Did Brian ruin Heroes and Villains by adding the "Bicycle Rider" chorus?

[Ron]

Here Here!  I can't take the mix.  All those beautiful sessions and intricate instrumentation-- and we get that horrible mix.  I've asked the question here a few times before but can never get a good answer: how did that mix result from those sessions?  Was it just a matter of recording a recording of a recording?  How could anybody not notice how muddy the finished product sounded.  Or did they?  Whenever I bring it up, nobody echoes my complaint.

Maybe Brian was never concerned about overall sound quality in general? (shrug)
After all, even with one good ear he HAD to have noticed the intrusive bass notes that are present on PS's "I'm Waiting For the Day" that sounds like he used a tape that wasn't properly erased.

....and the chatter in Here Today and other songs, various coughs, clunky edits, and the list goes on.  You've got to wonder why Brian would take so much care in detail with writing, arranging, recording, etc. only to let weird anomalies like this slide in the mixing/mastering process.

I think the only argument you can make is that he thought they were 'natural'.  Happy accidents, as Bob Ross used to say.  

Another thing about Brian, he often had people sing apparently two different lines at the same time.  So like in "Car Club"... half the guys appear to be saying "Car Club... Car Club" and the other half are going "Start Up... Car Club".  It screws with each other and kind of muddies the sound, makes it unclear... some would consider that a mistake, but either somebody messed up and he left it, or he instructed them to sing like that.  

He also has publicly stated that he recorded stuff with no concern over whether you'd be able to hear it in the mix.  I.E., he'd record the instruments, then record the vocals over it and it'd often drown out all kinds of stuff that was going on in the instrumental.  You can't really hear what's going on at the bottom of "Kiss me Baby" unless you KNOW what Mike's singing... and even now, I can't hear what they're saying in the background of "Shelter" towards the end. 

I think he felt that it was all natural, or subliminal, or whatever and still added to the song even if it was a mistake, or just noise, or lyrics you couldn't hear, or whatever. 

"Happy Accidents"

[bonnevillemariner]

Well, I personally don't consider the muddy mix of H&V to be a "happy accident" at all.  I've never heard this track on vinyl but I can't imagine it sounds ok.  One of my favorite bb tracks and the thing sounds like crap!

[DonnyL]

Here Here!  I can't take the mix.  All those beautiful sessions and intricate instrumentation-- and we get that horrible mix.  I've asked the question here a few times before but can never get a good answer: how did that mix result from those sessions?  Was it just a matter of recording a recording of a recording?  How could anybody not notice how muddy the finished product sounded.  Or did they?  Whenever I bring it up, nobody echoes my complaint.

Maybe Brian was never concerned about overall sound quality in general? (shrug)
After all, even with one good ear he HAD to have noticed the intrusive bass notes that are present on PS's "I'm Waiting For the Day" that sounds like he used a tape that wasn't properly erased.

....and the chatter in Here Today and other songs, various coughs, clunky edits, and the list goes on.  You've got to wonder why Brian would take so much care in detail with writing, arranging, recording, etc. only to let weird anomalies like this slide in the mixing/mastering process.

I think the only argument you can make is that he thought they were 'natural'.  Happy accidents, as Bob Ross used to say.  

Another thing about Brian, he often had people sing apparently two different lines at the same time.  So like in "Car Club"... half the guys appear to be saying "Car Club... Car Club" and the other half are going "Start Up... Car Club".  It screws with each other and kind of muddies the sound, makes it unclear... some would consider that a mistake, but either somebody messed up and he left it, or he instructed them to sing like that.  

He also has publicly stated that he recorded stuff with no concern over whether you'd be able to hear it in the mix.  I.E., he'd record the instruments, then record the vocals over it and it'd often drown out all kinds of stuff that was going on in the instrumental.  You can't really hear what's going on at the bottom of "Kiss me Baby" unless you KNOW what Mike's singing... and even now, I can't hear what they're saying in the background of "Shelter" towards the end.  

I think he felt that it was all natural, or subliminal, or whatever and still added to the song even if it was a mistake, or just noise, or lyrics you couldn't hear, or whatever.  

