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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2014, 11:06:18 PM »

No, we need a total crackdown and ban on E-cigarettes, that's the most pressing issue of the day. At least according to those four senators.  Grin

Way to spend our money. Worthy of a "Solyndra" award for best overall fucking-over of the taxpayers.

Can't argue here!

Did you see that these same folks (well, the E! Network floor of the same building) put up a "Fun Fact" during the Golden Globes which said "Michael J Fox was diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease in 1991"? ....... Really? This is a "Fun Fact"Huh??
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2014, 07:20:28 AM »

In other pressing news.... these issues are troubling our "Leaders"...

House Dems demand government study on Internet hate speech...

Al Franken Demands Answers on GPS Tracking............... by FORD MOTOR CO...

 Wall
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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2014, 12:09:21 PM »

Whew...... This'll sure help:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/14/wisconsin-republicans-propose-7-day-work-week-at-behest-of-business-lobby/
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2014, 05:45:00 PM »

There is something in the recent Slavoj Zizek book "Violence" about how the "other" himself is nothing compared to the stereotyped idea of the other, which incorporates a diverse set of motivations, traits, and a full history and context that is actually unrelated to the person himself. Unfortunately that is what seems to be true in reality and even more so on boards including this and assorted media (which I struggle to think of as reality, though I suppose they are in a sense). Nothing seems quite so hope-draining to me as digging in and villainizing the other in broad terms, making it easy to mock, questioning motivations, and basically dumbing down everything to an almost tribal rivalry. Whittle it down to two opposing sides, lump things into one of those camps, and turn it into an oversimplified sport.

This thread begins with a topic of some importance to Americans, at least, and quickly becomes a place to broadly paint the opponents as the problem. Call names, hurt feelings, and get your digs and points in when you can. More than conservatism, liberalism, libertarianism, blahblahism, I'd say it's that which is the problem: turning reality into nasty spirited sport.
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2014, 05:51:35 PM »

There is something in the recent Slavoj Zizek book "Violence" about how the "other" himself is nothing compared to the stereotyped idea of the other, which incorporates a diverse set of motivations, traits, and a full history and context that is actually unrelated to the person himself. Unfortunately that is what seems to be true in reality and even more so on boards including this and assorted media (which I struggle to think of as reality, though I suppose they are in a sense). Nothing seems quite so hope-draining to me as digging in and villainizing the other in broad terms, making it easy to mock, questioning motivations, and basically dumbing down everything to an almost tribal rivalry. Whittle it down to two opposing sides, lump things into one of those camps, and turn it into an oversimplified sport.

This thread begins with a topic of some importance to Americans, at least, and quickly becomes a place to broadly paint the opponents as the problem. Call names, hurt feelings, and get your digs and points in when you can. More than conservatism, liberalism, libertarianism, blahblahism, I'd say it's that which is the problem: turning reality into nasty spirited sport.

Amen to that.....

Makes me think about the "indie" rock 90's heyday. People who were "oh so indie" and anti-corporate-labels would in turn, sign with some little indie outfit and then get just as f***ed over as their friends on "majors: did because the little indie label turned out to be nothing but a tax write-off for the same big labels they were avoiding like the plague .... So, you ended up with guys who were being f***ed of all they had strutting around acting like Mick Jagger because they were signed to a major, and then you had guys getting f***ed of all they had strutting around like Steve Albini because they were signed to an "indie" label.....

Expect a bunch of Obama bashing pictures to follow.....
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 06:11:22 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2014, 05:59:56 PM »

My liberal friends are ever bit as bad as the conservatives, both in terms of the oversimplifications of things and the requirements of their allies to speak the party line. (Small-P party, if you will, as most liberals I know don't particularly care for the Democratic party.) I don't say this as a part of the mainstream media's "both sides are equally responsible for all problems, both sides are just fringe lunatics" messaging, which I don't accept at all. I mean it not politically, but ... (trying to think of a word that accomplishes "partisanally, which isn't a word) (came up empty). So sure, I'd be disappointed if the response to that kind of post is to throw out some (small-P) party line mockery or jibes, but I'm just as disappointed that you expect "this" from "them."
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« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2014, 09:02:22 PM »

While this is all true... the sport of which you speak is not actually played in national politics.  It's not.  The liberals/left do.  And that's why they win.  They play.

The Republicans?  Don't make me laugh.  They sck monkey nutts.  In those terms.  The only conservative and libertarian opinions you hear are on "fringe radio" and by ... us.  The people.  The tea party.  Bloggers.  Posters.  Who are quickly turned into monsters by the powerful media.

Point is this -- Republicans would HATE me.  Hate me.  They hate conservatives and libertarians.  We're not invited to the "party."  Big p or little p.  Not invited.  And the goal of the left (one of the goals) is to make John Boner, and the rest of the Republicans believe we're "bad."  Toxic.  Poison.  And John Boner goes along, cuz John Boner likes monky sack.  I guess.



