The Smiley Smile Message Board

Finally got round to seeing the Don Was "IJWMFTT Doc".

In the part when Carl talks about mike love not liking the smile stuff. Carl says "personally i loved it" .

His body language and the tone of his voice suggest to me that he is lying. Anyone else think this or am i imagining it?

Well, I had that same thought, but I don't know....

You've hit on something there!  I think it comes across as him sincerely liking it retrospectively but perhaps not as much at the time as he would like you to think.  But I could be wrong...   

I don't think any of them liked it with the exception of possibly Dennis, it probably seemed like crazy drug music at the time.

Carl's attempts to resurrect Surf's Up though I think probably point to him appreciating the music at least THAT far back, though... so I think it was a thing where at the time, nobody liked it but after it was gone and they moved on, they realized the greatness of what Brian was trying to do. 

In the end, though, I don't think it's black and white, and Carl was just trying to give a black and white answer.  He couldn't very well say "I didn't like it then,  but then a few years later decided I liked it".   

As for Mike, I doubt he EVER liked it.  He probably just got on board to do his part in the band over the  next few years when they performed the stuff and things, but I don't think he would even today point to that album as anything special.

With all that said, I think Brian was hypersensitive to their negative reaction, if Brian was mentally competant at the time he wouldn't care if they liked it or not, he would have done it anyways.  Plus, we've got hours and hours and hours of tapes of Mike saying things like "Bom, de doobe doobie" and "Bom bom bom, bom bom bom bom bom" so he must have not been causing too big of a scene because there he is singing the tracks over and over again in the studio.  I don't know how much more support Brian could have wanted, you can't make somebody like something they don't, but if they're willing to try it and work on it anyways, there's no more you can ask. 

Well he could have actually.  How about:  "I/we didn't like it at the time but in retrospect I/we realise(d) Brian was on to something quite special".

Or even "Hands up, I/we was/were wrong!".

Of course, that's assuming he/they didn't like it at the time.

If we are to believe Brian's recent interviews, Carl apparently was not supportive of the Smile project.  I would reconcile Carl's comment with Brian's this way:  Carl liked the music and lyrics, but agreed with Mike that it was not appropriate for the  Beach Boys.  Carl had a unique point of view during the  Smile era because he was on many of the sessions.  I think he saw the difficulties and self doubt and paranoia that Brian was experiencing during these sessions and may have wanted the project abandoned because of both the toll it was taking on Brian and the increasing likelihood that Brian was not going to be able to complete it. 

Mike has said he liked the music, but didn't like the lyrics - if you believe his current spin on Smile, which is complicated by his legal stance that Smile is a Beach Boys property.

I think you hit it right, bicyclerider.  Carl probably appreciated the artistry and creativity of the Smile music, but just didn't feel that it was appropriate for the group at the time.  Would have been nice if he said that in IJWMFTT, but I think he just felt that it would be easier to make it sound black and white.  Mike didn't like the lyrics, of course.  Seems like Dennis was the only group member who was totally supportive of what Brian was doing (evidenced by several articles during that time).  This is why I find it odd that Brian included the Dennis in the "did not like Smile" group a few years ago, when it's pretty clear that he did.

I think Brian's recent comments have been contradictory, but I think it was Al and Dennis on the "like" side and Mike and Carl on the "uncertain" side.

Carl may have been a late convert, say, in the late '60s/early '70s when the Smile material could be used for the progressive/FM sound the Boys were using during that period. 

I don't think Carl was lying. If he'd wanted to avoid answering the question honestly, he would have simply diverted the interviewer's question as politely as possible. But he said he loved the *Smile* music, so I believe (based on what I know of the man from personal experience) that he was speaking the truth.

In a pre-BWPS interview with Goldmine, Al said SMiLE was just a bunch of interesting fragments, but not worth the trouble of putting together. He also made a big deal about having to grunt like a pig. Doesn't sound too supportive to me.

Interesting question. Because almost everywhere you read about both Pet Sounds and Smile that Mike hated it and called it "Brian's ego music", Al disliked it because it was too progressive for his taste, Dennis loved it because he was Brian's biggest fan and Bruce loved it because, well, Bruce is probably one of the most positive people of the face of the earth. But you never really read what Carl's opinion was...

Carl sure did love Smile, I guess that's why him, Mike, and Al sold their votes on the project to Brian.

In a Q interview last year, Brian said that Mike and Dennis didn't like it.

One thing I always admired about Brian Wilson - he's the best bullshitter in the world.

Al has said a few times that he felt that California Girls was the best example of progressive music linked with commercial appeal, and should have been where the Beach Boys stayed - which makes me think he must have thought the Smile music too far out for the Beach Boys.  Doesn't mean he didn't like it though.

