Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks?

[soniclovenoize]

For me, I Wanna Be Around/Workshop IS Earth. The "rebuilding after the fire" and all just seems so right (regardless of the source). Plus IWBA just sounds like Earth. I don't think I would ever be convinced it's not Earth unless  BW knocked on my door and told me otherwise.

It can't be, because IWBA is already in IIGS

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

For me, I Wanna Be Around/Workshop IS Earth. The "rebuilding after the fire" and all just seems so right (regardless of the source). Plus IWBA just sounds like Earth. I don't think I would ever be convinced it's not Earth unless  BW knocked on my door and told me otherwise.

It can't be, because IWBA is already in IIGS

I think if anything recorded was supposed to be Earth...it was definitely Workshop. Not IWBA. Workshop. But then, I don't think it was an element anyway--I'm of the opinion that the track was dead by January, the initial ideas for the other 3 were never recorded, and all attempts at reconstructing this particular SMiLE song as an absolute waste of time. Totally baseless speculation, but I'd put Workshop in a proposed 4-part Barnyard suite (probably what Great Shape the track was slated to become) with GS, Barnyard and IWBA. Just seems right.

[Phoenix]

For me, I Wanna Be Around/Workshop IS Earth. The "rebuilding after the fire" and all just seems so right (regardless of the source). Plus IWBA just sounds like Earth. I don't think I would ever be convinced it's not Earth unless  BW knocked on my door and told me otherwise.

Regardless of the source (or her selective memory), I just can't wrap my head around it.  From every comment Brian ever made about "The Elements" before 2004, I can't see any way he'd include a cover song as part of it.  I was always under the impression that he planned for "The Elements" to be fairly innovative.  In addition to using the "burning wood" for "Fire", I'm convinced "Water" was (at least at some point) going to be constructed from and/or based around the fabled recordings of running water.  Using "The Old Master Painter" to help evoke "Americana" is one thing but I just can't see the logic of including a Tony Bennett song in "The Elements", in relation to the other things we've heard. 

In contrast, "I Wanna Be Around" makes perfect sense (to me) where it eventually wound up.  We know Brian eventually decided to separate "I'm In Great Shape" out of "Heroes And Villains" and into its own song.  I don't know off hand when the "rebuilding" session took place in relation to the session for "Fire" or the decision to excise "IIGS" from "H&V" but my guess (depending where it fits chronologically) is he either recorded "IWBA/Workshop", maybe even with the idea of actually using it as the rebuilding in "The Elements" before changing his mind regarding the latter's scope, or came up with it to specifically fill out "IIGS".  Because together, the first section talks about "great" physical health, while the second (and third) refer to the sorry emotional state and humorously dealing with it through actual physical repairs. 

As always tho, your mileage may vary.

[Summertime Blooz]

In the spirit of the earlier mention of a possible Biblical refernce with the title 'Second Day', I just wanted to interject another earlier post of mine since we're talking  Elements here:

The long slow low notes of IWBA/Friday Night have that inert quality just scream out "Earth" to me. Lately I've been thinking that the "rebuilding after the fire" is actually the land, once leveled by fire, slowly coming back to life. The tool sounds are symbolic of  the earth's rebuilding process. If you accept this theory, then "I Wanna be Around/Friday Night" makes perfect sense as the earth section of The Elements. Aside from that hunch, maybe the title itself is a clue in the form of a pun (Smile humor?)- I Wanna Be A-"round", as in the Earth is round. In the context of new life springing forth from the ground, "Friday Night" could be a Bible reference, Friday Night signifying the end of the Sixth Day of Creation:

" Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." GENESIS 1:27-31

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

For me, I Wanna Be Around/Workshop IS Earth. The "rebuilding after the fire" and all just seems so right (regardless of the source). Plus IWBA just sounds like Earth. I don't think I would ever be convinced it's not Earth unless  BW knocked on my door and told me otherwise.

Regardless of the source (or her selective memory), I just can't wrap my head around it.  From every comment Brian ever made about "The Elements" before 2004, I can't see any way he'd include a cover song as part of it.  I was always under the impression that he planned for "The Elements" to be fairly innovative.  In addition to using the "burning wood" for "Fire", I'm convinced "Water" was (at least at some point) going to be constructed from and/or based around the fabled recordings of running water.  Using "The Old Master Painter" to help evoke "Americana" is one thing but I just can't see the logic of including a Tony Bennett song in "The Elements", in relation to the other things we've heard. 

