I think I can understand why Brian might not wanna write much with Mike...

[Sheriff John Stone]

So what I think Brian looks for in a collaborator these days (and pretty much since Tony Asher) is somebody who knows how to make music, someone he can bounce ideas off. People like the aforementioned Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, Tandyn Almer, Andy Paley, and yes, even Joe Thomas. So yeah, sometimes he's used just lyric writers, but usually I think he's looking for more.

Before I get to my main point.... I think you're putting to much weight on that rather brief 1980 clip, which was a staged songwriting "example" of how Brian and Mike work. It was more for entertainment value than informational purposes. If we start assuming too much from staged clips like this, we'll have to dismiss most of the Beautiful Dreamer documentary (which I've already done anyway).

What does Brian look for in a collaborator today and why doesn't Mike fit that description? To me it's simple and I don't care how many people it offends. For a long, long time, but especially in his solo career, I think it is important for Brian to collaborate with people who are going to - not just help him start or finish a song - but write, arrange, and produce a large part of the song.

In Brian's heyday, there was a clear cut distinction. Brian was responsible for the music, and the lyricists were responsible for the concepts and words. Of course it wasn't always absolute, and of course Brian's early collaborators offered the occasional riff, melody, or arrangement. But, overall - largely overall - Brian's collaborators were mainly lyricists. Mike Love, Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley did not write much music. The stories are legendary how Brian would have ideas WHEN he came into the studio, he had the WHOLE song in his head, he TAUGHT the musicians certain parts; he was in charge, in control, the driving force. The lyricists wrote words.

I think that writing concept and the percentage of what Brian wrote and what his collaborators wrote gradually changed. Take "Sweet Mountain" for example. That was David Sandler's song, but Brian got/gets most of the credit for it. How much of "Sail On Sailor" did Brian write, arrange, or produce? Moving ahead to Brian's solo career, and starting specifically with his 1988 solo album, there are collaborators and producers and lyricists all over the place. Why?

Well, I already theorized why. And, because of that, Brian's needs more from a collaborator than Mike Love has to offer. Sure, as has been stated ad nauseum, Mike Love isn't a musician, producer, arranger; some would even go as far as saying that Mike isn't even an artist. And that finally caught up with Mike in his songwriting relationship with Brian because Brian needs more from a collaborator. Much more. Much more than lyrics. He needs collaborators to write parts of the songs. If Brian and hisdoctorandwifeandmanagers are seeking collaborators to work with Brian - today - Mike Love ain't at the top of that list. Lindsey Buckingham, Jeff Lynne, Andy Paley, Scott Bennett, Jim Peterik, Joe Thomas, and Jeff Beck were. They wrote music.

Sad but I believe you're right. What do you believe contributed mostly to this change? Increased severity of mental illness? Drug use? Landy? All of the above?

All of the above, with some emphasis on Landy. I thought Brian retained a lot of "it" - his creativity, his songwriting chops - right up to 1981. But, after Brian re-emerged with/from Landy in 1983, neither he or his creativity was ever the same.

The one theory that I never bought into was the theory that Brian didn't care or wasn't interested or actually tried to sabotage things. I don't think Brian would feel that way about the music he was creating. I think he respects the art too much to not care. I think Brian's songwriting issues are much deeper than that.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well put.

And Sweetdudejim, sorry to get annoying, but I just want to reiterate that there are some genuine Mike fans out there. That's all. Maybe we have awful taste or maybe we just find the yin/yang fascinating. Sorta like if Stanley Kubrick and Ed Wood had to direct movies together or something....

As an aside: I went on a date a few weeks ago with a rather charming woman who was Landy's personal assistant during his Brian years...... Should I go out with her again to get some good dirt?  

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think it's being slightly misinterpreted, in the same way that Carl's facial expressions (when trying to figure out a harmony) were said to be him "making faces at how bad the song is". When Brian asks Mike if he likes the background harmony Mike laughs and says "Yeah! Sure!". I don't think there's anything wrong with this. YES, he could've been a LITTLE more enthusiastic, but I think Mike would've liked anything that Brian came up with, and was excited to get him in on the song. So, it's like he's saying.. "Yeah, of course!".

