Shocking Labor Rate #s: People Are NOT Getting Jobs

[Bean Bag]

92 Million Americans are not working???   

This is truly unbelievable.  Last I heard, there was only 350 million people in the country -- of which how many are kids, elderly, etc?  This is staggering.  Even for me, and I understand the evil goals of the President and his Communication Department (formerly known as "The Press"). 

But this is sickening.  Each one of those blips, are a family, a Mom, a Dad out of work.  I know folks in my neighborhood looking for work -- for MONTHS.  Cashing out 401ks to keep their homes. I've seen MASSIVE layoffs at my current and previous employer -- a few of which have resulted in suicides.  But even with all that -- I still find these numbers unreal.
. 


What's Obama doing about it?  Well, he's out there lying - saying it's a "recovery."

The media?  Covering "the Bridge Scandal."  What bridge scandal?  Exactly. 

[Mendota Heights]

But even with all that -- I still find these numbers unreal.

It is because they are not real. B(L)S is at it again. All markets and all statistics are rigged to keep the current system going another 5 years or so.

Everyone knows it. And everyone is playing along.

[guitarfool2002]

Of course the stats are rigged, it even came out that the Obama 2012 campaign which ran in part on better-than-expected jobs numbers were running on stats that were deliberately inflated and "rigged" to make the numbers better than they actually were.

But there is or was no retribution or consequence to be paid, so it just drifts into the dustbin of history that jobs statistics were artificially inflated, rigged, books were cooked, and a campaign used these lies to make things appear better than they actually were.

Now we get numbers which are looking pretty bleak.

The truth lies somewhere in between, where jobs and jobless numbers have been stagnant and pretty much dormant (and bad) for years.

And despite promises and speeches and rallies and the like, remember all those "shovel ready jobs" claims, nothing is improving.

And the claims of "recovery" are also being tied into the stock market, posting record highs and whatnot. But as anyone with a brain can understand, the health of the economy is not directly related to the health of the stock market, especially where you have a Fed that makes and sets policies designed to boost and enhance the health of said stock market.

Take it for what it's worth. I'll say again, you can keep your eyes shut as tightly as possible but because you choose to not see what's happening that doesn't mean it's not happening.

[the captain]

I don't know in the longer term how (near-) full employment in the U.S. at good wages can come about without significant political changes--changes that I don't claim to know, especially in that I am going to admit right up front that whatever knowledge of economics I have is secondary or common sense. I've never so much as taken an accounting course. (I can count! I can do basic math! But my education was music and journalism, and my profession is marketing. The theories of economics are outside of my experience.)

This is because the goal of businesses is not full employment, but making profits, and the former does not necessarily lead to the latter. In fact, it may well be contrary to the latter (in a mature "commoditized" industry that isn't likely to grow, anyway). The entire concept/expectation of indefinite annual profit growth when taken to an extreme would seem to be that the eventual resulting perfect company consists of one employee--an owner--making 100% of the profits with as low as possible expenses in all phases of the business. (Obviously that is mostly a theoretical ideal, not a typical reality.) So the typical libertarian/free market idea of just getting government out of the way and letting private businesses run their course doesn't seem to me remotely likely to result in full employment, but rather the increasing dominance of those companies or people already in a position to succeed.

If you're an American or European, free markets will result in jobs continuing to go to less developed areas where labor is cheaper. (As those countries' populations see the benefits of this and build middle classes, it repeats itself to other less developed countries.) The idea of the developed nations becoming "knowledge economies" sounds great, as if eventually everyone in the developed nations would be the owner of some Internet startup or consulting firm while low-to-middle wage jobs in sectors like manufacturing traditionally but increasingly others are all that we lose. But concept doesn't apply to everyone. Not everyone can or will be in that professional class, that startup class, etc. What seems most likely to me is what we see, which is a gap between the successful ownership class in a "knowledge economy" and the service job class to, well, serve them. And anything that can be outsourced or automated will be.

A libertarian position might be that this is fine--that how it works out is how it works out--and I'm not really trying to argue the political-philosophical aspect of it, but rather just what I see as the reality of it: that the goal is not full employment, and thus we ought not be surprised when we do not have full employment.

