Feeling confused...who's the hero and who's the villain?

[schiaffino]

Hey people, I just bought Priore's book a couple of weeks ago. I'm half-way through (reading it on my way to work) and the more I read, the more confused I get about how I feel for some band members. Was Mike Love such a douche bag back during the Smile sessions? Was Van Dyke Parks the savior of the band in the 70s when he got them the Warner contract and gave them 'Sail On, Sailor'? Was Carl really involved in forcing Brian to abandon the Redwood project?

I know real life has too many shades and not everything is black and white. But come on, the more I read about the BBs, the less attractive as human beings they appear to me!

I've read other books (really liked the one from Carlin), watched countless documentaries and I spend a lot of my time in this board.  And the more I get to know about the band, the more inclined I feel to put them in either a 'Hero' or 'Villain' label, so as to reduce the complexity of how I see them, you know? Its definitely not the right to do, but its part of human nature when there are just too many variables to work with.

For example, is Brian a Hero or a Villain? This would be a quick analysis based on the information available to me:
Reasons for Hero

• All the wonderful music he made
• Completing Smile in 2014 - that sure took a lot of guts
• Continue to tour at his age so as (newer) fans can see him live

Reasons for Villain

• Canning Smile back in 1967
• Wasting a big chunk of his life doing drugs
• Not taking control of his life and letting others make all key decisions

Verdict: Hero, anyone who writes something as beautiful as 'Surf's up' will have a chance when facing God for judgement

What do you think of this approach? Anyone has the same mixed feelings and its attempting a way to minimize the emotional complexity?

In any case, even if Mike ends up labeled as Villain, that wont stop me from going to see him play next time he comes to Montreal. But it will put into perspective whatever I hear him say when he gives an interview.

[drbeachboy]

The Beach Boys are like everyone else who has ever lived on this Earth; sometimes we are all Heroes and Villains at different times in our life.

[schiaffino]

The Beach Boys are like everyone else who has ever lived on this Earth; sometimes we are all Heroes and Villains at different times in our life.

Yes, I agree. My intent was to understand a bit more why some of them were Heros or Villains at a certain time. And just to see how people analyze and categorize them.

For example, Mike Love gets a lot of flak in this board, but seems to me that a lot is just free riding - he's bad because I heard he was bad. But if you list his good deeds and his asshole moments, wouldnt that give you (and everyone who reads this post) a better understanding on how you see this person?

Anyways, just wanted to start an interesting discussion...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Hey people, I just bought Priore's book a couple of weeks ago. I'm half-way through (reading it on my way to work) and the more I read, the more confused I get about how I feel for some band members. Was Mike Love such a douche bag back during the Smile sessions? Was Van Dyke Parks the savior of the band in the 70s when he got them the Warner contract and gave them 'Sail On, Sailor'? Was Carl really involved in forcing Brian to abandon the Redwood project?

That would be the 2005 Smile book ? You should know that there's a lot of claims in there that have either been disproven, or have the shakiest possible foundation.

Example: Mike was filmed by Oppenheim having an argument with Brian about the "Surf's Up" lyrics. No, he wasn't. No mention of any such thing in Oppenheim's filming notes.

Example: The Beatles covertly listened to Smile tapes in LA and that informed Sgt. Pepper's. No, they didn't. Couldn't have. The respective timelines don't mesh. VPD later recanted his claim in any case.

Example: the Redwood incident. There's a single source for that, Chuck Negron's autobiography. Danny Hutton's never said word one about it in the ensuing 46-odd years. And he would.

[Dancing Bear]

A huge part of becoming a Beach Boys' fan, besides all the great music, is because of the insane characters, the long saga and the prevalent craziness. Why would you want to spoil all your fun reducing everyone to heroes vs villains?

[schiaffino]

Hey people, I just bought Priore's book a couple of weeks ago. I'm half-way through (reading it on my way to work) and the more I read, the more confused I get about how I feel for some band members. Was Mike Love such a douche bag back during the Smile sessions? Was Van Dyke Parks the savior of the band in the 70s when he got them the Warner contract and gave them 'Sail On, Sailor'? Was Carl really involved in forcing Brian to abandon the Redwood project?

Hi Andrew, yes, the 2005 one. Thanks for your clarifications, I knew you and other people had mentioned before that Priore's book was not 100% accurate. But when you're relatively new to the BBs history, books and documentaries such as his are the main source of info.

