Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[SMiLE Brian]

I am just saying Mike is the type of person that never regrets anything in hindsight, he sticks to his "guns" for better or worse.

[filledeplage]

I am just saying Mike is the type of person that never regrets anything in hindsight, he sticks to his "guns" for better or worse.

Come on, everyone has regrets.  I regret the brand new Dodge Caravan I bought in 1987! A lemon!

We all regret all kinds of stuff but, what is past, is past.  We make bad job choices, but we learn from them, and grow. What I LOVE about them is that they "take the risk" even if it is a commercial failure.  They've tried just about every style.  Even if it flopped, they took a shot. Leaders and people of greatness "take a shot" and they risk failure, and learn from the process.

The only error in a bad choice is not to find the lesson, and turn it around and grow from it.  

[clack]

Who on this planet knows what "columnated ruins domino" actually means.

Brian explained the lyrics at the time. This line means something about the established institutions of society crumbling.

Don't know why this line has perplexed so many. Ancient Greek-type ruins (that is, ruins with columns) topple into each other and knock themeselves over like dominoes. It's a metaphor for how the counter-culture perceived the state of American institutions in the late 60's.

Still, if Mike was assigned to sing a line that he didn't understand, he would have been right to ask the lyricist what the line meant, so that he, Mike, could sing the line with the appropriate emphasis and emotion. VDP is more to blame in that situation for getting all arty-farty with that "it means whatever you want it to mean" crap.

[oldsurferdude]

Mike is not one to regret anything, his ego won't allow it.

Come on, SmileBrian, can anyone comment about someone's ego if they aren't a shrink? With a medical degree.

That is a personal attack. 

You're smarter and nicer than that.  I think. 

Yup, shame on you sbfor having your own opinion! And you're not a nice person either-hold your hand out now.

[SMiLE Brian]

I guess I am in trouble at ML's school of hard knocks...

[filledeplage]

Mike is not one to regret anything, his ego won't allow it.

Come on, SmileBrian, can anyone comment about someone's ego if they aren't a shrink? With a medical degree.

That is a personal attack. 

You're smarter and nicer than that.  I think. 

Yup, shame on you sbfor having your own opinion! And you're not a nice person either-hold your hand out now.

OSD - anyone can and should have an opinion that is within your realm.  An easy attack is always to say someone is "crazy" but, can they really back that up?   Or to say someone, as you've said about Mike is that he has a "big ego." Maybe he just doesn't "suffer fools" and dignify an attack with a return attack.

"Suffer fools gladly," is from St. Paul in his 2nd letter to the people of Corinth.  It urges resignation (or perhaps tolerance) of others.

Calling out the "ego of another?"  That is for an MD.  Not me, and if you don't have an MD, not you, either. JMHO

A little objectivity would be nice here;  you don't like Mike.  Most, here can get that.  And some have no tolerance for those who don't agree. 

[LostArt]

I know most of you have read this already, but for those who haven't...this is from the Vosse Fusion article:               


  "As to the other Beach Boys at this time: Dennis and Carl, being Brian's brothers, hung out at the house a little more perhaps than anyone else...So they would be around a lot.  Mike Love and Brian, you know...disagreed and then agreed...I think they must have a very strong bond that causes them to have this kind of friction; it doesn't really destroy their relationship.  But at that time, Mike and Brian were a little on the outs because Van Dyke was doing all the lyrics - and Mike didn't really think that was where it was at...

   Finally what happened was, Capitol settled out of court 'cause they held one trump card: they knew the Beach Boys wanted...Well, Capitol told them they could be on Brother Records, distributed through Capitol - and they would get their $250,000 immediately; and I believe they got a guarantee that had to be at least a million dollars...So the Beach Boys took it, and that's when things started getting bad.

   That's when several things contributed to what I would call Brian's growing uncertainty about whether or not he could fulfill this project: Smile.  The first uncertainty, was whether or not the group could cut it.  While they were in England, Brian cut the tracks - and the tracks were just brilliant, I mean, you would have loved them.

   So all of these tracks had been done at Western, and everything was ready, and the Beach Boys returned from their triumphant English tour - and the whole thing started going nuts then.  First three sessions with the group were just full of confusion, because what Brian would do was give them a bit at a time: he didn't like teach them a song; he used them like instruments: he'd teach Mike Love one little part, and somebody else this, that, and the other...Then he'd spend about three days recording and recording and recording to get one song right; then he'd finish with it, tell them everything was fine - and two days later, he'd go back in alone, take out a voice track of say Carl which wasn't right, and he'd put his own voice in instead; and then he'd dabble with somebody else's - and before you knew it, it was almost all Brian.  Al Jardine, though, did a lot of good singing at that time - really good singing.  And Mike Love always comes through very well on what it is he does, which is pretty limited.

