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Author Topic: Unpopular Beach Boys opinions  (Read 119494 times)
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« Reply #1425 on: March 25, 2018, 01:38:42 PM »

Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

What?!?!?    Shocked

You DON'T like Surf's UpBrow

---------------------------
And NOTHING from the Orange Crate Art album?  Not even 1 song?

Nah, I meant nothing aside from the stuff on SMiLE.

As far as OCA... hate the lyrics on there. My Jeanine probably was the worst offender. ďApples were her last nameĒ? Really?!

Iíll admit that I do like the production and arrangements on the album, though.
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« Reply #1426 on: March 25, 2018, 01:42:07 PM »

Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

So you guys don't like Surf's Up? Wonderful? Huh

Just because you don't like VDP lyrics doesn't mean you don't like the song. I don't like his lyrics either but I love all those songs. It's always nice to get good lyrics, but the music is far far more important.

Thatís how I feel. Lyrics usually donít matter to me unless theyíre either extremely good, or extremely bad. .

Hell, Iíll say it. Brian was and is a better lyricist than VDP.
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« Reply #1427 on: March 25, 2018, 02:21:32 PM »

Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

So you guys don't like Surf's Up? Wonderful? Huh

Just because you don't like VDP lyrics doesn't mean you don't like the song. I don't like his lyrics either but I love all those songs. It's always nice to get good lyrics, but the music is far far more important.

Thatís how I feel. Lyrics usually donít matter to me unless theyíre either extremely good, or extremely bad. .

Hell, Iíll say it. Brian was and is a better lyricist than VDP.

Absolutely nuclear bad take over here
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« Reply #1428 on: March 25, 2018, 06:50:23 PM »

Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

So you guys don't like Surf's Up? Wonderful? Huh

Just because you don't like VDP lyrics doesn't mean you don't like the song. I don't like his lyrics either but I love all those songs. It's always nice to get good lyrics, but the music is far far more important.

Thatís how I feel. Lyrics usually donít matter to me unless theyíre either extremely good, or extremely bad. .

Hell, Iíll say it. Brian was and is a better lyricist than VDP.

As was Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Mike Love, and Tony Asher. 
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« Reply #1429 on: March 25, 2018, 06:56:19 PM »

Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

So you guys don't like Surf's Up? Wonderful? Huh

Just because you don't like VDP lyrics doesn't mean you don't like the song. I don't like his lyrics either but I love all those songs. It's always nice to get good lyrics, but the music is far far more important.

Thatís how I feel. Lyrics usually donít matter to me unless theyíre either extremely good, or extremely bad. .

Hell, Iíll say it. Brian was and is a better lyricist than VDP.

As was Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Mike Love, and Tony Asher. 
Agreed.
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« Reply #1430 on: March 25, 2018, 09:36:42 PM »

Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

So you guys don't like Surf's Up? Wonderful? Huh

Just because you don't like VDP lyrics doesn't mean you don't like the song. I don't like his lyrics either but I love all those songs. It's always nice to get good lyrics, but the music is far far more important.

Thatís how I feel. Lyrics usually donít matter to me unless theyíre either extremely good, or extremely bad. .

Hell, Iíll say it. Brian was and is a better lyricist than VDP.

As was Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Mike Love, and Tony Asher. 
You forgot to mention Eugene Landy  LOL
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« Reply #1431 on: March 25, 2018, 11:35:50 PM »

LOL
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« Reply #1432 on: March 26, 2018, 05:59:51 AM »

Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

So you guys don't like Surf's Up? Wonderful? Huh

Just because you don't like VDP lyrics doesn't mean you don't like the song. I don't like his lyrics either but I love all those songs. It's always nice to get good lyrics, but the music is far far more important.

Thatís how I feel. Lyrics usually donít matter to me unless theyíre either extremely good, or extremely bad. .

Hell, Iíll say it. Brian was and is a better lyricist than VDP.

As was Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Mike Love, and Tony Asher. 
You forgot to mention Eugene Landy  LOL

And Joe Thomas.   
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« Reply #1433 on: March 26, 2018, 06:01:02 AM »

Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

So you guys don't like Surf's Up? Wonderful? Huh

Just because you don't like VDP lyrics doesn't mean you don't like the song. I don't like his lyrics either but I love all those songs. It's always nice to get good lyrics, but the music is far far more important.

Thatís how I feel. Lyrics usually donít matter to me unless theyíre either extremely good, or extremely bad. .

Hell, Iíll say it. Brian was and is a better lyricist than VDP.

As was Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Mike Love, and Tony Asher. 
Agreed.