In case I am coming off as an anti-free market capitalist--which admittedly would be my leaning, though I'm not subscribed to any doctrines and usually end up exactly the kind of pragmatist/compromiser that people love to hate--I'll also say that in my profession I spend* a lot of time navigating government regulations and wholly agree that they do not favor typical businesses (though I'd strongly, strongly, strongly suspect most such labyrinths were created by and for favored businesses). While government theoretically may be of assistance in such matters as jumpstarting or maintaining an economy (and in this conversation, full employment), that doesn't mean it is.

Hope that was remotely coherent.

*waste

[Mendota Heights]

In case I am coming off as an anti-free market capitalist...

What's an anti-free market capitalist? A capitalist is per definition a free market person.

[the captain]

In case I am coming off as an anti-free market capitalist...

What's an anti-free market capitalist? A capitalist is per definition a free market person.

It's an incoherent run-on term that probably should have included a slash. Anti-free market/capitalist. Or anti-free marketer/capitalist. Point being I am not a disciple of free markets or of unfettered capitalism.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well brace yourself. You are in a lions den of "free market" religious zealots here, long on rehtoric and bluster but short on coherent thought or logic. Guitarfool, for instance, seems to think that if you spill enough (virtual) ink on a given topic you can sell a guy a flamethrower in hell, while Bean Bag just skips ahead to the pictures.

[guitarfool2002]

Well brace yourself. You are in a lions den of "free market" religious zealots here, long on rehtoric and bluster but short on coherent thought or logic. Guitarfool, for instance, seems to think that if you spill enough (virtual) ink on a given topic you can sell a guy a flamethrower in hell, while Bean Bag just skips ahead to the pictures.

I thought you were above that kind of thing, but I guess not. Totally uncalled for. What a dick move, seriously. What the f***?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well brace yourself. You are in a lions den of "free market" religious zealots here, long on rehtoric and bluster but short on coherent thought or logic. Guitarfool, for instance, seems to think that if you spill enough (virtual) ink on a given topic you can sell a guy a flamethrower in hell, while Bean Bag just skips ahead to the pictures.

I thought you were above that kind of thing, but I guess not. Totally uncalled for. What a dick move, seriously. What the f***?

Hey, the guy deserves to know what he's in for: ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BOW DOWN TO FREE MARKET CAPITALISM AND DOES NOT SEE IT AS PERFECT AND INFALLIBLE IS A STATIST/COMMUNIST/MARXIST!!!!!!!!

[the captain]

Well brace yourself. You are in a lions den of "free market" religious zealots here, long on rehtoric and bluster but short on coherent thought or logic. Guitarfool, for instance, seems to think that if you spill enough (virtual) ink on a given topic you can sell a guy a flamethrower in hell, while Bean Bag just skips ahead to the pictures.

I thought you were above that kind of thing, but I guess not. Totally uncalled for. What a dick move, seriously. What the f***?

Hey, the guy deserves to know what he's in for: ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BOW DOWN TO FREE MARKET CAPITALISM AND DOES NOT SEE IT AS PERFECT AND INFALLIBLE IS A STATIST/COMMUNIST/MARXIST!!!!!!!!

I keep my eyes on the political threads around here, I just rarely feel like contributing. So I know what I'm in for, more or less. But I appreciate the concern. 

[Jason]

Well brace yourself. You are in a lions den of "free market" religious zealots here, long on rehtoric and bluster but short on coherent thought or logic. Guitarfool, for instance, seems to think that if you spill enough (virtual) ink on a given topic you can sell a guy a flamethrower in hell, while Bean Bag just skips ahead to the pictures.

I thought you were above that kind of thing, but I guess not. Totally uncalled for. What a dick move, seriously. What the f***?

Hey, the guy deserves to know what he's in for: ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BOW DOWN TO FREE MARKET CAPITALISM AND DOES NOT SEE IT AS PERFECT AND INFALLIBLE IS A STATIST/COMMUNIST/MARXIST!!!!!!!!

Straw man.

