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Author Topic: Post Pet Sounds: Brian's vision vs the band's vision  (Read 13213 times)
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2013, 08:58:01 PM »

Here's a question: how would the story differ if The Beach Boys had just been Brian producing/singing everything in the very first days and then just hiring guys/putting together a touring unit who were not his friends, neighbors, brothers, cousin? Would he have encountered more or less "resistance" and or guys quitting, being fired etc etc?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 09:03:29 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
KittyKat
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« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2013, 09:41:33 PM »

The place to be self-indulgent and do what you want, when you're in a band, is to go outside the band and have a solo career. Brian didn't do that, so he's as much to blame as the band. No one was stopping him. He was not the same person due to mental illness. He was seriously paranoid and that may have made him overly-sensitive to criticism and incapable of stepping away from the band even on a temporary basis. Also, the fact that his one attempt at a solo career, releasing "Caroline, No" under his own name and having it fail, may have made him lack confidence. Not to mention the fact he had no hits when producing other artists, other than his work with Jan and Dean (produced by Jan). I don't believe that it was Murry's fault for that, either. Brian hardcores blame everyone but Brian for his failure to separate from the Beach Boys, but it was combination of Brian's choices (and the fact he was hampered by serious mental illness, which some of his hardcore fans also deny) and his lack of success in the marketplace on his own, other than his collaboration with Jan and Dean, that made the situation what it was. Otherwise, he could have tried for a solo career way back in the '60s. It wouldn't have necessarily meant the end of the Beach Boys, either, because if he had been healthy, he could have done both a solo career and the Beach Boys.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2013, 09:45:08 PM »

I think this is why the BBs and BW are so fascinating once you learn their story and delve into their history. They're just so damned human.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 09:50:46 PM by Wirestone » Logged
ontor pertawst
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« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2013, 09:49:06 PM »

Fight from your hearts!
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« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2013, 09:51:28 PM »

Marylin knew what Brian told her in the bedroom. I'm certain that Brian felt beaten by the guys at some points. But it's not the TRUTH of the situation. I won't say that he was a paranoid madman who creted those band conflicts in his head. There was conflict.

But I wasn't there. And I guess Marylin wasn't as well most of the time, at least in the home studio.
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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2013, 05:47:05 AM »

There were occasions when one or two members disagreed with Brian on something (it was never Brian versus the band as people like David Leaf or Carlin would like you to believe), but, y'know, that's being in a band.

There's a real difference between Leaf and Carlin. Peter's book acknowledges a lot more of the complexity and depth of Brian's situation.

Yeah, well, the stuff he said on the Brian Wilson: Songwriter documentaries was a lot of the same fantastic/exaggerated crap. I was a little disappointed.

Quote
And I don't think you can just say the band wasn't resistant to Brian. Not when you have someone like Marilyn talking in IJWMFTT about how beaten down Brian felt by the rest of the guys. He was a sensitive person, and they were certainly not thrilled with things like the Fairy Tale on Holland. Till I Die didn't get a great reaction either. When you're ill and producing stuff of that caliber, being insulted by the other guys, or treated like you're kind of mentally deficient must have been deeply, profoundly difficult.

It's annoying how it's always "The Beach Boys versus Brian Wilson" though when that generally just was not true. The only solid, documented examples I can think of are as follows:

Mike not liking the lyrics to "Hang On To Your Ego" (but still singing them and actually offering to sing the entire song himself)
Mike questioned the lyrics to "Cabin Essence" and other Smile songs (but still singing them)
Bruce found doing the animal noises for "Barnyard" degrading (but still doing it)
Mike and/or Carl telling Brian they would not work on the "Old Man River" sections anymore
Carl and/or other members thinking "Mount Vernon And Fairway" was not appropriate for Holland (but then basically including it anyway)
Mike (or most likely Mike) calling "Til I Die" a "downer" (but still singing on it)
The rejection of the Adult Child album on some level (the details aren't entirely clear)

Meanwhile, amid the "The Beach Boys were regressive aside from Brian" crap, it's never mentioned how Dennis was Brian's biggest cheerleader during the Pet Sounds and Smile sessions, Carl would enthusiastically tell Al that Brian was doing incredible things and encouraging Al to visit during instrumental tracking sessions, the recordings of Mike occasionally going apeshit listening to Brian play songs from Love You, Bruce repeatedly praising Brian's more sophisticated material and asking "Why would you ever question Brian Wilson?", Dennis saying Brian is the Beach Boys, Mike praising Pet Sounds and condemning Capitol for under-promoting it as early as 1969, Mike, Al, Carl and Bruce speaking very fondly of the majority of the material mentioned above, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