Now... back to yer point.  Yes, it stinks that things erode so quickly in these high-minded discussions.  Yes, it's juvenile.  But, you need to understand -- they started it.  They started ALL OF IT.  You can quote me on that.

The Left fcks us.  Everyday.  And folks like me are only pointing it out.  I'm just reacting to the mindless, dckless sht they do EVERY FICKING DAY to this country.  They did it.  Not us.  They're the fcks shitting in your coffee.  They're the fcks, shtting in the sand box -- every fcking morning.  So to speak.

So... I'm just pointing it all out.   Wink
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 09:03:45 PM by Bean Bag » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2014, 09:15:03 PM »

While this is all true... the sport of which you speak is not actually played in national politics.  It's not.  The liberals/left do.  And that's why they win.  They play.

The Republicans?  Don't make me laugh.  They sck monkey nutts.  In those terms.  The only conservative and libertarian opinions you hear are on "fringe radio" and by ... us.  The people.  The tea party.  Bloggers.  Posters.  Who are quickly turned into monsters by the powerful media.

Point is this -- Republicans would HATE me.  Hate me.  They hate conservatives and libertarians.  We're not invited to the "party."  Big p or little p.  Not invited.  And the goal of the left (one of the goals) is to make John Boner, and the rest of the Republicans believe we're "bad."  Toxic.  Poison.  And John Boner goes along, cuz John Boner likes monky sack.  I guess.



Now... back to yer point.  Yes, it stinks that things erode so quickly in these high-minded discussions.  Yes, it's juvenile.  But, you need to understand -- they started it.  They started ALL OF IT.  You can quote me on that.

The Left fcks us.  Everyday.  And folks like me are only pointing it out.  I'm just reacting to the mindless, dckless sht they do EVERY FICKING DAY to this country.  They did it.  Not us.  They're the fcks shitting in your coffee.  They're the fcks, shtting in the sand box -- every fcking morning.  So to speak.

So... I'm just pointing it all out.   Wink

I guess this is like trying to plead some evolution argument with a fundamentalist Christian who sees Jesus in mold stains under the sink.... It's pointless....

Someone's "started" every awful thing in human history, yet it's been the arrogant and vicious aggressors who've leapt on the opportunity to be "righteous" that have done the most damage........

And the train rolls on.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 09:19:11 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2014, 05:46:14 PM »

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the captain
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2014, 05:50:18 PM »

While this is all true... the sport of which you speak is not actually played in national politics.  It's not.  The liberals/left do.  And that's why they win.  They play.

The Republicans?  Don't make me laugh.  They sck monkey nutts.  In those terms.  The only conservative and libertarian opinions you hear are on "fringe radio" and by ... us.  The people.  The tea party.  Bloggers.  Posters.  Who are quickly turned into monsters by the powerful media.

Point is this -- Republicans would HATE me.  Hate me.  They hate conservatives and libertarians.  We're not invited to the "party."  Big p or little p.  Not invited.  And the goal of the left (one of the goals) is to make John Boner, and the rest of the Republicans believe we're "bad."  Toxic.  Poison.  And John Boner goes along, cuz John Boner likes monky sack.  I guess.



Now... back to yer point.  Yes, it stinks that things erode so quickly in these high-minded discussions.  Yes, it's juvenile.  But, you need to understand -- they started it.  They started ALL OF IT.  You can quote me on that.

The Left fcks us.  Everyday.  And folks like me are only pointing it out.  I'm just reacting to the mindless, dckless sht they do EVERY FICKING DAY to this country.  They did it.  Not us.  They're the fcks shitting in your coffee.  They're the fcks, shtting in the sand box -- every fcking morning.  So to speak.

So... I'm just pointing it all out.   Wink

I want to say this as honestly and humbly as possible. Do you realize that this exact paragraph could be written and is regularly said by liberals I know? Literally every single thing (in reverse). That's the funny and/or pathetic part. Two camps, both playing, both saying they aren't playing, both saying the other is playing. It is so pathetic. I'm reminded why I don't want to have these conversations very often. If you can't talk about specific things and instead have to talk about the other en masse as some block of inferred motivations and deviances (I think I just made up that word), it can't possibly be productive. It starts from a position of impasse.
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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2014, 08:42:58 PM »

While this is all true... the sport of which you speak is not actually played in national politics.  It's not.  The liberals/left do.  And that's why they win.  They play.

The Republicans?  Don't make me laugh.  They sck monkey nutts.  In those terms.  The only conservative and libertarian opinions you hear are on "fringe radio" and by ... us.  The people.  The tea party.  Bloggers.  Posters.  Who are quickly turned into monsters by the powerful media.

Point is this -- Republicans would HATE me.  Hate me.  They hate conservatives and libertarians.  We're not invited to the "party."  Big p or little p.  Not invited.  And the goal of the left (one of the goals) is to make John Boner, and the rest of the Republicans believe we're "bad."  Toxic.  Poison.  And John Boner goes along, cuz John Boner likes monky sack.  I guess.