   Then, the guys started getting up tight about the material.  They were worried about how they'd do it in person.  Now they're orchestrated, but even then Brian was considering a full orchestra to back them up...and that sort of forestalled things a little: they thought it might be a good idea.

   Then, tension developed in the studio, because what it came down to was that Brian and Van Dyke had come up with music a little too complex for them, and which they began to resent.  A lot of the arguments that took place were between Brian and Mike Love.  And a lot of people would go off into corners together - the sure sign that a group is in trouble: where you have two over in this half, and two other there at the same time - huddling, and saying: hey, you know, this fucking thing...There was a lot of that.

   Right in the middle of this, older members of the Wilson family did everything possible to destroy the relationship between Brian and Van Dyke, Brian and David Anderle, and Brian and me.  They did it out of suspicion, and they didn't like our appearances...suspicion that the Beach Boys would dissolve the minute they...Well, I can quote Murry Wilson one night sitting down with me and astounding me, telling me what a horrible mistake it had been for Brian to put out "Good Vibrations" - because, he said, Brian's going to lose his whole audience: those kids don't want to hear that; the Boys have got to go back to what they were doing.  So that became the big argument: Are we gonna lose our image or are we gonna start a new one...

   So, in the studio, things were going off and on: the album was moving very slowly, and it missed it's Christmas release - so at that point they decided to concentrate on the single, "Heroes and Villains" - of which there must have been a dozen versions.  The best version I heard, which was never completed, but at least I could see the form of it, was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes.  It was a beautifully structured work; and Van Dyke was still very invlolved.

   To catch up on him: As schisms developed within the Beach Boys inner organization, so there developed a tendency within a family, which is what the Beach Boys basically are - to find an external object on which to place blame for whatever's wrong.  Well, of course, Van Dyke Parks was the most convenient target.

   Van Dyke Parks does have an ego, too.  He could get a little snooty with Brian, and Brian didn't like that.  Actually, they would fight every once in awhile; they would have arguments: Van Dyke would get really mad because he hated working in a subservient position where there was someone that could say no; and Brian always maintained that.  And every once in awhile, he would say no just to let Van Dyke know he could say no: and that's what really made Van Dyke mad.

   And as the Beach Boys saw there was a thing there between Van Dyke and Brian that was vulnerable, instantly the pressure started being on Van Dyke: who soon just sort of walked away from it.

   Now Van Dyke and Brian usually wrote up at Brian's house at the piano late at night: they both liked to work at night - all night sessions; and they usually worked alone.  There was no need for anyone else to be there.

   Where I saw a musical cooperation going on was definitely in the studios, and particularly when they were cutting tracks.  I mean, Van Dyke played on them.  In the studio together, they had a very happy relationship, you know.  That's the area where he had great respect for Brian, and I'm sure was influenced by Brian in instrumentation, orchestration, and producing.  So he kind of tried not to impose too much on that.  However, Brian wanted him there all the time, and when problems would develop he would call him; and the two of them in the studio together were just a joy, without the other guys around: they had a good time...They used these good musicians like Jimmy Gordon, and some of these funky old violin players that Brian would find, and cello players...Like Brian really loved the cello and the French horn as instruments, which few people used in rock records but he used all the time.  So, Van and Brian got on fine.

   I would say...half-way through the production of the single "Heroes and Villains", as things become more indecisive - Van Dyke at that time had been approached by Lenny Waronker to do this arrangement for the Mojo Men, and actually he sort of tried to get out of it - he didn't want to do it that much, but he did.  Brian, however, had wanted to sign Van Dyke to Brother Records, and produce him.  But Van Dyke knew too much at that point about what went on with the Beach Boys - and didn't want Brian to produce him because he knew the two of them could probably never get it done.

   And so Lenny called Van to help out with Harpers Bizarre, and one day Warner's really told him how much they liked him, and offered him a very good deal: I think he got a very excellent contract from them.  So he signed.
   And the day that he signed he put his head back into his own music again.
   And was less and less available to Brian.
   And Brian was less and less sure of what he was doing with the album."

[Cam Mott]

Cam a great post. I found a insane blog attacking me personally for articulating these same thoughts. It helps when others help speak an unpopular truth.

Thank you.

In less than a year he knocked out 3 new albums. He had two albums finished in the half year after scrapping SMiLE. He was as prolific as he had ever been.

Prolific yes - but the music was not as ambitious.  Obviously that's what he wanted, or needed, at the time.

I don't know. Can it be ambitious without being elaborate. Seems pretty ambitious.

