How would BB history be different if Mike had received proper cowriting credits?

[guitarfool2002]

Do you know the story of Leon Russell and "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)"? You don't see it often, I first heard it from an interview with Cher who witnessed it as she would often be there at Spector's sessions with Sonny Bono.

The song is credited to Barry-Greenwich-Spector, and as on most of Spector's 60's Wall Of Sound sessions, Jack Nitschke was the arranger who put all the instruments together.

So the song is rolling along, and for the ending fade as we all know Darlene Love is ad-libbing phrases on "baby please come home!", Hal Blaine is going crazy on drum fills, the whole thing is erupting in that wall of sound...

And in the middle of all that chaos, Leon Russell starts ad-libbing a piano part, classically-tinged yet sounding like he's banging the hell out of that piano and playing beautiful melodies, again, off-the-cuff.

According to Cher, Phil Spector was so moved by what he heard Leon play, when that take was done he pulled out his checkbook and wrote Leon a check for $100 on the spot. That piano part which wasn't in the score became a perfect close to a monumental record, as mentioned it brought the whole thing together at the end, and was a crucial part.

It's exactly the concept Tony Asher mentions with arrangers and musicians perhaps getting some type of royalty for this kind of contribution, since it is an original composition within a song that becomes an essential element of the performance on record.

And that song, as it's in dozens of movies and gets played constantly every Christmas season and has been a perennial Christmas favorite for decades, is a real money-maker in terms of royalties and publishing.

Beyond Spector paying Leon 100 dollars out of his own pocket, according to the logic around WIBN, then Leon Russell could file and win a claim for songwriting credit on that song, since without his mini-concerto on the piano the record would not have been the same.

Unfortunately in the record biz, that's not how it works. Leon got paid his union scale for playing the session, Spector out of character gave him a 100 dollar bonus, and that's where it ends.

[Cam Mott]

I assume Mike's claim was lyrical. Mike may have been happy with 1% for all we know, the eyewitness claimed Mike did not claim any percentages.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Do you know the story of Leon Russell and "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)"? You don't see it often, I first heard it from an interview with Cher who witnessed it as she would often be there at Spector's sessions with Sonny Bono.

The song is credited to Barry-Greenwich-Spector, and as on most of Spector's 60's Wall Of Sound sessions, Jack Nitschke was the arranger who put all the instruments together.

So the song is rolling along, and for the ending fade as we all know Darlene Love is ad-libbing phrases on "baby please come home!", Hal Blaine is going crazy on drum fills, the whole thing is erupting in that wall of sound...

And in the middle of all that chaos, Leon Russell starts ad-libbing a piano part, classically-tinged yet sounding like he's banging the hell out of that piano and playing beautiful melodies, again, off-the-cuff.

According to Cher, Phil Spector was so moved by what he heard Leon play, when that take was done he pulled out his checkbook and wrote Leon a check for $100 on the spot. That piano part which wasn't in the score became a perfect close to a monumental record, as mentioned it brought the whole thing together at the end, and was a crucial part.

It's exactly the concept Tony Asher mentions with arrangers and musicians perhaps getting some type of royalty for this kind of contribution, since it is an original composition within a song that becomes an essential element of the performance on record.

And that song, as it's in dozens of movies and gets played constantly every Christmas season and has been a perennial Christmas favorite for decades, is a real money-maker in terms of royalties and publishing.

Beyond Spector paying Leon 100 dollars out of his own pocket, according to the logic around WIBN, then Leon Russell could file and win a claim for songwriting credit on that song, since without his mini-concerto on the piano the record would not have been the same.

Unfortunately in the record biz, that's not how it works. Leon got paid his union scale for playing the session, Spector out of character gave him a 100 dollar bonus, and that's where it ends.

Unfortunately we're not discussing that case. We are discussing WIBN.

[guitarfool2002]

I assume Mike's claim was lyrical. Mike may have been happy with 1% for all we know, the eyewitness claimed Mike did not claim any percentages.

