Separation of Church n' State

[Chocolate Shake Man]

FAIL!
Are you saying nobody would help anyone else if the government didn't make them?!

The government doesn't make anyone do it. If the people have a problem with it, they have the power to change it. But, no, that's not what I'm saying. But if you are going to suggest that the government is the direct cause of lost lives, then I can counter that they are the direct cause of lives being saved.

Since the government can only use force to do anything (including 'good' things) it IS ALWAYS BAD.

Totalitarian governments not democratic ones.

Remember, the government is made of people. Obvious, but important. By your logic, only these amazing people in government have any desire to help anyone and, shucks, nobody will voluntarily give them their money, so they are just gonna have to take your money and do something good for you, because you (who is also a person) are incapable of choosing how best to use your limited resources. What a joke!

When you are ready to exit fantasy land and actually have a discussion like a grown up, let me know.

[grillo]

FAIL!
Are you saying nobody would help anyone else if the government didn't make them?!

The government doesn't make anyone do it. If the people have a problem with it, they have the power to change it. But, no, that's not what I'm saying. But if you are going to suggest that the government is the direct cause of lost lives, then I can counter that they are the direct cause of lives being saved.

Since the government can only use force to do anything (including 'good' things) it IS ALWAYS BAD.

Totalitarian governments not democratic ones.

Remember, the government is made of people. Obvious, but important. By your logic, only these amazing people in government have any desire to help anyone and, shucks, nobody will voluntarily give them their money, so they are just gonna have to take your money and do something good for you, because you (who is also a person) are incapable of choosing how best to use your limited resources. What a joke!

When you are ready to exit fantasy land and actually have a discussion like a grown up, let me know.

Yeah, I'll make sure to keep you posted.

[Alex]

Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

[drbeachboy]

Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

That is a pretty bold statement, considering how many people on this Earth are believers of some religion or another. It might be moot to you, but when people are willing to kill for and over it, science still hasn't convinced everyone that it is outdated and no longer needed.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

At this point, it's hard to see a workable solution emerging any time soon in Egypt.

There's a fairly easy one as far as I can tell. Restore the democratically elected government which, as problematic as they were, were not arbitrarily killing citizens in self-proclaimed "crackdowns," and were adhering to constitutional principles rather than suspending the constitution. Hold them accountable through things like public protests which actually worked with this government. With Morsi public protests actually had an effect. With the military regime that it is now, it resulted in mass human rights violations and illegal detentions. Seems to me the choice is simple and if we actually cared about the people of Egypt, we would do best to focus on the realities. Pretending as if the central problem in Egypt are the victims of illegal totalitarianism will get us nowhere and can only perpetuate the central problems that have plagued Egyptians for decades.

[grillo]

At this point, it's hard to see a workable solution emerging any time soon in Egypt.

There's a fairly easy one as far as I can tell. Restore the democratically elected government which, as problematic as they were, were not arbitrarily killing citizens in self-proclaimed "crackdowns," and were adhering to constitutional principles rather than suspending the constitution. Hold them accountable through things like public protests which actually worked with this government. With Morsi public protests actually had an effect. With the military regime that it is now, it resulted in mass human rights violations and illegal detentions. Seems to me the choice is simple and if we actually cared about the people of Egypt, we would do best to focus on the realities. Pretending as if the central problem in Egypt are the victims of illegal totalitarianism will get us nowhere and can only perpetuate the central problems that have plagued Egyptians for decades.

Wow. You actually believe what you're saying, don't you?! And you say I live in fantasy land! Is it really that hard for you to look around and see that none, i mean NONE, of the things you claimed as a solution are even slightly possible, even here in the crappy old USA, where your government just passed a law that makes it illegal to protest (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lee-camp/anti-occupy-law-passes-nea_b_1343728.html? But hey, just be vigilant, or, uh, vote for someone else, or get the right law passed. Get a grip! Time for some new ideas rather than all this 'democracy is somehow always good, you just wait and see' schtick which makes no sense. Why tow the line for the staus quo?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

At this point, it's hard to see a workable solution emerging any time soon in Egypt.

There's a fairly easy one as far as I can tell. Restore the democratically elected government which, as problematic as they were, were not arbitrarily killing citizens in self-proclaimed "crackdowns," and were adhering to constitutional principles rather than suspending the constitution. Hold them accountable through things like public protests which actually worked with this government. With Morsi public protests actually had an effect. With the military regime that it is now, it resulted in mass human rights violations and illegal detentions. Seems to me the choice is simple and if we actually cared about the people of Egypt, we would do best to focus on the realities. Pretending as if the central problem in Egypt are the victims of illegal totalitarianism will get us nowhere and can only perpetuate the central problems that have plagued Egyptians for decades.

