Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[Andrew G. Doe]

If I may be permitted to answer the topic of this thread with one all-embracing yet facile comment, the answer has to be "no - because he has no need to take responsibility for something he didn't do".

Sorted. 

[Cam Mott]

Sorted. 

I only wish.  I forgot the "wish". Oldtimer disease.

[felipe]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

[Moon Dawg]

  Smile was the most ambitious recording project in pop history. Brian was, of course, one of the most gifted individuals in the industry, but one would have to conclude he got in over his head. Was Mike as supportive as he could have been? Probably not, but this does not make Mike responsible for the demise of the project. Mike had just written the words to the band's biggest hit and was essentially pushed out of the creative picture in favor of yet another "outsider." Meanwhile Brian's emotional problems were clearly exacerbated by drug use.

 Forgive me for (re)stating the obvious, but this stuff never goes away. Mike is too convenient a villain, and the truth is never as simple as we'd like it to be. The angle I would like to hear more of is Carl's support, or lack of support, for the project. Obviously he played a key role in getting "Surf's Up" released in 1971, but over the years you rarely heard Carl speak of the Smile music with the reverence he never lost for Pet Sounds.

  IMO the only Beach Boy who was 100% behind Brian re Smile was Dennis. This doesn't make Mike or the others bad guys. It was a huge gamble, and their leader clearly showed signs of serious strain.

[CenturyDeprived]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

That's an interesting theory about "Wonderful", but while we do know that latter-day Mike has talked about liking the song, we don't really know if there was an isolated bubble of support for that song at the time from Mike. Maybe there was support, but maybe "support" simply meant not having lyrics questioned. While I agree that Brian's own perfectionism was certainly a big factor, I'm just saying that I don't take Mike's current feelings on that song as evidence of anything, one way or another.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

That's an interesting theory about "Wonderful", but while we do know that latter-day Mike has talked about liking the song, we don't really know if there was an isolated bubble of support for that song at the time from Mike. Maybe there was support, but maybe "support" simply meant not having lyrics questioned. While I agree that Brian's own perfectionism was certainly a big factor, I'm just saying that I don't take Mike's current feelings on that song as evidence of anything, one way or another.

Why would you refuse to take one's latter day admiration of a song as even a shred of evidence that this same person might have indeed liked the song then?

A bit silly, right?

All we know is that Mike asked what a couple lines meant for an entirely different song: not what ALL the lyrics meant to every song.

[CenturyDeprived]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

That's an interesting theory about "Wonderful", but while we do know that latter-day Mike has talked about liking the song, we don't really know if there was an isolated bubble of support for that song at the time from Mike. Maybe there was support, but maybe "support" simply meant not having lyrics questioned. While I agree that Brian's own perfectionism was certainly a big factor, I'm just saying that I don't take Mike's current feelings on that song as evidence of anything, one way or another.

Why would you refuse to take one's latter day admiration of a song as even a shred of evidence that this same person might have indeed liked the song then?

A bit silly, right?

All we know is that Mike asked what a couple lines meant for an entirely different song: not what ALL the lyrics meant to every song.

I honestly think that if Mike had really liked the song at the time, and was *supportive* of the song at the time, that he'd not be shy of mentioning that fact years later, don't you think? Unless I've missed something where he claimed that was the case, or where BW, VDP, or anyone mentions that was the case at the time.

How do I define "supportive"? It's tough to quantify, but I'd say openly enthusiastic, verbalizing feelings in a positive way, etc. during the creation of the song, in a way that was beneficial toward the project. Brian would be the one to make that call, of course. I think, specifically, that Brian wanted to feel that he was sonically headed in the right direction, and that people very specifically believed in him - that would have been the support that he'd have wanted. Hell, he dropped hints all throughout Pet Sounds to get people in his life (and band, methinks) to let them know how *much* he valued and truly needed that support. Who knows, maybe Mike did some of those things for Wonderful at the time. But I also think that if such had happened (of any noteworthy value) that BW himself too would remember that and would have mentioned that at some point in the intervening years. Meaningful support (as defined by the recipient of said support) would in all likelihood have stood out. Just IMO.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

That's an interesting theory about "Wonderful", but while we do know that latter-day Mike has talked about liking the song, we don't really know if there was an isolated bubble of support for that song at the time from Mike. Maybe there was support, but maybe "support" simply meant not having lyrics questioned. While I agree that Brian's own perfectionism was certainly a big factor, I'm just saying that I don't take Mike's current feelings on that song as evidence of anything, one way or another.

Why would you refuse to take one's latter day admiration of a song as even a shred of evidence that this same person might have indeed liked the song then?

A bit silly, right?

All we know is that Mike asked what a couple lines meant for an entirely different song: not what ALL the lyrics meant to every song.

I honestly think that if Mike had really liked the song at the time, and was *supportive* of the song at the time, that he'd not be shy of mentioning that fact years later, don't you think? Unless I've missed something where he claimed that was the case, or where BW, VDP, or anyone mentions that was the case at the time.

How do I define "supportive"? It's tough to quantify, but I'd say openly enthusiastic, verbalizing feelings in a positive way, etc. during the creation of the song, in a way that was beneficial toward the project. Brian would be the one to make that call, of course. I think, specifically, that Brian wanted to feel that he was sonically headed in the right direction, and that people very specifically believed in him - that would have been the support that he'd have wanted. Hell, he dropped hints all throughout Pet Sounds to get people in his life (and band, methinks) to let them know how *much* he valued and truly needed that support. Who knows, maybe Mike did some of those things for Wonderful at the time. But I also think that if such had happened (of any noteworthy value) that BW himself too would remember that and would have mentioned that at some point in the intervening years. Meaningful support (as defined by the recipient of said support) would in all likelihood have stood out. Just IMO.