And that's part of the case that needs to be investigated further, I agree - I don't think we know exactly what the numbers or details were short of reading the actual case transcripts and the decision awarding Mike whatever he ended up receiving. At the same time it seems Mike's legal team was pursuing the credit on ridiculous claims, and just like Mike with the songs he knew he wrote lyrics for but wasn't listed on the credits, Tony Asher objected to the way it was being presented knowing he wrote the WIBN lyrics and remembering even where he wrote them and when, and knowing too that the theories offered in court were absurd.

[guitarfool2002]

Unfortunately we're not discussing that case. We are discussing WIBN.

Oh, please.  

We weren't discussing Dierdre either, were we? 

[Cam Mott]

I assume Mike's claim was lyrical. Mike may have been happy with 1% for all we know, the eyewitness claimed Mike did not claim any percentages.

And that's part of the case that needs to be investigated further, I agree - I don't think we know exactly what the numbers or details were short of reading the actual case transcripts and the decision awarding Mike whatever he ended up receiving. At the same time it seems Mike's legal team was pursuing the credit on ridiculous claims, and just like Mike with the songs he knew he wrote lyrics for but wasn't listed on the credits, Tony Asher objected to the way it was being presented knowing he wrote the WIBN lyrics and remembering even where he wrote them and when, and knowing too that the theories offered in court were absurd.

On the other hand we are just assuming Asher was right in claim. I don't have any reason to believe he (edit:) isn't but...

[Robbie Mac]

Do you know the story of Leon Russell and "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)"? You don't see it often, I first heard it from an interview with Cher who witnessed it as she would often be there at Spector's sessions with Sonny Bono.

The song is credited to Barry-Greenwich-Spector, and as on most of Spector's 60's Wall Of Sound sessions, Jack Nitschke was the arranger who put all the instruments together.

So the song is rolling along, and for the ending fade as we all know Darlene Love is ad-libbing phrases on "baby please come home!", Hal Blaine is going crazy on drum fills, the whole thing is erupting in that wall of sound...

And in the middle of all that chaos, Leon Russell starts ad-libbing a piano part, classically-tinged yet sounding like he's banging the hell out of that piano and playing beautiful melodies, again, off-the-cuff.

According to Cher, Phil Spector was so moved by what he heard Leon play, when that take was done he pulled out his checkbook and wrote Leon a check for $100 on the spot. That piano part which wasn't in the score became a perfect close to a monumental record, as mentioned it brought the whole thing together at the end, and was a crucial part.

It's exactly the concept Tony Asher mentions with arrangers and musicians perhaps getting some type of royalty for this kind of contribution, since it is an original composition within a song that becomes an essential element of the performance on record.

And that song, as it's in dozens of movies and gets played constantly every Christmas season and has been a perennial Christmas favorite for decades, is a real money-maker in terms of royalties and publishing.

Beyond Spector paying Leon 100 dollars out of his own pocket, according to the logic around WIBN, then Leon Russell could file and win a claim for songwriting credit on that song, since without his mini-concerto on the piano the record would not have been the same.

Unfortunately in the record biz, that's not how it works. Leon got paid his union scale for playing the session, Spector out of character gave him a 100 dollar bonus, and that's where it ends.

Unfortunately we're not discussing that case. We are discussing WIBN.

It's a relevant comparison whether you like it or not.

[KittyKat]

Many session guitarists and keyboardists and other soloists improvise their solos on the spot. They're not on any music score. That's why they're hired. It's more akin to Mike's occasional sax playing on the records, which don't sound much as though Brian wrote out a part for him. Mike had a borderline case for maybe a tiny percentage of credits due to him writing a few words of lyrics as well as a melody. It's not as important to the structure of the song as his "Round, round, get around, I get around," or "I'm pickin' up good vibrations" (examples of minor lyrical contributions with melodic improv in other Mike co-written songs). It was up to the jury to decide if he deserved anything for that minor contribution to the outro, and they decided in his favor. It was the jury that also awarded him such a large percentage of the split.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Do you know the story of Leon Russell and "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)"? You don't see it often, I first heard it from an interview with Cher who witnessed it as she would often be there at Spector's sessions with Sonny Bono.

The song is credited to Barry-Greenwich-Spector, and as on most of Spector's 60's Wall Of Sound sessions, Jack Nitschke was the arranger who put all the instruments together.