In contrast, "I Wanna Be Around" makes perfect sense (to me) where it eventually wound up.  We know Brian eventually decided to separate "I'm In Great Shape" out of "Heroes And Villains" and into its own song.  I don't know off hand when the "rebuilding" session took place in relation to the session for "Fire" or the decision to excise "IIGS" from "H&V" but my guess (depending where it fits chronologically) is he either recorded "IWBA/Workshop", maybe even with the idea of actually using it as the rebuilding in "The Elements" before changing his mind regarding the latter's scope, or came up with it to specifically fill out "IIGS".  Because together, the first section talks about "great" physical health, while the second (and third) refer to the sorry emotional state and humorously dealing with it through actual physical repairs. 

As always tho, your mileage may vary.

Yeah, I never bought into the "but a cover is very sturdy and dependable--like Earth!" defense for IWBA. That, to me, is just as laughable and forced as the whole "GV was supposed to be the fifth element...because...reasons" nonsense.

I believe IWBA/Workshop was recorded shortly after Fire. And GS wouldve been its own track shortly after that if you go by the January note to Capitol. So...whatever that means to you.

I think it's possible the other elements wouldve been scary like Fire. Earth could be an earthquake with pounding percussion simulating falling debris and Water being water sounds starting with a tidal wave and into a raging flash flood for example. Obviously this idea was scrapped when he decided Fire was too scary and should be scaled down to a candle.

[Phoenix]

Thanks for the info!  I've never been good with dates (beyond years) and that definitely applies to my knowledge of Smile, regardless of home much time (since 1979!) I've spent dissecting it over the years.  It seems although you and I have our different beliefs regarding Smile during the 60's, I think we have a lot in common as well.  This thread has led me to recreate my version for the THIRD time (following two previous hard drive crashes!) and I look forward to hearing your opinion of it.  I'm attacking it full force (again, re-inspired by this thread) and hope to have it done before the end of summer. 

[alf wiedersehen]

Any thoughts on the sequencing of "The Elements"?
I've been trying out a few different things, and conceptually, the thing that makes the most sense to me is this:

Air -> Fire -> Water -> Earth
We have the wind going out and spreading a flame, creating a fire. Then, water comes and washes it away, leaving the people to rebuild.

Although, I've also thought about this:
Fire -> Air -> Fire -> Water -> Earth
The beginning of "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" would start it off. Then, the wind picks up this small small fire, turning into a large blaze (the second part of "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow"). Then it's just the same as the last sequence.

[Bean Bag]

Great discussion!  It's fun to get back into this after all these years -- especially the elusive "Elements."

Personally -- I think the Elements (and much of SMiLE) would jump around a lot more than we (and even he) allow for today.  More snippets/cuts.  The best (completed) example of Brian's work in this area is Good Vibes.  And it jumps around a bit more than most of us would ever allow if it were left, as is SMiLE, as just a bunch of exploring, extended feels.

I realize Brian was testing/venturing outside the bounds of song structure -- but, in the end, SMiLE was going to be a pleasing, flowing work.  I think the goal of a completed Elements would have been to find a way to combine these different segments in a more daring fashion than just butting the different elemental suites together.  More of a collage than distinct movements.

Air jumps to water, back to earth, then to fire, through the air -- diving into water, crashing back to earth and burning -- a bubbling cauldron of creation -- all matter coexisting, together.

[Summertime Blooz]

Any thoughts on the sequencing of "The Elements"?
I've been trying out a few different things, and conceptually, the thing that makes the most sense to me is this:

Air -> Fire -> Water -> Earth
We have the wind going out and spreading a flame, creating a fire. Then, water comes and washes it away, leaving the people to rebuild.