Here's the footage in question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_3ZlgzFqz8

And I interpret it a third way. When you were a kid did you ever hear a conversation like this:

Kid #1: What's 5 times 4?
Kid #2: That's so easy!
Kid #1: What is it?
Kid #2: 25!
Kid #1: No! It's 20!
Kid #2: Okay, well, whatever.

It seems to me that that's precisely the exchange we are looking at in this clip. Brian has corrected Mike about something and Mike has dealt with being wrong by acting as if now the answer or the question doesn't matter.

[Nicko1234]

Wasn`t Brian interested in writing with Mike for That Lucky Old Sun?

He didn`t want to write in the same room but that isn`t only with Mike. Tony Asher has said that when they wrote songs in the 90s Brian would just send him a tune for him to add words to. Brian doesn`t write songs in the way he used to.

[gfac22]

As an aside: I went on a date a few weeks ago with a rather charming woman who was Landy's personal assistant during his Brian years...... Should I go out with her again to get some good dirt?  

I'd say another date is in order, along with trying to convince her to write a book.

[Smile4ever]

Although I agree with the majority of negativity that surrounds Mike Love, I think this particular incident is blown out of proportion. First of all, when Mike made that comment, I always interpreted it more like "yeah, sure, whatever man. You're the expert in this area not me. Do your thing!" I didn't think it was very condescending. It may have been semi-encouraging. Kind of like Mike deferring to Brian's direction on specific musical ideas.

As others have said, this was also when the band was really tired and working on retread ideas. And Brian wasn't in great physical or mental shape. I agree with criticism of Mike most of the time. But in this instance it seems a little bit overblown.

[Jim V.]

Well put.

And Sweetdudejim, sorry to get annoying, but I just want to reiterate that there are some genuine Mike fans out there. That's all. Maybe we have awful taste or maybe we just find the yin/yang fascinating. Sorta like if Stanley Kubrick and Ed Wood had to direct movies together or something....

As an aside: I went on a date a few weeks ago with a rather charming woman who was Landy's personal assistant during his Brian years...... Should I go out with her again to get some good dirt?  

Nah Pinder, I totally enjoy the back and forth. And I have to say, I am very surprised to hear if there is really anybody that truly enjoys Summer In Paradise. I really am. I'm not making fun at all. I just can't see any self respecting music fan liking it. And this is coming from a guy (me) who actually thinks Still Cruisin' is a pretty good album. The only thing I don't like on it is "Wipe Out". But I really just don't think Mike Love cares one iota about "art" or even just the music, straight up. I almost feel like everything he does is just about further what is his perception of Beach Boys, Inc. I might be totally wrong, but it just seems to me that everything he's done since at least "Kokomo", but maybe as early as KTSA is just about pushing what his one dimensional vision of The Beach Boys. And that's a shame. Because he was a good lyricist. Not one of the best, but very, very good. And now he can't write a lyric without referencing "good vibrations" or having "fun, fun, fun." And that's disappointing to me.

[filledeplage]

Well put.
And Sweetdudejim, sorry to get annoying, but I just want to reiterate that there are some genuine Mike fans out there. That's all. Maybe we have awful taste or maybe we just find the yin/yang fascinating. Sorta like if Stanley Kubrick and Ed Wood had to direct movies together or something....

As an aside: I went on a date a few weeks ago with a rather charming woman who was Landy's personal assistant during his Brian years...... Should I go out with her again to get some good dirt?  

I'm sure the charming woman is very nice, and you aren't specific as to whether Landy's personal assistant was in Brian's presence, but Brian was "in the course of treatment" and that time and information should be privileged and confidential.
Notwithstanding Landy reportedly unscrupulous practices.  Please don't press her for info.  It would fall under doctor-patient relationship.  

[SMiLE Brian]

Mike has spent decades trying to live up to the success of "endless summer". In the process, he has turned himself in a hack and forgotten what made the BBs popular. It was the production and the emotional weight behind the songs, not surfing, the beach, and cars.

[Sheriff John Stone]

And I have to say, I am very surprised to hear if there is really anybody that truly enjoys Summer In Paradise. I really am. I'm not making fun at all. I just can't see any self respecting music fan liking it.