Well put, CD, even though I disagree in part. And let's not forget people's personal taste can simply change over 50 years as well....

We do know The Beach Boys performed Wonderful in concert in the early 70's with Mike introducing it as a song they did from an album called SMILE which should be out sometime soon, blah blah.....

I would strongly consider this fact evidence that Mike and the rest of The Beach Boys had nothing but appreciation for the song.... I mean, that's pretty strong evidence on it's own.

Once again, you're reading a great deal of personal inflection into your imaginations of things that might or might not have gone on behind closed doors. But when you look at what we do know: there is no record of Mike having any trouble with Brian regarding this particular song ..... ever ..... Mike has expressed appreciation for it in recent years, and himself and The Beach Boys performed the song with tremendous skill back in 72 or whatever and performed the song in an arrangement (the whole "Bill" part excluded) resembling it's SMILE incarnation much more than it's Smiley counterpart ...... Not exactly evidence that Mike has some problem with the song or put up some sort of battle against it in 67.

And to suppose the Beach Boys didn't believe in Brian flies in the face of just about everything we know about the group as a whole! .... My guess, is they put all the faith in the world in him and supported him 100% but would then get frustrated with this or that, grumble, and then go back to supporting him and then back to grumbling: much like any band ..... Let's not forget that Brian was in a leadership position. If he was seen to be slipping from this position when so much was riding on the group (did VDP or Brian's friends that we keep hearing about have anything to lose, unlike Brian, Carl, Dennis, Al, Mike, Bruce, if things went south) then this would doubtlessly lead to a certain amount of panic/tension .... and in moments of panic and tension shite happens! To try and assign blame here, even on Brian, strikes me as quite cruel.

[CenturyDeprived]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

That's an interesting theory about "Wonderful", but while we do know that latter-day Mike has talked about liking the song, we don't really know if there was an isolated bubble of support for that song at the time from Mike. Maybe there was support, but maybe "support" simply meant not having lyrics questioned. While I agree that Brian's own perfectionism was certainly a big factor, I'm just saying that I don't take Mike's current feelings on that song as evidence of anything, one way or another.

Why would you refuse to take one's latter day admiration of a song as even a shred of evidence that this same person might have indeed liked the song then?

A bit silly, right?

All we know is that Mike asked what a couple lines meant for an entirely different song: not what ALL the lyrics meant to every song.

I honestly think that if Mike had really liked the song at the time, and was *supportive* of the song at the time, that he'd not be shy of mentioning that fact years later, don't you think? Unless I've missed something where he claimed that was the case, or where BW, VDP, or anyone mentions that was the case at the time.

How do I define "supportive"? It's tough to quantify, but I'd say openly enthusiastic, verbalizing feelings in a positive way, etc. during the creation of the song, in a way that was beneficial toward the project. Brian would be the one to make that call, of course. I think, specifically, that Brian wanted to feel that he was sonically headed in the right direction, and that people very specifically believed in him - that would have been the support that he'd have wanted. Hell, he dropped hints all throughout Pet Sounds to get people in his life (and band, methinks) to let them know how *much* he valued and truly needed that support. Who knows, maybe Mike did some of those things for Wonderful at the time. But I also think that if such had happened (of any noteworthy value) that BW himself too would remember that and would have mentioned that at some point in the intervening years. Meaningful support (as defined by the recipient of said support) would in all likelihood have stood out. Just IMO.

Well put, CD, even though I disagree in part. And let's not forget people's personal taste can simply change over 50 years as well....

We do know The Beach Boys performed Wonderful in concert in the early 70's with Mike introducing it as a song they did from an album called SMILE which should be out sometime soon, blah blah.....

I would strongly consider this fact evidence that Mike and the rest of The Beach Boys had nothing but appreciation for the song.... I mean, that's pretty strong evidence on it's own.

Once again, you're reading a great deal of personal inflection into your imaginations of things that might or might not have gone on behind closed doors. But when you look at what we do know: there is no record of Mike having any trouble with Brian regarding this particular song ..... ever ..... Mike has expressed appreciation for it in recent years, and himself and The Beach Boys performed the song with tremendous skill back in 72 or whatever and performed the song in an arrangement (the whole "Bill" part excluded) resembling it's SMILE incarnation much more than it's Smiley counterpart ...... Not exactly evidence that Mike has some problem with the song or put up some sort of battle against it in 67.

And to suppose the Beach Boys didn't believe in Brian flies in the face of just about everything we know about the group as a whole! .... My guess, is they put all the faith in the world in him and supported him 100% but would then get frustrated with this or that, grumble, and then go back to supporting him and then back to grumbling: much like any band ..... Let's not forget that Brian was in a leadership position. If he was seen to be slipping from this position when so much was riding on the group (was VDP or Brian's friends that we keep hearing about going to take any sort of a hit if things went south?) then this would doubtlessly lead to a certain amount of panic/tension .... and in moments of panic and tension shite happens! To try and assign blame here, even on Brian, strikes me as quite cruel.

