kokomo" was a huge hit and that it him, yes ladies and gentleman, him who co-wrote it without any help from Cousin Brian, many of us would probably be much more understanding of Mike's thoughts on The Beach Boys and his place in the group.

I mean, to put it in perspective, it would be like George Harrison bragging about how successful "Got My Mind Set On You", "When We Was Fab" and the Cloud Nine album was in 1987, while constantly pointing out how Paul McCartney hadn't had a hit like that in a while. I mean, I'm sure George had a bit of resentment built up due to being slighted next to Lennon and McCartney, just as Mike does when he's slighted next to Brian. However, it seems that whereas George decided to let his accomplishments speak for themselves, Mike needs to point out again and again and again how he did "Kokomo", how he didn't do drugs, how he took the guitar out of McCartney's hands and played him "Back in the U.S.S.R.", how he kept touring and flying The Beach Boys flag while Cousin Brian was being lazy, etc.

It all just reeks of a sad, insecure man. And I don't say this to make fun. I think it's a shame. I don't think he should be insecure. He's done a lot of great sh*t, and hopefully will do some more. I don't doubt that Mike's a good family man who wants to provide for his wife and daughter and everybody. I'm sure he does love "Cousin Brian". But I just think he's either tone deaf to how pathetic the bragging and everything looks. I will say one thing though. I was going to complain how he tackily wears a "Beach Boys" hat everywhere even though he's the lead singer. Then I thought about it. I think since he came from next to nothing and he has that middle-American, conservative, business-owner vibe, he just likes wearing the hat showing the logo of his business (The Beach Boys) just as the guy down the street who owns his own pool cleaning company likes wearing his polo shirt with his companies logo on it. For pride. They are proud of their work and they wanna show it off. The only difference is that in rock 'n roll you don't see stuff like that. I doubt you're gonna catch Pete Townshend with a Who logo on his sports coat or Keith Richards sporting a shirt with a pair of the Stones lips on it. They're "too cool" for that. Mike isn't. For better or worse.

Regardless, I for one am looking forward to hearing Mike's side of things in his book. I truly hope he tones down the braggadocios stuff and focuses on his story. And more importantly, I hope he releases some more damn music. I personally really like a bit of his solo music, and I think it's a shame that most of the stuff recorded for First Love and Unleash the Love is unreleased. Not to mention the fact that the Celebration stuff and Looking Back With Love isn't on available on CD or digitally. Truly a shame that he hasn't had either the interest or confidence in getting this stuff out there.



*Did I make up "Kokomonian"? Maybe not. I don't know.

Really good post, and a balanced honest view of things. Well said.

[guitarfool2002]

Shark is a legitimate poster who has previously contributed some terrific firsthand, eyewitness information about what he saw during the C50 tour while it was "breaking news", including interesting bits about song selection and other interactions.

I can truthfully say that most of us have never heard of him. Could be new to the board or "Shark" is an alternate alias. Can't remember him contributing anything during the year 2012, much less during the C50, at least under Justin's threads. So without formal introductions and with only 16 posts under his belt, it's no wonder his credibility is questioned and previous contributions all but forgotten.

Check the board archives, it's all there.

[guitarfool2002]

The Smoking Gun pages in question are 1&2, we know they could not have come from prior to 1998 (no need arguing that anymore), and if we go on what has been posted recently, they most likely date from 1999-2007. And that was the point, they date from when the current touring and promotions operation more or less was handling the tours.

Those riders on the Smoking Gun site have been there forever and two days. I remember they were discussed a long time ago, if not on this board or at least one other. Anybody with half a brain should have known they're way outdated now.

You must have missed the current discussions, then, because 1998-9 at the earliest those two pages which were referenced out of the 6 posted could be is still a version of the current touring arrangements, how much the actual wording changed isn't exactly known. Probably the only time this booking/contractual arrangement for a Beach Boys tour has changed since 1999 was C50 which was done by a separate company.

[Mikie]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/beach-boys-rider

This rider was discussed on message boards many years ago. Looks like Page 1 is missing for some reason. So you're suggesting, GF, that this same rider was used by The Beach Boys from 1998 through 2012 when it was changed?

[guitarfool2002]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/beach-boys-rider

This rider was discussed on message boards many years ago. Looks like Page 1 is missing for some reason. So you're suggesting, GF, that this same rider was used by The Beach Boys from 1998 through 2012 when it was changed?