It's just way, way too simplistic and glosses over so many details. Yes, there were lots of conflicts, and yes, I'm sure these guys were less than nice about some of their criticism toward one another on occasion, but the conflict didn't all center around Brian. Again, you're in a band, you're gonna have conflict. A lot of conflict. I'm tired of the notion of "the rest of the band wanted surf and sun songs" or "Mike wanted surf and sun songs" when their output from  has fucking zero evidence to the band wanting to regress and stick to some "formula" that worked for them in the early 60s.

Even when the sole nod to the past, "Do It Again", did better on the charts than anything else of theirs in recent years, they didn't stick with it and keep repeating themselves, they moved forward. There was commercial ambition or at least awareness, but not to the detriment of the real art that was happening, and there had always been commercial ambition from the very beginning - that goes for Pet Sounds and Smile, too.

Brian evolved, Mike evolved, Al evolved, Bruce was always Bruce, Dennis and Carl really evolved. You listen to the 67-74 material and it's progressive, it's real art, it's not retread or regression.

Thank you for this post. You are 100% correct. And focusing on Mike for a moment, it makes NO SENSE that he is to blame for the demise of Smile because he didn't want "f--k with the formula". Well, if he was so powerful and had so much influence so as to derail the entire project, how the hell was Smiley Smile put out, one of the trippiest albums of all time? And if he was so powerful and influential why didn't they go back to the surf, sun and car themes on their subsquent late 60s early 70s albums (other than do it again)?

It doesn't make sense to draw any other conclusion about what happened to Brian Wilson than this one: Brian Wilson is responsible for his own demise. PERIOD. I love the man and he is a genius. But HE is responsible for everything that has happened to him. If you want to blame someone, then blame Murray for being a terrible father.
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« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2013, 05:59:09 AM »

Well, if he was so powerful and had so much influence so as to derail the entire project, how the hell was Smiley Smile put out, one of the trippiest albums of all time? And if he was so powerful and influential why didn't they go back to the surf, sun and car themes on their subsquent late 60s early 70s albums (other than do it again)?

Capitol were desperate for a product and they had just scrapped months of work. They had to do something quickly. Also, $5,000 worth of hash might have clouded Mike's commercial instincts somewhat. 

Then they cut 12 songs about girls!
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« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2013, 06:02:04 AM »

Well, if he was so powerful and had so much influence so as to derail the entire project, how the hell was Smiley Smile put out, one of the trippiest albums of all time? And if he was so powerful and influential why didn't they go back to the surf, sun and car themes on their subsquent late 60s early 70s albums (other than do it again)?

Capitol were desperate for a product and they had just scrapped months of work. They had to do something quickly. Also, $5,000 worth of hash might have clouded Mike's commercial instincts somewhat. 

Then they cut 12 songs about girls!

No s--t! Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2013, 07:01:52 AM »

I always thought it was too bad that they didn't utilize BRI more for side projects. Brian could have pursued his more artistic projects there, while reserving the more commercial efforts for Capitol. Of course, that assumes that Brian was healthy enough to follow through on those projects, and I'm not sure he really was.
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« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2013, 08:38:21 AM »

I'm guessing the money just wasn't there by the late 60's for The Beach Boys to invest in other artists, they were very cash strapped at the time.

Bizarre scenario - imagine if the guys had signed Charles Manson back in the day and he went on to become a success, I wonder how that story would have played out?
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« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2013, 09:20:39 AM »

Well, if he was so powerful and had so much influence so as to derail the entire project, how the hell was Smiley Smile put out, one of the trippiest albums of all time? And if he was so powerful and influential why didn't they go back to the surf, sun and car themes on their subsquent late 60s early 70s albums (other than do it again)?

Capitol were desperate for a product and they had just scrapped months of work. They had to do something quickly. Also, $5,000 worth of hash might have clouded Mike's commercial instincts somewhat. 

Then they cut 12 songs about girls!

No s--t! Smiley

The issue, IMO, is one of ornateness and outside influences. The BBs had less of an issue with Brian creating nutty things as long as they were the ones doing it with him, not the likes of VDP and his pals at the time. And despite the oddness of SS, it is stripped of ornate orchestration and in-your-face studio tricks.

