New Mike interview in HuffPost

[Mikie]

places most of the blame on Murry and specifically appears to absolve Brian because basically Brian was too f-ed up and received bad legal advice while being f-ed up.

He says that about 1991-1992 Brian. Fair enough.

What we're debating here is what Brian could have done about it between 1965 and whatever year mental illness really crept in... 1968? 1972? 1973?

Some people seem to think that Brian Wilson crawled out of the womb a mentally damaged, drooling basket case. In 1965 he was prone to the odd anxiety attack but was otherwise fine on a day to day basis.

So that year (1965) he was smokin' dope, which probably didn't do anything to him.  Then again that year he did acid. He says himself that it "tore his head off" but who knows for certain, especially the long-term effects. Some internals think he had the depression thing going as early as 1963, but maybe it was much earlier than that. 1968 is when he seemed to take a dramatic turn for the worse and was even seeing doctors or hospitalized at that point. And who knows how long he's been schizo - I think that was exacerbated with Landy's excessive "prescriptions".

[Mikie]

Whenever this subject of songwriting credits comes up, it makes me think of whether Mike was telling the truth regarding his involvement with specific songs. Songs such as "Wouldn't It Be Nice", where Tony Asher questioned any Mike Love input and credit and said that Mike would have had to phone in some lyrics to it at the last minute (i.e. sleep tight baby, goodnight baby) shortly before the recording of it, because he (Tony) was a witness to all of it, even the recording session as I recall.

[Nicko1234]

Whenever this subject of songwriting credits comes up, it makes me think of whether Mike was telling the truth regarding his involvement with specific songs. Songs such as "Wouldn't It Be Nice", where Tony Asher questioned any Mike Love input and credit and said that Mike would have had to phone in some lyrics to it at the last minute (i.e. sleep tight baby, goodnight baby) shortly before the recording of it, because he (Tony) was a witness to all of it, even the recording session as I recall.

That's not what has been said.

[Mike's Beard]

If I remember reading correctly, Asher was asked if Brian could have been phoning up Mike for lyrical advice in between bathroom breaks. Yeah, that is a really dumb question. Mike's ab-lib for the end of WIBN doesn't warrant a songwriting credit IMO.

[Nicko1234]

I'm not saying Mike didn't get shafted here ... but he certainly tends to overstate his contribution in places. That said, he has a pretty good case for coming up with a lot of the most memorable hooks that allowed some of the songs to translate better to the masses, so the credit is likely due, even if his contribution were minimal. But things like the little tag part on 'Wouldn't It Be Nice' are no more integral than things like the musical riffs played by the wrecking crew guys (particularly things like the intro), which should really be considered 'arrangement'.

Obviously Mike is an arrogant guy but do we really have any evidence that Mike has actually tried to claim that he wrote specific lyrics which have been proven to be written by other people. Mike's lawyers argued in court that he might have phoned Brian when he was writing Wouldn't it be Nice (which is pretty ludicrous) but surely that was because Mike himself had only claimed that he wrote the 'Goodnight Baby, Sleep Tight Baby' closer.

Like everyone else, when I heard Mike stating in that BBC doc and elsewhere that he wrote the lyrics to Surfin USA I was deeply sceptical. But then Brian's 1974 interview emerged with him stating that Mike had written the song with him.

So while I don't believe everything that Mike says by any means, I also think there probably is a fair amount of truth in what he has said about the writing credits.

[Nicko1234]

If I remember reading correctly, Asher was asked if Brian could have been phoning up Mike for lyrical advice in between bathroom breaks. Yeah, that is a really dumb question. Mike's ab-lib for the end of WIBN doesn't warrant a songwriting credit IMO.

Yes, but in your previous post you mentioned the ad-lib at the end as being one of the things which Asher was asked about Mike could have phoned Brian about (which as it was apparently an ad-lib wasn't the case obviously).

