Was the songwriting better without Brian..?

[Gerry]

I think it's embarrassing that this is even being discussed.

[RangeRoverA1]

Carl and Dennis' songs and POB, as well as Disney Girls are as good as anything Brian ever did ...... But hey, they're all in the same band, so no harm done.

You must be kidding me. But hey, it's just one man's opinion, so no harm done.

Disney Girls is an all-time classic! Brian would be proud to have written it!

I didn't say better than anything Brian's done, just AS GOOD ..... But it's a mere one song vs countless awesome Brian stuff, so hey....

I remember hearing about a soundcheck during C50 Where they were rehearsing Disney Girls and about a minute into the song Brian shouted "Enough!" and that was the end of the song.

I'm glad that Brian & I agree on sth. Thanks for this tidbit, my fave Today song.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think it's embarrassing that this is even being discussed.

I'm with you. It's all subjective anyway.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Okay, time to throw my hat in there...

In my honest opinion, Brian is the greatest living songwriter. Period. I'd rather listen to his 'worst' vocals than just about anybody else at their best.  Production-wise, there was none better in his time (can't compare him to any one else who came in after the advent of stereo). That said...to act like he could have been just as big without the rest of the band is ludicrous. It's not taking anything away from Brian to say that, either. It was the perfect blend of harmonies married with music that was leaps and bounds above anything else out there with lyrics that captured the youth and produced by a genius.  It was the perfect combination at the perfect time. Each of the rest of the band could have been the most talented member in any other band. To attempt to diminish the other members is to attempt to diminish Brian's genius...Brian chose them, wrote parts for them, produced them. They learned from the master, and Dennis grew into a musical genius himself (and in a different manner from Brian. Each was a first rate singer as well.

They were all awesome, and Brian was just a bit awesome-r.

Perfectly put, Billy.

All I can add is, I think, anything smacking of diminishing the other Beach Boy's contributions is more of a counter to the whole "Was The Songwriting Better Without Brian?" thing, rather than actual intentions to diminish.

Even myself, as the biggest, most ultimate Mike Love fan in the world, can see how ludicrous the question was in the first place.

[CenturyDeprived]

Okay, time to throw my hat in there...

In my honest opinion, Brian is the greatest living songwriter. Period. I'd rather listen to his 'worst' vocals than just about anybody else at their best.  Production-wise, there was none better in his time (can't compare him to any one else who came in after the advent of stereo). That said...to act like he could have been just as big without the rest of the band is ludicrous. It's not taking anything away from Brian to say that, either. It was the perfect blend of harmonies married with music that was leaps and bounds above anything else out there with lyrics that captured the youth and produced by a genius.  It was the perfect combination at the perfect time. Each of the rest of the band could have been the most talented member in any other band. To attempt to diminish the other members is to attempt to diminish Brian's genius...Brian chose them, wrote parts for them, produced them. They learned from the master, and Dennis grew into a musical genius himself (and in a different manner from Brian. Each was a first rate singer as well.

They were all awesome, and Brian was just a bit awesome-r.

Perfectly put, Billy.

All I can add is, I think, anything smacking of diminishing the other Beach Boy's contributions is more of a counter to the whole "Was The Songwriting Better Without Brian?" thing, rather than actual intentions to diminish.

Even myself, as the biggest, most ultimate Mike Love fan in the world, can see how ludicrous the question was in the first place.

I think if the OP's question was posed as "Does anyone prefer songs written without Brian's involvement?", it might not seem as odd a question. It's not a competition, but I guess the question could almost be construed that way if one wants it to.

I adore the wilderness years period, and many songs from that era have little or no Brian involvement, which in and of itself doesn't bother me (other than feeling sad since the lack of involvement could probably be said to have stemmed from his severe depression/illness). It's interesting to compare and contrast the best material that the band released (sans Brian's songwriting involvement), since some of it holds up quite well to Brian's work, and depending on ones' taste, some people might prefer that material.

I love just about all of it, including Kokomo and Make it Big.  

[MugginsXO]

Even if one was to believe that Brian Wilson could only have done this music with The Beach Boys, or that he needed them in one way or the other it still doesn't suggest they were equally important. They weren't equally important, not unless you hold every element of making music or being in a band as completely relative. I would also suggest that the line up of the band was changed several times, including very early on with Al Jardine and David Marks. It would not have been possible to switch in Brian Wilson with someone else, in any fashion, and still have anything close to that music. That is not a knock against Al Jardine or David Marks, it is simply that playing guitar in a band is less integral than writing and producing the songs. Preferences and affection for one member or the other are fine but let's not be silly. What the band did subsequent to Brian leaving a dominant position was only possible because of what came before.