I'm not saying the exact same rider was used, but the rider page specifically at the link you just posted could not have existed before 1998. I have no idea what language was changed or what was added or removed through the years, but that specific rider mentioning management needed to approve any advertising materials from the venue or the "purchaser" would stay relatively the same through the years unless something drastic was modified. It's like any terms-and-conditions fine print, most of the language doesn't change if it's the same company involved.

[Mikie]

While searching for the original date for the late 90's rider, I ran across this. Bedtime reading material. Note Stamo's guitar requirements. Look familiar to someone else's guitars? Sorry if it's been posted previously - didn't feel like wading through the arguments.....

http://www.zaphodproductions.com/about-us/the-beach-boys

[CenturyDeprived]

Now as for why SmileBrian wasn't suspended for baiting (which to be perfectly frank, he was), well he came very close to it. I normally wouldn't bring this up on the board, but Andrew's post above requires me to be very clear about this. Neither he nor anybody else on the board is allowed to troll and derail threads while others get punished for it.

I'm hoping you're referring to Smile Brian there and not me. I've been a lot of things here and elsewhere - arrogant, condescending, dismissive, unfeeling and flat out rude and abusive (and proud of none of it) - but I've never trolled.

As for what constitutes fair, acceptable criticism...

"Mike seems to sometimes take too much credit" - acceptable.

"Mike is a f****** s********" - unacceptable and if anyone needs to have that difference explained, then, well...

I post here because I love this band and this music like no other: both have materially affected the direction of my life. I've been places I wouldn't have otherwise, made lasting friends and had relationships I wouldn't have otherwise. I've got to meet the people responsible for this and personally thank them. Now, they know me, and sometimes ask me for such little help as I can offer as regards their own history (as Brian would have it, that's a real trip !). Even before I loved the band, I had a hugely overdeveloped accuracy gene, and The Beach Boys only made it worse. That I care to have their history and music accurately documented is why I (and others such as Stebbins) kept nagging tedesco about his website, and why I'll give Carol Kaye a hard time for her lies any chance I get (she does the same to me). I enjoy, for the most part, the exchanges here but when two or three posters routinely cause any given thread to degenerate into a Mike Love bitchfest, then I have to wonder. yes, in the last couple of years I've moved my position on him more than somewhat and yes, during this time he and his wife have extended their hand to me and improved my access, which I admit is a two-edged sword, and in some eyes the mark of a turncoat. Initially, like most here, I swallowed the Leaf Line on Mike from 1978, hook, line & sinker, and know something ? He has said and done some things that make you go "hmmm" (and next time we meet, I'm going to ask about the HOF speech, promise)... but so have the rest of the band. I don't pretend Mike is my friend, any more that I think David or Bruce are, but I've got to know him a little since 2012, and know something (again) ? He's just a man. He has feelings. The person I see, albeit briefly, in "private" isn't the brash front-man. And yes, I know that around the fans he's on. Might be many things, but I'm not dumb. I edged towards the center after the frankly nonsensical reporting over the end of C50, when anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together should have seen that no-one fired anyone else. The true story of what happened in June-September 2012 needs to be told, if only to show there was wrong on both sides. But I digress. I'm not a Brian-hater. I don't think a whole bunch of his organization, and haven't since, oh, about 1998, but as Dennis pointed out in 1976, he IS The Beach Boys. No-one else comes close, even Dennis at his very best, and certainly not Mike (know something, pt.3 ? he knows that too), Alan, Bruce, Carl or David. Brian's a once-in-a-lifetime event, a true genius, but there's only one Brian in the BB: without the others, I don't doubt he'd have found an expression and outlet for his amazing music, but we'd have had to manage without the likes of "California Girls", "WIBN" and "GV". Without The Beach Boys, there would have been no TLOS, to my mind his crowning solo achievement. But I digress, again. Currently, this place is like a great party at which the kids have been allowed to to stay up for, and they're bored, and running around, making noise, screaming "look at meeeeeeeeee" and frankly being a royal pain, and recent posts in this thread have shown I'm not the only one of this opinion. Time to get the house in order, the kids in bed and the guests out the door.

Also time to remember that the neighbors are watching...

I think that this was an honest, interesting post.

First off Andrew, I think you have been an invaluable part of The Beach Boys fan community for quite a while now. I've been part of it for maybe 11 or so years, and honestly I don't remember a time on this forum (or The Smile Shop) where you weren't extremely helpful in figuring out the truth about what's gone on through the history of the group.