Now... back to yer point.  Yes, it stinks that things erode so quickly in these high-minded discussions.  Yes, it's juvenile.  But, you need to understand -- they started it.  They started ALL OF IT.  You can quote me on that.

The Left fcks us.  Everyday.  And folks like me are only pointing it out.  I'm just reacting to the mindless, dckless sht they do EVERY FICKING DAY to this country.  They did it.  Not us.  They're the fcks shitting in your coffee.  They're the fcks, shtting in the sand box -- every fcking morning.  So to speak.

So... I'm just pointing it all out.   Wink

I want to say this as honestly and humbly as possible. Do you realize that this exact paragraph could be written and is regularly said by liberals I know? Literally every single thing (in reverse). That's the funny and/or pathetic part. Two camps, both playing, both saying they aren't playing, both saying the other is playing. It is so pathetic. I'm reminded why I don't want to have these conversations very often. If you can't talk about specific things and instead have to talk about the other en masse as some block of inferred motivations and deviances (I think I just made up that word), it can't possibly be productive. It starts from a position of impasse.

Just between you and me, Cap'n... of course I realize this.  But don't tell... "them."  LOL  Perhaps that's the difference with me and some?  Who really knows.  But no... it's not going to be "productive."  Not as you mean it.  Clearly, the handwriting is on the wall regarding those pipe dreams, is it not?  If you've seen otherwise, do tell. 

Anyway, it's a little bit like asking a piston what his day's like.  Mostly, he's gonna say, "back n' forth."  And he's probably gonna sound quite angry about it -- as if he's looking for more.  However, don't expect the piston to know where the car's going, you know?  What I mean is, I've never -- almost never -- gotten anywhere with anybody on these topics.  That's not a dig against my tactics, but a realization that people need to decide for themselves.  So I proceed accordingly.   Razz


I digress... There's countless metaphors about the permanence of the "sides" -- good/evil, black/white, right/wrong.  Yin/yang.  You name it.  I don't think those are going away in this reality.  Do you?

Regardless.  Since you're here, and have lifted the hood -- you have made certain choices.  Decisions.  I'm not an expert on engines, but... I don't think there's much accomplished -- even less -- with engine parts that are wishy/washy and uncertain.  Outside of dirt and contaminants, I don't believe useless items are placed in engines in the first place.  What I'm trying to say is, most people pretend "they're above it."

Right?  Whether they are or not...  Grin
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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2014, 09:08:18 PM »

While this is all true... the sport of which you speak is not actually played in national politics.  It's not.  The liberals/left do.  And that's why they win.  They play.

The Republicans?  Don't make me laugh.  They sck monkey nutts.  In those terms.  The only conservative and libertarian opinions you hear are on "fringe radio" and by ... us.  The people.  The tea party.  Bloggers.  Posters.  Who are quickly turned into monsters by the powerful media.

Point is this -- Republicans would HATE me.  Hate me.  They hate conservatives and libertarians.  We're not invited to the "party."  Big p or little p.  Not invited.  And the goal of the left (one of the goals) is to make John Boner, and the rest of the Republicans believe we're "bad."  Toxic.  Poison.  And John Boner goes along, cuz John Boner likes monky sack.  I guess.



Now... back to yer point.  Yes, it stinks that things erode so quickly in these high-minded discussions.  Yes, it's juvenile.  But, you need to understand -- they started it.  They started ALL OF IT.  You can quote me on that.

The Left fcks us.  Everyday.  And folks like me are only pointing it out.  I'm just reacting to the mindless, dckless sht they do EVERY FICKING DAY to this country.  They did it.  Not us.  They're the fcks shitting in your coffee.  They're the fcks, shtting in the sand box -- every fcking morning.  So to speak.

So... I'm just pointing it all out.   Wink

I want to say this as honestly and humbly as possible. Do you realize that this exact paragraph could be written and is regularly said by liberals I know? Literally every single thing (in reverse). That's the funny and/or pathetic part. Two camps, both playing, both saying they aren't playing, both saying the other is playing. It is so pathetic. I'm reminded why I don't want to have these conversations very often. If you can't talk about specific things and instead have to talk about the other en masse as some block of inferred motivations and deviances (I think I just made up that word), it can't possibly be productive. It starts from a position of impasse.

Just between you and me, Cap'n... of course I realize this.  But don't tell... "them."  LOL  Perhaps that's the difference with me and some?  Who really knows.  But no... it's not going to be "productive."  Not as you mean it.  Clearly, the handwriting is on the wall regarding those pipe dreams, is it not?  If you've seen otherwise, do tell.  

Anyway, it's a little bit like asking a piston what his day's like.  Mostly, he's gonna say, "back n' forth."  And he's probably gonna sound quite angry about it -- as if he's looking for more.  However, don't expect the piston to know where the car's going, you know?  What I mean is, I've never -- almost never -- gotten anywhere with anybody on these topics.  That's not a dig against my tactics, but a realization that people need to decide for themselves.  So I proceed accordingly.   Razz


I digress... There's countless metaphors about the permanence of the "sides" -- good/evil, black/white, right/wrong.  Yin/yang.  You name it.  I don't think those are going away in this reality.  Do you?

