Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?

[drbeachboy]

Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book."  
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.

Exactly. I'm very disappointed with Carl's behaviour. No wonder Brian wanted nothing to do with his brother in the 80s and 90s.

It was Mike who did all the talking. Because in here, Mike is the only one who has ever had a bad word or thought about his family and bandmates.

Well, Michael is a given! I think that with all those evidences and facts that we have it's time to revaluate Car'l actions as a band member and as a brother.

Hey, like Danny said in the YouTube video, Carl was the referee. I'm sure he went in there so that Mike didn't over alpha-dog it with Brian. These guys weren't just any band or any business, they were family first and foremost and that is how they best interacted with each other.

[Cam Mott]

Is it just me or is Hutton unaware that Mike was one of the writers of Darlin' in that clip?

[Dancing Bear]

Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book."  
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.

Exactly. I'm very disappointed with Carl's behaviour. No wonder Brian wanted nothing to do with his brother in the 80s and 90s.

It was Mike who did all the talking. Because in here, Mike is the only one who has ever had a bad word or thought about his family and bandmates.

Well, Michael is a given! I think that with all those evidences and facts that we have it's time to revaluate Car'l actions as a band member and as a brother.

Hey, like Danny said in the YouTube video, Carl was the referee. I'm sure he went in there so that Mike didn't over alpha-dog it with Brian. These guys weren't just any band or any business, they were family first and foremost and that is how they best interacted with each other.

Nah, Danny knew that behind his angelic PR Carl was a badass who could reduce Brian to tears, that's why he went soft in the interview. Fear. Real fear.

[drbeachboy]

Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book."  
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.

Exactly. I'm very disappointed with Carl's behaviour. No wonder Brian wanted nothing to do with his brother in the 80s and 90s.

It was Mike who did all the talking. Because in here, Mike is the only one who has ever had a bad word or thought about his family and bandmates.

Well, Michael is a given! I think that with all those evidences and facts that we have it's time to revaluate Car'l actions as a band member and as a brother.

Hey, like Danny said in the YouTube video, Carl was the referee. I'm sure he went in there so that Mike didn't over alpha-dog it with Brian. These guys weren't just any band or any business, they were family first and foremost and that is how they best interacted with each other.

Nah, Danny knew that behind his angelic PR Carl was a badass who could reduce Brian to tears, that's why he went soft in the interview. Fear. Real fear.

Ahh, you mean he is just like us? Pin anything and everything on Mike. The man is such an easy target. I'll say this, from everything that I ever read about The Beach Boys, Danny described each personality perfectly.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I wonder: is it possible to parody a point of view that hasn't actually been expressed?

[SMiLE Brian]

This thread has been turned into a clusterfuck by people who somehow don't like BW in the BBs.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'll reiterate my question to the doubters, since nobody has weighed in with their opinion to what I asked previously. What would the definition of emotional browbeating, or "going too far" be with regards to this? Is there a line you could draw, or actions/words/body language you could say that if it came from Mike, you yourself would say this could constitute something along the lines of emotional abuse? If you saw video/audio of said incident, is there something that could have been said that you would admit was not right?

And please note: I'm absolutely *not* saying conclusively that emotional abuse for sure happened, but I do wonder where people would draw that line. If Brian felt like crying, and looked like he wanted to cry (but actually didn't), does that count? Or do some people feel that every single of Brian's feelings in 1967 (as they relate to how others treated him) should be considered irrelevant (when discussing what his bandmates did/didn't say/do) since he was taking drugs and was simply too emotional? I think that some people on this board feel that way. Or can it be said that someone, even if that person has emotional problems, can still be a victim of unfair bullying by others nonetheless?

Does someone want to weigh in with where they'd draw the line? I'm curious.

CenturyDeprived, I want to answer this with as straightforward a reply and suggestion as I'm probably qualified to offer, going on the available information related to this.