[Bean Bag]

Well brace yourself. You are in a lions den of "free market" religious zealots here, long on rehtoric and bluster but short on coherent thought or logic. Guitarfool, for instance, seems to think that if you spill enough (virtual) ink on a given topic you can sell a guy a flamethrower in hell, while Bean Bag just skips ahead to the pictures.

I thought you were above that kind of thing, but I guess not. Totally uncalled for. What a dick move, seriously. What the f***?

Hey, the guy deserves to know what he's in for: ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BOW DOWN TO FREE MARKET CAPITALISM AND DOES NOT SEE IT AS PERFECT AND INFALLIBLE IS A STATIST/COMMUNIST/MARXIST!!!!!!!!

Never said that.  But, as a boss of mine said, you're either growing or dying.  Learning and getting better or not.  And the country is certainly in the latter column.  Shrinking and withering. 

America's Dwindling Economic Freedom
Regulation, taxes and debt knock the U.S. out of the world's top 10

This is either good or bad.  I say bad.  But some would say its good, and those people should be fired.  Sorry to be so "scary black n' white" about this crap.  But gee-whiz, Pinder.  I'm just being decisive.  Debate and nuance is fun to a degree, for some.  But at some point you gotta man up and stay in the game or fold.

I'm not calling everyone who is unable (or unwilling) to see the truth, "a Statist."  I'm simply calling Statists, "Statists."  They exist.  I'm pointing them out -- and their results.  And trying to get people to make a decision -- do you want more of this?  Or would you like to try heading in the other direction... the free market.  More freedom.  More choice.  Power to the people.  OR, shall we stay the course of more government, more control, more taxes -- less freedom.

And you have made a decision, more or less.  And I think you agree with me.   

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well brace yourself. You are in a lions den of "free market" religious zealots here, long on rehtoric and bluster but short on coherent thought or logic. Guitarfool, for instance, seems to think that if you spill enough (virtual) ink on a given topic you can sell a guy a flamethrower in hell, while Bean Bag just skips ahead to the pictures.

I thought you were above that kind of thing, but I guess not. Totally uncalled for. What a dick move, seriously. What the f***?

Hey, the guy deserves to know what he's in for: ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BOW DOWN TO FREE MARKET CAPITALISM AND DOES NOT SEE IT AS PERFECT AND INFALLIBLE IS A STATIST/COMMUNIST/MARXIST!!!!!!!!

Never said that.  But, as a boss of mine said, you're either growing or dying.  Learning and getting better or not.  And the country is certainly in the latter column.  Shrinking and withering.  

America's Dwindling Economic Freedom
Regulation, taxes and debt knock the U.S. out of the world's top 10

This is either good or bad.  I say bad.  But some would say its good, and those people should be fired.  Sorry to be so "scary black n' white" about this crap.  But gee-whiz, Pinder.  I'm just being decisive.  Debate and nuance is fun to a degree, for some.  But at some point you gotta man up and stay in the game or fold.

I'm not calling everyone who is unable (or unwilling) to see the truth, "a Statist."  I'm simply calling Statists, "Statists."  They exist.  I'm pointing them out -- and their results.  And trying to get people to make a decision -- do you want more of this?  Or would you like to try heading in the other direction... the free market.  More freedom.  More choice.  Power to the people.  OR, shall we stay the course of more government, more control, more taxes -- less freedom.

And you have made a decision, more or less.  And I think you agree with me.  

Debate and nuance is all we have and they are abilities we are lucky to have, otherwise the world would be as black and white as you've decided that it is. Sorry that poking little holes in your cave drawings upsets you, but you and your free market nazi cohorts are extremely dangerous individuals who welcome the end of human evolution just because it makes your kool-aid taste better ...... Do you really think human freedom is a subject that can fit so neatly into your little kindergarten definitions such as "free market" "government" "Marxism"? I'm sure you do think that and it's what keeps you smug and dismissive, but too many people around the globe know better and it's a massive insult that some fat and ignorant American thinks he knows better. I agree with you on some things as I've always pointed out, yet you just keep on going, calling people names and reducing reality to a few stupid pictures pulled up from Google because it makes you feel tough and superior...... News flash: you are neither. And your sad and angry yes-men aren't either..... You're like a guy being gang raped on the floor by the government and the "free market" and due to the stress and horror, you've imagined that one of the rapists is your friend. Pathetic.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well brace yourself. You are in a lions den of "free market" religious zealots here, long on rehtoric and bluster but short on coherent thought or logic. Guitarfool, for instance, seems to think that if you spill enough (virtual) ink on a given topic you can sell a guy a flamethrower in hell, while Bean Bag just skips ahead to the pictures.

