Never Learn Not To Love is criminally under-appreciated

[SMiLE Brian]

but I suppose that shows you are incapable of growing up.

Thanks, Dad.

can you help me find my own retrokid who will talk to mods for me?

[Awesoman]

Yeah I always dug this song.  Nice production, some great backing vocals, and a rather creepy nod to "Little GTO" at the end (perhaps unintentional?). 

[alf wiedersehen]

Good thread.

[joshferrell]

to me it's like driving by a car accident... you listen to it knowing that you shouldn't and because it's a messed up thing to do. but at the same time you can't help but to listen to it because of the fact that it's messed up and you become intrigued by it, kind of like "Am I REALLY listening to this song written by a murderer?"... but you do it anyways...BTW I like Dennis' production on it, sure Manson's lyrics aren't very good IMO, but the arrangement is great, I get more "Disturbed" by Manson's original acoustic recording then the BB's version...I picture him sitting with his cult by a campfire strumming the guitar while they trip on acid and talking about murdering people..lol...

[The Demon]

I find it funny that so many have an issue with a Charles Manson song, but no issue with taking off work for holidays glorifying the Founding Fathers, who were terrorists who didn't want to pay taxes and helped kill more people.  But, hey, pick the easy fights, right?

[alf wiedersehen]

I find it funny that so many have an issue with a Charles Manson song, but no issue with taking off work for holidays glorifying the Founding Fathers, who were terrorists who didn't want to pay taxes and helped kill more people.  But, hey, pick the easy fights, right?

That seems like an appropriate avenue of discussion for this thread.

[Niko]

I find it funny that so many have an issue with a Charles Manson song, but no issue with taking off work for holidays glorifying the Founding Fathers, who were terrorists who didn't want to pay taxes and helped kill more people.  But, hey, pick the easy fights, right?

huh? what?




I don't have a problem listening to Manson. A murderer he may be, he wrote some good songs. 'Look At Your Game Girl' off of his solo album is one of my favorite acoustic guitar songs ever. Others around him saw his musical talent..its a shame he's such a messed up person. He probably could have made it in the music business.

[pixletwin]

I find it funny that so many have an issue with a Charles Manson song, but no issue with taking off work for holidays glorifying the Founding Fathers, who were terrorists who didn't want to pay taxes and helped kill more people.  But, hey, pick the easy fights, right?

Ooooookay.

To the guy who wondered if Brian was on this track, I always thought I could hear him in the vocal stack on the bv's during the verses.

[Mike's Beard]

That would be me! I know the part you mean but wondered if that was Al doing his best Brian impression.

[Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll]

I always felt slightly guilty that I liked this song so much, stupid but...

Don't care much for Manson's version but what Dennis (plus maybe Brian) did with it is fantastic.

Actually how many people think Brian had a big hand in the production? seems very plausible to me

[phirnis]

Actually how many people think Brian had a big hand in the production? seems very plausible to me

Don't think so at all. They would've listed his contribution in the production credits for 20/20.

[bossaroo]

ol' Charlie just wasn't a very good songwriter in my opinion, and no amount of production can save the song from being mediocre at best. again, just my opinion.

it's a damn shame that The Beach Boys were including songs by Manson and excluding songs by Wilson on 20/20.

Which specific Brian songs did they exclude from the album? "Old Man River" perhaps?

sure that's a perfect example. it's a million times better than NLNTL, one of Brian's finest arrangements of a timeless standard, and further proof that the Beach Boys were making Americana music before the term was coined.

[phirnis]

Yeah, I agree. It's always been one of my favorite outtakes, even in its (supposedly) unfinished state. Just like the Friends album, kind of Smile-like in a totally unassuming way.

[Please delete my account]

I'm not a keen reader of the annals of crime, I know almost nothing about Manson. I really like the song. Surprised some people are claiming that it's objectively poor regardless of origin, it doesn't seem so at all to me.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think it must've crushed Dennis more than a bit inside for this awesome production (which clearly shows Dennis pouring his heart into making every little detail perfect) to essentially become completely tainted within months of its release.

I think this is one of Denny's great masterpieces (maybe the earliest example of him using the studio in such a massive way, not unlike his brother); top shelf DW, in my opinion. Sounds to my ears like he *really* put his heart and soul into recording this song in particular... so I cannot even grasp what it must've been like for basically everyone (at least in his own world) not ever wanting to listen to/discuss this song again.