If I may ask, how would you rank them? I apologize in advanced for the use of the word 'Rank', but what would be in your opinion the key Hero and Villain moments of each band member? You have a lot of first-hand insight, so I'm really curious to see how you would review them.

And again thanks for the previous post, it made it worthwhile to have created this thread  

[pixletwin]

A huge part of becoming a Beach Boys' fan, besides all the great music, is because of the insane characters, the long saga and the prevalent craziness. Why would you want to spoil all your fun reducing everyone to heroes vs villains?

This.

I have trouble classifying anyone in my faovorite band as either "hero" or "villain". I don't quite understand the point of this thread. 

[schiaffino]

A huge part of becoming a Beach Boys' fan, besides all the great music, is because of the insane characters, the long saga and the prevalent craziness. Why would you want to spoil all your fun reducing everyone to heroes vs villains?

I just want to know how people, with more experience and insight than me on the BBs history, evaluate the band members. And instead of just getting a 'Bruce is a boring tag-along', I'd like to get the arguments behind their opinions. I know its a lot to ask, but it was worth giving a shot.

And by no means I want to reduce the fun of being a BBs fan. At all. I wanna know moreeeee

[schiaffino]

A huge part of becoming a Beach Boys' fan, besides all the great music, is because of the insane characters, the long saga and the prevalent craziness. Why would you want to spoil all your fun reducing everyone to heroes vs villains?

This.

I have trouble classifying anyone in my faovorite band as either "hero" or "villain". I don't quite understand the point of this thread. 

<sigh> I understand. The final verdict part is not necessary if it doesnt make sense.

But I mean, I'm sure that even though you like Carl (for example) there might be things about him that really get to your nerves. Call this group therapy about our fav group so as for all us to voice how we view them and exchange opinions. I'm sure it could make an interesting thread.

[Rocker]

The Beach Boys are like everyone else who has ever lived on this Earth; sometimes we are all Heroes and Villains at different times in our life.

Except for Bruce - he's God

[schiaffino]

The Beach Boys are like everyone else who has ever lived on this Earth; sometimes we are all Heroes and Villains at different times in our life.

Except for Bruce - he's God

 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Hey people, I just bought Priore's book a couple of weeks ago. I'm half-way through (reading it on my way to work) and the more I read, the more confused I get about how I feel for some band members. Was Mike Love such a douche bag back during the Smile sessions? Was Van Dyke Parks the savior of the band in the 70s when he got them the Warner contract and gave them 'Sail On, Sailor'? Was Carl really involved in forcing Brian to abandon the Redwood project?

That would be the 2005 Smile book ? You should know that there's a lot of claims in there that have either been disproven, or have the shakiest possible foundation.

Example: Mike was filmed by Oppenheim having an argument with Brian about the "Surf's Up" lyrics. No, he wasn't. No mention of any such thing in Oppenheim's filming notes.

Example: The Beatles covertly listened to Smile tapes in LA and that informed Sgt. Pepper's. No, they didn't. Couldn't have. The respective timelines don't mesh. VPD later recanted his claim in any case.

Example: the Redwood incident. There's a single source for that, Chuck Negron's autobiography. Danny Hutton's never said word one about it in the ensuing 46-odd years. And he would.

And we now know that not only did the BB play on the Darlin track, Carl played drums on the initial session while the song was still intended for Redwood, thereby disproving the Negron story for good.

[Dancing Bear]

A huge part of becoming a Beach Boys' fan, besides all the great music, is because of the insane characters, the long saga and the prevalent craziness. Why would you want to spoil all your fun reducing everyone to heroes vs villains?

I just want to know how people, with more experience and insight than me on the BBs history, evaluate the band members. And instead of just getting a 'Bruce is a boring tag-along', I'd like to get the arguments behind their opinions. I know its a lot to ask, but it was worth giving a shot.

And by no means I want to reduce the fun of being a BBs fan. At all. I wanna know moreeeee

Well, you might start then. Who's a hero and who's a villain in your opinion, and why? We'd love to read your evaluation.

[Andrew G. Doe]

If I may ask, how would you rank them? I apologize in advanced for the use of the word 'Rank', but what would be in your opinion the key Hero and Villain moments of each band member? You have a lot of first-hand insight, so I'm really curious to see how you would review them.