I'd suggest looking at the question by focusing on the family dynamic that was in place, specifically relevant to that specific time in and around 1967. I've seen, heard, and read accounts from various "outsiders" who were brought into the outer fringes of this family dynamic as employees or as close associates, and who were able to view it and report on it as both observers who were not blood relatives yet who were in the inner circle just the same.

Please watch this interview clip of Danny Hutton that I posted earlier. He talks directly about the family dynamic he witnessed first as a friend of Brian's then as someone who was involved in the business of Brother Records as an artist who was considered being signed to the label, and who Brian was producing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776

After hearing Danny's take on that family dynamic which he witnessed, consider that others who were similarly involved like Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, David Anderle, Michael Vosse, and perhaps a few others from that time have been quoted on the record as having witnessed a similar family dynamic running as an undercurrent through some of what they witnessed or were involved in. I cannot possibly corral all of the exact quotes or sources, but taken as a whole, I get the feeling through their observations that a lot of what they witnessed as possible tensions or even disagreements within the principle members of the group (and the family) were more deeply rooted in issues beyond the issue or the disagreement of the moment. You see how Danny comments on each of the band members' "role" as he observed them, and consider that the other outsiders who witnessed these things have expressed a feeling that they were in the middle of a family issue that had more to do with the family than it did with them or the issues at hand. I got the feeling these things would come up, and the outsider had a feeling of getting sucked into the twister that was already swirling around the family, and I think that undercurrent was something that was in place long before anything one of these outside collaborators or associates was directly involved with. And the tension may have been palpable enough for them to at least feel "what the hell have I walked into?" regarding what they were doing in a professional sense.

That's just my take. I'd suggest looking at it from the standpoint of an existing family dynamic rather than narrowing it down to bullying or other specific issues.

Thanks for the link, guitarfool. Yes, unquestionably the family dynamic is inextricably linked to how everything played out, and to how such communication styles were witnessed by outsiders.

I guess I just think that regardless of what went down (which none of us will ever really know), I would hope that everyone could agree that verbal/emotional abuse can happen; it’s a real thing that exists in the universe, and people sometimes very unfortunately inflict it upon others. Ultimately, abuse is simply not ok and not excusable, no matter how you slice it or spin it. Again, whether or not that happened here is certainly subject to debate, but some peoples’ postings seem to imply that this is simply not something that could possibly have happened here (implying that verbal/emotional abuse is always 100% unquantifiable and that nobody should ever under any circumstances be held accountable for inflicting it on others).  That implication bugs me a lot.

Most everyone agrees that there were actions by Landy and Murry that were inexcusable (obviously, physical abuse, trying to worm one’s way into Brian’s will, and unethical drug prescriptions are obvious things that virtually everyone can agree are never, ever ok). But just the same, there should be a set of standards for verbal/emotional abuse also being considered unacceptable. And Mike strikes me as someone who *might* well have done just that. This will always remain a grey area, obviously. It’s really only in the modern era where everyone has a smartphone videocamera where people are more often held to task for their actions. I think if recordings were to surface of this incident and many others throughout the years, parties would obviously be much better held to task for their actions. Some people thrive on grey areas since they allow history to be rewritten.

[Dancing Bear]

This thread has been turned into a clusterfuck by people who somehow don't like BW in the BBs.

clusterfuck: Military term for an operation in which multiple things have gone wrong. Related to "SNAFU" (Situation Normal, All f***ed Up") and "FUBAR" (f***ed Up Beyond All Repair).

I don't get it. 

[ontor pertawst]

You could just scroll down a few lines to where it goes on to say: "Today, however, "clusterfuck" is commonly used to descriptively generalize any situation with a large scale of disarray. "
 

[Dancing Bear]

I don't get how this thread has gone in disarray, anyway. But it's just my opinion.

[SMiLE Brian]

It has with your trolling posts looking to inflame the thread.

[Dancing Bear]

It has with your trolling posts looking to inflame the thread.