I thought you were above that kind of thing, but I guess not. Totally uncalled for. What a dick move, seriously. What the f***?

Hey, the guy deserves to know what he's in for: ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BOW DOWN TO FREE MARKET CAPITALISM AND DOES NOT SEE IT AS PERFECT AND INFALLIBLE IS A STATIST/COMMUNIST/MARXIST!!!!!!!!

Straw man.

Oh really? I guess if you're in the habit of selectively editing what you take in from these threads, which is your right as a "moderator"

[guitarfool2002]

Ahhhh....capitalism....



Wilson Staff is touting its new "Eco-Carry" golf stand bag as "the first golf bag on the market made from 100-percent recycled polyester fabric."

The fabric is called GreenPlus, and it's made from 12 one-gallon plastic bottles. The production process is explained by Wilson Staff thusly:

    In the initial manufacturing phase, the plastic bottles are crushed into plastic flakes. The flakes are then transformed into a stable fiber through a process called de-polymerization and re-polymerization. Lastly, the stable fibers produced from this process are woven into a filament yarn that is used as the fabric for the final product.

Sticking with the green theme, the Wilson Staff Eco-Carry comes in a moss green color scheme. The bag weighs in at 3.7 pounds and comes with a built-in, paddle-activated stand; double strap and ergonomic hip pad; a six-way divider top and a soft neoprene handle.

The Wilson Staff Eco-Carry golf bag debuts with an MSRP of $129.99. Visit wilsonstaff.com for more info.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Ahhhh....capitalism....



Wilson Staff is touting its new "Eco-Carry" golf stand bag as "the first golf bag on the market made from 100-percent recycled polyester fabric."

The fabric is called GreenPlus, and it's made from 12 one-gallon plastic bottles. The production process is explained by Wilson Staff thusly:

    In the initial manufacturing phase, the plastic bottles are crushed into plastic flakes. The flakes are then transformed into a stable fiber through a process called de-polymerization and re-polymerization. Lastly, the stable fibers produced from this process are woven into a filament yarn that is used as the fabric for the final product.

Sticking with the green theme, the Wilson Staff Eco-Carry comes in a moss green color scheme. The bag weighs in at 3.7 pounds and comes with a built-in, paddle-activated stand; double strap and ergonomic hip pad; a six-way divider top and a soft neoprene handle.

The Wilson Staff Eco-Carry golf bag debuts with an MSRP of $129.99. Visit wilsonstaff.com for more info.

And your point is?

I'm a fan of anything ...... when it works...... and will be critical when it doesn't.... Once again: that's life. Quit trying to reduce it to a child's notion of black and white.

[guitarfool2002]

Meanwhile back at the ranch, with everything else going on including the dismal employment situation and the health care mess, this is what a group of democrats chooses to focus on:

By Daniel Arkin, Staff Writer, NBC News

A group of senators on Tuesday sharply criticized a comedy bit during the Sunday broadcast of the Golden Globes that featured actress Julia Louis-Dreyfus puffing on an electronic cigarette, accusing the awards show of "glamorizing" the controversial devices.

"In light of studies showing that exposure to on-screen smoking is a major contributor to smoking initiation among youth, we are troubled that these images glamorize smoking and serve as celebrity endorsements that could encourage young fans to begin smoking traditional cigarettes or e-cigarettes," the lawmakers said in an open letter to the producers of show.