And again thanks for the previous post, it made it worthwhile to have created this thread  

Simple - no heroes, no villains. Just a zillion shades of gray. Everyone's had their moments.

[Mr. Verlander]

Besides, if you read anything that Priore wrote, you'll find that most of it places Brian in the Hero category, while Mike Love is going to be lower than a Villain. His work seems to be, um, slanted in one direction.

[schiaffino]

Ok this is how I feel about them:

Carl
Hero because

• He fought for the band and for their musical integrity (until mid 70s at least)
• He made copies of the Smile tapes with Desper that saved the music for posterity
• He contributed in the studio, playing with the Wrecking Crew as a session musician and learning how to produce (from Brian)
• Bonus: He helped finish Love You, my fav BBs album after Pet Sounds 

Villain because

• He failed to keep the band from becoming an oldies act after 'Endless Summer' - if he was the band leader, then yes, it is his responsibility
• Why did he took so long to get Brian away from Landy? I mean, come on, he should have acted sooner
• He failed to deliver good songs after Feel Flows...its a big disappointment 'cause that song and LPR are so good, it makes you wonder what else he could have done...

Dennis
Hero because

• He was the balls in a rather nerdy-looking band
• He was always an unconditional supporter of Brian
• He wrote some good stuff and he even let some songs intended for Bamboo on LA - think that was very generous

Villain because

• Seems he was an asshole womanizer, even getting his way with the wives of the other band members
• He didnt take performing seriously after the mid 70s, getting drunk, showing up naked...losing his performer credibility
• He failed to stand up for Brian during Smile and later when the band lost direction in the late 70s

Mike
Hero because

• He had the guts and ambition to take the frontman role in a band full of shy nerds
• He co-wrote some amazing songs, he was a very valuable collaborator - whenever he wanted to be
• He still tours, at 70+, doing more shows than most kid bands nowadays...RESPECT

Villain because

• Failed to grasp the musical moment post 1966 summer, which led him to not support the band in projects like Smile and Monterrey
• Made too many enemies in the industry, hurting the image of the band - the RnR Hall of Fame speech is such a bad moment for Mike 
• Keeps on playing Kokomo and pretends like its the big deal - oh Mike if there's one thing I cant forgive you is that piece of shi***

Al
Hero because

• Lived a healthy life, so he has still a great voice and allowed us to enjoy it during the C50 tour
• Came back to play with the BBs and not pursue a career in dentistry
• He came up with the idea of covering Sloop John B...good call!

Villain because

• Never really produced good material for the band
• Its impossible to understand how he feels about Mike: one moment he criticizes him publicly about ending C50, the next he plays with him live...dont get it
• Should have stopped pretending he plays guitar and just do bass - apparently he was very good at it in the early days

Bruce
Hero because

• His musical skills and the quality of his playing/singing for the band
• Came back in the late 70s when he could have had a successful solo career
• Continues to tour at his age so for us to enjoy his mic adjusting 

Villain because

• He could have done so much more in a producer role with his skills; feels like he never really went that extra mile, both LA and KTSA are so lame...
• Wears shorts during concerts, WTF??? He's clearly not Angus Young!!!
• Contributed to the whole cheesy BBs 80s image in a conscious way and for someone as smart as he is...its just so wrong

I already did Brian and I dont know much about David to make this analysis. What do you think?

[schiaffino]

A huge part of becoming a Beach Boys' fan, besides all the great music, is because of the insane characters, the long saga and the prevalent craziness. Why would you want to spoil all your fun reducing everyone to heroes vs villains?

I just want to know how people, with more experience and insight than me on the BBs history, evaluate the band members. And instead of just getting a 'Bruce is a boring tag-along', I'd like to get the arguments behind their opinions. I know its a lot to ask, but it was worth giving a shot.

And by no means I want to reduce the fun of being a BBs fan. At all. I wanna know moreeeee

Well, you might start then. Who's a hero and who's a villain in your opinion, and why? We'd love to read your evaluation.

Just did, let me know what you think

[schiaffino]

If I may ask, how would you rank them? I apologize in advanced for the use of the word 'Rank', but what would be in your opinion the key Hero and Villain moments of each band member? You have a lot of first-hand insight, so I'm really curious to see how you would review them.