However, you do seem to have become a bit starry-eyed because of your recent induction into Club Kokomo. I mean, I find it interesting that the "Mike haters" like OSD and SMiLE Brian are the proverbial annoying kids at the party, but Mike apologists like Cam Mott and Pinder (who do nothing but try to advance the Kokomonian* agenda) are considered amongst the grown-ups? Just seems like if you were bothered by the one-sidedness of one side, you'd be just as annoyed by the same ridiculousness of the other side. It seems to me that the Mike attacks seem to bother you more than the attacks on Brian and Melinda because you're somewhat closer to the Mike world these days, whereas on the other hand, you're not exactly a huge fan of the former Miss Ledbetter. So yeah, now of course you'd point out that Mike has feelings but you don't seem to give a damn about Melinda's when trashing her.

Personally, I think some of the attacks on Mike are ridiculous. However, a lot of the time he just brings it on himself by being so damn insecure. He always seems to have this need to puff his chest out and tell us how great he is. And why? Any of us with a brain cell knows he sang some of the most popular, classic leads in music history. We know that he wrote the lyrics to classics like "I Get Around" and "California Girls" and "Good Vibrations". We also know he's co-written some really tender, artistic stuff like "Please Let Me Wonder", "Aren't You Glad" and "All This Is That". And that's only scratching the surface. The dude is a legend, and if he stopped trying to remind us that "Kokomo" was a huge hit and that it him, yes ladies and gentleman, him who co-wrote it without any help from Cousin Brian, many of us would probably be much more understanding of Mike's thoughts on The Beach Boys and his place in the group.

I mean, to put it in perspective, it would be like George Harrison bragging about how successful "Got My Mind Set On You", "When We Was Fab" and the Cloud Nine album was in 1987, while constantly pointing out how Paul McCartney hadn't had a hit like that in a while. I mean, I'm sure George had a bit of resentment built up due to being slighted next to Lennon and McCartney, just as Mike does when he's slighted next to Brian. However, it seems that whereas George decided to let his accomplishments speak for themselves, Mike needs to point out again and again and again how he did "Kokomo", how he didn't do drugs, how he took the guitar out of McCartney's hands and played him "Back in the U.S.S.R.", how he kept touring and flying The Beach Boys flag while Cousin Brian was being lazy, etc.

It all just reeks of a sad, insecure man. And I don't say this to make fun. I think it's a shame. I don't think he should be insecure. He's done a lot of great sh*t, and hopefully will do some more. I don't doubt that Mike's a good family man who wants to provide for his wife and daughter and everybody. I'm sure he does love "Cousin Brian". But I just think he's either tone deaf to how pathetic the bragging and everything looks. I will say one thing though. I was going to complain how he tackily wears a "Beach Boys" hat everywhere even though he's the lead singer. Then I thought about it. I think since he came from next to nothing and he has that middle-American, conservative, business-owner vibe, he just likes wearing the hat showing the logo of his business (The Beach Boys) just as the guy down the street who owns his own pool cleaning company likes wearing his polo shirt with his companies logo on it. For pride. They are proud of their work and they wanna show it off. The only difference is that in rock 'n roll you don't see stuff like that. I doubt you're gonna catch Pete Townshend with a Who logo on his sports coat or Keith Richards sporting a shirt with a pair of the Stones lips on it. They're "too cool" for that. Mike isn't. For better or worse.

Regardless, I for one am looking forward to hearing Mike's side of things in his book. I truly hope he tones down the braggadocios stuff and focuses on his story. And more importantly, I hope he releases some more damn music. I personally really like a bit of his solo music, and I think it's a shame that most of the stuff recorded for First Love and Unleash the Love is unreleased. Not to mention the fact that the Celebration stuff and Looking Back With Love isn't on available on CD or digitally. Truly a shame that he hasn't had either the interest or confidence in getting this stuff out there.



*Did I make up "Kokomonian"? Maybe not. I don't know.

Really good post, and a balanced honest view of things. Well said.

Agreed. This is a really well-put post, and I think only a very, very small amount of people would think there's anything off-base (or anti-Mike in any kind of unfair, unrealistic way) in that statement. It's when incredibly balanced statements like this get refuted (and fingered as a harshly inaccurate portrayal of Mike by a handful of people on this board which admittedly, it's their right to refute if they really think it's off-base), that bickering creeps in. IMO, to call this anything but fair, balanced, and largely accurate is a stretch. Similarly, the silence of the "pro Mike" faction to when someone makes  accurate statement like this also speaks volumes, and is frustrating.