Regardless.  Since you're here, and have lifted the hood -- you have made certain choices.  Decisions.  I'm not an expert on engines, but... I don't think there's much accomplished -- even less -- with engine parts that are wishy/washy and uncertain.  Outside of dirt and contaminants, I don't believe useless items are placed in engines in the first place.  What I'm trying to say is, most people pretend "they're above it."

Right?  Whether they are or not...  Grin

Man, everything you write is really just about yourself and how you see yourself..... You have nothing to contribute, nor do you merely point things out as you claim. Rather, you spew your highly personalized view of things based upon an imaginary decision you made that veers dangerously close to paranoid psychosis.......

There is no need to respond to anything you might fart out from here on out. You show nothing but delusional disdain toward anyone who does not share your same relentless "views" regardless of the manner in which they communicate their input.

I might bust Guitarfool's balls but I highly respect that he puts a lot of research and effort into pleading his case and his high intelligence is more than obvious..... You basically just repeat your same one opinion but with pictures.... Yawn.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 09:30:01 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2014, 05:50:31 AM »

While this is all true... the sport of which you speak is not actually played in national politics.  It's not.  The liberals/left do.  And that's why they win.  They play.

The Republicans?  Don't make me laugh.  They sck monkey nutts.  In those terms.  The only conservative and libertarian opinions you hear are on "fringe radio" and by ... us.  The people.  The tea party.  Bloggers.  Posters.  Who are quickly turned into monsters by the powerful media.

Point is this -- Republicans would HATE me.  Hate me.  They hate conservatives and libertarians.  We're not invited to the "party."  Big p or little p.  Not invited.  And the goal of the left (one of the goals) is to make John Boner, and the rest of the Republicans believe we're "bad."  Toxic.  Poison.  And John Boner goes along, cuz John Boner likes monky sack.  I guess.



Now... back to yer point.  Yes, it stinks that things erode so quickly in these high-minded discussions.  Yes, it's juvenile.  But, you need to understand -- they started it.  They started ALL OF IT.  You can quote me on that.

The Left fcks us.  Everyday.  And folks like me are only pointing it out.  I'm just reacting to the mindless, dckless sht they do EVERY FICKING DAY to this country.  They did it.  Not us.  They're the fcks shitting in your coffee.  They're the fcks, shtting in the sand box -- every fcking morning.  So to speak.

So... I'm just pointing it all out.   Wink

I want to say this as honestly and humbly as possible. Do you realize that this exact paragraph could be written and is regularly said by liberals I know? Literally every single thing (in reverse). That's the funny and/or pathetic part. Two camps, both playing, both saying they aren't playing, both saying the other is playing. It is so pathetic. I'm reminded why I don't want to have these conversations very often. If you can't talk about specific things and instead have to talk about the other en masse as some block of inferred motivations and deviances (I think I just made up that word), it can't possibly be productive. It starts from a position of impasse.

Just between you and me, Cap'n... of course I realize this.  But don't tell... "them."  LOL  Perhaps that's the difference with me and some?  Who really knows.  But no... it's not going to be "productive."  Not as you mean it.  Clearly, the handwriting is on the wall regarding those pipe dreams, is it not?  If you've seen otherwise, do tell. 

Anyway, it's a little bit like asking a piston what his day's like.  Mostly, he's gonna say, "back n' forth."  And he's probably gonna sound quite angry about it -- as if he's looking for more.  However, don't expect the piston to know where the car's going, you know?  What I mean is, I've never -- almost never -- gotten anywhere with anybody on these topics.  That's not a dig against my tactics, but a realization that people need to decide for themselves.  So I proceed accordingly.   Razz


I digress... There's countless metaphors about the permanence of the "sides" -- good/evil, black/white, right/wrong.  Yin/yang.  You name it.  I don't think those are going away in this reality.  Do you?

Regardless.  Since you're here, and have lifted the hood -- you have made certain choices.  Decisions.  I'm not an expert on engines, but... I don't think there's much accomplished -- even less -- with engine parts that are wishy/washy and uncertain.  Outside of dirt and contaminants, I don't believe useless items are placed in engines in the first place.  What I'm trying to say is, most people pretend "they're above it."

Right?  Whether they are or not...  Grin
My problem with this is that the political-philosophical possibilities can't be boiled down to two mutually exclusive issues. The scopes of options are bigger than that. Further, a person might have an opinion more aligned with one (of two, of four, of ten) options on one issue, but with another one on another. We are not up-and-down pistons with no flexibility for left, right, forward, and back. The false dichotomy is a marketing tool that plays on people's arrogance and fear.