Sounds about right. I would add though, that I think that the Earth can rebuild itself

[soniclovenoize]

In the spirit of the earlier mention of a possible Biblical refernce with the title 'Second Day', I just wanted to interject another earlier post of mine since we're talking  Elements here:

The long slow low notes of IWBA/Friday Night have that inert quality just scream out "Earth" to me. Lately I've been thinking that the "rebuilding after the fire" is actually the land, once leveled by fire, slowly coming back to life. The tool sounds are symbolic of  the earth's rebuilding process. If you accept this theory, then "I Wanna be Around/Friday Night" makes perfect sense as the earth section of The Elements. Aside from that hunch, maybe the title itself is a clue in the form of a pun (Smile humor?)- I Wanna Be A-"round", as in the Earth is round. In the context of new life springing forth from the ground, "Friday Night" could be a Bible reference, Friday Night signifying the end of the Sixth Day of Creation:

" Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." GENESIS 1:27-31

Interesting but remember that the Jews celebrate the Sabbath (the Day of Rest in honor of the 7th day) on Saturday, but the Christians celebrate it on Sunday.  So the question is, which would Brian Wilson most likely consider as the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday? 

I'll put my money on Sunday.

Regardless of the source (or her selective memory), I just can't wrap my head around it.  From every comment Brian ever made about "The Elements" before 2004, I can't see any way he'd include a cover song as part of it.  I was always under the impression that he planned for "The Elements" to be fairly innovative.  In addition to using the "burning wood" for "Fire", I'm convinced "Water" was (at least at some point) going to be constructed from and/or based around the fabled recordings of running water.  Using "The Old Master Painter" to help evoke "Americana" is one thing but I just can't see the logic of including a Tony Bennett song in "The Elements", in relation to the other things we've heard. 

In contrast, "I Wanna Be Around" makes perfect sense (to me) where it eventually wound up.  We know Brian eventually decided to separate "I'm In Great Shape" out of "Heroes And Villains" and into its own song.  I don't know off hand when the "rebuilding" session took place in relation to the session for "Fire" or the decision to excise "IIGS" from "H&V" but my guess (depending where it fits chronologically) is he either recorded "IWBA/Workshop", maybe even with the idea of actually using it as the rebuilding in "The Elements" before changing his mind regarding the latter's scope, or came up with it to specifically fill out "IIGS".  Because together, the first section talks about "great" physical health, while the second (and third) refer to the sorry emotional state and humorously dealing with it through actual physical repairs. 

As always tho, your mileage may vary.

Well remember
1) FN/IWBA was literally labeled as IIGS on the recording tape box.  It was NOT labeled The Elements Part 4: Some Random Jazz and Then Rebuilding After The Fire (Thanks Carol, Wink Wink)
2) The fact that IWBA was recorded the following day after MOLC shouldn't reflect anything, because Cabin Essence, Our Prayer, Wind Chimes, Wonderful and Child were all recorded in the same week, day after day, and they are obviously separate songs.  The fact that IWBA was recorded directly after MOLC should simply tell us the studio was open and The Wrecking Crew was available to record, not that they are somehow joined.

Also, maybe I be so bold but how is everyone associating Workshop with The Earth in the firstplace?  What if they were building a boat... wouldn't Workshop be the Water section then?  Or maybe they are building a plane... then it's the Air section!

I'm sorry but I don't see how the act of people building should just be associated with The Earth.  It's more likely that we are hearing a farmhouse being built, on a barnyard in the great shape of the agriculture, ifyouknowwhatimean. 

[soniclovenoize]

Yeah, I never bought into the "but a cover is very sturdy and dependable--like Earth!" defense for IWBA. That, to me, is just as laughable and forced as the whole "GV was supposed to be the fifth element...because...reasons" nonsense.

I agree with you but it is interesting to note that many cultures believed there were FIVE elements: Earth, Air, Water, Fire and AETHER or the VOID... or as the Buddhists and Hindi considered it the four elements of matter and then the fifth element that exists beyond matter and the material world.  In this sense, telepathy would be considered that fifth Element and GV perfectly fits that bill.  BW would have probably been aware of this in 66/67... 

Any thoughts on the sequencing of "The Elements"?
I've been trying out a few different things, and conceptually, the thing that makes the most sense to me is this:

Air -> Fire -> Water -> Earth
We have the wind going out and spreading a flame, creating a fire. Then, water comes and washes it away, leaving the people to rebuild.

