Is Carl Lying?

[Dancing Bear]

We rely too much on the perceptions of a former-anfetamine-adicted-brainwashed-by-Landy bulshitter like Brian Douglas Wilson. He proved too many times that his memory can't be trusted. Next week he'll say that Rick and Blondie hated Smile.

Between Brian and Carl, I trust Carl's word.

[Daniel S.]

  And lastly, the album offered only one really good chicken-dancing opportunity ("Barnyard").

That's some funny sh*t.

[Sir Rob]

Al has said a few times that he felt that California Girls was the best example of progressive music linked with commercial appeal, and should have been where the Beach Boys stayed - which makes me think he must have thought the Smile music too far out for the Beach Boys.  Doesn't mean he didn't like it though.

If that's true, that's pretty damning.  Just ridiculous to think that the group should have stayed in that place throughout the late 60s.

[Cam Mott]

The Boys have consistantly said, over the past 40 years, they liked it inspite of a few qualms [very, very few].  It seems to me that it didn't matter what the others thought, whether they didn't like it or some small aspect of it [edit: or all absolutely loved and supported it with all their souls],  Brian did what he wanted and he had the Boys do what he wanted, and the Boys did what he wanted,  to the point of their humiliation even.  Brian's sensitivity to their feelings and wishes is a bunch of bunk imo, so I'm not seeing how their like or dislike had any leverage.  Brian didn't want it, and said so for the same 40 years, and that's why it went south. 

Anyway....

[MBE]

Bruce:  said in Mojo around 1995 that he hated the grunting session. Bruce has also said Smiley is far better. So I don't think he dug it.
Mike: We know didn't like some lyrics, but I have heard him say good things about various cuts like "Heroes". Remember that Wally Heider session speach has the others, including Brian, on it , so it was probably meant in fun. People do forget that he  did eventually agree to sing on "Cabinessence". If he hated Van Dyke so much why did he use him on Summer In Paradise? (Ok bad example as that album would kill anyone off). As with Pet Sounds Mike's dissention and influence has been overstated. Afterall if Brian had wanted it out in 1967 it would have came out in 1967.
Al: He seems to have been the one who finally came around now with things like Smile or Dennis' work. Remember he was not a full business partner, until around the end of '67.
Carl : His support was never questioned except for in the Brian's-Landy's autobiography. I think he was a sincere person.
Dennis: You know loved it. It was him, not Bruce, who was Brian's biggest fan.
Brian:  Has said more bad things about Smile then anyone else really. This was probably because he was hurt by the memories of the sessions. Van Dyke bowing out was to me the thing that upset him most.

[Sir Rob]

Brian:  Has said more bad things about Smile then anyone else really. This was probably because he was hurt by the memories of the sessions. Van Dyke bowing out was to me the thing that upset him most.

Whatever the ins and outs of who said or did what and who, if anyone, is to blame etc - IMO Brian's attitude to Smile down the years was one born of pain and regret.  This was the beginning of BW's downhill slide, both creative and personal.  Even MIke Love described Heroes and Villains as (forgive me if I don't write this absolutely word for word verbatim) "the last of Brian's real dynamism".

[Mitchell]

In 1967 Bruce said to the UK press (it was when they were promoting Then I Kissed Her, begrudgingly) that "I have some SMiLE music that will blow your mind." (something like that). Sounds supportive to me.

[Surfer Joe]

I think there's a tremendous temptation to oversimplify things, especially when the truth- which is a highly subjective matter anyway, in this case- is unobtainable.

No quote here or there- even a 1966 or 1967 quote- is ultimately going to prove "support" or "non-support", or reveal the extent of it, or demonstrate how important a factor it was or wasn't. Obviously by 1968 or so everyone must have known a terrible mistake had been made.

When the album essentially became a directed solo project, Brian wasn't able to bring it off by himself, and never would have been able.  That's the only statement I think is really safe, and I'm sure some will take exception to even that.

The big problem with opinions is that the other guy's got one, too.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Al has said a few times that he felt that California Girls was the best example of progressive music linked with commercial appeal, and should have been where the Beach Boys stayed - which makes me think he must have thought the Smile music too far out for the Beach Boys. 

First, let me say that I love SMiLE, wish it would've been released in 1967, and feel that it's Brian's best work. However...

Sometimes I think like the quote above regarding Al's feelings. Because SMiLE turned out to be such a debacle and damaged Brian's psychey, I sometimes wonder what The Beach Boys' career would've been like WITHOUT SMiLE.