Al has said many times that he likes the Smile material, but the thought of putting it together was daunting.

Remember the interview with Al around the time of the Good Vibrations box set? He was going on and on about what tracks were what and "wrong versions were used" and such. If he didn't like the music, he sure did know a lot about it.

Carl played on the sessions --- I'm sure that while he appreciated the musical beauty, he may have realized it almost impossible for the touring Beach Boys to play properly. Since a lot of their income was made through tours and shows, being able to perform their own music accordingly would've been a very big issue. Brian Wilson on the other hand stayed at home, He recorded with numerous musicians, each wholly capable of many talents. He had hardly to worry for the touring Beach Boys; that was their problem, and while I'm sure he addressed it, I wonder if he cared more for the artistic direction of the group as an album band (Put to serious competition by the Beatles) or for the touring group being able to play well.

Before BWPS was released he always said that Al & Dennis liked it, Carl & Mike didn't. After the release, he said Dennis and Mike didn't like it (in interviews) while on his homepage he still said that Carl & Mike didn't. Al was always in the liking-corner.
In "Beautiful Dreamer" someone said, that Dennis liked it, but he left out a comment about Al (he gets overlooked quite often unfortunately)

Sadly, Brian is probably the last person whose recollections on the project I'd trust. And as for the rest of them, it seems overwhelmingly that they ALL were at least uncertain about it, and (according to non-band members in interviews) leaning toward dislike. The only exception I can think of is Dennis, from whom I've never read a negative quote about Smile.

But really, isn't is possible that they were all just like most of us when it comes to our tastes? I like this part and that, but not that. Today I like this, tomorrow that. And so on. When you add enormous commercial (personal financial) ramifications for them, it makes plenty more sense why they felt that way, too.

Based on their own music, though, it makes sense to me that Al might have liked it. His late 60s and early 70s music had a similarly quirky, humorous slant often.

The Return Of The Thread

I think it's easiest to understand what their reations were or might have been when you realize they were hearing it in terms of their career(s), and not as music-lovers or Brian fans (and some people have emphasized this point).

They might have liked it a lot better as a Jimmy Webb album or a Curt Boettcher album, but for the Beach Boys, they were hearing something far riskier and less commercial than Pet Sounds; it was even less performable than that album (which had brought some criticism on that point in England), and it continued the trend of reducing their own profiles and raising Brian's.  That last one was especially true for Mike- besides being deposed as a lyricist, he was also seeing his vocal role diminish a great deal, mainly to bass parts, with almost no leads.  And lastly, the album offered only one really good chicken-dancing opportunity ("Barnyard").

Brian should go back and read all the cases of Dennis telling people how wonderful Smile was in the press in late '66..."it makes Pet Sounds stink its so good." Can't find any of the other guys saying things like that.

At one point or another, in Brian's mind, everyone has loved it and hated it. But yeah, Dennis is a definite yes. Al said doing the vocals was humiliating at one point (the pig reference), Carl seems very sincere on American Band talking about Brian (and then he went on to finish some of the songs), Mike called H&V Brian's last dynamic track, and Bruce was excited about Brian finishing SMiLE, in retrospect.

I think Bruce also said that he thought BWPS wasn't as good as the BBs original. Mike said this for sure, but I believe Bruce too...

Yeah, Bruce definately said that over on that 'other' message board a couple times.  I respect his opinion, it's a very valid point that I don't totally agree with, but hell he was there. 

We rely too much on the perceptions of a former-anfetamine-adicted-brainwashed-by-Landy bulshitter like Brian Douglas Wilson. He proved too many times that his memory can't be trusted. Next week he'll say that Rick and Blondie hated Smile.

Between Brian and Carl, I trust Carl's word.

That's some funny sh*t.

If that's true, that's pretty damning.  Just ridiculous to think that the group should have stayed in that place throughout the late 60s.

The Boys have consistantly said, over the past 40 years, they liked it inspite of a few qualms [very, very few].  It seems to me that it didn't matter what the others thought, whether they didn't like it or some small aspect of it [edit: or all absolutely loved and supported it with all their souls],  Brian did what he wanted and he had the Boys do what he wanted, and the Boys did what he wanted,  to the point of their humiliation even.  Brian's sensitivity to their feelings and wishes is a bunch of bunk imo, so I'm not seeing how their like or dislike had any leverage.  Brian didn't want it, and said so for the same 40 years, and that's why it went south. 

Anyway....