Beyond Denny's Manson association (in and of itself) which we all know weighed very heavily on him for the rest of his life, I'd imagine that this song becoming tainted goods (and everyone essentially wishing it didn't exist, wanting to forget it ever happened) had to, on some internal level, cause some major sadness. "Never Learn Not to Love" wasn't a little nugget like "Be Still" (another great song, but clearly just a quickly done one) - to me, it sounds like this was an attempt at Denny stretching his artistic wings to the fullest. It had to hurt that such a song as NLNTL had this fate.

And I think we can all agree that the song would never ever have been released at all if the Manson killings happened anytime before the release of 20/20... I wouldn't be surprised if there was discussion of taking the song off subsequent pressings. And if Manson's name had actually been credited as a co-writer on the song at the time of its release, that's probably exactly what would've happened.

Although I do wonder: pre-internet, how many people (outside of the band) actually knew Manson had a connection to this specific song?

[Kurosawa]

It's not a bad song, but I have always found it sort of bleh. I think Dennis wrote much better songs than this one, although he fixed Manson's basic tune and made it as good as it could have been made.

It is hard to separate it from it's main composer.

[Gabo]

It's an average song. It's not underappreciated. It's just not very special.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

I love it to death. Powerful stuff. Don't care if Manson wrote it, cuz Dennis sort of threw much of the original song away-- creepy blues dirge vs. booming Beach Boys majesty. It's practically heavy metal, really-- sort of reminds me of "Kashmir".

Also, some of you people are destroying this message board.  Quit arguing about NOTHING in every thread.

(Fact: Dennis never wrote a hit song)

[RangeRoverA1]

Disney Boy, you've been here for 3 years now, couldn't you search around the board & share your current opinion there:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11933.50.html

More interesting thread imo.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Disney Boy, you've been here for 3 years now, couldn't you search around the board & share your current opinion there:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11933.50.html

More interesting thread imo.

Range Rover, perhaps there would have been slightly more point in posting the above a little earlier don't you think, rather than waiting until after three full pages of very interesting discussion... If this thread is boring you feel free to just not click onto it again, thanks

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I think it must've crushed Dennis more than a bit inside for this awesome production (which clearly shows Dennis pouring his heart into making every little detail perfect) to essentially become completely tainted within months of its release.

I think this is one of Denny's great masterpieces (maybe the earliest example of him using the studio in such a massive way, not unlike his brother); top shelf DW, in my opinion. Sounds to my ears like he *really* put his heart and soul into recording this song in particular... so I cannot even grasp what it must've been like for basically everyone (at least in his own world) not ever wanting to listen to/discuss this song again.

Beyond Denny's Manson association (in and of itself) which we all know weighed very heavily on him for the rest of his life, I'd imagine that this song becoming tainted goods (and everyone essentially wishing it didn't exist, wanting to forget it ever happened) had to, on some internal level, cause some major sadness. "Never Learn Not to Love" wasn't a little nugget like "Be Still" (another great song, but clearly just a quickly done one) - to me, it sounds like this was an attempt at Denny stretching his artistic wings to the fullest. It had to hurt that such a song as NLNTL had this fate.

And I think we can all agree that the song would never ever have been released at all if the Manson killings happened anytime before the release of 20/20... I wouldn't be surprised if there was discussion of taking the song off subsequent pressings. And if Manson's name had actually been credited as a co-writer on the song at the time of its release, that's probably exactly what would've happened.

Although I do wonder: pre-internet, how many people (outside of the band) actually knew Manson had a connection to this specific song?

This.

[RangeRoverA1]

Range Rover, perhaps there would have been slightly more point in posting the above a little earlier don't you think, rather than waiting until after three full pages of very interesting discussion... If this thread is boring you feel free to just not click onto it again, thanks

Given I read this whole thread w/o non-stop, it wasn't exactly boring, was it? If you took it that way, sorry. Been away of this board for weekend, that's why I didn't reference that topic earlier.

[?]

(Fact: Dennis never wrote a hit song)

You Are So Beautiful.

[bluesno1fann]

(Fact: Dennis never wrote a hit song)

You Are So Beautiful.

Wow, I can't believe I forgot that! Of course!

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Range Rover, perhaps there would have been slightly more point in posting the above a little earlier don't you think, rather than waiting until after three full pages of very interesting discussion... If this thread is boring you feel free to just not click onto it again, thanks

Given I read this whole thread w/o non-stop, it wasn't exactly boring, was it? If you took it that way, sorry. Been away of this board for weekend, that's why I didn't reference that topic earlier.

So getting back to your original post: are you suggesting everyone should trawl through every single previous thread from the last three years before starting up a new thread just to make sure the topic hasn't been discussed previously?