Do I see things changing? Sadly, no. But maybe the worst part about it is, people could get along. Things could change. (I'm not talking about some kind of utopia, I'm talking about diverse people agreeing to make practical, functional, incremental adjustments to improve problems.) But the system functions for the groups that run it as it is, and so they don't want to change it. Low approval ratings? Gridlock? Mudslinging? Platitudes? Artificial oversimplification just to stick to the talking points? It's fine for them.
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2014, 09:25:16 PM »

My problem with this is that the political-philosophical possibilities can't be boiled down to two mutually exclusive issues. The scopes of options are bigger than that. Further, a person might have an opinion more aligned with one (of two, of four, of ten) options on one issue, but with another one on another. We are not up-and-down pistons with no flexibility for left, right, forward, and back. The false dichotomy is a marketing tool that plays on people's arrogance and fear.

Do I see things changing? Sadly, no. But maybe the worst part about it is, people could get along. Things could change. (I'm not talking about some kind of utopia, I'm talking about diverse people agreeing to make practical, functional, incremental adjustments to improve problems.) But the system functions for the groups that run it as it is, and so they don't want to change it. Low approval ratings? Gridlock? Mudslinging? Platitudes? Artificial oversimplification just to stick to the talking points? It's fine for them.

Right.  I understand.  Everyone has different opinions on everything.  Diversity is under no threat of extinction.  But to win anything on a big scale -- you must form a team that presents a stark contrast from your opponent.  Because, eventually, it comes down to one or the other.  Without a contrast, people start to comment on silly things, like who has the best hair.  Who looked sleepy.  Or whatever.  Where's your diversity then?

Yes, individualism is key to our existence.  For example, I don't expect anyone to agree with me 100% of the time, even though I'm balls-on, accurate as hell on pretty much everything I say on these subjects.  Drumroll

But... good/evil, black/white, up/down -- those are real forces, too -- are they not?  Individualism has its opposite, too.  And despite Pinder's best efforts to make it about me, it's not all about me.  Hence, my piston analogy.  My point is it's ALSO about things much, much larger.  And it has nothing to do with me wanting it to be that way.  I'm just addressing reality as best I can.  The full scope of it.  And as flattering as Pinder's attempts are, I understand why he feels the need to do that.

To have any kind of direction and momentum, people need to get together.  Form a team.  And that team, to be successful, must present a streamlined force.  That's what should happen in the big leagues.  And that's what's not happening on the Republican side.  The Republicans are listening to the Pinders of the world -- thinking they should "cool it" and play nice.

To form a team, is to create a force larger than self.  To become a can of concentrated balls-on.  The Republicans (can I get a witness!) have not done this.  They do the opposite and form a soft, vague, flavorless Pinder-composite.  And what does that do?  Nothing.  It loses.  By design.

Seriously... the reality of any situation must be present in any decision to address said situation.  And the reality of this situation is ONE or the OTHER.  People are going to the polls like a piston -- up or down.  And there's two ways to present your side -- flavorless, not to offend.  Or bold, to present clarity.  And if there is room for an engine-analogy in this grand discussion, which approach do you think will work best?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 09:27:17 PM by Bean Bag » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2014, 09:38:15 PM »

My problem with this is that the political-philosophical possibilities can't be boiled down to two mutually exclusive issues. The scopes of options are bigger than that. Further, a person might have an opinion more aligned with one (of two, of four, of ten) options on one issue, but with another one on another. We are not up-and-down pistons with no flexibility for left, right, forward, and back. The false dichotomy is a marketing tool that plays on people's arrogance and fear.

Do I see things changing? Sadly, no. But maybe the worst part about it is, people could get along. Things could change. (I'm not talking about some kind of utopia, I'm talking about diverse people agreeing to make practical, functional, incremental adjustments to improve problems.) But the system functions for the groups that run it as it is, and so they don't want to change it. Low approval ratings? Gridlock? Mudslinging? Platitudes? Artificial oversimplification just to stick to the talking points? It's fine for them.

Right.  I understand.  Everyone has different opinions on everything.  Diversity is under no threat of extinction.  But to win anything on a big scale -- you must form a team that presents a stark contrast from your opponent.  Because, eventually, it comes down to one or the other.  Without a contrast, people start to comment on silly things, like who has the best hair.  Who looked sleepy.  Or whatever.  Where's your diversity then?

Yes, individualism is key to our existence.  For example, I don't expect anyone to agree with me 100% of the time, even though I'm balls-on, accurate as hell on pretty much everything I say on these subjects.  Drumroll

But... good/evil, black/white, up/down -- those are real forces, too -- are they not?  Individualism has its opposite, too.  And despite Pinder's best efforts to make it about me, it's not all about me.  Hence, my piston analogy.  My point is it's ALSO about things much, much larger.  And it has nothing to do with me wanting it to be that way.  I'm just addressing reality as best I can.  The full scope of it.  And as flattering as Pinder's attempts are, I understand why he feels the need to do that.

To have any kind of direction and momentum, people need to get together.  Form a team.  And that team, to be successful, must present a streamlined force.  That's what should happen in the big leagues.  And that's what's not happening on the Republican side.  The Republicans are listening to the Pinders of the world -- thinking they should "cool it" and play nice.