Yeah, you may have a point there... but at the same time, I look at lots of the BBs actions/motivations in the several years post-SMiLE as being an effort to both salvage what they could of the project and its "lore" (even in a live setting), as well as (mainly Mike) privately realizing that maybe some of the things he might have criticized or had doubts about earlier might in fact have been not worthy of that doubt in hindsight. I dunno. I think it's a combination of this, and what you pointed out in your post.

But the ultimate thing to realize is: even if Mike in his mind thought that Wonderful was totally kick-ass and really a step in the right direction at the time of SMiLE, I doubt that he'd have ever communicated the positivity in a way that Brian would have wanted to hear it - because at heart, Mike didn't seem to approve of the whole methods/ways that the album was being recorded (particularly involving drugs, but one could also argue the jealously thing too was a factor - I don't think this factor should be dismissed in the discussion). So that support which Brian wanted for his new (and recently proven) way of recording (support which, granted, may have been desired to an "unreasonable" degree of unconditionality, but at the same time IMO was deserved to that degree if for no other reason than his utterly ridiculous track record) was probably never gonna happen because there was just too much simultaneous finger wagging aimed at the method to his madness.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

That's an interesting theory about "Wonderful", but while we do know that latter-day Mike has talked about liking the song, we don't really know if there was an isolated bubble of support for that song at the time from Mike. Maybe there was support, but maybe "support" simply meant not having lyrics questioned. While I agree that Brian's own perfectionism was certainly a big factor, I'm just saying that I don't take Mike's current feelings on that song as evidence of anything, one way or another.

Why would you refuse to take one's latter day admiration of a song as even a shred of evidence that this same person might have indeed liked the song then?

A bit silly, right?

All we know is that Mike asked what a couple lines meant for an entirely different song: not what ALL the lyrics meant to every song.

I honestly think that if Mike had really liked the song at the time, and was *supportive* of the song at the time, that he'd not be shy of mentioning that fact years later, don't you think? Unless I've missed something where he claimed that was the case, or where BW, VDP, or anyone mentions that was the case at the time.

How do I define "supportive"? It's tough to quantify, but I'd say openly enthusiastic, verbalizing feelings in a positive way, etc. during the creation of the song, in a way that was beneficial toward the project. Brian would be the one to make that call, of course. I think, specifically, that Brian wanted to feel that he was sonically headed in the right direction, and that people very specifically believed in him - that would have been the support that he'd have wanted. Hell, he dropped hints all throughout Pet Sounds to get people in his life (and band, methinks) to let them know how *much* he valued and truly needed that support. Who knows, maybe Mike did some of those things for Wonderful at the time. But I also think that if such had happened (of any noteworthy value) that BW himself too would remember that and would have mentioned that at some point in the intervening years. Meaningful support (as defined by the recipient of said support) would in all likelihood have stood out. Just IMO.

Well put, CD, even though I disagree in part. And let's not forget people's personal taste can simply change over 50 years as well....

We do know The Beach Boys performed Wonderful in concert in the early 70's with Mike introducing it as a song they did from an album called SMILE which should be out sometime soon, blah blah.....

I would strongly consider this fact evidence that Mike and the rest of The Beach Boys had nothing but appreciation for the song.... I mean, that's pretty strong evidence on it's own.

Once again, you're reading a great deal of personal inflection into your imaginations of things that might or might not have gone on behind closed doors. But when you look at what we do know: there is no record of Mike having any trouble with Brian regarding this particular song ..... ever ..... Mike has expressed appreciation for it in recent years, and himself and The Beach Boys performed the song with tremendous skill back in 72 or whatever and performed the song in an arrangement (the whole "Bill" part excluded) resembling it's SMILE incarnation much more than it's Smiley counterpart ...... Not exactly evidence that Mike has some problem with the song or put up some sort of battle against it in 67.

And to suppose the Beach Boys didn't believe in Brian flies in the face of just about everything we know about the group as a whole! .... My guess, is they put all the faith in the world in him and supported him 100% but would then get frustrated with this or that, grumble, and then go back to supporting him and then back to grumbling: much like any band ..... Let's not forget that Brian was in a leadership position. If he was seen to be slipping from this position when so much was riding on the group (was VDP or Brian's friends that we keep hearing about going to take any sort of a hit if things went south?) then this would doubtlessly lead to a certain amount of panic/tension .... and in moments of panic and tension shite happens! To try and assign blame here, even on Brian, strikes me as quite cruel.

Yeah, you may have a point there... but at the same time, I look at lots of the BBs actions/motivations in the several years post-SMiLE as being an effort to both salvage what they could of the project and its "lore" (even in a live setting), as well as (mainly Mike) privately realizing that maybe some of the things he might have criticized or had doubts about earlier might in fact have been not worthy of that doubt in hindsight. I dunno. I think it's a combination of this, and what you pointed out in your post.

But the ultimate thing to realize is: even if Mike in his mind thought that Wonderful was totally kick-ass and really a step in the right direction at the time of SMiLE, I doubt that he'd have ever communicated the positivity in a way that Brian would have wanted to hear it - because at heart, Mike didn't seem to approve of the whole methods/ways that the album was being recorded (particularly involving drugs, but one could also argue the jealously thing too). So that support which Brian wanted for his new (and recently proven) way of recording (support which, granted, may have been desired to an "unreasonable" degree of unconditionality, but at the same time IMO was deserved to that degree if for no other reason than his utterly ridiculous track record) was probably never gonna happen because there was just too much simultaneous finger wagging aimed at the method to his madness.