Actually Usher / Christian / Love / Asher > VDP probably isn't even an unpopular opinion based on the popularity of the songs containing those names. 
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« Reply #1434 on: March 26, 2018, 07:12:20 AM »

Popular opinion or not, it goes Brian, Mike, Christian. The rest are good but those three are the tops.
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« Reply #1435 on: March 26, 2018, 07:20:46 AM »

Wait, why exactly are we comparing "Smile" lyrics to early-era lyrics?

If VDP had been a continual collaborator, saddling every album project year-after-year with his lyrical style, then I could easily see annoyance creeping in from fans and spectators in general.

But he added his lyrical stylings to pretty much one single album project. I like some of his lyrics better than others, but I can't fathom how "Surf's Up" would sound with Gary Usher lyrics. I somehow doubt it would work nearly as well. VDP's lyrics fit the music he worked on quite well.

There was even a thread a few years back where I thought a truly compelling argument was made that Mike Love could have furnished good lyrics for the entire "Pet Sounds" album. But does anybody really think Mike or Gary Usher or Roger Christian could have written lyrics to "Look" or "Cabinessence" that resonated or had that same vibe?

The only collaborator outside of Mike that I can even see it being worth the trouble to compare to VDP would be Tony Asher, as he was pretty much the only other writer to write nearly a full single album project with Brian. Other writers like Usher and Christian (and Norberg and Titelman and Berry, etc.) were co-writers on random songs here and there.

I dunno, I've never ONCE felt the compulsion to compare or contrast the lyrics of "Little Deuce Coupe" and "Cabinessence." They're of such a different nature in every way, regardless of who wrote them, that I have never felt the need to say one is better than the other. I also never try to parse where "She Loves You" or "Baby You're a Rich Man" have better lyrics.
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« Reply #1436 on: March 26, 2018, 07:22:42 AM »

Wait, why exactly are we comparing "Smile" lyrics to early-era lyrics?

If VDP had been a continual collaborator, saddling every album project year-after-year with his lyrical style, then I could easily see annoyance creeping in from fans and spectators in general.

But he added his lyrical stylings to pretty much one single album project. I like some of his lyrics better than others, but I can't fathom how "Surf's Up" would sound with Gary Usher lyrics. I somehow doubt it would work nearly as well. VDP's lyrics fit the music he worked on quite well.

There was even a thread a few years back where I thought a truly compelling argument was made that Mike Love could have furnished good lyrics for the entire "Pet Sounds" album. But does anybody really think Mike or Gary Usher or Roger Christian could have written lyrics to "Look" or "Cabinessence" that resonated or had that same vibe?

The only collaborator outside of Mike that I can even see it being worth the trouble to compare to VDP would be Tony Asher, as he was pretty much the only other writer to write nearly a full single album project with Brian. Other writers like Usher and Christian (and Norberg and Titelman and Berry, etc.) were co-writers on random songs here and there.

I dunno, I've never ONCE felt the compulsion to compare or contrast the lyrics of "Little Deuce Coupe" and "Cabinessence." They're of such a different nature in every way, regardless of who wrote them, that I have never felt the need to say one is better than the other. I also never try to parse where "She Loves You" or "Baby You're a Rich Man" have better lyrics.

See: Title of Thread. 
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« Reply #1437 on: March 26, 2018, 11:21:20 AM »

Also, I was referring to VDP in general
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« Reply #1438 on: March 26, 2018, 11:47:12 AM »

Wait, why exactly are we comparing "Smile" lyrics to early-era lyrics?

If VDP had been a continual collaborator, saddling every album project year-after-year with his lyrical style, then I could easily see annoyance creeping in from fans and spectators in general.

But he added his lyrical stylings to pretty much one single album project. I like some of his lyrics better than others, but I can't fathom how "Surf's Up" would sound with Gary Usher lyrics. I somehow doubt it would work nearly as well. VDP's lyrics fit the music he worked on quite well.

There was even a thread a few years back where I thought a truly compelling argument was made that Mike Love could have furnished good lyrics for the entire "Pet Sounds" album. But does anybody really think Mike or Gary Usher or Roger Christian could have written lyrics to "Look" or "Cabinessence" that resonated or had that same vibe?

The only collaborator outside of Mike that I can even see it being worth the trouble to compare to VDP would be Tony Asher, as he was pretty much the only other writer to write nearly a full single album project with Brian. Other writers like Usher and Christian (and Norberg and Titelman and Berry, etc.) were co-writers on random songs here and there.

I dunno, I've never ONCE felt the compulsion to compare or contrast the lyrics of "Little Deuce Coupe" and "Cabinessence." They're of such a different nature in every way, regardless of who wrote them, that I have never felt the need to say one is better than the other. I also never try to parse where "She Loves You" or "Baby You're a Rich Man" have better lyrics.