[Mike's Beard]

If I remember reading correctly, Asher was asked if Brian could have been phoning up Mike for lyrical advice in between bathroom breaks. Yeah, that is a really dumb question. Mike's ab-lib for the end of WIBN doesn't warrant a songwriting credit IMO.

Yes, but in your previous post you mentioned the ad-lib at the end as being one of the things which Asher was asked about Mike could have phoned Brian about (which as it was apparently an ad-lib wasn't the case obviously).

That was Mikie's post. I'm Mike's Beard.

[Nicko1234]

That was Mikie's post. I'm Mike's Beard.

Taxi for Nicko.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

The funny thing is...this type of deal wouldn't happen today. These days arrangement suggestions are counted as 'writing', which is why most top 40 songs have five or more people credited.

[Wirestone]

I don't think anyone here hates Brian. Some people just think that having a butthole for a father is not enough to absolve him 100% for not crediting Mike on songs Mike wrote the bulk of lyrics for. Murry being abusive didn't stop Brian from quitting the road when he wanted to against Murry's wishes, or giving away top shelf material to Jan & Dean against Murry's wishes or firing his dad as the band's manager. Brian could certainly stand up to his father when he really wanted to.

As I said, not to worry. Whether what I read from some posters here is due to hatred towards Brian or an excess of love for lawsuits instead of music, is ultimately of no consequence. I am only a bit surprised at the amount of unrelenting flack Brian gets from guys who should, in theory, be big fans of his. Hey, who wrote all that music? Brian's rep as great artist in the world at large remains unsullied either way.

Are you sure you wouldn't be happier over at the Bloo?

That was such a hilarious comeback back in 2004. Good days, those.

Thanks for the history lesson but who asked you anything anyway buttinski?

I think it's your maturity level that adds the most to board discourse. Congratulations, sir.

[Wirestone]

Well, that new interview from Mike sums it all up, really. Fascinating stuff.

And it is funny to me -- and this is where I personally have always found the lawsuit opportunistic -- how you go from "I wrote California Girls" to "I wrote CG and I Get Around" to "I wrote a half-dozen songs that I talked to Brian about" to "Mike Love gets newly credited on 39 songs, out of a claimed 79."

It would only take ONE legal statement from Brian to forbid credit for Mike in many of those 39 songs.

"Oh, you know Brian's afraid of Mike, but we know the truth".

Yeah, Brian's so afraid of Mike that he avoided a reunion for 16 years and blameed Mike for the collapse of Smile in the official DVD. Brian really goes out of his way to avoid pissing off his cousin.

Avoiding a reunion for 16 years totally squares with Brian being scared of (or wanting to avoid) Mike. They're not different things at all. And Brian blaming Mike for the collapse of something has nothing to do with whether or not Brian's afraid of him on a face-to-face basis.

In general, my advice for writing posts is to make sure that the sentences follow logically from one to another and end up making some sort of point by the end. Just a friendly tip!

[Wirestone]

Goodness gracious ... debating Kokomaoists is like shooting fish in a barrel. Only not quite as sporting.

[Mike's Beard]

I think it's your maturity level that adds the most to board discourse. Congratulations, sir.

Thanks, I'm still trying to figure out what exactly you bring to the board that's of any worth. Apart from your monthly hissy fits - they're priceless.

[Cam Mott]

Let's say that back in the day Brian could fire Murry and Murry wrote letters about how he couldn't control Brian but for some reason Brian couldn't get the names correct on a form before he signed them.  Brian has admitted he knew Mike was being wronged/cheated. Why didn't Brian pay Mike the money he knew improperly went to him instead of to Mike out of his royalties?

[Dancing Bear]

Well, that new interview from Mike sums it all up, really. Fascinating stuff.

And it is funny to me -- and this is where I personally have always found the lawsuit opportunistic -- how you go from "I wrote California Girls" to "I wrote CG and I Get Around" to "I wrote a half-dozen songs that I talked to Brian about" to "Mike Love gets newly credited on 39 songs, out of a claimed 79."