To me it seems he was never that into the lyrics. You know, he liked that they were "scary" at first, he's explaining them to non-band, then he records some for national TV, then he's not so sure, then he and VDP are arguing about them being "too sophisticated", then he calls VDP to explain them to the band, then the sessions stop, then some are aired on national TV, and in a week and a half it is announced that SMiLE has been cancelled.

He also apparently told Taylor that the music was "too elaborate" and "old fashioned" which to me explains why his musical ambitions went the way they did.

[filledeplage]

I guess I am in trouble at ML's school of hard knocks...

Not really.  There's always another side of the coin to be looked at.  I took my time, watching the Touring Band, after Carl died and things fell apart.  Brian, whom I had seen ONCE between 1965 and 1999 and forward, (with Landy in the wings) was solo, by choice, and I was psyched to FINALLY see him, and saw him and Al, etc., every chance I could.

But, it was different with the Post-Carl Touring Band.  It was almost like going back to "square one." And, I'm a really tough critic. (I think.) As time passed, I saw more good (than the "reported bad") in the Touring Band. What I saw was work ethic, and a building process.  I felt that Mike worked hard to be worthy of the name. People will differ.  That is fine.
And, remember, Brian seemed to want to do the solo stuff.  More BB music for greedy me!  

As time, about 10+ years passed, with Brian on Tour, doing his solo work, it was so cool; SMiLE, TLOS, regular shows, all good.  That doesn't mean I must hate Mike.  What is that about? We can all like as many or as few as we like.

Can people like Brian's AND Mike's Band? (And Al's?) Can't people appreciate the work of them all?

Or is that the new 11th Commandment? Picking a side?

[drbeachboy]

I'm not one for revisionist history, but even I'm 100% behind the fact that BRIAN SCRAPPED SMILE. It was solely his decision. 

Ask yourself this. If Mike was really that dead set against the direction Brian was heading, why on earth did he then help record Smiley Smile, which is way more trippy and weird than Smile ever was.

That has always been my argument, as well. Plus, as we have been told by Linett and Boyd. It would have taken the digital age to get Smile put together properly.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The perplexing thing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will.

I always considered Mike to be an intelligent person, certainly sophisticated. Mike was always involved in a lot of other areas with a lot of different people, much more than the other Beach Boys. Mike was involved in other activities outside of The Beach Boys' world which helped him broaden his horizons.

But, unfortunately (?), this did not translate into shaping or advancing Mike's view of music as art. In reading several of Mike's interviews over the years, and several of them on SMiLE, Mike's view of music as an art form is very simplistic and limited. Some of this is stubborness as it applies to The Beach Boys. Mike has his view on how the group is to be perceived and what musical direction they should pursue, and it goes beyond commercialism and "giving the people what they want". There is too much "this is who were are" and not enough "this is who we could be".

There have been times when I appreciated Mike's stance, and I certainly understand how he got there. To some extent, the experimental, "non-Beach Boyish" music nearly bankrupted the group. And, Mike can - and will - point out how the good old, fun, summer-ry, girl/boy music kept the group going over 52 years. Mike just doesn't budge enough on it, or consider other realms that could complement his vision of the band. I guess you could say Mike doesn't equate "art" with the Beach Boys outside of that small window which he looks out of. And, as we know, he always uses statistics to back him up.

That being said, no, Mike doesn't owe anybody an apology. I think in 1966-67 Brian still respected Mike as a lead singer, lyricist, front man, and someone who is was in touch with the Beach Boys' audience. Mike's problems with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics might've at the very least prompted Brian to think about the words. However, Brian might've already been experiencing some doubts, I don't know. And, I'm sure Mike wasn't the only one with some reservations about SMiLE, although he's the only one who will admit it. And that was Mike's sin. He spoke up. And nobody challenges Brian Wilson - even though Mike's main problem wasn't with Brian, but with Van Dyke's lyrics. Now, some might think that Mike or anybody shouldn't have been questioning anything concerning Brian Wilson at that time in his career, but that's for another thread...

[Tristero]

The perplexing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will. . .

Great post all around.  It does seem like he was locked into a particular vision of who the Beach Boys were and was resistant to "blankety-blank with the formula" at times.  I am no Mike Love apologist, but I see no reason for him to accept responsibility for with regards to Smile.  As a vocalist, he was well within his rights to question the lyrics he was singing, even though I personally disagree with his assessment of Van Dyke Parks' work.  At the end of the day, Mike did his job there and did it well.  Everyone who is familiar with the story knows that Brian pulled the plug on the project all by himself for a complicated set of reasons.  Even if all of the Beach Boys had been gung ho about Smile, I'm not convinced that it would have made a difference.

[drbeachboy]

The perplexing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will.