So the song is rolling along, and for the ending fade as we all know Darlene Love is ad-libbing phrases on "baby please come home!", Hal Blaine is going crazy on drum fills, the whole thing is erupting in that wall of sound...

And in the middle of all that chaos, Leon Russell starts ad-libbing a piano part, classically-tinged yet sounding like he's banging the hell out of that piano and playing beautiful melodies, again, off-the-cuff.

According to Cher, Phil Spector was so moved by what he heard Leon play, when that take was done he pulled out his checkbook and wrote Leon a check for $100 on the spot. That piano part which wasn't in the score became a perfect close to a monumental record, as mentioned it brought the whole thing together at the end, and was a crucial part.

It's exactly the concept Tony Asher mentions with arrangers and musicians perhaps getting some type of royalty for this kind of contribution, since it is an original composition within a song that becomes an essential element of the performance on record.

And that song, as it's in dozens of movies and gets played constantly every Christmas season and has been a perennial Christmas favorite for decades, is a real money-maker in terms of royalties and publishing.

Beyond Spector paying Leon 100 dollars out of his own pocket, according to the logic around WIBN, then Leon Russell could file and win a claim for songwriting credit on that song, since without his mini-concerto on the piano the record would not have been the same.

Unfortunately in the record biz, that's not how it works. Leon got paid his union scale for playing the session, Spector out of character gave him a 100 dollar bonus, and that's where it ends.

Unfortunately we're not discussing that case. We are discussing WIBN.

It's a relevant comparison whether you like it or not.

And Mike contributed to WIBN and received credit/compensation regardless if you or Guitarfool like it or not.

Yes, it's a good example but WIBN was taken to a court of law and Mike got his due.....

Many folks in music history should do the same.

[clack]

I'll go along with guitarfool to an extent, in that royalties are one thing and not my concern, but I'd like the writing credits on songs to reflect actual contributions -- and for the same reason I'm interested in sessionagraphy.

To my mind, WIBN is a Wilson/Asher composition. If Mike  ad-libbed "good night baby, sleep tight baby" on the outro of 'Summertime Blues, say, the credit should still read (Corchran/Capehart).

Again, I'm not talking legalities here -- the jury ruled that Mike was entitled to claim credit and royalties. But for me, (B. Wilson/T. Asher/M. Love) doesn't reflect reality. Legal reality, yes, but not musical reality.

[guitarfool2002]

Many session guitarists and keyboardists and other soloists improvise their solos on the spot. They're not on any music score. That's why they're hired. It's more akin to Mike's occasional sax playing on the records, which don't sound much as though Brian wrote out a part for him. Mike had a borderline case for maybe a tiny percentage of credits due to him writing a few words of lyrics as well as a melody. It's not as important to the structure of the song as his "Round, round, get around, I get around," or "I'm pickin' up good vibrations" (examples of minor lyrical contributions with melodic improv in other Mike co-written songs). It was up to the jury to decide if he deserved anything for that minor contribution to the outro, and they decided in his favor. It was the jury that also awarded him such a large percentage of the split.

Right! And the point Asher made in that '96 interview was that vocalists do that same thing in the studio, and the issue becomes at what point does it go beyond a one-off improv into getting actual credit, and where is the standard or precedent on which future claims can be judged? Because if the standard gets applied as loose as some are suggesting here, you would literally have hundreds of thousands of musicians through the years seeking credit and back payments for everything from guitar solos to drum fills to as Asher said a "bom, bom, dit dit" vocal phrase.

And it's just not part of the deal, as you said. They're paid for hire to play and contribute, it ends there, if they do get residual payments those most often came from usage fees and broadcast or syndication residuals, and even then not every musician had those negotiated through whatever union or organization they had dealt with when they did the session. It would be chaos if every improvised part that became a key part of a record were suddenly considered a composition of its own due to the importance it played in the song. Chaos.

What I'm really curious about now is this: *Exactly what percentage of WIBN did Mike get as part of the judgement?* Does anyone know?

The overall judgement itself, remember, reflected (I believe it was) half of what Brian's team won in his settlement, and Mike's team went on the split which was what someone promised them in return for Mike testifying for Brian against Irving/Almo.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Can't you guys just enjoy the music?

