New Mike interview in HuffPost

[Dancing Bear]

For what's worth, there was a tale years ago that Murry exchanged taking care of one of his nephew's 'troubles' for non-crediting him in Beach Boys tracks. Unwanted pregnancy, I suppose. There are only two problems regarding this theory:

a. that's not the path Mike chose when he was much younger and flat broke
b. Mike would certainly have the dough for that kind of procedure

Anyway, that was the legend decades ago.

That said, I guess if we're able to totally excuse Brian in this matter of not crediting Mike for California Girls alone, then we're able to excuse Mike for anything under the sun. Hooray, no more Mike bashing, finally.  

[Wirestone]

Well, that new interview from Mike sums it all up, really. Fascinating stuff.

And it is funny to me -- and this is where I personally have always found the lawsuit opportunistic -- how you go from "I wrote California Girls" to "I wrote CG and I Get Around" to "I wrote a half-dozen songs that I talked to Brian about" to "Mike Love gets newly credited on 39 songs, out of a claimed 79."

[leggo of my ego]

Ha ha Yes GF looks like once again Brian is telfon, nothing sticks so sad, too bad for them. 

[Dancing Bear]

Well, that new interview from Mike sums it all up, really. Fascinating stuff.

And it is funny to me -- and this is where I personally have always found the lawsuit opportunistic -- how you go from "I wrote California Girls" to "I wrote CG and I Get Around" to "I wrote a half-dozen songs that I talked to Brian about" to "Mike Love gets newly credited on 39 songs, out of a claimed 79."

It would only take ONE legal statement from Brian to forbid credit for Mike in many of those 39 songs.

"Oh, you know Brian's afraid of Mike, but we know the truth".

Yeah, Brian's so afraid of Mike that he avoided a reunion for 16 years and blameed Mike for the collapse of Smile in the official DVD. Brian really goes out of his way to avoid pissing off his cousin.

[filledeplage]

And with the interview excerpt from HeyJude's post, that's my cue to back out of this.

So much of all of the legal crap I waded through and tried to post in a comprehensive way was backed up if not validated in HeyJude's interview clipping. The conclusions I was banking on as being close to the heart of the situation and not just the case also came out in the interview.

Everything that I was challenged on, like those comments about the conservatorship "it's irrelevant!" "why bring THAT up?". to Murry's role and behavior, to Brian's intent versus Murry...to Brian's mental state "it's irrelevant!"

It's irrelevant, that's irrelevant, let's not bring that into the talk, he's irrelevant, let's change the parameters, why bring this up, this isn't the topic, 18 pages of this...etc. The attempts to correct things with even more faulty information perhaps took the cake. Glad I don't buy company lines that easily in 2013.  

Cam, Sheriff, Nicko...those still putting most blame on Brian, how does that line up with MIKE HIMSELF saying this:

I blame my uncle a lot more in the cheating of Mike Love because my cousin Brian was so shaky for so many years. He has auditory delusions and mental illness [which] made him very afraid to speak up for himself. He was very hard-pressed to protect my interests in our collaborative efforts, let alone his own.”

This was fun. Thank you for a rollicking discussion. I went back and learned more about the ins and outs of the lawsuit than I had ever known or read anywhere else. I found there were so many more layers to it beyond "Brian screwed over Mike" or "Mike's a jerk for suing Brian".

Keep believing that garbage if it's convenient. But it's simply not at the heart of what went on.

I wish I were able to sum up what Mike said in those few paragraphs in a better, more concise way, but I tend to overstate things, wanting to get all the information spot-on so the "fact-checkers" can't impugn what's been said by pointing out I didn't use a semi-colon, therefore my statements are void.  

Seriously, read Mike's own words and thoughts on the matter, and let's see it for what it is instead of with a personal bias or vendetta to prove who was a hero and who was a villain. It came down to going right to the source for his own words and thoughts. The fact that it lines up pretty damned close with what I've been trying to say for several pages feels good in a personal way, like a validation of something I just couldn't express to make a final point as neatly as the actual parties involved can do.

Thank you again, I'm back to regular programming for awhile if not a mini-hiatus.    Off the legal kick, but damn that was fun and educational. Which is the whole point of boards like this.

That bold print says it all.  It sounds mature, compassionate, fair and someone who sees the big picture, and who understands where the injustice came from.  Mike did not blame Brian.  

[leggo of my ego]

For what's worth, there was a tale years ago that Murry exchanged taking care of one of his nephew's 'troubles' for non-crediting him in Beach Boys tracks. Unwanted pregnancy, I suppose. There are only two problems regarding this theory:

a. that's not the path Mike chose when he was much younger and flat broke
b. Mike would certainly have the dough for that kind of procedure

Anyway, that was the legend decades ago.