That being said, SS is indeed all the proof one needs that the BBs were less crazily opposed to Smile than popular myth would have one believe.
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« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2013, 09:37:28 AM »

The whole surf/hot rod music scene was a fad, killed off by the British Invasion. The Beach Boys themselves had moved on -- mainly to love songs (lyrics by Mike) -- by the summer of 1964. But still there is the peculiar idea out there that Mike, or the band as a whole, or Capitol, pressured Brian in '66 or '67 to return to making surf or car songs. No one -- not Mike, not the band, not the record company, and certainly not the record buying public  -- wanted another "Surfing USA" in 1966. "Help Me, Rhonda" maybe -- but 'Good Vibrations' put an end to that.

Also, there's a general impression that the immediate post-1966 years was some sort of commercial/popular disaster for the band. On the contrary, they made a successful transition into the counterculture/hippie/progressive music era -- successful because they survived, unlike most of their contemporaries. True, the Beatles, the Stones, and the Who flourished, and the Kinks and the Byrds, like the Beach Boys, did well enough to carry on touring and making records, but most of even the hottest bands -- the Dave Clark Five, Herman's Hermits, the Monkees, the Animals, etc. -- threw in the towel and broke up, dropped by their record companies.
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« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2013, 10:28:51 AM »

I'm tired of the notion of "the rest of the band wanted surf and sun songs" or "Mike wanted surf and sun songs" when their output from  has fucking zero evidence to the band wanting to regress and stick to some "formula" that worked for them in the early 60s.

Yup exactly!  That's exactly why I felt there was such contradiction in the Beach Boys story.  I was spoon fed this information but it just wasn't adding up in my head (as you could follow in my previous posts in this thread).  If they were really so stuck with the fun in the sun stuff...how in the world did they release albums like Smiley Smile or Holland?  Why is it that this story is still being perpetuated?  I'm just now watching the Brian Wilson Songwriter DVDs and finished the 1962-1969 set and it goes onto to remind us AGAIN how the band was difficult with Brian's new music (um, but they still sang and recorded them). It's kind of confusing to follow one narrative that isn't so biased one way or the other.

I think it's far too easy to say that because the dominant historical narrative is wrong, the opposite belief must therefore be true. It ain't that simple.

That's exactly what I'm learning in this thread.  The truth apparently lies somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.   
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« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2013, 10:52:57 AM »

The whole surf/hot rod music scene was a fad, killed off by the British Invasion. The Beach Boys themselves had moved on -- mainly to love songs (lyrics by Mike) -- by the summer of 1964. But still there is the peculiar idea out there that Mike, or the band as a whole, or Capitol, pressured Brian in '66 or '67 to return to making surf or car songs. No one -- not Mike, not the band, not the record company, and certainly not the record buying public  -- wanted another "Surfing USA" in 1966. "Help Me, Rhonda" maybe -- but 'Good Vibrations' put an end to that.

Also, there's a general impression that the immediate post-1966 years was some sort of commercial/popular disaster for the band. On the contrary, they made a successful transition into the counterculture/hippie/progressive music era -- successful because they survived, unlike most of their contemporaries. True, the Beatles, the Stones, and the Who flourished, and the Kinks and the Byrds, like the Beach Boys, did well enough to carry on touring and making records, but most of even the hottest bands -- the Dave Clark Five, Herman's Hermits, the Monkees, the Animals, etc. -- threw in the towel and broke up, dropped by their record companies.

Well, yeah. Everyone should fail so spectacularly that, 50 years later, they are still selling out concerts.

I also question the assumption that Endless Summer automatically doomed their chances to go beyond being an oldies act. Endless Summer brought them back to public awareness. They were a hot item again. Some of their new singles after that charted, so I don't think the public was dead set against new Beach Boys material.  I think the lack of success in going forward is down to a fractured band dynamic and lack of cohesive creative/business direction. They needed a game plan to get them positioned correctly.  But, since the crowds were mainly there for the classics and they really didn't know how to tap into the nostalgic wave but still bring in the new material, they took the path of least resistance.
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« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2013, 11:06:19 AM »

Brian seemed to take a fleeting charge at following up Endless Summer with songs like "california feeling, Good Timin, and Its ok"
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« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2013, 12:37:17 PM »

Brian seemed to take a fleeting charge at following up Endless Summer with songs like "california feeling, Good Timin, and Its ok"

Yes, but I wish I/we/they/you(?) didn't view it as such a negative. It was still art. It was still timeless. It was still beautiful. It was still honest Brian Wilson and honest Beach Boys. There was nothing wrong with "going there" for that moment in time - the Endless Summer/Spirit Of America/15 Big Ones years 1974-76. That wasn't going to hurt or kill their career. The decisions and poor execution after that period (post-1976) did much more damage.
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« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2013, 12:56:18 PM »

I'm guessing the money just wasn't there by the late 60's for The Beach Boys to invest in other artists, they were very cash strapped at the time.