"In his heart"?

You're really losing sight here between an individual not yourself named Mike Love and your imaginary idea of the inner-workings of his mind and soul.

[CenturyDeprived]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

That's an interesting theory about "Wonderful", but while we do know that latter-day Mike has talked about liking the song, we don't really know if there was an isolated bubble of support for that song at the time from Mike. Maybe there was support, but maybe "support" simply meant not having lyrics questioned. While I agree that Brian's own perfectionism was certainly a big factor, I'm just saying that I don't take Mike's current feelings on that song as evidence of anything, one way or another.

Why would you refuse to take one's latter day admiration of a song as even a shred of evidence that this same person might have indeed liked the song then?

A bit silly, right?

All we know is that Mike asked what a couple lines meant for an entirely different song: not what ALL the lyrics meant to every song.

I honestly think that if Mike had really liked the song at the time, and was *supportive* of the song at the time, that he'd not be shy of mentioning that fact years later, don't you think? Unless I've missed something where he claimed that was the case, or where BW, VDP, or anyone mentions that was the case at the time.

How do I define "supportive"? It's tough to quantify, but I'd say openly enthusiastic, verbalizing feelings in a positive way, etc. during the creation of the song, in a way that was beneficial toward the project. Brian would be the one to make that call, of course. I think, specifically, that Brian wanted to feel that he was sonically headed in the right direction, and that people very specifically believed in him - that would have been the support that he'd have wanted. Hell, he dropped hints all throughout Pet Sounds to get people in his life (and band, methinks) to let them know how *much* he valued and truly needed that support. Who knows, maybe Mike did some of those things for Wonderful at the time. But I also think that if such had happened (of any noteworthy value) that BW himself too would remember that and would have mentioned that at some point in the intervening years. Meaningful support (as defined by the recipient of said support) would in all likelihood have stood out. Just IMO.

Well put, CD, even though I disagree in part. And let's not forget people's personal taste can simply change over 50 years as well....

We do know The Beach Boys performed Wonderful in concert in the early 70's with Mike introducing it as a song they did from an album called SMILE which should be out sometime soon, blah blah.....

I would strongly consider this fact evidence that Mike and the rest of The Beach Boys had nothing but appreciation for the song.... I mean, that's pretty strong evidence on it's own.

Once again, you're reading a great deal of personal inflection into your imaginations of things that might or might not have gone on behind closed doors. But when you look at what we do know: there is no record of Mike having any trouble with Brian regarding this particular song ..... ever ..... Mike has expressed appreciation for it in recent years, and himself and The Beach Boys performed the song with tremendous skill back in 72 or whatever and performed the song in an arrangement (the whole "Bill" part excluded) resembling it's SMILE incarnation much more than it's Smiley counterpart ...... Not exactly evidence that Mike has some problem with the song or put up some sort of battle against it in 67.

And to suppose the Beach Boys didn't believe in Brian flies in the face of just about everything we know about the group as a whole! .... My guess, is they put all the faith in the world in him and supported him 100% but would then get frustrated with this or that, grumble, and then go back to supporting him and then back to grumbling: much like any band ..... Let's not forget that Brian was in a leadership position. If he was seen to be slipping from this position when so much was riding on the group (was VDP or Brian's friends that we keep hearing about going to take any sort of a hit if things went south?) then this would doubtlessly lead to a certain amount of panic/tension .... and in moments of panic and tension shite happens! To try and assign blame here, even on Brian, strikes me as quite cruel.

Yeah, you may have a point there... but at the same time, I look at lots of the BBs actions/motivations in the several years post-SMiLE as being an effort to both salvage what they could of the project and its "lore" (even in a live setting), as well as (mainly Mike) privately realizing that maybe some of the things he might have criticized or had doubts about earlier might in fact have been not worthy of that doubt in hindsight. I dunno. I think it's a combination of this, and what you pointed out in your post.

But the ultimate thing to realize is: even if Mike in his mind thought that Wonderful was totally kick-ass and really a step in the right direction at the time of SMiLE, I doubt that he'd have ever communicated the positivity in a way that Brian would have wanted to hear it - because at heart, Mike didn't seem to approve of the whole methods/ways that the album was being recorded (particularly involving drugs, but one could also argue the jealously thing too). So that support which Brian wanted for his new (and recently proven) way of recording (support which, granted, may have been desired to an "unreasonable" degree of unconditionality, but at the same time IMO was deserved to that degree if for no other reason than his utterly ridiculous track record) was probably never gonna happen because there was just too much simultaneous finger wagging aimed at the method to his madness.

"In his heart"?

You're really losing sight here between an individual not yourself named Mike Love and your imaginary idea of the inner-workings of his mind and soul.

Well, actually, I said "at heart", but we're splitting hairs here

I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Mike didn't like the methods of how SMiLE music was being made, generally speaking. I'm talking about not the music itself, just the methods. The methods included drugs, various experimentation (lots of it), a cowriter not named Mike Love, etc. This is IMO based on what I've read - I think to say otherwise flies in the face of lots of opposing evidence. Can I understand why he didn't exactly love these methods? Yeah, more or less.  All of these were things that ran against the "proven" way of making hits with his cousin that Mike had grown to love, desire, and expect. Plus with the modular technique - it was a whole new world, so yeah - to suggest he *didn't* have issues (and likely often times major issues) with the methods seems to border on an absurd assumption, at least in my mind. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

That's an interesting theory about "Wonderful", but while we do know that latter-day Mike has talked about liking the song, we don't really know if there was an isolated bubble of support for that song at the time from Mike. Maybe there was support, but maybe "support" simply meant not having lyrics questioned. While I agree that Brian's own perfectionism was certainly a big factor, I'm just saying that I don't take Mike's current feelings on that song as evidence of anything, one way or another.

