Was the songwriting better without Brian..?

[MugginsXO]

Your appeal to relativity prompted a named response.

What are you talking about?

You affirmed the difficulty of determining the objective truth of the question, which inspired me to respond directly to you. The objective truth of the question is not difficult to determine. No other quibble.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Your appeal to relativity prompted a named response.

What are you talking about?

You affirmed the difficulty of determining the objective truth of the question, which inspired me to respond directly to you. The objective truth of the question is not difficult to determine. No other quibble.

Then I didn't make myself clear because I wasn't doing that. I was affirming the difficulty about speculating objectively. In other words, I can't tell you objectively how I would react to some alternate timeline that never happened. I presume you don't feel you can either. Again, look back to the section that you were quoting -- I wasn't talking about songwriting at all. I had moved on to an altogether different question that had arisen during the course of the thread, which was whether or not Brian needed the other Beach Boys as much they needed him. This had nothing to do with songwriting. It had to do, I presume, with whether the individual talents, abilities (such as the abilities to go out and perform live), and, also, probably emotional support of Dennis, Carl, Mike, Al, and David were as crucial for Brian as his songwriting, production skills were for them.

I was responding to this question posed by Pinder: "if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys?" And my point is simply to say that we can never know for sure, just as we can't reach any objective conclusion about any speculation. Again, I can't believe that you would disagree with that so I mustn't have made myself clear.  

[MugginsXO]

Your appeal to relativity prompted a named response.

What are you talking about?

You affirmed the difficulty of determining the objective truth of the question, which inspired me to respond directly to you. The objective truth of the question is not difficult to determine. No other quibble.

Then I didn't make myself clear because I wasn't doing that. I was affirming the difficulty about speculating objectively. In other words, I can't tell you objectively how I would react to some alternate timeline that never happened. I presume you don't feel you can either.

No, I agree, as I said. You can't imagine the quality of something that definitely didn't happen.

Again, look back to the section that you were quoting -- I wasn't talking about songwriting at all. I had moved on to an altogether different question that had arisen during the course of the thread, which was whether or not Brian needed the other Beach Boys as much they needed him. This had nothing to do with songwriting. It had to do, I presume, with whether the individual talents, abilities (such as the abilities to go out and perform live), and, also, probably emotional support of Dennis, Carl, Mike, Al, and David were as crucial for Brian as his songwriting, production skills were for them.

Okay here is where the disagreement comes from. First I think emotional support in this context is altogether too vague. Emotional support in what way? Affirming that he was doing good stuff? Voting positively for a song being on an album? This is what I would almost be comfortable in saying is far closer to context -in terms of social, period, location, personal or genetic lottery ways - than it is anything to do with ascertaining the deliberate and actual artistic influence someone had on a work. That he had people who cared enough to tour or perform well in public is just not enough to put on someone as being a specific quality of theirs. Perhaps he needed someone to do that but it doesn't necessarily follow that he needed Mike, Dennis, Carl, Al and/or David Marks to do it.   

I was responding to this question posed by Pinder: "if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys?" And my point is simply to say that we can never know for sure, just as we can't reach any objective conclusion about any speculation. Again, I can't believe that you would disagree with that so I mustn't have made myself clear. 

Right we can ultimately never know in that it is physically impossible (at least in our current human experience) to play back a scenario with different people/personalities. But that is true of EVERY situation imaginable. "I couldn't have married my wife if I'd been an octopus!" and so on. What we can determine quite adequately is the real life creative/human input in the thing we can perceive. The things we perceive of The Beach Boys, from their albums to their reputation, to the positive impact that the mere whiff of a silly "Brian Is Back" marketing shot did can be objectively evaluated. In that evaluation, the overwhelming artistic effort and innovation comes from Brian Wilson. He wrote the large majority of the songs. He produced the songs. He performed on the songs.

If one can imagine a scenario that does not exist - on which the entire Smile Myth is based BTW - then the idea of Brian Wilson doing great things in the 1960s is pretty stable. Perhaps it's close to the Beach Boys, perhaps it's not. It is impossible to imagine Al Jardine suddenly becoming a major musical force in that decade. As with the rest of the band. The talent, work ethic, direction and result is apparent in every sense with Brian Wilson. It is hard to muster any certainty about the rest of the group.   