That said, I guess if we're able to totally excuse Brian in this matter of not crediting Mike for California Girls alone, then we're able to excuse Mike for anything under the sun. Hooray, no more Mike bashing, finally.  

Then Mike has achieved something even the media can't do for Obama.  

[SMiLE Brian]

Ha ha Yes GF looks like once again Brian is telfon, nothing sticks so sad, too bad for them. 

Agreed, the kokomaoists are really going out of their way to smear Brian.

[RioGrande]

Not to worry, it takes more than the efforts of some haters here to smear Brian's reputation. In the world outside, almost everyone who knows anything of Brian respects and admires him.

[Mike's Beard]

I don't think anyone here hates Brian. Some people just think that having a butthole for a father is not enough to absolve him 100% for not crediting Mike on songs Mike wrote the bulk of lyrics for. Murry being abusive didn't stop Brian from quitting the road when he wanted to against Murry's wishes, or giving away top shelf material to Jan & Dean against Murry's wishes or firing his dad as the band's manager. Brian could certainly stand up to his father when he really wanted to.

[CenturyDeprived]

Who really cares when or why Mike noticed? The thing is, as a cowriter he deserved credit regardless of how one feels about him.

At what point does the piss-and-vinegar seen in the pages of Billboard come out as it's actually happening in real time, never mind 30 years later? Or as I asked about 5 pages ago, what stopped Mike from taking action at that time?

I just wonder if Mike feeling (rightfully) super slighted by the ongoing lack of ML credits situation (especially when Brian credits his younger bro Carl for Dance, Dance, Dance) is what helped lead to instances of ML's questionable behavior towards BW over the years. Mike had a right to feel slighted, but holding in that grudge didn't do anyone any favors.  Grudges always seep out in one way or another. Still, I can't help but still think that even if ML had gotten proper credits all along, BB history may have still otherwise played out similarly.

[Emdeeh]

All the Beach Boys were very angry at Brian in the early '90s due to Brian's autobiography being published. They all sued Brian for that book, including Carl and his mother Audree. I'm sure they put a lot of blame on Eugene, but they had to think Brian had some responsibility for that book getting published.

IIRC, BRI was the entity doing the suing vs. Brains and Genius, which means Brian sued himself. In any case, I'm pretty sure that the target of the pseudo-autobiography suit was Landy, and not Brian.

[RioGrande]

I don't think anyone here hates Brian. Some people just think that having a butthole for a father is not enough to absolve him 100% for not crediting Mike on songs Mike wrote the bulk of lyrics for. Murry being abusive didn't stop Brian from quitting the road when he wanted to against Murry's wishes, or giving away top shelf material to Jan & Dean against Murry's wishes or firing his dad as the band's manager. Brian could certainly stand up to his father when he really wanted to.

As I said, not to worry. Whether what I read from some posters here is due to hatred towards Brian or an excess of love for lawsuits instead of music, is ultimately of no consequence. I am only a bit surprised at the amount of unrelenting flack Brian gets from guys who should, in theory, be big fans of his. Hey, who wrote all that music? Brian's rep as great artist in the world at large remains unsullied either way.

[Cam Mott]

I guess I'll have to be the one who points this out: In the interview Mike still blames Brian, he only presumes his uncle was more at fault [not stating it as fact]. He also states as fact that he did bring it up to the publisher, Brian, several times. But I suppose that won't count either.

[HeyJude]

I guess I'll have to be the one who points this out: In the interview Mike still blames Brian, he only presumes his uncle was more at fault [not stating it as fact]. He also states as fact that he did bring it up to the publisher, Brian, several times. But I suppose that won't count either.

So now Mike's own assumptions and statements aren't good enough? Mike's interview speaks DIRECTLY to how he PERSONALLY feels as far as personal responsibility. He was all hot and bothered about it in 1992, while in 2004 places most of the blame on Murry and specifically appears to absolve Brian because basically Brian was too f-ed up and received bad legal advice while being f-ed up.

You're arguing a point that not even Mike Love himself argues. It's over dude.

[Steve Mayo]

my favorite brian quote from this period was when brian was asked what did he think about mike winning the suit and brian said....he didn't know much, one day he had $5 million in the bank and the next day he didn't.

[Mike's Beard]

I don't think anyone here hates Brian. Some people just think that having a butthole for a father is not enough to absolve him 100% for not crediting Mike on songs Mike wrote the bulk of lyrics for. Murry being abusive didn't stop Brian from quitting the road when he wanted to against Murry's wishes, or giving away top shelf material to Jan & Dean against Murry's wishes or firing his dad as the band's manager. Brian could certainly stand up to his father when he really wanted to.