Bruce:  said in Mojo around 1995 that he hated the grunting session. Bruce has also said Smiley is far better. So I don't think he dug it.
Mike: We know didn't like some lyrics, but I have heard him say good things about various cuts like "Heroes". Remember that Wally Heider session speach has the others, including Brian, on it , so it was probably meant in fun. People do forget that he  did eventually agree to sing on "Cabinessence". If he hated Van Dyke so much why did he use him on Summer In Paradise? (Ok bad example as that album would kill anyone off). As with Pet Sounds Mike's dissention and influence has been overstated. Afterall if Brian had wanted it out in 1967 it would have came out in 1967.
Al: He seems to have been the one who finally came around now with things like Smile or Dennis' work. Remember he was not a full business partner, until around the end of '67.
Carl : His support was never questioned except for in the Brian's-Landy's autobiography. I think he was a sincere person.
Dennis: You know loved it. It was him, not Bruce, who was Brian's biggest fan.
Brian:  Has said more bad things about Smile then anyone else really. This was probably because he was hurt by the memories of the sessions. Van Dyke bowing out was to me the thing that upset him most.

Whatever the ins and outs of who said or did what and who, if anyone, is to blame etc - IMO Brian's attitude to Smile down the years was one born of pain and regret.  This was the beginning of BW's downhill slide, both creative and personal.  Even MIke Love described Heroes and Villains as (forgive me if I don't write this absolutely word for word verbatim) "the last of Brian's real dynamism".

In 1967 Bruce said to the UK press (it was when they were promoting Then I Kissed Her, begrudgingly) that "I have some SMiLE music that will blow your mind." (something like that). Sounds supportive to me.

I think there's a tremendous temptation to oversimplify things, especially when the truth- which is a highly subjective matter anyway, in this case- is unobtainable.

No quote here or there- even a 1966 or 1967 quote- is ultimately going to prove "support" or "non-support", or reveal the extent of it, or demonstrate how important a factor it was or wasn't. Obviously by 1968 or so everyone must have known a terrible mistake had been made.

When the album essentially became a directed solo project, Brian wasn't able to bring it off by himself, and never would have been able.  That's the only statement I think is really safe, and I'm sure some will take exception to even that.

The big problem with opinions is that the other guy's got one, too.

First, let me say that I love SMiLE, wish it would've been released in 1967, and feel that it's Brian's best work. However...

Sometimes I think like the quote above regarding Al's feelings. Because SMiLE turned out to be such a debacle and damaged Brian's psychey, I sometimes wonder what The Beach Boys' career would've been like WITHOUT SMiLE.

The Beach Boys went a year and a few months from the release of Pet Sounds to Smiley Smile. Back in those days, that was good for about two new albums. What if Brian never met Van Dyke Parks at that party, never asked him to write lyrics, and decided to stick with Love, Asher, himself, or somebody else. What if Brian continued to produce music a la Summer Days & Summer Nights, Pet Sounds, and even "Good Vibrations". You know, commercial, ground breaking, accessible, Beach Boys' sounding music.  I'm not talking "Fun, Fun, Fun", or even "Help Me Rhonda", but maybe "Let Him Run Wild" or "Wouldn't It Be Nice".

If you do the math, that would mean about 25 new RELEASED songs from Brian Wilson from late 1966 to mid-1967. Probably four or five hit singles. Probably two hit albums. But that means you would have to sacrifice the SMiLE music. Would you do it? Do you ever wonder what The Beach Boys' career would've been like with no SMiLE? Just continuing for another year with the great music that Brian was churning out?

I repeat that I love SMiLE; I "get" SMiLE. But every once in a while, as I'm listening to "Surf's Up", and not exactly being "touched" by the lyrics, I say to myself, "I wonder what this song would've sounded like as a love song", with Beach Boys' lyrics like "Kiss Me Baby", "Please Let Me Wonder", or "God Only Knows". Would I like the song (or some of the other SMiLE songs) better with more accessible lyrics? Do I sound like Mike Love?

I'm not trying to disparage SMiLE. Anybody else ever have these thoughts? Kind of like Al was saying...

California Girls is an amazing song, so I don't know why its being trashed.

I'd certainly trade the unfinished SMiLE for two or even one more finished album(s) in the Pet Sounds or Summer Days modes.

SMiLE is utterly amazing as both a later-finished and an unfinished piece of work, but the style is not as important to me as substance, and the style and substance of the work leading up to it leave absolutely nothing to be desired, for me.  Plenty of bands were demonstrating at the time that ceaseless change wasn't necessary commercially or artistically. 

The style of SMiLE was unusually substantial in that it was so completely different and innovative, but what matters most to me is the quality of the songwriting and production, and the heart that was in it.  Would I trade an unfinished "Worms" for a finished piece of the quality and style of "Girl Don't Tell Me" or "Yuo Still Believe In Me"?  Sure- but I don't know if that was ever an option.