Bizarre scenario - imagine if the guys had signed Charles Manson back in the day and he went on to become a success, I wonder how that story would have played out?

Several folks might still be alive, at least......  Cry
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« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2013, 01:08:31 PM »

I always thought it was too bad that they didn't utilize BRI more for side projects. Brian could have pursued his more artistic projects there, while reserving the more commercial efforts for Capitol. Of course, that assumes that Brian was healthy enough to follow through on those projects, and I'm not sure he really was.


The best side project(s) that could've been pursued would've been Brian Wilson solo albums. In some ways, it seemed like a no-brainer. Brian could've recorded all of his eclectic, personal, "arty" songs and released them under his name. Then he could've given/recorded all of his "Beach Boy-ish" songs to the group. Then we could've gotten ALL of Brian's creativity and ideas out there - SMiLE, a 1970-71 solo album, etc.

Of course there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but just think it they could've pulled it off! The Beach Boys could never agree on that, and, as you mentioned, after 1968 Brian might not have been up to it.
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« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2013, 01:19:42 PM »

I always thought it was too bad that they didn't utilize BRI more for side projects. Brian could have pursued his more artistic projects there, while reserving the more commercial efforts for Capitol. Of course, that assumes that Brian was healthy enough to follow through on those projects, and I'm not sure he really was.


The best side project(s) that could've been pursued would've been Brian Wilson solo albums. In some ways, it seemed like a no-brainer. Brian could've recorded all of his eclectic, personal, "arty" songs and released them under his name. Then he could've given/recorded all of his "Beach Boy-ish" songs to the group. Then we could've gotten ALL of Brian's creativity and ideas out there - SMiLE, a 1970-71 solo album, etc.

Of course there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but just think it they could've pulled it off! The Beach Boys could never agree on that, and, as you mentioned, after 1968 Brian might not have been up to it.

I just don't see how Brian's "arty" stuff didn't fit with everyone else's. Even Smile doesn't strike me as being too "far out" from a lot of the stuff they did in the late 60s or early 70s that most or all of the band was on board with. We know Mike and Carl contributed a lot to the creation and completion of "Cool, Cool Water", for instance.

That's not saying zomg what a bunch of weirdos, it's more that these guys were all about on the same page. Maybe very different spots on that page, maybe a page or two off, but always pretty close.

A Brian solo career at that point would've been redundant, to me. Even the 88 album has me scratching my head, although I'm sure that was at Landy's insistence. I don't know if Brian even had entire albums of material he considered worthwhile and finished back in the late 60s or early 70s.
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« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2013, 01:20:24 PM »

I always thought it was too bad that they didn't utilize BRI more for side projects. Brian could have pursued his more artistic projects there, while reserving the more commercial efforts for Capitol. Of course, that assumes that Brian was healthy enough to follow through on those projects, and I'm not sure he really was.


The best side project(s) that could've been pursued would've been Brian Wilson solo albums. In some ways, it seemed like a no-brainer. Brian could've recorded all of his eclectic, personal, "arty" songs and released them under his name. Then he could've given/recorded all of his "Beach Boy-ish" songs to the group. Then we could've gotten ALL of Brian's creativity and ideas out there - SMiLE, a 1970-71 solo album, etc.

Of course there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but just think it they could've pulled it off! The Beach Boys could never agree on that, and, as you mentioned, after 1968 Brian might not have been up to it.
Just the story about Redwood and Time To Get Alone will tell you that at that time I don't think The Beach Boys really knew the difference between Brian's artsy music and Beach Boys-type music.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2013, 01:25:53 PM »

I always thought it was too bad that they didn't utilize BRI more for side projects. Brian could have pursued his more artistic projects there, while reserving the more commercial efforts for Capitol. Of course, that assumes that Brian was healthy enough to follow through on those projects, and I'm not sure he really was.


The best side project(s) that could've been pursued would've been Brian Wilson solo albums. In some ways, it seemed like a no-brainer. Brian could've recorded all of his eclectic, personal, "arty" songs and released them under his name. Then he could've given/recorded all of his "Beach Boy-ish" songs to the group. Then we could've gotten ALL of Brian's creativity and ideas out there - SMiLE, a 1970-71 solo album, etc.