As I said, not to worry. Whether what I read from some posters here is due to hatred towards Brian or an excess of love for lawsuits instead of music, is ultimately of no consequence. I am only a bit surprised at the amount of unrelenting flack Brian gets from guys who should, in theory, be big fans of his. Hey, who wrote all that music? Brian's rep as great artist in the world at large remains unsullied either way.

Are you sure you wouldn't be happier over at the Bloo?

[Wirestone]

I don't think anyone here hates Brian. Some people just think that having a butthole for a father is not enough to absolve him 100% for not crediting Mike on songs Mike wrote the bulk of lyrics for. Murry being abusive didn't stop Brian from quitting the road when he wanted to against Murry's wishes, or giving away top shelf material to Jan & Dean against Murry's wishes or firing his dad as the band's manager. Brian could certainly stand up to his father when he really wanted to.

As I said, not to worry. Whether what I read from some posters here is due to hatred towards Brian or an excess of love for lawsuits instead of music, is ultimately of no consequence. I am only a bit surprised at the amount of unrelenting flack Brian gets from guys who should, in theory, be big fans of his. Hey, who wrote all that music? Brian's rep as great artist in the world at large remains unsullied either way.

Are you sure you wouldn't be happier over at the Bloo?

That was such a hilarious comeback back in 2004. Good days, those.

[Dancing Bear]

places most of the blame on Murry and specifically appears to absolve Brian because basically Brian was too f-ed up and received bad legal advice while being f-ed up.

He says that about 1991-1992 Brian. Fair enough.

What we're debating here is what Brian could have done about it between 1965 and whatever year mental illness really crept in... 1968? 1972? 1973?

[Sheriff John Stone]

In the Mojo article, Mike blames Murry "a lot more" than Brian. Um, yeah, but that wasn't the argument. We already know about Murry's character; nobody's debating that. And, Brian has "mental illness" said Mike. Really? Wow, thanks for the news....According to Mike, Brian was "very afraid to speak up for himself". Now that is relevant. And THAT is the crux of the debate to me; I can't speak for anybody else.

This whole debate, the SPECIFIC debate, started by posters taking shots at Mike Love because of his answers given in a recent interview. Basically, Mike's character was called into question - again. As a counter point, another poster then listed a number of questionable behaviors attributed to Brian Wilson, or Brian's character, which was followed by another poster specifically mentioning Brian's non-action in the songwriting credits/royalties owed to Mike Love.

My focus and posts were specifically directed at Brian's (non)behavior and (non)actions in addressing the injustices toward Mike from roughly the initial actions (1965) until the lawsuits started flying (roughly 1989). The facts appear to be - unless somebody has information that hasn't been presented - that, despite Brian Wilson's "mental condition", he had numerous/several/unlimited(?) moments of lucidity from 1965 to 1989 where could've done the right thing, the appropriate thing, the brave thing, and the promised thing. And he didn't.

Despite being sensitive to Brian's condition(s), to me, that tells me something about a person's character. I don't hate that person, I'm not name-calling, and despite what you might think, I'm not biased toward Mike Love. I'm stating an opinion based on what I've read. And the reason I'm doing that? Because of the overwhelming hypocrisy displayed by numerous posters in disparaging Mike Love and turning the other way when it comes to Brian Wilson. I sometimes feel pathetic that I reduce myself to doing that. So, now I'm going back to my CD's and honoring Lewis Allan Reed. It's such a perfect day, I'm glad I spent it with you....

[ontor pertawst]

While you're at it, do the ostrich!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r998weOUiM
 

[Mike's Beard]

I don't think anyone here hates Brian. Some people just think that having a butthole for a father is not enough to absolve him 100% for not crediting Mike on songs Mike wrote the bulk of lyrics for. Murry being abusive didn't stop Brian from quitting the road when he wanted to against Murry's wishes, or giving away top shelf material to Jan & Dean against Murry's wishes or firing his dad as the band's manager. Brian could certainly stand up to his father when he really wanted to.

As I said, not to worry. Whether what I read from some posters here is due to hatred towards Brian or an excess of love for lawsuits instead of music, is ultimately of no consequence. I am only a bit surprised at the amount of unrelenting flack Brian gets from guys who should, in theory, be big fans of his. Hey, who wrote all that music? Brian's rep as great artist in the world at large remains unsullied either way.

Are you sure you wouldn't be happier over at the Bloo?

That was such a hilarious comeback back in 2004. Good days, those.

Thanks for the history lesson but who asked you anything anyway buttinski?

[Nicko1234]

Cam, Sheriff, Nicko...those still putting most blame on Brian, how does that line up with MIKE HIMSELF saying this:

Not me. I haven't said Brian was to blame at all for any of it.