To form a team, is to create a force larger than self.  To become a can of concentrated balls-on.  The Republicans (can I get a witness!) have not done this.  They do the opposite and form a soft, vague, flavorless Pinder-composite.  And what does that do?  Nothing.  It loses.  By design.

Seriously... the reality of any situation must be present in any decision to address said situation.  And the reality of this situation is ONE or the OTHER.  People are going to the polls like a piston -- up or down.  And there's two ways to present your side -- flavorless, not to offend.  Or bold, to present clarity.  And if there is room for an engine-analogy in this grand discussion, which approach do you think will work best?

It's not my efforts to make it all about you. It's your own efforts.....

And you're right. I completely agree with what you say here, black white, up, down, good, evil are all real forces! Well, up, down are. Good/evil...... those are basically our own inventions just like "the left" and "the Pinders of the world" ....

Once again, you simply can't refrain from trying to quantify people, ideas, views, reality into black and white boxes to fit your own world view. Fair enough, but just quit proclaiming how correct you are about everything because then, aside from the basic lack of modesty, you can't grow or develop as a person because you've already decided you know it all and are correct...... which makes it easy to see how in your mind, you're simply pointing out facts and don't come off as messy and confused, and indoctrinated as those you look down upon..... But please understand, I agree with the meat of what you wrote.

I don't know why we can't just understand and accept that even though we might be "right wingers" or whatever and cocksure that we are correct, it does not mean no one has the right or even the duty to present an opposing or merely different view.... This endless harping on "the left" and "they started it" gets us nowhere. Especially on a board/thread like this where basically even the most extreme "leftie" in your view still opposes Obama and just about all he's done. Just because they won't denounce their core beliefs in order to do so, does not make them just another flea on the back of "the problem" .... If that makes any sense.... If everyone you accuse of being part of the "left" went "right" then you'd just end up with different factions of "the right" who don't agree with each other..... Just like religion and every other con game mankind has dreamed up in order to pat themselves on the back for being "correct"


« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 09:48:55 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2014, 11:08:54 AM »

It's not my efforts to make it all about you. It's your own efforts.....

And you're right. I completely agree with what you say here, black white, up, down, good, evil are all real forces! Well, up, down are. Good/evil...... those are basically our own inventions just like "the left" and "the Pinders of the world" ....

Once again, you simply can't refrain from trying to quantify people, ideas, views, reality into black and white boxes to fit your own world view. Fair enough, but just quit proclaiming how correct you are about everything because then, aside from the basic lack of modesty, you can't grow or develop as a person because you've already decided you know it all and are correct...... which makes it easy to see how in your mind, you're simply pointing out facts and don't come off as messy and confused, and indoctrinated as those you look down upon..... But please understand, I agree with the meat of what you wrote.

I don't know why we can't just understand and accept that even though we might be "right wingers" or whatever and cocksure that we are correct, it does not mean no one has the right or even the duty to present an opposing or merely different view.... This endless harping on "the left" and "they started it" gets us nowhere. Especially on a board/thread like this where basically even the most extreme "leftie" in your view still opposes Obama and just about all he's done. Just because they won't denounce their core beliefs in order to do so, does not make them just another flea on the back of "the problem" .... If that makes any sense.... If everyone you accuse of being part of the "left" went "right" then you'd just end up with different factions of "the right" who don't agree with each other..... Just like religion and every other con game mankind has dreamed up in order to pat themselves on the back for being "correct"

Can we ever truly separate ourselves -- from anything?  I think the answer is no.  Everything you just wrote was about you -- how you feel about how you want me to discuss things.  I do accept the way you discuss things.  And my response is to discuss things how I best discuss things.  Right?  If I didn't accept your methods, I would, like you, be demanding that you start attacking things in the manner in which I do.  So clearly, I'm demonstrating acceptance, while you are not.  Very ironical.

Yes, I enjoy attacking the Left and the Stupid, Play-Along, Wishy-Washy, Mushy Republicans.  Because, I see them as the problem with all government.  So why should I not attack that which I see as the problem?  Just to appease you?  I would appease, if you held the keys to fix all this... but you don't (do you?).  So, I want others to understand the real issues that I have identified.  If you think I'm the real issue, then by all means... continue to alert people about the threat I pose.


So... yes, I see government as a very strong agent -- limiting choice.  Thus, it should be used very sparingly -- only because you, me and everyone else is flawed.  And people no better than you (but not me, clearly) are seeking government positions -- and using this extremely powerful agent to make people do things their way.  The Left and their Republican friends are all too eager to use this government -- for every, fcking thing in the world.  That's bad for everybody.

