holland/end if an era,,

[phirnis]

I like that notion of 'Brian's shadow looming over Surf's Up'. It's a nice expression of what made that album so utterly fascinating to me when I first discovered it. Both his presence and his absence can be felt over the course of the album and then there's that short cameo lead vocal on Take a Load off Your Feet (of all things, easily the silliest track on the entire record of course) on which Brian is sometimes credited as a co-writer and sometimes he's not, which is something I always found strange in a fascinating way. I don't know whether they did it in a conscious fashion or not, but on Surf's Up I feel they really perfected that image of Brian as troubled genius recluse.

[Smilin Ed H]

I think it's a clear, not to day mind numbingly obvious bookend to a period in BB musical style and, indeed creativity. First we have the effect of Murray's death on the Wilsons, then there is the salient point that the non-Wilsons never contributed songs of that calibre again, and while it's fair to say Al may have had a few in the can, they seldom saw the light of day in the post Endless Summer surge. It's also fair to say that Carl's contributions were rarely anywhere near as good as they were in this period (Angel Come Home, maybe?). Love You aside, it's the last band album where I can sit down and listen to (and enjoy) every single track. The only two albums of new material that I feel comfortable doing that with AFTER this period are POB and BW88 (and I'm annoyed by the production on the latter) - and Bambu if you want to count the second disc in the POB re-release. I don't fall out with the BB after this period; I love the stuff (that's why I'm here) but I get annoyed by some of the choices made and the desperate attempts by most members (including Brian, but I realise that between Landy, drugs and the sale of Endless Summer, he may not have had the wherewithal to do otherwise) to turn out songs reflecting their 64-65 heyday that exhibit little of their quality and end up being a tad embarrassing.  I think the one time they came near to a wholly good album after Holland and until TWGMTR was the Light Album, but, as we've discussed many times before, some of the more potentially interesting numbers were left off at the expense of guff  - about half an album's worth of guff, in fact.

[Smilin Ed H]

Of course, I could probably do something similar for other artists I like - or liked. I think the wheels fall off Springsteen's wagon after Tunnel of Love. I'm not dismissing everything that comes after, but it doesn't have that consistency and a lot of it is lacking in the quality. Van Morrison after Into the Music. Joni Mitchell after Night Ride Home (maybe after Wild Things Run Fast). Stevie Wonder after Hotter Than July. They all continued to make music I like and most of their albums have obvious gems, but there's an awful lot of stuff that does little for me. Dylan? Street Legal to be sure, but I like the unreleased version of Infidels and have soft spots for Time Out of Mind and Love and Theft. Paul Simon? Graceland - or at least the unreleased MTV Unplugged show that knocks spots off the released Central Park one - but, again, there is stuff on most of his later albums that I enjoy, though You're The One is a stretch. Then there are artists I like whose work had a;ways been a bit hit and miss - John Hiatt, Jackson Browne and Tom Petty come to mind.

[kookadams]

Holland was their last legitimate album, think about it:: 15 big ones was a tribute album of covers with a handful of new tunes; love you was brian qilson solo album with the BB name contractually on it; MIU was a thrown together album from old sessions and rejected leftovers, same with the Light album and KTSA ...after Holland the only hit songs they had was chucks Rocknroll music and then kokomo...they began the 70s where they left off in the 60s as a progressive rock band, holland ended that, every album that followed was purely contractual obligation, the heart was gone, with Love you as the only exception.

[Micha]

Holland was their last legitimate album, think about it:: 15 big ones was a tribute album of covers with a handful of new tunes; love you was brian qilson solo album with the BB name contractually on it; MIU was a thrown together album from old sessions and rejected leftovers, same with the Light album and KTSA ...

With that logic, you cannot deprive BB85 of the "legitimate album" status. All new recordings, no leftovers!

[runnersdialzero]

Holland is one of my least favorite Beach Boys albums - same goes for Carl And The Passions. Not my least favorite, but among my least favorite.

