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Author Topic: "You Are So Beaurtiful" is Number 58 in ASACAP's 100 biggest songs list  (Read 7626 times)
clack
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2014, 06:50:47 AM »

There has never been any doubt that Fisher wrote the organ bit for 'A Whiter Shade of Pale'. It was acknowledged at the time (1967) and ever since, by all parties.

There is doubt, however, that Dennis co-wrote 'You Are So Beautiful'. Billy Preston denied it, Dennis -- as far as is known -- never claimed it. We have only Billy Hinsche's report, and that would never hold up in court, I'm afraid, without corroborating evidence.
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filledeplage
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2014, 07:51:28 AM »

There has never been any doubt that Fisher wrote the organ bit for 'A Whiter Shade of Pale'. It was acknowledged at the time (1967) and ever since, by all parties.

There is doubt, however, that Dennis co-wrote 'You Are So Beautiful'. Billy Preston denied it, Dennis -- as far as is known -- never claimed it. We have only Billy Hinsche's report, and that would never hold up in court, I'm afraid, without corroborating evidence.
GF2002 asked about Hinsche and Dragon as witnesses.  Could they be expert witnesses? Only the judge could decide that. 

Could they be eyewitnesses? Probably. 

Could the "other side" inquire into bias? Yup.

Could those to whom Dennis "allegedly" told that he (Dennis) was an author of YASB be a witness? Yup.

Are they subject to cross exam? Yup.

Interesting in the Bee Gee case, the Bee Gee's didn't have an expert witness. The plaintiff did.  It was Selle v. Gibb, 567 F. Supp. 1173. (N.D. Ill. 1983), aff'd, 741 F.2d 896 7th Cir. 1984).

I just read where iTunes has some program that analyzes music and had "spit out" striking similarities (substantial similarities) and Joyce Hatto (whom I never heard of) a pianist who released others' work as her own. Yikes!

At any rate, I would not discount any potential witness, and it won't be decided on this forum but "elsewhere" in the event a claim is lodged.  Billy could have "personal knowledge" and could have been an eye witness, as well as Dragon. And, Dennis reportedly told numerous others that he was an author.  He performed it. Did anyone come looking for royalties? An author can perform his or her own work without paying royalties.  And, maybe because he was a lefty, he might have done things in an unconventional manner, that they were familiarized with. I don't know. 

Too many questions and not a lot of answers. And someone with "standing" has to make the claim, anyway.  That would generally be an owner or the estate. I'd love to see Dennis' work properly credited and attribution accorded if, in fact, he wrote it.  And, I don't think I'm alone.  Wink
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2014, 07:53:01 AM »

Dennis -- as far as is known -- never claimed it.
Untrue. The only reason I asked Billy Hinsche about this when I interviewed him for the Real Beach Boy book back in '98 is that I'd heard from other family members and collaborators that Dennis insisted he'd co-written the song. Since the story had never come to light publically i was still thinking it was probably a tall tale. So...I put it to Hinsche this way..."Dennis told **** that he co-wrote YASB. He must have been joking right?" Hinsche's response was "No...it's true. I saw it happen. I was there." He went on to tell me about the night it occurred. And that's how his story became part of the record. I pursued it only because so many people had been told by Dennis that he'd written the song. In fact time and time again when i'd mention YASB to insiders, they'd say..."well you know Dennis had a hand in writing it." And then they'd go on to explain how, or under what circumstances Dennis had shared this info with them. All varied timing and places, different eras...but very consistent in that he said he co-wrote the song.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 07:54:21 AM by Jon Stebbins » Logged
clack
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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2014, 08:53:48 AM »

Sorry, I meant that Dennis had never claimed, as far as I'm aware, publicly -- in an interview or something -- that he co-wrote it. In other words, he's not on the record claiming authorship. That would be a major complication in any lawsuit, I would imagine.
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2014, 10:20:00 AM »

Sorry, I meant that Dennis had never claimed, as far as I'm aware, publicly -- in an interview or something -- that he co-wrote it. In other words, he's not on the record claiming authorship. That would be a major complication in any lawsuit, I would imagine.
Yes, no public statement from him that I'm aware of. I think he was kind of humble about it, and just shared the fact with people close to him...but I was surprised at how many of them did know this, considering it had never been talked about by any BB's historian or journalist until '98 or so. Billy H is pretty firm in his assessment that Dennis was not interested in pursuing credit, he just made the song his own by singing it so often, that was his way of taking ownership. But as Howie points out that is not helpful to his heirs.
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bgas
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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2014, 11:02:53 AM »