Of course there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but just think it they could've pulled it off! The Beach Boys could never agree on that, and, as you mentioned, after 1968 Brian might not have been up to it.
Just the story about Redwood and Time To Get Alone will tell you that at that time I don't think The Beach Boys really knew the difference between Brian's artsy music and Beach Boys-type music.

Don't think they cared.

I'm very, very glad the guys got "Time To Get Alone" and "Darlin'". The Redwood version of "Get Alone" is nowhere near as good as any mix of the Beach Boys version.
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« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2013, 01:37:57 PM »

I always thought it was too bad that they didn't utilize BRI more for side projects. Brian could have pursued his more artistic projects there, while reserving the more commercial efforts for Capitol. Of course, that assumes that Brian was healthy enough to follow through on those projects, and I'm not sure he really was.


The best side project(s) that could've been pursued would've been Brian Wilson solo albums. In some ways, it seemed like a no-brainer. Brian could've recorded all of his eclectic, personal, "arty" songs and released them under his name. Then he could've given/recorded all of his "Beach Boy-ish" songs to the group. Then we could've gotten ALL of Brian's creativity and ideas out there - SMiLE, a 1970-71 solo album, etc.

Of course there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but just think it they could've pulled it off! The Beach Boys could never agree on that, and, as you mentioned, after 1968 Brian might not have been up to it.
Just the story about Redwood and Time To Get Alone will tell you that at that time I don't think The Beach Boys really knew the difference between Brian's artsy music and Beach Boys-type music.

Don't think they cared.

I'm very, very glad the guys got "Time To Get Alone" and "Darlin'". The Redwood version of "Get Alone" is nowhere near as good as any mix of the Beach Boys version.
I quite agree. Just saying that the guys didn't see a difference with Brian's music. Everything he wrote was free game to become a Beach Boys song.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2013, 01:40:37 PM »

This is just something I quickly threw together, a collection of songs that, for some reason or another, didn't make the cut for Beach Boys' albums. I think it would've made a great Brian Wilson solo album. It's what I was talking about above, kind of "out-there" BW songs, maybe songs that would've gotten frowns and quizzicle looks from the Beach Boys. Fine, you don't have to release them, I (Brian) will. I do agree with you guys; it never could have happened. But I wish it would've. It's fun to fantasize:

Brian Wilson - My Solution (1971) Produced by Brian Wilson

Side A

1. Games Two Can Play
2. My Solution
3. I Just Got My Pay
4. When Girls Get Together
5. H.E.L.P. Is On The Way
6. Sail Plane Song

Side B

1. Been Way Too Long
2. Awake
3. We're Together Again
4. A Day In The Life Of A Tree
5. Til I Die
6. Old Man River
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« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2013, 02:08:02 PM »

I always thought it was too bad that they didn't utilize BRI more for side projects. Brian could have pursued his more artistic projects there, while reserving the more commercial efforts for Capitol. Of course, that assumes that Brian was healthy enough to follow through on those projects, and I'm not sure he really was.


The best side project(s) that could've been pursued would've been Brian Wilson solo albums. In some ways, it seemed like a no-brainer. Brian could've recorded all of his eclectic, personal, "arty" songs and released them under his name. Then he could've given/recorded all of his "Beach Boy-ish" songs to the group. Then we could've gotten ALL of Brian's creativity and ideas out there - SMiLE, a 1970-71 solo album, etc.

Of course there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but just think it they could've pulled it off! The Beach Boys could never agree on that, and, as you mentioned, after 1968 Brian might not have been up to it.

That's why I think it was a missed opportunity. Apparently Brian felt the "boys" didn't like to take on some of his efforts.  "Til I Die," comes to mind.  Brian apparently worried about the "downer" content enough that he wrote alternate lyrics.  Yes, I know they did record it. Yes, I know it was on the album. But, if there had been an alternate outlet for those kinds of things, Brian could have gone ahead and poured himself into whatever similar ideas struck him, without worrying about the band's or Capitol's take on them. Ditto for rest of the guys. Anything that didn't "fit" with the Beach Boys could have been developed as a personal side project without any conflict from the others. It could have been a bit of a creative safe haven for each member of the band.
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« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2013, 02:21:57 PM »

 SJS...Swap Til I Die and OMR, and you got yourself a deal.
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