I always considered Mike to be an intelligent person, certainly sophisticated. Mike was always involved in a lot of other areas with a lot of different people, much more than the other Beach Boys. Mike was involved in other activities outside of The Beach Boys' world which helped him broaden his horizons.

But, unfortunately (?), this did not translate into shaping or advancing Mike's view of music as art. In reading several of Mike's interviews over the years, and several of them on "SMiLE", Mike's view of music as an art form is very simplistic and limited. Some of this is stubborness as it applies to The Beach Boys. Mike has his view on how the group is to be perceived and what musical direction they should pursue, and it goes beyond commercialism and "giving the people what they want". There is too much "this is who were are" and not enough "this is who we could be".

There have been times when I appreciated Mike's stance, and I certainly understand how he got there. To some extent, the experimental, "non-Beach Boyish" music nearly bankrupted the group. And, Mike can - and will - point out how the good old, fun, summer-ry, girl/boy music kept he group going over 52 years. Mike just doesn't budge enough on it, or consider other realms that could complement his vision of the band. I guess you could sat Mike doesn't equate "art" with the Beach Boys outside of that small window which he looks out of. And, as we know, he always uses statistics to back him up.

That being said, no, Mike doesn't owe anybody an apology. I think in 1966-67 Brian still respected Mike as a lead singer, lyricist, front man, and someone who is was in touch with the Beach Boys' audience. Mike's problems with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics might've at the very least prompted Brian to think about the words. However, Brian might've already been experiencing some doubts, I don't know. And, I'm sure Mike wasn't the only one with some reservations about SMiLE, although he's the only one who will admit it. And that was Mike's sin. He spoke up. And nobody challenges Brian Wilson - even though Mike's main problem wasn't with Brian, but with Van Dyke's lyrics. Now, some might think that Mike or anybody shouldn't have been questioning anything concerning Brian Wilson at that time in his career, but that's for another thread...

As has been stated, it really doesn't matter what Mike thought about Smile. Whether he had issues or not, he fully participated in the making of Smile. He did what was asked of him to do. Brian just could not put Smile together to his own satisfaction and he shelved it.

[filledeplage]

The perplexing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will.

I always considered Mike to be an intelligent person, certainly sophisticated. Mike was always involved in a lot of other areas with a lot of different people, much more than the other Beach Boys. Mike was involved in other activities outside of The Beach Boys' world which helped him broaden his horizons.

But, unfortunately (?), this did not translate into shaping or advancing Mike's view of music as art. In reading several of Mike's interviews over the years, and several of them on "SMiLE", Mike's view of music as an art form is very simplistic and limited. Some of this is stubborness as it applies to The Beach Boys. Mike has his view on how the group is to be perceived and what musical direction they should pursue, and it goes beyond commercialism and "giving the people what they want". There is too much "this is who were are" and not enough "this is who we could be".

There have been times when I appreciated Mike's stance, and I certainly understand how he got there. To some extent, the experimental, "non-Beach Boyish" music nearly bankrupted the group. And, Mike can - and will - point out how the good old, fun, summer-ry, girl/boy music kept he group going over 52 years. Mike just doesn't budge enough on it, or consider other realms that could complement his vision of the band. I guess you could sat Mike doesn't equate "art" with the Beach Boys outside of that small window which he looks out of. And, as we know, he always uses statistics to back him up.

That being said, no, Mike doesn't owe anybody an apology. I think in 1966-67 Brian still respected Mike as a lead singer, lyricist, front man, and someone who is was in touch with the Beach Boys' audience. Mike's problems with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics might've at the very least prompted Brian to think about the words. However, Brian might've already been experiencing some doubts, I don't know. And, I'm sure Mike wasn't the only one with some reservations about SMiLE, although he's the only one who will admit it. And that was Mike's sin. He spoke up. And nobody challenges Brian Wilson - even though Mike's main problem wasn't with Brian, but with Van Dyke's lyrics. Now, some might think that Mike or anybody shouldn't have been questioning anything concerning Brian Wilson at that time in his career, but that's for another thread...

As has been stated, it really doesn't matter what Mike thought about Smile. Whether he had issues or not, he fully participated in the making of Smile. He did what was asked of him to do. Brian just could not put Smile together to his own satisfaction and he shelved it.

Exactly.  More to do with the "scope of the work" than the "value judgments of the Band." Mike's (and the rest of the guys' vocals) are brilliant.  Mike did what he was asked. 

That speaks volumes about "good faith" at the very least.  Less enthusiasm would say something else. 

Hindsight shows the enormity of the project and perhaps the "computer age" visualization of what was really recorded gives better comprehension of the vision of the project. Mike talks about SMiLE in the google interview, and very favorably so. That is still on YouTube for viewing.   