Wow. You actually believe what you're saying, don't you?! And you say I live in fantasy land! Is it really that hard for you to look around and see that none, i mean NONE, of the things you claimed as a solution are even slightly possible, even here in the crappy old USA, where your government just passed a law that makes it illegal to protest (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lee-camp/anti-occupy-law-passes-nea_b_1343728.html? But hey, just be vigilant, or, uh, vote for someone else, or get the right law passed. Get a grip! Time for some new ideas rather than all this 'democracy is somehow always good, you just wait and see' schtick which makes no sense. Why tow the line for the staus quo?

Again, you are not really engaging with what I'm actually saying. Rather, you are making up my position and throwing a tantrum over it. Again, when you are ready to engage like an adult, please let me know. In the meantime, you can familiarize yourself with what I actually believe in my "A Long History" thread.

[Bean Bag]

Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

Science & Religion are just two completely different things serving two wholly different needs.  Religion has served as the basis of morality and the building blocks of society and human understanding.  If there was nothing more to life than science we'd all be Communists or something horrible like that.  You know... "workers" just serving out our meaningless existence, usually for the pleasure of the Pharaoh or someone like Cass Sunstein.  We'd be whatever some opportunistic turds want us to be.


Cass Sunstein

Lucky there's more to life than modern science -- or whatever the current limits of human intelligence can conceive.  As well, I don't like the term MODERN.  As if human beings have only NOW begun to live and understand the world around them.  It's awfully vain when you think about it.  Nothing more than a predictable fantasy (or lack thereof) of each subsequent generation to be shocked that their parents and grandparents had s3x and dirty words and stuff in their time.  Awfully, awfully vain.

[Loaf]

Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

Science & Religion are just two completely different things serving two wholly different needs.  Religion has served as the basis of morality and the building blocks of society and human understanding.

Hey, Bean Bag, we might agree on something! It might be apropos of nothing anyone's said on here, but it frustrates me when people politicise science. Science is apolitical. Science was around before there was a polity. Why does a ball fall to the ground when you drop it? That's science. Why do x-rays take pictures of bones? Science. How does an aspirin dull pain? Science! How has evolution from fish to humans produced a male sex that is prone to inguinal hernias? Science!

The great thing about science is that it doesn't need anyone to believe in it for it to be true. Disbelieve gravity all you want, it still exists. Wipe human knowledge, and gravity will be discovered again. Wipe human knowledge and religion as we know it would exist in radically different forms.

There's no need to create a mutually exclusive culture of Science vs Religion, as if one would negate the need for the other.

[Rocky Raccoon]

I can't tell if Bean Bag is serious or if he's just the most dedicated internet troll on these message boards.

[Bean Bag]

I can't tell if Bean Bag is serious or if he's just the most dedicated internet troll on these message boards.

Can you call someone a troll in a thread that they themselves started?  Of course you can -- if it helps you feel like you one-upped me.   

The real question, however, remains -- will you be open to my advice and add more balance and testosterone to your News coverage?

[Bean Bag]

Hey, Bean Bag, we might agree on something!

Right on!  And hey, we're also both probably incurable Beach Boy fans!  

... it frustrates me when people politicise science. Science is apolitical.

Well said.  Science should not be politicized, as it should be a study in the field of truth.  

The great thing about science is that it doesn't need anyone to believe in it for it to be true. Disbelieve gravity all you want, it still exists. Wipe human knowledge, and gravity will be discovered again. Wipe human knowledge and religion as we know it would exist in radically different forms.

Yep.  The definition of truth.  It exists whether we see it or not.  I see Christianity, a.ka.; the words of Jesus/the word of God as the same.  The Truth.  A lot like that good, common sense advice that our parents and grandparents gave us.  Stuff like "don't put all your eggs in one basket," "be positive," "tell the truth," "don't spend all your money in one place," "don't get drunk and run around with your pants off..." you know... good advice.  

[Bean Bag]

politizied science...



DENIALSTS!

[alf wiedersehen]

.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Let me make myself perfectly clear.  I think worship is a wonderful thing.  I personally don't participate in worship but I admire that those who do are able to find faith in that and hold on to something in that.  However, religion should never affect the way we think.  That's the flaw, that there are people who believe the bible, Torah, or Quran should be the final word on what is moral.  We don't even know who wrote those books and when's the last time any of them have been updated?

[Bean Bag]

Let me make myself perfectly clear.  I think worship is a wonderful thing.  I personally don't participate in worship but I admire that those who do are able to find faith in that and hold on to something in that.  However, religion should never affect the way we think.  That's the flaw, that there are people who believe the bible, Torah, or Quran should be the final word on what is moral.  We don't even know who wrote those books and when's the last time any of them have been updated?

How can you admire people that find faith and worship, etc. in something that you find outdated, flawed and absolute?

[Rocky Raccoon]

Let me make myself perfectly clear.  I think worship is a wonderful thing.  I personally don't participate in worship but I admire that those who do are able to find faith in that and hold on to something in that.  However, religion should never affect the way we think.  That's the flaw, that there are people who believe the bible, Torah, or Quran should be the final word on what is moral.  We don't even know who wrote those books and when's the last time any of them have been updated?

