I think I can understand why Brian might not wanna write much with Mike...

[Jim V.]

And thank you rocknroll.

Honestly Cam, I know everybody has their faults. Brian, Mike, me, you, Phil Cohen. Everybody. But you just always seem to have defend Mike for some reason and it's just odd.

Also, I didn't bring up the fact that along with the lawsuit he also sued because of Brian's solo release of SMiLE. Couldn't just live with the fact that Brian succeeded on his own with something. Had to rain on that parade juuuuuust a little bit. Same way he sh*t's on That's Why God Made The Radio's number three chart placing. Although I get this odd feeling that if something by Mike Love without Brian Wilson went to number three , Mike would not stop bragging about it. Quite sad really.

[Nicko1234]

And thank you rocknroll.

Honestly Cam, I know everybody has their faults. Brian, Mike, me, you, Phil Cohen. Everybody. But you just always seem to have defend Mike for some reason and it's just odd.

As an observer can I say that it`s even more odd that you are so obsessed with his opinion. You demanded that he stated something negative about Mike and he did in saying that Mike`s second lawsuit was a mistake (which it obviously was as the judge agreed). Now you are saying that isn`t enough.

Maybe it`s time you moved onto OSD and try to get him to make one positive comment about Mike. 

[Jim V.]

And thank you rocknroll.

Honestly Cam, I know everybody has their faults. Brian, Mike, me, you, Phil Cohen. Everybody. But you just always seem to have defend Mike for some reason and it's just odd.

As an observer can I say that it`s even more odd that you are so obsessed with his opinion. You demanded that he stated something negative about Mike and he did in saying that Mike`s second lawsuit was a mistake (which it obviously was as the judge agreed). Now you are saying that isn`t enough.

Maybe it`s time you moved onto OSD and try to get him to make one positive comment about Mike. 

Honestly the reason I was trying to do that to Cam, is just to see if people can really be as objective as they claim. For instance, if I'm talking politics and a Republican cannot think of one good thing the Democrats have done then their opinion is obviously so incredibly biased that they are ridiculous. Same with a Democrat who can't acknowledge one good thing about the Republicans. And this board seems to be the same way. There are people that will go to any length to defend Brian and at the same time those who will make excuses for anything Mike has done.

[Nicko1234]

Honestly the reason I was trying to do that to Cam, is just to see if people can really be as objective as they claim. For instance, if I'm talking politics and a Republican cannot think of one good thing the Democrats have done then their opinion is obviously so incredibly biased that they are ridiculous. Same with a Democrat who can't acknowledge one good thing about the Republicans. And this board seems to be the same way. There are people that will go to any length to defend Brian and at the same time those who will make excuses for anything Mike has done.

But as he acknowledged Mike`s mistake on this issue, maybe it is time to move on.

[Cam Mott]

Well, there isn't enough real and imaginary criticizing of Mike while breezing over, ignoring, or excusing the rest of the band's faults on this board so hoorah for us we pinched off another one.

[Quzi]

The worst of Mike's detractors cherry pick his contributions from a period that was dire for most musicians from the sixties, Brian often included. The fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, he did a lot more than the hook to"Kokomo", contributions that extend beyond what most people are willing to admit. I posted this example of a festival setlist where each song has a degree of involvement from the guy and you know what? It'd be an original set stronger than what 90% of bands out there could ever dream of putting together.

1. Do it Again
2. I'm Waiting for the Day
3. All I Wanna Do
4. Darlin'
5. I Get Around
6. Let Us Go On This Way
7. Big Sur
8. The Warmth of the Sun
9. Let Him Run Wild
10. Surfin' Safari
11. Aren't You Glad?
12. Kiss Me, Baby
13. Cool, Cool Water

14. Meant For You
15. California Girls
16. Wild Honey
17. Had to Phone Ya
18. Only With You
19. The Girl from New York City
20. She Knows Me too Well
21. Goin' On
22. Please Let Me Wonder
23. Let the Wind Blow
24. Here Comes the Night
25. Fun, Fun, Fun
26. Good Vibrations

Looking at some of the above tracks up there, I'd say it's totally valid to say Mike was Brian's McCartney at times and I'd really like to see what they could do together again. That's Why God Made the Radio didn't really give us a solid indication of what could transpire considering Brian requested lyrics in a style which Mike's critics would automatically deride. Didn't he have a really limited schedule to write his lyrics as well? I get he dictated "Good Vibrations" on the way to the studio in '66, but you can't expect that sort of miracle 45 years down the road...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Looking at some of the above tracks up there, I'd say it's totally valid to say Mike was Brian's McCartney at times

You seem really unclear on what McCartney's role was in The Beatles.