[beatnickle]

A more ridiculous thread is hard to imagine. I don't even think the Beatles could match Brian....... let alone the other Beach Boys. By the way.... I can't stand Disney Girls.

[clack]

Brian's slow retreat did leave room for the other guys to contribute songs and arrangements. In fact, it left them no choice but to step up and fill the void -- with, at first, promising results.

It's one thing, though, to write a few good songs, it's another to sustain the quality year after year, album after album. Other than Brian, only Dennis had the talent to do that.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I agree with Mikie – the rest of the band indeed did step up in a big way once Brian began retreating. They put together some of the finest albums of the band’s discography. Furthermore, if a band could only claim “Forever,” “Feel Flows,” and “All This is That” they would consider themselves lucky. I think to an extent what is troubling some posters here is the fact that the songwriting post-1968 is more of a group effort, while Brian took on the lion’s share of the writing before that. Indeed, I don’t think the original poster is saying that individually there were better songwriters in the band than Brian – I think that would be an impossible argument to make.

To the question of whether or not the band needed Brian as much as he needed them up until 1965. Obviously, it’s hard to answer this question objectively. If it comes down to whether I would like the band as much if it were Brian and four other guys, I’d say, probably not, though it’s an impossible question to answer. But I can’t imagine another set of guys producing that sound that I enjoy so much.

That being said, while Brian indeed needed the other four (or five) guys to make the records sound the way that we all know them and love them, it is difficult to say for sure whether he needed them to be successful in the music industry the way that they needed him during that period. Brian indeed could write hits outside The Beach Boys and, like I said earlier, his first #1 song with his name attached was recorded by another act. Sure, Brian eventually needed the brand The Beach Boys to help him sell records but that’s quite different from saying he needed the other guys. And furthermore, apart from a few examples, the brand has almost always done better with Brian than without.

Indeed, Brian never did it alone. Dennis gave him the idea of writing about surf, Mike co-wrote many of the songs. Yet he also went outside the band for help and I’m not prepared to say that Brian needed Gary Usher and Roger Christian as much as they needed him to write successful songs. Certainly the songs that they co-wrote wouldn’t have been the same without them, but I don’t believe that Brian couldn’t have been successful without them.

[filledeplage]

Songwriting and producing by the other members of the band complimented Brian's writing and producing. They stepped up. They had to. And I'll say some of it was as good or even better than what Brian was writing at the time.

Not that hits really matter, but how many did Brian write and how many did the rest of the band members write?  

Somebody said apples & oranges. Or cranberry sauce. Or yellow matter custard. Which is probably true.  

Agreed.  Just pulled Surf's Up (LP) off a shelf, and just checked who did what.  Ten songs.  Brian has three, where he was sole author/co-composer credited, and the other guys stepped in, with stuff of their own.  It is absolutely appropriate that their work was included.  They are a band, not a solo act. Nothing from Dennis at this time, but with Carl, Al, Mike and Bruce all getting composer credit.  

And, I doubt if they (the entire band) were precluded from song writing, but that the earlier role was filled by Brian.  This LP is not Brian-dominant, and yet it is a masterpiece, I think.  It is not hedonistic, as were earlier LP's and time and era appropriate.  And, as John Manning remarked in some thread that there is so much from which to choose.  They all had/have talent to compose.  Dennis had a short but brilliant run at composing.  Who knows if Dennis had not been "kept down" in the role of percussion (which I think is as important or more so than some other instruments) whether he might have tried his hand sooner at composition.  

To answer the post's query? Not necessarily better, but different, without assigning "value judgement."  

[Smilin Ed H]

The short answer is that for a limited period of time, the songwriting (either without Brian or with him taking a lesser role) was very good indeed - but, Dennis excepted -  it didn't last, or if it did, there's precious little evidence on the officially released stuff - but you have to bear in mind that, Love You aside, an awful lot of Brian's post 76 contributions don't exactly set the world alight, not for me anyway, until his first solo album, TLOS and TWGMTR.

[Dancing Bear]

Genius or not, after writing, producing and releasing a VAST amount of songs in a 6 years marathon, new ideas will take more of an effort to be worked out. It doesn't matter if your surname is Wilson, Bacharach, Nilsson or McCartney.

Brian slowed down in the 70s like everyone else in his generation - not to mention his personal problems. When Dennis was 30 he had written, produced and released material that would fill one album and a half. He was still full of ideas.

[Mikie]

Well..........I agree with Rockandroll and "Filledeplage".