I like every song on Summer In Paradise except "Summer Of Love" and "Surfin". Mike Love Love and Terry Melcher wrote some good songs for that album, and it's one of Carl's best albums vocally. I wish Brian would've contributed 4-5 songs; he wasn't doing much of anything else.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well put.
And Sweetdudejim, sorry to get annoying, but I just want to reiterate that there are some genuine Mike fans out there. That's all. Maybe we have awful taste or maybe we just find the yin/yang fascinating. Sorta like if Stanley Kubrick and Ed Wood had to direct movies together or something....

As an aside: I went on a date a few weeks ago with a rather charming woman who was Landy's personal assistant during his Brian years...... Should I go out with her again to get some good dirt?  

I'm sure the charming woman is very nice, and you aren't specific as to whether Landy's personal assistant was in Brian's presence, but Brian was "in the course of treatment" and that time and information should be privileged and confidential.
Notwithstanding Landy reportedly unscrupulous practices.  Please don't press her for info.  It would fall under doctor-patient relationship.  

yeah, that's what I was thinking and why I didn't press for THOSE kinds of details.... All I really got was that some guy almost ran her off the road during a lunch run once and Landy would not let it go that she should "sue the blankety-blank guy"! .... And that Carl was a sweetheart.

[zachrwolfe]

‍

[Generation42]

So after "Goin' To The Beach" has come out, I decided to have a look at the video from the "Goin' Platinum"  special where Brian and Mike are at the piano working on the song.

Here's what I see in that video:  The guys are in the moment, Brian says "hows 'bout that, Michael Edward?" and Mike says "yeah, sure" in a supportive-enough tone, and then Carl sits in and begins to work out his harmony part.  This is no different from any number of times, for example, my buddy Joe and I have been working out parts for one of our numbers.  The juices get flowing, a good idea is acknowledged, and then you quickly move on, as to keep striking while the iron is hot.

I imagine there could be any number of things keeping these two from writing alone in a room together, but as far as I can tell, what was witnessed in that video just ain't it.

[Gabo]

This is probably a ridiculous thing to ask, but while I realize that Landy did permanent damage to him, is it possible that some of the problems with creativity and with slurring words are actually side-effects of the modern pharmaceuticals Brian is surely prescribed? I'm not suggesting he go off of them since obviously these problems pale in comparison to the effects of his illness that the medication prevents, just wondering.

I take anti-depressants and they have no effect on my creativity. I realize what Brian is on is probably far more potent than why I take, but creativity is linked more to how an individual sees the world, how their brain works, etc. than it is a quantifiable substance that can "dry up." Also, songwriting is most of all a skill  that stays with a person as long as they don't let it go away... If Brian is no longer creative it's more likely because he no longer has a grip on the songwriting process because of his lack of prolific songwriting for the past several decades

[Cam Mott]

You might be loading too much on your interpretation of a single event. Edit: I meant that for jim not pinder. Back to my nap.

This coming from the guy who denied Mike had leadership of the group artistically from during the late '80s and early '90s despite all available evidence. You twist every fact to fit your own agenda. So if I draw my own interpretation of a televised event, I think that's valid. I didn't say it was the truth. However, I think it quite possibly could be part and parcel of the guys relationship leading up to today, and why Brian has no interest in working with somebody who has no real interest in expressing himself, but would rather just see dollar signs.

And despite it all, I think it just needs to be pointed out around here that artistically, especially in the past 30 years, Mike Love has been pathetic. Regardless of playing "Duke of Earl" in concert or what happened with C50, the man spearheaded the most embarrassing music of the bands career. And despite what a great frontman he was/is, or anything else good or bad that has happened, it is his attention to his misguided view of "commerciality" and his view that what the public wants from The Beach Boys studio-wise is nostalgic retreads, without paying attention to the fact that what made the old music great was not just the topic, or even the style, it was talent and the inspiration of the creator(s).

That's not the way I remember it. The question was if Mike had leadership of the band from 1973 through 1998 and it was only shown Mike had a little leadership for mainly/mostly a couple/few years and the rest was conjecture and denial about the leadership the rest of the band had during most of that period.

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to disagree.

[grillo]

This is probably a ridiculous thing to ask, but while I realize that Landy did permanent damage to him, is it possible that some of the problems with creativity and with slurring words are actually side-effects of the modern pharmaceuticals Brian is surely prescribed? I'm not suggesting he go off of them since obviously these problems pale in comparison to the effects of his illness that the medication prevents, just wondering.