Although, I've also thought about this:
Fire -> Air -> Fire -> Water -> Earth
The beginning of "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" would start it off. Then, the wind picks up this small small fire, turning into a large blaze (the second part of "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow"). Then it's just the same as the last sequence.

I was researching this the other day, and it seems that most cultures give all four elements an equal ranking and they flow in a circular fashion.  Thus there is no starting and ending points.  Aristotle made this apparently:



But with that said, in Hindi mythos the elements were actually created in a specific order by The Creator, who began with one element and used it to create the next element:
Aether -> Air -> Fire -> Water -> Earth.  

Looks like that's the order you posted above lol

But again, we should ask ourselves: WWBWD?  In 1966, which philosophy would Brian Wilson have bought into?  Is it the Hindu order of how the Elements were created?  Or a more Classic Greek philosophy that all four are equal and cyclic?  

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Yeah, I never bought into the "but a cover is very sturdy and dependable--like Earth!" defense for IWBA. That, to me, is just as laughable and forced as the whole "GV was supposed to be the fifth element...because...reasons" nonsense.

I agree with you but it is interesting to note that many cultures believed there were FIVE elements: Earth, Air, Water, Fire and AETHER or the VOID... or as the Buddhists and Hindi considered it the four elements of matter and then the fifth element that exists beyond matter and the material world.  In this sense, telepathy would be considered that fifth Element and GV perfectly fits that bill.  BW would have probably been aware of this in 66/67... 

Any thoughts on the sequencing of "The Elements"?
I've been trying out a few different things, and conceptually, the thing that makes the most sense to me is this:

Air -> Fire -> Water -> Earth
We have the wind going out and spreading a flame, creating a fire. Then, water comes and washes it away, leaving the people to rebuild.

Although, I've also thought about this:
Fire -> Air -> Fire -> Water -> Earth
The beginning of "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" would start it off. Then, the wind picks up this small small fire, turning into a large blaze (the second part of "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow"). Then it's just the same as the last sequence.

I was researching this the other day, and it seems that most cultures give all four elements an equal ranking and they flow in a circular fashion.  Thus there is no starting and ending points.  Aristotle made this apparently:



But with that said, in Hindi mythos the elements were actually created in a specific order by The Creator, who began with one element and used it to create the next element:
Aether -> Air -> Fire -> Water -> Earth.  

Looks like that's the order you posted above lol

But again, we should ask ourselves: WWBWD?  In 1966, which philosophy would Brian Wilson have bought into?  Is it the Hindu order of how the Elements were created?  Or a more Classic Greek philosophy that all four are equal and cyclic?  

I'm aware there's a fifth element. I just don't buy into the idea that GV was it, or that there even was one. Aether, as I understand it, was a divine material which was said to make up the heavenly bodies. It was "perfect" so it formed into smooth, spherical shapes in the heavens. This has nothing to do with being in love...so the connection is incredibly forced and arbitrary as far as I can see. Plus, again, in 67 the elements was one standalone track. GV was its own completely separate thing. I don't think Brian, even in 2003, would've agreed with this interpretation. If it adds a new layer of meaning to people, fine. But to claim this was Brian's intent all along in the face of so much evidence and common sense pointing to the contrary is something else.

Your connection to the Eastern ideas of elements is interesting tho. I've referred to another Smiley Smiler's theory that Wind Chimes was a song about death. Part of his evidence was some symbolism of Wind Chimes meaning death in Eastern cultures. So, in that context, it's possible Brian was going in an "Eastern direction" with his elements too. Only problem I have is, weren't there more than four elements in ancient Chinese (and, I believe, Hindu) schools of thought? Like Wood and Metal in addition to Earth? That could explain Workshop (needless to say, this theory is extremely unlikely tho) and perhaps the order of the suite. Or I could be talking out of my ass and this is just another red herring

[soniclovenoize]

Well I'm not claiming that, I already said I agreed with you.  I believe GV would have began side B...

But the orignal Asher lyric of Good Vibrations was about telepathy; the fact that it's a love song is incidental.  Or rather, the song proposes that what we perceive as love is actually telepathy...   

Also, again if we should consider this seriously, we should look at what context Brian was putting this in.  Was it more likely Brian is referencing Chinese mysticism or white-washed Westernized Hindi spirituality as was the counter-culture at the time?  I'd say the later (no offense to Brian Wilson). 