And again thanks for the previous post, it made it worthwhile to have created this thread  

Simple - no heroes, no villains. Just a zillion shades of gray. Everyone's had their moments.

Any key shades of dark and light gray among the zillion ones? Like if you were to be Mike's attorney in the heavenly court of musicianship, what would be your top arguments?

[Sound of Free]

Ok this is how I feel about them:

Dennis
Hero because

• He was the balls in a rather nerdy-looking band
• He was always an unconditional supporter of Brian
• He wrote some good stuff and he even let some songs intended for Bamboo on LA - think that was very generous

Villain because

• Seems he was an asshole womanizer, even getting his way with the wives of the other band members
• He didnt take performing seriously after the mid 70s, getting drunk, showing up naked...losing his performer credibility
• He failed to stand up for Brian during Smile and later when the band lost direction in the late 70s

I don't believe Dennis ever showed up naked. He streaked onstage a few times in the '70s when streaking was big. There's a big difference.

[drbeachboy]

Ok this is how I feel about them:

Carl
Hero because

• He fought for the band and for their musical integrity (until mid 70s at least)
• He made copies of the Smile tapes with Desper that saved the music for posterity
• He contributed in the studio, playing with the Wrecking Crew as a session musician and learning how to produce (from Brian)
• Bonus: He helped finish Love You, my fav BBs album after Pet Sounds  

Villain because

• He failed to keep the band from becoming an oldies act after 'Endless Summer' - if he was the band leader, then yes, it is his responsibility
• Why did he took so long to get Brian away from Landy? I mean, come on, he should have acted sooner
• He failed to deliver good songs after Feel Flows...its a big disappointment 'cause that song and LPR are so good, it makes you wonder what else he could have done...

You're wrong about Carl and Oldies Act thing. Turns out it was Dennis who went to Guercio, who in turn to make them Superstars again, had them go the Greatest Hits/Oldies route.

[schiaffino]

Ok this is how I feel about them:

....

You're wrong about Carl and Oldies Act thing. Turns out it was Dennis who went to Guercio, who in turn to make them Superstars again, had them go the Greatest Hits/Oldies route.

Ok, but wasnt Carl calling the shots on the band material in the early to mid 70s? Or was Dennis so influential at that time direction-wise?

And what would be the source for this, if I may ask?

[drbeachboy]

Ok this is how I feel about them:

....

You're wrong about Carl and Oldies Act thing. Turns out it was Dennis who went to Guercio, who in turn to make them Superstars again, had them go the Greatest Hits/Oldies route.

Ok, but wasnt Carl calling the shots on the band material in the early to mid 70s? Or was Dennis so influential at that time direction-wise?

And what would be the source for this, if I may ask?

The band decided together to send Dennis to Jim Guercio. It was his suggestions and management of the band that led to a second Superstardom, especially in 75 & 76. Can't remember if it was Jon, Ed, David Beard or someone else who mentioned it, but it was mentioned in here, say in the last 2-3 weeks.

[Niko]

He failed to stand up for Brian during Smile and later when the band lost direction in the late 70s

Dennis was always a supporter of Smile. He was one of the first to share the tapes!

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Ok this is how I feel about them:

Carl
Hero because

• He fought for the band and for their musical integrity (until mid 70s at least)
• He made copies of the Smile tapes with Desper that saved the music for posterity
• He contributed in the studio, playing with the Wrecking Crew as a session musician and learning how to produce (from Brian)
• Bonus: He helped finish Love You, my fav BBs album after Pet Sounds  

Villain because

• He failed to keep the band from becoming an oldies act after 'Endless Summer' - if he was the band leader, then yes, it is his responsibility
• Why did he took so long to get Brian away from Landy? I mean, come on, he should have acted sooner
• He failed to deliver good songs after Feel Flows...its a big disappointment 'cause that song and LPR are so good, it makes you wonder what else he could have done...

'Carl failed to deliver good songs after Feel Flows...' Er, well, there was 'Trader', his absolute masterpiece, two albums later.

[Jon Stebbins]

He failed to stand up for Brian during Smile and later when the band lost direction in the late 70s

Dennis was always a supporter of Smile. He was one of the first to share the tapes!

Yeah... saying "Dennis failed to stand up for Brian during Smile" is a total mis-read of the historical record.