[DonnyL]

In the Mojo article, Mike blames Murry "a lot more" than Brian. Um, yeah, but that wasn't the argument. We already know about Murry's character; nobody's debating that. And, Brian has "mental illness" said Mike. Really? Wow, thanks for the news....According to Mike, Brian was "very afraid to speak up for himself". Now that is relevant. And THAT is the crux of the debate to me; I can't speak for anybody else.

This whole debate, the SPECIFIC debate, started by posters taking shots at Mike Love because of his answers given in a recent interview. Basically, Mike's character was called into question - again. As a counter point, another poster then listed a number of questionable behaviors attributed to Brian Wilson, or Brian's character, which was followed by another poster specifically mentioning Brian's non-action in the songwriting credits/royalties owed to Mike Love.

My focus and posts were specifically directed at Brian's (non)behavior and (non)actions in addressing the injustices toward Mike from roughly the initial actions (1965) until the lawsuits started flying (roughly 1989). The facts appear to be - unless somebody has information that hasn't been presented - that, despite Brian Wilson's "mental condition", he had numerous/several/unlimited(?) moments of lucidity from 1965 to 1989 where could've done the right thing, the appropriate thing, the brave thing, and the promised thing. And he didn't.

Despite being sensitive to Brian's condition(s), to me, that tells me something about a person's character. I don't hate that person, I'm not name-calling, and despite what you might think, I'm not biased toward Mike Love. I'm stating an opinion based on what I've read. And the reason I'm doing that? Because of the overwhelming hypocrisy displayed by numerous posters in disparaging Mike Love and turning the other way when it comes to Brian Wilson. I sometimes feel pathetic that I reduce myself to doing that. So, now I'm going back to my CD's and honoring Lewis Allan Reed. It's such a perfect day, I'm glad I spent it with you....

When things like getting up in the morning, brushing your teeth, eating lunch, going to sleep at night, and understanding that you are a living person are challenges ... a person cannot be expected to rectify a legal problem. 'Moments of lucidity' do not equal taking action to restore your cousin's name on an old writing credit in my opinion. My dad is schizophrenic, and seems perfectly normal in some conversations, then there are things like him not understanding how we can be watching footage of Jim Morrsion on TV ... ("wait ... Jim Morrison is DEAD! How are we watching this ?!?")

And who knows, maybe Brian felt that Mike wasn't legitimately entitled to a credit on some of those tunes. Seriously, 'good night baby / sleep tight baby' is an arrangement decision, added after the fact. Perhaps Brian originally only felt the need to give a co-writing credit when Mike was present for the genesis of the song, like 'Fun Fun Fun', 'Warmth of the Sun', etc. ... 'Calif. Girls' being the notable exception ... the one where Brian acknowledged the credit was incorrect.

"Hey guys, here's this new song I wrote ... I Get Around ... it goes:

I Get Around / From town to town / I'm a real cool head / I'm making real good bread

I'm getting mad going up and down the same old street / I gotta find a new place where the girls are sweet ..."

"Hey Brian, why don't you change 'mad' to 'bugged'? lemme see that lyric sheet for a minute. How bout 'round round get around?'"

"I've got this guitar part here, why don't we change this riff here?"

"okay, Carl"

and on and on and on.

"Hey Brian, who wrote 'I Get Around'?"

"I did, dad."

...

I'm not saying Mike didn't get shafted here ... but he certainly tends to overstate his contribution in places. That said, he has a pretty good case for coming up with a lot of the most memorable hooks that allowed some of the songs to translate better to the masses, so the credit is likely due, even if his contribution were minimal. But things like the little tag part on 'Wouldn't It Be Nice' are no more integral than things like the musical riffs played by the wrecking crew guys (particularly things like the intro), which should really be considered 'arrangement'.

[Mike's Beard]

places most of the blame on Murry and specifically appears to absolve Brian because basically Brian was too f-ed up and received bad legal advice while being f-ed up.

He says that about 1991-1992 Brian. Fair enough.

What we're debating here is what Brian could have done about it between 1965 and whatever year mental illness really crept in... 1968? 1972? 1973?

Some people seem to think that Brian Wilson crawled out of the womb a mentally damaged, drooling basket case. In 1965 he was prone to the odd anxiety attack but was otherwise fine on a day to day basis.
I guess timing is everything. Maybe Brian meant to get Mike added to the California Girls credits when confronted but then, the band put in a lawsuit against their own record company, then Brian's dad sold the publishing rights from under his nose, then the band had to scrabble to find a new record deal, then Brian really succumbed to drugs, then Brian was placed under 24 hour care to get well, which was a massive drain on everyone's finances, then the band nearly broke up...... you get the picture. I think at some point chasing up a few writing credits for Mike became low priority for everyone including Mike.  

[Mike's Beard]

deleted for repeating myself.