[Mr. Cohen]

I think Brian slowed down in the '70s because he wasn't scoring any hits. He either didn't feel there was enough demand from the public for him to try and put together an entire album, or he was obsessing for months at time over a single song in the hopes he could turn it into a hit. Look at the writing credits for "Sail On Sailor". He was probably playing it at every party he went to.

He finally got a hit with "Rock & Roll Music" (go figure) and we got an entire album of inspired Brian originals as a result.

[guitarfool2002]

This is tough because a majority of the nature of a discussion like this is primarily subjective, as was pointed out, and for the most part I've stayed out of it. At the same time, the topic itself going back to page one was crystal clear and very much focused on a specific question, was the songwriting better without Brian. It's been several pages of posts which nuanced the original point into personal preferences for specific eras, albums, and the like. But to answer the original question and the focus of that original question, I think it has to get back to some of the documented history of the band and the band members, as well as adding some of the less concrete "what if" type of scenarios.

In that case, I'd suggest looking at what the legacy of the Beach Boys is and will be in future generations. The music released by The Beach Boys in the 1960's is simply one of the most defining bodies of work of its era, whether through hard sales numbers or the longevity and appeal of that music over 50+ years. It is very similar to The Beatles catalog from the 60's, as good and as popular as some of the individual members' solo efforts have been, will the next generations of listeners be talking about Mind Games or Venus And Mars with anything close to the way the Beatles catalog of songs from the 60's will be regarded?

It may be difficult to realize as a hard fact, but as beloved as an album like Ram might be among fans, it will never come close to the legacy of the Beatles catalog. And I'd say as much as BB's fans have an affinity for certain 70's or later releases, they will never be thought of in the same category as those 60's Capitol recordings, if we're talking about the legacy of the band.

And here's the catch that may not go down so well: If you remove Brian Wilson from the Beach Boys music in the 1960's, it would not have happened. The other band members, as competent musicians and vocalists as they were, simply were *not* songwriters, arrangers, or producers throughout most of the 1960's, and while they would develop those skills to different degrees of success or competence in later years, in the 1960's they were not skilled enough to do what Brian was doing in the writing and production process. When the musical legacy that is still being celebrated was in its most crucial stages of development, when every new release really mattered in a competitive business where you had to release several new products several times each year in order to remain successful in that peer group and demographic, the only band member who had those skills in place at that time was Brian.

It doesn't even need to go into debating what he or the band would or could have done with or without each other as a group in order to weigh how important Brian and his skills as a writer and producer were to the band in general. And to suggest was the writing better without him, I think by the face value of such a question it seems a bit absurd as a notion, and the simple fact of looking at who else in the band was capable of writing and producing full albums and delivering several singles each year to that kind of competitive market as existed in the 60's would answer the original question immediately.

One litmus test anyone can run: Take any of the greatest hits packages through the years, take any Beach Boys setlist up to the songs they're playing live in 2014, and remove each and every song where Brian Wilson has a writing credit. Every one of them.

Tell me, how many tickets would be sold to a Beach Boys live concert if you removed everything with Brian Wilson's name? How many greatest hits albums would have been sold if not a single song with Brian's creative involvement were included? How would the audience who buys tickets to see the Beach Boys as of 2014 react if they went to a show and heard nothing but songs Brian did not write or co-write?

It's not even about expressing positive opinions for albums like Carl And The Passions or Holland, or songs Brian wasn't involved in writing in the 70's, or Dennis' or Carl's solo efforts, but it again goes back to just how massive of a catalog the Capitol releases from the 60's really is, how influential it was and is, and how beloved that music still is 50+ years later, and it's a hard fact that the overwhelming majority (if not 99.9999% of it minus covers up to '67-'68) of that catalog had Brian's songwriting contributions, not to mention his production and arranging.

Again the topic can be nuanced and shaped into many different forms and directions, but the nature of the question was crystal clear, and the answer is an emphatic "no", and a most basic review of the band's history could even prove that opinion wrong based on the fact that when the band became the legends they are through those 60's recordings, and when they reached the most people through their music, no one else was bringing to the table what Brian was contributing to the music. And his songs are still the ones responsible for the Beach Boys being a marketable entity in 2014.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Well said.

[Jon Stebbins]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

It is interesting that Brian scored his first #1 without the Beach Boys...

It is interesting that the Beach Boys scored their last #1 without Brian...is that full circle or just a 180?

[Jon Stebbins]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

It is interesting that Brian scored his first #1 without the Beach Boys...

BTW...David Marks' royalty statements dispute that notion, he's paid as being a musician on that track.