Why would you refuse to take one's latter day admiration of a song as even a shred of evidence that this same person might have indeed liked the song then?

A bit silly, right?

All we know is that Mike asked what a couple lines meant for an entirely different song: not what ALL the lyrics meant to every song.

I honestly think that if Mike had really liked the song at the time, and was *supportive* of the song at the time, that he'd not be shy of mentioning that fact years later, don't you think? Unless I've missed something where he claimed that was the case, or where BW, VDP, or anyone mentions that was the case at the time.

How do I define "supportive"? It's tough to quantify, but I'd say openly enthusiastic, verbalizing feelings in a positive way, etc. during the creation of the song, in a way that was beneficial toward the project. Brian would be the one to make that call, of course. I think, specifically, that Brian wanted to feel that he was sonically headed in the right direction, and that people very specifically believed in him - that would have been the support that he'd have wanted. Hell, he dropped hints all throughout Pet Sounds to get people in his life (and band, methinks) to let them know how *much* he valued and truly needed that support. Who knows, maybe Mike did some of those things for Wonderful at the time. But I also think that if such had happened (of any noteworthy value) that BW himself too would remember that and would have mentioned that at some point in the intervening years. Meaningful support (as defined by the recipient of said support) would in all likelihood have stood out. Just IMO.

Well put, CD, even though I disagree in part. And let's not forget people's personal taste can simply change over 50 years as well....

We do know The Beach Boys performed Wonderful in concert in the early 70's with Mike introducing it as a song they did from an album called SMILE which should be out sometime soon, blah blah.....

I would strongly consider this fact evidence that Mike and the rest of The Beach Boys had nothing but appreciation for the song.... I mean, that's pretty strong evidence on it's own.

Once again, you're reading a great deal of personal inflection into your imaginations of things that might or might not have gone on behind closed doors. But when you look at what we do know: there is no record of Mike having any trouble with Brian regarding this particular song ..... ever ..... Mike has expressed appreciation for it in recent years, and himself and The Beach Boys performed the song with tremendous skill back in 72 or whatever and performed the song in an arrangement (the whole "Bill" part excluded) resembling it's SMILE incarnation much more than it's Smiley counterpart ...... Not exactly evidence that Mike has some problem with the song or put up some sort of battle against it in 67.

And to suppose the Beach Boys didn't believe in Brian flies in the face of just about everything we know about the group as a whole! .... My guess, is they put all the faith in the world in him and supported him 100% but would then get frustrated with this or that, grumble, and then go back to supporting him and then back to grumbling: much like any band ..... Let's not forget that Brian was in a leadership position. If he was seen to be slipping from this position when so much was riding on the group (was VDP or Brian's friends that we keep hearing about going to take any sort of a hit if things went south?) then this would doubtlessly lead to a certain amount of panic/tension .... and in moments of panic and tension shite happens! To try and assign blame here, even on Brian, strikes me as quite cruel.

Yeah, you may have a point there... but at the same time, I look at lots of the BBs actions/motivations in the several years post-SMiLE as being an effort to both salvage what they could of the project and its "lore" (even in a live setting), as well as (mainly Mike) privately realizing that maybe some of the things he might have criticized or had doubts about earlier might in fact have been not worthy of that doubt in hindsight. I dunno. I think it's a combination of this, and what you pointed out in your post.

But the ultimate thing to realize is: even if Mike in his mind thought that Wonderful was totally kick-ass and really a step in the right direction at the time of SMiLE, I doubt that he'd have ever communicated the positivity in a way that Brian would have wanted to hear it - because at heart, Mike didn't seem to approve of the whole methods/ways that the album was being recorded (particularly involving drugs, but one could also argue the jealously thing too). So that support which Brian wanted for his new (and recently proven) way of recording (support which, granted, may have been desired to an "unreasonable" degree of unconditionality, but at the same time IMO was deserved to that degree if for no other reason than his utterly ridiculous track record) was probably never gonna happen because there was just too much simultaneous finger wagging aimed at the method to his madness.

"In his heart"?

You're really losing sight here between an individual not yourself named Mike Love and your imaginary idea of the inner-workings of his mind and soul.

Well, actually, I said "at heart", but we're splitting hairs here

I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Mike didn't like the methods of how SMiLE music was being made, generally speaking. I'm talking about not the music itself, just the methods. The methods included drugs, various experimentation (lots of it), a cowriter not named Mike Love, etc. This is IMO based on what I've read - I think to say otherwise flies in the face of lots of opposing evidence. Can I understand why he didn't exactly love these methods? Yeah, more or less.  All of these were things that ran against the "proven" way of making hits with his cousin that Mike had grown to love, desire, and expect. Plus with the modular technique - it was a whole new world, so yeah - to suggest he *didn't* have issues (and likely often times major issues) with the methods seems to border on an absurd assumption, at least in my mind.  