 In that case, I think it goes right back to: do the heirs care enough to risk any up-front $$ outlay to file the suit and follow it thru, based on possibly( probably?) winning a partial rights ownership and subsequent $$.
 NOT up to us, and, it doesn't appear the heirs have been too concerned  to date.  It would be a nice feather for Dennis, but I don't see them taking the time
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« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2014, 12:00:48 PM »

The lawyers would do all the work, not the family.  Sounds like an interesting case.
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bluesno1fann
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« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2014, 02:19:41 PM »

I'm sorry if this may sound stupid, as I'm not too familiar with this particular subject, but...

What exactly was Bruce Fisher's contribution to You Are So Beautiful. I'm aware of Dennis's and Billy Preston's, but what about Bruce?
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Ed Roach
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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2014, 08:29:10 PM »

Howie had asked me to chime in on this, and I had to give it some thought, as both he & Jon know I'm not the most credible witness on this subject.  See, Dennis had a way of convincing you not only that he created the world, but that he owned it, too!  And there were times I bought it, and times I watched the public buy it - witness the films of him performing this song!
Bottom line, even when I knew the cars that he owned, the houses, and sometimes even the songs, (like "Never Learn Not to Love"), were rented, it never mattered, because he left his imprint on everything he touched...  Somehow, in my memory, he was performing the song before I heard him say that he'd written it, and things were moving so fast at that point that I thought it might just be another of his, shall I say, Jon Lovitz moments...  However, I know the exact time period Billy Hinsche is referencing that Dennis & Billy wrote this, when Dennis was 'hiding away' in a bungalow in The Beverly Hills Hotel.  Many magic moments around his upright in that room, and it's impossible not to hear him in that song...  
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 08:31:01 PM by Ed Roach » Logged
Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2014, 11:46:14 PM »

Does it sound like any other song Billy Preston wrote ? No.

Does it sound like a Dennis Wilson song ? Hell, yes.

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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2014, 11:54:23 PM »

I used to have a copy of Preston's version and, well, it sounded dire, like it missed the mark by 10,000 miles…
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2014, 06:24:58 AM »

I used to have a copy of Preston's version and, well, it sounded dire, like it missed the mark by 10,000 miles…

Here is "You Are So Beautiful" by Billy Preston:

http://youtu.be/xrxWnM6sLTw

It's interesting that Dennis Wilson never recorded the song. Or did he? Huh Shocked
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Niko
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2014, 06:37:36 AM »

Pretty sure the only versions of the song by Dennis are live. If there was a studio version, seems like it would have come out at some point. Would love to be proven wrong on this  Grin
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2014, 07:17:42 AM »

Ah, well, it's only a few short years since an entire album landed on our shelves laden with unheard stuff.  Guessing Jon or Craig might have an answer but maybe they're saving it for the next book or the next CD release!
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2014, 07:20:11 AM »

I used to have a copy of Preston's version and, well, it sounded dire, like it missed the mark by 10,000 miles…

Here is "You Are So Beautiful" by Billy Preston:

http://youtu.be/xrxWnM6sLTw

It's interesting that Dennis Wilson never recorded the song. Or did he? Huh Shocked

Yup, that's it… bloody awful. Seems to me Dennis had a keen eye for the potential in something that had previously been handled very wrongly.  He'd spot a diamond in a muck heap.
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filledeplage
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2014, 07:26:43 AM »

The lawyers would do all the work, not the family.  Sounds like an interesting case.
The lawyer only submits what he/she is presented, in terms of fact and circumstances.  The more reliable evidence and info they have, the stronger the case is.  In other words, the client/s do a ton of work as well. 

The more the clients do, the better positioned the lawyer is to present the "package."  And, prevail. They are a team.  Wink
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2014, 08:21:51 AM »

GF2002 asked about Hinsche and Dragon as witnesses.  Could they be expert witnesses? Only the judge could decide that. 

Could they be eyewitnesses? Probably. 

Could the "other side" inquire into bias? Yup.

Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: Mr. Hinsche, what was your relationship to Dennis Wilson?

Billy Hinsche: Dennis Wilson was my friend. I recorded and played keyboards alongside Dennis in The Beach Boys for several years. My sister, Annie, was married to Dennis' brother, Carl Wilson. Dennis and my father, Otto, used to go on fishing trips together. I was and am a great admirer of Dennis Wilson and his music. I produced and directed a documentary film on Dennis Wilson called Dennis Wilson Forever.

Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: No more questions, your honor.


Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: Mr. Fisher, what was your involvement with the composing of "You Are So Beautiful"?

Bruce Fisher: Billy Preston and I wrote that song in A & M Studio in Los Angeles in 1974.

Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: But, the version you and Billy Preston recorded sounds nothing like the popular version recorded by Joe Cocker. Mr. Cocker's version sounds like something Dennis Wilson would've composed. 

Bruce Fisher: Except the version that everybody says sounds like Dennis Wilson, the Joe Cocker hit record version, wasn't arranged by Billy Preston. It was produced by Jim Price, and Jim Price wasn't at no party with Billy Preston and Dennis Wilson!

Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: No more questions, your honor.
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filledeplage
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« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2014, 08:42:29 AM »

GF2002 asked about Hinsche and Dragon as witnesses.  Could they be expert witnesses? Only the judge could decide that. 

Could they be eyewitnesses? Probably. 

Could the "other side" inquire into bias? Yup.

Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: Mr. Hinsche, what was your relationship to Dennis Wilson?

Billy Hinsche: Dennis Wilson was my friend. I recorded and played keyboards alongside Dennis in The Beach Boys for several years. My sister, Annie, was married to Dennis' brother, Carl Wilson. Dennis and my father, Otto, used to go on fishing trips together. I was and am a great admirer of Dennis Wilson and his music. I produced and directed a documentary film on Dennis Wilson called Dennis Wilson Forever.

Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: No more questions, your honor.


Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: Mr. Fisher, what was your involvement with the composing of "You Are So Beautiful"?

Bruce Fisher: Billy Preston and I wrote that song in A & M Studio in Los Angeles in 1974.

Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: But, the version you and Billy Preston recorded sounds nothing like the popular version recorded by Joe Cocker. Mr. Cocker's version sounds like something Dennis Wilson would've composed. 

Bruce Fisher: Except the version that everybody says sounds like Dennis Wilson, the Joe Cocker hit record version, wasn't arranged by Billy Preston. It was produced by Jim Price, and Jim Price wasn't at no party with Billy Preston and Dennis Wilson!

Attorney for Billy Preston's Estate: No more questions, your honor.

Witness examination has four parts:

1 - Direct exam

2- Cross examination

3 -Re-direct

4 - Re-cross

And the lawyer gets to pose the questions as to being a member of the band, for how long, what a person who was basically considered a "drummer" was doing "composing" and whether there were certain similar qualities that ran through his style going from "concept to finished product."  Did he learn from Brian, was it self-taught, etc...

So, the "no further questions" as to "bias" are absolutely appropriate, the questions would likely go deeper into why anyone (not just Billy) would notice a certain style or manner of doing things that was unique.  And, he is an industry professional.  He observed songwriting on many levels.  So, beyond the obvious "bias" he still could have a great and solid foundation as an historian of Dennis (and Carl's) work but able to demonstrate a dimension that was unique to Dennis and he certainly appears to be able to place him "at the scene of the crime."

The court want to know "what he knows." And the rest of the stuff, such as bias, establish a context.  Is he credible? Does he have facts? It all comes out in "the wash."

Sheriff - I'm so glad you posted that.  Many "devils' advocates" to explore all kinds of scenarios are a good thing!  Wink
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2014, 12:29:56 PM »

Pretty sure the only versions of the song by Dennis are live. If there was a studio version, seems like it would have come out at some point. Would love to be proven wrong on this  Grin
I would love for you to be proven wrong on this too. I'll remind everyone that Stephen Desper once posted on this very board that he recalled Dennis developing the YASB song, or progression in the studio in the early '70's...no hard evidence, just a seemingly vague recollection, and as many would point out Dennis tended to play things with slight differences that were fundamentally alike. His recollection could be of an early exploration of one of the other things like I've Got a Friend or Cuddle Up that explore similar ground. But maybe not. if a pre-'74 snippet on tape showed up with an identifiable YASB line, or chord change...well then this all moves from gray area to something more black and white.

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kiwi surfer
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« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2014, 05:53:15 PM »

As a lawyer and someone who has spent quite a bit of time with Billy I suggest he would be a very creditable witness. Add other witness testimony and some 'expert' composer testimony and you have the makings of an arguable case.
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MarcellaHasDirtyFeet
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« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2014, 01:04:53 PM »

Sheriff's fictional courtroom makes a lot of sense. Dennis' version sounds like Joe's, not Billy's.
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