[lostbeachboy]

This thread is a complete waste of time.

And the topic of Bruce's marital status isn't a waste of time..?

[GhostyTMRS]

In that case, I'd suggest looking at what the legacy of the Beach Boys is and will be in future generations. The music released by The Beach Boys in the 1960's is simply one of the most defining bodies of work of its era, whether through hard sales numbers or the longevity and appeal of that music over 50+ years. It is very similar to The Beatles catalog from the 60's, as good and as popular as some of the individual members' solo efforts have been, will the next generations of listeners be talking about Mind Games or Venus And Mars with anything close to the way the Beatles catalog of songs from the 60's will be regarded?

It may be difficult to realize as a hard fact, but as beloved as an album like Ram might be among fans, it will never come close to the legacy of the Beatles catalog. And I'd say as much as BB's fans have an affinity for certain 70's or later releases, they will never be thought of in the same category as those 60's Capitol recordings, if we're talking about the legacy of the band.

That sums it up best. If someone's major deal in Beach Boys fandom is the 70's stuff you're going to be that proverbial tree falling in the woods. Don't get me wrong, I love that stuff too. I wish more people knew about it or cared even though IMO it's not nearly as good as what Brian accomplished in the 60's....but...I get it. I understand your frustration. As a major McCartney fan I'd love for the world to care about "Ram" like they do the Beatles catalog but they don't and they never will. I can scream about it all I want but it's never going to make a difference. The Beach Boys' 60's work is like some towering behemoth that blocks out the sun...or better yet, it's the sun itself, and we all know what The Sunrays have to say about that. 

[MugginsXO]

In that case, I'd suggest looking at what the legacy of the Beach Boys is and will be in future generations. The music released by The Beach Boys in the 1960's is simply one of the most defining bodies of work of its era, whether through hard sales numbers or the longevity and appeal of that music over 50+ years. It is very similar to The Beatles catalog from the 60's, as good and as popular as some of the individual members' solo efforts have been, will the next generations of listeners be talking about Mind Games or Venus And Mars with anything close to the way the Beatles catalog of songs from the 60's will be regarded?

It may be difficult to realize as a hard fact, but as beloved as an album like Ram might be among fans, it will never come close to the legacy of the Beatles catalog. And I'd say as much as BB's fans have an affinity for certain 70's or later releases, they will never be thought of in the same category as those 60's Capitol recordings, if we're talking about the legacy of the band.

That sums it up best. If someone's major deal in Beach Boys fandom is the 70's stuff you're going to be that proverbial tree falling in the woods. Don't get me wrong, I love that stuff too. I wish more people knew about it or cared even though IMO it's not nearly as good as what Brian accomplished in the 60's....but...I get it. I understand your frustration. As a major McCartney fan I'd love for the world to care about "Ram" like they do the Beatles catalog but they don't and they never will. I can scream about it all I want but it's never going to make a difference. The Beach Boys' 60's work is like some towering behemoth that blocks out the sun...or better yet, it's the sun itself, and we all know what The Sunrays have to say about that. 

Yep.

[MugginsXO]

This thread is a complete waste of time.

And the topic of Bruce's marital status isn't a waste of time..?

This thread has had good debate and good discussion. Absolutely not a waste of time.

[Gerry]

This "debate" is the equivalent of verbal masturbation. If you really believe the question put forth has any validity why would you even visit this message board?

[alf wiedersehen]

This "debate" is the equivalent of verbal masturbation. If you really believe the question put forth has any validity why would you even visit this message board?

Because this is a BEACH BOYS message board.

[MugginsXO]

This "debate" is the equivalent of verbal masturbation. If you really believe the question put forth has any validity why would you even visit this message board?

The implicit tension in most things Beach Boys is between pro this and pro that. That chatter is sniping and griping, often based on little more than who someone has asked to sign their LP of Today! or whatever. This thread at least presents the possibility of substantive results, as it relates to real verifiable things and not (just) soapy infatuation.

[Gerry]

I'm a big believer in Dennis Wilson's 1975 quote " He is the band. We're his fucking messengers."