Credit, when it comes to popular music, is a messy, ugly, and often unfair thing, and with The Beach Boys in particular, obsessing over it is like taking a prize winning poodle and then shaving it and spray painting it bright pink.

There is no exact science for credit when it comes to rock n roll and popular music in general. Mike plead his case in a court of law and won. Deal with it!!!

Or file a lawsuit against him. If he's nice enough maybe he'll sign some autographs for you on the courthouse steps.

[guitarfool2002]

I'll go along with guitarfool to an extent, in that royalties are one thing and not my concern, but I'd like the writing credits on songs to reflect actual contributions -- and for the same reason I'm interested in sessionagraphy.

To my mind, WIBN is a Wilson/Asher composition. If Mike  ad-libbed "good night baby, sleep tight baby" on the outro of 'Summertime Blues, say, the credit should still read (Corchran/Capehart).

Again, I'm not talking legalities here -- the jury ruled that Mike was entitled to claim credit and royalties. But for me, (B. Wilson/T. Asher/M. Love) doesn't reflect reality. Legal reality, yes, but not musical reality.

Thank you for adding this, I never thought of it that way related to cover songs! Again, where does the line get drawn when someone adds or changes lyrics in a similar, minor way to a song they're covering but didn't write? That is a terrific example you gave, and consider every other successful cover version of a song where a lyric or phrase was added to a cover version similar to WIBN's "good night baby" coda...if everyone improvising or adjusting a lyric or adding a melody to create a "new" version of the song, in their own image went looking for writer's credit for that part, it would be chaos.

And it just simply is not handled that way, for very specific (and legally sound) reasons. Musically speaking, The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys added lyrics to the song "Wipe Out" which had never existed, and had a chart hit with it. The lyrics were crucial to the record becoming a "modern" hit in the 80's versus an instrumental.

Do the Beach Boys and Fat Boys get credited as co-writers of Wipe Out?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It doesn't matter where or how the hell it came up be it an "ad lib" or part of the sacred writing session. Mike's contributions are there on the published sheet music in lyrical and melodic fashion and is therefore part of the song's composition.

[Cam Mott]

What I had heard from someone was Mike's people offered a low ball settlement even after being screwed over again which was declined and they asked no percentage but the jury or judge awarded some sort of split based on the number of coauthors. Anybody know?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Another interesting question is: do we know of any other people who have gone to court seeking songwriting credit/compensation who have lost?

[guitarfool2002]

Can't you guys just enjoy the music?

Credit, when it comes to popular music, is a messy, ugly, and often unfair thing, and with The Beach Boys in particular, obsessing over it is like taking a prize winning poodle and then shaving it and spray painting it bright pink.

There is no exact science for credit when it comes to rock n roll and popular music in general. Mike plead his case in a court of law and won. Deal with it!!!

Or file a lawsuit against him. If he's nice enough maybe he'll sign some autographs for you on the courthouse steps.

Hold on a minute: I don't think you're considering part of the actual case that was filed and attempted to be argued in court.

This whole sidebar on WIBN started flaring up when you suggested the reply to Tony Asher can be "tough sh*t", and Mike got awarded a share so Tony shouldn't be concerned or even upset with it.

But - consider that there was more in the claims than "good night baby"

Yes, that ending phrase is what the issue of that song centered on, but (and this can be checked) the whole bathroom phone call conspiracy thing came as Mike's team was arguing that besides improvising "good night baby...", that Mike ALSO took part in adding or at least editing other lyrics in that song.

And you have Tony Asher testifying and being questioned under oath in court, listening as he knew he wrote those lyrics without Mike, he knew Mike added the phrase at the end, but Mike's team was also claiming additional contributions were made and should be credited to Mike...and Tony rightfully knew that was bullshit. Then you have a lawyer introducing a conspiracy theory about how Mike contributed to the song over the phone, and Tony objected to that.

As he should. So it's not "tough sh*t" when someone in a court of law tries to suggest something other than the truth that you know because you were the sole writer of the lyrics, yet someone else was trying to claim he had "edited" or "added" things to your work which you know didn't happen. And that was in addition to the "good night" stuff which Tony never argued Mike added while cutting the vocals in the studio.