[MugginsXO]

I agree with Mikie – the rest of the band indeed did step up in a big way once Brian began retreating. They put together some of the finest albums of the band’s discography. Furthermore, if a band could only claim “Forever,” “Feel Flows,” and “All This is That” they would consider themselves lucky.

I really question whether these are some of the finest songs or albums in the band's catalogue. I understand they are good tracks from pretty good albums but hey the 70s was filled with people who could turn out good songs and albums. They were solid albums, they mean something to longtime Beach Boys fans but I doubt if they genuinely reach the level of the classics of the 60s. That people cared so much about solid to good (with a few great moments) material is almost entirely caused by the quality established by a Brian Wilson led outfit. How many people care or cared about Mike Love/Al Jardine/Carl Wilson/Dennis Wilson's songwriting outside of that context? Outside of the context of living up to a standard set by some other guy? Even for Dennis Wilson, relatively few human beings on the earth. For Carl, Mike and Al? Basically no-one.

To the question of whether or not the band needed Brian as much as he needed them up until 1965. Obviously, it’s hard to answer this question objectively.

But it is possible to answer the question objectively. So much of the stuff on this thread acts as if songwriting is a mystical, inexplicable process and everyone has a little bit of magic in them! But it isn't, and they don't. It's a process and a job and the person who did the LARGE share of the real world job was Brian Wilson. He wrote, produced and performed and more importantly informed the musical/artistic direction of the band.  

If it comes down to whether I would like the band as much if it were Brian and four other guys, I’d say, probably not, though it’s an impossible question to answer. But I can’t imagine another set of guys producing that sound that I enjoy so much.

It is impossible to answer in the sense that no-one else did those things that you and I love but that doesn't mean that these particular people with some talent were necessary. If you are removing it from a mystical sense, could other people have played those parts and sang those parts? Yes. Could Mike Love or Carl Wilson have written them the songs and albums that produced a similar commercial or artistic success in the 1960s? No. They couldn't have. And they didn't.

Indeed, Brian never did it alone. Dennis gave him the idea of writing about surf, Mike co-wrote many of the songs. Yet he also went outside the band for help and I’m not prepared to say that Brian needed Gary Usher and Roger Christian as much as they needed him to write successful songs. Certainly the songs that they co-wrote wouldn’t have been the same without them, but I don’t believe that Brian couldn’t have been successful without them.

I think people generally, and because of the perhaps unreasonable negativity towards Mike Love over the years WILDLY OVERESTIMATE the skill and difficulty of writing the lyrics on those songs, or contributing a musical idea to a couple of songs. Mike Love was not and is not in any objective, reality based musical sense close to Brian Wilson. That does not make him worthless. It ALSO doesn't make him John Lennon to Brian's Paul McCartney. Mike Love is not a monster but that doesn't mean he is a bloody creative genius either. It doesn't even mean he is a mediocre talent. It just means people said some unfair things about him and didn't properly value what he did contribute.

Second it is quite insulting both to Brian and Dennis Wilson that someone suggesting the idea of writing about surf means much of anything. Van Gogh was inspired by sunflowers too but it doesn't mean that they should have a co-writing credit or say in his biography "Yes, of course he painted this and completed this work on his own back but really we shouldn't forget the credit for photosynthesis! He really couldn't have done it without it!"

The band contributed important things. They also provided a context which is linked forever with the music but if we are speaking of music as a thing that people can create, and not just something that spontaneously and inexplicably occurs, Brian Wilson can comfortably be placed objectively as the single most important influence on the band and the music they made. Collectively, individually, it doesn't matter. Without him there was no band, there was no comeback music in the 70s for people to give a sh*t about. It is no shame to admit this. And it doesn't mean you can't be nice to Al Jardine the next time you meet him.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

It is interesting that Brian scored his first #1 without the Beach Boys...

It is interesting that the Beach Boys scored their last #1 without Brian...is that full circle or just a 180?

Yes, they were without Brian but they were helped immeasurably by other talent like John Phillips. However, I was responding to a point about a specific era (1961-1965). I have no doubt that by 1988, Brian in many ways really did need the rest of the band as much as they needed him.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I agree with Mikie – the rest of the band indeed did step up in a big way once Brian began retreating. They put together some of the finest albums of the band’s discography. Furthermore, if a band could only claim “Forever,” “Feel Flows,” and “All This is That” they would consider themselves lucky.