[drbeachboy]

Looking at some of the above tracks up there, I'd say it's totally valid to say Mike was Brian's McCartney at times

You seem really unclear on what McCartney's role was in The Beatles.

I agree, Lennon/McCartney is a bad comparison. Maybe more of a Bacharach/David or any partnership where there was a clear composer and lyricist.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The worst of Mike's detractors cherry pick his contributions from a period that was dire for most musicians from the sixties, Brian often included. The fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, he did a lot more than the hook to"Kokomo", contributions that extend beyond what most people are willing to admit. I posted this example of a festival setlist where each song has a degree of involvement from the guy and you know what? It'd be an original set stronger than what 90% of bands out there could ever dream of putting together.

1. Do it Again
2. I'm Waiting for the Day
3. All I Wanna Do
4. Darlin'
5. I Get Around
6. Let Us Go On This Way
7. Big Sur
8. The Warmth of the Sun
9. Let Him Run Wild
10. Surfin' Safari
11. Aren't You Glad?
12. Kiss Me, Baby
13. Cool, Cool Water

14. Meant For You
15. California Girls
16. Wild Honey
17. Had to Phone Ya
18. Only With You
19. The Girl from New York City
20. She Knows Me too Well
21. Goin' On
22. Please Let Me Wonder
23. Let the Wind Blow
24. Here Comes the Night
25. Fun, Fun, Fun
26. Good Vibrations

Looking at some of the above tracks up there, I'd say it's totally valid to say Mike was Brian's McCartney at times and I'd really like to see what they could do together again. That's Why God Made the Radio didn't really give us a solid indication of what could transpire considering Brian requested lyrics in a style which Mike's critics would automatically deride. Didn't he have a really limited schedule to write his lyrics as well? I get he dictated "Good Vibrations" on the way to the studio in '66, but you can't expect that sort of miracle 45 years down the road...

Encore:
27. It's OK
28. Male Ego
29. Little Saint Nick

Great post, Quzi! When you list all the compositions like that, and there are a few more not on there, it is really eye-opening. It also gives me an idea for a new comp!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Looking at some of the above tracks up there, I'd say it's totally valid to say Mike was Brian's McCartney at times

You seem really unclear on what McCartney's role was in The Beatles.

I agree, Lennon/McCartney is a bad comparison. Maybe more of a Bacharach/David or any partnership where there was a clear composer and lyricist.

Agreed.

[Generation42]

Asher wasn't in the studio when the "goodnight, sleep tight" part was added. It's pretty obviously a studio ad-lib...

Mike's contribution to "Wouldn't it be Nice" is nothing more than an ad-lib.  In my opinion, you are absolutely right about that.

As admittedly cool and apropos a line as "good night/sleep tight" is to WIBN, the song is a wholly-formed and complete entity without Love's one-off, and as he claims this as his only "writing" contribution to the piece, it is in no way deserving of a songwriting credit.  Period.  It just isn't.

While it's a shame it had to come to litigation, personally, I don't blame Mike one bit for asking for what was rightly his.  That said, if I had as many legitimate writing contributions to the Beach Boys canon as Mike Love does, my conscience would never allow me to accept a credit for WIBN, and other than the obvious monetary advantages of having his name attached to the composition, I cannot fathom why he would want to take credit for something he knows he had no hand in creating.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Actually, as good as the Bacharach/David comparison is, the more I think about it, the more difficult it is to compare the Wilson/Love team to other teams in pop music. Bacharach/David does explain nicely the scale in terms of how much each contributed to the overall composition. I do think most would suggest that Bacharach did most of the heavy lifting as far as the song was concerned - yes, David brought good lyrics to the table, but the real strength of the song comes from Bacharach's contributions. Furthermore, Bacharach also arranged and produced a good deal of the music too.