"Happy Accidents"

This was a Spector thing too. There's a famous story out there somewhere of an engineer telling another engineer that he had seen Spector work, and knew the 'secret' to get the wall of sound, but he'd never believe him. So they make some kind of bet, and the first guy goes to the studio with the second guy to show him how to do it. Time was booked, musicians hired, etc.

So they start setting up and the guy starts setting up musicians all over the place, some of which are not even miked up. Engineer #2 starts freaking out ('is this a joke!?! I'm not gonna pay a guy who's not even being recorded!' etc.), and the session is cancelled.

I wish I could find this story online because I'm paraphrasing !!! probably just lore in any case, but I'd believe it.

These things do matter ... I mean the blending, etc. You throw in enough subtle things, it adds up to a whole that cannot be easily reproduced.

Well, I personally don't consider the muddy mix of H&V to be a "happy accident" at all.  I've never heard this track on vinyl but I can't imagine it sounds ok.  One of my favorite bb tracks and the thing sounds like crap!

The sound of this mono mix is one of the reasons I love the Beach Boys so much. Find anything, anywhere that has the sonic texture of this track. totally weird. like cartoon music. closest is Ike & Tina's "Save the Last Dance for Me", but even that sounds more 'REAL'. Something so beautifully plastic and artificial about the 'H&V' 45 mix.

[guitarfool2002]

I agree with Donny - it comes down to the artistic and aesthetic choices Brian made for how this record was going to sound. In this case, he was walking the same path as Phil Spector and the "Wall", where definition of individual instruments was not as important to the textures he wanted for the song as the overall effect of a blast of sound hitting you through one (often small) speaker.

With these issues, I think to understand what went on in the decision-making process behind a record like "Heroes", you need to compare and contrast it to other recordings from the time. In this case, there is one specific recording that really dramatizes the difference in intent and the way the process was different based on that final goal for the record.

"All Or Nothing At All", by Frank Sinatra, arranged by Nelson Riddle, recorded in LA between April-May 1966 and using some of the exact same equipment and technology, and in some cases the same musicians (at least on the Strangers In The Night album where this song can be found) as Brian was using for his 1966 recordings, at least the tracks he was cutting at Western. Remember, they were using the same technology and equipment, though Frank usually recorded in larger rooms at Bill Putnam's United/Western facilities.

Listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfeBAo-08c0

Nelson Riddle sounds like he's trying to out-Riddle himself, as he had great acclaim and success with a similar bombastic arrangement for Frank on "I've Got You Under My Skin"...popular enough that when Sinatra played his Vegas live shows, he'd often yell "run for cover!!!" just before Quincy Jones led the Basie band into sheets of exploding sound during the arranger's chorus of the song.

When you listen to "All Or Nothing At All", pay specific attention to the arranger's chorus from 2:08 to 3:06. It's probably one of the most bombastic and over-the-top shout choruses Nelson ever wrote, just pure explosions of brass, organ, bass, etc. Yet during that shout chorus, you can hear almost *everything* that's playing in the band. Everything from acoustic piano, to acoustic bass, to Hammond organ, to nearly every woodwind and brass instrument so you can even hear the specific notes of the bari sax in those thick chords.

Incredible. One of my favorite sections of music, ever, period.

And again, the fact that you can hear so much definition in every section of instruments, from rhythm to winds to brass to strings to Frank's voice, is what kills you every time.

Consider what Brian was doing in going for the Spector sound - again, same technology, same gear, same studio facilities in some cases - That definition was entirely possible as demonstrated by Sinatra-Riddle using a studio band I'd estimate almost twice the size of Brian and Spectors' groups when you factor in a full big band with strings. But that's not what Brian was going for, nor was Spector. It was a different texture, a different mindset going into those recordings that created the "Wall Of Sound" versus what Riddle and Sinatra were doing at the same time.

Your ears are the ultimate judge of that.  