The Beach Boys went a year and a few months from the release of Pet Sounds to Smiley Smile. Back in those days, that was good for about two new albums. What if Brian never met Van Dyke Parks at that party, never asked him to write lyrics, and decided to stick with Love, Asher, himself, or somebody else. What if Brian continued to produce music a la Summer Days & Summer Nights, Pet Sounds, and even "Good Vibrations". You know, commercial, ground breaking, accessible, Beach Boys' sounding music.  I'm not talking "Fun, Fun, Fun", or even "Help Me Rhonda", but maybe "Let Him Run Wild" or "Wouldn't It Be Nice".

If you do the math, that would mean about 25 new RELEASED songs from Brian Wilson from late 1966 to mid-1967. Probably four or five hit singles. Probably two hit albums. But that means you would have to sacrifice the SMiLE music. Would you do it? Do you ever wonder what The Beach Boys' career would've been like with no SMiLE? Just continuing for another year with the great music that Brian was churning out?

I repeat that I love SMiLE; I "get" SMiLE. But every once in a while, as I'm listening to "Surf's Up", and not exactly being "touched" by the lyrics, I say to myself, "I wonder what this song would've sounded like as a love song", with Beach Boys' lyrics like "Kiss Me Baby", "Please Let Me Wonder", or "God Only Knows". Would I like the song (or some of the other SMiLE songs) better with more accessible lyrics? Do I sound like Mike Love?

I'm not trying to disparage SMiLE. Anybody else ever have these thoughts? Kind of like Al was saying...

[Daniel S.]

California Girls is an amazing song, so I don't know why its being trashed.

[Surfer Joe]

I'd certainly trade the unfinished SMiLE for two or even one more finished album(s) in the Pet Sounds or Summer Days modes.

SMiLE is utterly amazing as both a later-finished and an unfinished piece of work, but the style is not as important to me as substance, and the style and substance of the work leading up to it leave absolutely nothing to be desired, for me.  Plenty of bands were demonstrating at the time that ceaseless change wasn't necessary commercially or artistically. 

The style of SMiLE was unusually substantial in that it was so completely different and innovative, but what matters most to me is the quality of the songwriting and production, and the heart that was in it.  Would I trade an unfinished "Worms" for a finished piece of the quality and style of "Girl Don't Tell Me" or "Yuo Still Believe In Me"?  Sure- but I don't know if that was ever an option.

[MBE]

In 1967 Bruce said to the UK press (it was when they were promoting Then I Kissed Her, begrudgingly) that "I have some SMiLE music that will blow your mind." (something like that). Sounds supportive to me.

Bruce has been really changable. I mean the quotes I have and the quotes you have are probably both true. I mean in 1971, 1975, and 1995 I read interviews were he is down on doing an oldies format. Then I have read many others were he defends the old songs. I just can't get a handle on what he thinks.  Even if he didn't like Smile, he was still the "new guy" so I don't know if what he felt meant much to Brian. Probably like anyone else he changes his mind at times.

[MBE]

Brian:  Has said more bad things about Smile then anyone else really. This was probably because he was hurt by the memories of the sessions. Van Dyke bowing out was to me the thing that upset him most.

Whatever the ins and outs of who said or did what and who, if anyone, is to blame etc - IMO Brian's attitude to Smile down the years was one born of pain and regret.  This was the beginning of BW's downhill slide, both creative and personal.  Even MIke Love described Heroes and Villains as (forgive me if I don't write this absolutely word for word verbatim) "the last of Brian's real dynamism".

I do agree with you about why Brian was down on it. I just don't know if his perceptions reflect the reality of the times or what he has been told since.

[shelter]

People do forget that he  did eventually agree to sing on "Cabinessence". If he hated Van Dyke so much why did he use him on Summer In Paradise? (Ok bad example as that album would kill anyone off).

Mike always said he liked Van Dyke as a person but that he just wasn't into some of his lyrics.

[Sheriff John Stone]

If he hated Van Dyke so much why did he use him on Summer In Paradise? (Ok bad example as that album would kill anyone off).

No, it's NOT a bad example. It's a good example. Of Van Dyke Parks' hypocrisy.

I have problems listening to VDP. He's a lot like Brian in that you never know if what's coming out of his mouth is the truth. Brian flat out lies but VDP uses his clever speaking ability to take shots without being direct.

I'm assuming the only reason VDP played on Summer In Paradise is because of his connection with Terry Melcher, whatever that was in 1992. On SIP, Brian wasn't there, Dennis was dead, and Al was asked to not come. That leaves Carl, Bruce, and Michael Edward Love. VDP didn't contribute to the writing. Did he need the money? When you hear VDP diss Mike Love in SMiLE interviews, you wonder how he could stand being in the same room with the guy. He probably did his part when Mike wasn't there...

[Surfer Joe]

I don't agree with the lying and hypocrisy charges. 

Brian certainly has problems with memory and is inconsistent; I don't know if that rises to the level of lying, which I think of as a more deliberate and calculated act.   