[Bicyclerider]

The tapebox for IWBA/FN said "Friday Night (I'm in Great Shape)" not just I'm in Great Shape.

In LLVS there's a press article in April describing The Elements as a four part suite earth/air/fire/water.  That may have been the reporter's order of the elements but he was talking to Brian so I presume that was the planned order.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

The tapebox for IWBA/FN said "Friday Night (I'm in Great Shape)" not just I'm in Great Shape.

In LLVS there's a press article in April describing The Elements as a four part suite earth/air/fire/water.  That may have been the reporter's order of the elements but he was talking to Brian so I presume that was the planned order.

That could just mean Friday Night was a section of Great Shape. Like, the parentheses indicating which track that this section (which is called Friday Night) goes into.

I find it interesting that the order this reporter gives is the order of the third suite in BWPS. I always thought it was a huge mistake to put Veggies right after Surf's Up, but if Brian had planned it all along for the elements to be in this specific order it makes slightly more sense. Only problem then, is that Fire was billed as The Elements Part 1.

[Bicyclerider]

Well Friday night/workshop is the one that would make sense in I'm in Great Shape along with Barnyard - the problem is the cover tune doesn't really fit with the theme of barnyard animals and barnyard work with tools and fresh clean air.  Recorded at the same date and edited together at the end - can we still postulate that IWBA was not meant to go with Friday Night, that they were meant for separate songs?

[SenorPotatoHead]

I know there are those who disagree, but I feel one can postulate ANYTHING when it comes to Smile (just don't claim it is FACT).  Why couldn't I"m In Great Shape have followed the Elements?  If one positions Mrs. O'Leary's Cow at the end of the Elements, with I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (Workshop) constituting the POSTULATED rebuilding after the fire following it and leading into the Great Shape/Barnyard piece - well then that's alright.  You can dig it, until you don't, and then you can shuffle the deck once more and come up with a brand new POSTULATION.  There are no rules In Smileville....other than not claiming FACT where FACT is not in fact factually factible.   

[Mikie]

One can postulate ANYTHING when it comes to Smile (just don't claim it is FACT). You can dig it, until you don't, and then you can shuffle the deck once more and come up with a brand new POSTULATION. 

THAT is a fact.  SMiLE is whatever you want it to be.  And every possible angle has already been explored many times over.

[Phoenix]

Well Friday night/workshop is the one that would make sense in I'm in Great Shape along with Barnyard - the problem is the cover tune doesn't really fit with the theme of barnyard animals and barnyard work with tools and fresh clean air.  Recorded at the same date and edited together at the end - can we still postulate that IWBA was not meant to go with Friday Night, that they were meant for separate songs?

As I said earlier:

"I Wanna Be Around" makes perfect sense (to me) where it eventually wound up.  Because together, the first section talks about "great" physical health, while the second (and third) refer to the sorry emotional state and humorously dealing with it through actual physical repairs. 

The tapebox for IWBA/FN said "Friday Night (I'm in Great Shape)" not just I'm in Great Shape.

I appreciate the clarification on the chronology, especially as it backs up what I've felt since hearing BWPS. 

[soniclovenoize]

Well Friday night/workshop is the one that would make sense in I'm in Great Shape along with Barnyard - the problem is the cover tune doesn't really fit with the theme of barnyard animals and barnyard work with tools and fresh clean air.  Recorded at the same date and edited together at the end - can we still postulate that IWBA was not meant to go with Friday Night, that they were meant for separate songs?

Not speaking for everyone here, but when I'm saying "IWBA" I mean the two-part piece of "I Wanna Be Around/Workshop Song".  I'm not just meaning one singular piece.

[soniclovenoize]

I know there are those who disagree, but I feel one can postulate ANYTHING when it comes to Smile (just don't claim it is FACT).  Why couldn't I"m In Great Shape have followed the Elements?  If one positions Mrs. O'Leary's Cow at the end of the Elements, with I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (Workshop) constituting the POSTULATED rebuilding after the fire following it and leading into the Great Shape/Barnyard piece - well then that's alright.  You can dig it, until you don't, and then you can shuffle the deck once more and come up with a brand new POSTULATION.  There are no rules In Smileville....other than not claiming FACT where FACT is not in fact factually factible.   