I really question whether these are some of the finest songs or albums in the band's catalogue. I understand they are good tracks from pretty good albums but hey the 70s was filled with people who could turn out good songs and albums. They were solid albums, they mean something to longtime Beach Boys fans but I doubt if they genuinely reach the level of the classics of the 60s. That people cared so much about solid to good (with a few great moments) material is almost entirely caused by the quality established by a Brian Wilson led outfit. How many people care or cared about Mike Love/Al Jardine/Carl Wilson/Dennis Wilson's songwriting outside of that context? Outside of the context of living up to a standard set by some other guy? Even for Dennis Wilson, relatively few human beings on the earth. For Carl, Mike and Al? Basically no-one.

To the question of whether or not the band needed Brian as much as he needed them up until 1965. Obviously, it’s hard to answer this question objectively.

But it is possible to answer the question objectively. So much of the stuff on this thread acts as if songwriting is a mystical, inexplicable process and everyone has a little bit of magic in them! But it isn't, and they don't. It's a process and a job and the person who did the LARGE share of the real world job was Brian Wilson. He wrote, produced and performed and more importantly informed the musical/artistic direction of the band.  

If it comes down to whether I would like the band as much if it were Brian and four other guys, I’d say, probably not, though it’s an impossible question to answer. But I can’t imagine another set of guys producing that sound that I enjoy so much.

It is impossible to answer in the sense that no-one else did those things that you and I love but that doesn't mean that these particular people with some talent were necessary. If you are removing it from a mystical sense, could other people have played those parts and sang those parts? Yes. Could Mike Love or Carl Wilson have written them the songs and albums that produced a similar commercial or artistic success in the 1960s? No. They couldn't have. And they didn't.

Indeed, Brian never did it alone. Dennis gave him the idea of writing about surf, Mike co-wrote many of the songs. Yet he also went outside the band for help and I’m not prepared to say that Brian needed Gary Usher and Roger Christian as much as they needed him to write successful songs. Certainly the songs that they co-wrote wouldn’t have been the same without them, but I don’t believe that Brian couldn’t have been successful without them.

I think people generally, and because of the perhaps unreasonable negativity towards Mike Love over the years WILDLY OVERESTIMATE the skill and difficulty of writing the lyrics on those songs, or contributing a musical idea to a couple of songs. Mike Love was not and is not in any objective, reality based musical sense close to Brian Wilson. That does not make him worthless. It ALSO doesn't make him John Lennon to Brian's Paul McCartney. Mike Love is not a monster but that doesn't mean he is a bloody creative genius either. It doesn't even mean he is a mediocre talent. It just means people said some unfair things about him and didn't properly value what he did contribute.

Second it is quite insulting both to Brian and Dennis Wilson that someone suggesting the idea of writing about surf means much of anything. Van Gogh was inspired by sunflowers too but it doesn't mean that they should have a co-writing credit or say in his biography "Yes, of course he painted this and completed this work on his own back but really we shouldn't forget the credit for photosynthesis! He really couldn't have done it without it!"

The band contributed important things. They also provided a context which is linked forever with the music but if we are speaking of music as a thing that people can create, and not just something that spontaneously and inexplicably occurs, Brian Wilson can comfortably be placed objectively as the single most important influence on the band and the music they made. Collectively, individually, it doesn't matter. Without him there was no band, there was no comeback music in the 70s for people to give a sh*t about. It is no shame to admit this. And it doesn't mean you can't be nice to Al Jardine the next time you meet him.

I didn't say about 95% of the claims that you are attributing to me in your responses. Sorry if I made myself unclear but I can't respond to points that I have almost nothing to do with.

[MugginsXO]

Not all of that was specifically directed in opposition to you. Your appeal to relativity prompted a named response.

[guitarfool2002]

Yes, they were without Brian but they were helped immeasurably by other talent like John Phillips. However, I was responding to a point about a specific era (1961-1965). I have no doubt that by 1988, Brian in many ways really did need the rest of the band as much as they needed him.

They were also helped immeasurably by the song's placement on the soundtrack to a Tom Cruise film called Cocktail, even before the song was considered part of a Beach Boys album or anything of the sort, and for songwriting and production don't forget Scott McKenzie and Terry Melcher which makes a total of four songwriters involved in writing that song.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Your appeal to relativity prompted a named response.

What are you talking about?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Yes, they were without Brian but they were helped immeasurably by other talent like John Phillips. However, I was responding to a point about a specific era (1961-1965). I have no doubt that by 1988, Brian in many ways really did need the rest of the band as much as they needed him.

They were also helped immeasurably by the song's placement on the soundtrack to a Tom Cruise film called Cocktail, even before the song was considered part of a Beach Boys album or anything of the sort, and for songwriting and production don't forget Scott McKenzie and Terry Melcher which makes a total of four songwriters involved in writing that song.

Agreed.