[CenturyDeprived]

It's been interesting to read everybody's responses on the subject.

I agree that it is a tricky subject,  I just think it would be nice for ML to at least give BW an apology for not having been supportive enough to him sometimes throughout the years.  I know this is silly, because it's none of my business of course. These are 70-year-old men who aren't gonna change, and I'm not actually trying to facilitate a real apology. This is just thoughts that I have had about an ideal, if unlikely situation.

 And yes, I realize that Mike felt at the time, as well as probably feels now, that he was justified in feeling differently about Brian's vision. But it just seems that Mike doesn't, and never did, treat Brian as the emotionally fragile person that he was and is. It's like he thinks he's a rough and tough dude who can take anything. Well BW obviously is a strong guy, but he is fragile. If there were hurt feelings, and they're obviously were, it seems that people should really recognize their role in causing each other emotional pain.

It's funny though, because part of me thinks that some of, or maybe a great deal of Mike's behavior over the years which might be considered questionable could've been a passive aggressive response to having been shortchanged on credits at the time. I know these are guys from a different era who aren't exactly open with their feelings and down-to-earth about stuff that runs deep in their  family.

The thing is, at the Grammy Museum event for California Saga, Mike said something of the effect that he knows he has made some mistakes, and he knows what people think of them. So he must obviously realized that some of the things he has done over the years in relation to the band were ill-advised. He must feel this in his heart. Which is good, because in fact some of the things he did were ill-advised.  That was a rare moment of fessing up for his mistakes... And I only see that as having been a good thing, because it seemed to be getting  closer to a healing process which never really continued. My question of course becomes, what specific mistakes are those? I feel that if Mike had gone further with that type of response, it would have been a really great thing. And who knows, maybe in private there were more apologies about specific events. Hell, I would hope BW would apologize to Mike as well for some things he has done over the years.

I guess it just kills me to see these guys being unable to resolve their issues and I wish they finally could. There are fractures within my own family between some people, and I also just wish those people could stop being so bullheaded and fess up to the crap they have done, which I think would go along way to healing things too. Sucks that some people are just plain unable to. Babbling about it on a message board isn't going to make that happen but this is just conversation of course.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Who on this planet knows what "columnated ruins domino" actually means.

Brian explained the lyrics at the time. This line means something about the established institutions of society crumbling.

IIRC that lyric meaning was posed to Parks and his response was that he didn't know.

Park's standard response since he walked off the project. It could be they mean nothing. Or it could be his feelings are still hurt by having his lyrics questioned.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The perplexing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will.

I always considered Mike to be an intelligent person, certainly sophisticated. Mike was always involved in a lot of other areas with a lot of different people, much more than the other Beach Boys. Mike was involved in other activities outside of The Beach Boys' world which helped him broaden his horizons.

But, unfortunately (?), this did not translate into shaping or advancing Mike's view of music as art. In reading several of Mike's interviews over the years, and several of them on "SMiLE", Mike's view of music as an art form is very simplistic and limited. Some of this is stubborness as it applies to The Beach Boys. Mike has his view on how the group is to be perceived and what musical direction they should pursue, and it goes beyond commercialism and "giving the people what they want". There is too much "this is who were are" and not enough "this is who we could be".

There have been times when I appreciated Mike's stance, and I certainly understand how he got there. To some extent, the experimental, "non-Beach Boyish" music nearly bankrupted the group. And, Mike can - and will - point out how the good old, fun, summer-ry, girl/boy music kept he group going over 52 years. Mike just doesn't budge enough on it, or consider other realms that could complement his vision of the band. I guess you could sat Mike doesn't equate "art" with the Beach Boys outside of that small window which he looks out of. And, as we know, he always uses statistics to back him up.

That being said, no, Mike doesn't owe anybody an apology. I think in 1966-67 Brian still respected Mike as a lead singer, lyricist, front man, and someone who is was in touch with the Beach Boys' audience. Mike's problems with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics might've at the very least prompted Brian to think about the words. However, Brian might've already been experiencing some doubts, I don't know. And, I'm sure Mike wasn't the only one with some reservations about SMiLE, although he's the only one who will admit it. And that was Mike's sin. He spoke up. And nobody challenges Brian Wilson - even though Mike's main problem wasn't with Brian, but with Van Dyke's lyrics. Now, some might think that Mike or anybody shouldn't have been questioning anything concerning Brian Wilson at that time in his career, but that's for another thread...

As has been stated, it really doesn't matter what Mike thought about Smile.

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

[drbeachboy]

It's been interesting to read everybody's responses on the subject.