As I said earlier in the thread, there is no absolutes but you can look at the probability of something happening. 

What you just postulated above is possible, but less probable than it appearing in I'm in Great Shape. 

[SenorPotatoHead]

I said it earlier as well, others have said it earlier than that. 
I disagree that every conceivable combination has been tried - I personally have never heard a mix where anyone has separated the Cabin Essence verses from Iron Horse/Coulee Dam (doesn't mean no one has, just that I have never heard it) - I have wanted to try this myself as I think the CE verses would go nicely with IIGS/BY, et al.    Iron Horse and Coulee Dam could fit nicely in Worms.....there are nearly endless combinations of the individual pieces. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I have to say that I was drawn back to the site by this thread. A few thoughts:

I do think that Brian was working on songs rather than suites.

Memo: I think that no matter who wrote the 1966 memo regarding the songs, the memo is important and instructive. That being said, I don’t think that the memo necessarily tells us anything about the order of the songs, hence the note about the correct playing order.

Do You Like Worms?: Personally, I have a hard time seeing this song as the album opener. It’s too slow and Brian tended to open his albums with a fairly hard hitting track or, in the case of Surfer Girl, a major single. Worms was neither of those. Also, I can’t even imagine a version of Smile that doesn’t pair up Worms with Cabinessence. Position Cabinessnce after Worms and you’ll see how beautifully they both complement each other. Same theme, and the chords fit together. I think this is why at listening parties people seemed to hear parts of the two songs mixed up because I can imagine Brian played them back to back a lot. That being said, I always considered Cabinessence to be more of a final track of a side song, not track 2.
 
On the other hand, DYLW does have the lyric, “Once upon the Sandwich Isles” in it. Now imagine that lyric were sung first and that the song was the opening track. That would make the first two words of Smile “Once upon.” It seems very Smile-esque and quite Parksian to begin a narrative with “Once upon the Sandwich Isles.” Interestingly, when Brian is singing the verse part in the studio, he sings the “Once upon” lyric not the “Waving from” from.

Heroes and Villains/Vegetables: Many people suggest that Heroes makes the perfect opening track because, for one, it is hard hitting and, on the other hand, it was the planned single. Furthermore, it was the opening of Smiley Smile. So at a certain level, Brian considered H&V to be first track material. Yet if we use Smiley Smile as a litmus, I wonder how far we take it. Could it follow that track 2 of Smile might have been Vega-tables?

There is some logic to this, though I’ve never seen a Smile compilation where the two were side by side. Yet on SS they are together and there is a lot of overlap between the two tracks. After all, Heroes once had the “Eat a lot” section that eventually went to Vega-tables. And the Vega-tables demo includes the underlying laughter that Brian eventually incorporated in the Cantina section of Heroes. That they ended up as track one and track two on SS isn’t too surprising. It reminds me of the time that I listened to Neil Young’s Massey Hall concert from the early 70s and heard how Heart of Gold was originally part of his song Man Needs a Maid. When he released Harvest afterwards, they were two separate tracks yet Heart of Gold followed Maid, preserving their connection in some way. While Vega-tables and Villains were probably never one track, they were connected in some ways and then appeared one right after the other on SS.

And while we’re on the subject of Villains, I don’t understand the use of the Smiley version on Smile comps (and yes, while I love BWPS, I don’t understand what was behind the decision to use that version, other than the fact that it was the hit single version). In my opinion, I can’t see Brian using both the chorus of H&V and the Bicycle Rider in DYLW on the same album. And when Smiley H&V and DYLW are placed side by side, I find the result staggeringly repetitive.

Old Master Painter: Despite some objections to its quality, I can’t see it not on Smile. In some ways, it appears very much connected with Villains too. Today I made an edit of Villains where I used the early Smile edit of H&V, removed the fade, placed OMP/YAMS, followed by the Prelude to Fade and then the  Fade. It sounded not bad.

Great Shape: The fact that this was a singular track on the memo is a mystery. Clearly there would have had to have been more to it than the track we have on the Smile box. It seems probable to me that it would have been paired with Barnyard and maybe I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (more on this below). Maybe, as was the case with Worms and Cabinessence, there would have been a return back to the verse (the only part of Shape we have) after a chorus or another section.