The spirit of the band is just not here on, like, 80% of it, the material is lackluster save for a few tracks, and The Beach Boys are really, really not a "prog rock" band in any way. As spotty as 15 Big Ones is, stuff like "Had To Phone Ya", "It's OK", "That Same Song", and a couple others mean worlds more to me than the generally very contrived-feeling stuff on the two prior albums.

[halblaineisgood]

Right on, brother.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

Holland is one of my least favorite Beach Boys albums - same goes for Carl And The Passions. Not my least favorite, but among my least favorite.

The spirit of the band is just not here on, like, 80% of it, the material is lackluster save for a few tracks, and The Beach Boys are really, really not a "prog rock" band in any way. As spotty as 15 Big Ones is, stuff like "Had To Phone Ya", "It's OK", "That Same Song", and a couple others mean worlds more to me than the generally very contrived-feeling stuff on the two prior albums.

+1

[Please delete my account]

Who agrees that holland was the last true BB album? Love you being brians album with the BB name on it,,,miu, light album and keepin the summer alive were made up from mixed sessions from previous yrs..

Holland was their last legitimate album, think about it:: 15 big ones was a tribute album of covers with a handful of new tunes; love you was brian qilson solo album with the BB name contractually on it; MIU was a thrown together album from old sessions and rejected leftovers, same with the Light album and KTSA ...after Holland the only hit songs they had was chucks Rocknroll music and then kokomo...they began the 70s where they left off in the 60s as a progressive rock band, holland ended that, every album that followed was purely contractual obligation, the heart was gone, with Love you as the only exception.

Do you ever actually read anyone else's posts? When people disagree with you you simply ignore all their points and come back and repeat the exact same thing you said in the first place.

[kookadams]

Nah, the post isnt about is holland anyones favorite album, its dissecting its quality as being the end of an era and their last substantial output release that was recognized for so, if it sounds repeated thats just how it appears..

[Lee Marshall]

Have to agree with the post which named the LIVE album right after Holland as 100% worthy of notice and respect.  To me...'Holland' was the LAST great studio album...until 'Smile' finally saw the light of day and until they actually got together with faculties basically intact for 'That's Why 'the man in the sky' Made the Radio'.  The rest contained some really good tunes alongside some [by Beach Boys established standards] downright STINKERS.

My point of view comes with grey hair because I lived it as it happened.  I didn't discover the Beach Boys after all was said and done.  I didn't suddenly realize that they were better than I'd previously thought.  I was there as THEY happened.  As Brian sunk from the playing field and as they continued to ignore the enormous talents of Dennis...the Beach Boys became irrelevent...except to their died-in-the-wool fans.

Some of the compilation albums containing surprises [like the Box Set, Hawthorne CA. etc] were great to get and full of GREAT surprises...but Holland was the end of the IMPRESSIVE line.

I've said it before...I do NOT like the 'term' Brianista.  I think it degrades Brian and your fellow fans.  Brian was obviously the MOST creative of the lot.  Only Dennis could come close to giving Brian a run for his creative money...for awhile...but to assume that we Brian fans LOVED 'Love You' isn't necessarily always true.  I thought it was simply horrible.  [and I was never a fan of Smiley Smile either]

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runnersdial0 said..."and The Beach Boys are really, really not a "prog rock" band in any way."

Well actually...YES THEY WERE.  Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains [and the lost album] were progressive to the extreme.  And so it continued...pretty much with less and less Brian but with more Jack instead.  The progressive FM radio stations at the time played tracks from Surfs Up, Carl and the Passions and Holland.  That was the end of that though.  Out came Endless Summer and suddenly Mike was back in the spotlight...and Sha Na Na at the Beach was born.  Fun is good.  Creativity is better [for me].

[phirnis]

I think there is a difference between "progressive rock" and "Progressive Rock". The latter they were clearly not (imho), though they may have experimented with that image around the time of Surf's Up and Holland (to a certain extent that is).

[drbeachboy]

Have to agree with the post which named the LIVE album right after Holland as 100% worthy of notice and respect.  To me...'Holland' was the LAST great studio album...until 'Smile' finally saw the light of day and until they actually got together with faculties basically intact for 'That's Why 'the man in the sky' Made the Radio'.  The rest contained some really good tunes alongside some [by Beach Boys established standards] downright STINKERS.