I agree that it is a tricky subject,  I just think it would be nice for ML to at least give BW an apology for not having been supportive enough to him sometimes throughout the years.  I know this is silly, because it's none of my business of course. These are 70-year-old men who aren't gonna change, and I'm not actually trying to facilitate a real apology. This is just thoughts that I have had about an ideal, if unlikely situation.

 And yes, I realize that Mike felt at the time, as well as probably feels now, that he was justified in feeling differently about Brian's vision. But it just seems that Mike doesn't, and never did, treat Brian as the emotionally fragile person that he was and is. It's like he thinks he's a rough and tough dude who can take anything. Well BW obviously is a strong guy, but he is fragile. If there were hurt feelings, and they're obviously were, it seems that people should really recognize their role in causing each other emotional pain.

It's funny though, because part of me thinks that some of, or maybe a great deal of Mike's behavior over the years which might be considered questionable could've been a passive aggressive response to having been shortchanged on credits at the time. I know these are guys from a different era who aren't exactly open with their feelings and down-to-earth about stuff that runs deep in their  family.

The thing is, at the Grammy Museum event for California Saga, Mike said something of the effect that he knows he has made some mistakes, and he knows what people think of them. So he must obviously realized that some of the things he has done over the years in relation to the band were ill-advised. He must feel this in his heart. Which is good, because in fact some of the things he did were ill-advised.  That was a rare moment of fessing up for his mistakes... And I only see that as having been a good thing, because it seemed to be getting  closer to a healing process which never really continued. My question of course becomes, what specific mistakes are those? I feel that if Mike had gone further with that type of response, it would have been a really great thing. And who knows, maybe in private there were more apologies about specific events. Hell, I would hope BW would apologize to Mike as well for some things he has done over the years.

I guess it just kills me to see these guys being unable to resolve their issues and I wish they finally could. There are fractures within my own family between some people, and I also just wish those people could stop being so bullheaded and fess up to the crap they have done, which I think would go along way to healing things too. Sucks that some people are just plain unable to. Babbling about it on a message board isn't going to make that happen but this is just conversation of course.

Sounds to me like you started this thread so everyone would rip Mike to shreds. Didn't happen, because as stated, it didn't matter what anyone thought about Smile. Every Beach Boy participated and did what was asked of them to get it completed. Again, you know all the pieces involved here. Smile was like Humpty Dumty, it was in so mamy pieces that it couldn't be put together again. Look how long it took Linett & Boyd to do it digitally, let alone how long it would have taken Brian to do it manually. To me, it makes sense that it was shelved when it was.

[Cam Mott]

Mike has always had praise for SMiLE, even in 1966/67. He wasn't a huge fan of the lyrics [neither was Brian], he asked for an explanation of one lyric he was to sing, didn't get one, sang it anyway.

I'm always so argumentative. Anyway. I can't see where assembly would have stopped anything. Brian, Taylor, Britz, musician always say he came to the studio prepared. He knew what everything was and how it went to together and he called it out and labeled it as such when he got to the studio. I just can not see Brian recording this stuff without knowing how it went together and how he would technically achieve it. I believe it wasn't not knowing how or what to do but just plain that he didn't feel it when he did have it and he felt it less and less as he had it more and more.

[drbeachboy]

The perplexing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will.

I always considered Mike to be an intelligent person, certainly sophisticated. Mike was always involved in a lot of other areas with a lot of different people, much more than the other Beach Boys. Mike was involved in other activities outside of The Beach Boys' world which helped him broaden his horizons.

But, unfortunately (?), this did not translate into shaping or advancing Mike's view of music as art. In reading several of Mike's interviews over the years, and several of them on "SMiLE", Mike's view of music as an art form is very simplistic and limited. Some of this is stubborness as it applies to The Beach Boys. Mike has his view on how the group is to be perceived and what musical direction they should pursue, and it goes beyond commercialism and "giving the people what they want". There is too much "this is who were are" and not enough "this is who we could be".

There have been times when I appreciated Mike's stance, and I certainly understand how he got there. To some extent, the experimental, "non-Beach Boyish" music nearly bankrupted the group. And, Mike can - and will - point out how the good old, fun, summer-ry, girl/boy music kept he group going over 52 years. Mike just doesn't budge enough on it, or consider other realms that could complement his vision of the band. I guess you could sat Mike doesn't equate "art" with the Beach Boys outside of that small window which he looks out of. And, as we know, he always uses statistics to back him up.