[Crow]

What order do you think H&V would have gone in had Brian left in Great Shape and barnyard? (I always felt they WERE part of the song and were very weak alone - which is why I never put them on my Smile mixes)

[Bean Bag]

The work in progress "Cantina Mix" to me feels like a complete HV Part I, meant to be followed (at some point) on the album by a Part II.  And  the Smiley Smile single version that Brian eventually did complete would have made the more succinct single version -- although, it wouldn't have sounded so dull, muddy and slap-dash -- had it remained in the SMiLE vernacular.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

The work in progress "Cantina Mix" to me feels like a complete HV Part I, meant to be followed (at some point) on the album by a Part II.  And  the Smiley Smile single version that Brian eventually did complete would have made the more succinct single version -- although, it wouldn't have sounded so dull, muddy and slap-dash -- had it remained in the SMiLE vernacular.

I don't get what any of you are talking about... Heroes & Villains on Smiley is tremendous and sounds great to me! What's this muddiness you all keep referring too? And dull? It's one of their greatest ever songs and this [Smiley] is the best version.

[bonnevillemariner]

The work in progress "Cantina Mix" to me feels like a complete HV Part I, meant to be followed (at some point) on the album by a Part II.  And  the Smiley Smile single version that Brian eventually did complete would have made the more succinct single version -- although, it wouldn't have sounded so dull, muddy and slap-dash -- had it remained in the SMiLE vernacular.

I don't get what any of you are talking about... Heroes & Villains on Smiley is tremendous and sounds great to me! What's this muddiness you all keep referring too? And dull? It's one of their greatest ever songs and this [Smiley] is the best version.

Listen to any of the Heroes sessions on TSS, then listen to the finished song.  There's no way you can tell me it ain't muddy.  The sessions have such definition, clarity, and depth.  The finished track is flat, mashed together, inordinately unclear.  It sounds like you're listening to a recording of a recording of a recording.  It's awful.

Great insight, by the way, guitarfool.  Thanks!

[Micha]

The work in progress "Cantina Mix" to me feels like a complete HV Part I, meant to be followed (at some point) on the album by a Part II.

That's interesting. To me it feels that if there ever was a track called "H&V part 2" it would have been a single B-side non-album track. Not saying you shouldn't feel the way you do, just that I feel differently.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

There's no way you can tell me it ain't muddy. 

As the position of your speakers, the quality of your equiptment and, most importantly the range of your ears make it an extremely subjective thing, there's no way you can tell me it is muddy.

You can't listen to unmixed session tapes and compare it to the finished article. It wasn't supposed to be heard like that. These things were mastered for mono car speakers. These clear as a bell new mixes are an attempt to shoehorn these recordings into a modern dynamic.

I'm no purist, but to me, the stereo Smiley Smile sounds sterile and lifeless. There were no moments when I heard any details that I had not heard previously, as some have claimed, but we all have different ears. The original mono mix though, this muddy album that folk keep referring to,has a powerful and overwhelming sound. I hear no mud

[buddhahat]

I hear no mud

I think the other guy meant this record:

[Iron Horse-Apples]

That's neat.

[bonnevillemariner]

You can't listen to unmixed session tapes and compare it to the finished article. It wasn't supposed to be heard like that. These things were mastered for mono car speakers. These clear as a bell new mixes are an attempt to shoehorn these recordings into a modern dynamic.

I don't happen to have any mono car speakers, so I guess I'm screwed!

I get what you're saying, but I have a hard time believing I'm alone in disliking the finished mix, and I reject the notion that one must have his speakers set just right, the right quality equipment, etc., in order to truly appreciate a piece of music.  I realize you're not necessarily pushing that notion here, but it drives me nuts.  Can we really rule out the possibility that the final mix of Heroes sounds the way it does not because of a meticulous calculation by Brian to target a single specific medium, but because the mixing technology of the day simply didn't allow the quality of the session recordings to be retained to the end of the process?

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Can we really rule out the possibility that the final mix of Heroes sounds the way it does not because of a meticulous calculation by Brian to target a single specific medium, but because the mixing technology of the day simply didn't allow the quality of the session recordings to be retained to the end of the process?

