4th of July is one HELL of a song.

[bluesno1fann]

Carl's delivery bothered me the first time I heard it. Learning that it was a scratch vocal, things made sense.

This.

Though I still don't care for the song very much.

[alf wiedersehen]

Melody's weak, singing isn't strong, production is bland and typical, and the lyrics are cheesy and lifted from "The Star-Spangled" banner (which only makes it cheesier).
All this combined with how the song moves like molasses creates something I really don't care for.

[bluesno1fann]

Melody's weak, singing isn't strong, production is bland and typical, and the lyrics are cheesy and lifted from "The Star-Spangled" banner (which only makes it cheesier).
All this combined with how the song moves like molasses creates something I really don't care for.

Still, if the song was fully completed, you might think better of the song. It is after all, an incomplete demo.

[SMiLE Brian]

Carl really liked bland AOR production

[alf wiedersehen]

Melody's weak, singing isn't strong, production is bland and typical, and the lyrics are cheesy and lifted from "The Star-Spangled" banner (which only makes it cheesier).
All this combined with how the song moves like molasses creates something I really don't care for.

Still, if the song was fully completed, you might think better of the song. It is after all, an incomplete demo.

It's possible.

The song tries to be very grand and epic, and I don't know if it could necessarily get there to pull it off.

[Smilin Ed H]

It alludes to the Star Spangled Banner. That's the point.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Melody's weak, singing isn't strong, production is bland and typical, and the lyrics are cheesy and lifted from "The Star-Spangled" banner (which only makes it cheesier).
All this combined with how the song moves like molasses creates something I really don't care for.

Still, if the song was fully completed, you might think better of the song. It is after all, an incomplete demo.

No, it's not. The track is finished.

[buddhahat]

Melody's weak, singing isn't strong, production is bland and typical, and the lyrics are cheesy and lifted from "The Star-Spangled" banner (which only makes it cheesier).
All this combined with how the song moves like molasses creates something I really don't care for.

I'm with Wuvvly on this one. I could never understand why people would want to re-jig Surf's Up to accommodate this song. WIBNTLA, Sound Of Free or Lady, maybe but 4th of July? Snoozefest imo - probably the reason it stayed in the can.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Melody's weak, singing isn't strong, production is bland and typical, and the lyrics are cheesy and lifted from "The Star-Spangled" banner (which only makes it cheesier).
All this combined with how the song moves like molasses creates something I really don't care for.

Still, if the song was fully completed, you might think better of the song. It is after all, an incomplete demo.

No, it's not. The track is finished.

That's good to learn . So all these people saying 'I'd like it if it'd been finished' are in fact talking utter guff. What they mean is 'I don't like it'.

[Niko]

Why? Saying 'if it had been finished I might like it' means nothing more than that.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Why? Saying 'if it had been finished I might like it' means nothing more than that.

Yes, but if it is finished then the comment is meaningless...

[Niko]

I didn't think it was finished until AGD's post. How would anyone else know? There is very little information on these unreleased BB songs, and as far as I knew the song was unfinished. Now I know it's not and it really doesnt make a difference 

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Someone wrote this in the comments section under 4th of July on YouTube:

Incredible song. I can't believe any of the Boys would be okay with this and Wouldn't it be Nice to Live Again not being included on "Surfs Up". It makes me really angry at them.

Couldn't have put it better myself. You frequently hear these unreleased tracks and just think 'What were they thinking??'

[Andrew G. Doe]

I mean the instrumental track is finished. Not the vocal, obviously.

[Smile4ever]

It's absolutely absurd that people think Dennis was a "genius." I'm getting sick of fanboys throwing around that term and mentioning him along with Brian. Get serious. You like Dennis? Fine. You don't have to act like he was something he was not. Very few people in the world can be considered true geniuses, and Brian Wilson was one of only a handful of people in pop music history who can be considered a musical genius.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

It's absolutely absurd that people think Dennis was a "genius." I'm getting sick of fanboys throwing around that term and mentioning him along with Brian. Get serious. You like Dennis? Fine. You don't have to act like he was something he was not. Very few people in the world can be considered true geniuses, and Brian Wilson was one of only a handful of people in pop music history who can be considered a musical genius.

Here is a list of Dennis songs from between 1968-1972 that the band didn't bother to include on any of their albums:

A Time To Live In Dreams
Mona Kani
San Miguel
Lady
I'm Going Your Way
Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again
4th Of July
Carry me Home

That right there is one incredible album!

It's not just that Dennis' songwriting was so good that his fans rave about him; it's that he was - and in many ways continues to be - vastly under-rated by the group, much of their fan base and the general public at large. This only adds to the appreciation of his talents.