That being said, no, Mike doesn't owe anybody an apology. I think in 1966-67 Brian still respected Mike as a lead singer, lyricist, front man, and someone who is was in touch with the Beach Boys' audience. Mike's problems with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics might've at the very least prompted Brian to think about the words. However, Brian might've already been experiencing some doubts, I don't know. And, I'm sure Mike wasn't the only one with some reservations about SMiLE, although he's the only one who will admit it. And that was Mike's sin. He spoke up. And nobody challenges Brian Wilson - even though Mike's main problem wasn't with Brian, but with Van Dyke's lyrics. Now, some might think that Mike or anybody shouldn't have been questioning anything concerning Brian Wilson at that time in his career, but that's for another thread...

As has been stated, it really doesn't matter what Mike thought about Smile.

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

Mike has stated over & over that he loved the music. I doubt Brian felt all that threatened by Mike's issue with the lyrics, especially after he went in and sang them beautifully. Brian's psyche was not Mike's issue. Back then, I doubt they really knew how fragile he was starting to become. It would be years before anyone fully understood all of Brian's issues. I've seen nothing to suggest that Brian was none other than Commander in Chief in the studio.

[Cam Mott]

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

I think he respected people's opinions but in the studio if they didn't serve his already thought out plan he ignored opinions. You hear it on the tapes. Somebody will have an opinion or suggestion, he will listen, he might even try it, he might accept it, but if it isn't in his zone he will dismiss it out of hand. He only did what he wanted, so Mike nor any of the Boys, or Capitol, influenced Brian to do anything he didn't want. Jimmy Lockert confirmed this to me.

[filledeplage]

Who on this planet knows what "columnated ruins domino" actually means.

Brian explained the lyrics at the time. This line means something about the established institutions of society crumbling.

IIRC that lyric meaning was posed to Parks and his response was that he didn't know.

Park's standard response since he walked off the project. It could be they mean nothing. Or it could be his feelings are still hurt by having his lyrics questioned.

Parks is a public person, whether as a child actor, or musician or lyricist. And a pretty smart dude. I respect that.  But, even he knows, that when anyone who works in the public arena, whether as a politician, or actor or musician, you are subject to critics and it is part of the job. If you don't have a thick skin, working under the public microscope is not a good fit.  Challenged? You bet they merited a challenge.  It was a 180 degree turn for a band, who had been around for 7 years, which is a long "shelf life" for a rock band, as many don't last more than a quick blaze of glory and go on to fizzle out.

There was an emerging growth which was indicated with Warmth of the Sun, or Please Let Me Wonder, or the other more introspective work.  And it went from varied subject matter such as surf/glrls/school/cars to personal reflective.  Then to historical epic.  I think of the Band as the "laborers in the vineyard."  From that vantage point, I can see their perspective.  

And people are quick to forget that in this vortex of time and touring was the "main voice" of Carl facing jail.  Those are difficult working conditions, at best, for all of those band members, jet lagged and earning cred in Europe, while the US wondered what was up with this album.  Europe had the luxury of enjoying the artfulness while the US youth (males, anyway) had the same sword of Carl overhead.  Context, is key, here.  

[schiaffino]

The perplexing thing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will.

I always considered Mike to be an intelligent person, certainly sophisticated. Mike was always involved in a lot of other areas with a lot of different people, much more than the other Beach Boys. Mike was involved in other activities outside of The Beach Boys' world which helped him broaden his horizons.

But, unfortunately (?), this did not translate into shaping or advancing Mike's view of music as art. In reading several of Mike's interviews over the years, and several of them on SMiLE, Mike's view of music as an art form is very simplistic and limited. Some of this is stubborness as it applies to The Beach Boys. Mike has his view on how the group is to be perceived and what musical direction they should pursue, and it goes beyond commercialism and "giving the people what they want". There is too much "this is who were are" and not enough "this is who we could be".

There have been times when I appreciated Mike's stance, and I certainly understand how he got there. To some extent, the experimental, "non-Beach Boyish" music nearly bankrupted the group. And, Mike can - and will - point out how the good old, fun, summer-ry, girl/boy music kept the group going over 52 years. Mike just doesn't budge enough on it, or consider other realms that could complement his vision of the band. I guess you could say Mike doesn't equate "art" with the Beach Boys outside of that small window which he looks out of. And, as we know, he always uses statistics to back him up.

That being said, no, Mike doesn't owe anybody an apology. I think in 1966-67 Brian still respected Mike as a lead singer, lyricist, front man, and someone who is was in touch with the Beach Boys' audience. Mike's problems with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics might've at the very least prompted Brian to think about the words. However, Brian might've already been experiencing some doubts, I don't know. And, I'm sure Mike wasn't the only one with some reservations about SMiLE, although he's the only one who will admit it. And that was Mike's sin. He spoke up. And nobody challenges Brian Wilson - even though Mike's main problem wasn't with Brian, but with Van Dyke's lyrics. Now, some might think that Mike or anybody shouldn't have been questioning anything concerning Brian Wilson at that time in his career, but that's for another thread...