It would only take ONE legal statement from Brian to forbid credit for Mike in many of those 39 songs.

"Oh, you know Brian's afraid of Mike, but we know the truth".

Yeah, Brian's so afraid of Mike that he avoided a reunion for 16 years and blameed Mike for the collapse of Smile in the official DVD. Brian really goes out of his way to avoid pissing off his cousin.

Avoiding a reunion for 16 years totally squares with Brian being scared of (or wanting to avoid) Mike. They're not different things at all. And Brian blaming Mike for the collapse of something has nothing to do with whether or not Brian's afraid of him on a face-to-face basis.

In general, my advice for writing posts is to make sure that the sentences follow logically from one to another and end up making some sort of point by the end. Just a friendly tip!

I get it, you believe that Brian never questioned Mike's new songwriting credits because he's afraid of Mike. Sometimes it's a bitch when someone anticipates your next answer while showing that's it's bullshit.   

[SMiLE Brian]

Thats what you believe dancing bear along with BBs being lucky to have "all american" Mike Love to keep the group from "druggie" musical explorations from BW.

[Dancing Bear]

Let's say that back in the day Brian could fire Murry and Murry wrote letters about how he couldn't control Brian but for some reason Brian couldn't get the names correct on a form before he signed them.  Brian has admitted he knew Mike was being wronged/cheated. Why didn't Brian pay Mike the money he knew improperly went to him instead of to Mike out of his royalties?

Now we know that Brian had "auditory delusions and mental illness [which] made him very afraid to speak up for himself" as early as 1965. That changes all our perceptions of Smile and its demise, doesn't it?

[DonnyL]

Let's say that back in the day Brian could fire Murry and Murry wrote letters about how he couldn't control Brian but for some reason Brian couldn't get the names correct on a form before he signed them.  Brian has admitted he knew Mike was being wronged/cheated. Why didn't Brian pay Mike the money he knew improperly went to him instead of to Mike out of his royalties?

I honestly doubt he was paying that much attention to the forms he signed (and I doubt Mike was either). A secretary probably handed him a stack of forms periodically, and he likely just signed away and went to dinner. In fact, this whole thing could be as simple as Murry defaulted to a 'Brian Wilson' credit unless someone specifically made it a point to tell him otherwise. And Brian was focused on the music, not the credits. Particularly if Mike was adding lyrics in the studio during the session ... maybe the paperwork was filed beforehand? Or maybe Brian or anyone else was not taking notes as to who wrote what while focusing on the arrangement and production.

[Cam Mott]

Let's say that back in the day Brian could fire Murry and Murry wrote letters about how he couldn't control Brian but for some reason Brian couldn't get the names correct on a form before he signed them.  Brian has admitted he knew Mike was being wronged/cheated. Why didn't Brian pay Mike the money he knew improperly went to him instead of to Mike out of his royalties?

Now we know that Brian had "auditory delusions and mental illness [which] made him very afraid to speak up for himself" as early as 1965. That changes all our perceptions of Smile and its demise, doesn't it?

When he fired his dad. Sure, you can hear him not speaking up for himself all over the SMiLE tapes.

[Dancing Bear]

Thats what you believe dancing bear along with BBs being lucky to have "all american" Mike Love to keep the group from "druggie" musical explorations from BW.

I'm too afraid to start wondering what YOU believe, sir. I'm not touching THAT with a ten foot pole.  

[Dancing Bear]

Let's say that back in the day Brian could fire Murry and Murry wrote letters about how he couldn't control Brian but for some reason Brian couldn't get the names correct on a form before he signed them.  Brian has admitted he knew Mike was being wronged/cheated. Why didn't Brian pay Mike the money he knew improperly went to him instead of to Mike out of his royalties?