It's the attempt to overcredit Mike for things he didn't write or do in the song in court that angered Tony. Let's get that straight first. Mike got credit for his "good night", but that wasn't the full extent of what they were originally claiming he did for the song's creation in court. Again, the implication was that Mike added and edited other parts, and wanted credit for that too.

That's about it.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I understand all that but this is really, in the end, about endlessly debating what is on vinyl: Mike's coda.... Ive not spoken to anything else but that. Courtroom shenanigans are one thing, but in the end Mike won credit for his coda..... which is a part of the song's composition, like it or not. I only jump in when someone tries to dissect that coda as not being a part of the song, blah blah. If someone dislikes Mike, fine. But it's still a part of the song.

Rock and roll seems to be a big "tough s*it to many, which is why I used the phrase... But this situation went to court and the jury decided what it did. Deal with it. It's not like Tony Asher's reputation as a lyricist has suffered. Pet Sounds is still a Wilson/Asher creation by and large. There are probably better, unresolved examples of similar situations to discuss.... I wonder what would happen if Dave Davies stepped into a courtroom with a guitar to demonstrate which Kinks songs originated from his riffs, parts, ideas....

[Cam Mott]

In the big picture though I don't think the big problem was Mike getting too much credit. He should only what is due and overall he asked for much less than he was due.

[bgas]

In the big picture though I don't think the big problem was Mike getting too much credit. He should only what is due and overall he asked for much less than he was due.

Got proof?

[Cam Mott]

In the big picture though I don't think the big problem was Mike getting too much credit. He should only what is due and overall he asked for much less than he was due.

Got proof?

He won in court and offered to settle for less than he was eventually awarded.

[Dancing Bear]

I've seen the whole songwriting issue being dismissed out of hand because of 'Wouldn't it be Nice', but now we're reaching a whole new level. 

And we're back to Exhibit A, Wouldn't It Be Nice! 

[bgas]

In the big picture though I don't think the big problem was Mike getting too much credit. He should only what is due and overall he asked for much less than he was due.

Got proof?

He won in court and offered to settle for less than he was eventually awarded.

You're talking $$. I'm  thinking too many  credits.  Figures

[Cam Mott]

In the big picture though I don't think the big problem was Mike getting too much credit. He should only what is due and overall he asked for much less than he was due.

Got proof?

He won in court and offered to settle for less than he was eventually awarded.

You're talking $$. I'm  thinking too many  credits.  Figures

How about as much song credit as he was due but  asked for less money credit than he was due?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'll go along with guitarfool to an extent, in that royalties are one thing and not my concern, but I'd like the writing credits on songs to reflect actual contributions -- and for the same reason I'm interested in sessionagraphy.

To my mind, WIBN is a Wilson/Asher composition. If Mike  ad-libbed "good night baby, sleep tight baby" on the outro of 'Summertime Blues, say, the credit should still read (Corchran/Capehart).

Again, I'm not talking legalities here -- the jury ruled that Mike was entitled to claim credit and royalties. But for me, (B. Wilson/T. Asher/M. Love) doesn't reflect reality. Legal reality, yes, but not musical reality.

Thank you for adding this, I never thought of it that way related to cover songs! Again, where does the line get drawn when someone adds or changes lyrics in a similar, minor way to a song they're covering but didn't write? That is a terrific example you gave, and consider every other successful cover version of a song where a lyric or phrase was added to a cover version similar to WIBN's "good night baby" coda...if everyone improvising or adjusting a lyric or adding a melody to create a "new" version of the song, in their own image went looking for writer's credit for that part, it would be chaos.

And it just simply is not handled that way, for very specific (and legally sound) reasons. Musically speaking, The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys added lyrics to the song "Wipe Out" which had never existed, and had a chart hit with it. The lyrics were crucial to the record becoming a "modern" hit in the 80's versus an instrumental.

Do the Beach Boys and Fat Boys get credited as co-writers of Wipe Out?

Something similar to that ^ happened on the Summer In Paradise album, specifically with "Under The Boardwalk". Mike Love wrote some new words - I guess you could consider it a verse - and the credit reads Artie Resnick/Kenny Young/Mike Love.

OK, back to the debate....