I also think that while there have been good mixes of Barnyard with the Brian demo that none of them capture how the final song would have sounded. As Brian himself admits, they hadn’t finished Barnyard yet and there was probably going to be more lyrics (maybe they were written and forgotten). He sung them together on the demo but the lyrics are broken up when they are mixed with the backing track. They probably would have been together on the final track, along with other lyrics.

The Elements: Whether they would have been a “suite” or not, who knows? But they were going to be more than just Fire, otherwise he wouldn’t have called the Fire track Part 1. While I do have a good version that goes from track Vega-tables to track Fire (I tend to cut Vega-tables off before the “ba ba bum” part), I don’t think Vega-tables would have been part of The Elements. It is possible that Brian might have moved Great Shape/Barnyard to the Elements. To me that would make the most sense: Fire, Dada, Shape (with Workshop), Barnyard: Fire, Water, Fresh Air, Earth. Maybe there were more tracks on the way, but there wouldn’t have been much more album space for them.

Child/Wonderful: Yes, it sounds nice on BWPS but BWPS really was looking for those connections. I don’t particularly see them going side by side on Smile because they are so similar. Maybe Child was a cowboy song after all and would have fit in better with the Americana tracks.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I said it earlier as well, others have said it earlier than that. 
I disagree that every conceivable combination has been tried - I personally have never heard a mix where anyone has separated the Cabin Essence verses from Iron Horse/Coulee Dam (doesn't mean no one has, just that I have never heard it) - I have wanted to try this myself as I think the CE verses would go nicely with IIGS/BY, et al.    Iron Horse and Coulee Dam could fit nicely in Worms.....there are nearly endless combinations of the individual pieces. 

I like this idea of your's for Cabin Essence. Any other off the wall SMiLE mix ideas you may have? I'd be interested in trying my hand at them, unless you'd prefer to do the honors yourself?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I have to say that I was drawn back to the site by this thread. A few thoughts:

I do think that Brian was working on songs rather than suites.

Memo: I think that no matter who wrote the 1966 memo regarding the songs, the memo is important and instructive. That being said, I don’t think that the memo necessarily tells us anything about the order of the songs, hence the note about the correct playing order.

Do You Like Worms?: Personally, I have a hard time seeing this song as the album opener. It’s too slow and Brian tended to open his albums with a fairly hard hitting track or, in the case of Surfer Girl, a major single. Worms was neither of those. Also, I can’t even imagine a version of Smile that doesn’t pair up Worms with Cabinessence. Position Cabinessnce after Worms and you’ll see how beautifully they both complement each other. Same theme, and the chords fit together. I think this is why at listening parties people seemed to hear parts of the two songs mixed up because I can imagine Brian played them back to back a lot. That being said, I always considered Cabinessence to be more of a final track of a side song, not track 2.
 
On the other hand, DYLW does have the lyric, “Once upon the Sandwich Isles” in it. Now imagine that lyric were sung first and that the song was the opening track. That would make the first two words of Smile “Once upon.” It seems very Smile-esque and quite Parksian to begin a narrative with “Once upon the Sandwich Isles.” Interestingly, when Brian is singing the verse part in the studio, he sings the “Once upon” lyric not the “Waving from” from.

Heroes and Villains/Vegetables: Many people suggest that Heroes makes the perfect opening track because, for one, it is hard hitting and, on the other hand, it was the planned single. Furthermore, it was the opening of Smiley Smile. So at a certain level, Brian considered H&V to be first track material. Yet if we use Smiley Smile as a litmus, I wonder how far we take it. Could it follow that track 2 of Smile might have been Vega-tables?

There is some logic to this, though I’ve never seen a Smile compilation where the two were side by side. Yet on SS they are together and there is a lot of overlap between the two tracks. After all, Heroes once had the “Eat a lot” section that eventually went to Vega-tables. And the Vega-tables demo includes the underlying laughter that Brian eventually incorporated in the Cantina section of Heroes. That they ended up as track one and track two on SS isn’t too surprising. It reminds me of the time that I listened to Neil Young’s Massey Hall concert from the early 70s and heard how Heart of Gold was originally part of his song Man Needs a Maid. When he released Harvest afterwards, they were two separate tracks yet Heart of Gold followed Maid, preserving their connection in some way. While Vega-tables and Villains were probably never one track, they were connected in some ways and then appeared one right after the other on SS.