Bruce has been really changable. I mean the quotes I have and the quotes you have are probably both true. I mean in 1971, 1975, and 1995 I read interviews were he is down on doing an oldies format. Then I have read many others were he defends the old songs. I just can't get a handle on what he thinks.  Even if he didn't like Smile, he was still the "new guy" so I don't know if what he felt meant much to Brian. Probably like anyone else he changes his mind at times.

I do agree with you about why Brian was down on it. I just don't know if his perceptions reflect the reality of the times or what he has been told since.

Mike always said he liked Van Dyke as a person but that he just wasn't into some of his lyrics.

No, it's NOT a bad example. It's a good example. Of Van Dyke Parks' hypocrisy.

I have problems listening to VDP. He's a lot like Brian in that you never know if what's coming out of his mouth is the truth. Brian flat out lies but VDP uses his clever speaking ability to take shots without being direct.

I'm assuming the only reason VDP played on Summer In Paradise is because of his connection with Terry Melcher, whatever that was in 1992. On SIP, Brian wasn't there, Dennis was dead, and Al was asked to not come. That leaves Carl, Bruce, and Michael Edward Love. VDP didn't contribute to the writing. Did he need the money? When you hear VDP diss Mike Love in SMiLE interviews, you wonder how he could stand being in the same room with the guy. He probably did his part when Mike wasn't there...

I don't agree with the lying and hypocrisy charges. 

Brian certainly has problems with memory and is inconsistent; I don't know if that rises to the level of lying, which I think of as a more deliberate and calculated act.   

As for hypocrisy, I guess we're all hypocrites, since no one is completely consistent, and no one is able to represent their own values a hundred percent of the time.  But I definitely don't think it's a defining characteristic of Van Dyke's, and I've always found him very direct and honest about his own feelings about things, including Mike, in the interviews I've read. 
If playing with someone you've criticized in the past makes you a hypocrite, then hypocrisy is the defining characteristic of nearly everyone in nearly every band.

Just another subjective matter, I guess. 

unfortunately Brian's bro Carl & his mom didn't live to see the sea tides change...in Bri's favor.

maybe then, we would've seen a more confident Carl Wilson gloating and waxing nostalgic concerning the Smile era. THat said, I believe if Dennis hadn't passed away, he would've probably kicked the whole Landy crew's asses & Smile wouldve come out sometime
in the late 80's, early 90's when the public was more ready for it.

And NO KOKOMO WITHOUT BRIAN NOR DENNIS.
f*** JOHN STAMOS. DENNIS WOULD'VE KICKED HIS BUTT TOO.

But Brian would have had his problems if Smile existed or not.  That's just where his life was heading, whether it was due to drugs or mental illness or both.  It was happening well before Smile, but came to a head then.  Brian also lost confidence in his ability to compete in the marketplace and have hit records.  No matter what approach he took post-PS, that would have been true.  The Beach Boys were fading, and would have even if Brian came up with something more readily accessible than "Smile."  That's probably why he had the Beach Boys do a cover of "The Letter" -- he felt that the Box Tops were writing more commercial material at that point than he could.

As for Van Dyke, I don't think he dictated the entire direction of Smile.  If Van Dyke weren't there, you probably would have had an LP full of "Vegtables."  The health kick/elements thing still would have been there, because that was more Brian's idea.  The Americana part was more Van Dyke's, but it turned out in fairly commercial fashion on "Heroes & Villains."  Also, I think Mike Love likes Van Dyke more than Van Dyke likes him.  Mike is just rather insensitive.  But he has said he genuinely likes Van Dyke Parks as a person, and enjoys his sense of humor.  He just didn't know what Van Dyke was trying to say with some of his lyrics.  But even at that, Mike sang them.   I think Van Dyke tends to assign too much blame to Mike and the Beach Boys for the reason Smile was not finished. 

Steve Desper has said that Carl was very disappointed and frustrated with Brian for not going back and completing SMiLE, so I've taken that to mean that Carl was honest and sincere in IJWMFTT.

GREAT post!

I'd trade SMiLE for two quality albums in the like of Pet Sounds. The whole question is a bit of a dead end. Brian HAD to change at some point. If it wasn't through and with VDP, Michael Vosse, etc then it'd be someone else. I don't think two Pet Sounds can be accomplished, that's why they headed in the different direction. Some of the compositions of SMiLE are overrated anyway.

forget marie,
       I ALWAYS look forward to your posts and USUALLY agree with them. However, your above statements disagreed with a lot of what I posted, so I thought I'd respond.

Do you really believe that Brian, in 1966, coming off of the chart success of "Sloop John B", "Wouldn't It Be Nice", and "Good Vibrations" (a No. 1 record), lost confidence in his ability to write hit records? I think had he continued the Summer Days & Summer Nights/Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations approach, he/The Beach Boys would've had another 4-5 hit singles and two Top Ten albums. Do I think he could've found a lyricist to accomplish this? Yes, I do.