See: Title of Thread.  


Dude, I've been on this board for 13 years; since its inception, I get how it works. This thread is older than your membership on this board. I'm very familiar with this thread and its title and premise.

I didn't say anybody's opinion was invalid or inappropriate to the thread. I was batting the topic back and forth, and questioning whether certain subjects for comparison seem to make more or less sense to me. Isn't that the point? To discuss? Otherwise, it's just a thread of people vomiting out whatever random thing they like or don't like that's unpopular, followed by no discussion. If anything, these types of threads seem to invite eliciting *more* response, because it's something that, in theory, goes against the typical/normal/popular consensus.

Does the person that thinks the lyrics to "Shut Down" are better than most of "Smile" really NOT want to have a discussion about that? That sure seems like something that's ripe for discussion. Why would someone relay that opinion if they don't want to discuss it?
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« Reply #1439 on: March 26, 2018, 11:55:10 AM »

Wait, why exactly are we comparing "Smile" lyrics to early-era lyrics?

If VDP had been a continual collaborator, saddling every album project year-after-year with his lyrical style, then I could easily see annoyance creeping in from fans and spectators in general.

But he added his lyrical stylings to pretty much one single album project. I like some of his lyrics better than others, but I can't fathom how "Surf's Up" would sound with Gary Usher lyrics. I somehow doubt it would work nearly as well. VDP's lyrics fit the music he worked on quite well.

There was even a thread a few years back where I thought a truly compelling argument was made that Mike Love could have furnished good lyrics for the entire "Pet Sounds" album. But does anybody really think Mike or Gary Usher or Roger Christian could have written lyrics to "Look" or "Cabinessence" that resonated or had that same vibe?

The only collaborator outside of Mike that I can even see it being worth the trouble to compare to VDP would be Tony Asher, as he was pretty much the only other writer to write nearly a full single album project with Brian. Other writers like Usher and Christian (and Norberg and Titelman and Berry, etc.) were co-writers on random songs here and there.

I dunno, I've never ONCE felt the compulsion to compare or contrast the lyrics of "Little Deuce Coupe" and "Cabinessence." They're of such a different nature in every way, regardless of who wrote them, that I have never felt the need to say one is better than the other. I also never try to parse where "She Loves You" or "Baby You're a Rich Man" have better lyrics.

See: Title of Thread.  


Dude, I've been on this board for 13 years; since its inception, I get how it works.

I didn't say anybody's opinion was invalid or inappropriate to the thread. I was batting the topic back and forth, and questioning whether certain subjects for comparison seem to make more or less sense to me. Isn't that the point? To discuss? Otherwise, it's just a thread of people vomiting out whatever random thing they like or don't like that's unpopular, followed by no discussion. If anything, these types of threads seem to invite eliciting *more* response, because it's something that, in theory, goes against the typical/normal/popular consensus.

Does the person that thinks the lyrics to "Shut Down" are better than most of "Smile" really NOT want to have a discussion about that? That sure seems like something that's ripe for discussion. Why would someone relay that opinion if they don't want to discuss it?

Mainly because discussing opinions with you is more you writing long diatribes about why my opinions are wrong than actually having a discussion. 

But, yes, I prefer the early, more relatable lyrics of Roger, Gary, Brian, Mike, and Tony to the more abstract lyrics than Van Dyke provided for Smile. 
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« Reply #1440 on: March 26, 2018, 12:52:08 PM »

For me, I prefer the other lyrics but... for SMiLE they were perfect, and nothing else wouldíve fit. Nobody else wouldíve worked in that role.

That said, I think it wouldíve been a one off. I canít see a Smile pt 2 happening at all. Even if SMiLE had been a huge success sales wise, I think Brian wouldíve wanted to a Wild Honey styled album regardless.
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« Reply #1441 on: March 26, 2018, 01:09:53 PM »

For me, I prefer the other lyrics but... for SMiLE they were perfect, and nothing else wouldíve fit. Nobody else wouldíve worked in that role.

That said, I think it wouldíve been a one off. I canít see a Smile pt 2 happening at all. Even if SMiLE had been a huge success sales wise, I think Brian wouldíve wanted to a Wild Honey styled album regardless.