So, I'm going to continue to point out this flaw in their logic.  How it is bad and wasteful, immoral and hurtful and destructive.  Because it is.  And one of the best ways, I think, to illuminate this, is to pick on the bullies that are doing this.  Obama is a bully.  I want people to understand that he is.  The things he says and does are mean and creepy.  He is using government to make the country into something he wants.  It's all about him.
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« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2014, 11:19:54 AM »

But what's the point in endlessly just pointing out the same exact thing over and over and over and over well past the point of redundancy, with not a single idea presented? ..... Complainers are a dime a dozen.

Besides, I cry fowl on these views you endlessly push out there. You don't want limited government (OK, maybe not YOU, but those Libertarian "anarchists" you're so fond of and identify with: who are few in numbers but propped up by heavy corporate financial support mixed with electoral gerrymandering) you (they) just want government to impose no limits on concentrated, corporate/private power, and you (they) want a society subordinate to this power. You cry and moan about "The State" and "State Power" and you oppose any/all forms of it EXCEPT the current/reigning form which supports and enables those systems which sustain this concentrated private/corporate power. You hate Obama and bash him everyday, but you suck at the tit of the same power base which has enabled him. And they have you right where they want you: raging at the scarecrow-empty suit in The White House..... You talk all roses and flowers about your childlike fantasy of the free market. Which, I would happily support: if it existed, and your little illusion/delusion is good enough for you. Which once again brings us to your need to sit back and see yourself as just some inactive pointer outer of things.... Bullshite! You are a spokesmen for this corporate/private/state power, yes STATE power. Your reasons might be delusional, but it makes little difference. Do I hold the keys or answers to any of this? No, but at least I have ideas and don't just sit on my ass and "point things out" to the 3 or 4 fellow right wingers on this board and the rest who don't agree with a single damn thing you say. If you're just pointing things out or illuminating things, why not find a more positive venue in which to do so? Or take it to the streets. There are many many ways to put one's politics into action like I do (I won't bore you with those details) but I know it's so much easier to sit back and sink into internet fantasy where, in your mind, you really are not the biggest and worst form of a Statist.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 12:15:11 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2014, 03:14:38 PM »

Just a couple of quick comments in response before I bow out, because I don't think this is very constructive. I do appreciate your lack of name-calling, though. It's a start.  Grin

Oh, also, I've removed all and not responded to any of the Pinder insults because that's none of my business and not my fight.

Right.  I understand.  Everyone has different opinions on everything.  Diversity is under no threat of extinction.  But to win anything on a big scale -- you must form a team that presents a stark contrast from your opponent.  Because, eventually, it comes down to one or the other.  Without a contrast, people start to comment on silly things, like who has the best hair.  Who looked sleepy.  Or whatever.  Where's your diversity then?

You're correct in a way on some of this, but yet (to my perspective, which I wholly acknowledge, here) still coming at things from the wrong place. Yes, to win in a political environment, one must find stark contrasts--even when those contrasts are mostly artificial or trumped-up for the sake of fear-mongering or salaciousness--with one's opponent. Yet it would be possible (easy, even) to differentiate on more realistic and less prurient grounds. Instead we're prone to devolution. But the very mentality of "winning" is one that I think poisons our political environment. "Solving" would be a better word. As long as there are elections, there is winning and losing, but letting the game of elections supersede the reality of political progress is, to me, a horrific reality.

But... good/evil, black/white, up/down -- those are real forces, too -- are they not?  Individualism has its opposite, too.  And despite Pinder's best efforts to make it about me, it's not all about me.  Hence, my piston analogy.  My point is it's ALSO about things much, much larger.  And it has nothing to do with me wanting it to be that way.  I'm just addressing reality as best I can.  The full scope of it.
I don't believe that there are always such simple this-or-that forces, no. To play on your examples, there are only up and down when there is also gravity; there is only black and white when there are human capacities to filter certain frequencies of waves in our minds and eyes; and (the one that won't go over well) there are only good and evil when we, as a society over thousands of years, have decided what forms of behavior fit into those concepts (which we have created). And where those behaviors fall changes over time, depending on how society changes. (I fully recognize that a large percentage of people disagree with this idea.) Some critics of this idea say that this removes any reason to behave in what is generally considered a moral way, as there is no ultimate, overarching, objective morality. I disagree, saying that the wisdom and progress of a species, coupled with one's own convictions, is more powerful than an external concept imposed on us (typically in a religious context and under threat of eternal reward or punishment--meaning behavior is less governed by morality or ethics and more by desire for reward or fear of punishment).

To have any kind of direction and momentum, people need to get together.  Form a team.  And that team, to be successful, must present a streamlined force.
This, I agree with. But we can make a bigger team with more people involved and behind it by listening to one another and finding more common ground, as opposed to spending so much time villifying our political or philosophical opponents, which aggravates both real and imagined differences, as well as hurting feelings (a know that sounds like a naieve way to say it, but that is what it comes down to: you called us this! we call you that! HA!).
 
Seriously... the reality of any situation must be present in any decision to address said situation.
Agree.

And the reality of this situation is ONE or the OTHER.
Disagree.

 People are going to the polls like a piston -- up or down.
Agree.