I never viewed the Beach Boys, coming off of Pet Sounds and "Good Vibrations", as fading. Around that time, weren't they voted as the Top Group in a worldwide poll? With the exception of Carl (who got better with age), all of the Beach Boys were peaking vocally in 1966-67. They were becoming much more accomplished musicians. They were all beginning to write a bit (of course, Brian was already in the cosmos), and I think, even with "Good Vibrations" going to No.1, they viewed their career as just taking off, with their best days ahead of them.

I DO THINK Van Dyke Parks dictated the direction of SMiLE. I've always viewed the SMiLE music as Brian writing music to Van Dyke's words, as opposed to the other way around. Not completely, of course, it was a collaboration. But SMiLE has VDP's influence written all over it. If VDP wasn't there, you would not have had an album full of "Vegetables", you would've had an album full of songs reflecting whatever lyricist Brian chose.

But, like Mr. Phileas Fogg stated in his above post, the issue is a dead end/mute point. But it it's still fun speculating about it...

Sherriff, I hope you won't slap the cuffs on me if I disagree again!

I don't think Van Dyke dictated anything...I do think he was a big influence, but I don't think "Surf's Up, "Heroes And Villains", "Wind Chimes", "Vegetables", or "Worms" were ever going to bePet Sounds type tracks with any lyricist, and I think that was simply the direction Brian was going, musically. I think Van Dyke's lyrics were perfectly married to what was there melodically, especially in songs like "Heroes", "Wonderful", and "Cabinessence"- can't imagine those with Asher lyrics- and of course Brian's melodies usually came before the words, right?

Brian was a ticking timebomb by 1967; having an unmanageable project on his hands didn't help, but the complexity of the work was his own choice.

As usual, just one man's opinion; worth (at best) the cyber-space it's written on.

Surfer Joe,
          You're right, "dictated" is too strong a word to use. I took that word directly from forget marie's post. Big influence is a better description.

As far as which came first - the music or the words - you wrote "of course Brian's melodies usually came before the words, right?" I don't know if I would say "of course". I will concede that it might be split. I'm trying to think back to the various documentaries, books, and print interviews; I can't think of a specific passage that answers that question. Maybe somebody else can locate one.

I'm also going to semi-agree with you that Brian was a "ticking timebomb" in 1967. However, it is my opinion, that if Brian would've stayed the Summer Days/Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations course for just one more year, and avoided the SMiLE "effects" (we all know what they were), perhaps that timebomb would've been diffused - at least until much more music was released. And I realize I just made a very Mike Love-ish statement.

Again, I'm not dismissing SMiLE, just speculating what life, Brian's life, would've been like without it...

Yeah, when I said "Brian's melodies usually came before the words, right?" I added the question at the end because I didn't want to make it a blanket statement.  I get the strong impression that it was mostly melody-first from various comments and descriptions, including Van Dyke's statement that his job was to put a syllable everywhere Brian put a note, or something like that.

If you want to say that drugs were a big problem in Brian's life in 1966 and 1967, I'll join you and it'll be you and me against the whole rest of the board. :lol

Guys, It was all My fault...i thought Brian's mind was ready.
The Beatles, The Stones, The Doors, Spector, Warhol...he was too talented not to turn on.
 Turns out he never came back.

I love this board ! People are so open to different views. I mean people willing to think the whole Brian and the five a--holes thing is false makes me quite happy. Brian is great, .but I think he never learned how to say "I don't want to talk about this so drop it". In other words Brian is not trying to fool anyone but trying to aviod a subject.  I also think his memory is great at  times and at others terrible. I think he pretends to remember things, or has been told about certain events falsely by hangers on who have motives. I think we all can guess who they are. While his book is tabloid fodder, Gaines did say in a radio or TV interview that The Beach Boys were ok but it was the people aound them who were really the ones causing trouble. As far as Brian being ill, he had problems as early as 1963. He was slowly putting on weight, he was missing shows, and already unhealthy as to how he viewed people like Spector etc. Drugs gave Brian brain damage and changed him from who he was before his dad died, but I just don't really see how someone as prolific as Brian was in 68-70 can be seen as any worse then he was in 66-7. Of course by 1974-5 he was in trouble but I think it was after Landy saw him that things got worse. I mean Brian in 1971 was in control enough to work only when he wanted to. He wasn't obese, he didn't need minders. Can you say that about Brian in 1977

Isn't that close to what the Beach Boys achieved?  Wild Honey is filled with Wilson-Love songs in the classic style, let down in places by the homemade production.  Songs like "Let The Wind Blow" stand with their best work.  Listen again to the live version of "Aren't You Glad".  Then we have Friends with a proper Brian Wilson sound and more eccentric (but still great) compositions.  By the 1969-1970 era, songs such as "We're Together Again", "Do It Again", "Breakaway", "This Whole World", "All I Want To Do" (Sunflower), "Forever", "Cool Cool Water", "Slip On Through", "It's About Time", "Lady", "Sound Of Free", "Till I Die" and "Big Sur" (first version) were meeting your specifications exactly.  The group, especially Dennis and Carl, filled the void as Brian began to withdraw, but his guiding spirit is unmistakably there.  The work was not always released in the most commercially sensible way, but 1967-70 was a period of sustained brilliance that rivals everything that went before.  It's a pity that there were few sympathetic listeners.