At the same time though, the comparison does not take account of Mike Love's role as a singer and as a frontman. For that, you might have to consider songwriting partnerships like Johnny Marr and Morrissey, John Squire and Ian Brown, or, dare I say it, Keith Richards and Mick Jagger. Yet, at the same time, those comparisons significantly de-value Brian's contributions, since his job in getting the music going (for the reasons I addressed with Bacharach above) was far more difficult than a Marr, a Squire, or a Richards. And I should add that you can't find too many big hits from The Smiths, The Stone Roses, or The Rolling Stones, that don't have a significant writing credit from Morrissey, Brown, or Jagger. And yet, in The Beach Boys, you have Surfer Girl, In My Room, Don't Worry Baby, Wouldn't It Be Nice, Sloop John B., God Only Knows, Heroes and Villains - major, enduring hits of which Mike Love was largely uninvolved in the composition. I don't think many other bands with songwriting partnerships could boast that many enduring hit songs wherein one of the members of the partnership was not involved in the actual song writing. Except, of course, for Lennon/McCartney, but that's a whole other kettle of fish...

[Sheriff John Stone]

Jimmy Van Heusen and Sammy Cahn!

[leggo of my ego]

Mike does real well writing lyrics about Fun, Sun, Surf, Beach, Girl, Boy, Car, Drag, Sleep, G-Nite, Bay-Beh & Kokomo.

And I have enjoyed listening to those since I was a kid.

But as for WIBN he was out-of-bounds -- and that alone is a very good reason Brian should avoid "writing in a room alone" with Michael.

I think the statement was nothing but an attempt at PR anyway, fluff - because he knows good and well its never gonna happen.

[Jim V.]

Looking at some of the above tracks up there, I'd say it's totally valid to say Mike was Brian's McCartney at times

You seem really unclear on what McCartney's role was in The Beatles.

Exactly. Paul McCartney was not John Lennon's lyricist. Lennon/McCartney was a songwriting partnership in which songs came from both sides. Sometimes they were written nose-to-nose, sometimes it'd be Lennon's mostly with an assist from McCartney, sometimes McCartney's mostly with an assist from Lennon. And then sometimes it might just be one or the others. For instance, "Yesterday" and "Hey Jude" are Paul's babies. Lennon is listed as co-writer just because that's how John and Paul wanted it.

Compare this to Wilson/Love. In this "partnership" the music always came from Brian. It just did. Mike "played" sax (more like two notes), but otherwise he did not have any instrumental skill. So Brian would come in with music and a melody and sometimes even a great deal of lyrics. Or if not lyrics, a topic he wanted to write about. So while Mike surely deserves credit for his lyrics, he was by and large not a melodicist. And even the one he always cites, "Good Vibrations", he just took the bass line and did the business with that one. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure "round, round, get around, I get around" was his, so anybody that comes up with that is cool in my book.

But my point is, if we are gonna compare Mike to anybody, it'd be somebody like Bernie Taupin, Elton John's lyricist. But to compare him to Lennon/McCartney, Jagger/Richards, or a whole bunch of others just doesn't make sense.

[Nicko1234]

I seriously don`t think Mike was literally comparing what he did and what McCartney did. His point imo was just that while one member of a group may be lauded, it doesn`t mean that another member can`t have made a serious contribution as well.

[oldsurferdude]

And thank you rocknroll.

Honestly Cam, I know everybody has their faults. Brian, Mike, me, you, Phil Cohen. Everybody. But you just always seem to have defend Mike for some reason and it's just odd.

Also, I didn't bring up the fact that along with the lawsuit he also sued because of Brian's solo release of SMiLE. Couldn't just live with the fact that Brian succeeded on his own with something. Had to rain on that parade juuuuuust a little bit. Same way he sh*t's on That's Why God Made The Radio's number three chart placing. Although I get this odd feeling that if something by Mike Love without Brian Wilson went to number three , Mike would not stop bragging about it. Quite sad really.