Most likely.   Especially as Smile / Smiley Smile was such an outlier for The Beach Boys in general.   
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« Reply #1442 on: March 26, 2018, 06:09:04 PM »

.
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« Reply #1443 on: March 28, 2018, 03:56:29 PM »

I suspect the attitude towards Van Dyke changed when he said sth. in his Twitter at Mike's birthday (I didn't catch what he said, maybe that's why didn't find it insulting to Mike). Before it, there too were posters who didn't like his "riddle" speech style but the others liked it/ him. Now it looks like if Van Dyke said sth. to Mike, he fell in people's eyes. Is it right?
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« Reply #1444 on: March 29, 2018, 05:12:41 AM »

I suspect the attitude towards Van Dyke changed when he said sth. in his Twitter at Mike's birthday (I didn't catch what he said, maybe that's why didn't find it insulting to Mike). Before it, there too were posters who didn't like his "riddle" speech style but the others liked it/ him. Now it looks like if Van Dyke said sth. to Mike, he fell in people's eyes. Is it right?

I've never really been a fan of VDP's lyrics since I got into The Beach Boys. 
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« Reply #1445 on: March 29, 2018, 05:36:37 AM »

Honestly speaking I think Mike would have written some great lyrics for SMilE. He proved himself with I'm Waiting for the day, She knows me too well, Warmth of the Sun, She's Going Bald and Good Vibrations was just a poem by the Lovester.

I have always felt Mike was just jealous of Tony Asher & Van Dyke's involvement and thats where the animosity comes from.  He has always stated that he loves the compositions on SMiLE.
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« Reply #1446 on: March 29, 2018, 05:38:07 AM »

Arguments about who is the best lyricist are kind of pointless. In a way, I'd say Brian was the best lyric buy, because he knew who to choose to write 'em. VDP:s lyrics are perfect for Smile, but they would have ruined Pet Sounds or Little Deuce Coupe. Roger Christian was great, great writer, but his car porn wouldn't have worked for Surf's Up, am I rite? An obvious case of apples and oranges. Oranges are harder to eat and taste less great than apples, but then again orange juice is way better and more refreshing than apple juice, if you catch my drift. I don't really.

If I'd had to name one above everyone else I'd say Mike, but I would never want him to have written Smile or Pet Sounds lyrics. Trust Brian, he almost always knew best who to use.
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« Reply #1447 on: March 29, 2018, 07:33:10 AM »

Roger Christian wrote some great non-car lyrics. Check out "A Beginning From An End"
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« Reply #1448 on: March 29, 2018, 08:54:38 AM »

Arguments about who is the best lyricist are kind of pointless. In a way, I'd say Brian was the best lyric buy, because he knew who to choose to write 'em. VDP:s lyrics are perfect for Smile, but they would have ruined Pet Sounds or Little Deuce Coupe. Roger Christian was great, great writer, but his car porn wouldn't have worked for Surf's Up, am I rite? An obvious case of apples and oranges. Oranges are harder to eat and taste less great than apples, but then again orange juice is way better and more refreshing than apple juice, if you catch my drift. I don't really.

If I'd had to name one above everyone else I'd say Mike, but I would never want him to have written Smile or Pet Sounds lyrics. Trust Brian, he almost always knew best who to use.

They ALL had their time and place.  And, for the most part, that time and place came...and went.  Maybe Tony could help him write something meaningful with a contemporary flair.   How 'bout a relationship/love l.p. for us senior's.  Who does that?  Nobody.  Are we still in love?  Ya...many of us are.  What's the perspective on THAT side of the coin?  Brian?  Tony?  [but please...NOT Mike.  We're not going to the beach...or the school parking lot...or "steady" so much these days...and he's stuck there.]

NEW collaborators might be a better route otherwise.  We already had to endure Do It Again 2017.  And that SUCKED!!!
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« Reply #1449 on: March 30, 2018, 06:31:54 AM »

I think VDP added more than just the lyrics to Smile - the whole concept is based on his interests.  Also, I'd say Smile was probably one of the first concept albums and focussed on the concept of American history which later was taken up by many other artists.  The concept of H&V being the sound of a train is one which VDP explored himself in Song Cycle and it's interesting to ponder whether Brian was the catalyst for this or if he had the idea for H&V - though obviously they both got the idea from Gershwin.  I think working closely with someone means you invoke responses to each other's ideas and elaborate on them.  I don't think VDP had more talent than Brian but I do think he brought something to the mix which enabled Brian to excel. I actually like the fact that the lyrics were about something more interesting than love and youth culture.  I also think that the album would probably have pipped Sargent Pepper to the post at being the most original album in a decade and would probably have meant enormous critical success.  It was a complete tragedy that it was not released on time.

The rest is personal preference.  I personally prefer something a bit deeper than lyrics extolling the virtues of cars and so Smile and Brian's own 'Til I Die are personal favourites. I think Brian is a very skilled lyricist himself but choses to work with people to add a different flavour to the work and chooses the person to match the flavour he wants.  Mike wasn't prepared to expand his repertoire so Brian moved on.  Mike was offended by this.  The bottom line is that they had different aims - separating was the only option.
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