My point of view comes with grey hair because I lived it as it happened.  I didn't discover the Beach Boys after all was said and done.  I didn't suddenly realize that they were better than I'd previously thought.  I was there as THEY happened.  As Brian sunk from the playing field and as they continued to ignore the enormous talents of Dennis...the Beach Boys became irrelevent...except to their died-in-the-wool fans.

Some of the compilation albums containing surprises [like the Box Set, Hawthorne CA. etc] were great to get and full of GREAT surprises...but Holland was the end of the IMPRESSIVE line.

I've said it before...I do NOT like the 'term' Brianista.  I think it degrades Brian and your fellow fans.  Brian was obviously the MOST creative of the lot.  Only Dennis could come close to giving Brian a run for his creative money...for awhile...but to assume that we Brian fans LOVED 'Love You' isn't necessarily always true.  I thought it was simply horrible.  [and I was never a fan of Smiley Smile either]

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runnersdial0 said..."and The Beach Boys are really, really not a "prog rock" band in any way."

Well actually...YES THEY WERE.  Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains [and the lost album] were progressive to the extreme.  And so it continued...pretty much with less and less Brian but with more Jack instead.  The progressive FM radio stations at the time played tracks from Surfs Up, Carl and the Passions and Holland.  That was the end of that though.  Out came Endless Summer and suddenly Mike was back in the spotlight...and Sha Na Na at the Beach was born.  Fun is good.  Creativity is better [for me].

Not just Mike. As discussed earlier, Dennis and all the rest took the direction of Jim Guercio who has made no bones that he is the one who encouraged them to embrace their past, in concert. If you were there, as you say, you know that they fought playing too many oldies in their shows, right through 1974. 15 Big Ones happened for quite a few reasons: It was a way to get Brian back in the saddle, it played to the oldies that were being performed in concert, and lastly, many big acts were into recording remakes of 50's and 60's material. Mike may have embraced doing the oldies to sold out stadiums, but prior to 1975 you also will find him sometimes almost scolding fans in the audience for yelling out oldies titles while the band were trying to perform newer material.

[runnersdialzero]

runnersdial0 said..."and The Beach Boys are really, really not a "prog rock" band in any way."

Well actually...YES THEY WERE.  Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains [and the lost album] were progressive to the extreme.  And so it continued...pretty much with less and less Brian but with more Jack instead.  The progressive FM radio stations at the time played tracks from Surfs Up, Carl and the Passions and Holland.  That was the end of that though.  Out came Endless Summer and suddenly Mike was back in the spotlight...and Sha Na Na at the Beach was born.  Fun is good.  Creativity is better [for me].

I think there's a difference between "progressive", which the Beach Boys often were, and progressive rock, which, to me, generally did not suit them or play to their strengths. I feel like some people cling to the Ricky/Blondie years mostly because it's more "serious" and "dignified" compared to the likes of their public image nowadays (UNCLE JESSE KOKOMO LOL BUT PET SOUNDS AND BRIAN WILSON THO), but to me, it just doesn't feel like The Beach Boys in most ways. I'm not saying it needs to be Mike Love's Surf 'n' Sun Band 4ever, there's just a vibe or feel (or something) that runs throughout much of their catalog that is almost completely missing from those two albums (and the '74 live record). Something big is missing and not really made up for in other ways, something makes these records sound very dated overall (not in a good way) in ways that many of their other albums are not. There are a few exceptions in specific songs, but not many.

"It's OK" is "fun", sure, but who says it's not also totally creative? A Beach Boys record doesn't have to be "fun" to feel right, but I don't think "fun" and "creativity" have to be mutually exclusive at all - see Smile for about the best example I can think of, in this context. Some might have seen something like "It's OK" as regressive back in '76, but to me, songs like "It's OK", "Had To Phone Ya" etc. were The Beach Boys finally feeling like The Beach Boys again. These songs are totally unique and distinctive and had a lot of charm to them that you could only find on Beach Boys records. While there are nods to the past in there, it still had a lot going for it in terms of being something they'd never really done before. That, to me, is worlds more progressive than simply following the serious, dignified prog/blues wank rawk of the day. This is obviously not true of every song on 15 Big Ones, but it absolutely applies to Love You, which I feel is one of the bigger reasons that record is held in such high regard.