As for hypocrisy, I guess we're all hypocrites, since no one is completely consistent, and no one is able to represent their own values a hundred percent of the time.  But I definitely don't think it's a defining characteristic of Van Dyke's, and I've always found him very direct and honest about his own feelings about things, including Mike, in the interviews I've read. 
If playing with someone you've criticized in the past makes you a hypocrite, then hypocrisy is the defining characteristic of nearly everyone in nearly every band.

Just another subjective matter, I guess. 

[Lorenschwartz]

unfortunately Brian's bro Carl & his mom didn't live to see the sea tides change...in Bri's favor.

maybe then, we would've seen a more confident Carl Wilson gloating and waxing nostalgic concerning the Smile era. THat said, I believe if Dennis hadn't passed away, he would've probably kicked the whole Landy crew's asses & Smile wouldve come out sometime
in the late 80's, early 90's when the public was more ready for it.

And NO KOKOMO WITHOUT BRIAN NOR DENNIS.
f*** JOHN STAMOS. DENNIS WOULD'VE KICKED HIS BUTT TOO.

[endofposts]

But Brian would have had his problems if Smile existed or not.  That's just where his life was heading, whether it was due to drugs or mental illness or both.  It was happening well before Smile, but came to a head then.  Brian also lost confidence in his ability to compete in the marketplace and have hit records.  No matter what approach he took post-PS, that would have been true.  The Beach Boys were fading, and would have even if Brian came up with something more readily accessible than "Smile."  That's probably why he had the Beach Boys do a cover of "The Letter" -- he felt that the Box Tops were writing more commercial material at that point than he could.

As for Van Dyke, I don't think he dictated the entire direction of Smile.  If Van Dyke weren't there, you probably would have had an LP full of "Vegtables."  The health kick/elements thing still would have been there, because that was more Brian's idea.  The Americana part was more Van Dyke's, but it turned out in fairly commercial fashion on "Heroes & Villains."  Also, I think Mike Love likes Van Dyke more than Van Dyke likes him.  Mike is just rather insensitive.  But he has said he genuinely likes Van Dyke Parks as a person, and enjoys his sense of humor.  He just didn't know what Van Dyke was trying to say with some of his lyrics.  But even at that, Mike sang them.   I think Van Dyke tends to assign too much blame to Mike and the Beach Boys for the reason Smile was not finished. 

[Glenn Greenberg]

Steve Desper has said that Carl was very disappointed and frustrated with Brian for not going back and completing SMiLE, so I've taken that to mean that Carl was honest and sincere in IJWMFTT.

[Reverend Joshua Sloane]

First, let me say that I love SMiLE, wish it would've been released in 1967, and feel that it's Brian's best work. However...

Sometimes I think like the quote above regarding Al's feelings. Because SMiLE turned out to be such a debacle and damaged Brian's psychey, I sometimes wonder what The Beach Boys' career would've been like WITHOUT SMiLE.

The Beach Boys went a year and a few months from the release of Pet Sounds to Smiley Smile. Back in those days, that was good for about two new albums. What if Brian never met Van Dyke Parks at that party, never asked him to write lyrics, and decided to stick with Love, Asher, himself, or somebody else. What if Brian continued to produce music a la Summer Days & Summer Nights, Pet Sounds, and even "Good Vibrations". You know, commercial, ground breaking, accessible, Beach Boys' sounding music.  I'm not talking "Fun, Fun, Fun", or even "Help Me Rhonda", but maybe "Let Him Run Wild" or "Wouldn't It Be Nice".

If you do the math, that would mean about 25 new RELEASED songs from Brian Wilson from late 1966 to mid-1967. Probably four or five hit singles. Probably two hit albums. But that means you would have to sacrifice the SMiLE music. Would you do it? Do you ever wonder what The Beach Boys' career would've been like with no SMiLE? Just continuing for another year with the great music that Brian was churning out?

I repeat that I love SMiLE; I "get" SMiLE. But every once in a while, as I'm listening to "Surf's Up", and not exactly being "touched" by the lyrics, I say to myself, "I wonder what this song would've sounded like as a love song", with Beach Boys' lyrics like "Kiss Me Baby", "Please Let Me Wonder", or "God Only Knows". Would I like the song (or some of the other SMiLE songs) better with more accessible lyrics? Do I sound like Mike Love?

I'm not trying to disparage SMiLE. Anybody else ever have these thoughts? Kind of like Al was saying...

GREAT post!

I'd trade SMiLE for two quality albums in the like of Pet Sounds. The whole question is a bit of a dead end. Brian HAD to change at some point. If it wasn't through and with VDP, Michael Vosse, etc then it'd be someone else. I don't think two Pet Sounds can be accomplished, that's why they headed in the different direction. Some of the compositions of SMiLE are overrated anyway.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian also lost confidence in his ability to compete in the marketplace and have hit records.  No matter what approach he took post-PS, that would have been true. 