Issues with drugs? sure! Mike has admitted such. Co-writers? Did he really have huge issues with Gary Usher, Roger Christian etc etc? Modular approach? Why on earth would he have problems with that approach when they'd just scored an earth shattering hit with such a method?  I don't think it would have occurred to Mike to have a single issue with anything Brian was doing MUSICALLY other then his losing sight and not finishing things.... And let's not pretend that making having an opinion into "having an issue" when convenient is not a tad bit cheap.

[CenturyDeprived]

One of the only songs Mike supported was "Wonderful". Guess what happened? Brian never got satisfied with it and kept re-recording it with no progress at all (I suspect the same happened in that Surf's Up sweetening session). Brian was trying to record a perfect album and was unable to do it, with or without Mike Love support

That's an interesting theory about "Wonderful", but while we do know that latter-day Mike has talked about liking the song, we don't really know if there was an isolated bubble of support for that song at the time from Mike. Maybe there was support, but maybe "support" simply meant not having lyrics questioned. While I agree that Brian's own perfectionism was certainly a big factor, I'm just saying that I don't take Mike's current feelings on that song as evidence of anything, one way or another.

Why would you refuse to take one's latter day admiration of a song as even a shred of evidence that this same person might have indeed liked the song then?

A bit silly, right?

All we know is that Mike asked what a couple lines meant for an entirely different song: not what ALL the lyrics meant to every song.

I honestly think that if Mike had really liked the song at the time, and was *supportive* of the song at the time, that he'd not be shy of mentioning that fact years later, don't you think? Unless I've missed something where he claimed that was the case, or where BW, VDP, or anyone mentions that was the case at the time.

How do I define "supportive"? It's tough to quantify, but I'd say openly enthusiastic, verbalizing feelings in a positive way, etc. during the creation of the song, in a way that was beneficial toward the project. Brian would be the one to make that call, of course. I think, specifically, that Brian wanted to feel that he was sonically headed in the right direction, and that people very specifically believed in him - that would have been the support that he'd have wanted. Hell, he dropped hints all throughout Pet Sounds to get people in his life (and band, methinks) to let them know how *much* he valued and truly needed that support. Who knows, maybe Mike did some of those things for Wonderful at the time. But I also think that if such had happened (of any noteworthy value) that BW himself too would remember that and would have mentioned that at some point in the intervening years. Meaningful support (as defined by the recipient of said support) would in all likelihood have stood out. Just IMO.

Well put, CD, even though I disagree in part. And let's not forget people's personal taste can simply change over 50 years as well....

We do know The Beach Boys performed Wonderful in concert in the early 70's with Mike introducing it as a song they did from an album called SMILE which should be out sometime soon, blah blah.....

I would strongly consider this fact evidence that Mike and the rest of The Beach Boys had nothing but appreciation for the song.... I mean, that's pretty strong evidence on it's own.

Once again, you're reading a great deal of personal inflection into your imaginations of things that might or might not have gone on behind closed doors. But when you look at what we do know: there is no record of Mike having any trouble with Brian regarding this particular song ..... ever ..... Mike has expressed appreciation for it in recent years, and himself and The Beach Boys performed the song with tremendous skill back in 72 or whatever and performed the song in an arrangement (the whole "Bill" part excluded) resembling it's SMILE incarnation much more than it's Smiley counterpart ...... Not exactly evidence that Mike has some problem with the song or put up some sort of battle against it in 67.

And to suppose the Beach Boys didn't believe in Brian flies in the face of just about everything we know about the group as a whole! .... My guess, is they put all the faith in the world in him and supported him 100% but would then get frustrated with this or that, grumble, and then go back to supporting him and then back to grumbling: much like any band ..... Let's not forget that Brian was in a leadership position. If he was seen to be slipping from this position when so much was riding on the group (was VDP or Brian's friends that we keep hearing about going to take any sort of a hit if things went south?) then this would doubtlessly lead to a certain amount of panic/tension .... and in moments of panic and tension shite happens! To try and assign blame here, even on Brian, strikes me as quite cruel.

Yeah, you may have a point there... but at the same time, I look at lots of the BBs actions/motivations in the several years post-SMiLE as being an effort to both salvage what they could of the project and its "lore" (even in a live setting), as well as (mainly Mike) privately realizing that maybe some of the things he might have criticized or had doubts about earlier might in fact have been not worthy of that doubt in hindsight. I dunno. I think it's a combination of this, and what you pointed out in your post.

But the ultimate thing to realize is: even if Mike in his mind thought that Wonderful was totally kick-ass and really a step in the right direction at the time of SMiLE, I doubt that he'd have ever communicated the positivity in a way that Brian would have wanted to hear it - because at heart, Mike didn't seem to approve of the whole methods/ways that the album was being recorded (particularly involving drugs, but one could also argue the jealously thing too). So that support which Brian wanted for his new (and recently proven) way of recording (support which, granted, may have been desired to an "unreasonable" degree of unconditionality, but at the same time IMO was deserved to that degree if for no other reason than his utterly ridiculous track record) was probably never gonna happen because there was just too much simultaneous finger wagging aimed at the method to his madness.

"In his heart"?

You're really losing sight here between an individual not yourself named Mike Love and your imaginary idea of the inner-workings of his mind and soul.