I think the homemade production WAS, as you state, a let down. It's personal taste, of course, but I think Brian's music suffered when he eased out of the Western/Sunset Sound/Wrecking Crew mode of recording and moved into the simpler, home studio style. While I can appreciate parts of Wild Honey and Friends, I still prefer the "full blown" BW productions. Do you think the listening public did too?

The period of 1967-70 certainly did contain some worthwhile music. But I think it's a stretch, even as a faithful diehard, to say it was SUSTAINED brilliance, rivaling everything before. Rivaling Today, Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations?

Besides agreeing with every word of that- "Darlin' " and "Breakaway" were about the only tracks of that later Capitol period that rose to the full heights of the earlier productions for me personally*- I don't think they ever got back to the level of All Summer Long- an underrated early plateau.

* O.K., throw in "I Went To Sleep" and "Time To Get Alone".  I like a lot of stuff off of those albums, and love some of it, but the "Salt Lake City" gloss of perfection is missing for me.

But wasn't it the quest for studio perfection in the Smile period that brought Brian to creative breakdown in the first place?  I think Brian was suffering from a lack of discipline, but it wasn't limited to the home studio.  In the professional studio he eventually had too much freedom to rework obsessively and become unable to make decisions.  Did the listening public prefer the full blown stuff?  Probably it did, but a rawer style was becoming fashionable in the late 60s  e.g. Music From Big Pink, John Wesley Harding, White Album.   The Beach Boys might have been able to sell Wild Honey as their "Big Pink" with better PR.  I think Friends is a pretty damn good production.  It's instrumentally sparse in places, but it has all of the old vocal warmth.


The band never released another album as consistently good as Pet Sounds before or after 1966.  Sunflower comes quite close and I would say it's a better album song for song than Today or Summer Days.  For me, the frequency and magnitude of the highpoints are comparable in both eras.

Pet Sounds didn't sell that well, and it hurt Brian deeply, according to his mother, Marilyn, and others around him.  Since the lack of success of PS didn't sink in until Smile was already under way, don't you think that had some influence on how that album proceeded in the end?

You also can't dismiss the influence of the Monkees controversy.  There was a big hoo-ha when it was revealed that the Monkees didn't play on their own records.  It seems stupid now, but apparently is was important then, especially since all acts were compared to the Beatles.  The direction the Beach Boys went in was a good approach for the times, and I don't think Brian's earlier approach would have gotten them more airplay when it would sound incongruous next to what was being played on the radio 1967  and beyond.

I think the Beach Boys were concerned about Brian's overall self-indulgence and lack of discipline in the studio, starting with the sessions for "Good Vibrations."  There really was no reason GV to have tracked that many sessions, and when you listen to the outtakes, it becomes apparent that Brian seemed to be trying to do variations on a theme, most of which were never intended to make it onto the final record.  Smile has bits that are similarly experimental.  Brian wanted to stretch and perhaps attempt to make serious music, but it seemed more for his own thing and not clearly meant just to make a chart-bound Beach Boys record.  He was very prolific and efficient prior to that, with some experimentation and variations, but not on the scale of Smile and "Good Vibrations."  The Beach Boys didn't necessarily have faith in "Good Vibrations" in any form; even Brian had some doubts about it.  It probably was considered a lucky fluke that it was such a huge hit.  "Heroes and Villains" is actually a fairly good, stylistically consistent follow-up to GV, but it just didn't get the airplay, never got very high even in the home market of LA, and fell off quickly.  That was probably the nail in the coffin for Brian's ever being that ambitious again, and IMO, it was dictated more by the changing marketplace than what Brian and the Beach Boys were doing.  They were getting too old for bubblegum (and replaced by new acts with new approaches for the Top 40 kids' market), and were considered poison by the older, hipper fans.  Even the Doors were quickly considered too bubblegum and sell-out for the dopehead hipsters, but too old for the younger kids.

Great points...i like the way you wove the BB's contemporaries into the mix. Very good insight to bring in the true history. Nothing like facts, to make a point.

Except for one thing.....