[SMiLE Brian]

Hell yes!

[lostbeachboy]

So they should have been called Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys..? Like Huey Lewis and The News, Gary Puckett and The Union Gap, Diana Ross and The Supremes.

[SMiLE Brian]

The Beach Boys works just fine. The group was a vehicle for his ideas after all 

[drbeachboy]

So they should have been called Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys..? Like Huey Lewis and The News, Gary Puckett and The Union Gap, Diana Ross and The Supremes.

Hey, at my first Beach Boys concert in Atlantic City in 1969 they were advertised as Carl Wilson and The Beach Boys.

Also, this is one of those beating a dead horse threads. There is no right answer. You have no Beach Boys without Brian Wilson, plain & simple. Yet, without those voices, without the work put in by the band to tour and promote themselves, you probably don't have quite the success that was achieved. In the 70s, the band members stepped forward when Brian stepped back. If they were to survive as a group, this had to be done. Through Holland it was a pretty good mix that made for a series of good albums, at least to us fans who followed them during that time.

[lostbeachboy]

Let's put together a beach boys fan convention. It would prolly be better than this.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think we can fairly easily speculate some what-ifs regarding a band who's nearly every single detail has been hammered out in various books, etc over the decades .....

Knowing what we know about Brian as a teenager/young man, I don't think it's ludicrous to wonder that perhaps if he did not have a Chuck Berry obsessed, guitar playing little brother and neighborhood guitar playing friend, or a football teammate bugging him to start a folk band, or a doo-wop obsessed, singing cousin also bugging him to start a band, and an all-time cool guy middle brother to inspire and inform the image of a possible band (and to also be the perfect drummer for said band) that Brian might not have even started a band at all ...... Might he have become a successful songwriter somehow otherwise? Perhaps: even likely ...... But there would have never in a million years been The Beach Boys if none of the above had been a combined factor.

[Jon Stebbins]

I think we can fairly easily speculate some what-ifs regarding a band who's nearly every single detail has been hammered out in various books, etc over the decades .....

Knowing what we know about Brian as a teenager/young man, I don't think it's ludicrous to wonder that perhaps if he did not have a Chuck Berry obsessed, guitar playing little brother and neighborhood guitar playing friend, or a football teammate bugging him to start a folk band, or a doo-wop obsessed, singing cousin also bugging him to start a band, and an all-time cool guy middle brother to inspire and inform the image of a possible band (and to also be the perfect drummer for said band) that Brian might not have even started a band at all ...... Might he have become a successful songwriter somehow otherwise? Perhaps: even likely ...... But there would have never in a million years been The Beach Boys if none of the above had been a combined factor.

Nailed it. Thanks.

[GhostyTMRS]

Pinder for the win!

[MugginsXO]

If he hadn't lived in California, he wouldn't have written about California. His talent and work set him apart from his environment. He was not simply a result of his circumstances. Being as good as he was at his job or the success he achieved cannot be seen as the other half of the coin of a brother who liked surfing. Having an idea to do something good is not the same as doing something good.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

If he hadn't lived in California, he wouldn't have written about California. His talent and work set him apart from his environment. He was not simply a result of his circumstances. Being as good as he was at his job or the success he achieved cannot be seen as the other half of the coin of a brother who liked surfing. Having an idea to do something good is not the same as doing something good.

But isn't this like taking apart a beautifully complex car and tearing into the engine, pointing at it's innards and saying "it's all about the engine and whoever designed/did the blueprints for the engine"

Most of us don't go to the store, buy random sheet music and fall in love with songs that way ........ Generally, we hear songs on the radio, see a band live, get fed hype, buy records, etc ...... And all that is the product of various sums of parts.

[guitarfool2002]

Getting back to the original question, then the answer is "no"?

[drbeachboy]

Getting back to the original question, then the answer is "no"?

I'd say that is about right.

[guitarfool2002]

Getting back to the original question, then the answer is "no"?

I'd say that is about right.

It's been right since the first reply to the original post. And I reckon it has been and will always be right. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Getting back to the original question, then the answer is "no"?

"was the songwriting better without Brian?"

I agree ..... The answer is absolutely: NO.