Whether he possessed genius or not is open to debate - he was, in my view, a exceptionally gifted but deeply troubled man - but to dismiss or downplay his songwriting ability when faced with a list such as that above is, well, I won't say what I think it is... Each to their own. But please don't say opinions such as mine are 'absurd'.

[Mike's Beard]

Here is a list of Dennis songs from between 1968-1972 that the band didn't bother to include on any of their albums:

A Time To Live In Dreams
Mona Kani
San Miguel
Lady
I'm Going Your Way
Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again
4th Of July
Carry me Home

That right there is one incredible album!

It's not just that Dennis' songwriting was so good that his fans rave about him; it's that he was - and in many ways continues to be - vastly under-rated by the group, much of their fan base and the general public at large. This only adds to the appreciation of his talents.

All great songs but remember,
(a) Mona Kani was unfinished
(b) Lady was a solo track which did get released
(c) WIBNTLA and 4th of July were pulled by Dennis himself.

Dennis still got 2 to 3 songs of his on each album during the 'band years', roughly the same as every other band member. I see no evidence that he was held back by other members at all. I'd also argue that although not as prolific, Carl, Bruce and Mike all wrote songs as good as Dennis during this period.

[Mike's Beard]

It's absolutely absurd that people think Dennis was a "genius." I'm getting sick of fanboys throwing around that term and mentioning him along with Brian. Get serious. You like Dennis? Fine. You don't have to act like he was something he was not. Very few people in the world can be considered true geniuses, and Brian Wilson was one of only a handful of people in pop music history who can be considered a musical genius.

Agreed. Off the top of my head here are the few people who I would consider a true musical genius.

Mozart
Harry Partch
Edgar Varse
Brian Wilson
Frank Zappa

and MAYBE
Phil Spector (for his innovations in production)
Bob Dylan (as a lyrical genius at his peak)
David Bowie ( a minor genius in that he could effortlessly flit from style to style and deliver the goods)

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Here is a list of Dennis songs from between 1968-1972 that the band didn't bother to include on any of their albums:

A Time To Live In Dreams
Mona Kani
San Miguel
Lady
I'm Going Your Way
Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again
4th Of July
Carry me Home

That right there is one incredible album!

It's not just that Dennis' songwriting was so good that his fans rave about him; it's that he was - and in many ways continues to be - vastly under-rated by the group, much of their fan base and the general public at large. This only adds to the appreciation of his talents.

All great songs but remember,
(a) Mona Kani was unfinished
(b) Lady was a solo track which did get released
(c) WIBNTLA and 4th of July were pulled by Dennis himself.

Dennis still got 2 to 3 songs of his on each album during the 'band years', roughly the same as every other band member. I see no evidence that he was held back by other members at all. I'd also argue that although not as prolific, Carl, Bruce and Mike all wrote songs as good as Dennis during this period.

Re your points:

a) Fair enough.
b) I said 'here are songs the band didn't bother to include on albums'; Lady was clearly considered for inclusion on at least one album - it's far too gorgeous a ballad to have been dropped.
c) Yeah but the group should have acknowledged the brilliance of these two songs and included them anyway; after all, Brian didn't want SU on Surf's Up but they bunged it on anyway (likewise, Our Prayer and Cabinessence on 20/20). It just seems the group (and Jack Rieley) far too easily went 'Ok we'll leave those songs in the vault' when Dennis started throwing his toys out the pram, whereas they should have appreciated the quality of the songs and how much they'd improve the album and how much the fans deserved to hear such brilliant material.

Who decided to pull Carry Me Home from Holland?
And re no evidence of Dennis not being appreciated? Come on, even Al has gone on record as saying 'we didn't realise what we had'. With a few notable exceptions, the material Dennis was producing was frequently superior to that of his band mates.

[Mike's Beard]

But as I pointed out before, Dennis was more prolific than the others so it stands to reason that in the democratic period he would have more songs left off albums. The only other option would be to have the others give up album space to accommodate him and where we majorly differ is that I don't see Dennis as a far better songwriter than Carl, Mike etc...

[Disney Boy (1985)]

But as I pointed out before, Dennis was more prolific than the others so it stands to reason that in the democratic period he would have more songs left off albums. The only other option would be to have the others give up album space to accommodate him and where we majorly differ is that I don't see Dennis as a far better songwriter than Carl, Mike etc...

So, just for arguments sake... You don't think Surf's Up would have been better with the inclusion of 4th of July and WIBNTLA either as well as or in place of some of Mike and Al's contributions? I just think pretty much every album from 20/20 to Holland - excellent as they all are - could have been even better with the inclusion of the aforementioned shelved Dennis tracks. Honestly, you don't think Carry Me Home would've taken Holland onto a whole other layer of brilliance (and I say that someone who adores Holland)?

[alf wiedersehen]

I think there's a lot of shelved tracks that could have made their albums better - not just Dennis'.