Neither would Mr. Mott.

[Cam Mott]

And thank you rocknroll.

Honestly Cam, I know everybody has their faults. Brian, Mike, me, you, Phil Cohen. Everybody. But you just always seem to have defend Mike for some reason and it's just odd.

Also, I didn't bring up the fact that along with the lawsuit he also sued because of Brian's solo release of SMiLE. Couldn't just live with the fact that Brian succeeded on his own with something. Had to rain on that parade juuuuuust a little bit. Same way he sh*t's on That's Why God Made The Radio's number three chart placing. Although I get this odd feeling that if something by Mike Love without Brian Wilson went to number three , Mike would not stop bragging about it. Quite sad really.

Neither would Mr. Mott.

There has to be an anti-oldsurferdude to maintain balance in the Universe.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

[Jim V.]

I seriously don`t think Mike was literally comparing what he did and what McCartney did. His point imo was just that while one member of a group may be lauded, it doesn`t mean that another member can`t have made a serious contribution as well.

Fair enough. But why didn't Carl, or why hasn't Al ever tried to push the fact that they in fact helped a heck of a lot too? Seems that they are/were comfortable with their place in history, whereas Mike seems to feel perpetually wronged.

[Cam Mott]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

First you don't need to be a Mike fan to see what is wrong with most of what is said about Mike. Getting closer to the truth is the balance.

[oldsurferdude]

I seriously don`t think Mike was literally comparing what he did and what McCartney did. His point imo was just that while one member of a group may be lauded, it doesn`t mean that another member can`t have made a serious contribution as well.

Fair enough. But why didn't Carl, or why hasn't Al ever tried to push the fact that they in fact helped a heck of a lot too? Seems that they are/were comfortable with their place in history, whereas Mike seems to feel perpetually wronged.

As is the case of his out of control ego, he has an inferiority complex the size of China.

[Jim V.]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

First you don't need to be a Mike fan to see what is wrong with most of what is said about Mike. Getting closer to the truth is the balance.

But you've excused some pretty horrendous behavior by Mike cam. I don't think that is balance.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

First you don't need to be a Mike fan to see what is wrong with most of what is said about Mike. Getting closer to the truth is the balance.

I disagree. In fact, I think you have made some of the more bizarre comments I have seen on this board, particularly in that thread about who had control of the band. It wasn't surprising when people started to wonder whether or not you were actually putting people on. I've had several exchanges with people on this board when I attribute views to Love and the first response is typically, "You're just a Mike-hater because Mike never said that." When I provide the quotation to show that Mike, in fact, did say that, the response is typically, "You're just a Mike-hater because Mike said that 10 years ago and you can't hold him to one comment from 10 years ago." When I then show several quotations that show that the comment from 10 years ago is fairly consistent with many of his comments over a large range of years, the response is, "OK, but Dennis. But Keith Moon. But John Lennon." There is absolutely something wrong here if that is the nature of these discussions. I should actually make a sidenote and say these are the most grounded exchanges. The ones that truly leave me awestruck are when I provide the quotation from Mike and the response is to say, "Well, he's not actually saying that. What he's really saying is..." It's a real exercise in delusion that I don't witness with any other public figure outside of the political realm.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

All of the Mike haters

The single most irritating word on this board. A convenient way to lump all those who disagree with you into a mindless group, whilst single-handedly making any valid arguments they may have appear vapid and unreasonable.

Mods, can we arrange for those who use this word to be publically flogged or something? It really is most annoying

It wasn't meant as an insult to anybody in particular here. It was just an easy way to refer to some Beach Boys "fans" who, well, truly hate the man. There are certain people who take their dislike of Mike way to far. Like oldsurferdude. That kind of "dislike"(I guess I can't say hate, huh?) of a person is unhealthy. The phrase "Mike haters" wasn't meant for you, Pinder, or anybody else taking part in this thread at the moment. I apologize if you took it the wrong way.

I was teasing you Jay. If I saw you being flogged I'd be first in line to try and stop 'em !