How can you admire people that find faith and worship, etc. in something that you find outdated, flawed and absolute?

Because it makes them feel good, because they don't use it as a defense mechanism, they keep it to themselves, and they don't think it's wrong to believe in something different.

[Bean Bag]

One of the things I believe about religion is -- we can't avoid it.  If someone says they don't have one -- to me, that's their religion.  If someone says they're "a half-assed Catholic" or whatever -- fine, but that's their religion.  If they say they're a hardcore Catholic, good for them -- that's their religion.

That's basically how I see it.  Religion is just how we see things.  (Should I stop here?)



At the state level, this also applies.  I think it's pure fantasy to believe we can separate the two.  Ironically, as we attempt to do this... the State's ways become the State-endorsed religion.  Which is what the whole concept of Separation o' Church n' State wanted to avoid.  Currently, in the view of the white-robed State priests, Birth Control is good and right.  Therefore it's the Catholic Church that needs to "modernize and 'evolve'" or however they're selling it.

Likewise, you said you respect people's faith, if they keep it to themselves and don't use it as a defense mechanism, feel good about it and don't dismiss others who feel differently.  That's fine... but do you follow that advice?  Remember what your real religion is to me -- it ain't Judaism -- rather, your view of Judaism, with a dose of Stateism.  You said that Birth Control was ok and did not keep it to yourself.

To me, you're applying a different set of standards on religious tolerance for others than you do for yourself.  This is a common practice among Stateists Church followers.  (I'll stop there.)



 

[Alex]

Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

That is a pretty bold statement, considering how many people on this Earth are believers of some religion or another. It might be moot to you, but when people are willing to kill for and over it, science still hasn't convinced everyone that it is outdated and no longer needed.

This may sound a little better:

In my opinion,Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

[Mike's Beard]

Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

That is a pretty bold statement, considering how many people on this Earth are believers of some religion or another. It might be moot to you, but when people are willing to kill for and over it, science still hasn't convinced everyone that it is outdated and no longer needed.

This may sound a little better:

In my opinion,Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

That sums up exactly how I feel on the subject too Alex.

[drbeachboy]

Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

That is a pretty bold statement, considering how many people on this Earth are believers of some religion or another. It might be moot to you, but when people are willing to kill for and over it, science still hasn't convinced everyone that it is outdated and no longer needed.

This may sound a little better:

In my opinion,Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

But that is not the point. You may be absolutely correct in your assumption, but there are probably billions of people around the world who will disagree with that assumption and do. Until you convince those people to your thinking religion will always be an issue.

[Alex]

Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

That is a pretty bold statement, considering how many people on this Earth are believers of some religion or another. It might be moot to you, but when people are willing to kill for and over it, science still hasn't convinced everyone that it is outdated and no longer needed.

This may sound a little better:

In my opinion,Modern science renders religion moot. Outdated, outmoded, not needed. Mythical fairy stories written in ancient times.

But that is not the point. You may be absolutely correct in your assumption, but there are probably billions of people around the world who will disagree with that assumption and do. Until you convince those people to your thinking religion will always be an issue.

I'm not out to change anyone's beliefs or lack thereof. I was just expressing an opinion. I don't see religion going away anytime soon.

[guitarfool2002]

One of the most fascinating aspects of the science versus religion/faith topic can be found in medical science. There are many accounts of certain things happening in healing and medicine which defy science, or for which doctors have no scientific or medical reasons for how or why they happened. The term "miracle" gets used quite often in these situations where a doctor who would not normally use that kind of term in his or her field simply has no other explanation rooted in their medical or scientific knowledge.

I'm forgetting the man's name, maybe someone can fill in, but there was one historian who worked on the issues of religion vs. science extensively, but as he began digging deeper into the field of medicine, he gave up in light of what he found which could not be explained and which even doctors, again not usually given to reaching beyond a scientific explanation, attributed to something unexplainable.

It's not at all taking sides, but for those interested in this debate it would definitely be a topic worth looking at further.

[Loaf]

One of the most fascinating aspects of the science versus religion/faith topic can be found in medical science. There are many accounts of certain things happening in healing and medicine which defy science, or for which doctors have no scientific or medical reasons for how or why they happened. The term "miracle" gets used quite often in these situations where a doctor who would not normally use that kind of term in his or her field simply has no other explanation rooted in their medical or scientific knowledge.

I'm forgetting the man's name, maybe someone can fill in, but there was one historian who worked on the issues of religion vs. science extensively, but as he began digging deeper into the field of medicine, he gave up in light of what he found which could not be explained and which even doctors, again not usually given to reaching beyond a scientific explanation, attributed to something unexplainable.

It's not at all taking sides, but for those interested in this debate it would definitely be a topic worth looking at further.

Firstly, these kinds of statements are so vague and full of hearsay as to be utterly meaningless unless you can provide any kind of independently verified sources.

Secondly, let's hear no more about "science" versus "religion". That is also nonsense.

[Mike's Beard]

People tend to attach religious significance to anything thing science has yet to find an explanation for.