I think that's true, yes. Even nowadays things end up screwed at the mastering stage (not that I'm saying H&V is screwed   )

[DonnyL]

You can't listen to unmixed session tapes and compare it to the finished article. It wasn't supposed to be heard like that. These things were mastered for mono car speakers. These clear as a bell new mixes are an attempt to shoehorn these recordings into a modern dynamic.

I don't happen to have any mono car speakers, so I guess I'm screwed!

I get what you're saying, but I have a hard time believing I'm alone in disliking the finished mix, and I reject the notion that one must have his speakers set just right, the right quality equipment, etc., in order to truly appreciate a piece of music.  I realize you're not necessarily pushing that notion here, but it drives me nuts.  Can we really rule out the possibility that the final mix of Heroes sounds the way it does not because of a meticulous calculation by Brian to target a single specific medium, but because the mixing technology of the day simply didn't allow the quality of the session recordings to be retained to the end of the process?

A good mix should translate well across mediums and systems, and I think 'H&V' does. However, it may sound more ideal (or closer to the original vision) in certain environments.

Lots of people think 'H&V' is murky/muddy/lo-fi/etc. But I don't think this is a result of the limitations of the technology of the day. In fact, I think the technology of 1967 was capable of a higher-quality recording than what most are made with today. I also don't think it's lo-fi at all if you really listen to it. A big part of the 'murk' is the way the bass instruments are mixed.

I'd say the primary sonic texture on the 45/Smiley mix of 'H&V' is due to:

1. Brian's creative decisions
2. Brian's workflow decisions
3. the engineers
4. the equipment

[Jukka]

What do you make of Al Jardine's comments that Brian "purposefully underproduced" the Heroes and Villains single?

[DonnyL]

What do you make of Al Jardine's comments that Brian "purposefully underproduced" the Heroes and Villains single?

The single release came as a transition from 'Good Vibes' to Smiley (closer to Smiley). So Brian was probably on his way to the home studio/Smiley scene, and started making decisions toward that kind of vibe. I mean, yeh, he dropped out of the production race right there.

[DonnyL]

I think that's true, yes. Even nowadays things end up screwed at the mastering stage (not that I'm saying H&V is screwed   )

'Mastering' as we know it today did not really exist on '60s records. The standard in the '60s was to make your mix sound how you want the finished product to sound.  Mastering was making sonic compromises to ensure a good cut to vinyl. I'm sure plenty of records were cut right from the 1/4" master, or a direct dub of it. Later, 'EQ'd Masters' (as they were often called) were made on a separate tape, factoring in the vinyl limitations and massaging individual songs into a more cohesive whole.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Off topic, but it leads on from what you're saying Donny. Judging by the description (can't remember from who) of Brian giving instructions to on the fly to the guy who prepared the Pet Sounds master, as it was cut on the lathe, a lot of it was dynamic instructions, i.e, bring it up here, down here. And you can hear those level changes on the original mix, particularly in tracks like I Just Wasn't Made For These Times.

Another earlier example of these dynamic changes which in this case I think were planned for during tracking is Do You Wanna Dance. Because it starts off so soft, the power when the chorus comes in is really intense. This is really lacking in the new stereo mix, you can hear the modern compression coming in on the chorus to compensate for the level changes. So Brian's original vision in this case, has gone.

My favourite CD version of the Today album is the Past Masters. Not for any purist reason, just because it sounds so good.Brian knew what he was doing. Pet Sounds seems to work better in stereo than Today. Today is a masterclass in mono mixing. The stereo mixes leave me cold.

And was it on this board that I read that modern compression techniques leave music with the same dynamic range as an Edison cylinder?

[DonnyL]

Off topic, but it leads on from what you're saying Donny. Judging by the description (can't remember from who) of Brian giving instructions to on the fly to the guy who prepared the Pet Sounds master, as it was cut on the lathe, a lot of it was dynamic instructions, i.e, bring it up here, down here. And you can hear those level changes on the original mix, particularly in tracks like I Just Wasn't Made For These Times.