One of the best analysis I've read so far in this board. Thank you, Sheriff

[Sheriff John Stone]

The perplexing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will.

I always considered Mike to be an intelligent person, certainly sophisticated. Mike was always involved in a lot of other areas with a lot of different people, much more than the other Beach Boys. Mike was involved in other activities outside of The Beach Boys' world which helped him broaden his horizons.

But, unfortunately (?), this did not translate into shaping or advancing Mike's view of music as art. In reading several of Mike's interviews over the years, and several of them on "SMiLE", Mike's view of music as an art form is very simplistic and limited. Some of this is stubborness as it applies to The Beach Boys. Mike has his view on how the group is to be perceived and what musical direction they should pursue, and it goes beyond commercialism and "giving the people what they want". There is too much "this is who were are" and not enough "this is who we could be".

There have been times when I appreciated Mike's stance, and I certainly understand how he got there. To some extent, the experimental, "non-Beach Boyish" music nearly bankrupted the group. And, Mike can - and will - point out how the good old, fun, summer-ry, girl/boy music kept he group going over 52 years. Mike just doesn't budge enough on it, or consider other realms that could complement his vision of the band. I guess you could sat Mike doesn't equate "art" with the Beach Boys outside of that small window which he looks out of. And, as we know, he always uses statistics to back him up.

That being said, no, Mike doesn't owe anybody an apology. I think in 1966-67 Brian still respected Mike as a lead singer, lyricist, front man, and someone who is was in touch with the Beach Boys' audience. Mike's problems with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics might've at the very least prompted Brian to think about the words. However, Brian might've already been experiencing some doubts, I don't know. And, I'm sure Mike wasn't the only one with some reservations about SMiLE, although he's the only one who will admit it. And that was Mike's sin. He spoke up. And nobody challenges Brian Wilson - even though Mike's main problem wasn't with Brian, but with Van Dyke's lyrics. Now, some might think that Mike or anybody shouldn't have been questioning anything concerning Brian Wilson at that time in his career, but that's for another thread...

As has been stated, it really doesn't matter what Mike thought about Smile.

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

Mike has stated over & over that he loved the music. I doubt Brian felt all that threatened by Mike's issue with the lyrics, especially after he went in and sang them beautifully. Brian's psyche was not Mike's issue. Back then, I doubt they really knew how fragile he was starting to become. It would be years before anyone fully understood all of Brian's issues. I've seen nothing to suggest that Brian was none other than Commander in Chief in the studio.

Mike has said some good things about the music many years after the fact. Was he saying those same things at the time in question - 1966-67? Like I said, based on what has been said and more importantly, what hasn't been said over the ensuing 46 years, it's hard to tell how much Mike's "issues" with the lyrics affected BRIAN'S EVOLVING OPINION OF THE LYRICS AND SMiLE. Didn't Van Dyke Parks say in some interviews (not that I trust every word HE says either) that Brian eventually started to question some SMiLE "things", which contributed to Parks' leaving. I do know that Brian has repeatedly said that he didn't think the public was ready or accepting of SMiLE at that particular time. Do you not think that Mike's (and other dissenting) opinions didn't play ANY part in Brian feeling that way? Brian could be as stubborn as anybody, but I also read that he was very influenced by what others thought about his music. There are several examples of him not wanting to release certain songs because he was unsure about them or their acceptance by the public.

[Sheriff John Stone]

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

I think he respected people's opinions but in the studio if they didn't serve his already thought out plan he ignored opinions. You hear it on the tapes. Somebody will have an opinion or suggestion, he will listen, he might even try it, he might accept it, but if it isn't in his zone he will dismiss it out of hand. He only did what he wanted, so Mike nor any of the Boys, or Capitol, influenced Brian to do anything he didn't want. Jimmy Lockert confirmed this to me.

I agree with you regarding Brian ignoring opinions and dismissing them and sometimes accepting them. But that is why I am making my point. Up to that point - 1966-67 - Brian did that, he did what he wanted, regardless of others. But with scrapping SMiLE, was he NOW listening to others, including Mike, and being influenced by their opinions? And we know there were others who weren't totally on board. Weren't some of the other Beach Boys, while not confronting Brian, having some of their own doubts? I read that Murry was making comments. How many others in the Beach Boys' circle were thinking or saying WTF? Ultimately Brian had his doubts, too. Did those doubts come completely from Brian's heart and soul, or were those doubts a product of who was talking and what were they saying? In my opinion, I think it is a no-brainer that Brian was having serious doubts and because of his need for approval (and many people have said that Brian needed approval), Brian was influenced by the people talking, at least to some degree.