I take anti-depressants and they have no effect on my creativity.

Not trying to be mean, but how could you possibly know that? Saying that a drug has no effect on your creativity when what that drug does is alter your brain chemistry (my layman's understanding) is confusing.

[Gabo]

This is probably a ridiculous thing to ask, but while I realize that Landy did permanent damage to him, is it possible that some of the problems with creativity and with slurring words are actually side-effects of the modern pharmaceuticals Brian is surely prescribed? I'm not suggesting he go off of them since obviously these problems pale in comparison to the effects of his illness that the medication prevents, just wondering.

I take anti-depressants and they have no effect on my creativity.

Not trying to be mean, but how could you possibly know that? Saying that a drug has no effect on your creativity when what that drug does is alter your brain chemistry (my layman's understanding) is confusing.

Well I don't know,  but it hasn't stopped me from writing songs. Good ones too.  I doubt psychiatric drugs are ultimately what has stalled Brian's creativity... it's more likely things other things in his life.

[clack]

And I have to say, I am very surprised to hear if there is really anybody that truly enjoys Summer In Paradise. I really am. I'm not making fun at all. I just can't see any self respecting music fan liking it.

I like every song on Summer In Paradise except "Summer Of Love" and "Surfin". Mike Love Love and Terry Melcher wrote some good songs for that album, and it's one of Carl's best albums vocally. I wish Brian would've contributed 4-5 songs; he wasn't doing much of anything else.

3 good songs ("Lahaina Aloha","Island Fever","Strange Things Happen") and 2 ok ones let down by some didactic lyrics (title track, "Still Surfin"). And agreed, the rest of the cuts aren't dreadful either, with the 2 exceptions you've noted. I don't get why this lp is so hated.

But, what I don't also get is :

I thought Brian retained a lot of "it" - his creativity, his songwriting chops - right up to 1981. But, after Brian re-emerged with/from Landy in 1983, neither he or his creativity was ever the same.

I would put Brian's post '81 oeuvre up against his '74-'81 work anyday. Lots of songs better than those written by Love/Melcher, and some songs as good as any he's ever written. He's still got his songwriting chops.

Now, if you were to say that Brian has lost his producing/arranging chops, I would agree. I don't think that has anything to do with Landry or medication though. 'Smile' broke something within him. Up to then he was a producing/arranging genius, afterwards despite some moments of brilliance he's but a shadow of his former self.

[Gabo]

Now, if you were to say that Brian has lost his producing/arranging chops, I would agree. I don't think that has anything to do with Landry or medication though. 'Smile' broke something within him. Up to then he was a producing/arranging genius, afterwards despite some moments of brilliance he's but a shadow of his former self.

I think most of Love You has great arrangements. I hope that's the moment of brilliance you're talking about...

[Doo Dah]

I'm pickin' up Good Vibrations, Sunkist orange flavored taste sensation...

Not that is a great tune (if you ask Mr. Love). In the words of Joe Pesci's character in Casino, "all about the dollars with those guys...all about the dollars."

Hey, I've said it before - Mike has been creatively bank-oh for quite some time, and that in fact is why Brian would rather not work with him. The yin really isn't there for the yang. And if you disagree, then you must think that his pedestrian work on Mike Love Not War is deep stuff. I don't - downloaded it once off of a blog, listened to it a couple times, and then deleted it. Bland-oh.

Having said that, in regards to the video in question, I don't really see any friction there between Brian and Mike. In fact, it seemed a rather pedestrian wood shedding of a tune in progress. Hell, it was positively convivial in the studio that day; have you ever heard studio dialogue between the boys back in the hey day of Summer Days and Today? They used to bust balls constantly. Check out the stuff on the SOT boots. I'm sure that each of them quickly developed a thick layer of skin over the years.

[mikeddonn]

I think in all of this we should remember how long these guys have been making music.  How many great songwriters can still write, or can be bothered writing great music after 50 years?  Brian, in particular has earned the right to relax and enjoy listening to music without any pressure to compose.  Very often, in my own experience, it's easier to write a song when all is not well.  You either write about the problem or write about the solution or 'escape'.  Brian seems content in his private life, therefore might not have much desire to sit and write.  That said, I still think he can come up with catchy tunes and chord progressions if he felt like it.  However, at his age, it's possible he doesn't have the concentration span to see it through.  Hence the reason somebody like Scott Bennett is needed.  Even if Brian had no mental health issues, or had never touched drugs in his life do we still think he would be writing any more than he has over the last few years?