Another earlier example of these dynamic changes which in this case I think were planned for during tracking is Do You Wanna Dance. Because it starts off so soft, the power when the chorus comes in is really intense. This is really lacking in the new stereo mix, you can hear the modern compression coming in on the chorus to compensate for the level changes. So Brian's original vision in this case, has gone.

My favourite CD version of the Today album is the Past Masters. Not for any purist reason, just because it sounds so good.Brian knew what he was doing. Pet Sounds seems to work better in stereo than Today. Today is a masterclass in mono mixing. The stereo mixes leave me cold.

And was it on this board that I read that modern compression techniques leave music with the same dynamic range as an Edison cylinder?

I'm not sure what's been going on with recent masters, but the digital processing is out of control. I don't have a problem with compression or limiting, but the digital stuff just doesn't seem to sound good on the end result. For instance, lots of '60s stuff was seriously over-compressed and limited to hell (lots of Beatles stuff ... and the Monkees' Pisces, Aquarius ... album [even Nesmith mentioned that they overdid it with the then-new UREI 1176]) ... but they still sound cool.

Even the orig. mono mix of Pet Sounds has quite a bit of compression. sounds great. yeh, Brian and Chuck and everyone else involved were on top of their game, unbeatable. totally bold strokes all around.

[Bicyclerider]

I dont' feel he ruined it.  It has a strange vibe to it but that's what he was going for.  If he wanted it to not have a chorus, he would have left it like that, or if he wanted a properly written chorus he would have written one.  He wanted it to sound like the single (pretty much) did.  It was meant to sound different than anything before. 

It's easy for us to listen to songs like that and say "Oh, well if this was like this, it woud flow better" but he wasn't trying to make it the best sounding, best structured song he ever did.  He wanted it to be jarring and for the Chorus to kill the momentum a bit.  No musician is trying to make every song they record better than the last one, most musicians try to make each song sound different than the last one.

No musician except for Brian Wilson!  Brian was very competitive, with himself as much as others, and definitely wanted his next song to be "better" than the previous Good Vibrations, he wanted to "blow minds" with the next single.  Now did he give up on Heroes after Smile collapsed and deliberately "underproduce" it to get that murky sound with the organ on purpose?  Maybe.  Al thinks so.  Jarring tranisitions, I'll buy - they're all over Smile.  Did he want the chorus to kill the momentum of the single?  I doubt it.  He wanted Heroes to be a hit.

I suspect the murky sound was the result of shifting sessions from Western and Columbia to the home studio, recording vocals in the empty swimming pool, overdubbing organ and multiple layers of vocals, copying sections of the backing track and overdubbing more vocals on a now second generation backing tape, etc. - technical reasons rather than conscious decisions.

[John Stivaktas]

I can handle both the unreleased February 1967 single and the Smiley Smile version. For me, the 'In the Cantina' version is incredible until the False Barnyard ending, I always wish that the fade was different. The Smiley Smile single is very similar in timing and structure to Good Vibrations i.e. verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/tag/prelude to fade (or final chorus)/ fade (or final repeat of chorus). The knowledge of what a magnificent song Do You Like Worms could have been leaves me with regret in relation to the chorus used with the Smiley Smile version of Heroes and Villains.

[Phoenix]

I can handle both the unreleased February 1967 single and the Smiley Smile version. For me, the 'In the Cantina' version is incredible until the False Barnyard ending, I always wish that the fade was different.

I'd bet my jewels the reason it sounds "off" is because it was just tacked on as some kind of place holder.

As I said:

Cantina version, minus the Barnshine fade = part one.  Single version, from first chorus on = part two.  Once Brian decided to trim things down to a standard length single, he combined the two by putting the opening of part one at the start of part two.

I think the "finished" Cantina version we all know was a possible attempt at making a single version out of just the first half.  As bad as the barnyard fade fits, the tape explosion would have been a worse ending for the radio, which is why I think he stuck the other one on there.

[Micha]

I love the fade of the cantina version much more than the jarring single version chorus and think it fits the song very well. BTW it's not Barnyard even if it's the same chords.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I think the "finished" Cantina version we all know was a possible attempt at making a single version out of just the first half. 

That is an intriguing possibility.