Well, actually, I said "at heart", but we're splitting hairs here

I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Mike didn't like the methods of how SMiLE music was being made, generally speaking. I'm talking about not the music itself, just the methods. The methods included drugs, various experimentation (lots of it), a cowriter not named Mike Love, etc. This is IMO based on what I've read - I think to say otherwise flies in the face of lots of opposing evidence. Can I understand why he didn't exactly love these methods? Yeah, more or less.  All of these were things that ran against the "proven" way of making hits with his cousin that Mike had grown to love, desire, and expect. Plus with the modular technique - it was a whole new world, so yeah - to suggest he *didn't* have issues (and likely often times major issues) with the methods seems to border on an absurd assumption, at least in my mind.  

Issues with drugs? sure! Mike has admitted such. Co-writers? Did he really have huge issues with Gary Usher, Roger Christian etc etc? Modular approach? Why on earth would he have problems with that approach when they'd just scored an earth shattering hit with such a method?  I don't think it would have occurred to Mike to have a single issue with anything Brian was doing MUSICALLY other then his losing sight and not finishing things.... And let's not pretend that making having an opinion into "having an issue" when convenient is not a tad bit cheap.

Well, the modular approach as it applied to recording GV was different for a couple reasons: for one, Mike was more involved on GV, compared with SMiLE where his feeling more in the dark probably made the whole process more worthy of questioning... and two, the whole album being done this way was much more challenging, obviously. Let's just say that the *combination* of so many not-the-norm factors when compared to the BB tried-and-true hitmaking machine was surely offputting to Mike.

And VDP being a cowriter in and of itself may not have been the "end of the world", but it was compounded by coming on the heels of Asher, Mike's perceived non-appreciation for his lyrics to GV, and the repeated broken promise of being the main cowriter again. Not to mention that VDP's personality and role in the project was unique, and is an apples/oranges thing to compare Mike's feelings for him versus Usher, Christian, etc. None of those guys had nearly as much influence as VDP, especially over an entire pivotal project. Truthfully, I think that Mike probably always had issues (in and of itself) with other cowriters to some extent (out of probable jealousy - I think that at least a somewhat hostile vibe from Mike was mentioned by various other collaborators, correct me if I'm wrong?) - but that with VDP, he had many reasons to "legitimize" not being thrilled with the collaborator aspect - namely the drugs/hangers on that came with it this time around, plus the lyric questions. There wasn't much to "legitimately" grumble about with past collaborators by comparison, even if there may have been an underlying tension nonetheless.

Much in the same way that I believe Brian succumbed to trash the project due to a cumulative effect of too many pressures/difficulties/doubts/resistance, I also believe that Mike (and the Boys, but especially Mike) was experiencing a cumulative effect of the many unusual factors in this project which caused a less than supportive vibe to permeate in the air. Again - I can understand how this happened to an extent.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'd say all of that is certainly possible.

Good enough for me.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Also...Mike wasn't credited on a lot of songs he cowrote back then, so he probably felt dicked over a bit.

On a different subject... how different would this board be if Smile had come out back then?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Also...Mike wasn't credited on a lot of songs he cowrote back then, so he probably felt dicked over a bit.

On a different subject... how different would this board be if Smile had come out back then?

Oh, we'd probably just have countless threads and Bible length posts about what part Mike played in SMILE almost NOT being released.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Nah...we would've heard rumors about a mystical lost album called Wild Honey...a supposed back to roots album to be filmed on a rooftop that gets scrapped when Brian quits and records a solo album in Al's barn.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Nah...we would've heard rumors about a mystical lost album called Wild Honey...a supposed back to roots album to be filmed on a rooftop that gets scrapped when Brian quits and records a solo album in Al's barn.

And Mike would have quit the band after Al asked him what the lyrics to "A Thing Or Two" were trying to imply!

[Ron]

If SMiLE would have came out, we'd talk about it like we talk about the Beatle's White Album, or so.  An album with some peculiar recording circumstances... and a good album... but it wouldn't be anything without the mystique of being shelved all those years.  It'd be appreciated and respected, maybe even loved, but the story of SMiLE is in the 40 year wait.

So, basically, Mike making Brian shelf the album made the album 100 times better.

Mike made SMiLE 100 times better.

[CenturyDeprived]

Nah...we would've heard rumors about a mystical lost album called Wild Honey...a supposed back to roots album to be filmed on a rooftop that gets scrapped when Brian quits and records a solo album in Al's barn.

And Mike would have quit the band after Al asked him what the lyrics to "A Thing Or Two" were trying to imply!

I know we're all joking here, but I honestly can't see *any* alternate history scenario where Mike quits the band (ever ever)... I think hell would have frozen over first!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Nah...we would've heard rumors about a mystical lost album called Wild Honey...a supposed back to roots album to be filmed on a rooftop that gets scrapped when Brian quits and records a solo album in Al's barn.

And Mike would have quit the band after Al asked him what the lyrics to "A Thing Or Two" were trying to imply!

I know we're all joking here, but I honestly can't see *any* alternate history scenario where Mike quits the band (ever ever)... I think hell would have frozen over first!

Oh, but he'd be back after his orange juice jug incident, and just in time for "Endless Summer In Paradise" 

[guitarfool2002]

In all the analysis on this last page, specifically on the "musical" aspect, there is one major factor which is being ignored on both sides of the discussion. It was an issue that encapsulated everything from Pet Sounds, to the band's press strategy at the time (1966-67), to a simple case of Dennis complaining to Van Dyke Parks about a related issue after coming back from a tour, all the way down to the fanzines and their fan letters in the wake of Pet Sounds. And the staggering figure was something that came up in the Williams "Wild Honey" interview, where Paul said the Beach Boys at the time Wild Honey was new had only charted two big hit singles in the previous two years. We can fact-check that, probably argue it, but in a broad sense it's true.