I honestly doubt he was paying that much attention to the forms he signed (and I doubt Mike was either). A secretary probably handed him a stack of forms periodically, and he likely just signed away and went to dinner. In fact, this whole thing could be as simple as Murry defaulted to a 'Brian Wilson' credit unless someone specifically made it a point to tell him otherwise. And Brian was focused on the music, not the credits. Particularly if Mike was adding lyrics in the studio during the session ... maybe the paperwork was filed beforehand? Or maybe Brian or anyone else was not taking notes as to who wrote what while focusing on the arrangement and production.

Ok, let's look at it rationally. I doubt Brian did anything to steal money from Mike or to belittle him as a songwrinting partner. That's not Brian.

But then Mike states that he tried back in the day several times to have the situation corrected. For some reason Brian wouldn't be bothered. Now that's very Brian.

[Cam Mott]

Let's say that back in the day Brian could fire Murry and Murry wrote letters about how he couldn't control Brian but for some reason Brian couldn't get the names correct on a form before he signed them.  Brian has admitted he knew Mike was being wronged/cheated. Why didn't Brian pay Mike the money he knew improperly went to him instead of to Mike out of his royalties?

I honestly doubt he was paying that much attention to the forms he signed (and I doubt Mike was either). A secretary probably handed him a stack of forms periodically, and he likely just signed away and went to dinner. In fact, this whole thing could be as simple as Murry defaulted to a 'Brian Wilson' credit unless someone specifically made it a point to tell him otherwise. And Brian was focused on the music, not the credits. Particularly if Mike was adding lyrics in the studio during the session ... maybe the paperwork was filed beforehand? Or maybe Brian or anyone else was not taking notes as to who wrote what while focusing on the arrangement and production.

If somehow it happened 35 times that Brian managed to get himself credited but not his co-author, wouldn't it be an explanation but not an excuse. When it was pointed out to Brian, don't you think he had the responsibility to make it right?

[DonnyL]

Let's say that back in the day Brian could fire Murry and Murry wrote letters about how he couldn't control Brian but for some reason Brian couldn't get the names correct on a form before he signed them.  Brian has admitted he knew Mike was being wronged/cheated. Why didn't Brian pay Mike the money he knew improperly went to him instead of to Mike out of his royalties?

Now we know that Brian had "auditory delusions and mental illness [which] made him very afraid to speak up for himself" as early as 1965. That changes all our perceptions of Smile and its demise, doesn't it?

When he fired his dad. Sure, you can hear him not speaking up for himself all over the SMiLE tapes.

hey man, firing his dad was an emotional decision, just as retiring from the road was. These were made because he couldn't function in the situation ... running away from a problem rather than confronting it ("I don't want my dad managing me. I can't tour anymore.") This was not a business decision. Murry was arguably good for the business.

I've mentioned this before (and got shot down) with regard to Brian's Enneagram type. The only instance in which he would behave in an overtly assertive manner would be when he felt comfortable (the studio). He was certainly not comfortable confronting Murry or Mike in a non-musical situation. I think this distinction must be made here.

[SMiLE Brian]

Thats what you believe dancing bear along with BBs being lucky to have "all american" Mike Love to keep the group from "druggie" musical explorations from BW.

I'm too afraid to start wondering what YOU believe, sir. I'm not touching THAT with a ten foot pole. 

What is so scary about Brian Wilson is the main creative force behind the BBs?

That Mike Love rewrote history in the 1990s onwards, and you are living proof of that....

[Dancing Bear]

Thats what you believe dancing bear along with BBs being lucky to have "all american" Mike Love to keep the group from "druggie" musical explorations from BW.

I'm too afraid to start wondering what YOU believe, sir. I'm not touching THAT with a ten foot pole. 

What is so scary about Brian Wilson is the main creative force behind the BBs?

That Mike Love rewrote history in the 1990s onwards, and you are living proof of that....

Man, what's the fucking problem with you? I don't give a crap what your nationality, age, appearance, politics or religion are, much less how you see the Beach Boys' history. I barely know that you miss OSD because you manage to point that out twice a week.

But I see that my opinions make you angry. Well... We have two options: I can supress my opinions or you can seek treatment. I vote for number two.