Pet Sounds DID sell in 1966 and (if Capitol hadn't f***ed the band over) was on tap to be their best selling studio album!

How does one know?

First of all, Pet Sounds was finally certified gold in February 2000 thanks to a subpoena from Melinda Wilson to Capitol Records forcing an audit of all of the sales of Pet Sounds from '66 to 2000.

However, by the time that Brian was given his Gold album after the Roxy shows, Pet Sounds was already certified PLATINUM! ow's that posible? Simple, the Capitol bean counters had found unreported record sales - from 1966. Pet Sounds DID sell enough to have gone gold in '66, it WASN'T a "flop" (how can a Top Ten album be called a "flop"?), and it was on track to be a HUGE album for the BB. So can we stop repeating the myth that Pet Sounds "just didn't sell"?

Thank you!

Alright!!! Alright!!!
                   The Pet Sounds Conspiracy, i knew it,man...................................this stuff'll Kill Ya

That's INSANE!

But did Brian think it sold all that well back in 1966?  No.  Did he have to face the reality then that Capitol was pushing a greatest hits collection at the expense of promoting PS?  Yes.  Did his first attempt at a solo release not do very well (Caroline, No)?  Yes.  Did his own mom and his first wife say he was devastated by the weaker showing of PS, relative to earlier BB releases?  Yes.   Other music acts would have been glad to have a "bomb" like PS on their hands, but it wasn't good enough for the expectations that Brian had built.  He also faced resistance from Capitol prior to the album being released.  Brian had a lot of reasons to be a bit less confident during the time Smile was being created.  The fact that PS has done well in back catalog sales and his current wife had sales audited to vindicate her husband wasn't a whole lot of help to Brian in 1966/67.

How many copies did Pet Sounds sell in its first year of release? Approximately. More than 500,000 copies?

These were 1966 Brian Wilson-produced singles along with their peak chart positions:

Barbara Ann            - peaked at #2
Sloop John B            - peaked at #3
Wouldn't It Be Nice  - peaked at #8
Good Vibrations       - peaked at #1

Pet Sounds (album) - peaked at #10

First, I would consider all of these HIT RECORDS. Second, it proves that Brian COULD/DID COMPETE in the marketplace in 1966. Third, it DOES NOT SHOW that he/they were fading. And four, if Brian lost confidence based on the listening public's acceptance of the above music, then there really was nothing that could be done for Brian's "condition", because, based on the competition in 1966, you couldn't do much better than that.

If Brian would've come up with something even remotely "accessible" in late 1966 or early 1967, I see no reason why it would not have been another big success...  

In the American Band documentory Carl said "it didnt seem appropriate at the time" which is probably what he felt. It also shows Al with a weird expression on his face talking to Carl and both looked uncomfortable to me. They didnt seem to understand what was going on. Then Mike knods his head no, simulating smoking a joint while trying to dance along to "Fire" He also gives someone a look that seems to say "this sucks".

Then maybe I'm just confused as to why Marilyn and Audree said that Brian was devastated by the "failure" of Pet Sounds. 

It's just another subjective thing, fm- or a matter of words.  Pet Sounds was obviously not a failure in 1966, whether based on the information they had then or the additional information we have now.  However, the response was disappointing to Brian.  It was a failure by some standard of his own,  probably processed through a personal nature that was steeped in severe depression.

The same is probably true for his perception of the response of the other band members to his work- his state of mind was such that he needed a lot of validation and support, so even a lukewarm or mixed response may have amounted to outright hostility in his own reality. Even a little heat was probably more than he could take. He was no longer equal to the pressure and no one around him seemed to know it.

This was not filmed at the fire-sessions, as I understand. Dennis probably filmed it, and those guys who did the documentary put "Fire" on it, because Brian wears that fire helmet, which he did not only during "Fire"...

I think that under-promotion of PS by Capitol is another fallacy. In my experience you can find as many or more examples of ads for Pet Sounds than BoBB or any other BB album of the time including a 4 full page trade ad.  Has any one seen a four page gatefold trade ad for any other 1966 group or album?  Pet Sounds also had 3 of its songs [almost a quarter of the album] in heavy rotation on national radio.

Which other sessions did Brian wear a fire hat?  I always thought that it was exclusively the sessions for Fire...maybe H&V intro session?

double post

Why was Mike wearing a fire helmet too? Also Brian is seen closing his eyes and jamming to music whatever it is, but they appeared to be listening to some Smile track, judging by Mike's expressions. I also remember Brian saying he liked to space out when listening to Fire even though noone in the band liked it very much. That looks alot like what happens in this video.

I like Al's giving the finger in the video. That's classic Al.