And while we’re on the subject of Villains, I don’t understand the use of the Smiley version on Smile comps (and yes, while I love BWPS, I don’t understand what was behind the decision to use that version, other than the fact that it was the hit single version). In my opinion, I can’t see Brian using both the chorus of H&V and the Bicycle Rider in DYLW on the same album. And when Smiley H&V and DYLW are placed side by side, I find the result staggeringly repetitive.

Old Master Painter: Despite some objections to its quality, I can’t see it not on Smile. In some ways, it appears very much connected with Villains too. Today I made an edit of Villains where I used the early Smile edit of H&V, removed the fade, placed OMP/YAMS, followed by the Prelude to Fade and then the  Fade. It sounded not bad.

Great Shape: The fact that this was a singular track on the memo is a mystery. Clearly there would have had to have been more to it than the track we have on the Smile box. It seems probable to me that it would have been paired with Barnyard and maybe I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night (more on this below). Maybe, as was the case with Worms and Cabinessence, there would have been a return back to the verse (the only part of Shape we have) after a chorus or another section.

I also think that while there have been good mixes of Barnyard with the Brian demo that none of them capture how the final song would have sounded. As Brian himself admits, they hadn’t finished Barnyard yet and there was probably going to be more lyrics (maybe they were written and forgotten). He sung them together on the demo but the lyrics are broken up when they are mixed with the backing track. They probably would have been together on the final track, along with other lyrics.

The Elements: Whether they would have been a “suite” or not, who knows? But they were going to be more than just Fire, otherwise he wouldn’t have called the Fire track Part 1. While I do have a good version that goes from track Vega-tables to track Fire (I tend to cut Vega-tables off before the “ba ba bum” part), I don’t think Vega-tables would have been part of The Elements. It is possible that Brian might have moved Great Shape/Barnyard to the Elements. To me that would make the most sense: Fire, Dada, Shape (with Workshop), Barnyard: Fire, Water, Fresh Air, Earth. Maybe there were more tracks on the way, but there wouldn’t have been much more album space for them.

Child/Wonderful: Yes, it sounds nice on BWPS but BWPS really was looking for those connections. I don’t particularly see them going side by side on Smile because they are so similar. Maybe Child was a cowboy song after all and would have fit in better with the Americana tracks.

Thanks for writing up this fantastic reply.

I agree, I don't understand the use of Smiley H&V in BWPS/TSS. It ruins the individuality of both songs and makes it seem like Brian was lazy or losing his touch at the time when that was far from the case.

Aside from similar chords, CE/Worms also have similar motifs of travel. Bikes, Ocean Liners, Iron horses. I agree, these songs are very closely related.

I think the idea that Prayer was originally to lead into Worms is interesting. Until reading this thread, I never would've thought about it. But now I'm 50/50 on whether H&V or Worms should kick off a "definitive" SMiLE. Your insight about the "Once upon" lyrics only strengthens my newfound belief in Worms as Track #1.

OMP kinda fits with He Gives Speeches, and YAMS kinda ties into Margarita from H&V and/or Wonderful. Just a thought. I still think OMP/YAMS is a weak spot that detracts from the overall journey, but that's just my opinion.

I agree with your decision to exclude Veggies from The Elements. But then you threw me for a loop saying GS/Barnyard might've been elements. Totally disagree. As I've said before, I highly doubt any vocals were to be recorded for this track. Just because a song references "fresh clean air" that doesn't make it the Air element. It's just a lyric in another song. Perhaps an intentional motif loosely connecting two otherwise totally unrelated songs, but nothing more. I must ask, on what criteria then, do you base your exclusion of Veggies? If the memo, then why include GS which is similarly listed as a separate track?

To me, what makes it crystal clear that Child/Wonderful go together is the similarities. I must point out that your reasoning again seems contradictory here. You put Cabin and Worms together for being similar, yet Child and Wonderful together is out of the question? I'm not following you on this point.