The senators — Dick Durbin, D-IL, Richard Blumenthal, D-CT, Sherrod Brown, D-OH, and Edward J. Markey, D-MA — called on the Hollywood Foreign Press Association and NBC Universal to "take action to ensure that future broadcasts" don't make light of the health risks associated with tobacco.

Louis-Dreyfus — nominated at the ceremony for her roles in the film "Enough Said" and the television series "Veep" — was seen drawing from an "e-cigarette" and blowing smoke out of her mouth as part of a gag skewering haughty Hollywood behavior.

"She has really changed," co-host Amy Poehler deadpanned from the stage, as Louis-Dreyfus, wearing cat-eye sunglasses, caricatured a snooty star.

Leonardo DiCaprio, who took home a statuette for his performance in "The Wolf of Wall Street," could also be seen taking a drag from an e-cig during the broadcast.

The HFPA and NBC Universal did not have an immediate response to the letter.


Did anyone tell these idiots that E-cigs have no tobacco in them? 

I wonder if DiCaprio's E-cig was green.

[guitarfool2002]

And your point is?

I'm a fan of anything ...... when it works...... and will be critical when it doesn't.... Once again: that's life. Quit trying to reduce it to a child's notion of black and white.

My point is you need to seriously chill out, and don't fall into the usual trap of calling people who don't agree with you a "nazi" or anything of the sort. That's the entire fucking problem in a nutshell, as soon as it goes into that territory it offends more people than will ever be won over, even if it's trying to find common ground. And it makes the whole notion of various politicians and pundits bemoaning a "lack of civility" in political discourse look even more hypocritical than it already is.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And your point is?

I'm a fan of anything ...... when it works...... and will be critical when it doesn't.... Once again: that's life. Quit trying to reduce it to a child's notion of black and white.

My point is you need to seriously chill out, and don't fall into the usual trap of calling people who don't agree with you a "nazi" or anything of the sort. That's the entire fucking problem in a nutshell, as soon as it goes into that territory it offends more people than will ever be won over, even if it's trying to find common ground. And it makes the whole notion of various politicians and pundits bemoaning a "lack of civility" in political discourse look even more hypocritical than it already is.

But you see, I consider calling people statists just as awful as calling someone a Nazi, and just as much of a misrepresentation.

But you won me over with the E-cig thing.

I used to work for NBC/Universal and can assure you that, yes, they are that stupid

[guitarfool2002]

And your point is?

I'm a fan of anything ...... when it works...... and will be critical when it doesn't.... Once again: that's life. Quit trying to reduce it to a child's notion of black and white.

My point is you need to seriously chill out, and don't fall into the usual trap of calling people who don't agree with you a "nazi" or anything of the sort. That's the entire fucking problem in a nutshell, as soon as it goes into that territory it offends more people than will ever be won over, even if it's trying to find common ground. And it makes the whole notion of various politicians and pundits bemoaning a "lack of civility" in political discourse look even more hypocritical than it already is.

But you see, I consider calling people statists just as awful as calling someone a Nazi, and just as much of a misrepresentation.

But you won me over with the E-cig thing.

I used to work for NBC/Universal and can assure you that, yes, they are that stupid

NBC has some issues for sure! But I think it's more on the group of senators in this case, who are not only trying to regulate and ban something which is totally legal and has no tobacco content whatsoever based on their "perception" of the E-cig possibly leading to children wanting to try smoking.

It's pure, unbridled, government-control stupidity and hypocrisy at it's most ridiculous. It was the senators who are trying to pressure NBC and the groups behind the awards show to "limit" such images from their broadcast...that's f***ed up. What are they going to do next, write a "law" to keep the image of smoking an E-cig from being shown on TV? Please.

Consider this past month, if you watched most newscasts you were bombarded by images of marijuana smokers in Colorado toking up, along with the usual gang of clueless college-age stoner types extolling the virtues of being able to smoke legally. As much as I favor decriminalizing it, I wish they would keep these goofballs off the radar and find better spokespersons for issues like this. 

And it's amazing to me to have these democrats getting on their moral high horses over E-cigs considering just how much of a wasteland Hollywood culture really is, especially within a culture that sees drug abuse, alcohol abuse where getting ripped at trashy nightclubs in LA is glamorous, and where the real "hard drugs" like cocaine and heroin are accepted as part of the scene, if not glamorized as well.