[Mike's Beard]

But as I pointed out before, Dennis was more prolific than the others so it stands to reason that in the democratic period he would have more songs left off albums. The only other option would be to have the others give up album space to accommodate him and where we majorly differ is that I don't see Dennis as a far better songwriter than Carl, Mike etc...

So, just for arguments sake... You don't think Surf's Up would have been better with the inclusion of 4th of July and WIBNTLA either as well as or in place of some of Mike and Al's contributions?

Of course they would have made an excellent record even better but their not being on the record was the choice of Dennis and Dennis alone. They weren't left off because the others didn't want them on. You can't hold them up as examples of Dennis being held back.

Honestly, you don't think Carry Me Home would've taken Holland onto a whole other layer of brilliance (and I say that someone who adores Holland)?

I can't see Carry Me Home fitting onto Holland in any way shape or form, as good as it is. And I don't think it's a better song than The Trader, Sail On Sailor, Big Sur, Mount Vernon and Fairway or just about anthing else on the lp. I think Holland is perfect as it stands, if anything I would rather have seen We Got Love kept on the album.

I think there's a lot of shelved tracks that could have made their albums better - not just Dennis'.

Exactly - Good Time should have found a home long before Love You, where it stuck out like a sore thumb.

[the captain]

I don't want to post in all the few dozen "This Dennis Song Rules!" type threads, as my comment for 4th of July actually applies to quite a bit of Dennis's work. First, though, let's be clear: I don't care whether you like Dennis. Go for it. I don't care whether you hate Dennis. Have fun with that. I don't put the character ahead of the work whenever I can help it, I'd rather try to demythologize as much as possible (even though the mythology of Smile was admittedly a big part of what piqued my interest in the band when I was young and gullible). Nobody's work is always great: not Brian, not Dylan, not Reed, not Holly, not Waits, not Lennon, not McCartney, and certainly not Dennis.

So, my lengthy prelude aside, here's the deal from my perspective: 4th of July isn't very interesting to me. Like a lot of Dennis's work, it's lacking in motion melodically and harmonically. It drags for me, without a lot of rhythmic propulsion, melodic propulsion, just ... meh. Not for me. I'd put Be Still in a similar category, even though it's affecting to some extent. Never Learn Not To Love is actually more interesting to me, with the harmonies moving under the melody and the percussion keeping things going.

Certainly, Dennis has other music that more suits my taste. He also has more music that seems a bit stagnant and maudlin. (He's like Bruce in the latter respect, but way cooler. Way, way cooler. Hell, I'd f*** him.)

I would love to see if people could find a way to talk about the music without questioning one another's intentions or motivations, as if any of our intentions or motivations were remotely important whatsoever.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

I don't want to post in all the few dozen "This Dennis Song Rules!" type threads, as my comment for 4th of July actually applies to quite a bit of Dennis's work. First, though, let's be clear: I don't care whether you like Dennis. Go for it. I don't care whether you hate Dennis. Have fun with that. I don't put the character ahead of the work whenever I can help it, I'd rather try to demythologize as much as possible (even though the mythology of Smile was admittedly a big part of what piqued my interest in the band when I was young and gullible). Nobody's work is always great: not Brian, not Dylan, not Reed, not Holly, not Waits, not Lennon, not McCartney, and certainly not Dennis.

So, my lengthy prelude aside, here's the deal from my perspective: 4th of July isn't very interesting to me. Like a lot of Dennis's work, it's lacking in motion melodically and harmonically. It drags for me, without a lot of rhythmic propulsion, melodic propulsion, just ... meh. Not for me. I'd put Be Still in a similar category, even though it's affecting to some extent. Never Learn Not To Love is actually more interesting to me, with the harmonies moving under the melody and the percussion keeping things going.

Certainly, Dennis has other music that more suits my taste. He also has more music that seems a bit stagnant and maudlin. (He's like Bruce in the latter respect, but way cooler. Way, way cooler. Hell, I'd f*** him.)

I would love to see if people could find a way to talk about the music without questioning one another's intentions or motivations, as if any of our intentions or motivations were remotely important whatsoever.

Great post.

Don't agree entirely, but I see where you're coming from. Pretty much every Dennis song speaks to me, but I always want MORE from 4th of July, and some others. Like Brian, he sometimes walked away a *tad* early (boy, do I understand that tendency).

This song needs harmonies badly, like some other Dennis songs. I sing my own. Does anyone else?

In many ways, Dennis was (please don't kill me) out of step with the rest of the band. More than Bruce? I dunno. But POB sounded more like the Boys than a lot of his BB album material does. It's almost like many of Dennis's post-Sunflower material-- as little of it as there was-- ended up being a "solo" spot anyways.

Except for Carl. Dennis loved him some Carl, as do we all.