Since when is judging one Beach Boy's personality based on evidences, accounts and facts considered trolling?

[SMiLE Brian]

Ignoring guitarfool's thread topic about redwood.

[guitarfool2002]

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

[Dancing Bear]

Ignoring guitarfool's thread topic about redwood.

I read every post written by guitarfool in this thread. I had never payed much attention to the role Carl had played in this incident, the thread made me think about that. Can't we change opinions? That's what's debating is good for.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

Because with Darlin we have a co-author motivation for Mike which probably meant Time To Get Alone got lumped in with that issue as another song The Beach Boys should have (in their opinion) been recording instead of Redwood.

Any earlier song Brian and Mike gave to another artist, we can assume they agreed upon doing so. If they hadn't agreed on doing the same with Darlin, well here might lie the root of the situation... And do we really think a "brow beating" was necessary at that time to reduce Brian to tears? ... I'm not trying to defend anyone or blame/slam Brian, I'm just trying to open this up to where we can be empathetic to EVERYONE involved... A band is a business and this band was also a family... Such things happen in both.

And are we really supposed to sit here and "reevaluate" Carl's character because he got his way once over Brian's objections?

I've seen arguments over the set list for a show drive people into screaming, sobbing fits..... Bands are rarely a pretty thing on the inside.

[drbeachboy]

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

[Wirestone]

Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.

[guitarfool2002]

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

Time To Get Alone was a major part of the issue in general: Carl and Mike took the tapes, and took what was slated to be a Redwood song and production with them. They had nothing with that recording at that point to take with them even if they wanted to.

And again, this was a song which was mostly finished, and which had nothing to do with even the possibility that a co-authorship or intended use for the band was causing some kind of disagreement that led to this. TTGA was Brian's song and Brian's production for an artist he wanted to bring onto the Brother label, and basically the Beach Boys called an end to the whole process and took the tapes with them, as of Fall 1967. Redwood was left with nothing to carry with them in terms of a release or anything to take to another interested party, it basically ended at Heider's studio that day when Carl and Mike came in.

[drbeachboy]

Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.

You are too much! I want tell you something, I have a brother and a sister, who I made cry and they made me cry. 50 plus years later, I hold no grudge, nor do they. This stuff happens in families. In a close nit dynamic stuff like that happens. These guys just happen to work with each other closely, as well. Fights and arguments are going to ensue and most likely people are going to get there feelings hurt. It happens! They move on, life goes on. Hell, Mike & Brian even worked together again 2012. Who knew?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.

No one is saying sandy thing like that

And sure Time To Get Alone was a huge part of the issue, but what I'm saying is, Darlin might have been what got the ball rolling.

I, for one, am glad it happened. We have two stone cold Beach Boys classics that came from the incident and Redwood did just fine as Three Dog Night.

[drbeachboy]

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

Time To Get Alone was a major part of the issue in general: Carl and Mike took the tapes, and took what was slated to be a Redwood song and production with them. They had nothing with that recording at that point to take with them even if they wanted to.

And again, this was a song which was mostly finished, and which had nothing to do with even the possibility that a co-authorship or intended use for the band was causing some kind of disagreement that led to this. TTGA was Brian's song and Brian's production for an artist he wanted to bring onto the Brother label, and basically the Beach Boys called an end to the whole process and took the tapes with them, as of Fall 1967. Redwood was left with nothing to carry with them in terms of a release or anything to take to another interested party, it basically ended at Heider's studio that day when Carl and Mike came in.

I always thought that that whole scene was mostly over Darlin' and TTGA was just along for the ride. Darlin' was the tune that was recorded and released right away, while TTGA was more than a year away from getting released.

[Dancing Bear]

Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.

Correction: Mike and Carl drove him to tears.

[drbeachboy]

Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.

Correction: Mike and Carl drove him to tears.

Yep, Carl too. Referees make bad calls sometimes.

[Cam Mott]

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?