The Beach Boys were fading, and would have even if Brian came up with something more readily accessible than "Smile." 

As for Van Dyke, I don't think he dictated the entire direction of Smile.  If Van Dyke weren't there, you probably would have had an LP full of "Vegtables." 

forget marie,
       I ALWAYS look forward to your posts and USUALLY agree with them. However, your above statements disagreed with a lot of what I posted, so I thought I'd respond.

Do you really believe that Brian, in 1966, coming off of the chart success of "Sloop John B", "Wouldn't It Be Nice", and "Good Vibrations" (a No. 1 record), lost confidence in his ability to write hit records? I think had he continued the Summer Days & Summer Nights/Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations approach, he/The Beach Boys would've had another 4-5 hit singles and two Top Ten albums. Do I think he could've found a lyricist to accomplish this? Yes, I do.

I never viewed the Beach Boys, coming off of Pet Sounds and "Good Vibrations", as fading. Around that time, weren't they voted as the Top Group in a worldwide poll? With the exception of Carl (who got better with age), all of the Beach Boys were peaking vocally in 1966-67. They were becoming much more accomplished musicians. They were all beginning to write a bit (of course, Brian was already in the cosmos), and I think, even with "Good Vibrations" going to No.1, they viewed their career as just taking off, with their best days ahead of them.

I DO THINK Van Dyke Parks dictated the direction of SMiLE. I've always viewed the SMiLE music as Brian writing music to Van Dyke's words, as opposed to the other way around. Not completely, of course, it was a collaboration. But SMiLE has VDP's influence written all over it. If VDP wasn't there, you would not have had an album full of "Vegetables", you would've had an album full of songs reflecting whatever lyricist Brian chose.

But, like Mr. Phileas Fogg stated in his above post, the issue is a dead end/mute point. But it it's still fun speculating about it...

[Surfer Joe]

Sherriff, I hope you won't slap the cuffs on me if I disagree again!

I don't think Van Dyke dictated anything...I do think he was a big influence, but I don't think "Surf's Up, "Heroes And Villains", "Wind Chimes", "Vegetables", or "Worms" were ever going to bePet Sounds type tracks with any lyricist, and I think that was simply the direction Brian was going, musically. I think Van Dyke's lyrics were perfectly married to what was there melodically, especially in songs like "Heroes", "Wonderful", and "Cabinessence"- can't imagine those with Asher lyrics- and of course Brian's melodies usually came before the words, right?

Brian was a ticking timebomb by 1967; having an unmanageable project on his hands didn't help, but the complexity of the work was his own choice.

As usual, just one man's opinion; worth (at best) the cyber-space it's written on.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Surfer Joe,
          You're right, "dictated" is too strong a word to use. I took that word directly from forget marie's post. Big influence is a better description.

As far as which came first - the music or the words - you wrote "of course Brian's melodies usually came before the words, right?" I don't know if I would say "of course". I will concede that it might be split. I'm trying to think back to the various documentaries, books, and print interviews; I can't think of a specific passage that answers that question. Maybe somebody else can locate one.

I'm also going to semi-agree with you that Brian was a "ticking timebomb" in 1967. However, it is my opinion, that if Brian would've stayed the Summer Days/Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations course for just one more year, and avoided the SMiLE "effects" (we all know what they were), perhaps that timebomb would've been diffused - at least until much more music was released. And I realize I just made a very Mike Love-ish statement.

Again, I'm not dismissing SMiLE, just speculating what life, Brian's life, would've been like without it...

[Surfer Joe]

Yeah, when I said "Brian's melodies usually came before the words, right?" I added the question at the end because I didn't want to make it a blanket statement.  I get the strong impression that it was mostly melody-first from various comments and descriptions, including Van Dyke's statement that his job was to put a syllable everywhere Brian put a note, or something like that.

If you want to say that drugs were a big problem in Brian's life in 1966 and 1967, I'll join you and it'll be you and me against the whole rest of the board.

[Lorenschwartz]

Yeah, when I said "Brian's melodies usually came before the words, right?" I added the question at the end because I didn't want to make it a blanket statement.  I get the strong impression that it was mostly melody-first from various comments and descriptions, including Van Dyke's statement that his job was to put a syllable everywhere Brian put a note, or something like that.

If you want to say that drugs were a big problem in Brian's life in 1966 and 1967, I'll join you and it'll be you and me against the whole rest of the board.

Guys, It was all My fault...i thought Brian's mind was ready.
The Beatles, The Stones, The Doors, Spector, Warhol...he was too talented not to turn on.
 Turns out he never came back.