Did Brian ruin Heroes and Villains by adding the "Bicycle Rider" chorus?

[Jukka]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but hey, what isn't?

Anyway, what do you think? I had a proper Heroes and Villains listening marathon just recently, and I noticed that he got it right in the early 1967. The cantina version that's on Smiley Smile, or part one... That's it right there. A compact musical cartoon, with not a a dull second included. Sure, it didn't have a catchy chorus, but it didn't really need one. The bicycle rider chorus just kills the track's momentum. The moment he decided to add it the song lost its original idea.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

No. The finished single is just sublime. The cantina version is a work in progress. I love it, I love all H&V sessions, but the single is perfect, we're lucky to have it.

[Please delete my account]

I wouldn't say "ruin", but I do like it better without. Never too fond of that part of the song. On the album reconstructions it is annoying having two songs back-to-back with the same chorus, too.

[Nile]

I agree that it kind of ruins the momentum.. I personally like the cantina version with some minor changes...
Dont need to point out that I think that Chorus is a great piece of work, both vocally and instrumentally..that wouldn`t exist in January 67 Smile album!:)
I myself in my Smile mixes put it somewhere, apart from HV, in the end..maybe just a snipett in the end, after the Surfs up finishes..you know Surfs up...silence..HV chosrus snippet.. gone, slience... Think that it kinda closes the album in a nice way..

[Micha]

My favorite own version of H&V has the instrumental chorus after "You're under arrest!". Works great, actually takes up momentum instead of destroying it. It wasn't a good idea to add the bizarre vocals and organ drone and leave the bass and most of the percussion out. That's what ruins the momentum.

In case you're interested: http://www.michael-fredrich.de/HeroesAndVillainsMicha.mp3

(pre-TSS.) Tell me what you think.

[ash]

I don't think ruin is the right word but Brian clearly had trouble deciding what should happen after the first two verses given the amount of part 2's and other sections that followed .  Also the transition from the end of verse 2 to whatever part 2 would be was a problem.
I would still love to hear the v1/v2/great shape/my children/3 score/barnyard? version (if that is indeed what was intended in October 1966). Those Durrie Parks acetates auctioned earlier this year must be heard as they apparently contained a Great Shape/My Children edit. That's a feature piece of the jigsaw.
I never felt the Cantina version was THE one but close. Funnily enough i was always underwhelmed by it but a few years back it came on in my local pub and sounded amazing. I was on my first pint so it wasn't the alcohol !
Apart from the momentum somehow being lost with the Bicycle Rider insert for Heroes it also left Do You Like Worms in trouble.
If anyone has a line to Al we should persuade him to get BW to play the Great Shape Heroes and sort out that original melody for Worms and play them on tour. I bet Al could sing the heck out of those two. That'd be 2 key parts of Smile essentially sorted. Then we could get on with arguing about The Elements and the Child Is Father lead vocal.
BTW I'm also intrigued as to how the part 3 from December on the Smile box fits in or joins on and to what. It's in E and seemingly lost in the mystery that is Heroes and Villains.

[Cabinessenceking]

Tbh, I think the 'cantina section' is the boring part. I agree the chorus could be considered tedious, but if he shortened it there would be no problem, but because he goes 2x D#m G#m it loses it's momentum. Which is why I mixed out of my mix!

[Gabo]

The main problem of the Smile sessions was that Brian wasn't writing finished songs. I think the song would have been better if he actually wrote a chorus that logically followed the melody of the verse.

I do love the Smiley Smile Heroes and Villains, though. I agree that it's the best version of the song.

[ash]

I disagree. I think for the most part the songs as compositions were essentially finished. It was during the recording process that BW went back re-recording sections/replacing sections. I believe that in almost every case at the beginning of sessions for heroes/worms/cabin/child/wonderful/wind chimes/surfs up/master painter-sunshine/vegatables/look/holidays BW could have sat down and played through the whole tune for the assembled musicians. Maybe the words weren't completely finalised but i think they were at the very least mostly there.
The Heroes version played for Humble Harv shows there was (at least initially) a clear plan.
I wish there were some composing demos knocking around.

[Phoenix]

He didn't ruin it.  He finished it!  Without it, the song had NO chorus.  Even as far out as "Good Vibrations" was at the time, it wouldn't have went to #1 without having a good hook in the refrain.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

In answer to the question... No.

[Rotat]

I always preferred the Smiley version by far. It finishes the song nicely, the vocals are incredible and the bicycle rider part I always thought was a perfect chorus. I don't see how that could stifle the songs momentum at all. On the original versions, sections changed randomly into each other and didn't have much of a flow to begin with! So how could the single version ruin the songs momentum when it didn't have a straight momentum to begin with? I love the Smile versions with the different sections. I love how Smile in general is modular and changes from section to section randomly, even if it sounded unexpected and out of left field. There's no way that the public would get that Cantina version of H&V and it wouldn't have topped the charts as far as I'm concerned. Just look at the charts in '66 and '67. There were still lots of catchy pop songs high on the charts. GV was still a catchy pop song through & through ( even though the production was beyond what most other artists were doing).