[Justin]

I think in all of this we should remember how long these guys have been making music.  How many great songwriters can still write, or can be bothered writing great music after 50 years?  Brian, in particular has earned the right to relax and enjoy listening to music without any pressure to compose.  Very often, in my own experience, it's easier to write a song when all is not well.  You either write about the problem or write about the solution or 'escape'.  Brian seems content in his private life, therefore might not have much desire to sit and write.  That said, I still think he can come up with catchy tunes and chord progressions if he felt like it.  However, at his age, it's possible he doesn't have the concentration span to see it through.  Hence the reason somebody like Scott Bennett is needed.  Even if Brian had no mental health issues, or had never touched drugs in his life do we still think he would be writing any more than he has over the last few years?

+1

[D409]

Well put.
And Sweetdudejim, sorry to get annoying, but I just want to reiterate that there are some genuine Mike fans out there. That's all. Maybe we have awful taste or maybe we just find the yin/yang fascinating. Sorta like if Stanley Kubrick and Ed Wood had to direct movies together or something....

As an aside: I went on a date a few weeks ago with a rather charming woman who was Landy's personal assistant during his Brian years...... Should I go out with her again to get some good dirt?  

I'm sure the charming woman is very nice, and you aren't specific as to whether Landy's personal assistant was in Brian's presence, but Brian was "in the course of treatment" and that time and information should be privileged and confidential.
Notwithstanding Landy reportedly unscrupulous practices.  Please don't press her for info.  It would fall under doctor-patient relationship.  

yeah, that's what I was thinking and why I didn't press for THOSE kinds of details.... All I really got was that some guy almost ran her off the road during a lunch run once and Landy would not let it go that she should "sue the blankety-blank guy"! .... And that Carl was a sweetheart.

Hell, yeah, another date is in order ! Get all the dirt and report back. As the "good doctor" is no longer with us, he can't sue for any breach of confidentiality....

[JohnMill]

Mike just needs to step up his game a little bit to get Cousin Brian back in the fold.  Check this out:

Bow bow bow bow oop
Ahh ooo oohh waaa oooo

Bow bow bow bow oop
Ahh ooo oohh waaa oooo

The other night I was playing your songs
Hadn't sang them for oh so long (Bruce: Well since last Tuesday anyhow!)
Took me back Brian to those times from afar
When we sang all night about surf and cars

Could we ever get it back
Getcha back Brian
Gonna getcha back getcha back
Getcha back getcha back Brian
Gonna getcha back getcha back
Can I ever getcha back

I'm getting tired of not doing things right
Ending celebrations and starting new fights
And though people come from near and far
To see me with Stamos the movie star
But no matter how many tours we do
Without Cousin Brian the fans are blue
So if you leave Foskett and I leave Totten*
Can we ever get it back again?

Getcha back getcha back Brian
Gonna getcha back getcha back
Getcha back getcha back Brian
Gonna getcha back getcha back
Can I ever getcha back

Bow bow bow oop

Bow bow bow oop

(Getcha back) We'll Go Surfin'
(Getcha back) Making The Scene
(Getcha back) With Good Old Brucie
(Getcha back) And Al Jardine

(Getcha back) Endless Summer
(Getcha back) No More Bummers
(Getcha back) As long as Stamos
(Getcha back) Can still be our drummer

(Getcha back) We'll write some new songs
(Getcha back) the fans will remember
(Getcha back) Good Vibrations
(Getcha back) Until September

* Just innocent rhymes.  I am in now way insinuating that Foskett or Totten caused the C50 to end.  They are both tops in my books.

[EgoHanger1966]

Mike has spent decades trying to live up to the success of "endless summer". In the process, he has turned himself in a hack and forgotten what made the BBs popular. It was the production and the emotional weight behind the songs, not surfing, the beach, and cars.

Actually, it WAS surfing, the beach, and cars that made them popular. In the first place, anyway.