 And there's two ways to present your side -- flavorless, not to offend.  Or bold, to present clarity.  
Disagree.

And if there is room for an engine-analogy in this grand discussion, which approach do you think will work best?
I don't know sh*t about engines.  Grin

Anyway, as I said, I don't really think this discussion is going to bear fruit, especially since we're not actually addressing the topic of the thread at all. (I don't think anyone ever did respond to my initial comments on that.) So I'm bowing out. But it was nice talking to you. I hope you don't think I'm some flavorless, watered-down-so-as-not-to-offend, milquetoast liberal. Whatever nuance I'm seeking, trust me, it's not to exclude clarity or strength of message. Cheers.
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« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2014, 03:38:27 PM »

Just a couple of quick comments in response before I bow out, because I don't think this is very constructive. I do appreciate your lack of name-calling, though. It's a start.  Grin

Oh, also, I've removed all and not responded to any of the Pinder insults because that's none of my business and not my fight.

Right.  I understand.  Everyone has different opinions on everything.  Diversity is under no threat of extinction.  But to win anything on a big scale -- you must form a team that presents a stark contrast from your opponent.  Because, eventually, it comes down to one or the other.  Without a contrast, people start to comment on silly things, like who has the best hair.  Who looked sleepy.  Or whatever.  Where's your diversity then?

You're correct in a way on some of this, but yet (to my perspective, which I wholly acknowledge, here) still coming at things from the wrong place. Yes, to win in a political environment, one must find stark contrasts--even when those contrasts are mostly artificial or trumped-up for the sake of fear-mongering or salaciousness--with one's opponent. Yet it would be possible (easy, even) to differentiate on more realistic and less prurient grounds. Instead we're prone to devolution. But the very mentality of "winning" is one that I think poisons our political environment. "Solving" would be a better word. As long as there are elections, there is winning and losing, but letting the game of elections supersede the reality of political progress is, to me, a horrific reality.

But... good/evil, black/white, up/down -- those are real forces, too -- are they not?  Individualism has its opposite, too.  And despite Pinder's best efforts to make it about me, it's not all about me.  Hence, my piston analogy.  My point is it's ALSO about things much, much larger.  And it has nothing to do with me wanting it to be that way.  I'm just addressing reality as best I can.  The full scope of it.
I don't believe that there are always such simple this-or-that forces, no. To play on your examples, there are only up and down when there is also gravity; there is only black and white when there are human capacities to filter certain frequencies of waves in our minds and eyes; and (the one that won't go over well) there are only good and evil when we, as a society over thousands of years, have decided what forms of behavior fit into those concepts (which we have created). And where those behaviors fall changes over time, depending on how society changes. (I fully recognize that a large percentage of people disagree with this idea.) Some critics of this idea say that this removes any reason to behave in what is generally considered a moral way, as there is no ultimate, overarching, objective morality. I disagree, saying that the wisdom and progress of a species, coupled with one's own convictions, is more powerful than an external concept imposed on us (typically in a religious context and under threat of eternal reward or punishment--meaning behavior is less governed by morality or ethics and more by desire for reward or fear of punishment).

To have any kind of direction and momentum, people need to get together.  Form a team.  And that team, to be successful, must present a streamlined force.
This, I agree with. But we can make a bigger team with more people involved and behind it by listening to one another and finding more common ground, as opposed to spending so much time villifying our political or philosophical opponents, which aggravates both real and imagined differences, as well as hurting feelings (a know that sounds like a naieve way to say it, but that is what it comes down to: you called us this! we call you that! HA!).
 
Seriously... the reality of any situation must be present in any decision to address said situation.
Agree.

And the reality of this situation is ONE or the OTHER.
Disagree.

 People are going to the polls like a piston -- up or down.
Agree.

 And there's two ways to present your side -- flavorless, not to offend.  Or bold, to present clarity.  
Disagree.

And if there is room for an engine-analogy in this grand discussion, which approach do you think will work best?
I don't know sh*t about engines.  Grin

Anyway, as I said, I don't really think this discussion is going to bear fruit, especially since we're not actually addressing the topic of the thread at all. (I don't think anyone ever did respond to my initial comments on that.) So I'm bowing out. But it was nice talking to you. I hope you don't think I'm some flavorless, watered-down-so-as-not-to-offend, milquetoast liberal. Whatever nuance I'm seeking, trust me, it's not to exclude clarity or strength of message. Cheers.

Don't bow out, and be careful not to be TOO polite! The Bean won't go any easier on you for it, and he loves it when I get all steamed up.... Wink

"Pinder insults"? Ouch! But yeah, I do often take it too far, and for that I am not proud. But I think the lot around here can take it and actually get off on it a bit, So, it is what it is.... I think Bean gets to me mainly because I am basically jealous of the brilliant simplicity of his views and I can remember a time when I shared them to the T. No matter how much I might disagree, I love sparring with the guy. Smart folks talking politics are in short supply, which is why I keep coming back to these threads no matter how crazy it all drives me.
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