I personally think it says a lot how well H&V did on the charts after SMile was abandoned. It didn't hit top 10 but it still hit top 20, not too shabby. I doubt any other version that was done for Smile would have done as well as GV as a single. Vegetables however I think would of had potential.

[SonicVolcano]

I'm not a big fan of the studio version, any studio version. Mostly because of the muddy mix.

Give me the In Concert version instead.

[DonnyL]

The final Smiley version is the only one that sounds like a record to me. I remember hearing it on the radio when I was about 12 or 13 and really loving it. Let's not forget it WAS a hit. Bigger hit than 'Do It Again' or 'Darlin', and their biggest until 'Rock and Roll Music'.

[bonnevillemariner]

I'm not a big fan of the studio version, any studio version. Mostly because of the muddy mix.

Here Here!  I can't take the mix.  All those beautiful sessions and intricate instrumentation-- and we get that horrible mix.  I've asked the question here a few times before but can never get a good answer: how did that mix result from those sessions?  Was it just a matter of recording a recording of a recording?  How could anybody not notice how muddy the finished product sounded.  Or did they?  Whenever I bring it up, nobody echoes my complaint.

My favorite H&V version is the one I made myself using the BWPS instrumental version with fly-in vocals from the sessions and other released versions.

[Freddie French-Pounce]

The final Smiley version is the only one that sounds like a record to me. I remember hearing it on the radio when I was about 12 or 13 and really loving it. Let's not forget it WAS a hit. Bigger hit than 'Do It Again' or 'Darlin', and their biggest until 'Rock and Roll Music'.

I always read things like that and get briefly confused, being used to Do it Again being a Number 1 hit here.

God I see that thing EVERYWHERE. And Barbara Ann. Every single flippin' singles box.

[soniclovenoize]

For some reason I went my whole life without every hearing the Smiley Smile version of H&V.  So my very first exposure to any incarnation of the song was the Cantina mix on a friend's SMiLE mix sometime in 2001.  I was astounded and dumbfounded!  It was one of the most amazing songs I'd ever heard! 

So when I eventually heard the Smiley Smile version of H&V I was really let down, because I felt that chorus belonged in Do You Like Worms, not H&V, and then the overall flow of the song seemed more disjointed, as compared to the Cantina version which I felt was more cohesive, even without an actual chorus.  I also thought the vocal performances was flimsy and too whimsical (as compared to the "strong" vocals of the Cantina version) and the vocals were incredibly dry and didn't seem to match the beauty of the backing tracks (thanks to home-studio recording).

So yeah, I felt it was ruined, but not just by the chorus.  But of course that's because my first exposure of it was the Cantina version. 

[Jukka]

Been listening to both versions now... If your goal is to make a "three-minute musical comedy", you go with the cantina version. If your goal is to make a hit single you go with the Smiley version.

[RangeRoverA1]

He didn't ruin it.  He finished it!  Without it, the song had NO chorus.  Even as far out as "Good Vibrations" was at the time, it wouldn't have went to #1 without having a good hook in the refrain.

I agree with everything you said, Phoenix! The song would've been monotonous without the "Bicycle Rider" segment. There where we hear grains of creativity that Brian had in mind - it's a vocal masterwork! One of the finest examples of the BBs' harmonizing. I like the verses a little bit more, though.

GV without Mike's famous hook=No.2 at most. And that'd be quite disappointing (esp. to Brian), taking into account how long they were recording it & how much money it cost them in total. At different studios, mind you also.

[Les P]

If your goal is to make a "three-minute musical comedy", you go with the cantina version. If your goal is to make a hit single you go with the Smiley version.

Agree.  A version w/o Bicycle Rider might have worked for his early conception of a series of movements along with IIGS, Barnyard, etc, but only as an ambitious album track, not a single.

[JK]

No.

[Gabo]

I disagree. I think for the most part the songs as compositions were essentially finished. It was during the recording process that BW went back re-recording sections/replacing sections. I believe that in almost every case at the beginning of sessions for heroes/worms/cabin/child/wonderful/wind chimes/surfs up/master painter-sunshine/vegatables/look/holidays BW could have sat down and played through the whole tune for the assembled musicians. Maybe the words weren't completely finalised but i think they were at the very least mostly there.
The Heroes version played for Humble Harv shows there was (at least initially) a clear plan.
I wish there were some composing demos knocking around.

Do you really think that "Barnyard" and "I'm In Great Shape" are a part of the song "Heroes and Villains?" They are completely individual songs, albeit part of the original conception of the "Heroes and Villains" suite, but completely individual compositions, no matter how short they are.

[Smilin Ed H]

Yep.  And Gershwin should never have used woodwinds on Rhapsody in Blue.

[Jukka]

Yep.  And Gershwin should never have used woodwinds on Rhapsody in Blue.

Word. Some people just never get it right!

[Smilin Ed H]

Word?  Word!  Brother... Or is that bro'? I was agreeing with you.  Never mind...