I am not sure, but that's what I heard. The Beach Boys weren't there for the Fire-Sessions, I believe they weren't even in town (maybe on tour?).
Brian did wear those helmets alot during the Smile-sessions. Dennis brought him some from Europe, when they were on tour here. He even used this "fire-thing" on the promo-video to "Good Vibrations".  The Fire-Session was the one where all the studio-musicians had to wear those helmets, but like I said, Brian ore them quite often. Again, this is what I have heard, I wasn't there, so....

These "sessions" were just for a video. They may have been recordng at the same time but it I think they are merely outtakes from the "Good Vibes" video which was aired in 1966 and recently found. Pet Sounds did do well and was promoted but Best Of The Beach Boys was released too early. The songs on the US version weren't well chosen compared to the UK one. One story is that Best Of The Beach Boys was sometimes sent by "accident" to stores who ordered "Pet Sounds". Frankly Captiol had a right to put out a hits LP, but they should of released so it wouldn't conflict with new product. At least the pictures on it were modern.

If they sold them as a double package they would've got way more sales.

"COMPARE the old to the new. Hear your favorite hits and new songs from PET SOUNDS. Buy both today! and hear America's fastest evolving musical act sweeping up the world!".

Puh-leeze...i think not...Capitol did not stand behind Pet Sounds, i'll always believe that

Well, as it has been said, they did take out several big ads for it...

"The most progressive pop album ever! It's fantastic!"

Olivio....i know your just comin' on cause you're guilty, so
   why don't you just go put on a Hairy Nillson record, and Shut the f*** UP, already!!!!!

just kiddin'.

It's interesting that trade ads are mentioned, because my understanding is how much money you spend on advertising in the trades influences chart position, or at least it used to.  It was a form of payola, in a sense.   PS chart position may have been influenced by the costly ads, so it might have been selling less well than the other LP's around it on the chart that didn't have as much ad money spent on them.  Plus, the public didn't see the ads, only industry insiders.  How PS was sold to the general public is more relevant, and the information generally included in the BB history books is that the Greatest Hits collection was given a stronger in-store push than PS.  It also charted higher.  PS was also a disappointment when compared to the performance of "Summer Days" and other BB LPs shortly before it, most of which made the Top 5.  It might seem like a small thing, but since Brian was self-critical, not to mention criticized by Murry, if his records didn't reach the top, it might have influenced his feelings at the time.  Marilyn's quote is in the Badman book, as well as Bruce Johnston and the vice-president of promotion at Capitol, and all indicated that PS promotion and chart performance were a disappointment to the BB and Brian, even though it at least reached the Top 10 of LP's.

I'll Stand By You

I never understood why Capitol was worried about Pet Sounds. I mean, at that time they usually took just two singles from an album, so two songs with hit potential should've been enough for them. And Pet Sounds had Wouldn't It Be Nice, God Only Knows, Sloop John B and Caroline No...

I suppose because someone thinks something it doesn't mean it's true and vice versa.

It was several years ago and it would take a month to find it [if at all] but I recall Billboard's album charts for 1966 showing Pet Sounds as 1 of only 35 [+ or - ?] albums to break #10 that year.

Absolutely.  Did Pet Sounds do well?  Did Capitol promote it enough?  These are subjective questions with no correct or incorrect answers.

What we can probably say safely is that Capitol wasn't thrilled with it- if their response to Brian is accurately reported- and that Brian was disappointed with the sales. To say that it truly failed or succeeded commercially invites argument either way.

If it can be shown that Capitol intentionally pursued a policy of pushing the lame Greatest Hits album at Pet Sounds' expense- and there seems to be at least some evidence for that- then you have another story.

It's human nature to try to make a story simple and clear, without a lot of grey area, but life is usually a bit more ambiguous than that.  It reminds me of art school, when we all circled around the model in drawing class.  When you got up and walked around the room, you saw the same person in the same pose from twenty different angles, with twenty different impressions: some more accurate, some more insightful.  There are many different truths.

It doesn't matter if it did better than most albums by most acts, it didn't do well for a Beach Boys album compared to past album chart positions.  If the Beatles' had an album that landed at #9, after having a string of #1's, don't you think it would have been regarded as a disappointment?  Not to mention evidence of an act on the way down.  There was no precedent for acts having multi-year runs at the top of the charts.  Any sign of weakness or diminishing of sales would be perceived by the act itself, the record label, and by outsiders as signs of slippage and the potential for falling out of fashion.   None of that was lost on Brian, who seemed to have kept track of both chart positions and  money matters, if you believe some of his remarks over the years.  He was also keenly aware of the competition, and could probably name every album ahead of PS in the charts.  We're not talking about some act from Podunk just breaking out and grateful to be that far up, but an established act and leader with a fierce sense of competition.

Thats right, Marie, no retreat,baby...no surrender!!!
You are my Shinin' Star