And the image of an actress playing a staged comedy bit where she puffs on steam vapor from an E-cig is what enraged the politicians enough to send a threatening letter to the broadcaster and the awards show producers? And to also play the "protect the children" card and link a product which contains no tobacco to an anti-tobacco fetish a lot of these folks seem to share?

I'm sorry, that's just messed up. 

[SenorPotatoHead]

Statistics aren't needed.  All any American has to do is open their eyes and look around them to see how f***ed we are.   Running on empty, exhaust and grit.  This has been happening slowly over time for quite a while, increment by increment.  Obama was never going to be able to do anything to change the inevitable, for he is just another cog in a very well established and gargantuan wheel.  He, like Bush before him and Clinton before him and Bush Sr. before him (etc) are all part of the same machinery, the same problem.   Looking for leaders is no longer viable.  People need to start looking to themselves. 

[the captain]

Statistics aren't needed.  All any American has to do is open their eyes and look around them to see how f***ed we are.   

You could argue statistics are exactly what is needed because if people open their eyes, they only see what is in front of them, and from their own perspective, to boot. In other words, without statistics (or some other more broad gathering, aggregating, and inevitably interpreting) of information, one man's f***ed is another man's heaven is another man's in-between. This isn't an advertisement for the infallibility of statistics, by any means. It's just saying there is more than one reality at any given time, and "one's eyes" only give one (at most).

Obama was never going to be able to do anything to change the inevitable, for he is just another cog in a very well established and gargantuan wheel.  He, like Bush before him and Clinton before him and Bush Sr. before him (etc) are all part of the same machinery, the same problem.

That, I agree with.

Looking for leaders is no longer viable.  People need to start looking to themselves. 

That, I disagree with, because people "themselves" without leaders are disorganized messes of conflicting interests. If everyone looks to himself, the result is chaos. The status quo (in my opinion, if that doesn't go without saying) isn't great by any means, much less ideal, but it beats a leaderless mass of self-interested rebels.

[Gabo]

just raise the minimum wage and more people will be motivated to work. DUH!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Statistics aren't needed.  All any American has to do is open their eyes and look around them to see how f***ed we are.  

You could argue statistics are exactly what is needed because if people open their eyes, they only see what is in front of them, and from their own perspective, to boot. In other words, without statistics (or some other more broad gathering, aggregating, and inevitably interpreting) of information, one man's f***ed is another man's heaven is another man's in-between. This isn't an advertisement for the infallibility of statistics, by any means. It's just saying there is more than one reality at any given time, and "one's eyes" only give one (at most).

Obama was never going to be able to do anything to change the inevitable, for he is just another cog in a very well established and gargantuan wheel.  He, like Bush before him and Clinton before him and Bush Sr. before him (etc) are all part of the same machinery, the same problem.

That, I agree with.

Looking for leaders is no longer viable.  People need to start looking to themselves.  

That, I disagree with, because people "themselves" without leaders are disorganized messes of conflicting interests. If everyone looks to himself, the result is chaos. The status quo (in my opinion, if that doesn't go without saying) isn't great by any means, much less ideal, but it beats a leaderless mass of self-interested rebels.

I agree! We all want freedom and we don't want cops beating unarmed people to death in the street, but we also want them to come quickly when we call them. We love and want free enterprise and hate regulation yet we want to be able to feel safe getting on an airplane knowing someone doesn't have the freedom to cut corners on it's maintenance. We want to be able to drive as fast as we want but we don't want the guy behind us to have the freedom to ram us off the road because he wants to go faster.... It's really quite simple, and I think we can all get along here.... Someone needs to revel in and fight for our freedoms be they "market" freedoms or social things, and someone needs to fight to keep greed and laziness from costing lives.

[guitarfool2002]

No, we need a total crackdown and ban on E-cigarettes, that's the most pressing issue of the day. At least according to those four senators. 

Way to spend our money. Worthy of a "Solyndra" award for best overall fucking-over of the taxpayers.