Get to the issue behind each of those, and see how it factored into the whole scene, along with who was involved. The issue heated up considerably at the time of Pet Sounds, and continued to rage throughout 1967.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And?

I wish you would for once just spell out in plain English what point you are trying to prove!

It's ok to wear it on your sleeve.

Doing a bunch of research is respectable but no one's required to stand back and applaud if it doesn't boil down to or present a clear case which reasonably negates a standing opinion.  This whole business is not simply a matter or fact checking but rather, do the facts as we know it remove any/all empathy for the people involved against our own better instincts? This is something you can't PROVE or force on anyone under weight of facts.

[guitarfool2002]

And?

I wish you would for once just spell out in plain English what point you are trying to prove!

It's ok to wear it on your sleeve.

Doing a bunch of research is respectable but no one's required to stand back and applaud if it doesn't boil down to or present a clear case which reasonably negates a standing opinion.  This whole business is not simply a matter or fact checking but rather, do the facts as we know it remove any/all empathy for the people involved against our own better instincts? This is something you can't PROVE or force on anyone under weight of facts.

I don't know what the f*** you're talking about, and I've been more than patient as you've trolled these threads and discussions trying to undermine, insult, disrupt, and everything else to the point of putting meanings behind my posts and my whole Smile researching/writing deal in general, trying to tell me what I'm *really* getting at as if you know better, and posting all kinds of stuff that goes more towards fanning flames of argument instead of adding or contributing to the discussion.

It ends here. I'm done, the "ignore" button is in full effect. If anyone else wants one, I think a supply of ignore buttons are listed on Ebay for 99 cents a pop. Get 'em while they last.

This whole thing is as ridiculous as anything I've seen on this board, and this hangup on trying to pin whatever negative meaning you want to suggest on someone posting here, to the point of veiled insults and questioning the point of even discussing this stuff is just bat-sh*t crazy.

And I refuse to partake in it. If you don't want to deal with bat sh*t, don't go in the cave.

And if you don't want to read what I write or think about Smile or anything else, simple advice: DON'T READ IT.

Just stop bothering people who are discussing it short of actually adding something interesting.

Do what you want.

Best 99 cents I ever spent.

A "sorry" for all of that goes to those who actually come here to discuss and read, I reached my limit.

Good day. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And?

I wish you would for once just spell out in plain English what point you are trying to prove!

It's ok to wear it on your sleeve.

Doing a bunch of research is respectable but no one's required to stand back and applaud if it doesn't boil down to or present a clear case which reasonably negates a standing opinion.  This whole business is not simply a matter or fact checking but rather, do the facts as we know it remove any/all empathy for the people involved against our own better instincts? This is something you can't PROVE or force on anyone under weight of facts.

I don't know what the f*** you're talking about, and I've been more than patient as you've trolled these threads and discussions trying to undermine, insult, disrupt, and everything else to the point of putting meanings behind my posts and my whole Smile researching/writing deal in general, trying to tell me what I'm *really* getting at as if you know better, and posting all kinds of stuff that goes more towards fanning flames of argument instead of adding or contributing to the discussion.

It ends here. I'm done, the "ignore" button is in full effect. If anyone else wants one, I think a supply of ignore buttons are listed on Ebay for 99 cents a pop. Get 'em while they last.

This whole thing is as ridiculous as anything I've seen on this board, and this hangup on trying to pin whatever negative meaning you want to suggest on someone posting here, to the point of veiled insults and questioning the point of even discussing this stuff is just bat-sh*t crazy.

And I refuse to partake in it. If you don't want to deal with bat sh*t, don't go in the cave.

And if you don't want to read what I write or think about Smile or anything else, simple advice: DON'T READ IT.

Just stop bothering people who are discussing it short of actually adding something interesting.

Do what you want.

Best 99 cents I ever spent.

A "sorry" for all of that goes to those who actually come here to discuss and read, I reached my limit.

Good day.  

I'm really just asking some fair questions .......

If you don't want to have to deal with questions, don't pretend to wish to discuss.....

And asking you what the meaning is behind your line of discussion is not implying something negative.... The negative is in exploding and insulting the person asking the question rather than providing an answer...

You don't own myself or anyone answers, I understand, but I can still ask. And I am not asking what the point is in discussing, though THAT question is obvious, and you know it ..... I am simply asking where your line of reasoning takes us. What the desired result might be. Because at this point it's more than a bit foggy...... At some point a case has to be handed over to a jury, ya know?

You think you're the only one this stuff matters to or that if it matters to anyone they just MUST share your point of view?

You talk about your SMILE "research/writing deal" ...... which I respect, but you have to accept that you are presenting this material on an open message board where fans as passionate as you (God forbid) are free to join in on the "discussion" ...... If this is not acceptable to you and you think you can write it off as "trolling" when it suits you: again I suggest you do what people like David Leaf and Dominic Priore have done and write a book! Make your grand statement! I would certainly buy a copy if you'd let me...... And stop using that worn out tactic of accusing people of providing nothing to the discussion when you disagree...... Mentioning and cataloging interviews is not much in the way of discussion, BTW. Making a statement is not discussion. Making a statement and then going apeshit when someone dares call any of it into question, is not discussion .....