[halblaineisgood]

I think there's a difference between "progressive", which the Beach Boys often were, and progressive rock, which, to me, generally did not suit them or play to their strengths. I feel like some people cling to the Ricky/Blondie years mostly because it's more "serious" and "dignified" compared to the likes of their public image nowadays (UNCLE JESSE KOKOMO LOL BUT PET SOUNDS AND BRIAN WILSON THO), but to me, it just doesn't feel like The Beach Boys in most ways. I'm not saying it needs to be Mike Love's Surf 'n' Sun Band 4ever, there's just a vibe or feel (or something) that runs throughout much of their catalog that is almost completely missing from those two albums (and the '74 live record).

"It's OK" is "fun", sure, but who says it's not also totally creative? A Beach Boys record doesn't have to be "fun" to feel right, but I don't think "fun" and "creativity" have to be mutually exclusive at all - see Smile for about the best example I can think of, in this context. Some might have seen something like "It's OK" as regressive back in '76, but to me, songs like "It's OK", "Had To Phone Ya" etc. were The Beach Boys finally feeling like The Beach Boys again. These songs are totally unique and distinctive and had a lot of charm to them that you could only find on Beach Boys records. While there are nods to the past in there, it still had a lot going for it in terms of being something they'd never really done before. That, to me, is worlds more progressive than simply following the serious, dignified prog/blues wank rawk of the day. This is obviously not true of every song on 15 Big Ones, but it absolutely applies to Love You, which I feel is one of the bigger reasons that record is held in such high regard.

[SMiLE Brian]

Runners is right on the money!

[Smilin Ed H]

Don't think the Boys ever did wank rock. Don't think the environmental concerns expressed on Surf's Up or Sunflower were an attempt to catch the vibe of the day - they seem to be concerns that are still close to Al and Mike's hearts. I think the early 70s albums flow smoothly from those of the late 60s kicked off by Smile. The guys were aging, expressing themselves. Dylan of 1974 didn't sing the same stuff as Dylan of 1964 and so on. We all have our favourite BB eras, but don't deny them the ability to develop their writing and ideas - otherwise DW fans would never get past Denny's Drums and Little Bird, Cuddle Up, Steamboat etc would be utterly dismissed. They're far less one dimensional than some people, including fans doggedly attached to a particular time period, would like to think.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

One way that Holland could be considered the end of an era is Brian's second breakdown. I've heard some on this board mention that he was never the same afterwards, but I'm fuzzy on the details. Was that discussed much in Catch a Wave? It's been like 4 years since I read it, I'm not sure I remember...

[Smilin Ed H]

Murry's death.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

What do we consider to be his first breakdown?

[Mr. Cohen]

The Beach Boys ended when Carl finished puberty.

[SMiLE Brian]

What do we consider to be his first breakdown?

1964 plane ride breakdown.

[Mr. Cohen]

In all seriousness, BB85 is the first BBs album I don't consider 'classic era'.  By then Brian is marginalized (even if he got a few vocals and songs, it's really the first album where they didn't promote a Brian single OR have him either cowrite or produce the majority of the songs), Dennis is gone, and Carl is more or less just going with the flow. I unofficially consider this the beginning of the Mike Love Era.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

What do we consider to be his first breakdown?

1964 plane ride breakdown.

Yeah, I guess that or SMiLE. Admittedly my terminology was kinda vague. The plane was an acute panic attack I think, while SMiLE was a drawn out creative and social regression. If I knew more about whatever happened on Holland I could say which one that more closely resembles.

[Lee Marshall]

Runners... i hear you...and I get what you're saying.  I don't completely agree...especially regarding Love You...but I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you.  Your perspective is totally valid.  So peace.
Mr. Cohen...the exact second Endless Summer hit the shelves...the Mike Love era officially began.  Even if there were a few detours and road-blocks.  And then there's now.

Thank goodness Bruce didn't use that stick.